‘Ali’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

26:05Bill Simmons:I actually don't know why he didn't put dates and kind of root you in where we were. It just seemed like a miss. Maybe that Michael Mann's like, I'm too good of a director to do that. But I really think it would have helped. I think more than anything, the reason why it's such a big swing is a biopic. And Ray kind of follows this same type of basic. Yeah. He really wants it to be about the characters. He tries to tell the story of Muhammad Ali's life and not necessarily a recounting of Muhammad Ali's life. So it's like his discovery with Islam, his discovery through women, like who he should end up being with.

26:46Bill Simmons:his discovery to what's important to him and he doesn't need the title to be who he is. Almost every single scene where something significant happens, you could leave the scene as if the scene is asking you, what if it were you? Like, what if it were you and you had found this new religion or movement that you were into, but it went against what your father wanted? What if you fell in love with the woman and she didn't conform to what it was? This thing, like every, and you take this huge, huge cultural figure and you just make him a god. Yeah. And then there are some ideas that are so huge that man's trying to illustrate very quickly.

27:25So like young Cassius seeing the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jesus that his father's painting has got to do so much work for like this kid and the little kid. That's a little kid from The Wire, right? That's my show. Yeah, doing such an amazing job of like, kind of like, what the fuck is this? And then that is why like, you know, however many years later, he's in this headspace where he's open to converting. So Mann said,

27:51Bill Simmons:if there's a theme to the movie, it's defiance. Oh, he defied that along with every expectation about him. Goes through a whole bunch of stuff about when he's going to make himself his heavyweight championship of the world, he's going to be a motivational personification of something totally different. A black man in his own culture with his own pride. And then that was what I think he's trying to do with the 10 years. Here's the climate Ali walked into. Here was his motivation. Here's where he wanted to end up. And then everything culminates in Africa, which is why the running scene is so long in Zaire.

28:27Yeah.

28:28Bill Simmons:Because I think Michael... That's the one time Michael Mann's doing some hand-holding. He's like, I really want you to understand this. This running thing. What a big deal. He's really having... This is his epiphany. Michael Mann, last of the Mohicans, Heat, The Insider, Ali. This is the Imperial phase. Jesus Christ. This is him like at the center of everything. And all the big, major, the major movie stars, the great actors are like lining up. Run it off again. Last Mohicans, Heat, The Insider, Ali. I don't know. I mean... That's 92 to 01. It's just like, with that, with the variety of the movies, yeah, I don't know if it gets much better than that.

29:12Bill Simmons:It's a pretty good four in a row that have nothing to do in common. But then there's common threads in each one. I feel like I wrote this when I did my review of this movie a long time ago. I think he felt like if I pull this off, this will be my legacy one. I've done some really good shit. I'm one of the best directors in the world. But this is the hardest IP to pull off. I'm going to try this. I'm going to go for it. It's also like, I think 25 years later, I don't think a white guy is directing this. I just don't think it happens. It was kind of controversial then. It was controversial in 01.

29:43Bill Simmons:I think now it's... How did you feel about that, by the way? I've always wondered what a movie that was a little bit more culturally at home would feel like. And look, we have not stopped making Muhammad Ali stories. He pops up in all kinds of different stuff. We see it all the time. But I did wonder that. But I'm going to be real with you, man. I think maybe man compensated or overcompensated the beginning of this movie is very black like it is it is very black maybe he was trying to do a little bit too much you know like when you when you and your homeboys like you got a white homeboy y 'all listening to Tribe Called Quest and he goes yeah man these guys they really influenced Kanye and you're like shut up bitch like I shouldn't have said that to you It's like we I know you ain't gotta perform Let's just enjoy the music So the version of that In this is like him being like What if we also went to the Apollo The night Sam Cooke is playing I'll show you guys I can make a movie with these people as well But to me It feels authentic though That kind of grounds the movie I think that's one of the best sports movie scenes ever and it's one of the best scenes of Michael Mann's career, if not the best one.

31:10Bill Simmons:We'll talk about it when we do rewatchables. Yeah, so he's got that and then you have Will Smith. He's only taken two swings in his career. It's this and Six Degrees of Separation. Other than that, every choice was safe. This one, he knows. He even said, I have a quote in here, I guess from later. I'll find it. But he's 33 years old and he's basically like, this is it. Like, I'm in the prime of my career. I got to do this. This is my moment. Spends a year learning how to box and talk like Ali. Basically, it takes two years to make this movie because he wants it to be perfect. And also, like, Ali approved him.

31:50Bill Simmons:Ali had the rights to this and, you know, wasn't going to do it unless he felt good about the lead person. He's as close as you're going to get to an actor being Ali, but you're just not— just don't see how somebody becomes Ali. He does the best job. There's scenes where he comes alive as Ali But it always feels like Will Smith Yes I never forget It's Mike Lowry playing Ali Mike Lowry playing Ali Mike Lowry There are moments of real beauty I think all of the physicality Of his performance is amazing The boxing, the running The boxing's excellent Him holding court or being At a press conference The intimate scenes the scenes of the women, the scenes of his religious conversion, I feel like I'm watching a historical reenactment, kind of.

32:41Which is usually the problem with biopics. My hottest take is that this is one of the strongest performances in a biopic whenever Will is not talking. And I know that that feels silly, like that almost can't be a thing, but there's so much action happening, there's so much drama happening and that a lot of times in order for, like, his reaction to Malcolm X in that scene and just the one line. Like, when he's understated... Or when he sees

33:14Bill Simmons:Michael Michelle for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, hey, he nails all of that. Every single thing. Every way, everything that, when he, when they don't call his name and he decides he's not going to be inducted. All of that. But when he starts trying to do the Ali voice... It's impossible. you can't do that yeah that's not gonna happen and that's kinda when maybe you lose a little bit and it's weird because there are so many figures around him that are so iconic and I can't help but feel like Michael T. Williamson is doing Don King I'm like this is fucking awesome that one scene when he does the Don King in the outside when he tells him for him and got hurt yeah he becomes Don King for like 75 seconds it's unbelievable but also like Ron Silver and Jamie Foxx All of these guys.

34:04Cosell. You feel like you're in the middle of it. Michael T. Williamson kind of, like, inhabits the energy of Don King. Like, Don King feels like a little fucking sleazy, a little fucking, like, dangerous. Like, it's a really understated performance.

34:20Bill Simmons:And Ali, who some people said was super naive at all times, but then other people would say had pretty good sense. So he sniffed out the Don King thing pretty early. we'll talk about all those actors in a second Craig who is who's Ali now like this is the most beloved celebrity we had for I would say the entire 1970s and 80s I think people loved him the most you guys could probably tell me what year or what kind of era that it flips but boxing just culturally expired and I have no relationship to boxing other than like do you think there's a celebrity though anybody Eddie? In boxing? Or are you saying in all sports?

35:02In anything. Well, it's hard for me to even know how you felt about Ali. Because I wasn't there and I don't really get it. So... I'm trying to think like who is that for you? The biggest athlete of your life. Highest approval rating. Highest approval rating? No, just who's the biggest athlete? Probably Tom Brady or LeBron. It's just nowhere close to the significance.

35:22Bill Simmons:Yeah. And LeBron James is a massive, huge guy who has political... It's just nowhere near. nowhere near the importance there's no way there's no way it's impossible I've only seen it Ali which I caught in the tail end as a little kid growing up into it Jordan and then Tiger got close he didn't have the personality no I think it's almost more common for us now to experience that kind of thing or at least in our lifetimes like on a local level like I would say Iverson in Philly for a couple of years had like this magic to him and this larger than life aspect but a lot of people also didn't like him.

35:58Bill Simmons:I know. Which would put some more Tordali in the 60s. But he was not, I mean, we're talking about like a global, like if this dude walked into a restaurant in China, people would be like, that's fucking Muhammad Ali. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, also, it's sometimes unfair when we do this because like the 60s are the adolescence of America. Yeah, and of mass culture. Right, of mass of mass culture of America. Like, this is when we're like, okay, it seems like we're going through it again. Is this thing gonna work or we're gonna figure out a way around this and the people who embody that they live as symbols for that forever and we're just in a different spot now Jordan is probably that guy for my direct generation but his his grand contribution is his ability to be liked and stinkers that would have been amazing if you were like it's Mr.

36:52Beast that could be Taylor Swift I don't know. I like Mr.

36:56Bill Simmons:Beat too. The thing that pushed Ali over the top for everybody was that he actually sacrificed something. That's what I'm saying. Which I think when you're sacrificing your own, not just money, but this part of his prime, all these different things, then you're at another level. Well, I do think now there's a bit of like a sanitation to the most famous people in the world now. Yeah, true. There's nobody putting themselves out there like mom. Yeah, what would Ali be like in social media era? I know the thing is though it's like I don't he's got a personal photographer flying like following around he knows he's important he's going on Wide World of Sports he's got sports writers like in his coterie like he is documenting himself in real time but was never overexposed I don't think well it was might have been impossible to overexposed might have been impossible in the 70s to be overexposed also in many ways and the Jordan thing I was talking about you actually doubled down on it when you said the sneakers.

