⁠The Truth Behind ITV’s Daytime Cull

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2:05Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osmond. Hello everyone. Hello Marina. We're in different countries again. You remain in Italy in a place of sophistication and culinary charm. Si, si, si. Va bene, va bene. I'm in Bologna now. And I remain in the basement at Spotify. Listen, it's sort of a dream factory. Have you been having delicious food? Yeah, lovely food. And we did a big event last night in a huge library in Bologna, which is great fun. The Italians have gone nuts for We Solve Murders, which is really, really lovely. That's the book, not the concept.

2:39Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. The look of the title in Italian is so cool. There's something about that cover. The Italian cover is very, very cool. Also, I have a present for you, which I'm going to give to you after the advert break, but I think you're going to like. Oh, my God. But I can't wait. You're going to have to. I have to wait, don't I? Yeah, you do, I'm afraid. Just the way you're running it. And not only do I have a present for you, Marina, I have a present for Thursday Murder Club fans which is on Thursday the very very first trailer for the Thursday Murder Club film is being released if you want to see it a bit early you can follow my newsletter that's if you go to Instagram or or Twitter it's in the bio you sign up you'll see it an hour before everybody else but yeah the first trailer the teaser trailer is out on Thursday Netflix releasing the uh the first trailer.

3:27Oh my gosh, that's exciting. I love a trailer. So you get to see all of those amazing actors playing those roles in that trailer. So it's on Thursday. You sign up to the newsletter, if you look in any of my bios. I'm already signed up to your newsletter. Well, you're going to see it an hour early then. So can you actually just email it to me so I can see it before even then? But okay, we'll talk about it after. Oh yeah, and get sued by Netflix. Great idea. Like Christmas morning, looking out the window until your grandparents arrive. You're going to have to wait. What are we talking about today?

3:53Okay, we're talking about what's happening at ITV. There have been cuts in sort of daytime morning and we're going to talk a little bit about what's behind that and what it means. And Channel 4 as well we're talking about in that. We're also going to talk about now either you've heard of this lady in which case I think you're going to be interested or you haven't in which case prepare to be informed. We're going to talk about Ms Rachel the huge YouTube star who's now a huge Netflix star. And we're going to be talking a bit about YouTube and Netflix within that. And we're also going to be talking about Britain's unlikeliest ever music success story.

4:28I would say there's a British band who just had a UK and US number one album, which is incredibly rare. And I would say they're an unusual proposition. So lots of interesting things to talk about. But shall we begin? All you're thinking about is your present. I am thinking about my present. But let's begin with ITV. So ITV, daytime, essentially they have a block in the morning ITV, which is Good Morning Britain, Lorraine, This Morning, and Loose Women, which has been going for a very, very long time. Takes them from 6am to 1pm. Made by production teams, which cross over an awful lot. Made in the same studios.

5:05So it's a real block of programming that has existed for a very, very long time, but is about to be cold. There's going to be 220 redundancies, which is a huge amount and it is another symbol of what's happening to our television and the terrestrial broadcasters having to cut their cloth according to the advertising revenues they're getting so it's a real watershed moment i think for british television production it's a watershed but it's been coming for for a long time really in the sense of that block of television in the day which you described, the price of producing this stuff goes up. The viewership basically goes down.

5:46In some ways, you know, it's a commercial television thing and it's relatively easy to understand. And the advertising money, it's interesting, the advertising money is sort of flat to slightly low from talking inside, but you get eaten by inflation every year. But this is the same in all genres to some extent, which is, you know, just to pick another one, drama used to cost 600 ,000 pounds for an hour of drama on say ITV and it now costs a million but people watch dramas they do that more as they do entertainment reality sports so put very simply you want to do more of those and you want you're going to have to take the money from elsewhere speaking within ITV to some extent they felt that the other thing is whilst in some ways that it's simple that sort of commercial television proposition equally ad sales are really weirdly complicated and the way advertising is sold on television is complicated but they've discovered that if ratings go down from what they are now even 30 percent you don't necessarily lose ad sales money because you've got the same pool of people watching these things all the time and there and it's a different kind of advertising proposition it's sorry to be talking about advertising but advertising funder models this is how it works a different kind of audience is watching at that time in the morning and you might advertise bread or loo paper or whatever it is but you do want more money for the programs in which you can sell cars and makeup and those sort of things by that sort of virtue that morning schedule has become very very expensive and they basically want to do it for about half well that's the interesting thing because funnily enough i think the ratings thing is a red herring because actually these shows rate very well is the truth and gmb is is a success story in rating terms i mean it gets about 700 000 which doesn't sound like a lot but it's for for gmb you know it's it's it's on the up and throughout the whole day you know throughout that whole morning lorraine this morning loose women they're all getting around that 600 700 000 uh mark which is as you say when you know exactly who's watching this show because it's been on for a very very long time it's actually very useful to advertisers however itv as a whole have a lot less money and so what they're trying to do i think is protect those ratings.

