WTF is Clavicular - And Should You Care?

5:36Richard Osman:Is he already over?

5:38Clavicular:Looks maxing is the key. I mean, like all things that call themselves life philosophies nowadays, they don't actually, they're not worthy of the tag philosophy. But essentially what his view is and what the view of the kind of looks, by the way, allying yourself to a hashtag is very, very clever because your content will always be surfaced, which is part of the reason why he's become big. It's essentially the philosophy or his particular take on it as the philosophy is women no longer depend on men for money or lots of things that they used to depend on or even status. Consequently, there is a smaller pool of men who will ever sort of have meaningful relations with women.

6:19Clavicular:And the only thing that really makes sense, here's the leap, is extreme physical optimization in this kind of crapsack world that you have to live in. And that you'll hear some words that come from the sort of pick up artist community, some words from the sort of incel community. unless you're born a sort of like Brad Pitt, a complete Chad, like a sort of platonic ideal of a kind of great looking guy, then you must work to make yourself good looking enough for women to be interested in you.

6:51Richard Osman:You must, as it were, max your looks. You must max your looks. What I call looks maxing.

6:55Clavicular:Well, everything is maxing that. And there's all sorts of, as I say, there is this whole arcane vocabulary. Like everything, it has to have a label put on it nowadays very, very quickly. And so it seems like it, in my view, it seems like it's much less evanescent than it actually is. So there are a whole separate, you know.

7:11Richard Osman:Can I describe to people at home what Braden Peters looks like? This is how I would describe him. He's six foot two. He weighs 180 pounds. He has a 31 inch waist. His bachromial width, and that is basically the span of the clavicle. Who knew that was important? it is, is 19.5 inches, which is pretty much perfect if you want to be classically handsome. He has a mid-face ratio, which is derived by dividing the distance from the pupil to the mouth by the distance between the pupils of 1.07. Don't need to tell you that's good. And his chin to philtrum ratio. Your philtrum is the bit above your lip.

7:48Richard Osman:Can you guess his chin to philtrum ratio?

7:51Clavicular:Surprise me.

7:52Richard Osman:2.6. So that's a handsome dude.

7:55Clavicular:Yeah, there's an enormous amount of bullshit maths, kind of eugenics adjacent nonsense. Oh, it's eugenics adjacent to this for sure. So Luxmaxing is this form of self-optimisation, but often in his hands, in really quite extreme forms, he says he kind of constantly creates minor microfactors by hammering his cheekbones so that they become more pronounced. there's this whole peptides injection culture and people are buying this black market off market peptides and trying to kind of optimize themselves that way um that obviously there's masses and masses of working out but there's a huge there's the huge fake maths of it all these as you said the measuring of all the face and the this and that and the idea that they're all these perfect ratios it's almost like i've been i mean the whole point is i suppose people saying i've been shut out of these things there must be a mathematical answer to it there must The maths of me not getting laid.

8:50Clavicular:Yeah. Algorithmically, can you get me laid, please? Because this is all it really is. But this is actually, you know, as I said before, women have, this is making money off the male gaze. Men making money off the male gaze. Women have made money off the female gaze for a long time. Oh, they haven't made money, but they've been used to make money. People saying, you know, if you're ill, let me sell you the cure.

9:16Richard Osman:Yeah. and it's the listen we probably don't need to say this but in case there's anyone listening who needs to hear it it will not make you happy this is not the route to happiness in any way whatsoever if you think it's funny that is great watch it if it makes you feel bad about yourself absolute guarantee this is not the way to make you happy the way to make you happy is to you know be interested in the world be interested in human beings but ask women about it because they've been doing about it

9:45Clavicular:for literally thousands of years and they're still doing it. So saying it won't make you happy is meaningless. Unfortunately, that's sadly not the way we can deal with this because women have been doing it for thousands of years and they're still buying into their own unhappiness.

9:59Richard Osman:Let me speak to women as well. Women. I think they know.

