‘American Gangster’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Van Lathan

21:42Bill Simmons:the deep by the way a classic definitely watch this on Tubi movie it starts out with Jacqueline Bissette in a white t-shirt scuba diving with Nick Nolte for like 8 minutes and then getting back on the boat just white t-shirt you can see through everything hang you're like oh this is gonna be a fun hang with with a half name and then all of a sudden voodoo's involved and luke ossett's like an evil haitian guy uh but yeah they rope you in and then they get into the pot cr remembers no i'm just imagining what's gonna happen when you get your hands on like the ai tech that's like voice to video where you're just like i just want to see jess gal the scuba dive for like 20 more minutes and they just make a video but it's true because really they're getting close this is one of the thing when craze generation took over they stopped doing this they stopped getting us to the movies with fucking Craig's generation oh cause it's like the woke mind virus kept Jessica Alba out of scuba gear we stopped going to the movies they would say hey we want you to know that there is a ridiculously good looking person in this film and you should come watch it and then we're going to do a movie as well Paul Walker for the latest can I refer you to the film that just won best picture we're back could be could be back could be back my generation's bringing it back now well so Denzel in the rewatchable standings Cruise has been 17 rewatchables Pacino and De Niro were tied for second place at 13 and Denzel is at 12 he has now moved into second place and we have several several Denzel movies including some huge ones right some huge ones even like come on deja vu out of time well this is my favorite era what's the one with with Son of Latham So nah.

23:26Bill Simmons:So nah. That's out of town. I love that movie. That's out of town. But we have to save that for Sleazy Florida Keys month. Oh, yeah. We just have that, things, and I don't know what the other two are. What's the Florida Keys with Gene Hackman and Melanie Griffith? Young Melanie Griffith? Night Moves? Night Moves. Is Miami Blues in the Florida Keys? No, that's Miami. That's a Miami. Yeah. Yeah. We'll find Florida. We'll all it. But Sleazy Florida Keys, not enough time. that in new Orleans, the two most underrated movie locations. Uh, anyway, Denzel, uh, make it happen. And then Russell Crowe. Oh, I should mention one thing with Denzel.

24:04Bill Simmons:So remember the Titans is 2000 training day. When's the Oscar, John Q, Antoine Fisher at a time, man on fire. My single favorite Denzel performance, as we've discussed, Manchurian candidate, really interesting movie. It's aged. Fantasy is a big Manchurian guy of the Demi one. Yeah. Inside Man. Deja Vu. American Gangster. That's about, that's an eight-year run that's about as good as it gets. It's also like made for us. Yeah. Right? Like that's like a list of films. That's ten movies in a row over the span of eight years that you could just take on a desert island and be probably okay with. You always wonder how someone's going to respond to the Best Actor, Best Actress Academy Award.

24:52like now, especially when somebody wins it like Denzel. Denzel, who had been a Hollywood mainstay for all of this time, right? A bunch of movies, people loved him in these films. And then he makes it to the top of the mountain with the best actor. Now, Denzel, solidified, top five, top 10 leading man, maybe of all time.

25:17Bill Simmons:And that also, because he was a black actor, that also had like triple significance. Huge. The Oscars didn't even know black people existed until 1970. The 90s were bad for that. So huge. And what does he do? How does he round into being this gigantic magnetic star? And then he kind of gives you every different part of Denzel with all of these movies. But all of these movies have edge. They're edgy performances. Which when you look back at the 90s, it's not that Denzel wasn't in edgy movies. it was that he gave you a different side of himself than he did in the 2000s. He also, I think in the 2000s, creates the idea of like a Denzel Washington movie rather than being another people's movies.

26:01The season tickets thing. Yeah.

26:02Bill Simmons:I have a movie coming out and you will see it. And I think guys like, I mean, the first person who jumps to mind who has obviously tried to like mimic that, although I do not think he's anywhere close to the same actor, is Wahlberg. Where, you know, Wahlberg will make a family movie, an action movie, and a drama. and like has a lot and he's making more and more action and thriller stuff now but denzel kind of like decides like what i like doing is working with these guys i like making these kinds of movies and i'm gonna make two of them a year or one of them a year and always have something going and now you know more recently yeah tragedy of macbeth you know doing the august wilson films you know like he's he's coming he he's trying different things but for that 2000s run he's kind of making Denzel Incorporated movies, you know?