37:55Jordan kind of invents that type of sneaker culture. But at the same time, Jordan's main thing is that he was beloved as a pitch man and that that became what people wanted to be. Before Jordan, the actual archetype for the modern athlete was Muhammad Ali. That's who people wanted to be. Jordan actually kind of changed that. Jordan didn't want to have any type of political stance. He didn't want to have any type of countercultural significance or relevance. He just wanted to be the guy that had the number one approval rating everywhere. So whatever he told you to buy, you didn't buy it.

38:30Bill Simmons:It worked. Also super handsome like Ali. Super handsome. I gave for Will Smith. I'm giving him the Peter North Award for most effort put in a movie. Okay. He put on 35 pounds. He had to try to figure out Ali's weird Louisville accent which I think is almost impossible. It's like a draw combined with like there's a sing-songiness to it. I don't know. I've never heard anybody do it 100 % successfully. It's almost like when people try to do Barkley. Like you just can't do it. It's like a one-on-one voice. Right. We'll take a break. There's a couple other things to discuss. I'm going to do the categories.

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41:22Bill Simmons:So one thing Michael Mann said about Ali, he said he represented the enormous possibility, the poetics of actual self-determination, had to defy not just the establishment, not just white America, not just people who are feared militancy, but also the NAACP, Joe Louis, you name it. everybody who was centrist and had an interest in maintaining the status quo. Now he says this in 2017. He says, we are still talking identity politics in 2017. Try understanding that perspective in 1964. That's a good point. That's a good point. Jamie Foxx. Yeah. So, he was in Any Given Sunday as Willie Beeman. It's the first time we're like, oh, Jamie can act.

42:07Bill Simmons:This is pretty good. he's unbelievable in this and I remember one of my big takeaways seeing this in the theater was like fuck Jamie Foxx is a great actor I had no idea yeah there's an interesting dynamic here Van where he's kind of the Tom Brady sixth round pick to Will Smith's Peyton Manning of like oh you're just supposed to be over here it's Will Smith's time and nobody sees the Jamie Foxx thing really coming yet and who wins the Oscar first Jamie Foxx yeah there's actually Jamie Foxx was hosting something. It might have been the MTV Awards or something like that to where Will was still in the era of unveiling his body.

42:51Before the movie came out, we looked at us, God damn, Will then got swole. And I remember Jamie comes over to say on this whatever bit they're doing on stage, Jamie comes over to say what's up to Will and Will takes off his jacket and everybody's like, oh my God, it's Will Smith. and then he gives his jacket to Jamie Foxx. And then Jamie Foxx kind of like slinks away. He plays it up. You know, Will's kind of the star. He's kind of the co-star and everything like that. The whole Ali thing is happening. In two years, legitimately that changed. It didn't change to where Jamie Foxx ever usurped Will as a star.

43:25I don't think that that quite happened. But I think, do you think that happened?

43:29Bill Simmons:I don't. I think it was inconceivable that he would even be in the conversation. But he caught up. And then he was. Because like, Yes. Like, collateral, the collateral Ray year is what, 2004? Mid-2000s, yeah. Like, by that point, everybody's in awe of Jamie and everything that he could do. He was also more, I think, liked in the Hollywood range. Yeah, Will Smith? Well, Will Smith at that point was like, he was married, he was just a major star. Jamie was accessible. Huh. Jamie was at the, you know, partying, he would come on the late night shows. I think they were, I think they had two different parts of Hollywood I think Jamie's Hollywood was a little bit more Rat Pack Will's Hollywood was a little bit more corporate and it was probably Will Rat Pack and I think that they kind of managed their careers at a certain point where it was like Fox is still like I want to do TV I want to host stuff I want to do music comedy yeah like I want to be in everything and Smith's running his career essentially on the Tom Cruise track of like when you do this it has to hit.

44:35It has to count. Jamie busted everybody's ass. They did, like, Jamie is legitimately one of the most talented people, like, Sammy Davis Jr. type shit that we've ever seen.

44:44Bill Simmons:He's great. And then as soon, He's funny as fucking shit, too. Like, Bundini almost greases the skids for Ray. Yeah. You see the same type of DNA in this performance. Like, the same type, and then, he's out of there, then. And then we have Van Peebles as Malcolm. Who, I think this is probably the best he's been in a movie like this, right? He had a good career, but I think— I mean, can you imagine how fucking hard it must be to play Malcolm X after Denzel Washington? Right after Denzel. Like, not that far after. Man, Mario Van Peeples is a fucking genius. Like, Mario Van Peeples is one of those guys, when you go back and look at the totality of things that Mario Van Peeples has done, and done them well, that is a fucking A-plus creative, man.

45:31New Jack City. It's Mario Van Peeples. you know what I'm saying so like here's who else

45:36Bill Simmons:is in this movie Jeffrey Wright as Howard Bingham Giancarlo Esposito who's great in this movie I like that there's only like one scene with him and J.B. Fox when they're drinking and I was like I could have done five more of those he's like it's water yeah Ron Silver as Angela Dundee Joe Morton Chauncey Eskridge Ted Levine briefly Leon Barry Chewbacca Henley Michael T Bruce McCall even has a McGill Bruce McGill I wrote down McCall again Bruce McGill All of them are great All of them are graduated That guy's Yeah Nona Gay Michael Michelle Paul Rodriguez Is Freddy Pacheco Paul Rodriguez Is Freddy Pacheco Does he have a line?

46:18Bill Simmons:No Does he talk? I think maybe in the director's cut He has a line Yeah And then John Boyd is Cosell Which is another one Shouldn't have worked Did you say Jada? Well we haven't even gotten to the ladies yet Yeah But John Boyd is Cosell who gets nominated for an Oscar. It's like, who can play Howard Cosell that's like doing an SNL sketch? And he's really good. And I think probably makes him a little more kind of a good hang than Howard Cosell was by all accounts. Well, it's the intimate moments between Ali and Cosell are the ones that really sell it when he's like doing the coffee and he's like, have some coffee with your sugar.

46:53And then he's like, they're coming for you. They're coming for you.

46:57Bill Simmons:And then Nona Gay, Jada Pinkett, and Michael Michelle. I went to an Ali junket because I wrote a piece for page two. I got to spend 10 minutes with Nona Gay. Yes. Who was the best looking person I'd ever seen up to that point in 2001. It's a thing. It's impressive. It was really, really impressive. It's a thing, man. That's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful woman.

47:23Bill Simmons:First cryptos was Sony, 1992. Ended up at Columbia Pictures in 98. Ron Howard, Barry Sonnenfeld. Can I have five seconds on this? It is worth noting that this script was like in development hell. This was like a… Almost 10 years. In the 80s, they were talking about doing this. I think there was different guys attached. There's the credits are… I think Gregory Howard has the story credit or some original credit. There's four screenplay people. Then there's two other writers credited. Then Eric Roth and Michael Mann also get a screenplay credit. At various points, this was going to be the childhood story of him.

47:58up to 40. There's lots of different versions of this out there. It's kind of a miracle the movie hangs together as well as it does. Well, how about Ali with approval of everything?

48:08Bill Simmons:Yes. Which never really works either. Never works. And at that point, he was fading. But he had his wife. And they keep trying to do it. And it never makes good movies. Basically, everybody from you older is like, that's not Ali. You know what I mean? You're going to have to... Including Ali. Voting public is going to be pretty harsh with this. So, Spike Lee wanted to do it. was in negotiations and Will Smith really wanted Michael Mann to do it. Interesting. Is it apocryphal that Will Smith told Spike Lee he was going to have to expand his boundaries if he wanted to direct this? I had that in my notes.

48:42Bill Simmons:Couldn't imagine him saying that to Spike Lee. Now, I got to say, Malcolm's too important to this movie. I don't know how Spike could have directed it. I don't know if that would have been the same film. It would not have been the same film. I think that there's a version of this. I think that the Spike Lee movie, they're two vastly different movies. Vastly different movies. I think the Spike Lee movie might have had more cultural relevance. It might have been more, it might have been thematically tighter in terms of what he was trying to say about Malcolm X. Excuse me, Malcolm X. Ali. It would have been a smaller movie and Will just liked movies for everyone.

49:20And Spike doesn't make movies for everyone. And probably wanted to work

49:24Bill Simmons:with Michael Mann too, who was scorching hot at the time. Has Will ever worked with Spike? I don't think this was the deal breaker after this. What year's 25th Hour? Is that 02? Yeah. So we get that instead. Yeah. I mean, like, I think that's a win for us. For us. Definitely a win. Yes. Maybe Spike Lee would have liked to have directed the Muhammad Ali movie. But I will say this. It is interesting that Will Smith has never worked with Spike Lee. Most of the guy, guys. So the biggest black actor we've had since younger than Denzel. Right. And probably the only person who didn't work with Spike Lee was Will Smith.

50:04Yeah. It's just an interesting thing.

50:06Bill Simmons:Did Jamie work with him? With Spike? I don't think so. I don't think so. But it is worth noting also that Will was the first person. I think he turned down Django. And then Jamie does Django. Because I think maybe those types of movies… Are like, I can't do it. I don't do it. he can't make you know After Earth or whatever the fuck that was you know like remember that first year at Grantland I wrote a huge piece about this did you? about Will Smith it was the Will Smith career arc it was about Will Smith the Django thing saying everything about his career decisions in the 21st century basically it was too hot for him it was he studied it he was honestly like an advanced metrics guy him and his agents studied box office and the movies that made the most money and they were all like outer space big action and that was like he's just like I just want to do those and never really wanted to experiment with anything else so Django was like too much for him after Earth Jamie stepped right in I liked it I mean it's also the craziest thing about the slap is that's the dude who had the most like his the most carefully public perception and his career was so carefully managed the crazy thing about the slap is that the slap might have not been as efficient as it was if not for this movie.