10:03Clavicular:And of course he has a sort of online university, like lots of people in the sort of manosphere where you can learn all these things. He's sort of evolved to the status of, to the sort of, you know, self-care status of a kind of 18th century Japanese geisha. This is really, this is a grim way to live. I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this.

10:24Richard Osman:Okay, go on.

10:25Clavicular:Which I know you love to hear. He honestly reminds me of one of those incredibly homophobic Republican senators of yesteryear who were eventually always picked up for soliciting in a men's bathroom. Oh, yeah. Yeah, really. I mean, I hope he ends up living a more happy and evolved life.

10:44Richard Osman:I mean, the online right is so deeply homoerotic. It's beyond. But to the extent, they must know.

10:53Clavicular:Do they not notice?

10:54Richard Osman:They must do. They must do. They must do. It's the single most homoerotic sphere. But I don't think they've noticed it. Even more so than ice hockey.

11:02Clavicular:Yeah. And they don't even know. When someone like Nick Fuentes, who is going to be, who is a kind of awful, horrific, sort of really far right edgelord, one of these guys. when they're talking all the time about sort of hating women and the way they hate women, it sort of feels like, guys, you should just get together. Why not be with a perfect person, a man, and not with women who you clearly despise? But anyway, to get back onto it, the whole physical self-optimisation thing, he believes, or does he believe, that you can sort of ascend in the terminology of their thing. Yeah, it's like a sort of physical form of rapture where you eventually, if you work really hard on smashing your cheeks with hammers and stuff, you can eventually get more sleighs.

11:46Clavicular:This is the slang for having sex with women. Conquering women.

11:50Richard Osman:Do you know what? The only sleigh I'm interested in is Santa's. You know what I mean?

11:54Clavicular:I agree. He's mispelled it completely, of course. And as I say, there's extreme medical stuff. The peptides thing is odd. He says he's been on steroids since he's 14. You can believe all of this, though, because these are people who've grown up in a Silk Road era and you could get anything you liked online. And you clearly can now because the whole peptides thing, which he's a really big pusher of, is a huge kind of unregulated or off books or illegal thing that has been flooding into... People can get hold of this stuff. And he pushes the idea of taking it.

12:26Richard Osman:Well, he started, I think, yeah, like 14, 15, where he was buying testosterone on the internet because he said, well, it's like a cheat code to whatever it is he needs to be, which, by the way, is not what anybody needs to be. but maybe listen he's filling a hole like is that's what he needed and his parents found it and they said no you can't do this and then so he started getting it you know um without them knowing and so that's where he began this journey and as you say that it sort of has its origins in 4chan and you know the incel community and and all of those things and so firstly you know he's he's trying to make himself look as handsome as possible in in uh a very very mainstream white version of what attractive might be.

13:12Richard Osman:And then he starts being a sort of advocate for it. And as you say, live streaming, you know, streams for eight hours a day. But, you know, he's making$100 ,000 a week.

13:22Clavicular:He must be in the gym for eight hours a day as well, because you can't. Anyway, there are elements of tragedy in it. Elements? Well, I mean, a lot of elements. Yeah, but equally, when you're sort of unpleasant, it's slightly, you know, you're an easy villain. but it's a sort of Darwinian struggle to get laid. He says things like he puts boxes around his house so that when one of his sleighs comes home with him, he can sometimes stand on the box just at opportune moments so he looks taller. I mean, you have to laugh at this. But then there are sort of elements of comedy, which I quite enjoy. He says he's completely uninterested in politics.

14:01Clavicular:Okay, we'll see. that quote that I was at the top of this item when I was saying I was looking for a quote what was the thing he said about Vance he said that in a sort of 2028 face-off in the US presidential election a notional one between California Governor Gavin Newsom and J.D. Vance he would obviously go for Newsom because he said Newsom was a 6 '3 mogger we're going to get to mogging and Vance was subhuman, obese and has a recessed side profile

14:28Richard Osman:he said, you know what

14:30Clavicular:He hasn't said anything about Trump, but he should because there's a lot to say there. There's so much to say there. Go on, say something about it, you pussy. So, morging, we must talk about morging. Morging just means you've bested someone physically in a sort of side-to-side contest.