26:48Bill Simmons:Yeah. Well, he's also goes head to head with Hanks. Hanks is his big kind of rival in the 90s, right? But they're in a movie together that they elevate each other. Hanks is his rival in the 90s. And Russell Crowe is his rival in the 2000s. Hanks is his rival. Because Cruise is kind of over here. Yeah, but I think look, so American Gangster is like 98 % sounds like pretty much made up. I was going to get to that. The Based on a true story, which then you can just do anything you want. The guy's name was Frank Lucas. Now let's go nuts. Yeah, I really like Russell Crowe's performance in this movie, but there is a question of whether or not Russell Crowe is almost too deferential and too, like, I'm going to be down here so that Denzel can be up here in the course of this film.

27:37And what would have happened if Russell Crowe had kind of chewed more scenery and made Richie a larger-than-life character in that way? looking back on it when I watched it it almost felt like he did it like as a favor like Russell Crowe the character doesn't have any bite like at all well Ridley

27:55Bill Simmons:Scott was this guy yeah just done a good year together they'd done gladiator obviously and I think he just wanted to do another movie with him they seem like they beefed the part up a little bit for him this was the Russell Crowe run speaking of runs this goes back to 99 mystery Alaska, which we've not done yet. Where do you stand on that movie? I like that movie. The Insider, Gladiator, Proof of Life. When are we doing the reproof? Where do you stand on that? Well, I remember this was very controversial. I enjoyed the movie, but I said that the movie was the film that like, you know what? What am I fucking doing?

28:33I don't like that shit. You don't like Proof of Life? No. How'd you start it? I like that movie. He doesn't like the cuck part. Yeah. He doesn't like hostage cuckiness. I don't like, so I like Proof of Life as a movie. Proof of Life is okay. Wait a second. Listen, here's the deal. Proof of Life does not exist as a movie to me. It exists as the cucking of a man and the ruining of his, like, I can't separate the movie from the scandal. I can't. I can't. The movie itself is okay. But it ruined America's Sweetheart Meg Ryan. You know what it is?

29:06Bill Simmons:Stuff of legends! It ruined America's Sweetheart Meg Ryan. It bears Dennis Quaid She had to die for the movie Dennis Quaid did not ever get it back together after that He never did, the movie is just like a bunch of fucking mess Well, Sierra and I love it And he followed it up with a beautiful mind Then Master and Commander Remember Concepcion was a big Master and Commander guy I'm a big Master and Commander movie I need to get that in another world I am Cinderella, man Many, many, many people are Now that's an underrated movie to me Yeah, I think there was just too many boxing movies in a row Man, that to me I gotta watch that one again That is an underrated movie When people talk about sports movies And particularly boxing movies They don't mention it as much as they should I love that movie Is that Ron Howard?

29:46Ron Howard

29:46Bill Simmons:A Good Year, 310 to Yuma, an American Gangster That's all nine years It's the best of 2000s I think of all actors That is the best movie out of all of those movies to me Besides The Insider Love that fucking movie He won the 2000s I think He was in the most high end good movies 2000 to 2010 Anyway, this was it This was kind of the last one This is The next year He's in that weird Leo movie So when you watch American Gangster Are you like I wish He hadn't taken a couple of miles per hour Off the fastball Do you wish like He was a little bit more I gotta say I really like the crow parts I just think it's a It's a different movie Yeah We're kind of over here I don't The child custody stuff is just bad They should have cut it None of that makes That should not be in the film at all I do like Fuck me like a cop You like that Don't fuck me like a lawyer Oh Oh he they that's the part of the movie that's overstuffed we just don't need to know that about him and by the way in real life he didn't have a kid I know it's like why is this in here they were like oh we gotta beef up gotta beef up this character it's like nah you actually don't I guess it's an attempt to give him an arc give him anything you don't know anything about him but it's like interesting enough that he's like I'm trying to go to night school and I don't like public speaking those feel like real details the kid stuff is just like it's the classic like the cop has to be neglecting his family to do his work but we do get Carla Guggenau we do but once again like not in the perfect way yeah she just never landed the plane in any of these movies and I just want to do her career over again so many at best Sin City um oh that is true yeah but here's the thing we already had the the crow piece of this that made me understand him is that he gave the money back.