51:27Because Will had to learn

51:28Bill Simmons:how to throw punches. Right. Without decking somebody. Will had to learn how to throw punches and get his shit straight. So years later, that slap came through and you couldn't get out the way of that bitch because of this movie. I think COVID, everyone's in a haze from COVID. I think the Fox, I mean, now the Will Smith, Chris Rock slap is the weirdest thing that's happened this century. 21st century, that's my number one pick. Weirdest thing that's happened. So listen. I watch it sometimes. I'm like, I can't believe this happened. So our movie. And then he won an Oscar. Won an Oscar. Yeah, he got it in a war.

52:05Our movie won the year before. So we're still in the haze, right? So that year, everyone that was involved in Two Distan Strangers is at an Oscar party. Yeah. Because they act like they care about you for like two years after you. Then they dump you. Then it's like, whatever. So everyone's at it. I'm in New York doing hip hop. homicides. I have worked all day. I have gone to sleep. I wake up. It's a million fucking text messages, but the first one is from Kalika, and it says, Will Smith just punched Chris Rock in the face on stage, live at the Oscars. Where are you? I'm like, there's no way that happened.

52:44Some facsimile of that might have happened, but there's no way that that happened. And when I looked up, that's what the fuck happened. Will Smith walked on stage at the Academy Awards and slapped the shit out of Chris Lach. Did it affect how you watched Ali?

53:01Bill Simmons:I always feel like I have Will Smith. I always feel like I have a little Will Smith baggage now when I watch Will Smith movies because that slap was so weird. I have zero. It's in the back of my head always. It's like way down on the list of the most deplorable things people have done. Yeah, I don't give a fuck. I still watch. Yeah, I don't give a fuck. It was just so weird. I can't believe he hit Chris Rock That's so interesting to me I still can't believe that happened Lil Rel is the best on this Lil Rel goes Yeah Will shouldn't hit Chris But I get it He's the funniest on that It's just like yeah He lost himself he went up he smacked the guy It happens Michael Mann did a director's cut in 2017 Where he basically said I was totally happy with the finished product of this movie.

53:50Bill Simmons:He said, with the hindsight of history, I felt the drama didn't get all the way there because he made some tweaks. It wasn't as strong as it should have been. I don't think I changed anything on a movie like Heat, but here the proportion, how it made you feel wasn't quite right. And then he made his little tweak. So I'm sure he had to hand this in. It's like over 150 minutes. Yeah, it's two hours, 40 minutes. And I'm sure he's like, oh man, there's so many things I like in this movie, but I can't. Yeah, you can tell even with the casting of the film. There's got to be footage of... There's probably more Angelo, Freddie, and Bundini footage out there.

54:26Come on, Daddy! Let's go, Daddy! Don't jump in one place. It's probably just more boxing, period. Good. That would have been sick.

54:34Bill Simmons:Oscar noms. Will Smith nominated for Best Actor. Loses to Denzel in Training Day. We're good with that. Yeah, that works. Jon Voight nominated for Howard Cosell. He lost to Jim Broadbent in Iris. Jamie Foxx not nominated. Should have been nominated. Should have been nominated. Should have been nominated. Yep. $110 million made$87. Lost money. Big, big, big. It's kind of crazy. Ebert, two stars. When this came out, did you feel like the thing that was working against it was the critical reception as we're about to get to? Or why didn't this do better? It came out a week after Lord of the Rings also.

55:12Oh.

55:14Bill Simmons:Critical response was like, eh, this is good. But it just, I don't know. $87 million is still not awful for 01, but the fact that it cost$110 million because man's like, I'm going to Africa. We're going to Africa. We're going here. We're going here. We're recreating this. $87 million is bad for one reason. Looking at Will Smith's movies before that. I knew that the movie would have problems resonating with people when my dad didn't like it. My dad is the man that handed me VHS tapes of Muhammad Ali. and for some reason he couldn't connect with the movie. Like the movie for some reason he just he didn't like it.

55:54Bill Simmons:It's also too long for if you're gonna be two hours 45 minutes then you only get the two screenings a day instead of the three so you're cutting into your own money. Craig almost had a stroke. I did split it into two different viewings. Ebert, two stars. A long, flat, curiously muted film about the heavyweight champion lacks much of the flash fire and humor of Muhammad Ali. Shot more in the tone of a eulogy than a celebration.

56:23Bill Simmons:His review is really good for this. I would encourage people to read it. But he does say no modern actor could capture Ali completely. I've never read him and disagree with the review more. What'd you disagree with? I disagree with the fact that the movie in some way should have been like a celebration of Muhammad Ali. I think the best thing about this movie is to examine this extraordinary life. Like, we don't need Maham. The celebration is his life itself. Yeah. What I always want to know from a biopic, my one question from every biopic is what it cost you. That's the only thing I ever want to know about a biopic.

57:05We know that you were great. We're making a movie about you. We know that you did what it cost you. Like, what did you have to give up? Like, what love did you leave on the table? What personal situations did you leave on the table? What skeletons or bones do you have behind you to achieve that type of greatness? Because that sacrifice is what it takes. That's what this movie is about to me. It's obviously a character and a person that is just too close to Ebert. I mean, Michael Mann doesn't make humorous and celebratory movies, so it's kind of like... You know what, with Tane and Ebert,

57:34Bill Simmons:he wrote a great, great piece about the Rocky movie, watching it with Ali. Yeah. And he said, he talked about it, He spent one day with them. I saw a man enormously entertained by life, twinkling with bemusement, lowering the tinted glass window of his Rolls limousine so pedestrians could do a double take when they saw it was him. And then he's like, he thought Smith played him as more meditative and subdued, sad. And I just think he was like, that's not the guy I spent a day with. And that seemed like he colored it. Anyway, most rewatchable scene. We mentioned in the opening, Sam Cooke all the way into the Bundini intro, into the Liston Way Inn.

58:17Bill Simmons:What's a better Michael Mann sequence other than maybe the bank shootout? I mean, the opening of Heat is pretty high up there in terms of an opening of a film. There's several battles in Mohicans that I think attain this kind of nirvana. Diner scene in Thief? The diner scene. This big type romance, yeah. But this is among the best things he's ever put together. The collateral, the jazz scene when he shoots Barry Chewbacca. Yeah, that stuff is all, I was just looking at collateral. That stuff all really works, but. Hey, homie, is that my briefcase? God damn, we used to be a real country, man. Hey, homie, is that my briefcase?

58:57I like when Lista goes, keep talking. I'm going to fuck you up. It's like, oh, Jesus. Don't kill Tom in that movie. Don't kill Tom in the movie. He's just talking about collateral. Yeah, don't kill him. don't kill Tom in the movie don't kill him and just run it back three years later for collateral 2 for collateral 2 that's right

59:14Bill Simmons:day of the soldario more rewatchable scenes that aren't gonna win cause we already have the winner third round sixth round of the Liston fight is really good I like when Liston quits when Ali's on the on the stool kinda watching Liston I was gonna ask you what's the rap on the the Liston cheating with the blinding Ali thing was that he Liston definitely did that Some people think that it was just That it happened on its own That like They rubbed you with stuff It got on the gloves And it got out of his eyes But most people look at it Liston was a scumbag Like there's no way he didn't do that Scumbag He was a bad person He was a bad man He was a heavyweight champion in the world Sonny Liston was a bad person Don't you know you're talking to Bill X Come on William X did not like Sonny Liston William X would love Sonny Liston William X did not like Sonny Liston But he stood for it William X should be a recurring character on this show No, we can't do...

1:00:08William X not approving of Denzel and Julia Roberts' relationship in Pelican Brief. No, sir. I won't have it.

1:00:19Bill Simmons:Well, you know, I had this in nitpicks. The movie avoids... The Muslims thought Angelo Dundee doctored the gloves because he was trying to tank the fight for Ali. It's like a big part of the lore of that fight. They start coming to the corner because they're going to fight Angelo. boxing guy so I didn't know about that yeah that's a real thing I don't know why that wasn't in the movie a moment in the film to show Dundee putting like shit in his pockets and then he's he puts pills in his pockets right yeah and then he's like getting all of his stuff together and I was like oh this is cool this is just Michael Mann doing like look at this master of his craft but I wasn't sure that I read about like there are all these like allegations both ways it's amazing that he was blind for one of the six rounds and just danced and then if you watch it like the six round Liston quits after the six like he kills Liston in the six round he like really fucks him up Malcolm in the hotel room with Ali that camera angle of being people's with Ali behind him yeah just kind of staring out it's and it's a long scene too that's great we mentioned Ali turning his back on Malcolm in Africa obviously not rewatchable for the typical reasons but I thought the scene when Malcolm gets murdered and then Ali in the car is just really great it's fucking crazy that that I believe is Chauncey Eskridge was on the phone and was talking yeah it's an amazing sequence the second list in fight Just because of Jada Pinkett's performance in The Stance.

