Tim Davie on BAFTA, Mistakes and the BBC’s Future

13:00Tim Davie:And they're worried about their own scale with 17 billion of content investment. But here we are in the UK we've got an incredible brand we're fighting a good fight and you know iPlayer was you know in many months over the last couple of years outgrowing all the competition and is in

13:16Richard Osman:the game not bad but there is you know there's a flip side to um uh Michelle's question here which is there is a world in which in 10 years time that the huge amount of money that comes into content through the streamers means the BBC doesn't exist that's that's definitively a possibility and one of your jobs is to be a shepherd to try and make sure it does exist without doubt 10 years time what are the biggest challenges you see in the next 10 years with the whole infrastructure of how television is changing how content is changing your question is absolutely

13:49Tim Davie:on the money um i think sometimes you know the bbc's thought it's in jeopardy historically and being contentious about it you're not really in jeopardy i mean the dg may resign or something big might happen but if you've got two out of four tv channels you have to be doing a pretty poor job not to get an audience and i think what i've tried to do in my tenure is say that is a let's not worry too much about that let's really worry about the value and your point which is this is now infinite choice i mean i've got probably more computing power in my car than the whole of croydon had when i was growing up and some yeah it's a good analogy yeah so it's It's a good benchmark.

14:28Richard Osman:I mean, listen, bracket citation needed.

14:31Tim Davie:So I think in that environment, you then say, it goes to the heart of the question again, what are you doing differently? Now, to your point, it is existential. I don't think the BBC has got a right to exist in that way. It has to absolutely deliver value to every household. The exam question for me is not whether the BBC exists actually in the next phase. It is whether it is a market failure, forgive the jargon, but a market failure BBC, almost a charity project on the side, funded by, you know, general taxation or whatever it is where people don't feel participative as opposed to a funding model.

15:10Tim Davie:And currently, 94 % of Brits are Brits users every month, 83%, I think, the week I saw last. That's pretty incredible. And what it allows you to do is make the case for a universal funding mechanic where everyone feels connected and looking for value. That's different to a market failure model. I rail against those people who say it can be just news. That's not what we're trying to build here.

15:34Marina Hyde:Because all of what you're talking about, all these successes actually do get put back into Britain. and I find it quite interesting, for instance, that Netflix, I don't know, I think they paid something like 0.7 % of 1 % tax in the UK last year because they booked the profits elsewhere and it all, we're a sort of extraction colony for them, no offence, they make lots of great things, but they use lots of our talent and then the profits go back to the motherland. Is that something that you find quite, I find that you don't hear politicians talking about that at all when they constantly big up Netflix.

16:05Tim Davie:I'll tell you a couple of things. I'm going to say, I think it's rather pompously an and not an all. So I absolutely think it's great that Netflix are coming, the productions are here, the storytelling is here. But the thing I would agree with you on is I think the UK, we need to really spend time looking at what I call the whole economics more. How much IP do we own? There's a radical difference. It's like Strictly, which is owned by the British public. You know, we've generated a business that can make lots of profit. But that profit is not lying in my pocket. It's being recycled into bonuses or an investment company or a US entity.

16:43Tim Davie:It is literally being used to fund the news, all the things we do as the BBC. I think sometimes I would say we underestimate the need to look at those full economics and where the value is. And that has been an issue over time. So sometimes you're celebrating things which are radically different, just to echo what you're saying, in terms of how much money they're bringing back to UK PLC. The good news, by the way, is the creative industry, 2 million people plus employed, generally better salaries than average, very good for people with different skills, where they've got creative skill, all those things.

17:18Tim Davie:there's plenty of growth to be had. We just need to make sure we capture, going forward, the right share of the economics, and the BBC is part of that.

17:25Richard Osman:Okay, talking of the economics, here's a question from Beryl Sue Onar. He says, if the BBC were being founded today in a world dominated by Netflix, YouTube, and TikTok, do you think the licence fee model would still be the best way to fund it, or would you design something fundamentally different?

17:40Tim Davie:I think I've never felt more the need for the BBC. I really, really feel we've got a choice around what kind of society we build. My thought is that we are facing a crisis in terms of what I call a participative society. It just feels, you know, you have to travel far from, you know, the centre of London, which is a little different. And it feels a long way from some of the institutions and we see it. So we do need to decide. I don't want to be of a generation where I'm looking back going, well, the best days are behind us. I want to intervene. So I think the BBC is an enlightened intervention for the future, not for the past.

18:23Tim Davie:I think being trapped by the past is a problem. So the first thing is, I say, I think absolutely the BBC has got a role to play as a universal provider. And that's the second part, which is we said, look, the specific mechanic. and this is what the charter will get into. And I don't think we should jump the gun on this. We're at consultation phase, but we have set out a very clear preference, which is, and I would do this to the point about restarting where we're at. I think there is a model which says, look, if we can deliver value for every household and really work at that, then everyone contributes fairly.

18:59Tim Davie:And I think that is a model that's worth fighting for. I don't see it as something potentially trapped in the past. I actually think it could be something exciting for the future, quite enlightened. You don't have to go exactly where the market is going currently. You have to make markets. And I think we can do that.

19:14Marina Hyde:Because you said earlier that you didn't feel that the BBC, that it's a kind of slight fallacy to imagine that the BBC is always under siege, although explicitly some political parties...

19:24Tim Davie:Did I say that? I can't remember saying that. I think you can simultaneously be continually under siege and getting on with your work. And actually that you're all right. That's the point.