31:37Bill Simmons:He's honest. That's it. That's all we need. Honest dude. He's not like these other cops. We're good. Drilling in on him as a police man, that would have been better than any of the family's stuff. Or even what was really interesting to me was the pressure from his old friends trying to bring him into the criminal life. Yeah. Like all of that stuff. Give me two more scenes with that. Two more scenes with that. And like people stink eyeing him again in the police station. Craig, Russell Crowe, Denzel, you grew up with these guys. Denzel, obviously bigger. But what's your Russell Crowe relationship?

32:16I think always seen as a guy who could do like a ton of different things. I always, Russell Crowe was one of the best actors in my mind growing up. A Beautiful Mind and Gladiator were probably the two biggest movies that I remember growing up. He was just like a guy who was always in the top five, I think, for me.

32:29Bill Simmons:Yeah, the cool thing, we talked about this when we did The Insider. the ability to do the gladiator type of movie but then to also be able to just slip into like the insider guy or a character like this an insider he's kind of you don't even know it's him yeah and he's also kind of the marshmallow man in that movie he's the guy being poked around who doesn't know his thing between 310 to Yuma and gladiator the 310 to Yuma character is the most alpha character in a movie ever That movie's so good. Like, ever. Just getting to it. When he gets the fork, he steals the fork, and then he just wakes up.

33:11He wakes up and he's killing that guy and the whole deal. And they pull him off of him and he's laughing. I'm like, this guy is fucking diabolical, but amazingly charming as well. It's funny. So he hits the 2010s and then it's over.

33:25Bill Simmons:Yeah, and I think he partied pretty hard off the set. I think he's kind of moved into like he's a different version of himself. Kind of. I mean, he's not making exactly like Redbox movies, but he's in like three exorcism movies a year now. Yeah. By the way, I've seen all of them. But at least we didn't have a Mel Gibson moment with him. The other Australian kind of that part of the world with, you know, hard partying dudes. We didn't have a Russell Y. Russell Y. Yeah. Did you ever see Land of Bad? I liked Land of Bad. Where he's the drone. drone pilot. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. He's been all right.

34:05You know, it's funny is he ends up playing Jor-El in Man of Steel. Yeah. And so, yeah, you know, I just found this out because I'll never see that movie. Well, he played Jor-El in Man of Steel. Actually, the best parts of Man of Steel to me, the beginning parts were there in Krypton, which is like really good stuff to me. But his career kind of goes in like a Brando-ish, older Brando-ish way.

34:26Bill Simmons:Yeah. Where, you know, Brando physically changes, obviously. and he is bringing more of his reputation as Marlon Brando to movies than actual real characters. Certainly did that in the Exorcism movies. Yeah. It's like, that's Russell Crowe. He's put the cue cards right there. He likes them a little closer. Can you use red ink on the cue cards so he can make sure? We're going to take a break. We'll talk about the rest of the big picture stuff here. All right, so we talked about Brolin. Four Oscar winners in this movie. Denzel, Russell Crowe, Common, and Cuba Gooding Jr. And then Josh Berlin, Ruby Dee, John Hawks.

35:07Bill Simmons:What was he nominated in? The Jennifer Lawrence movie? The one where he's paraplegic, I think. Oh, yeah, yeah. And Chouetet. Oh, yeah. And Chouetet. Ejavour. How do you say his name? Chouetet. Chouetet. I knew I was going to mangle that one. He got nominated, too. Loaded cast, plus a bunch of that guys. That's an understatement. I mean, it's like a 26 person where you're like, yep, yep, yep, yep. Including, I think, some CR all-stars. Yes. Yeah. Including? Richie Koster, John Ortiz. John Ortiz? Richie Koster. Yeah. Who just comes in hot. Who plays the crazy killer in Black Hat. But in this is Richie's childhood friend who's now in the mafia.

