What Can TV Learn From Podcasts?

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1:21Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. How are you, Marina? I'm very well. How are you? I'm not bad. Have you had a nice week? I have had a super week, thank you. Because each day brings me closer to the day that the election is over. And it's really not so long now. What are we talking about this week? We are talking about, well, do you know what? The Euros and the election have led to an absolute boom in an industry that was booming anyway. It's an industry you may know something about, and that is podcasting. So we're going to talk a little bit about podcasting and what's happening with it and how it is affecting television.

1:58We are also going to talk about something which we meant to talk about last week, but we didn't get quite around to it. The Trump movie, which is a prequel story about Trump's life, not being able to get a distributor or maybe being about to get one. Donald Trump, not Judd Trump. Yes, we should always be very clear on this. And we're also talking about a movie entirely written by ChatGPT that was going to have its premiere quite recently and has been pulled and is now struggling to find a new distributor. So we'll talk about that. And I'm also going to talk about why we film Christmas Day editions of television programmes in the middle of June.

2:31Christmas in June. Christmas in June. In fact, we filmed Christmas on the longest day of the year, June the 21st, I think it was. So we'll talk about that. But should we start with podcasts? Now, there's been this extraordinary storm of the Euros and the election at the same time. and people may know they may not know always right at the very top of the podcast charts are the politics shows and the football shows so there's some in the gold hanger stable the rest is football there's the rest is politics there's the news agents there's the guardian weekly football show there's stick to football there's the neville and so on and the numbers in the last couple of weeks have gone absolutely insane in a way that shows that this is an industry that has genuinely reached a very interesting maturity in that it is now absolutely in every part of our life, and it's where we turn to first when something big happens.

3:21And firstly, I think that's quite interesting, so we'll talk about why people are turning to podcasts, but secondly, it's really bleeding through into television and how television now cover football and how they cover, more interestingly, how they cover politics. We know our very good friend slash boss Gary Lineker was getting in trouble for calling the England team, the S-word, on his podcast. And that's the interesting bleed-through there because the BBC presenting team is Lineker, Shearer and Micah Richards and they also have their own thing which is completely separate to the BBC which is the rest is football.

3:55But the two are of course going to bleed across. And if you're Harry Kane... And the ITV presenting team is in large part made up from stick to football with Gary Levell, with... Roy Keane. Yeah, so it's quite interesting that those people who have such successful podcasts have sort of almost taken over the broadcast studios. They haven't taken over because they were in there before, but it's now because they have these two things that are very different mediums, really. Yes. But there is bleed through. And was he right to be upset about it? Funnily enough, the way football has been covered in this country was the kind of precursor to podcasts anyway, because you've always had pundits.

4:32They've always been able to speak their mind. They've always sort of chatted. There's been a bit of banter. It's very, very like a podcast. You always get people who I think are sociopaths who say, honestly, for the football, I don't want any commentary. I don't need anyone talking about it afterwards. I just want to watch the match. You think, oh, really? I mean, that to me is a huge red flag. You know, I love the comment. If Fulham River on telly, England on telly, I'm there an hour beforehand because I want to hear every single thing that is said. But it's absolutely the precursor to what podcasts are, which is people who are interested in the world, people who know things about the world, people who've been involved in the world, chatting to each other and having a sort of a relationship that over the weeks viewers get to know and get to understand and get to know the quirks and peculiarities so of course football is going to bleed out into a podcast immediately but if you're on sky or itv or bbc there are certain responsibilities that you have because people are switching on you're inside people's homes there's not very different to a podcast you have not specifically chosen them and want to engage with them it is where the england game is being shown yeah to pick an example and those are those kind of big national moments there's a sense of occasion well i mean when i first started covering football the print writers would wear a jacket and tie when covering england games which i found hilarious it's like you know no i'll get you know but there was a sort of sense of occasion thing and there is that sort of when people lots of people haven't asked those people necessarily into home it's not like picking on a podcast thinking i love these guys i'm gonna listen to them every week they are there because they have the broadcast rights you have to address all the different groups it's exactly it i'm always saying this with comedians as well it's that if people buy a ticket to your show say what you want yeah say absolutely what you want if they are offended they can walk out whatever but they they know what they're getting so they paid their money whereas if you're on a channel 4 show or a bbc2 show you are in somebody's living room so there's certain jokes that's you know just don't do just don't do it and podcast is exactly the same gary allen and Micah can say exactly what they want on their podcast because people have chosen to download it.