19:32Marina Hyde:Perhaps the most explicit threats to the future of the BBC have been made, to put an example, by someone like Nigel Farage and Reform. How do you sort of protect the BBC from government control or even malice and still have it accountable to the public?

19:50Tim Davie:I think there's two. Let's just unpick that a bit because there's big things in there. The first is, I think, in terms of some people's vision of the BBC, as I said earlier, I believe that you've got a choice. It's not about killing the BBC. There's not many people who don't want the World Service or for all their angst would keep the newsroom going. The question is, do you have a intervention of scale that does entertainment, all the other things? And I believe that scale is really effective venture capital, both economically and socially for the UK. And as it sits today, we can make that fight.

20:25Tim Davie:And I absolutely think that's right for a mainstream intervention because I don't see it as restricting commercial markets. I see it as stimulating. You know, look at what we've done in the independent production sector. I think that doesn't work for me. So when we talk about people's view of the BBC, I think often we fight the wrong battles. We finger point and say, don't you know we do good work? Yes. That's not the exam question. The exam question is what kind of scale and what kind of operation, how you fund it. When it comes to political interference, I'm pretty straightforward. I think we absolutely need accountability to the public.

20:56Tim Davie:There are mechanics to do that. I think, you know, I can't remember how many select committees I've done, but I may not miss them. But, you know, I think public accountability is essential and through Parliament and through politicians as appropriate when it comes to editorial interference or anything like that. And I think, you know, we need to look at and review how board members are appointed. All of that. Look, when I emailed, he says, 40 million people and we got nearly 900 ,000 people coming back to us with the gift of feedback. and I thank everyone for then, the biggest thing that came through was keep the BBC independent.

21:32Tim Davie:I mean, there's a clear message. Is the idea of it being renewed every, you know,

21:38Marina Hyde:and having to argue for your existence every however many years when the Bank of England has been given a form of independence, is there a way of the BBC being given that independence but still being able to be accountable?

21:50Tim Davie:Well, we've made it very clear in our Green Paper response that we think this idea of a cliff-edge charter is wrong. which is this idea where it's a little bit random, isn't it?

22:01Richard Osman:And a Clifford's charter would be every 10 years you've got to go back and renew. Well, the point is not whether the BBC exists or not.

22:10Tim Davie:It's how that happens. And the idea of a passive action to not renew just allows it to just drift off, to me, just doesn't make sense. So this often gets read, I think, as the BBC not wanting accountability. Nothing could be further than the truth. We need accountability. But I do think the idea of a basic level of charter, I don't know, there might be an example out there of a Royal Charter that has a time length like this. I think there should be a standard provision that just goes forever, basically, until Parliament or whatever the mechanic is decides through reasoned debate actively, actively, not passively, to say, OK, we don't want the BBC anymore.

22:52Tim Davie:but the idea can just roll off and it just happens to be the government du jour. To me, I don't think it's right.

23:00Richard Osman:I genuinely agree with your economic case for the BBC and I'm speaking to someone who doesn't work there anymore but who ran a very, very big independent production company for a long time and I see that the ecosystem in Britain, because we sold to pretty much every country in the world, is probably the best ecosystem there is and I think that's because of the BBC and so I think it raises all ships. So I think the economic argument is an easy one to make, and most people would agree with it. However, there is an ideological argument which is harder to make, and there are ideological opponents who are harder to sate.

23:33And that feels like anyone who wants to follow the economic path,

23:37Richard Osman:I think, would accept there is an argument for funding a BBC. However, I think that the ideological argument is going to be the one that's harder to win. What do you mean by ideological?

23:46Tim Davie:Because the word ideological in that could mean a couple of things, Richard. So give me a bit more incentive.

23:51Richard Osman:Okay, you're saying enlightened intervention into a market. Okay, which has got two words. Intervention, which some people are against in and of itself, and enlightened, which of course is a value judgment. And other people have completely different politics. And there are definitely people out there. You must know every morning when you wake up the people who in 10 years' time don't want the BBC to exist. They're out there. And hard to make that economic argument to them.

24:14Tim Davie:Yeah, but I do think it rests on your view of, do you want an economy? I mean, this is not a speech against markets, but I do think the idea of enlightened intervention is proven actually to stimulate markets. And I think there are without doubts, if we're at the economic end of this question, which says there are people that just say, look, there's perfectly good functioning markets around the world without public service intervention. For what it's worth, we see public service broadcasters around the world. And if I'm beleaguered of a morning, have a look around the world. I mean, honestly, it's really worrying.

24:54Tim Davie:They're being stripped. Yeah. And they are market failure operations. Some of them, many of them are very good, very good people, but they are trapped within their brief. Now, to your point, I think that debate is really the essence of what you want from a public service broadcaster. Do you want a market failure? I've said this a little bit. Yeah. Do you want market failure? Do you want the market making? Now, to your point, Richard, I think there's still, when you really get people to the facts of economic growth, what it looks like. Now, you don't have to be a huge, I mean, I don't think this is cartoon left and right.

25:27Tim Davie:I think there's no one in the world that doesn't think a participative economy doesn't have intervention. It has intervention on tax policy. It has intervention on healthcare. There's no one-way model where you just let it go to the market or you state control everything. But enlightened intervention is, to me, something that is accretive to the economy and to your point, helps grow a bigger commercial side to our business. It is a UK national asset. And it's not a coincidence that we've had this hybrid system. It's not a coincidence. Now, I think to your point, there are some, there are some who look at other markets and just feel uncomfortable about any kind of government intervention in this way or public intervention.