14:46Richard Osman:And by the way, you mean by being more handsome than him?

14:48Clavicular:By being more handsome or being more ripped than him or being whatever it is. Okay.

14:52Richard Osman:So, he will, on his live stream, stand next to somebody who is unaware that he's standing next to them to make that person look unattractive and him look attractive. That's the idea of mogging.

15:03Clavicular:Yeah. Or just unintentional moments. And let's get to that.

15:07Richard Osman:Who would have thought the word mog could have got worse than it's been a few years ago?

15:11Clavicular:I know. I know Jacob, the good one. Anyhow, but also, I suppose one of the reasons why we're talking about him today, because apart from you've seen him in lots of places, but is he also already over? Because something happened.

15:25Richard Osman:When you say, by the way, you see him in lots of places, I think this is the thing for lots of people who listen to this thing is, if you are very online, he is everywhere. If you're not particularly online, he is nowhere at all.

15:35Clavicular:No, I don't think that's right. I think he has been mainstreamed in the last fortnight.

15:40Richard Osman:Exactly. I had not heard about him until this week because he has become so massive and he's on every single, everyone else's live stream. And you know the thing with these implements is they multiply themselves by going on each other's streams and going on each other's feeds.

15:55Clavicular:It's a huge amount of how you get clouted is by collaborating.

15:58Richard Osman:And his shtick, which is what it is, is an interesting one. And it's writable about. And he absolutely commits to the bit. He's not going to go, yeah, I think maybe it would be interesting about masculinity. And maybe we should be more handsome. He absolutely 100 % commits. So he's the perfect shape and form of a phenomenon. He's the perfect shape and form of someone where everyone at the same time goes, oh, what's this new thing? And who's this new weird guy doing it? So he's got massive, and as you say, the big newspapers, legacy media has started writing and talking about him in the last two weeks, which I assume means it's already over, but you will there.

16:34Clavicular:Yeah, we can talk about the online moment that suggests that something, because it's such a sort of tightrope. If you're so extreme and you're so judgmental, you run such a risk of if one small embarrassing thing happens to you. Now, he was doing a live stream at Arizona State University, and he was obviously doing what he always does, which is go to the gym and talk to all the frat boys. Anyway, and there was a frat house leader who happened to be standing next to him. And the frat house leader just had a better physical look than him. So everyone's like, oh, my God, like all the extremely online people.

17:11Clavicular:I can't believe I remember where I was when, you know, Clavicular got frame-mogged. Got what-mogged? Frame-mogged. Frame, the physical shape. This guy was standing next to him in a vest. He was frame-mogged. Yeah, he was frame-mogged.

17:23Richard Osman:Sorry, you look at me like I'm an idiot for not understanding the expression frame-mogged.

17:27Clavicular:I hope you've come here prepared.

17:29Richard Osman:It's like I was your grandfather. I was going, sorry, frame-mogged. Yeah, frame-mogged.

17:33Clavicular:He was frame-mogged, something that nobody said, like, honestly, you know, two weeks ago. But among the extremely online community, this moment already has attained the status of, like, historical event. Try and imagine an ironic Pearl Harbor, where everyone is just doing jokes and it's a meme and it's like a complete... But of course, then it just disappears.

17:55Richard Osman:A lot of popular culture is an ironic Pearl Harbor these days.

17:58Clavicular:Yeah, that you forget about really quickly.

18:00Richard Osman:But then has incredibly unironic consequences.

18:04Clavicular:Yes, sadly, the irony eventually melts away. So, because I suppose one of the things that people are saying is, who is funding him? We have seen, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, the way that lots of kind of extremely hard right women pundits and commentators suddenly started stopping talking about kind of deliberately obvious kind of route one politics stuff and started talking about things like Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni because it pipelines people into those kind of opinions. This isn't politics.

18:41Richard Osman:There's no politics here. I agree.

