The nostalgic power of Gladiators and does publishing have a problem with ghost writers?

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1:20Hello, and welcome to The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Welcome, welcome. How are you, Marina? How are you? Yeah, I'm not bad. I'm okay. A lot to talk about this week. Certainly. Did you catch the new Gladiators? We were going to talk about some different things and then that came along and absolutely smashed the ratings for a number of different reasons. So I think maybe we're going to talk about that and what it means. What it means. The nostalgia, the Saturday night of it. Like we're a pair of King's College professors saying, I wonder, what does Beyonce mean?

1:51We're also going to talk about dead celebrities. celebrities george michael's estate have registered effectively for live performance again which means that there must be contemplating a hologram tour and this is what how it's been widely interpreted so in the sort of vein of abba voyage but with a dead celebrity at the helm of it we'll have a look at that about how much money you can make if you're dead you can i mean it's they do as i say make a great living a lot of money look at van gogh and what else we're going to talk about I read an interesting article about celebrity authors, which I felt you would have something to say about.

2:26And I think that the top 30 big sellers of 2023, the list of that has come out. So we can talk about that as well. We'll combine those two. I shall look forward to that ever so much. But let's start with Gladiators, shall we? Can you feel the power of the Gladiators? I mean, I certainly can. Yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it? Because it was brought back. This is BBC One, yes. BBC One brought it back. Everyone says, oh, why are you rebooting a show? Why are you bringing back Gladiators? This is going to be awful. They're going to butcher it. and from the moment that theme tune starts, my wife Ingrid was virtually in tears with just the memory of Gladiators from the original because they kept the theme tune the same, they kept the format the same, they kept pretty much everything the same and when the ratings came in the next day, 6.4 million, which I think Ian Hyland the great TV critic said, that's about 15 million in old money, you know that's a proper big smash hit and people who started watching it, if you look at the ratings, kept watching it I suspect they'll keep watching it next week as well so we have an enormous hit on our hands and the quest well let's talk about the show first because it was a lot of fun and then we'll talk about why it was quite so successful presented by Bradley Walsh and his son Barney Walsh I think why they've done that I'm not sure it's for Barney Walsh's presenting skills but I think I suppose what they want to say is hey your parents loved this show but now a new generation can also love it so I think that whole father-son thing was a sort of nod to really what the show is in lots of ways, which is a chance for lots of people who watched it as kids and now probably have kids of their own to do the same thing.

3:56In a weird way, actually, Netflix did this once with Adam Sandler. They discovered that all the people who used to go out to movie theatres to watch Adam Sandler movies now had kids and were stuck at home and watch Netflix a lot. And when no one else really wanted Adam Sandler and everyone was passing on his movies, put a huge investment into him because they could see that that algorithm showed that his stuff was really popular. So that kind of nostalgia the sort of aged aged audience has been big for this yeah it really has and the fact that yeah they didn't muck about with it too much so if you're a parent firstly amazing to have something you can watch with your kids but to have that show and to say to your kids oh this is an amazing show i promise and for it then to be an amazing show i think is an incredible treat bradley walsh is a fascinating one so so bradley and barney are a duo anyway they They do a travelogue documentary where Barney essentially makes Bradley do an increasingly extreme series of sports and challenges.

4:52And it's got the title, which is rather a good title, Breaking Dad, which is good. And, you know, they're a great double act on that. And if Bradley Walsh wants to present your show, you let Bradley Walsh present your show because the British public absolutely adore him. The presenting isn't, having said that, of this show, a whole massive amount of it, really. Exactly. And it doesn't need to be, and it isn't. They don't overplay their part too much. We get to the action pretty quickly, in and out with a gag, and then you're straight on to hang tough. But Bradley, he's the best paid man on British television by a mile, mainly because of the extraordinary success of The Chase and Beat the Chasers and all the other variations of that.