26:10Tim Davie:They also may have their own politics to add to that but that's what i'm really getting as you know well i thought you might be

26:18Richard Osman:i was trying to say it in the politest way i possibly could yeah i i tend to pull them apart

26:22Tim Davie:a little bit yeah and i i think it really is if you really talk to people about the economics of it and you know what the bbc delivers it becomes a more reasoned debate i think some of the also

26:33Marina Hyde:let's talk about the least polarized news market and you look at america which is just as an example which is often held up as like why can't we move more like that they have a hyper-polarized news market where really no one trusts anyone much more than about 20 percent wherever you are whether you're on the left the right and you've got your chosen sources whereas we have something much bigger in the middle because purely because of the bbc we do but also look i don't rail against

27:00Tim Davie:some of the other services that want to you know have a a particular view on life or a length we We should let, you know, within our codes and all that we do in our digital standards and all of that needs management. But let the competition roar. The questions I got earlier on the money, which is what's different about the BBC. The BBC is trying to be all of your media consumption. Maybe we're 30%, but that 30 % is curiously valuable. You know, if you're a young parent and you want to put your precious child in front of some good content, CBeebies is there for you. if you want to watch you know decent drama UK based there's some good other people do some good stuff there's a few titles I would have liked myself over the last you know 24 months but but the BBC is doing it at its heart and that's just different I think I think we it is not a zero sum game and to a point it's always been like that you know people have always read a paper a paper with an opinion and then gone and watched the BBC they may watch the news here then I think there were some there are some worrying societal trends we need to be a bit paranoid about which is people trusting more people of their own view so i think there's work to be done to say okay that's one way of doing it but this is and we need to be more transparent as the bbc in terms of showing on

28:18Richard Osman:air how we even develop our editorial but it sounds like there's a tight rope to walk you i would say this is just my opinion i've walked it very very successfully but your successor is going to have to walk that same tightrope and for quite some time uh without doubt when you sign up

28:34Tim Davie:for the job you the the image of a tightrope going across a a very high canyon uh is is is reasonably appropriate richard yeah yeah i mean there's some joy to be had but look we're in an age where weaponization is rife and and when i say weaponization someone someone said to me well it's not weaponization it's simply pointing out the fact that you didn't get that right or you pull that documentary and that is true we've made mistakes sometimes serious mistakes which we regret but weaponization is selectively taking one fact it may be a fact so you're standing on a fact but what you're not standing on is any effort to be proportionate you're not saying look a thousand stories run we're running and one didn't get it right or overall this is where there's no balance date.

29:22Tim Davie:It's literally just selecting a fact to make a case.

29:26Richard Osman:And that is rife. We've got to question about that very specifically, which we will do after some adverts. I know you're not used to adverts, Tim, but listen, they are our absolute lifeblood. So after the adverts, we will...

29:37Tim Davie:Go and get this thing paid for. Exactly right.

29:39Richard Osman:We will talk about that very weaponisation.

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31:49Richard Osman:Welcome back, everyone. We are joined by Tim Davey, the outgoing Director General of the BBC, is answering all of your questions. We were speaking just before the adverts about when BBC gets things wrong and the weaponisation of that, and we have a question on exactly that, Marina.

32:04Marina Hyde:Well, let's get into it. Chris says, why do you think the BBC failed to learn any lessons from Glastonbury when broadcasting the BAFTAs?

32:12Tim Davie:He's done two in one there. He's done, yeah. They're different situations. They're obviously live events, but they're different situations. So I think in Glastonbury, it was clear the team made a bad mistake not to pull the broadcast rather than doing the warning. And there are learnings around that in terms of making sure with high-risk live music acts. And I say with some heavy heart, actually, because I think we're in a point where you've just got to be safe. But that was completely unacceptable. And I found it really, really quite upsetting. I think a lot of the BBC staff are very upset by it because, you know, it didn't stand for what we stand for.

32:53Tim Davie:And I think it was a bad error. Now, when it comes to BAFTA, scroll forward, we're still in the midst of doing a little bit more work in terms of talking to people and making sure we're across every single detail. but it is very clear they didn't hear that instance. And they heard another instance of the same word and they took it straight out. So it wasn't, unlike Glastonbury, where there was an interpretive question, and as always, these things are, the devil is in the detail. They just did not hear it.

33:22Richard Osman:Well, I mean, listen, just from a production point of view, I'll say two things. It boggles the mind that the communication was so bad that it wasn't heard. But equally, that doesn't feel like a job for the director general.

33:34Tim Davie:Well, I think there's two points you're making there. One is we deeply regret it was aired. I mean, honestly, the hurt it's caused people. Personally, I mean, this is not what we stand for. And when I see, you know, this is the BBC's intent. I mean, honestly, people are very upset that it got aired. And these are good people who are trying to make, I'm not excusing them, by the way, in that way. But they're good people trying to make the right calls. They removed the word, then it came, you know, and they didn't hear it. Now, to your point, Richard, I think there's some things to be learned there.

34:08Tim Davie:And the impact is profound on individuals. And I absolutely think that no one across the BBC feels anything but regret.

34:17Marina Hyde:Is there a part of you, Tim, that thinks I've got a few weeks left? If I have to edit every single programme myself until I can get out and have a leaving do, I'm going to get down there and do it.