18:43Clavicular:And so now when you see him hooking up online with sort of Nick Fuentes, one of the things we have to sort of accept, which is so odd, is that that sort of Charlie Kirk version of young conservatism is now really mainstream. and there is a whole separate class of kind of, we're living in a kind of edgelord ascendancy where these people that used to be kind of part of that have now gone really quite far out on limbs. So there are people like Candace Owens who was one of those kind of, I don't know, Trump outriders. She's black, she's young, she's beautiful. She did a whole White Lives Matter thing, those sort of things.

19:25Clavicular:She now is suggesting that Erica Kirk is involved in her husband's death. So all of these people who used to be kind of mainstream young conservatives, which, by the way, obviously that Overton window had shifted pretty right anyway, are now in this kind of unconstructurable space beyond them all. and there are people like Nitruentis, there are people like Candace Owens, it's not clear whether he, Clavicula, who is, by the way, still only 19, can get sort of sucked into that ecosystem and be used as a way of kind of pipe lining young men to something much more extreme, much more extreme than a form of kind of mutually agreed upon, quite hard right, I don't know, I'm an avatar for our horrible times.

20:10Richard Osman:Yeah, it's a question of where you go next. if you get your fame in that way. Because, you know, the way we traditionally understand fame is you're an actor, you do a few small jobs, and then you book bigger jobs, and then, you know, you go to Hollywood, and that's how you become super famous. You're a stand-up.

20:24Clavicular:That's what a celebrity is.

20:25Richard Osman:Yeah. You're a stand-up, you do open slots, then you, you know, start doing club shows, and then someone books you on a TV show, and then suddenly you're a team captain on something. And then you've got your own show. That's the thing you do.

20:36Clavicular:But you come from the creative industries and creative artistry. That's sort of what's... Or you're in sport.

20:41Richard Osman:He cannot continue with this shtick and keep making money out of it for too much longer because it has a shelf life. You can see it has a shelf life. Whereas simply being a personality doesn't. But to do that, he has to go into other areas, other lifestyle areas. And as you say, at the moment, in the sphere he is straying into, the way to do that is via a sort of far right politics. So you see why people are drawn into it.

21:07Clavicular:But it's her act with all of these things. as much as Candace Owens, you know, she starts off one thing, then she's got this whole thing that, you know, Brigitte Macron's a man and they're suing her over it. Where would you go possibly next? You're going to say that Charlie Kirk's widow is involved in his shooting? It's an addiction to numbers.

21:26Richard Osman:Yeah. And so there is only one way to go and that's further and further and further. But, you know, all political movements kill themselves by doing this. That's the point. On left or on right, you know, having to go further and further and further to prove yourself more pure than everyone else. Political figures might even kill themselves.

21:40Clavicular:That's part of what's so awful about his thing is that, I mean, he is still only 19. And I know it doesn't excuse any of this stuff because he says terrible things. But one thing that I do think sets him apart is that he's like, oh, I live in a horror story. This is awful. Like, I'm a sort of avatar for our nihilist times. I am a kind of tragic figure. I don't want to be like this, which is different to something that, you know, like, as I said, I think it must have been in our bonus episodes about the books when I mentioned we were talking about the game, the Neil Strauss book. But Andrew Tate, the funniest thing in the world is him saying, you know, I haven't read a book.

22:21Clavicular:I'm amazing. I've got like a car that cost a billion pounds. I mean, he's such a baby. It's beyond. But his thing is, I'm constantly winning. I am everything maxing all the time and I'm loving it. Whereas this is like really quite tragic. You know, my life is a horror story. I shouldn't have to do this. I shouldn't have to inject myself. I shouldn't have to have made myself infertile. I mean, it's either you become involved in conspiracy culture. Or you're like some rock star who dies by 27. Sorry to say, because you've abused your body in such a difficult way. Let's talk a bit about the reason that you've seen suddenly so many profiles.