1:01:53Bill Simmons:Koso, they're coming after you. Woke Howard. Ali and the phone. Yeah, I know where Vietnam is. It's on TV. When he does the Viet Cong thing. And then Howard Bingham's like, you know what you just did? Will Smith's best scene in the movie when he comes out of the courtroom and he's like, you're my oppressors. and he does that 45 second. You my enemy. Not no Chinese, no Viet Cong, no Japanese. You're my opposer when I want freedom and does that whole... I think that's his best scene in the movie leading into the Tyrell weigh-in and all that stuff. Do you like this scene with Ali and Bundini when he sells the belt?

1:02:36Love it. I sold your belt. My two favorite scenes in the movie, that one, and for some reason, Ali watching Foreman knock out Joe Frazier. That's just such a real fucking scene to where you feel like you got everything lined up. Right. And then all of a sudden, that scene, another boxing thing, if you want to see the greatest destruction ever, go watch of a great champion. Go watch the way, I know you guys have seen it, you guys are sports fans, how Foreman destroyed fucking Joe Frazier.

1:03:11Bill Simmons:Down goes Frazier! Just like a child. It's cool how they're all sitting on the couch and they're like, this is a good... This is not a big deal. It's like, what the fuck? This guy's announcing himself. But the Bundini scene is particularly moving to me. Ali goes on wide road of sports. Right into Frazier. Takes Ali for a ride. You beat Corey. I'm going to get in the ring. I'm going to kick your ass. James Toney's good in that scene. James Toney does a good job. Kosev tells Ali he won the trial Ali loses to Frazier move legs and it's like okay hook coming I like how they did that but they get into that fight fast Ali Bumay running through the streets and then Ali Foreman heading into the 8th round when the ring girl winks at him and he winks back and then leading to him alright now I'm going to go and he gets Foreman that had to have been the most thrilling moment you could possibly have if you loved a team or an athlete when he actually beats Foreman in the eighth round.

1:04:16Bill Simmons:That has to be number one. What do you guys think of the boxing in this film? I like it. I like it too. I think he took a more deliberate approach to it. Like, some boxing is about movement. Some boxing is about, some boxing, I'm talking about when I'm talking about boxing in movies. Some of it's about movement. Some of it was about thuds. Like, he wanted you to feel the thuds. you couldn't really approximate the speed of a prime Muhammad Ali. You would almost have to do CGI stuff. Right. But as far as the movement and the actual impact, I thought they did a good job. And the guys, unlike other movies, they look like heavyweights.

1:04:55Yeah, they are fighting. And they're hitting each other.

1:04:58Bill Simmons:I thought the Foreman fight specifically was really, really, really close to the actual fight. The way he's leaning back, the way Foreman was just... I thought Foreman was pounding him. It felt like Will was taking a lot of those shots. What did you think? It's just interesting because I look at it from a purely cinematic. It sometimes is a little bit... The fights in this movie lack a little bit of the stylistic diversity that Raging Bull has. Like Raging Bull, he shot each fight in this different kind of way. And I feel like he shot, to my eye, he shot these fights in a very similar fashion the entire...

1:05:31Well, he was trying to be exactly like the actual fight. Yes. And I think, but I guess I prefer ultimately Scorsese trying to mimic the experience of looking at a Life magazine photograph rather than like perfectly like. The foreman actor took that punch. Yeah. I will say that. Did the whole face shake. I will say that those two fighters are also different. With Jake LaMotta, you have to capture brutality, which that movie captures the brutality of who Jake LaMotta was. with Ali obviously he's a very dangerous fighter but there's an elegance to it there are times where he's delivering performance inside of the air and that's what's so good about the final fight in this movie is a smart decision to end the movie with that fight because it's Ali at the peak of his performance not as a fighter athletically he had been but how he could be theatrically inside of the ring and outside out of the ring.

1:06:35What's your favorite boxing in a movie? Not necessarily a boxing movie, but the, like, fighting in a movie. It's such a stupid answer. It's a really stupid answer. Diggstown. It's not a bad answer. It's, like, it's such, it's a, it's not a very serious movie, but for me, It's a good one, though. It's like Diggstown.

1:06:54Bill Simmons:I like Diggstown. I think the first, the first Creed fight, the actual fight. You're talking about in Mexico? When, no, No, not Mexico. No, he's saying Rocky Creed won. I forget who he fights when that first round, when it's like the entire game of the round. Oh, wait, that's the Tijuana fight in Creed. That's what I'm saying, in Mexico. The one in Mexico? The first time you see Adonis Creed fight, period. No, the next time. He's Creed by this point. When Stallone is in his corner. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought they did a really good job with that. Mike's a good boxer. Well, and also that it was one shot for like three straight minutes.

1:07:30Bill Simmons:I thought that's probably the best thing I've seen. what was your favorite scene Craig I really liked all the Cosell homie stuff I found that to be really fascinating mainly also probably just because I can't believe that's something that was happening culturally and that's something that would never happen now those type of conversations on air like that and like their interaction and like even I was watching old videos of Ali talking to Dick Cavett and I was just like man this is crazy like the types of conversations that they're having is just not really what you get. Closest thing we had was Bill and KD.

1:08:03That's right.

1:08:04Bill Simmons:Yeah. Long time ago, man. I remember it was the second Ali Frazier after the fight at Mwad World of Sports and Ali started making fun of Frazier that he went to the hospital and they got in the actual fight at Mwad World of Sports. I think it was the second fight. I think it's obviously the first 10 minutes. Yeah, it's got to be the first 10 minutes. You could even say the first 24 minutes. The only thing that approaches that for me is the Zaire arrival, like the Kinshasa arrival. Oh, that's awesome. Or running through Kinshasa. Yeah. Also, like, the fact that it rained right after he knocked Forman out, which is something that happened in real life, is one of the craziest things that's happened in a sporting event.

1:08:46Bill Simmons:My dad always said God wanted him to finish. Like, two minutes after the knockout. Yeah. Pouring hurricane rain. Yeah. Unbelievable. You can't make that shit up. Would have been like a terribly hot day in the Hall 9. It's like, what's the most 2001 thing about this movie, CR? I guess I just had Will Smith critical and commercial sensation. What do you have? Kind of the same, but I will say the cast itself is this mixture. Oh shit. He's got, something's brewing. The cast itself is this mixture of like ascending people. Yeah. like, I mean, Jamie and some of these other people, but also like staples of people.

1:09:26The ascending people are Jeffrey Wright and Jamie and all, of this stuff and then you had your older guard and that's a very 2001 cast. What are you about to say?

1:09:34Bill Simmons:Including Ron Silver. Is he the most 2001 thing? No, when I did The Junket. It was the only time I'd ever been to a movie Junket and I had 10 minutes with Ron Silver and I immediately went into Silent Rage. God, I'm excited about Silent Rage. I was like, I'm a huge Silent Rage guy and he's like, the killer wouldn't die! And he was all excited and we talked about it. What was the movie that he was in with Jamie Lee Curtis? Blue Steel. Blue Steel it's a good movie yeah Tubi classic where he was he was like a killer Blue Steel you might have to crank that one up on that after Liz's asleep that's Captain Bigelow isn't it yeah it's Captain Bigelow Blue Steel she's the cop it would be the Tubi all stars last year my most 2001 thing Will and Jada young love real chemistry there you go yeah great to see them happy

1:10:24Bill Simmons:really believed in those two some good things ahead they're still together the Floyd Gondali butter on my ass and lollipops in my mouth the word for something I just enjoy what do you have Van I like whenever actors take on athletic roles and commit to it there's nothing that I hate more than some half ass actor trying to play basketball but whenever they really commit to it or Matt Damon doing Legend of Bagger Vance and doing two weeks of golf lessons when they bullshit about it I don't like it but when they really commit to it and bring that to it, I always find myself enjoying it. Cosell's voice.

1:11:03Oh. And I just miss the Pat Summerall, Keith Jackson. That era. Bob Costas. I mean, even through Costas. She just missed White and Answers. No, I didn't say that. I was gonna... I just miss, like, guys who tried to capture the poetry of a moment rather than just be like, welcome to the fucking, like, shit dome for, like... So Stephen A's not cutting it for you? No. Who's left? Bob Costas? Breen? Breen? Breen's not like that. Joe Buck? No?

1:11:34Bill Simmons:No, there's nobody. Who's left? Nobody's left? Those guys are all gone? There's nobody who can levitate. Nance? Nance a little bit, yeah. But Nance? Who can levitate above the event with some monologue for three minutes. Like Vin Scully or those guys? it's easy to do it on the Masters. You know what I mean? But even college basketball dance had it. Yeah. It's what Tom Rinaldi tries to do. My Floyd Gundali. God damn. The uh-oh, I got my bell rung slow motion moment in every boxing movie. Where it's like... And they do like the weird and it's like... I always like that. It's like, uh-oh, he got fucked up.

1:12:13Bill Simmons:Have you ever actually had your bell rung? Not by a punch. What happened? I've hit my head a couple times where I'm like, fuck. Right. Yeah. I got elbowed in basketball once oh that's a good one I hit my head in the attic where I didn't realize the doorway was low and I just got clocked and like fell to the ground Clark W. probably got a concussion what stage is the best? mentioned any moment with Gene Carlo Esposito and JB Fox together that just should have been all the deleted scenes James Tony acting I love Foreman the actor playing Foreman just hitting the heavy bag in that scene Jesus and man just stays with it for like 10 seconds.