6:34They've chosen to listen to it. They're listening to it because they love it. They listened last week. They listened the week before. Same with Stick to Football. People are getting what they want. And on the actual show, you see on the actual show, they are a little bit gentler. And if we talk a little bit about people who present the news, there was a sort of big podcast show in London maybe last month, and they had a lot of BBC presenters, news presenters who also do podcasts for the BBC as well. And Justin Webb was particularly articulate about this saying, it's very difficult because we didn't used to broadcast like this.

7:05And now we do podcasting, but I also present the Today programme. And suddenly you're in the middle of the Today programme, you think, hang on, I've sort of, this is live, and I'm doing it like a podcast. They may seem to lots of people like, oh, it's just audio, isn't it? It's just a different form of radio. It's not. And they all said, actually, it's great what podcasting has done for broadcasting in that the worst thing about our industry is that when people talk in a way they think they're supposed to be because they are broadcasting yes they sort of imitate broadcasters whereas the best broadcasters who've broken all the way through are not really like that and they're their authentic selves and that's why people sort of are drawn to them and they sort of believe them and they trust them at moments of national crisis or joy or whatever it is for example that's why we always love watching paxman but then everyone who tried to be paxman that's harder to watch that's people that was a tough watch yes the thing about paxman is not be like paxman it's be like yourself because He was not being like Paxman.

7:56He was Paxman. And I think also you have got a whole generation of people coming up who have just watched YouTube and TikTok and things like that and find the formality of broadcast so bizarre and that people are talking, nobody talks like that. And podcasting is much closer to the way that people talk and it's much more a voice in tune with those currents that draw people to YouTube and TikTok and things like that. So it feels... So the interesting, the just in web thing, and this is the thing I think sometimes people don't understand, when you see on social media, when they talk about the BBC and they talk about news organisations, and they say, why are they not taking this person to task?

8:30Why are they not saying that? Why are they not saying this, I said on Twitter? And you think, if you had the first clue of the strictures that are placed on every single news broadcaster in this country, the things they are not allowed to do, not allowed to say, the biases they are accused of from all sides, so that the lines they have to follow and by the way it's a nightmare if they don't follow them that is why the news media is like the news media is that's why they're not asking the question that you would like them to ask which is based on hearsay that someone else said on social media they can't do that right you haven't worked out if it's definitely true you haven't followed it through you haven't seen four different people saying yes no that definitely happened so they cannot do any of those things if you listen to the news agents now that's emily make this and john sopal and lewis goodall and Lewis Goodall, the joy with which they are now able to give their opinions and which they are now able to step over lines, which when they're at the BBC, they weren't not stepping over lines because the BBC is right wing or fascist or the BBC is left wing or whatever.

9:29They weren't stepping over lines because it's a nightmare if you do. Every single time you do it there are enquiries, every time you complain to the BBC you have to follow it through. And it's right that it's a nightmare. Yeah, absolutely. Impartiality is so important and people have all sorts of views about BBC and partiality and mistakes that have been made in recent years. And maybe some of those are on the money and maybe some of them aren't. But we have a far, far less polarised, as we've previously discussed, news media in this country than anywhere else. The secret about football and about news podcasts in that way is, by and large, and there's a caveat to this, but by and large, those podcasts are the thing that happen once the microphones are turned off in the studio.

10:08So in the studio, you'll talk about England and how they played. and you have to be cautious and you have to be respectful because you do know that it has a big impact on the team and people will be hearing it and listening to it. When the microphone is switched off, you can say what you really feel. And that is what happens with podcasts. And the same with news ones is that once you've interviewed the minister and you throw to the weather, the thing that you are then saying to each other, by and large, is what happens in podcasts. Now, there's a further limit to that, of course, which is, like with us, this is just how we talk anyway, apart from when we libel people endlessly, which, of course, as soon as a microphone goes off in any studio, everyone gets libeled because if you give your opinion on someone, you know, without it being on air, you can pretty much say what you want.