23:02Clavicular:And I'm not going to count all the places I've seen. I've seen a big thing in GQ, the New York Times, the Guardian did something. We live in a really turbocharged trend cycle anyway. So things that there are only sort of three examples of are immediately like, okay, this must be the key to Generation Alpha or whatever it is. I do think that legacy media now, when I see things like that, and I know we're doing a thing on it now on the podcast, but I am trying to talk about it in a slightly broader sense. that legacy media now is so terrified of missing things that might be big. There's a sense that, and what that says to me is, there's a sense that there is a world happening out there, that they're not in anymore, and that they certainly, without any question, and they've known this for a long time, no longer control, no longer serve as any form of gatekeeper to.

23:49Clavicular:And they do this kind of cargo cult thing where they think, we must have a profile of this person because lots of people are talking about him. Because if not, then who would we be if we didn't mention this?

23:59Richard Osman:You make your money in that culture by super serving a particular fandom and by having a group of people who can become obsessional with you. And that's why you live stream for eight hours a day. You are absolutely, you're always on. You're making money all the time from a small group of people. There is a world in which you then get profiled in, you know, the New York Times and spoken about in other places where you can ascend, to use Brayden Peter's own words. You can ascend in monetary ways that you can continue serving your community, but you can continue super serving your fandom, but that you can also then access that sweet, sweet sponsorship money.

24:42Richard Osman:And I never read, I literally never read a single thing when I'm thinking about this podcast about anyone, any influencer, any actor who doesn't have a deal with Gucci, for example. They all do. They're all brand ambassadors. But to do that, you do have to sort of slightly be written about in other places. So he's just ascending. That's all he's doing. We're helping him ascend.

25:08Clavicular:But is he actually already descending because of the ironous moment? You know, if you live by a form of dark irony, you can die by it really quickly.

25:18Richard Osman:Well, you know, like Rona Martin, right?

25:21Clavicular:Yes.

25:21Richard Osman:The curler.

25:22Clavicular:Yeah.

25:23Richard Osman:I mean, she was massive. when the women won the curling gold and it was like everyone went like rona martin crazy rona martin right still curls right she's got a lovely family you know she's got a job she enjoys herself she has a life that she can go back to she can enjoy that brief moment of fame if you're brayden peters you have to somehow keep that going and that's the that's the tragedy there if you don't have any actual skill you're in trouble if you do have a skill you'll be funny look at someone like Rylan. So Rylan, I always think, is a very early kind of almost analog example of this sort of thing that he appears on X Factor.

26:01Richard Osman:It's not the first show he'd appeared on. And you go, oh, I know who this is. Oh, my God, this is someone who's desperate for attention. But Rylan had a skill, which is people really liked him and he was really good at presenting. And so he managed to get a foothold in something else and find himself an actual real job. And that may well be what clavicular does clavicular it might turn out in you know meetings with various people has a has an interesting worldview or is interested in animals uh and you know can do travel documentaries maybe he can you know so he you can this this entry to the market is the first thing you do two things either three things either you have a skill you can become part of a culture um you can disappear or you can not have a skill you think oh okay i'm gonna get myself into the manosphere or into the political sphere and try and monetize that those are your three options and be interesting to see where clavicular goes uh after the break we're going to talk about why a pokemon card is worth uh over 16 million dollars and why anthony scaramucci's son bought it

27:18Clavicular:welcome back everybody a pokemon card has been sold for over 16 million dollars pokemon obviously are trading cards based on the the whole sort of pokemon world um pikachu illustrator is the specific nature of this card it was made for some sort of promotion or

27:34Richard Osman:competition in 1998 it was made made for an illustration competition funnily enough there was there was like a drawing competition and the prize was one of these 41 cards uh which were designed by um atsuko nishida who was the guy who designed pikachu in the first place so probably the rarest of all these pokemon trading cards yeah it was owned by there's obviously a celebrity

27:58Clavicular:element to all of this it's owned by logan logan paul this is like me talking about barb the the the Richard Burton, Elizabeth Taylor diamond that Margot Robbie wore on the promotional red carpet. Logan Paul wore this round his neck to WrestleMania in 2022.