34:28Tim Davie:Yeah, I think that the point, and this is Richard's second point, which is the director general is sitting across so much editorial. Simply, as I sit here today, we've got numerous radio stations across the world. So you just have to get the best people in place and absolutely ensure your processes are robust. Sometimes in the last few years, we've had moments where that hasn't worked. And we've had to have learnings. We've moved people. We've done things. but what i would say is i'm very sensitive to it because i think we are deeply sorry when that happens but i also would look across the sweep of the bbc in a highly weaponized world where proportion is something very i'm not excusing this but proportionality is sometimes a little hard to find that we calmly reflect on that and look at the entirety of the bbc output as a simultaneous fact not one that negates the error but i think that is reasonable the director general's job is a couple of things i think in this um aside from just uh picking up the phone and going uh what happened what on earth happened that's polite language i think there's two one is have you got the right people in every place in the organization and the grip and that is a real challenge the second is you are often um and i'm not looking for sympathy but the director general job is okay we have an issue with this documentary.

35:55Tim Davie:Do we pull it or not? It's a absolutely raw editorial choice one way or the other. And I think what you need is someone in the role who can make those choices. Often you're doing that once you're in a situation you wouldn't want to be in. And you are cleaning up in the way that is appropriate. You're also trying to be proportionate. I mean, many people think the BBC Director General was literally just sitting in an office managing crisis. that's not how it is at all no honestly people think you know you're kind of sitting with a towel over your head for days on end it's actually just getting the right people it can actually be quite time efficient what you've got to decide is not your comms line or what you're going to say in that regard it's what is the right thing to do that's what i've tried to do and what do you think and try and act clearly and appropriately and that's all you can do and that's what i say to my successor, just act sensibly in that.

36:50Richard Osman:In a world, and we touched on it just before the adverts came, where, as you say, there is a weaponisation of dissent against the BBC, must make those decisions which, as you say, are often very binary almost impossible.

37:05Tim Davie:It makes it much harder. In a world that's so polarised that everyone is talking about their truth, it does make it harder. It dials it up. The whole thing gets quite lively and and you have to in my job i think you have to actually look after yourself a bit i'm not i mean in terms of just not reading everything or i mean i don't spend my time on

37:28Richard Osman:social media i think i'd collapse yeah i think it's probably for the best thank you for that yeah

37:33Tim Davie:um uh but but you you can't do that i think we can do the survival technique is to a couple of things one is don't be too defensive if you've done something wrong just i'd go for human we We deeply regret it. We made a mistake. I think we've tried to do that more and just be honest about these things.

37:50Marina Hyde:Some people feel the BBC is too apologetic and that they're in this permanent crouch, maybe because of the funding model and the sort of sense that they're always saying sorry. And a lot of people think that, again, you can't win.

38:02Tim Davie:The truth is, as ever, a little bit yes and no. I mean, I think we're pretty robust on a lot of what we do. Most of our coverage, by the way, is loosely positive. It's about what's coming up on traitors. Yeah. It is the, you know, the latest dramas where we're deploying. I mean, honestly, when I look at what's going on around the world, I mean, a part of keeping my sanity is just to sit on the train in the morning and listen to what people are talking about. Yeah. And, you know, they might be talking about, oh, did you see Waiting for the Out? Nice little drama, by the way. Very good. Thank you.

38:35Tim Davie:So that is important to keep perspective while dealing with things seriously. I think the truth of it is, and I see, I have some sympathy for politicians of all flavour here, because this is not a news cycle that's like a day long.

38:48Richard Osman:It's not fun.

38:49Tim Davie:It's half an hour. Yeah. I mean, through that churn, how on earth do you plan long term to do things that really make a difference? And again, I think people are pretty surprised when they come to BBC. We're not running around by headless chickens at all. We've moved on a little bit since W1A in terms of our, you know, the way we operate.

39:07Marina Hyde:Fantastic BBC show.

39:08Tim Davie:Yeah, in the great show. But we've moved on. We're pretty well. I think it's a pretty good team doing its job.

39:15Marina Hyde:Can I talk to you a bit about impartiality? Because we had a lot of people talk about impartiality. And obviously point out that the BBC gets criticised from both sides. Does that mean that it's getting it right? How would you personally define impartiality? And, you know, has it changed a lot during your tenure as Director General?

39:35Tim Davie:I think it's been the biggest challenge. I think negotiating a world in which people often see this, I mean, particularly Gaza, people see the same piece of content and absolutely believe. And I don't say it with angst, by the way, or anger. I might have some angst, but not anger. I say it with some understanding, but people see the same piece of footage and will absolutely be convinced that it indicates because they're looking for cues there. meanwhile add in the fact that we make mistakes now and again so that can be okay that's pure evidence what what i would say is overall we i'm very proud actually that we're still at the races in terms of holding our ground and fighting the fight if you yeah i honestly i mean people don't believe me internationally when i say i've got no idea how chris mason votes i've got no idea henry zephman yeah these people are seriously good um and you can see their intent they're exploring on our behalf, they're inquisitive.

40:37Tim Davie:And you asked me what impartiality needs to be. It is that. It's a fair assessment of where the situation lies, both in terms of facts. So we believe in facts, old-fashioned view, but we believe there are facts. So you chase the facts. You're also very transparent about where the facts are not available. And we also believe in sensible and proportionate interpretation. That is due impartiality. It's not, say, one person here, one person there, we've got the balance. I think that's cheap, okay, or lazy to a point.

41:11Richard Osman:Although that's often been the case in the BBC, certainly in current affairs and things like question time.

41:18Tim Davie:It's also been the facts in UK politics. Yeah. I mean, you're covering a vast swath of population 10 years ago by doing the two main parties. Yeah. We're now in a completely different landscape that actually puts some pressures on you. If you look at the elections coming up, You know, look at them and add the nations in there as well. You've got complexities around less people locked into a political party, more issues based. You know, this final point, just to pick up on your your question about number of complaints, a relevant factor. But certainly I would not allow a BBC executive off the hook by going, we've got 5000 here.