7:53So we're at the stage now where we're cutting off healthy limbs in British television, which is a terrifying place to be. Now, to sum up exactly what they're doing, Lorraine and Loose Women, which are on essentially 52 weeks a year, are now coming down to 30 weeks a year. And they're extending GMB as well to cover that. And of course, there's huge cost savings there because GMB is one team. And if they're suddenly doing an hour more television, that's saving you money. It's one of the rare kind of plus points for British television daytime. You know, it does have a stable and very loyal audience.

8:27You know, it is an audience that advertisers can rely on. And yet they are having to share 220 jobs out of 440. It's half the workforce going, you know, in every single area and every single one of these shows. And it feels like a real harbinger to me because, as I say, these are not failing television programs. These are not television programs that have lost their luster. So these are television programs that the people working on care for, that the audiences care for. And suddenly half the people losing their jobs. But at the same time, I'm not quite sure what else ITV can do. No, I'm afraid I don't think there is anything else they can do.

9:04I would caution against sort of calling it cutting off healthy limbs simply because I would say that sometimes it enables them to exist for much longer. Oh, yes. In a funny kind of way, it's a bit like print, you know, which we've talked about before. It's going to carry on much longer than people think. But if you look at what happened with something like, I was just thinking recently, okay, something that happened with something like Newsnight. Again, it's got a very loyal audience. They completely savaged the budget, you know, so they couldn't do expensive films. It became shorter. But it looks a lot perkier and the ratings are up 30 % across the seven days.

9:38The idea that sort of breakfast is dead as a, someone could still do something very splashy with the mornings as in a presenter. we could still get someone who could come on to, I don't know, GMB or something and really do something that goes viral almost, you know, to some extent like Piers Morgan did, but there are other people who could still do that. I mean... Two words, Richard Maidley. Well... Every time he opens his mouth on that show, it goes everywhere. Maidley's one thought. I have to say, you know, there's someone who is very, very brilliant and if he were not... I mean, I suppose this is a behind-the-scenes podcast, so I can tell you what people say on TV about Nick Ferrari, which is I think he's got to look for radio.

10:22But I tell you what, Nick Ferrari, well, whatever your thoughts on him, he's very, very brilliant at that job. And if he was doing GMB, then you can be sure it would be a sort of more hard line, more likely to go viral thing every day. And again, we're talking repeatedly, aren't we, about viral clips, which tells you a lot. I think he probably gets more money for less work on his radio show. Sure, but there's something about TV that people still want to be on it, isn't there? I'm not saying it is him, by the way, because it could be someone completely different and it could be someone, you know, he wouldn't mind me saying much younger, but somebody could still grab it and do something with that slot for definite, I think.

10:56Are you absolutely certain he wouldn't mind you saying that? It feels to me like I'd mind it if he said that about me. I think they'd be a lot younger than me as well. So this is, you know, whatever. We will have to be realistic. I'd feel like if someone said to me, you're too old to play football for England, that's fair enough. If someone said to me, you're too old to present GMB, I might be like, am I? It's a possibility. By the way, I think he would be brilliant as it. I think he would be brilliant at it. So I'm just saying it could be someone like him. It could be someone different. Somebody could still grab that slot.

11:21Yeah. And the thing is, you know, breakfast TV still is big. You know, BBC is still getting over a million at breakfast. And it's a lot. Very, very little on British TV these days gets a million, even in the evenings. Shall I tell you the shows that the daytime shows that get a million? It's a vanishingly small number. So on BBC, BBC Breakfast gets over a million. we then dip under a million for the homes under the hammers of this world which still do good numbers you then rise to um over a million again for bargain hunt you then the news gets one million then you dip down again until point this starts and then then you're back over a million bbc 2 and channel 4 nothing nothing's getting a million at all bbc 2 essentially it's all repeats in daytimes all of their daytime money goes to bbc one which i think is right as house of games is when it tips over a million for uh for vbc2 channel 4 again they it's difficult with channel 4 so quite like their daytime offering countdown is still on countdown is getting 300 000 something like that which actually is a success story because it was really in the doldrums under the previous uh presenter and they bought in colin murray and it's had a lease of life but it's 300 000 they have new life in the sun you know um chateau diy good shows but they're getting 300 400 000 and channel 4 you're not you know i think the other day taskmaster was the first thing that even got close to a million and that's nine o 'clock at night so very very little is getting a million and yet in daytime you do have shows that do that itv six seven hundred thousand as i say all morning and a consistent audience that's healthy and you wait till tipping point and chase and the ratings are through the roof there you know 1.5 the chase can get three million on a good day yeah so daytime TV is really, really, really pays its way because it's much deeper than normal TV.