35:53Bill Simmons:Is it possible Michael Mann and Ridley Scott just shared a Google Doc with actors they liked? I just think that those guys are like, yeah, I'm ready to go. Like, put the camera on me. New York guys. Yeah. Throw them in a movie. If you need the movie to feel authentic, you want to put some texture to the movie, you throw them in. Costner's English, I think, or Welsh. Yeah. But yeah, it's crazy. That's how they use it. Yeah, yeah. So the story of the movie, we'll get to some of those guys when we do the categories. but there was a New York magazine story called Return of Superfly in 2000. Mark Jacobson.

36:24Great.

36:25Bill Simmons:Yeah, good story. I remember when it came out, it was like, holy shit, what an amazing. And then Universal Imagine purchased the rights. Fincher, we're doing most of the casting windows here, but you kind of have to because it's the issue of the movie. Fincher kicks the tires, couldn't figure out a budget. They start negotiating with De Palma and the movie's called True Blue at that point, falls through. Antoine Fuqua Denzel Benicio Del Toro as Richie that's March 2004 it's happening Fuqua gets fired over creative differences Peter Berg almost comes in right around when he's doing the Friday Night Lights movie Denzel like approves of Peter Berg coming on if that's what's gonna happen budget so high the studio panics they back out they cancel production Denzel and Del Toro have pay or pay Denzel just gets 20 million Del Toro gets 5 Sounds amazing.

37:16Bill Simmons:What a great gig. I have that for big picture episodes. Yeah.

37:22Bill Simmons:Almost gets revived in 05 with Will Smith. Uh-huh. That movie sucks. I'm just kidding. Like Will Smith trying to be Frank Lucas. That movie's going to be bad. Yeah. It's not going to work. They bring in another screenwriter named Terry George who plans on downsizing the budget, writes a script, and he's going to get his guy from Hotel Rwanda, Don Cheadle, fans guy. Okay. I'm going to text him right now. I will. He was going to be Frank Lucas. They turned down the screenplay. Steve Zalian, who wrote the original screenplay, now he's back. Yep. And all of a sudden, we have Scott and Denzel and Crow.

37:57Bill Simmons:And I remember that. I'd forgotten until I did the research, but remember they were calling it the Black Godfather. Yeah. They were filming it. Yeah. They're like, this is it. This is the Black Godfather. Also, just to throw in, somewhere in there, there is a Richard Price draft of like either a rewrite of the Terry George script or there's a draft of Richard Price's script. I couldn't find it. I don't know if it's like actually even in existence. They go back to this huge, like 170 page Zalien script. But when you look at like the names involved with the shepherding slash almost did this, it's one of the great, like, oh, I could sit here all day and think about what the De Palma version would have been.

38:35How about, what is the Fincher version of this?

38:38Bill Simmons:Oh, I mean, it would have been. It's just all the process. It probably steers more toward Richie, right? Can you imagine Fincher and Denzel Washington working together? I mean, Fincher asking Denzel for the 71st take. Do a hundred takes of one scene. My man, we're done. Yeah, like, can you imagine that? The Fuqua version, I learned a lot about the business through the painful production process of this movie. Because the Fuqua version was being Ballyhooed and people were talking about it. Antoine Fuqua and Denzel reuniting, doing another movie after training day. And it comes out that Denzel has gotten already$20 million.

39:12They've paid him. And it's pay or play. What does pay or play mean? Meaning that they've paid him, and he gets the money to know whether they make the movie or not. It doesn't matter. And then, so you're figuring out they're going to make this if they paid$20 million to Denzel Washington. Benicio Del Toro didn't even know. And then year after year, the movie's not coming. The movie's not coming. The movie's not coming because you don't understand that it's going through so many different odds. And to me, it still feels like the crux of the creative differences with Antoine Fuqua is that he wanted to focus his movie on Frank Lucas, and he did not want the Richie Roberts character to be as big of a deal.

39:50And maybe that's almost what Denzel thought that he was doing as well. So when you saw the film, when it came out, you go, oh, the movie has been really scotted a little bit, almost like Clockers. Yeah. Clockers was when... Scorsese was going to direct it. It was more on Harvey Keitel's character. It was going to focus on it. It was going to be De Niro, too. Right, and then Denzel gets it. Excuse me, Spike Lee gets it. And then Spike Lee reorients the movie to be around Mikai Pfeiffer's character. And it's a completely different film. It's almost like this movie happens, but in the reverse here.