28:14Richard Osman:In a bejeweled case on a diamond necklace.

28:16Clavicular:Yeah, okay. As discussed, that Burton diamond, that massive Burton heart diamond went for 8.8 million about 15 years ago. Now I would imagine it would fetch about the same as Pikachu. It was bought by one of Anthony Scaramucci, are our gold hanger colleagues uh sons aj yeah um they're trying to create some sort of global treasure hunt they say they want to buy the declaration of independence yeah good luck a copy of it talk to me about this auction house that they i mean this is the thing collectibles it was facilitated this wasn't this by this guy called ken golden he's got that netflix show called king of collectibles and he's got a show about um i've only seen it once but it's about It's kind of interesting.

28:58Clavicular:It's about memorabilia.

28:59Richard Osman:Yeah, it's about, you know, it's about this world of memorabilia and trading cards are a huge part of that. Comics, of course, are a huge part of that and these things can go up into their millions. And, you know, it might seem absurd, but, you know, we paid for old masters. You know, you can pay insane amounts of money for paintings, anything that has rarity and anything that people want. And Ken Golden worked out very early on, as various other people did, the generation who grew up with Pokemon, the generation who grew up with trading cards, had reached the ages of 35, 40, 45, and had a huge amount of money.

29:34Richard Osman:Nostalgia for their childhood was a huge deal. And so suddenly this market went absolutely stratospheric. Pokemon cards and Magic the Gathering cards, which is another trading game, are the perfect things for auction houses because you know exactly how many there are of each one. There are small amounts of some of them. In the same way when you used to collect Panini football stickers, and if you got a glossy badge, you'd be so excited. Also, the verification industry. So there's a company called PSA, which is the professional sports authenticators, whose job is to authenticate cars, but also give them a score out of 10 as to the quality of them.

30:14Richard Osman:And this one, the reason this is 16 million, I mean, one of the reasons it's 16 million is it's the first one of these Pikachu Illustrator cards ever to come on the market with a score of 10. which a PSA would call Gem Mint. So it's Gem Mint.

30:27Clavicular:It's not dog-eared in the parlance of anyone normal.

30:30Richard Osman:It is exactly that. The second most expensive Pokemon card, so this is 16 and a half million, which is a little bit toppy, but the world of auctions can be strange sometimes. But previously the record for a Pokemon card was just over 5 million. And that was exactly the same Pokemon card. That's when Logan Paul bought this. he bought it for 5 million he's made 11 million um profit as you say that he he knows how to make

30:57Clavicular:something more valuable but he doesn't make my culture more valuable he knows how to devalue

31:03Richard Osman:it completely but carry on in the same way as kind of you know people buy rare whiskey and people buy gold and all these things i think this feels like a perfectly acceptable thing to have in our culture i think it's quite nice if if you're gonna have an asset class and we've got lots of these asset classes you know sculpture painting all of that sort of stuff i quite like that it's this thing you know my son loves pokemon uh and he's in his 20s but you know it is such an important part of his childhood and it's an incredibly important part of other people's i quite like that this is the thing that we're we because this is not people are not buying this to put on their wall they're buying it it's an investment it's something that you want to earn you invest in it And I quite like that this is an investment class, you know, like these incredible illustrators doing these crazy things.

31:53Richard Osman:Okay, fine.

31:53Clavicular:They're buying shares in this and not like Union Carbide or something. Yeah, exactly. Okay, but it's a low bar. We are also living through a time where, which by the way went nuts, all of this stuff went nuts in the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. Remember, it went nuts at a time where people were driven nuts by what they were forced to do, i.e. stay inside. Think about NFTs. you basically convinced a load of people to pay for JPEGs. Okay, I'm really sorry to put it down there. NFTs were funny. Okay, they were funny, but a lot of people put their money... Yeah, but people put their money in it. Yeah, but not many people.

32:24Clavicular:All these supposedly high-value collectors... Are you saying that you did? Don't be stupid. Of course I did.