1:12:57Bill Simmons:No lines for Paul Rodriguez. And then Jim Gray and Bill Plaschke being in scenes. Bill Plaschke has a line. He has to ask a question, right? Yes, too, doesn't he? Yeah. Jim Gray is just smiling like a maniac for some reason. What do you have? I have the champ is here as a rap sample. Yeah. I have Smith's fighting ability. You are never like he's not fighting or they're about to double in or anything like that. I talked about this, but the low key, the fact that it's a low-key Malcolm X movie for an hour. Yeah, that was mine. Since then, they've put Muhammad Ali in a bunch of different shows and stuff.

1:13:35And there's another one coming out. They're doing the greatest. So just Muhammad Ali as a cultural figure that they want to put on a narrative has exploded after this. I will also say that however, I don't know anything about I assume the guy was singing because it's not Sam Cooke exactly. It's not lip syncing Sam Cooke's voice, but it's a very good approximation of Sam Cooke. And that is on the live record, the call and response that goes on is exactly how it is on the live record. And it's fucking amazing to watch a bunch of other stuff happening while Sam Cooke is playing. It was just that whole sequence is just so brilliant.

1:14:19Bill Simmons:I'm disappointed. I thought Van was going to have a What's Age the Best hair, and I'm sad I'm going to have to do it. Okay. Just a bunch of beautiful black women in this movie, Dan. William X is back. William X. William X is here. William X. Even in the Apollo scene, there's like good ones in the crowd. It's just like Michael Mann. Michael Mann was tapping into something. Do you think that... He really was. You should go back to writing and it should be from the author of the book of basketball. He's changed his name. to William X and it's the book of black women the book of black women good ones oh my god good ones with William X here's my prologue about Jane Kennedy see that's a good one it's a good one very important person very important person this is fucking great I will say this though is that like for me personally if we get into this there's an era of fine that that this movie represents and it is harkening back to in the 60s that a lot of people wish was still around what's that Everybody look good.

1:15:23I'm not coming down on no one. I got to lose weight, so don't come for me. Right? Everybody looks good. Oh, you're saying. I know what you're saying. There's a 90s fine aesthetic. All of these women look different. They don't have the same body. They're petite women. They're tall women. The women are all different complexions. It doesn't seem like this assembly line of beauty that we see now, and that's kind of how the 90s were. That's a chapter for William X's book.

1:15:50Bill Simmons:Me and Thelma from Good Times Who's that on the left? Rembert You lying Yeah It's me and Rembert Met Thelma That's Rembert right there Yeah, Rembert Are you blind? That's Rembert, yeah I think he and I We're in the same shirt right now Okay That looks nothing like the Rem that I knew We were so excited to meet Thelma Shout out to Rem, that's my nigga Alright What's our next category? Rem is really excited to meet Thelma Like really We were like starstruck The fight scenes One last thing for a Woodstage the best. The only limitation placed on the fighters, they could hit Smith as hard as they could as long as they didn't knock him out.

1:16:28Bill Simmons:So, it's why a lot of it is like shoulders, body, like nobody's like head hunting with them, but they're fucking hitting them. Also, if they are shooting other stuff, you can't have like black eyes and be swelling and shit. Yeah, that's bad. And then they had Angelo helping out. We'll take one more break and then we'll do the rest of the categories. This episode is brought to you by the Active cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases with it big or small. So whether it's buying tickets to the game and grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases.

1:17:05Bill Simmons:Say it with me. The active cash credit card from Wells Fargo, be a two percenter. Learn more at wellsfargo.com forward slash active cash terms apply. This episode is brought to you by pure Michigan? In Grand Rapids, every moment feels like a scene worth replaying. Every riverside stroll, every slow afternoon sipping small batch brews, every guitar riff drifting out of the city's brand new amphitheater. This is a place where everything feels cinematic, like you've stepped into a highlight reel that's yours to explore. Ranked as the number one city on the rise from LinkedIn, Grand Rapids invites you to find a rhythm all your own, season after season in pure Michigan.

1:17:45Bill Simmons:Find your season at experiencegr.com. CR, what do you got for Great Chat Gordo? So there's a ton in this, but my favorite is in that opening sequence when he's training as Clay and he's on the speed bag. The camera's behind the speed bag and the way that he is punching it creates the illusion that he's almost on a film strip and it's being hit in time with the music. But it almost feels like you're watching like an old film strip because of the way the bag is affecting like the way the camera is and it that's a good one i'm just like dude you're you're the fucking man bro i love in that open that extended opening scene how fast they're walking when they're coming around the ramp and it's everybody in concert almost like they're i don't know how they're going into the press conference with like real speed and purpose it's just really cool and uh ali's entrance for the foreman fights good when the camera's behind him and he comes out and he doesn't kind of realize how many people are there and he's kind of like holy shit and the camera comes around and catches it which i think was actually will smith's reaction because i don't think he had seen it so he's kind of like jesus yeah there's also like uh the the way that it like it'll be that the screen's completely dark when he gets off the plane in zaire and it goes out and then the running in Zaire where it like is like basically somehow above him yeah and then comes in behind him that's my favorite shot the running inside he just the the it goes from being this is this full world that he hasn't explored yet to this is a guy who can fill up any world like once he gets there yeah so the camera the camera like tells you that the camera goes oh my god this is a guy it's a big place he doesn't know where he's at blah blah blah but this is Muhammad Ali so it's just like a matter of time before this world becomes his Den of Thieves Benny Hanna or Zaire obviously for sure yeah Zaire Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness that's the opening Sam Cooke was there a better title for this movie?

1:19:50Bill Simmons:you floated one or did you float one? yeah what'd you say? what was yours? you said you said one of you guys The Awakening of Ali like the political education the political awakening like the yeah the education of Muhammad Ali the redemption of Muhammad Ali yeah something like that like if you just wanted to do a boxing movie I'd call it The Champ is Here you know like I mean The Champ is Here The Champ is Here is not bad what do you think of that one Craig? I like it Ali should have fucking sold itself like Ali should be like yeah I know what movie I'm going to use you probably have to go with Ali but you have to go with Ali I think now it would probably be Ali colon The Champ is Here the way they name movies now Cassius X what's your flex?

1:20:33the Todd Parker award for best character entrance goes to Jamie Foxx as Bundini Brown I'm called Bundini rhymes with Houdini he was a Jew too some people call me Fast Black some people call me Daddy Mac and then the shit where he's just like call him shorty cause he likes him circumcised like this movie introduces Foxx I know he's only in like six scenes or seven scenes or whatever But man, like when Michael Mann introduces Jamie Foxx, he's like, that's the star. And I'm telling you, the reason why I think he introduces him that way is because he's really introducing Muhammad Ali's performance persona to the audience.

1:21:17That's what these characters are all. Yeah. Like Malcolm X is his political stuff. This is the making of this guy. and then when Jamie Foxx comes in, the reason why, because even when you watch it, you go like, this guy's not in the movie at all. Well, when they go into the press conference, they're saying the lines together. Right. He's introducing you to that part of him because the first thing we see from him is the Emmett Till stuff, the work ethic. You see the building of a champion. And Angelo is running everything. And Angelo's running everything. And then when Bundini comes in, it's like, oh my God, this is how this is what took for this guy to be to become our lead I like how he also just talks

1:21:57Bill Simmons:between rounds as Dundee's talking yeah cause that's why if you watch the fights he's just fucking yapping he's doing a podcast as Dundee's like hey watch the right Bundy's just on the side going nuts nobody can touch you champ you're the best Butch's girlfriend weak link of the film we mentioned this this has to be the answer we just jumped three years I have a different one we miss so much you have a different one what do you got the original music I do not think this is the right score for this movie. What would you have had? So it's Peter Bork and Lisa Girard who did the insider music and it really works for the insider.

1:22:32But I think they should have either had an orchestral score or they should have had like a jazz score. It does not feel appropriate. It takes you out of the time zone, the time period. And I think it would have just been benefited if they had had like a really good Terrence Blanchard style jazz orchestral score. I had something different, but it was also in the actual creative. Michael Mann's grainy digital type of look works. I love it in Collateral. I obviously love it in... In this one, I don't know if it works for period. In this one, parts of it didn't feel... Like when you're in 1968? Yeah.

1:23:20Sometimes it would just take you out of it a little bit. I think that the trade-off is that the, like, Kinshasa just is a different situation if you're there with, like, a bunch of lights. Obviously. You know, like, a lot of, and I don't, you know, he will make a movie with a ton of stakes and a ton on the line, and he will be like, but the camera is on the tip of this pen, and I'm going to shove it in between these two guys while they're fighting. Right. He's a risk taker. Yeah, but, like, you know, if this movie had the, to you, the orchestral and for me the visual sweeping scale of La Blast of the Mohicans, maybe it lands with people differently.

1:23:59Bill Simmons:I threw this in the Sasha Jenkins award. Even though it's Sasha Jensen. For actor you can't believe didn't become a bigger star. Nota Gay. I don't know why she she feels like she could have gone pound for pound with all the other ones from that era. Right? Yeah. I mean she I think she's really good in this movie. She's good in everything. She's good. I have Michael T for this. That's another one. Why wasn't he a bigger star? Hey, guys. Is it possible that there's some forces at work? Hold on. Do you want me to get William X? Van X? Is it possible? Van X. Van X? Is it possible? There wasn't a climate in the town that could have as many roles for these people as what they needed to explore all of their different...