5:34He brought that blankety blank to BBC One, which was a huge hit. I thought at the time that's a huge hit until the gladiators' numbers came in, which are a really huge hit. The documentary with Barney is absolutely massive. Whatever Bradley Walsh does turns to gold. What I do miss, though, is the sense... John Fashionew. Well, the sense that one of the presenters might have a sort of fling with one of the gladiators. After Ulrika and that, you know, what was that goofy youngster? Hunter. Hunter she was with. You kind of want that because the Gladiators is a sexed up auditorium. It's like the Olympic Village week two swimmers, right?

6:15You're off competition. You're hopped up on your own glycogen. And I'm telling you, you are going to get through the IOC's supply of 25 ,000 free condoms. That's just what happens, OK? Didn't Grindr crash on the first day of the 2012 Olympics? It's incredible. Yes, in London. I've interviewed at various Olympics. I've gone into the Athletes' Village and interviewed quite a few different people about it. And it's actually, the swimmers, it's just a huge thing because, you know, they're off competition for week two. Hold on, isn't your daughter six foot eight tall? Hold on, she's 11. We won't get sidetracked by the Athletes' Village.

6:50But I always feel that Gladiator should have been a bit like that. And according to Arika, it was a bit like that. You know, these lively young stars. I slightly wanted the sense that one of the presenters might have some... Maybe it'll be Mark Clattenburg, because we haven't talked about someone who's resubmitting himself for national treasure status. So Mark Clattenburg plays the role of the referee, which was formerly played by John Anderson. He was the Scot who was a contenders ready, gladiators ready, which Mark Clattenburg does with great relish. Mark Clattenburg is a former Premier League and elite referee.

7:25Much loved. who brings a certain amount of baggage. I suggest that he is the villain of the show, perhaps. He could be an emerging villain. I noticed, actually, when he put his arm up the whistle, you see the Klatenberg body art includes the Euros trophy and the Champions League trophy, both finals of which he has officiated in. Did he win them? Well, as he always says, he tried to not make it about himself. He always used to see the players identified with him. I wonder if the gladiators identified with him. I didn't get a huge vibe of that. He should literally have a tattoo of a whistle. And on the other arm, some hate mail.

8:01Yeah. Those should be his tattoos. He used to drive a BMW with a number plate CL4 TTS, Klatz. Did he? Yeah. Wow. I mean, he is really enjoying himself in this, isn't he? He's absolutely loving it. Well, he's recently had to flee Egypt after a scandal I suggest you Google. his attempt to bring order to match officialdom in Egypt seems to have ended with him having to leave with just a suitcase I strongly recommend a quick dive into that one but it's a lovely gig for him all he does throughout is say contenders ready gladiators ready which he knows is a catchphrase already so he's like I can see in his eyes as he is saying that he's thinking I must be able to monetise this I know I don't own the catchphrase but I'm saying it and he gives it everything and he's thinking can I do a contenders ready Klattenberg ready podcast this something or t-shirts that's what he's thinking and then later on Viper who I've got to say one of the gladiators outrageous absolutely cheated on the bridge absolutely fuming which he loved Klattenberg loved it because he could get involved well that's where they bring Klattenberg in you can see Klattenberg thinking that's why you're on the show Now it's time for my close-up.

9:19And, yeah, he disqualifies Viper. I've got to say quite rightly, there were 17-minute delays. Viper was no wolf, though, was he, Richard? He was no wolf. Not yet, anyway. Well, wolf wasn't wolf on the first episode. No, he wasn't. You're right. He was sheep in the first episodes until he unrobed. It's made by Hungry Bear, which is a production company, not a gladiator. Oh, I'd watch a gladiator called Hungry Bear. All day long. Just like it just holds his tummy all the time. Every time a contestant comes along, oh, I do like fighting contestants. As if he's got a little honey around his mouth.

9:55It's a spin-off show, the furry version. Call me Hungry Bear. Don't call me Hungry Bear. Don't do that. That's not a nickname I need. They have cast it so brilliantly and they haven't forgotten the lessons of the previous Gladiators, why we all loved it. They haven't kind of gone, do you know what, let's update it. Let's be more, you know, knowing. They have got some baddies, Viper being one of them. Legend, who is absolutely my favourite, being the other one. They say, Legend, you've got to have respect for your opponent. And he just goes, no. I really liked him. He's got over a million followers on Instagram.