40:24Bill Simmons:They're like, Denzel, here's where we are. And he's like, am I still getting my 20 million? Do you want to weigh in on script? Am I still getting my 20 million? I'll be there. When's our first day of filming? I just think he was moving from movie to movie at this point. I think that's his process. Denzel or? I think he wants to work with a director that he likes and if he likes the story and likes the character he's in, he's good like he's cranking out basically a movie every nine months at this point you know, you're moving on fast his first$20 million paycheck first time it ever happened for him this is a very difficult thing to balance in these kinds of genre movies where you've got the crook and the criminal and they don't they're not necessarily in contact I mean, they're when does Richie figure out it's Frank at the fight, right?

41:09That fight is like... Oh, no, no, the fight, but even then more so with his friend. Remember his friend goes, leave Frank Lucas alone, and Richie goes, huh? Oh, the mafia guy. Yeah, yeah. He's like, I'm here to give you a message to leave Frank alone. That's an hour and a half into the mafia. That's not even like Vincent Hanna being like, this crew is good in the first 10 minutes of heat, even though he doesn't know who he's talking about. So it's a delicate balance. and then to your point like where Clockers like if you read the novel Clockers like there's it's 50-50 between Strike and the detective and like the detective has like all this personal stuff going on and that and yeah like the director will orient it and weight it kind of like where he wants to go Sierra likes the new studio

41:57Bill Simmons:he's doing his thing he's doing his thing he's doing his thing he's like he's like moving around that's right Steve's Alien for 93 he read Searching for Bobby Fisher which we did the rewatchables. Clear and Present Danger, Schindler's List, Mission Impossible, The Civil Action, Hannibal, Gangs of New York, The Interpreter? What was that one? That was the Sean Penn, The Full Kidman movie. All the Kingsman, American Gangster, Moneyball, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. And that's all in less than 20 years. And he just directed and wrote Ripley on Netflix last year and he had done The Night Of with Richard Price a couple of years ago.

42:33Bill Simmons:So there you go. Anyway, they finally make the movie Kind of a comeback movie for him a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. All the Kingsmen, tough. And then Ridley Scott, who this will be, I think, the fifth or sixth one we've done for him. Is that all? Every seven years, he just has like an eternal banger. Alien, 79. Blade Runner, 82. Black Rain, 89. For me and CR. Heavy. Oh, I'll send you your invite for Black Rain. you're watching. No, that one's one I fuck with heavy, criminally underrated. Thelma and Louise, 91. G.I. Jane, 97. Gladiator. Gangster. Martian in 2015. You don't go more than seven years without him being heard from.

43:24Although we have now because he's about 100 years old. He's basically making a movie and prepping a movie at the same time and he's been doing that for basically the last 30 years. And I think he has an incredibly high floor and an increasingly lower and lower ceiling. But every once in a while. Because he's 82. Older than Jerry Jones.

43:41Bill Simmons:Yeah, exactly. Ridley Scott definitely would have traded back a person. Ridley Scott is like, we're getting two first round picks? And you, like Napoleon, right? Yeah. You would have thought that there was no way that the movie could miss. Yeah. Because the last duel, fantastic. Football coaches and directors. You would have thought that there's no way, and then you go and you watch Napoleon. it is a mess and you're like how is with all of the talent and how is this this boring did you ever see The Duelist's first movie yeah it's awesome I've never seen that it's fucking amazing yeah it's really weird but then he also he has smaller movies it's a Tubi classic yeah but like Matchstick Men is good he's the king of I saw it in the theater and I was so excited and it wasn't as good as I thought it was gonna be and then 10 years later you're like you know what Robin Hood's okay you know I kind of enjoy Costner's seven accents in this movie now Even this, American Gangster is, and a lot of the stuff that we've talked about this film, a lot of the people that they threw in this movie is because I think you can feel the pressure of making this movie a huge, huge deal for everybody in it with the amount of people that is in it, Com and T.I.

44:52Everyone got to go see it. So they overstuffed the film because after all the rumors and after everything they had put into the production, they needed people to get out to the theaters to go see this. It was a big part of Denzel's career, all of that stuff. But also, just in the Ridley Scott, Denzel Washington portion of this movie, these drug dealer biopics, they're not as many of them as you think they are. Right. Most of the drug dealers... So you're saying we need more? Well, I'm saying that they're hard to make.