1:24:49Bill Simmons:Well, Michael Michelle was on ER. She was on ER. I mean, look. When the movie came out. Nona Gay was on, Nona Gay was in Crash. Nona Gay was in The Matrix sequel. So is it possible that there's just not enough roles for all these performers? Marvin Gaye's daughter. Another special category. How would Van Lathan get out of this one? Which one? Well, you're in Zaire and you just started dating a new girl and your wife said she was going back to Chicago to take care of your sick child, but now she's back in your room. She's upset. Do you love this new woman? And she's upset about your new girl and you're about to have a fight in two weeks.

1:25:28Bill Simmons:So what do you tell your wife? Do I love her? Yeah, I love her. And let me tell you why. I love her because I have to love her because the CIA is watching me. And by the way, you know the CIA is watching me. You know I'm being watched by the CIA. The press is on my back. Everyone's on my back. All right? I'm being surveilled. I got a lot of pressure. You know what pressure I don't need? I don't need the pressure of you. When I'm about to have the biggest fight in my entire life. Why are you doing this to me right now? Why are you doing this to me? Like, ain't nothing happened? Look at that woman.

1:26:02That's way too light-skinned for me. That's not how I even like him. I like him like you. Right. Okay? But the reality is, you're here now. Now I got to think about this. I could go out there and be killed. Have you seen this guy hit the heavy bag? Let's go. You know what? Don't even worry about this. We're going to go watch this guy hit the heavy bag. And then after we watch this guy hit the heavy bag, you then can make your mind up about whether or not you want to put this on my mind right now. Because I could be killed. Then what? You're killing me right now just by bringing this up to me. Do you know what a much shorter version of this would be?

1:26:31What? Is if Ali just did Vincent from Heat and was like, you knew when we hooked up, baby, that you were going to have to share me. With all the dead people.

1:26:43Bill Simmons:They shouldn't have thrown that in. What's age the worst? What's the worst? Will and Jada the romance maybe we still got a lot of runway we got a lot of runway and by the way it's a long life it's working for them they still got a family you know it's working for them I didn't really have any other What's Age of the Worst that we didn't mention on the original soundtrack there is a ton of R. Kelly oh he's in this one oh he's in the greatest the greatest is he? it plays in the movie I thought one of y 'all was going to use that as a needle drop that's why I'm waiting that's Bill's last sag. Bill's last sag is...

1:27:21Where am I going? William X's last sag is... Guys, I was hanging out with some people this weekend. R. Kelly. I'm back in on him. That's your...

1:27:35Bill Simmons:Why would I be hanging out with R. Kelly in this scenario? You're not hanging out with R. Kelly. I'm just listening to his music. You're just listening to his music. I'm back in on R. Kelly. That's your last sag. And then we'll know that it's over when you do that. But that's not... How about this? I never really liked R. Kelly's music. Ever? Never. I was never a huge fan. What's your favorite R &B? Not R. Kelly. But just tell me though. I mean, it was... Bill's R &B party. What's that Bill's R &B party? Give me like three songs. I know Sean shit. Sean shit. I'm going to excuse me. I know Chris shit.

1:28:04Bill Simmons:It was never like a huge R &B guy though. Oh, so you don't like it? You don't like our music? Oh, it's like the early 90s was my era for it. Right. Keith Sweat. Luther Vandross. See, why are you second guessing yourself but you talking that shit right now? I'm not second guessing myself. I'm just saying, like, I never in the 2000s. No, forget it. The 90s is where you want to be. Okay, one last. Make it last forever. Make it last. He loves Keith Sweat. I did. I really did love Keith Sweat. All right. Yeah. But that's the, but you know, the 2000s is not when the R &B, the 90s is the heyday of the R &B.

1:28:41Yeah, it's New Jack Swing. New Jack Swing and all that. Anita Baker, I put it as the third. Now, let me tell you something. I don't know if you know this,

1:28:46Bill Simmons:but these are all, like sex music songs. There you go. Yeah. That's how you do it. Bill X likes to get down.

1:28:55Bill Simmons:Or William X. I screwed up the joke. Oh, shit. Okay. Any other ones that's the worst for you? One thing. I know the kids when they watch this movie. When he's talking to Nona Gay's character, there's a conversation that they have where she talks about how he came to her school. Yeah, that's a tough one. And he remembers her even though she was like 12. She was 11 years old. Yeah, that was tough. She had a braid on. I called you a little Indian girl. It's the type of shit she is. I told you when I came to your school, baby.

1:29:29Bill Simmons:Craig, what do you got for Flex? I'm acknowledging that Jon Voight is very famous and successful as an actor and the whole thing. But for my millennial experience with Jon Voight, it's not great. I want to give him the bam out of bio, 83 point. I did not know this was Jon Voight until I saw the credits. wow because I try to not look up a lot I just watch the movie credits roll John Voight Howard Cosell blown away to me like you thought it was Coach Kilmer that's my guy Mr. Sir you know from Holes that's National Treasure Guy and to see him as Howard Cosell crushing it unrecognizable I thought he was fantastic he's a phenomenal actor whatever he thinks about anything else is his fucking business but when he gets in front of that camera he can get I'm just saying like I'm not gonna hope that is what it is but he can get busy like he really can Maybe not the greatest grandfather.

1:30:19Bill Simmons:The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford's hottest take award. This isn't really a hot take. I think that there's a version of this film that could have been made, and I think Michael Mann would have made an incredible film out of this that's just the Chauncey Eskridge story that's pretty phenomenal. Now, I don't want it as an alternative to Ali, but the idea that a guy was Martin Luther King and Muhammad Ali's lawyer at the same time is fucking incredible. And I can't believe we don't have - The Joe Morton character. Yeah, the Joe Morton character. And that we don't have a film about that and a film about that guy is pretty wild.

1:30:55What do you have? I said it already. Okay. Will acts better when he doesn't speak in the movie. And that's like really tough to do. But it's a great performance, but a fantastic performance when there's no dialogue.

1:31:09Bill Simmons:Mine is, I think there's a greatest sports movie of all time in here with a different angle, which is basically Ali and Frasier and doing it that way. And I would dump all the other stuff. Even though I like it in this movie, I don't care about who he's with. I don't care about Malcolm X. I'm just doing him versus Frasier. I don't care about Malcolm X. I'm saying for this movie. Are you doing basically Ali, Frasier, and it's heat? It's these two guys? It's Ali and Frasier and it's their three fights. Oh, the whole trilogy. That's it. Oh, okay. That's my movie. Okay. And it's about, like, it's Frasier coming up, and then it's Ollie losing the title.

1:31:47Bill Simmons:The racial politics of it. And I'm not in with Islam in the 64. I'm, like, starting around 68. There's one? Okay, wait. So are you doing co-leads in this movie? Yeah. That's the only thing. That's why it didn't happen, because it was an Ollie biopic. You're going to have to sell Joe Frasier to people. For boxing people, Joe Frasier is an incredible... Do you think Michael T. Williamson could have done Joe Frazier? Probably. I had a turn at some point in my life where I actually became Team Joe Frazier because I just thought he was put in such a horrible spot with the Ali stuff. I feel like he became the sympathetic figure eventually.

1:32:25Bill Simmons:It took me... I don't think I was in my mid-30s until I really fully saw it. So Brian Gumbel had this same thing. Brian Gumbel actually wrote this article back in the day. I remember. Oh, yeah. Oh, you talked to... So that's in When We Were Kings. So Brian's going to have to say, wait, but growing up to me is understanding. Like when you, when you listen to Marvish Frazier talk about like going to school and everybody's making fun of him at school. Cause Ali says your dad is an uncle Tom. When really this guy was not an uncle Tom. Well, he called him gorilla. Like he did some really bad stuff.

1:32:58But growing up is realizing that you're, you know, that's that about your heroes. And that once again, the biopic is what did it cost you? What are the skeletons? That's what I, you know. and Joe Frazier was one of those.

1:33:08Bill Simmons:It's basically the Ghosts of Manoa book that Mark Cram wrote. There was a Frazier documentary too, Frazier Ali, that's tilted more toward Frazier that's good, but I just think they're dynamic. And then Ali, to him it was all about selling the fight, not realizing the cost it was doing to Frazier. To me it's a more interesting movie. There is a, so I read an article back in the day about how Joe Frazier carried this his entire life, right? So bitter about it. His entire life. And this actually spilled over into Joe Frazier a lot of times being way less than sensitive about Ali's Parkinson's later on in his life.

1:33:46He was kind of a joke about it. Yeah, he's like, I still have my faculties. You can tell who won those fights. Yeah, who actually won. Who won those fights. So they were at an event together because the article was talking about how Joe Frazier needed to let it go. They were at an event together and they were like, yo, you guys should hit the heavy bag. And Joe Frazier goes, I'll hit it. And Joe Frazier, who was still in control of all of his shit, gets up there and starts wailing on the heavy bag, you know? This is like in the 80s, so he's probably like in his 50s or something like that. He hasn't lost any of the time and any of the power.

1:34:15He does all of that stuff. And he comes back feeling like, I finally fucked over this guy, right? Ali walks up to the heavy bag and goes, did you guys see that? And the whole room starts laughing. And he made a fool out of him again. And they were just like, Joe, just give it up. He just couldn't get around him.