10:52But that idea that the people who you are listening to have a slightly different view of the one they are allowed to say, A, that is what should happen. We shouldn't hear their untrammeled opinion because it's a national broadcast, whether it's ITV or Channel 4 or BBC. we should not be hearing just their unfiltered opinions even if you agree with them because there's loads of people who don't agree with them and you wouldn't want to hear the unfiltered opinions of someone you disagreed with but i think the really interesting thing is political podcasts and i think if you look at the rest of this politics you look at the news agents they are genuine phenomena yeah they are huge and they're huge in a very peculiar way because we've been told for many many years that people are not interested in politics they certainly don't want to hear dry, dusty old talking heads talking about politics.

11:39Do you know what? People do want to hear that. People want to hear people who know what they're talking about, talking about politics, talking about issues. What they don't want to hear is what we're currently served up on traditional news media, which is people from the different parties being asked questions, forced to defend themselves, not giving answers. Ponditry in its purest sense, perhaps. Well, it's actual candidates, actual people running for election, arguing with each other in a way that that is not illuminating to anyone. It would be exactly like if you're watching Match of the Day and someone's talking about Manchester United and saying, the thing about Manchester United is we have the best defence in Europe.

12:16And you go, well, you don't. Because if you look at the numbers, no, no, look over, no, please, listen, I didn't interrupt you, Gary Neville, so please don't interrupt me. If you look over five years, actually, and if you look at inflation, actually we have the best defence in Europe. No one wants to watch that. See, people want disagreement rather than argument, I think. Again, you have ex-pros talking about football. And you have ex-pros talking about football for a reason, which is they can be honest and they can be sanguine and they can understand the limitations of the team that they played for and the strengths of the team the other team played for.

12:48That's why you have ex-pros talking about it rather than you have current players. If you had an actual Man United player, an actual Liverpool player on Match of the Day, what can they do? They have to say, no, I love the gaffer. You can't do anything else. We all know if you work for a company and you talk in public about that company, you have to be respectful because you've got to go back there the next morning. And that goes for whether it's us or whether it's current footballers or whether it's politicians. But that is not of interest to people. The interesting thing about podcasts is the market is telling the political media now what it is that people actually like.

13:19Can I add a bit of a caveat on tone? Because tone is one of the most fascinating things for me. It's really interesting to me how if you strike the right tone, you can have absolutely nothing very much to say, but people love it. And then if you get the tone wrong, you can have all sorts of engines sometimes something comes along with a tone that really speaks to the times and there's something about that type of podcasting that does and i was trying to think of something analogous it isn't podcasting and i thought when all those blogs came out nick denton started the gawker blogs and he had so many different ones in the stable they had ones that covered silicon valley one that covered showbiz all those things but that particular tone was so definitive in the sort of noughties and all sorts of traditional media print media started copying it even though that they were these were very young people writing funny blogs and they were you know it was snark i suppose and they were posting 10 or 12 times a day but clever snark but clever snark and it somehow was a tone that spoke to the times there is clearly something about this type of tone what i worry a little bit about is it becoming the omni tone i slightly was watching roy keen after the england performance on sunday night and thinking i would have listened to you on the biden debate i would have yeah i would have heard you on that you know and there's a temptation that it's all that kind of viral punditry moment.

14:35I think that's exactly right. I think, listen, I don't want the Today Show to be like a podcast for sure. I don't want the Daily Politics to be like a podcast. But what I want the producers of that to do is feel emboldened by what they're seeing people enjoying to go, maybe I don't have to do these stunt bookings. Maybe there are smarter bookings. Maybe I can book people, professors for goodness sake, who really understand British political culture. Maybe I can find a character who people love to listen to they can agree or disagree but they love to listen to that person maybe that's where bookings can come from now because bookings for the last five years on political shows have come from one place only and that's sensationalism it is difficult though when your day job and your podcast job perhaps map almost entirely onto each other i can see why harry kane might think yeah i can still hear what you're saying it's a fascinating transitional moment where both of those things for itv and the bbc their podcasts absolutely bleed into the tv coverage and i think it's tough for the presenters.