10:33Already? No, previously. So what's his pedigree, if I may? What's his pedigree? If I may. Hold on, let me check the kennel club. he is a you know nutritionist and bodybuilder and personal coach we've created a nation of this it's our last great manufacturing industry gym rat so I think it's great that we've found a sort of outlet and where to use them and it's great to have them actually do something rather than just get big Viper is great Viper slightly worse you know the previous iteration of Gladiators which in a lot of ways was way ahead of its time they had equal representation for men and women it was very diverse all that kind of stuff So they haven't had to change any of that.

11:13But, you know, the old thing of the slightly racist gladiator names for some of the black gladiators, like Nightshade. Shout out. Saracen, you know. So the gladiators are brilliantly cast. They got, as they did previous times, some brilliant athletes. Harry Akinzorite is Nitro, who is very much my, he's the kind of, you know, the golden boy. He was just kind and thoughtful and lovely. And so people for the kids to get behind them. Fire as well was brilliant. They got people for kids to boo, Viper, Legend, who's very much my favourite. But they didn't change very much about it. They had a series of games, men and women.

11:48You introduce the Gladiators. There's a bit of wit in there, a bit of silliness, a bit of pantomime, a bit of WWE. They've got a great endgame, which is the Eliminator, where all the points you score across the episode give you a head start. And that hasn't changed at all. It's identical. So if you're a parent watching at home, you think, oh, yeah, I remember this. This is great. And if you're a kid watching, you're getting the same experience that your parents did when they watched it. So I think fair play to Hungry Bear for doing it so brilliantly. Fair play to the BBC for doing a reboot and doing it very, very well.

12:26And I genuinely think that terrestrial TV is having a hell of a year so far. ideas which are just brilliantly made television and which are bringing people together and bringing people together in a way that non-linear television can't do. Linear is not dead and it's, you know, obviously reports of its death are not only exaggerated but just completely off beam. And in fact, if you look at what lots of the streamers are going to now start trying to get into they're going to become more like TV channels. They're going to have much more stuff that is appointment to view that you want to be watching at the same time as everyone else.

12:59and fast, you know, free ad supported television is going to become much more like this. So the idea that, you know, you watch television only when you want and you don't, this event television has not gone away at all. And if anything, the streamers who have nothing to do with it are trying to find ways to get in on it. And it's very important to have something in our culture where you can call your kids into the room and you can all sit down and watch. I think it's incredibly important. And it's something that have been lost. It's great that people, Dan Baldwin's the exec on this, there's all sorts of brilliant people behind it are making a show that is designed specifically for people to watch with their families and to bring people together from a personal point of view the thing i like most about it is when i look at that cast as i say it's brilliantly cast loads of great gladiators all i'm thinking is oh a couple of those would be good for house of games you know and anything anything that widens have venom on house of games venom no hang on he's not called Venom.

13:56I think that's some hangover gladiator from the previous iteration. Hangover is another of the gladiators. I think it's Apollo. Apollo. The kind of foppy. The one who looked like he went to a minor public school. Yeah, yes. Yes, exactly. Him. Can you have him on, please? I think he's called Brideshead. Yeah, he was great. Again, you think, I wonder what your story's going to be. I want to see his origin story. He was bullied at public school and now he's seeking revenge. Yeah, I want to have all of that. But you see, I would like it if he could have an ill-advised relationship with somebody on the presenting crew, and I just don't think that's going to happen.

14:28Although rule nothing out. Listen, rule nothing out. Rule nothing out with this show. It would be, I genuinely think it would be nice to have a woman co-presenting because it's half men, half women, and the audience is going to be very, very mixed as well. I absolutely guarantee we'll have at least one of the gladiators on House of Games. We're filming a new batch in March. And I guarantee at least one of the gladiators will be on Strictly this year as well. By the way, have you seen the documentary, the origin story documentary about American gladiators? No, apparently it's brilliant. It is amazing.