1:34:40Bill Simmons:Casting what ifs, couldn't find any except for Will Smith turned down Ali and then Ali called Will Smith and asked him to do it. And at that point, you can't say no to Ali. And that was that. What type of shit do Will be on? I don't know. But no, I think it's justifiable that it's too intimidating of a role. Then like, what are you going to do? You're playing the most part. The man wants to do the... You're playing Will Smith. You got to try it. Well, he needed to get there. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, no, I got to do iRobot. Seriously, that's probably what he's like. I mean, that's not a deal. I got to do Bagger Vance.

1:35:12Do you think that... I mean, do you play out... Do you play out in your head, Denzel, doing this? As Muhammad Ali? I don't think it works. I don't think it works either.

1:35:20Bill Simmons:I don't think he's big enough either. He's not big enough. The Will Smith was 6 '3". That was part of what made this... He's perfect. He looks like a heavyweight. Yeah, yeah. Best That Guy Award. It's all graduated that guy's, as we mentioned. Is that Barry? Barry Shaman? I think Barry was the one I would go with. I think Barry gets it, but he's a Michael Mann, that guy. Dion Waiters. Don King. Joe Frazier. Or Veronica. Is Jamie eligible? No. No. Too much? Too much. Or Veronica Portia. I think you gotta go... I go Michael T. I go Don King. I go that too, as well. Recasting Couch Director City.

1:35:59Slight case for James Toney. Just put it out there. I had him on the list. Yeah. Spike Lee we can talk it out we can talk Oliver Stone out

1:36:12Bill Simmons:I'm glad it played out the way it did with Michael Mann because I don't think there was any way to make this movie perfect so you might as well make it stylistically incredible and again when did he make Malcolm X it was like 92 91 or 92 so if you're doing this version of the movie I don't know how he just was like yeah I'm gonna run back my Malcolm X stuff I don't know. I think he would have made a different film. He probably would have not had that stuff in at all, right? I think it would have been a really awesome movie. But I don't... I accept and like this movie the way it is. Half-Fast Center Research.

1:36:49Bill Simmons:Will Smith was a pallbearer at Ali's funeral. Will Smith and Michael Mann put up their salaries if the movie went over budget. Yeah, because Will Smith was coming off Wild Wild West, so there was some money stuff. Smith didn't want to meet Ali. for months, and then seven months in the filming, Ali came to the set, and Smith did his whole trash talk Ali thing for 15 minutes, and Ali was impressed and turned to Howard Bingham and said, how come you didn't tell me I was so crazy? Imagine doing Ali for Ali. This is the guy, bro. This is the man. Oh, you know what? For Dion, Giancarlo, I think Esposito would count for Dion, wouldn't it?

1:37:32Bill Simmons:Yeah. he's in four scenes. He's in my flex category. Okay. What's your flex category? Let's hear it. The David Caruso Stuff of Legends Award for character who definitely should have been spun off into their own sequel. I would love to see a movie with Giancarlo as Ali's dad. It's him watching all of this crazy ass shit happen to his son. I love that character. I love them too. That character reminded me so much of my dad. That character, he, think about it. That character's going from watching his son be the best amateur heavyweight to getting it. Then his son joins the Nation of Islam. And changes his name.

1:38:13Changes his name. He gotta tell, it's his name. Yeah. So he's done all of this work and now his name, Cassius Clay, is gonna be everywhere. Except it's not. It's not gonna be everywhere. A new name will be everywhere. His son marries the woman, loves the woman. He meets Bundini Brown. I think it would have been a really fucking interesting movie. It would have been awesome. There's so many characters in this movie that you could make a Howard Bingham movie. You could make... A Bundini Brown movie. You could make a Bundini movie. You could make a Cassell movie. You could make a Don King movie. I mean...

1:38:44Frazier. But the more I saw Gene Carlin on screen, the more I wanted to see it. Apex Bound. Oh, I got one more half-ass internet research. The guy... So, there's an actor named Albert Hall in this movie. Yeah, he plays Elijah Muhammad in this. But in Malcolm X, yeah. In Malcolm X, he plays a character named Baines, who is a fictitious character that was there to sort of be like... He leads Malcolm in his prison conversion, right? Right. And he introduces Malcolm to Elijah Muhammad. In this movie, he plays Elijah Muhammad. He is also the boat commander in Apocalypse Now. Apocalypse Now.

1:39:19Bill Simmons:I had some notes on his living room. Thought we could have needed more furniture. Oh, yeah, William. Yeah. William X, you can say that to the... William X, into your designer for the nation of Israel. Yeah. Yeah. When was the last time you read Way of Superior Man? Pretty big. Best of the black man. Apex Mountain. Will Smith.

1:39:40He's taking an L, though. He's coming off Wild Wild West, so he is like, he's wobbling a little. So if not this, what's his apex then? I think it's the Independence Day Man Independence Day Enemy of the State.

1:39:51Bill Simmons:We litigated this when we did Enemy of the State, I think. It's in the late 90s. After this, he does a series of like sequels and stuff. Like, yeah. I can make an argument. He goes Fresh Prince, Independence Day, Men in Black. It's tough to beat. I make an argument that Will Smith, at the absolute peak of his powers, is Hitch. 05. Absolute peak of his powers. Hitch is a movie that legitimately, everything else that we're talking about, all of that stuff, those movies have conceits, big aliens, all of that type of shit. Fresh Prince is very close to what I'm talking about. Hitch is Will Smith directly demonstrating what a devastating movie star he is.

1:40:28He charms us through the entire movie and makes it into a really good film. It's on the rewatchables list.

1:40:35Bill Simmons:Fox, no. Ali movies, yes. The Jada Will relationship, probably. James Toney, still fighting. And he's in Ali. Yeah, maybe. I think it's 90s for James Toney. Yeah, he was like the undisputed super middleweight champion. Don King impersonations in a movie, yes. Cosell impersonations? Yes. Boxing movies? No. Apex Mountain for Cosell impersonations. Don King. Ving Rhames? Do you remember that one? What was he? Ving Rhames did the Don King movie. Oh, that's on Showtime, right? Like HBO. Yeah, yeah, I saw it. Or HBO, one of those. HBO, so that was a lot more. Yeah, that's good one. The Devil is a Motherfucker.

1:41:23Bill Simmons:Michael Mann. No. It's The Insider. I think that this is, like I said, this is the end. You call it, we can call it Apex Mountain. You can call it the Imperial Phase, which is like a pop music term, but they're both like at peak of their powers per se. But I don't think this is Apex Mountain. I think it's Insider. Insider was kind of a box office disappointment though. No, but it got Oscars. It leads to like, I'm going to spend$110 million on my Ali movie. And they're like, go ahead, Michael Mann. Right. Yeah, I think that run is the Apex. and it might be anybody's apex maybe like Spielberg Denny it's not too many guys that have them back to back like that best name for a racehorse Ali Bumae it's pretty good or just Bumae Bundini Bundini's good Cruiser Hanks who would you want to see play Ali CR is it in blackface or is it no it's just makeup William X get your guy I had Hanks says Cosell.

1:42:28Okay. I mean, you'd have to. Is that the only way? Cruz doesn't have any place to do this.

1:42:37Bill Simmons:Cruz is Angelo Denny. Come on, Denny! Come on, Denny! Can I run with you? What do you have, Craig? Sure. Hank says Cosell. What options do we have? A lot of that. Bob and him. Scorsese or Spielberg? Bringing it back for this one. Scorsese. Scorsese okay picking nets we mentioned a few a big one for me they show the Ellis Quarry fight and then Ali goes and meets Joe Morton in the diner and then three weeks later MLK gets killed the Quarry fight Ellis Quarry happens three weeks after MLK got killed they fucked up the scenes I was also wondering do you think that Ali found out he won the Supreme Court case from Howard Cosell.

1:43:29Is that true? And sitting at just a table?

1:43:34Bill Simmons:I don't think that was true. I think they probably took some liberties. When Joe Frazier asked Ali if he needed any money, Ali took the money in real life. That scene was true. Really? Yeah. Ali was broke. He ran out of money. Joe would bring that up, which is you shouldn't do, by the way. We mentioned the dates that this movie desperately needed dates. and then it's a hardcore Ali nitpick, but he's speaking differently by the time we're in Zaire. Oh. He's a little slower. Yeah, it's not as bad as after Manila, but it's definitely like the guy in the 60s is fucking flying it out. You start to watch it happen, yeah.

1:44:12Bill Simmons:He's a little, you know, it's just slowing down a little bit in that they didn't. He just seems the same throughout the movie. Actually, the slowing down becomes a part of it too. They're two very distinct Ali's. there's a super fast talking Ali and then there's a slower talking Ali which is where we are yeah a lot of people remember any other nitpicks? no sequel prequel prestige TV all black cast are untouchable prestige TV would have been they had like 150 million dollars for a 10 hour they're doing it that's what the greatest is? yeah that's what it is? yeah it's a prestige it's an Amazon joint Michael B.

1:44:47Jordan and them are doing yeah who's playing Ali? I can't remember but I know that But my man, Eamon from Snowfall, is playing Sonny Liston. Okay.

1:45:03Bill Simmons:Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Fergie the Flores, Zane Lowe, Robert Evans, Dr. Charles Nichols, or someone else here? Obviously, Fox is incredible, but have you guys thought about Pete Possilway as Bundini Brown? No, I have not. No, I'm Jewish. And he's Muslim. And because of that, he tells me I need to give up certain things like pork and white women. I can give up pork, but white women, not after a little taste.