15:29I think it's tough for the producers. I think it's probably easy for the podcasters because the numbers are going up and up and up. But it's a really, really interesting moment. And it's fascinating to see what the fallout is. I think for football, the fallout would be less so because I think the two things map much more interestingly and easily. I think for politics, I think that this huge podcast revolution would be interesting to see the election coverage this time because you've got the rest is politics guys on Channel 4. you've got Ed Balls and George Osborne on ITV it's going to start bleeding in more and more and more because if you're not the BBC you might as well do it like a podcast to be honest but a really really interesting time and as I say these podcasts are genuinely doing great business and that intimacy and what have you and you hope that television learns the correct lessons from it for example don't put podcasts on television they've tried that a few times and I think everyone on each side of that thinks the only one where we thought it worked and we have actually talked about this before but not perhaps on the podcast the Traitors podcast worked very well on screen it was like a chat show they pretended it was a TV show they had such a busy set and there were people sitting on sofas chatting so it did slightly feel like you were watching a sort of Graham Norton type show but just talking about the Traitors so that worked yeah you can't do the thing people love to watch podcasts on YouTube because on YouTube you know there's a visual medium you understand what you're watching television there's a weird price of entry you have to pay which is at least be lit and have a set although interesting the podcast version of it slightly suffers because they are different mediums i know people don't think they're different mediums but there's a free formness to podcasting i mean we're having a conversation here that on tv they'd have wrapped up a long time ago but this i don't know 1986 yeah they really would have gone yes marina could just tell richard to wind up a little bit um but you know there's a free formness there's not a time constraint whereas tv is very you know you're getting counts in your ear all the time you know you've got who you've got to throw to and so you know the podcast version of it actually didn't feel like you're right i watched it only as a tv show yeah and so i'm i'm talking out of my ass and i don't know what it actually sounded like you can't have it both ways is i guess the answer yeah they are totally different mediums you have to respect that and not just think oh we'll just buy that in and treat it like it's the same see on television someone will be going should marina really say she's talking out of her ass is that do we it'd be like 15 people in the gallery saying is that okay to say she's talking about out of her ass and they'd turn around to the bbc commissioner back and the BBC Commissioner, worried about their boss to go, or maybe just get her to retake saying she's talking out of her bottom.

17:52And I'm like, oh, God. And that's why TV is different to podcasts. Yeah. Because you were talking out of your arse. Yeah, and you will hear that. And listen, we can cover the economics of podcasts at some other point, but on that note, should we go to an advert? Let's go right now to an advert. At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL.

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19:21Welcome back. What next, Marina? I think we're going to talk about films. We were meant to get some of these last week, but we didn't. I would like to talk first about the Trump movie. This is called The Apprentice, and it's the story, it's a sort of origin story of Trump, really, back when he was a kind of baby real estate mogul with this kind of dreadful mob liar, a guy called Roy Cohn, who this movie would certainly suggest taught him everything he knew. And it's got Sebastian Stan, the Winter Soldier, Pam and Tommy he is the young Donald Trump and Kendall Roy Jeremy Strong is Roy Cohn now it had its premiere at Cannes obviously because it's an election year and therefore it would have a lot of attention by the way everything gets an eight minute standing ovation at Cannes if you open a packet to Chris someone will give you eight minutes of applause okay so having said that it was generally critically light but it cannot find a distributor now none of the big studios or the streamers despite the fact this movie had a lot of buzz I wonder why I wanted to go near it.

20:18Now, as soon as the film was shown at Cannes, they sent cease and desist letters. Basically, all these people are scared. And last week, it seemed as though a deal was on the point of being done with a distributor called Briarcliff, run by a guy called Tom Wartenberg. And he's distributed other problematic or complicated or controversial things. Fahrenheit 9-11, the Michael Moore documentary about sort of George Bush and 9-11. and Dogma, which is that Kevin Smith sort of religious satire, and the, what is it called, W, the Oliver Stone, George W. So he doesn't mind a bit of controversy. He doesn't mind a bit of it.

20:51Quite the opposite. They've got another issue, which is that one of the people who backed the film, by the way, this film has got to 45 producers, which tells you a lot of something about independent film, which is that these people, by the way, have not sat there and thought, have you got the catering trucks? Have you got this? As always, you've got to patchwork together all these sources of funding in order to get this film made. That's why, like, at the beginning of a film, when you sit through all the things saying a Canal Plus production in association with. The Norwegian film. In association with.