32:28Richard Osman:You lost 7.8 million pounds.

32:30Clavicular:I'm saving for my Van Gogh.

32:31Richard Osman:I wonder, by the way... Listen, we can ask him, I guess. I wonder if Scaramucci bought an NFT.

32:36Clavicular:One of the things we slightly think about is that, again, to speak of the nihilism of the culture... It's all bullshit. It's all what anyone will pay for it. That's what markets are. There is a sort of element, you know, but they also sort of, it's a generation that also rent everything or effectively. They stream that, you know, they don't own physical copies of lots of things. Although, as we've seen, there is a sort of trend back towards that. I'm sure Anthony Scaramucci Sr. would say that his boys have, how to put this, not been starved of physical ownership of material things. So perhaps they are not, but they certainly understand maybe something in the culture.

33:09Clavicular:So talking about the other things they want to buy, they want to buy a copy of the Declaration of Independence.

33:13Richard Osman:So this is it. So AJ Scaramucci's bought this. This is just the start of me owning the unownable. Something called a global treasure hunt.

33:19Clavicular:And then they want to buy, they also want to buy a T-Rex fossil. Now, this is something quite interesting. Can we do a sidebar on the dynos? buying dinos. As I think I mentioned on this podcast before, Nicolas Cage once outbid Leonardo DiCaprio for a T-Rex skull. But that was like 20 years ago. Nicolas Cage, as you know, has interesting spending habits, all of which were unsustainable at the time. But anyway, he had to give that one back to Mongolia.

33:48Richard Osman:He had to give it back to Mongolia? Yeah, because it was stolen.

33:52Clavicular:Well, I mean, you can fray anything.

33:55Richard Osman:But who did you send it to?

33:56Clavicular:The Mongolian government. They've got a retrieval sort of thing. Because Mongolia is not a place you can take a dinosaur skeleton from. By the way, interesting, the US still is. I wish you told me that last week. Yeah.

34:09Richard Osman:Wow.

34:09Clavicular:The US is one of the only places in the world where if you dig one up, it's yours. People are now trying to go back and find where they were. Because often they're even unassembled and they're in some tiny private local museums vault. to go back and buy them because there is a growing demand on the markets, the art market, essentially, for what they call natural objects, which are primarily dinosaur bones, but also things like meteorites and stuff like that. Now, Sotheby's are selling more and more of them. A few months ago, they sold a Saratoris skeleton. It was 150 million years old. I think they estimated it for$4 million.

34:46Clavicular:It went for$30 million. The year before, Stegosaurus had gone for$44 million. They have something that is kind of popularly known as Geek Week, where they're selling things like an original Apple One computer. Again, as I say, kind of meat rights, dinosaur bones.

35:04Richard Osman:Yeah, I've talked before about Julian's auctions in LA. Julian with an E, which we talked about it when they were selling all the props from Frasier. And yeah, if you look on their thing this week, they've looked like loads of astronaut stuff, loads of civil rights stuff, living history.

35:20Clavicular:Yes, that people want to physically own a piece of. It's interesting as well that there is a strong criminal element to this because there was a really interesting few weeks, I think at the very end of last, sort of, the first case was on December the 29th and the last one was halfway through January. Just in Nottinghamshire, there were like four major criminal cases that involved Pokemon cards because they're a really liquid acid. They're very small and portable.

35:50Richard Osman:Really easy to fake.

35:51Clavicular:Yeah, it's sort of interesting that it's become...

35:54Richard Osman:You have to be very, very careful with collectibles. I was looking up, so I was thinking, what have I got? So I was looking up Panini football stickers and literally the most expensive at auction Panini football sticker was someone had a completed World Cup 1970 sticker annual signed by Pele, which went for£10 ,000.

36:14Clavicular:Wow.

36:15Richard Osman:We're not up to the 16 million. Imagine how much effort went into that.

36:18Clavicular:I can't imagine how much effort went into that.