1:45:36Bill Simmons:I had Ted Levine as the FBI agent, but as Buffalo Bill. Yeah. Yeah. Have you heard of Malcolm?

1:45:48Bill Simmons:You a big fat person?

1:45:53Bill Simmons:just one Oscar who gets it interesting category Fox I go with Jamie it's Fox would you have Fox or Voight oh I'm going Voight okay that's that's Ali in the thing a guy named Jalen Best okay probably unanswerable questions I only had one why didn't more boxers try Sonny Liston's Dr. Gloves trick of course they tried the shit out of it Seems like a great idea for evil boxers. And did Sonny Liston throw the second fight? I mean, almost, definitely. Phantom Punch, depends on which lore you believe. Do you believe the lore that Ali was so quick he could land a right that the camera couldn't even catch?

1:46:33Knock somebody clean out? Probably the most crooked boxer of the last 75 years.

1:46:38Bill Simmons:Or do you believe the lore about the fact that the mafia owned Sonny Liston? I see, yeah. They made him take a thought. Also, like, if you watch it, there's a moment when he's down, when he tries to get up, and he does like this almost like pro wrestling and falls back down. It's really bad. I always thought he threw it. You think he threw it, right? Yeah, probably. The memorabilia you'd most want from this movie? The one of the toughest ones we've ever had to do for me.

1:47:07The hand tape that the ref signs to be like, I've checked, you know, in the beginning. That's awesome, yeah. I don't know what I would do with used hand tape, but still it'd be cool.

1:47:17Bill Simmons:I have the movie robe from the first Liston fight where you can see it says the lip on the back. They tried to get him going as the lip. Because guess what? Guess who didn't need a name? Ali. Just call him the greatest. What would you do? I always like those old vintage gloves. So either the gloves used that Will Smith used. By the way, with the fight scenes, they tried all kinds of stuff with gloves to make it so they would look more realistic and nothing worked. Like big, bigger, softer gloves so it could really, and nothing, nothing worked. Coach Finstack, Miss Magiware, best worst life lesson?

1:47:58Dude, free ain't easy, free is real, and real is a motherfucker. Yep. Okay. Best of future choice, I have When We Were Kings.

1:48:04Bill Simmons:Malcolm X. I have Malcolm X. Okay. Chris X. Tough one, who won the movie?

1:48:14I'm going to say Michael Mann because that's why I watched the movie. Now, I would say that, but I do think that his visual style, while fans' points really well taken about whether it works for period, I think his visual style is the reason I returned to this film. All I know is you can't necessarily say that Will won the movie. I think, actually, this is one of the rare situations where Will's kind of out. And after that... He did get nominated for the first time. He did get nominated for the first time. He did get nominated for the first time. I personally, when I watched on a rewatch... this is stupid.

1:48:46I kind of think Jamie Foxx won the movie. I think as, like, a blueprint or proof of concept. And using it as, like, Yeah, I think kind of Jamie Foxx won the movie. And obviously, Man is like, that's my fucking guy. Yeah, they go back and they do collateral again

1:49:00Bill Simmons:and all that stuff. that makes sense. I have Will Smith in the moment and then over the years Michael Mann. Because I think he's the reason to keep coming back to this even though it's a pretty, you know, it's a biopic. Yeah. I don't think I'll be watching the Freddie Mercury biopic 25 years from now but this keeps sucking me in. The Freddie Mercury biopic has some good scenes in it. What's William X think of Freddie Mercury biopic? He enjoys it. Oh, okay. Yeah, like Freddie's music. Yeah.

1:49:30Bill Simmons:William X contains so many different... Craig, you never saw this movie. No. You blanched at the time. You were scared. It was a little long. I mean, it really was long. It's like a fucking football game. Yeah, but once it gets rolling you're like, all right. I thought the acting across the board in this movie was superb. Like, I thought everybody was just fantastic. I thought there were a lot of shit. Like, Zaire was amazing. The Cosell stuff I thought was great. The Malcolm X stuff I thought was great. I don't know. It's probably a generational thing, but I felt I just kind of disconnected this movie.

1:49:58I don't know why. I just felt like something was missing out of this movie, and I don't know what it was. I think I struggled with... I couldn't really feel the weight of Ali's talent as a boxer in this movie. Like, to be honest, I wasn't like, this guy is an amazing boxer watching the movie. Like, I just know what's funny about that. That's the one thing that the movie being made for us that you don't have to convince us of. Right. And I, you know, other than like clips here and there, I don't really know. Like, I was kind of bummed that we didn't really get a lot of the feet stuff, which I understand Will Smith can't do.

1:50:30But the movie magic of trying to really make, maybe I'm just like Rocky and Creed brained or I like a little bit more of the theatrical boxing style. But like when the movie ended, I was kind of like, I don't know. I was like I don't exactly know what my takeaway is supposed to be or what the point of view is supposed to be from this movie but I enjoyed it maybe it's about too many different things maybe it could be maybe the movie is a little bit about political stuff a little bit about personal stuff like it didn't seem that much about boxing to me when the movie ended at boxing I was like oh okay

1:50:59Bill Simmons:do you think we'll ever get to the point where we can just CGI the actor's face over the actual boxing footage for a boxing movie we don't want that why would you want that I don't know I'm asking I'm asking that. I think the answer is yes. We could definitely do that. We could probably do it right now. Like it's Muhammad Ali. Will Smith's face on old Muhammad Ali footage. I'm saying for some of the, just slide it in so that we get all the athleticism and stuff from Ali. So the thing is, they do, they like DH actors and put them and make them like... Yeah, like the Irishman. You like the Irishman.

1:51:31Bill Simmons:I'm saying, would we ever cheat? Could you accept it? Like you put Muhammad Ali's legs on Will Smith or something. Almost like what they tried to do with Forrest Gump when they put Forrest in the different... Well, I mean, what you're really asking for is for there to be like an AI facsimile of... Because that would work the best, right? Like, what you're asking for is an AI facsimile that can approximate the speed, power, and position. But then just watch a fucking Muhammad Ali YouTube video. That's the problem. Yeah. That's the thing. I think if you wanted to do something where it was like, I want Timothee Chalamet to play like a middleweight fighter, but he's, you know, like there are limits of what he can do.

1:52:08well that's a good example though

1:52:10Bill Simmons:because the ping pong was all AI he wasn't actually playing ping pong it was CGI he was playing ping pong but wasn't playing at the level of the movie the deal here is that when you're a boxer something you've been doing it's something you've been doing since you're 8 or 9 years old and they're like fast and slow twitch muscle things there's movement, there are angles there's all of that stuff that you just can't get ready for in a movie camp to kind of look like you know how to do it there's a lot of things like that so you just I'm glad that it's refreshing to see William X open to new technology because a lot of our religious leaders are a little bit you know oh William X when is the next Million Man March?

1:52:56Bill Simmons:you know what's a good boxing movie? for boxing scenes? The Hammer with Adam Carolla is that? oh yeah it is because Carolla actually boxed One of the rare ones. Everyone else kind of learns how to box for the movie. But rarely do we get the actor leading the movie who actually boxes. Boxes a little bit. Did Stallone box? Did he mess around in a gym? No, he kind of learned how to do it. Is there a boxing story that you would love to see made into a movie? A fighter, a fight? Easy for me. Emile Griffin. Oh, good documentary. Emile Griffin. Why, Bill? Because he killed somebody in the ring. that's not why well and and had some just hiding some secrets yeah he was gay the whole time middleweight yeah like just one of the most dominant middleweights fucking over everybody but also gay guy and the guy I killed in the ring kept making fun of him for being gay oh wow and he killed him in the ring Jesus it's a good documentary did they make a Ward Gotti movie?

1:54:02Bill Simmons:well they they did not but they made the fighter but somehow word got he was in it I always thought a great movie would be Sugar Ray Leonard winning the Hearns fight getting into like cocaine and the detached retina and then the five years leading to the Hagrid fight and trying to beat Hagrid Did Sugar Ray get to and obviously Emile Griffin is much more obscure than Sugar Ray that would be about the story and not about the thing did Sugar Ray get to biopic level? I mean I personally think he did for some of the movies that have been biopics? Like, did Cinderella Man get to a biopic level? That's more about the depression and shit, though.

1:54:40Bill Simmons:Sugar Ray was the most famous fighter since Ali before Tyson. He was. Like, he definitely was. But, like, there was something to where he seemed like a bridge between Ali and Tyson. Like, he held it down. So, But to me, that, the Sugar Ray story is, like, Ralph Sampson getting hurt in the 86 finals, but then coming back and winning the 93 finals or something. Like, it felt like his career was kind of over. The attached retina seemed like a death sentence. And he started to have a whole bunch of issues. Right. Then came back and then when he fought Hagrid, he was like a 4-1 underdog. Like four years, three years off?

1:55:19Bill Simmons:How many years off? It took five. Yeah, like, it just comes back. Fought him in 87. Do you, like, do you, does any of this ring a bell at a none of you? I mean, I know all these names, obviously, but, you know. Yeah. 80s, man. CR thank you thank you for having me thank you Craig and Gahau thank you Eduardo thank you anyone else to thank Matt Matt thank you we'll be back next week on the rewatchables with the 30 year anniversary of She's the One which you can watch on Netflix before we do the podcast there you go

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