41:52Tim Davie:We've got 5000 there. It's the old cliche, but it's the nature of the complaints, the depth of the complaint is has it got merit? I think what can happen is these situations can, because they're so intense, can provoke unnecessary defensiveness. And I've really tried on my watch to provoke open mindedness. Well, maybe they've got a point. So instead of this is clearly coming from that point of view, just keep an open mind and do your best. And that's all human beings can do. I think we're doing OK. But it's been really tough. And we made a few mistakes that have allowed the whole thing to be often, you know, really, really difficult over periods.

42:37Marina Hyde:But I should say one thing we're not able to talk about today is the ongoing case with Trump. Indeed. That's great.

42:44Richard Osman:We don't have to talk about it.

42:45Marina Hyde:I know. He's available on demand in so many other formats. If you want your Trump fix, you can't get him.

42:51Tim Davie:We're fighting the case. We're defending it aggressively. And that's about as much as I can say.

42:55Richard Osman:But talking about politics and talking about elephants in rooms, David Bennett asked a question which we had in so many different forms, and you're the person best placed to answer this, I think. When you announced you were leaving the BBC, Lisa Nandy highlighted she was concerned about political appointments to the board of the BBC. Do you think that those on the BBC board have the BBC's best interests at heart? And you know what the question is there, which is, is there a right-wing bias on the BBC board?

43:19Tim Davie:I don't know anyone on the BBC board who hasn't got the BBC's best interests at heart. No one. I think if you go down, by the way, to the newsroom floor, you would be reassured, weirdly, despite all the noise. If you meet John Neill, editor of the 6 and the 10, and watch that meeting, they are not being – I mean, honestly, the level of interference, I mean, honestly, is not something I worry about.

43:44Richard Osman:You understand why the question is asked, though, because there is a narrative that gains so much traction, which is Robbie Gibb is on the board. The BBC is skewing right. There's a right-wing plot to oust you and Deborah Ternis. I ask that question only because you're aware of that narrative and you're the best person to answer it. I'm very aware of it.

44:02Tim Davie:What I'm saying is that decision I made was largely – again, there's no cryptic stuff here. I wrote when I left, there were three things and they were the facts. One is, you know, after five and a half years, I thought that's about the right tenure for me. The second was I actually thought there was a gap to charter and it's worked. I say it's worked, let's see what happens. But, you know, we've responded to the green paper. I think it works to have someone new come in and then take it. And I think we're in a good state as the BBC. And lastly, the Trump situation was difficult. put that together that's why i decided to to move um you know i'll say going forward i do think for all public institutions and we've made this clear in our charter green paper submission that i've always been a fan of the system we've had in the uk has has been one where we've chosen people of high competence we've not necessarily made ideology overriding and i think that's great that's what we should do we've been very clear on the appointments going forward that's all i'll say on that.

45:07Richard Osman:But in your response to the Green Paper you do talk about perhaps making the BBC board non-political appointees and is there was there anyone on the BBC board who disagreed with that?

45:17Tim Davie:Well it will not surprise you that I don't deconstruct board debates within the podcast studio but I think everyone is aligned on, everyone is aligned that the BBC's reputation needs to be actually underpinned by editorial independence, that is sacrosanct and I think it's really important that the charter enshrines that.

45:39Richard Osman:Well, anyway, but thank you for letting everyone ask that question because it's a question that has gone sort of unanswered. And it's interesting to hear that your day-to-day experience of the BBC and your day-to-day experience of the newsroom would not back up the suggestion that there is some sort of institutional bias on that board.

45:56Tim Davie:I don't think there's institutional bias in the BBC. And the board is there to support the BBC. I think the editorial power of the director general sorry I sound like some kind of maniac here but but it is is significant and essentially they're in you know we're in control as the executive I mean personally I you know one minute I'm a kind of right-wing implant with Tory roots the next moment I'm Britain's chief

46:22Marina Hyde:left-wing warrior you've got to just throw the ring back into Mount Doom Tim that's what you're

46:26Tim Davie:doing recently it's just too much power yeah well I I think actually it's it's highly distributive So if you look at it, and you know this, it's like I'm currently, as I sit, my life could be changed quite dramatically by the wrong decision of probably 100 editors as we speak. You just have to get the right people.

46:46Marina Hyde:Is it tiring all sorts of other people's faults always being your fault?

46:52Tim Davie:Yeah, I don't see it like that because I kind of take it personally but not to a point where I'm collapsing. I think you are, you can't be accountable for every or responsible for every single broadcast. But, you know, these public jobs have, I do believe in accountability. I do believe, you know, you stand up and counted on your record. And that's just, I'm very lucky to be in this job. You know, there are some tough bits. There's some lovely, I've had some amazing moments in this job. There's some wonders here. You're very lucky to do it. So you've also got responsibilities. I mean, there's no free lunch here.

47:26Tim Davie:This is a tough old job, but the great things in life tend to be tough.

47:31Richard Osman:Can I just, as a follow-up to my first elephant, because we talked about this idea that there's some right-wing bias on the board. There's also a very, very strong strain of thought in the absolute other direction, which is the BBC has a strong left-wing bias. So you've spoken to ideas of right-wing bias. You say it doesn't affect you in your day-to-day job and you don't see it. what about the suggestions of a left-wing bias in the BBC, particularly in BBC newsrooms? Again, I don't see...