36:21Richard Osman:But this is a lot of money,$16 million for sure. Ken Golden, who is the guy who owns the auction house, of course is making a big cut off that. That's how auction people make their money. AJ Scaramucci, there'll be something in this for him and obviously he hopes that it goes up and he can drive that market. Logan Paul, of course, there's a huge amount of money in that for him. absolutely sure that it's all above board and everyone felt it was worth 16 million that's what got paid and all of that but certainly if you look back at the world of old market of old master paintings the stories of how the biggest prices ever are reached are so murky

36:58Clavicular:yes and this was very performative i thought i found it quite interesting when i was reading an article about kem golden's hq his headquarters in in is in new jersey in an industrial park next to a hospice. I was like, oh my God, America, you can be so on the nose. I can't, really. But it's, yes, I agree with this. This was an event in all sorts of different ways. And I'm sure we'll, it'll be interesting to read more about it as time goes on.

37:24Richard Osman:The one I was reading up about, you know, props for movies and things like that. And there's all sorts of records. I think the Ruby Slippers from Wizard of Oz went for 22 million. One of which Spielberg bought to give to a museum. One of which was stolen from the Judy Garland. museum and that's the one that went for 22 million uh it's fascinating what does become uh enormously profitable like the fedora and the ball whip from indiana jones of course goes for a lot of money peter jackson owns the only working chitty chitty bang bang which he paid like 400 000 um pound for and takes around on charity events yeah um castaway it's not a huge movie

38:00Clavicular:no right the tom hanks the tom hanks yeah uh wilson the volleyball the actual volleyball

38:06Richard Osman:from that which is this sort of filthy deflated volleyball went for 230 000 this world of pokemon cards i quite like it as a thing because i like collecting things and i like trading things it speaks to me something like pokemon i sort of think pokemon someone invented it and someone created it and someone really nurtured it and someone gave such joy to generations and generations of kids i quite like it if that becomes one of our big asset classes of the of this century if

38:34Clavicular:whiskey it's no more stupid than a load of Andy Warhol's exactly that it is exactly the same amount of stupid and as human beings by the same people recommendations Richard um a couple of

38:45Richard Osman:things if you haven't watched yet um how to get to heaven from Belfast Lisa McGee's series on Netflix her sort of follow-up to Derry Girls is just brilliant there's eight episodes it's bonkers the casting is unbelievable we get um different actors playing different generations of these characters and the casting is amazing the writing is amazing really funny really sharp just full of life beautifully directed it's it's a it's a it's a real treat that and also finally harriet tice from traitors her new book witch trial is out i'll say this it's really really really great and for anyone in the crime writing community she's she is the absolute real deal we will be

39:29Clavicular:back on Thursday as always with a Q &A. There's a lot of Andrew related questions. A lot of Prince Andrew questions. Yeah. So we'll be dealing with a lot of media and Andrew questions.

39:37Richard Osman:Not Prince Andrew. Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor.

39:40Clavicular:And then in something very close to my own heart, our bonus episode for members on Friday. It's 40 years since a certain movie, Top Gun, came out.

39:51Richard Osman:I must see it. I'm joking.

39:54Clavicular:Yeah, I know. You better be. Anyway, that's for our members. If you want to join for ad-free listening and Discord and early access to events, etc., etc., it is therestisentertainment.com. Otherwise, we will see you all on Thursday.

40:50Marina Hyde:Did Vladimir Putin interfere in the US 2016 presidential election? I'm Gordon Carrera, National Security Journalist. And I'm David McCloskey, author and former CIA analyst. And we are the hosts of The Rest is Classified. And in our latest series, we're going deep inside the 2016 election to reveal the true story of whether the Russians helped Donald Trump take the White House. This is the unbelievable story of how Russian spies first hacked and then leaked emails belonging to Hillary Clinton's campaign, how Julian Assange got involved with Putin's spies, and how 2016 marked the point that the world changed forever.

41:30Marina Hyde:Get the full insider scoop by listening to The Rest is Classified, wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.