13:05And yet, we're losing half the jobs here. And that is, as I say, I don't think it's the fault. I don't think it's bungling channel bosses. I think it is the new reality of British television. I just want to say, I've spoke to various presenters of GMB who are absolutely gutted because I think they feel like that team has done incredibly to bring GMB to where it is today. But they're all safe. I think that's something very notable about this news. They might be doing slightly less. Yes, they've lost half of their year's work. But yeah, the key thing is... Not necessarily, because for someone like Lorraine, if she was doing four days a week before and someone else was doing five days, now it's fewer weeks of the year, but she's doing five days.

13:44Oh, Lorraine does 30 weeks a year, whatever. So it's the team. So as I say, I've talked to some presenters and none of them are crowing. None of them are going, phew, we've still got our jobs. They're all saying, this team who we've worked with forever and ever and ever, that's lighting, sound, camera, makeup, wardrobe. Those are the people, they all got summoned to ITV the night before this announcement. And they were told, if we give you a green light, you've kept your job. If we give you an amber light, you have to reapply for your job. And if you get a red light, you've lost your job. And these are people who've worked in this same team for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years.

14:20And again, listen, there's an inevitability about it. I get it. But as someone who's grown up in that industry and grown up with those people and grown up in those teams. It's a sad day, I would say. It's a sad day, but I don't think it's due to mismanagement. I think it's due to the new economics of the situation that we live in. I mean, it's weird. When you and I were really young, these channels used to have old films on in the afternoon. And I honestly sometimes think we might end up with some of that in the schedule because I think eventually just making programmes at all becomes prohibitively expensive.

14:54And I think that bought in stuff at some point will take up more of the daytime weekday schedule as it once did, you know, as it once did. Yes. I mean, you know, all TV has expanded. You know, as you say, we used to have a very small amount of TV and it cost us an awful lot. And now it's, you know, it's on constantly. But we've had this for a long time now. You know, most people under 45 are used to television being on the whole time. And so we mustn't show our age too much. Listen, we're not we're not Nick Ferrara yet, Marina. He's very good. Listen, I genuinely don't doubt it. I take a lot of cabs.

15:27I'm aware of his qualities. But this has happened before on ITV daytime. They were forced into a change before and it really, really worked for them is the interesting thing. I think this is what's behind it because if you cast your mind back seven or eight years and the Jeremy Carl show was an absolute fixture of ITV mornings. and when that had to be taken off air for the reasons that we all know gmb and lorraine moved forward a bit this morning moved backwards a bit and they they covered the gap like an open wound and nobody noticed the difference so they saved it you know the jeremy carl show which cost them whatever it cost them suddenly they're the same production teams who are already making programs for them closed up across that whole hour nothing happened to the ratings but something happened to the cost which is it came down so they've done this before and something happens to the employees of those shows and that you know you you led on that when we opened this item and that's what i totally you know it's absolutely heartbreaking for those people who have lost their jobs and have built these shows i agree but i also agree realistically that you it can it can be covered much in the way you said as it happened before yeah it's you know the only thing i think that's tricky about it is these are successful shows and that's a real kick in the nuts for everybody who's who's working on this is listen we've all worked on failing shows all of us and you you're aware that at the end of the contract there's not going to be another contract you absolutely get it that's that's the business we work in it's a hits business but these people are working on hits so channel four this week also announced something which went down very badly with the independent sector anyway which is they are going to start producing more of their programs in-house and to explain what that means bbc traditionally always made all of their own programs now Now, independents make programs for them as well.

17:14ITV have ITV studios, which make lots of programs for them. And what that means essentially is you're getting the advertising money for putting a show like The Chase out, but you're also getting money from selling The Chase abroad. So you're double dipping every time you do a show. Now, Channel 4, whose sole existence is to support a British creative industry and support independents, are again in a situation where the money is not adding up. And so they are suggesting that they do what the BBC and ITV do, have BBC studios and ITV studios and have their own in-house production. The indie sector has understandably gone nuts about that because the whole point of Channel 4 was it was to support this industry.