48:03Tim Davie:So much of the world seems to be straining under this left-right construct, doesn't it? It's like, look at our politics. It's breaking down that whole thing, okay? And what I see, and I've been very... I say it from day one, I still see it as a challenge for institutions because, again, I really, really feel very deeply. There's two reallys there. That's how deeply I feel. The institutions are there to serve. And we have a crisis. It is a we should call it as a full on crisis that people do not trust too many of our institute. And in the UK, we're well ahead of the rest of the world. We hate to even be happy about things.

48:46Tim Davie:But, you know, it is a wonder that we have these institutions and they're there to serve. but trust is built and i'm semi-obsessed by this so prepare yourself is is trust is built by people absolutely believing that someone is acting their interest and they listen to them yeah and if you think about an old school broadcaster it broadcast yeah yeah i i think we're of an age where the bbc central challenge and you might think where the hell are you going because of the bias question but i think it relates to it which is if someone is not seen to listen and act in someone's interest then you've got a problem.

49:20Tim Davie:So it may not even be an active bias. It might just be, you just don't get it. And I think there has been too many instances where institutions and the BBC is definitely not exempt from this, where, call it what you will, metropolitan, a certain lens on life. I happen to think it's not that helped by left and right. It's just a view on life, a metropolitan view. You and I could walk out of here, go to a few restaurants and go, what's wrong with the world? It is a fatal place for institutions to be. That's why I push so much out. I mean, one of the things I'm proudest about is the number of apprentices in the BBC who come from, you know, different background.

49:55Tim Davie:We had 46 ,000 applications, I believe, to 288 places, which puts it in perspective. In terms of our diversity as an organization, the biggest thing that we've had trouble shifting is socioeconomic diversity. It's not protected characteristics. It's socioeconomic because you and I know, and I know you're passionate on this, this industry is not an easy one to get into. There's potentially more transient work in freelancing. I think there's a risk in that. And then if the local media, all the local newspapers are under, their economics are under real pressure, have you got that feeding kind of pipeline of talent coming through the organization?

50:31Tim Davie:And by talent, I don't mean presenters. I mean all talent coming through. You don't say talent anymore, I believe.

50:36Marina Hyde:Is that right?

50:37Tim Davie:I do say talent, but I refer to everyone. Oh, I see. As opposed to a certain subset of our community, which are presenters. Okay. Okay. But so to your point, Richard, I think there's more work to be done in terms of really understanding people from different backgrounds, people from different life experiences. That is a problem for the media industry. The media industry is about 15 % from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. I think the population is about mid-30s. That's a problem. So you say, what's the bias? Sometimes it's just the way you look at life. It's the way you come into an issue. It's what interests you.

51:16Tim Davie:It's your curiosity is stimulated in a certain direction. Your topic choice is much deeper than just a kind of pantomime left, right? It's an institutional flavor. And I've really tried to work on that. We are better than we've been, but I think that is a lot of work to do.

51:32Richard Osman:I've always taken it to be a class bias. And if I can just speak from experience, this idea that BBC sending things out to the nations and regions and what it means in a very real sense is, you know, I go up to Glasgow and Manchester and I work in an environment there where there are people who do not have to leave their hometown anymore. And they would have had to 15, 20 years ago. There are huge creative sectors which have been created because the BBC and ITV and Channel 4 have put money into those areas.

51:59Tim Davie:One of the things I'm most proud of is all those partnerships with the regions. If you go to Digber, Sulfur, you work, you know, go to the centre of Cardiff in Central Square. The issue is now we're into another level of debate, which is Cardiff is not Wales. Breaking news. Yeah. Says a man from, you know, Oxfordshire. Yeah. It's also what's happening in Aberystwyth, you know, in Bangor, what's the situation there? And I could go around Wales and say, okay, how are we building the talent to come through the organisation? There's an interesting tension, actually, because you can be too distributed in terms of your actual resources.

52:33Tim Davie:So you have to move around. Whereas what I'm really proud of on my watch is you can go to Cardiff and be a network editor in news. Yeah. Not in the Welsh newsroom. You are. And that is a massive change. There's network programs coming out of there. Great drama that's no longer kind of consigned. It used to exhaust me like, oh, you know, it's like a trust in terms of we don't want to put network out there. That's largely disappeared. The BBC superpower, and it relates to some of the conversation we had earlier, which is because I don't have to make a P &L work every quarter and turn up to a stock exchange and tell them how we're doing or not, I can actually make slightly longer term decisions, which may not be, if you like, the most economically tight in the short term, but make total sense longer term.

53:22Tim Davie:And actually, what I've tried to do in the BBC is, let's imagine a Venn diagram. You didn't think I was going there.

53:29Richard Osman:Yeah, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Venn diagrams up to now.

53:32Tim Davie:But what you're trying to do is say, what's in the public interest for public policy? It's useful working with the regional mayor, Richard Parker, in the West Midlands, going, okay, in Digbeth, we can be an anchor tenant there, bring up Silent Witness, bring up Marshaf, da-da-da. and do a partnership where we're both investing more money. Now, what you've got is that is absolutely driving our public purposes. What I've tried to do is migrate as much money, though, into a Venn diagram where the other side... The other side is actually really valued by audiences in every part of the UK. So actually, we've announced that Casualty will be not only staying in Roethlok outside Cardiff, but will actually be based in Wales.