21:17Also thanks to. And the more of them there are, the longer the gestation period of that movie was. Just the agony of trying to get that thing to the screen. Anyhow, this has clearly been the case to some extent here. But there is a Trump backer who his company at an arm's length sort of backed this or gave some of the money, quite a significant part of the money. And I think was told by the director, who's a guy called Ali Abbasu, who said it's going to be a bit of a punk rock kind of historical movie. but it's going to be kind of down the middle. Anyway, this guy saw a sort of truncated 20 or 30 minute cut of it and absolutely lost his mind.

21:47So they're at this sort of stalemate. So they're thinking people are trying to basically buy this firm out, but they want to get it out in an election year. Now, you're probably thinking, well, why are the studios so completely wet? But Hollywood is terrified of Trump, and they're probably even more terrified after Biden's disastrous debate performance last week. Trump does not want this movie released. He says it's election interference by elite Hollywood powers or something. Absolutely. Anyhow, but the studios, are they right to feel afraid of Trump? But if you look at what actually happens, you think, oh, this will be great.

22:20Even if it's on Fox News all day and they're screaming about this movie, it's all publicity. But actually, what happens with these things is that they can make a lot of trouble for you. The MAGA crowd. If you see what happened with Ron DeSantis down in Florida, Don't say gay law that you weren't allowed to promote gender teaching or homosexuality teaching in school. Disney sort of belatedly opposed it. By the way, they did the worst possible thing. It had already passed, but they sort of belatedly opposed it. And DeSantis said, I'm going to go after your... They had a special law basically to be the government of all the land around their park.

22:53It was called the Reedy Creek Improvement District. Well, let me tell you, he said, I'm going to repeal it, and it no longer exists. So if you're one of the big studios or a big financier, Essentially, when the movie's been made, it's ready to be distributed, the costs associated with opening a movie like that across America and then across the world can be$20,$30 million, something like that. Maybe a little bit more if it's opening in more cinema. So they are going to people saying, would you give us$20,$30 million to fund this movie? And they're going to send that to every single studio. So every single studio is sitting there going, well, I've seen the movie.

23:26Is it going to make us money anyway? is it going to make my life demonstrably difficult for the next year yes it is maybe will someone else have the bravery to open this movie maybe they will probably they won't yeah if you were sitting on a 30 million dollar fund would you recommend financing the rest of this movie it's made and it's ready to go and yes i would we will by the way we'll be able to see it in europe because it's got european distributors it's got great distributors in some of asia it's got lots of places that's all i care about yeah that's all we care about that's where we're going to watch it but if the deal gets done, they want to get it out in sort of September or October.

23:58So not on a front at last minute pre-election run. So it'd be interesting to see, but it's kind of extraordinary that a movie that's clearly good with great actors in it, giving brilliant performances, and is very, you know, on the money and is interesting and is about now, cannot find it distributed because Hollywood is afraid of Trump. Yes. And that's often how censorship works. And the way we talk about soft power, like, you know, the BBC sort of displaying soft power across the world and the World Service being an amazing thing for the UK. The soft power of the right often shows itself here, which is coming after people in the law courts.

24:29If there was a feeling that Biden was going to win the election, you might find some bravery because actually you'd be sitting on a huge film. Yeah, like Disney, they'd become very brave after the event. But given that I think the feeling afoot is that Trump is probably going to walk it now. Yeah, I suspect they won't see it anytime soon. I'm not sure it's entirely clear he's going to walk it but even so we're much smaller than it would be if one of the bigger people had done it um but Trump has said you know I will come after all of these people and so you think you're going to have the Department of Justice the Commerce Department all up in your business and you will do I mean what's in it for him not to do it listen we understand you know with podcasts the BBC don't want the Daily Mail coming after them but uh if you're a big studio you really you really don't want the president the Department of Justice just coming everything no it's going to be very difficult but this is why they're kowtowing and they are afraid but in other interesting distribution news the movie we talked about recently the Coppola megalopolis movie has got a distributor I think Coppola said something like I'm confident they will apply the same tender love and care given to Apocalypse Now because Lionsgate ended up distributing it we distributed Apocalypse Now now and it's 45th astounding year of revenue and appreciation it's like I'm not quite sure that this one's going to go that same distance however and they've got to find quite odd things they've got to find the live action actor who at one point comes onto the sort of stage in front of the screen and addresses the adam driver character for every screening so that so yeah in the screening there's literally a an actor in the in the movie theater or the cinema we might call it yeah who addresses the adam driver character through the screen okay you know maybe they will drop that element of the film i don't know i would find that awkward let us talk now about this ai movie the movie that has been written by chat gpt it's called the last screenwriter and it was given a 17 word prompt chat gpt and it wrote the script in four days um and it's a story about a screenwriter called jack who was celebrated but he's got a maybe he's got writer's block or something and he gets in he encounters a sort of state-of-the-art ai system that surpasses him and he uses it and he becomes extraordinarily successful but quite understandably he also has some sort of existential crisis now this has been performed by real actors lit by real humans all of that but the script is by ChatGPT.