14:57It's called Muscles and Mayhem. It is very much an unauthorised biography of this show. And it just shows the very origins of it being set up by it. And it was so dodgy and so thrown together. And then it sort of accidentally morphed into the show we know today. It's really, really worth watching. If you were to sit down, I think I wonder what a documentary about the very early days of American Gladiators would be. It is that. It is exactly that. It contains everything you would want it to contain. It contains every character you would want it to contain. You know, the footage of the, you know, there was, it was, there's a lot going on in Muscles of Mayhem.

15:34I'll say that. I recommend it. I did a little dive into where some of the former gladiators are. We spoke already about Wolf, didn't we? Yes. The fact that he was in Squid Game. Yes. The challenge. He was one that he got knocked out in the very first round. Yes, I forgot about that. Sorry, I've forgotten about that. But yes, I saw Hunter doing an interview. I don't know he looked almost like he could be a sort of pundit on Jeremy Vine now he may well be I don't yes it's James Crossley isn't he I think he's often on This Morning and stuff doing diet and fitness advice that's the thing Diane Newdale Jet of course the wonderful Jet she's a psychotherapist she just got married to a woman she met in the supermarket and every picture you see of her she looks very very happy which is nice because there's a generation who wish nothing but happiness for Jet Ace is about to be ordained as a Church of England cleric Shut the front door.

16:23He calls himself a gladiator of the gospel. Oh, I've got to get into that one. He is smiting all around. But the most famous one, Eunice Huthart. Yes, but she was a contestant. Imagine remembering the name of someone as a contestant. She was a contestant. Then she became a gladiator. Yeah. And then she became a stunt double. So she's Angelina Jolie's stunt double. You know, she works on all the big films. She is godmother to Angelina and Brad's child, Shiloh. wow that's a bit like jury service though I think they've got so many everyone gets called up at some point are you not poor old you am I not do you know I'm not not not not with my history with Angelina she's not I mean honestly Brad would not have it I guarantee you that can I say one final thing which is I tried I'm always fascinated by music and one of the lovely things they've done on this show is they haven't messed about with the music the theme music um you know do you have the speed and the skill to be a gladiator and i was trying to i thought who's written that it's at hall and oates who is it uh and it's a guy called muff murph in has written it i couldn't find anything about it anywhere and as always podcasts help you out and there's a thing called gladpod which is a podcast all about gladiators uh jet hosts it and they talked to muff murph in and he was saying that there's a lovely man called john k cooper he's one of the big old school entertainment producers at ITV did Blind Date and all that stuff and he'd been tasked with making an English version of this and he knew Muff Murphy and he wrote jingles and he knew that Muff had done the jingle for um Capital Radio's Eye in the Sky the helicopter traffic and John loved that so much he said to Muff would you want to think to Gladiators so Muff went away flew over to Dallas recorded it with some unknown session singer uh and it's still exactly the same one now it's so great oh that's fantastic yes I like any theme tune that explains the show within the theme tune I've got a weakness for so if you haven't watched it and you've got kids if you haven't watched it and you used to watch it I think it's really really worth a watch it's a lot of fun it's very silly and it's exactly the same as it used to be and we'll talk more I suspect in another week about reboots and why there are so many and what that means and Channel's playing it safe but we might talk a bit more about nostalgia in our next item which is dead celebrities.

18:39I mean, that's the ultimate nostalgia, isn't it? I mean, yes. So development of sort of holographic technology and things like that, based on things like the Abba Voyage, which is obviously a hugely successful kind of concert property, really. George Michael's estate, having said not that long ago that they weren't going to get into this, have now registered saying that activity at the group will broaden in the next one to three or years to include live public performances. And funnily enough, for a TV thing that I worked on, I ended up doing a bit of research into sort of dead celebrities. And there is a whole agency in America, a guy called Michael, I think he's called, is he called Michael Russler?