54:14Tim Davie:So it'll be rooted in Wales, clearly of its place, just like Silent Witness is now in Birmingham, a Birmingham show. you know it's Birmingham that just builds the power of the show it's not a creative weakening I'm not compromising I don't see it as doing anyone a favour I think this whole thing do us a favour and move some money there that's not what we're doing we're trying to migrate as much of our money into that is not only good on our public purposes but really smart use of money to drive audience so that's what I've tried to do in the BBC

54:42Marina Hyde:What about the wider world? because obviously it is a huge job a lot of people asked us about the World Service Yes, indeed. Here's one from Stephen Kerr who says, do the changes made to the BBC World Service look with hindsight to have been mistaken, especially given the importance of soft power in today's global political maelstrom?

55:00Tim Davie:Thank you, Stephen. The answer is yes. I've spoken a lot about this. It is shocking what's going on around the world. I mean, part of what I try to do sometimes is lift us out of this UK bubble. I've got, I think, now 300 people in the BBC, largely in the World Service who cannot go home to their home country because they'd be arrested or face trouble because they're doing you know just their job.

55:28Marina Hyde:Why do you think so many successive governments have sort of failed to understand the importance of an organization that does that?

55:35Tim Davie:I think everyone supports the world. I've met anyone where I go you do understand China are spending billions you do understand that there's been interesting analysis of what might be called cognitive warfare, which is how people think, oh, you're all as bad as each other. And I think that's a long-term game being played by certain regimes to undermine democracy. Famously, Russia.

55:59Richard Osman:Russia, absolutely.

56:01Tim Davie:But there's others who are active. I mean, the flood of, you know, frankly, dangerous. I mean, there's AI slop and there's just dangerous propaganda. It's hundreds of millions of pounds. And it's absolutely about conditioning how we think. And I'm not sure, being provocative, of people nodding along. I don't think there's anyone. I can't think of it. I mean, there's probably someone you can find. But there's not many people I look at and go, do you realise that not only should we be protecting the World Service in the short term, and I think the government get that, but longer term, actually, I think we should be doubling the funding.

56:37Tim Davie:And absolutely, it's a UK national asset, but it's important to our national defence, our national reputation. Yeah, it's strategic. It's one of the soft parts. It's not just a fact. It's strategic. Okay. The problem is, just to your point about why don't we take it, I just think people, you know, if you look at the current funding, and there's always a problem, you know, the FCDO are really committed to the World Service. It's the Foreign Office. Sorry, the Foreign Office. They've increased funding. But in terms of a transformational budget increase, they're currently facing cuts in the FCDO.

57:15Tim Davie:as with life, it just gets hit with the current situation and the financial constraints.

57:20Marina Hyde:And yes, it's really quite inexpensive.

57:23Tim Davie:My view is someone, someone just needs to go, look, enough, we're going to make a big call here and support this thing properly. I honestly think it's so short-sighted not to do that.

57:33Richard Osman:Is that government, is that taxpayer or is that private sector?

57:37Tim Davie:I think it's government. I think you can cost, terrible words, but you can cost recover. through a bit of appropriate advertising on the news channel in the right market. But honestly, if you're going to be out there in Afghanistan, if you're going to have the Persian service, this is not – we're the best – I mean, I'm all for – we've built a£2 billion commercial arm. We're making money wherever we can appropriately, but there's not money in the news business in this way. It needs to be government. And if you want to make money in the news business, you might just get out alive and make some by having a subscription business in the US, which we're trying, but you're not going to do the world service without government funding.

58:16Tim Davie:And do I think it was a mistake to put it on the BBC licence fee payer? Absolutely. It was.

58:21Richard Osman:Can I ask you this question from Chloe Taylor? Because I do think it's interesting. I think it speaks to a lot of what is coming through behind all the things you're saying. She says, what's kept you at the BBC? Your comparative job at ITV Channel 4 or any other international broadcaster have paid millions. Is it dedication to public service?

58:42Tim Davie:God, that makes me sound extremely worthy. It's certainly purpose. It's purpose. I care about it. I mean, everyone knows me. I really care about it. I think I also am philosophically one of those people who says cliches are available. I sound like some kind of US self-help tape, but you only have one life. So I mean, I am extremely lucky. I get a good salary. we all know that actually happiness is often at the point where you're not going into the supermarket and worrying about how you make it work. I happen to come from a background where that was a bit, not hugely disadvantaged, but where household budget was a real challenge every month.

59:22Tim Davie:That is the reality for most households. If you got over that, it also goes to science. Happiness does not massively increase once you're over that point. Okay, The data is overwhelming. So bluntly, a bit of me is a rational brain and the emotional brain going, yes, you could get more money. But one thing I know is I care every day I get up. There are some days where you probably question your choice, but you get up and you're fired up. And also the variety. The other thing about life is as I look to the future, it's really interesting. I was talking to someone who did a high profile job and they said everyone just wants to hire you to get kind of what you were.

1:00:02Tim Davie:whereas I want to learn. Now the great thing about, you know, I was, I was marketing fizzy pop and I could have been in Connecticut in a nice house with a white picket fence with the hoop in the drive and with lots of money. But without being funny about it, I, one is I'm, I love this country kind of in a kind of weird obsessional way. And then the second thing is if you do something you care about, I have, you know, when I talk about audio music, I didn't know a lot about classical music. I listened to a bit, But this job allowed me to sit in the proms, watch Bitschkoff conduct a Mahler symphony with myself and three people watching.

1:00:38Tim Davie:And you can just, those memories are, they're priceless. What money are you going to put on those? Yeah. I mean, I've met people you wouldn't dream of in terms of from world leaders. That is not what you get if you're running a widget company. ITV, you might get a bit of it, but you get the idea. Yeah.