26:42And the director, who is a guy called Luisi, one word, Luisi, said that he really wanted people to see it and because he wanted to start a debate. And yet the Prince Charles Cinema in London was going to have the premiere on a sort of Sunday night a couple of weeks ago and pulled it. And there is no clear idea of when this will get a screening. I would like to see it. I'd love to see it. The Industrial Revolution or whatever took decades and decades to happen. This is going to be incredibly quick. And people keep saying, yeah, you know, we should talk about it. But you're talking about it like you've got time.

27:11I think it's really good to show people a movie say by the way this is written by and then you are forced to confront it you may say well it's hopeless and it's not very good and it's like don't worry in three months it will be a lot better that's what this guy Luis has done he's not just some hack who's going I can't be bothered to make a film I'll get AI to make it for me so that's not what this story is it's a guy just going you know what this is what happens if you do that the prompt that he gave was write a plot to a feature-length film where a screenwriter realises he is less good than artificial intelligence in writing.

27:46That was the thing he gave. And then four days later, he gave him lots of other prompts as well as it came through and then literally just filmed exactly what came out of GPT. And the reviews, people who've seen it, saying, look, you can sort of, you know, bits of it hold together, but it's a nonsense and it keeps repeating itself and it's a mess and there's no structure. And I think that's the point that... I mean, I've seen quite a lot of action movies like that, let's be honest. Yeah, exactly. But that's the point that Louise is making is come along and watch this because this is where artificial intelligence is now.

28:16And talk now about it. Talk now about it because we can see that it's not right. We can see that it doesn't work but we can see, you know, we can see that there's human beings also behind various bits of it. But I think he's trying to do something interesting rather than... So do I. And I think we should see it and I think it's a big mistake to have pulled it because that's another form of censorship and obviously many real humans were involved in the making of this movie. But I really think people should talk about this stuff right now. there is such a lot of weird displacement activity. All studios, just in the same way that news publishers should be working together.

28:45I mean, the New York Times is suing OpenAI about saying that, you know, you've crawled all over our content and you've done this and we can tell from our own AIs that your AIs are doing this. And that's how you have to set an AI to catch an AI. It's absolutely mad. There's a film. Yeah, exactly. Everyone should be banding together, talking about it right now. It is going to happen very quickly. You do not have decades to consider it and think, well we've always embraced innovation in hollywood well that's the thing so the movie is interesting because it is clearly ai currently is incapable of structuring a 90 minute two hour movie well i would argue that guy richie is so but like like guy richie's real so it's incapable of doing that at the moment as you say it won't it won't be for long but it's already taken over large parts underneath the industry you know the world of editing the world of sfx all this there's lots of AI stuff.

29:35Toys R Us just released their first ever completely AI advert. Did they? And again, they did it in a blaze of publicity. It's not one of those ones where they go, let's just save a bit of money and do this by AI. They absolutely trumpeted it and say, this whole advert is done by AI. And you watch it, it's sort of, I mean, it is what it is. It's quite creepy. And obviously, there have been a lot of human beings involved with it afterwards because AI cannot control everything. But it's got AI music, it's got AI voiceover and the chief marketing officer of Toys R Us and this is the point that you're making which is it's already with us she said um the train left the station and we just decided to be the first ones on it yeah but if you don't think it'll come for chief marketing officers jobs as well this is the thing that all the studio executives I think in many cases are thinking well maybe we will use this a bit it's like oh you don't think it's coming for your job as well I mean really wake up okay wake up why do you think uh people are sticking their heads in the the sand.