19:18Mark Russler. And he's got an agency called CMG, which essentially deals with dead celebrities. Does CMG stand for Corpse Management Group? Yeah, I mean, that's brilliant. Yes. I mean, I think we're dealing, you're dealing with a certain type of person, let's put it that way. He claims to manage Ingrid Bergman, Betty Davis, Billie Holiday. And to all intents and purposes, sort of does. There is a huge, huge, this is a multi, multi-billion dollar industry a year already. What they're called is Delebs. That is the formal industry term for it. D-E-L-E-B-S, Delebs. I mean, these people make, I mean, James Dean, he made three films in his life and he does not start working now.

20:00I can't remember. I mean, he's done McDonald's advert, Chrysler adverts, so many adverts. Recently, not that long ago, they actually said they're making a Vietnam film in which they couldn't find anyone to cast who would be as good as James Dean. So they were casting him and it became quite a big sort of bone of connection. Lots of people saying this is really this is going too far. And in the end, it has been cancelled, but it will happen. In fact, you know, a big, I think it's interesting. Another thing that happened this week is a sort of comedian who specializes in AI dropped an AI George Carlin comedy special, which, again, has caused quite a lot of controversy.

20:38And he's made it very clear that this is just his sort of AI version. So he's done his material through George Carlin, who's the great old American comedian's voice. Can I say that it falls short of the original? Yes, it does. and actually something that his daughter something that she really condemned this and said humans are so afraid of the void that we can't let what has fallen into it stay there. I think that's quite interesting. It's just for money that this thing is happening and I know that lots of people say yes but it's wonderful to be able to see George Michael again well I'm sorry people die and this is what happens and I don't I'm slightly against the Abba thing is a different thing.

21:12They're all alive and it's more of a sort of concept show in lots and lots of ways and it's got a sort of story to it and it's a different kind of thing but kind of reviving celebrities after their death is half of martin luther king's estate is controlled by some of the children and and the others don't have control this guy the one i was talking about cmg corpse management group he licensed him to um sell dodge trucks once in a super bowl advert not that long ago i mean is this what martin luther king would have wanted i have a dream off-road utility yeah i'm more for people being allowed to stay dead and obviously star wars have done it we've had you've had peter cushing was sort of revived for rogue one and i think one of the later ones carrie fisher obviously um and you're going to see it more and more it was a big big bone of contention in the sag after the screen actors guild strike which is you know actors feel that ai is a sort of existential threat to them and i think that the deal they got i can see why lots of them aren't even happy and they do feel that sooner rather than later their images will be used in this way.

22:17There's also a sort of old celebrities are approached by these groups and sign, perhaps elderly and infirmed, sign away their future rights while they're still alive for a sum now. And I think it's a very complicated area, but it's an increasingly lucrative one. And it's happening more and more in music as well. Dylan sold his catalogue for 400 million. Bowie, after his death, his catalogue was sold for 250 million. You know, it's a huge amount of money in it. Elvis still makes over 100 million dollars every year. He's normally the top. This year will be a big year. But do you know what? Always from Graceland.

22:55Graceland is where he makes almost all his money. The theme park and the merchandise. It's literally his house. And it's not that enormous. He's like a North London couple he bought in the 80s. His house is making him all his money. But even Jeff Beccaro, who was the drummer from Toto, So he sold his publishing rights. He passed away many years ago. His publishing rights were sold for$25 million. There's an awful lot of money in old music. But going back to Abba Voyage for a moment, have you seen it? Yes, I have. I mean, I thought it was magnificent. It felt like an entirely different form of art.

23:27Yes, exactly. But I think that that is separate, I think, to some of these things, which is just trying to sort of monetize the dead person. I think they collaborated on it. They had this idea. they didn't want to be old on stage, all sorts of things. But I don't think it's the same as sort of reviving people in this way, often without their consent. Simon Fuller said he came up with the idea for Voyage. He's not involved in it, but I know he had early discussions when he saw the Tupac hologram and thought, do you remember that? Yes, yeah. And thought, hold on a minute. I think that when you go and see that ABBA thing, I was talking to my brother, my brother has an interesting view.