17:56But they're just choosing a different route than ITV to exactly the same problem, which is if the money is not coming in to your channel and you want your channel to continue. and we all do that if we're inside an organisation, you have to do something. I think the Channel 4 thing doesn't smell right to me because the whole job is supposed to be to support the British creative industry and if they're owning their own companies, I think it's harder. But it just goes to show that everybody is having terrible trouble. Everybody is out there saying, can you do the same for half the price? It's the conversation.

18:32It's certainly not limited to, as I say, to you know as we've talked about it before in drama and other things that people are saying for half or two-thirds of the price not can you but you're going to need to find a way of doing it because otherwise it's not going to happen at all yeah the big bbc comedy festival up in belfast last week again this was a lot of the conversation the producers are saying we cannot afford to keep making the comedy we make and we need to find a way of making it cheaper We need to find a way of British audiences accepting slightly cheaper looking television. Because the nice thing with comedy is if it's funny, it's funny.

19:07And people will forgive what it looks like. So that conversation is being had. And they announced a lot of new commissions at that. And some of them are on the cheaper end of the scale. So that's three different channels. The BBC trying to find cost cuttings in making the sort of things it was making anyway. ITV consolidating lots of different shows under one banner, saving money. channel 4 thinking can we make our own television programs and make money and all of these people are speaking to the same point which is the industry we grew up with is no longer there and can we eke it out as long as possible and get to the point where we have a big streaming service owned by these companies that actually can compete internationally and if we can keep going for the next five years then i think we have a chance to do that because with ai the whole industry is about to change completely completely and i think if you're still in the game at that point i think then this this industry could uh could remain very very healthy i agree with that that is a positive note to wind this occasionally negative item up with good old ai i mean listen it's going to kill us all as well yeah of course at least it'll be good for tv that's the message of this podcast we will die at the hands of the machines but we'll be watching great telly while it's happening.

20:24Yeah, right up to the last minute. Can I just watch one more minute of Escape to the Country before you annihilate me? Right. On that note, shall we go to a break? Yeah, well, you say that because you know you're getting a present. I know, I just want to go to a break. Can we go to a break and come back from the break and get my present? But please listen to the adverts, you know, like always.

20:45This podcast is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch season three of And Just like that the next chapter in the sex in the city story what is carrie brettar up to now marina well she has said goodbye to her beloved apartment she's moved into a townhouse in gramercy park new chapter new book she is right you'll love this she's writing romanticy richard yes that genre we have already pretended to understand for this podcast just romance and fantasy listen it's what i'm doing next the thursday romantic club now miranda's adjusting to post shale life Charlotte is navigating family life while reliving her 30s alongside younger colleagues.

21:21And Carrie, she is still catastrophically allergic to stability, but trying. Watch the brand new season of And Just Like That, available 30th of May on Sky.

21:37Welcome back, everybody. Apologies, by the way, if you hear some Italian traffic in the background. I have to keep the window open here, otherwise I shall die. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, it's very atmospheric and you're open to the Italian streets. I'm hearing no atmosphere but a lot of attitude. That's what I'm hearing. Now, shall we go straight on to talk about this British band who are making waves or shall we give you your present? I want to talk about Sleep Token, but you know I have to have my present first. Let's have your present. Now, this is something we talked about a while ago. It's almost impossible to get hold of, but we managed to get hold of one for you.

22:10Now, Joey, our lovely producer in London, has got it for you. He's going to bring it in for you now. Oh, my God. Look, it's being passed to me right now. Oh, my gosh. This is like unboxing. This is going to go crazy on YouTube. Oh, my God. Is this Glen Powell's mustard? Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You're so lucky. This is the Smash Kitchen. This is not sponsored content. I just want you to know. Oh, my God. Look, they've even got me some chips that I can try it with. Oh, my God. I'm going to try this live. What else is in this bag? Smash Kitchen Spicy Mayonnaise? Why hasn't Glenn Powell, like Paul Newman, put his face on this?

22:49That is a ball job, I've got to say. But can I try it now? What are you trying, the mustard or the spicy mayonnaise? Spicy mayonnaise, obviously, I'm going first with it. But don't worry, it'll all get used. Hang on, I've got to take off that little bit. This could be 40 minutes, as anyone who's ever opened a ketchup at home will know. This is the sort of content Nick Ferrari would kill for. Right, here it is. Look, there we go. Let me try that with a chip.