1:00:56Marina Hyde:Can I ask you a little bit about, I'm reading a really good book at the moment. by a guy called Michael Linton, who you probably know. I know Michael. Yeah, yeah. His book is about mistakes. I don't know if you've read it. It's really good.

1:01:07Tim Davie:Yeah.

1:01:08Marina Hyde:So he was the chief executive.

1:01:09Tim Davie:I could write a long one on that. Well, I was going to ask it.

1:01:11Marina Hyde:He was the chief executive of Sony Pictures at the time of the North Korean hack. And he greenlit the interview, the Seth Rogen comedy about North Korea, which precipitated the attack. And this is a book about mistakes, not failure, which I think is something different. and how that kind of explosive scandal impacted his home, his family, his whole industry. And for years, he literally couldn't bear to analyse what happened and would always kind of laugh it off on people board. Anyway, he eventually did. And he now knows that the reason he did that and what the mistake was, was that he basically greenlit that movie because he just got sick of being the guy who said no.

1:01:49Marina Hyde:And he wanted actors to like him. He wanted to be cool and he wanted to belong. I think it's kind of interesting because I think the Seth Rogen character in the studio has sort of imbibed quite a lot of that. And I just wondered... Great series, by the way. Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah, lovely to you. You may not have had time yet, but I wondered on your BBC mistakes, if you thought that any of those derived from bits of your personality like all of us do, and if you've had a chance to look back and think...

1:02:15Tim Davie:Yeah, it's a really good question. Personally, I'm more reflected on did we have the right people and the right process. There's a very dry answer, but I think it's not because I've been kind of yeehaw and blinded by stardom or like Seth in the studio. I think that's right. But, but here's the but, is sometimes you need a little time. I mean, you know, give me a break. I'm still on the job, yeah? So I'm still in the midst of it. I'm still on the tightrope. I can just see the cliff on the other side, Richard. But it's, so you, I will process those things and have a think.

1:02:52Marina Hyde:Have you had time to have a cultural life? You talked about the proms. Have you had time to have?

1:02:57Tim Davie:Yeah, well, yes and no. It's surprising. I mean, I'm pretty ferocious about the weekend.

1:03:04Marina Hyde:Yeah.

1:03:05Tim Davie:Okay. And my view is if you call me at the weekend. I thought you meant the band. No, not the weekend. I was like, that surprised me. No. Anyway, moving on. So that's one of my kids' ones. But I think you do need your time that's quiet. and I'm not a big fan of flap yeah people that also you know people come and say oh we got this and yeah well hold on I'm the one that's gonna have to deal with it I'm the one that's gonna do the interview not you yeah and you're conducting a lot of energy so I think people do need quiet time I mean honestly often the best time in a week is just quietly wandering down to the cafe sitting there for half an hour with a notebook and working out what you want to do and I still do that by the way I still spend a lot I do have quiet time now to your point about culture i'm a reader so i i love that's my background and i've never lost it since i studied so if if you know you're not if i'm not reading a novel or you know a book a book that i care about that is a problem for me so i escape that way and i'm a runner these things were really important by the way i mean i won't give the full resilience uh a speech but i think you need that stability if you're going to cope at all with these things because they are quite significant at times I absolutely think you need to consciously manage that not in a kind of over-organized way but just say I will need time to think quietly reflect if you can't get that calm I don't think you're going to last very long just you know I just don't think that works

1:04:32Richard Osman:can I ask you one final question from Anthony Jackson and he says what are your proudest

1:04:36Tim Davie:moments from your time as DG um probably three quick things one is the people I brought into the BBC that at the end of the day that is huge for me um the second thing is I think the BBC for audiences you'll all have your views listening you'll all be clapping steamed up but the BBC's still fiercely relevant and precious and it's that digital innovation we've done pushing out of London really really important and the last thing I'm really proud of is is we haven't talked enough about culture in this session because you know we've been through the highlight the highlights and the lowlights of, but there's also been quite a lot to deal with in terms of how, the acid test of a human being is when you give them power, how they behave.

1:05:22Tim Davie:And this industry has had a problem where people have had power. It's a weird old thing. You've got senior executives, presenters with power. I'm really proud. I think that really has been flushed out. It's been tough work and it's never, ever done. So you constantly watch it. But I really think we've got an environment in the industry where behaving in the wrong way, I nearly said something a bit more fruity in my language, but behaving like that.

1:05:49Marina Hyde:Difficult men, shall we put it that way.

1:05:51Tim Davie:But you know what? It's mainly been men. But I wouldn't go there. No, but I just think it's people who have abused power. And that is not acceptable. And I'm really, really proud that we've called a lot of it out. It's been difficult dealing with it. but I genuinely believe you can't behave in that way I'm fiercely proud of that because I think it's a kinder nicer placer to work so yeah there's a lot of things I'm proud of and then there's I could list a lot of programs that at the end of the day it's the work as well so you know but you can't list programs

1:06:25Richard Osman:because everyone who makes every other program will be listening going oh

1:06:28Tim Davie:that's quite a lot of people to offend I know

1:06:30Richard Osman:so I'll quit while I'm behind we know his eyes are saying House of Games I see that Tim thank you so much that was a pleasure and best of luck in what you do next as well I'm sure whatever it is it will be very interesting and thank you so much listeners for those amazing questions and super balanced as well and interesting and I thought there were so many we could have got to absolutely proud yeah absolutely

1:06:54Marina Hyde:thank you very much thank you very much

1:06:56Richard Osman:thank you Tim

1:07:35Tim Davie:We'll see you next time. at participating locations only.

1:08:08Marina Hyde:Everyone, take your style quiz today at stitchfix.com.