24:05He says, you know, when we think about Mozart and Beethoven, that's the canon of classical music. We don't just need to see Beethoven and Mozart play it. I agree. You know, just anyone can do it. And he said, look, the music of the 60s and 70s and 80s is canon now. And it's going to be around forever and ever and ever. So if I'm George Michael's estate, and who clearly love him a great deal, but to send George Michael around the world and to let him sing for fans again I don't mind it I think there's something in our culture that just can't handle the end of things in this way I think that it's really significant to me that in Marvel movies they've sort of always invented the multiverse or any character can come back to life really and they've done that and as a result people are just not used to they can't really deal with endings there's sort of beginnings, middles, new beginnings and there are no stakes in the same way because if you remove the idea of death as final and things like that, then what you're removing, to a large extent, is the kind of greater stakes in types of drama and things like that.

25:09There's also another thing, which is if you're a producer or an executive, the hardest thing to deal with is the talent. The one thing about dead talent is they're easier to deal with. I bet this guy loves his books. He's got the easiest client. Occasionally you get someone like Michael Jackson, you're thinking, all right, well, that makes things a little bit difficult. Yeah, but he's not getting five calls a week from Ingrid Bergman. No. Is he? Yeah. She didn't like where she got sat at the awards. None of that. You're not having any of this. She's been airbrushed incorrectly. They're the easiest clients in the world.

25:39His Book of the Dead. And also what it means is that the fans who might wish to depict their fallen idols in any kind of way are actually at the mercy of really aggressive entertainment lawyers who are saying, no, well, hang on, we own the rights to that. You can't do that. You can't make a tribute. some of the King family or some of the King family estate rather have charged millions of dollars for having statues put up to him but were happy to license for the Dodge commercial whereas other members of the family are really against it but I have to say I don't think it's a positive thing. Once you know that Kiss, the rock band Kiss are of course doing a holographic tour.

26:18Of course they are. The most shameless monetizers in the almost, I think probably in rock history I don't think there's any they even had a coffin a Kiss branded coffin once the Kiss casket wow Gene Simmons said I love living but this makes the alternative look pretty damn good I'm sure after his own death he'll have sewn it up so that no one would be able to make any more money he'll have got the last penny while he's still alive but perhaps that's what we should order you can't take it with you all I'm hearing though is that Kiss are going to do a hologram concert which you're going to go to of course I am I'm absolutely fully in favour of it but then there's people People like Tolkien made half a billion dollars.

26:56His rights were sold for half a billion dollars the year before. So if you're the relatives of somebody with a great back catalogue of music or a great canon of literature, I don't know what you do if someone offers you half a billion. And you think, well, it might mean that my great-granddad at some point is in an advert for Olivetti. But half a billion dollars is a lot of money. I've been dealing recently with the Agatha Christie organisation. it's her great great grandson James I think he runs that and that's the way to do it you know he clearly cares about Eckhart Tolle Christie and he cares about the legacy and he cares about the work and you know they do very very interesting things so you know I think there's ways and means of doing it right I think the big thing is going to be movies where you're going to be able to have Robert De Niro and Clint Eastwood in movies for the next 50 60 70 years you know you're going to be able to have whoever you want in any movie you want I was talking to someone who said you can put yourself in these you can put yourself in back to the future yeah well this is the bit this is what a lot of actors had a big problem with the first of all the idea that you couldn't find anyone other than james dean for this vietnam movie but um harry styles yeah surely but you but you're you're feeling that you're going to be done out of work and why wouldn't you be and that's it's sort of existential for the actors and that's why i think they're going to have to go back to the table on ai but also everything i guess ideas up in three years but everything everything is existential for actors really well isn't it but yeah this is about i do i genuinely think this is a bad one.

28:20I genuinely think, however gently, gently they're pushing things at the moment, just bit by bit they're going to put their foot in the door and there's going to be people in films who don't really exist and there's going to be people in films who won't there in the room. Well, this is why they got the deal. They got the deal. The actors and the writers got the deals in the two big strikes that happened last summer, a big part of which were both strikes was AI. They got the deals because it's just not quite good enough yet for the studios to be using it. But believe me, as soon as it is, you'll have to be back at that table and you won't be getting anything like that deal anymore.

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