23:43I'm getting very strong top notes of salad cream, actually, weirdly. Interesting that Texan thinks this is spicy. But yeah, it's growing on me. Is it? Very much like the work of Clem Powell that's now actually grown on me and it's now symbiotically linked to me. If you cut one of us, we bleed. He says this all the time, by the way, but they cut it out of interviews. They don't want to draw attention to me. I absolutely I can't thank you enough I say this present is from me it's impossible to get hold of this Glen Powell sauce in the UK, impossible but I tell you where it's not impossible that's America and one of our listeners lovely Sam Bond said to us I'm coming over to the UK can I buy some Glen Powell sauce for you and bring it over for Marina and we said Sam thank you so much that would be our absolute pleasure I think she's written you a little note as well I feel like I'm doing the birthdays on CBeebies.

24:41Excuse me. Right. Sorry. Hello, Marina. I hope you enjoy these Glenn Powell smash kitchen items. I'll be honest. I had to ask my two girls who Glenn Powell was. Well, gosh. Well, I mean, the present is actually all yours, isn't it, Sam? Yes. Which only went to prove how out of the loop I am, especially as we live in Austin. Wow. Oh, my gosh. That's cool. Okay. Sam, Richard, I cannot thank you enough. This is a wonderful present. I, yeah, thank you so much. You've made me very happy. Excellent. Now, talking of things that are hot and successful in America. Sleep Token. Sleep Token. So a British band, they were number one in the UK last week and number one in America.

25:20Have you heard of them? Now, again, we're talking about the side-o-ization of our culture. So to be number one in America, number one album in America, is huge. It's a huge deal. And that's exactly what Sleep Token have just done with their fourth album, which is called, and this will give you an idea of what the type of band Sleep Token are. It's called Even in Arcadia. Giving you even more of an idea of what sort of band Sleep Token are, their second album was called This Place Will Become Your Tomb. Now, Sleep Token are one of those bands. Nobody knows who they are because they are always masked at all times.

25:54The lead singer is called Vessel, probably not his real name, and the other members of the band are called, in Roman numerals, 2, 3, and 4. So formed in 2016, always been masked their shtick is they worship a deity called sleep it's hard rock it's not hard rock this is what they like to describe themselves as so you're listening and you're expecting you're going to hear something fully metal but you're hearing am I hearing art pop now? it's the least metal thing I've ever heard basically you could put this in your hand luggage and it would go through the scanners I think uh that's what I thought that I genuinely if you've not listened to them go on to Spotify or or you know where or buy something buy an album and have a listen because it's sort of everything all at once there's kind of some new metal there there's EDM in there there's all pop there's pop rap there's a bit of shoegaze it's kind of everything he sings in a very operatic style but then he's guttural kind of screams as well so it's it's a very very peculiar sound and as I say I think the fascinating thing about them is the secrecy of who they are now you you can find out who they are very easily but I will choose not to say who they actually are but they present themselves entirely masked entirely you know they have a backstory of these things that they worship every single one of their Instagram posts starts behold which suggests to me they've also got a sense of humor that yeah their live shows are called rituals are the singles or offerings for maybe older listeners, there's a very, very strong sense of Spinal Tap, Stonehenge to this.

27:35There's a real, like, you know, England is a country of folklore, et cetera, et cetera. And obviously the title, you know, Take Me Back to Eden, even in Arcadia, all of these things are deliberately pretentious, as it were. The mask thing I think is interesting. They are the second masked band to have a number one album in the last month. In America. Yeah, in America. and that was Ghost with Skeletor. But there's something about, obviously, by the way, masks and particularly masks in kind of hard rock and metal or whatever have always been around. You had, I don't know, Gwara and Slipknot. Slipknot, yeah.

28:12Even Pussy Riot. And actually also, I suppose I'm thinking in Daft Punk, in Electronica you have The Knife or whatever, people like that. But there's something about this particular age where so many bands are singing about these kind of weird parasocial relationships, their fans and, you know, whatever. that masks in some ways make more sense than ever in this kind of weird world. In the last single, Vessel sings, Caramel, the last single, he says, this stage has become a prison. And the idea of even being hidden has captured him. Well, I love it when bands get to that stage where a huge amount of music they're making is about the songs about the pressures of fame.

28:54Do you remember that bit in Almost Famous where Philip Seymour Hoffman, who's playing Lester Bang, says to the kid, and the kid's like, I don't know, how am I pitching this to Rodinstone? He's asked me what type of piece I'm writing. I don't know what I'm writing. And he says, tell him it's a think piece about a mid-level band struggling with its own limitations in the face of harsh stardom. He'll wet himself. And to some extent, this is a mid-level band struggling with its own limitations in the face of harsh stardom. Am I right? They're not critical darlings, Richard. No, God, they're not. Can I read you something from Stereogum about it when the album went to number one?