45:25Bill Simmons:Yeah. Most of the drug dealer movies that are legendary are about fictional characters. these stories don't turn out well. You got this, you have Played in Full, you have Blow. All of those movies end up in profound tragedy. Somebody going to jail, leaving their daughter, whatever, whatever. And so these films - Yeah, nobody just gets away. Yeah, I mean, also the more nuanced, complicated versions of these stories has moved into television. So, like, I mean, Bumpy Johnson, that's Godfather now. But Narcos and The Wire kind of, like, created a much higher standard of, like, Here's the nuances of how this stuff works.

46:03Our new show. Task. Wait till you see Task. I saw you guys were getting really excited about it. The movies aren't easy to make. Big boner. Did you say big boner? Big TV boner for Task. Is it that good?

46:17Bill Simmons:I saw you guys doing prestige on it. Craig, what's your best one season HBO show ever? True Detective? Okay. I think it's as good as True Detective. Season one, True Detective? I do. Wow I've only seen three episodes though I'm on I'm Wait I watched the first one But I don't want to watch ahead So we I watched ahead only Because we We banked a couple prestige pods You think it's True Detective season one Level good I do Wow I do And I As you know I don't say stuff like that lately I was blown away Okay Also Set in a CR's Pennsylvania I thought you were going to say something And CR was in a biker gang When he was there That's right So it's like There's a lot of like Me and Sir Kristen Cole Riding around Philly two Oscar nominations for this movie Art Direction and Ruby Dee for Supporting Actress I forgot this until I did the research this was one of the first sabotage campaigns because they were so loose with the facts it became a huge story as we headed toward the Oscars when this came out people were like Denzel's getting nominated and by the time we got to the Oscars people were like they made all this shit up in the movie no way it kind of happened with Gladiator 2 just recently where it was like, oh, Denzel nailed on.

47:29It's going to happen. Yeah.

47:32Bill Simmons:$100 million budget made$269 million. How about this, Van? Biggest opening weekend out of any film for either Denzel or Russell Crowe. I can see that. In 07. Yeah. Roger Ebert. He's right to your right. He's looking at you right over there. Two books right there. I read this review. Four stars. Unbelievable. Wow. An engrossing story told smoothly and well. Russell Crowe's contribution is enormous. He was really into Crowe. And he said, the film ends not with a Scarface-style shootout, but with Frank and Richie sitting down for a long, intelligent conversation written by Zalian and showed two smart men who both know the score.

48:16Bill Simmons:As I hinted above, less Godfather than Wall Street. Blah, blah, blah. Raj. Really into it. Really liked our 400th movie. All right, let's do the categories. So here's why you know it's a rewatchable. I have like 14 rewatchable seats. It's a whole fucking... Including the opening credits because this movie starts with Denzel setting a guy on fire and shooting him six times. And we're off. Yeah. Totally kind of like, you're like, okay, here we go. All right, I'll just throw out some and then if I forgot any, tell me after. Richie finds$987 ,000 in her trunk in debates with his partner, John Ortiz, what to do.

48:54Bill Simmons:We'll be fucking pariahs. Cops kill cops they can't trust. Is that true, CR? In the 1970s, perhaps. We also get Ted Levine. Didn't mention him in the top. Yep. He's the sergeant. You're a big fat person. You don't know what pain is, lady. Love seeing him. I can't unsee him every time I see it. I think he just I kept changing hairstyle. How his hair is, what he's doing. I see that every time. I can't unsee it. It puts the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose again. Yes, she will, precious. Small scene, but I like when Richie screams at the park hoodlums when he's arguing with his wife. Oh, yeah.

49:43Bill Simmons:Yeah, good times. I just wrote down Denzel goes to Bangkok. I don't even know. There's like four scenes in here. Chiang Kai-shek's defeated army, man. When has it ever been bad to go to Bangkok in a movie like this? I'm going to say never. It's also like it is the movie that wasn't there, but you're like, this guy going to Bangkok and the Golden Triangle and negotiating with this fallen army for uncut heroin would have been... Ben, do you come back from 1970s Bangkok? No, there's one scene... Are you in one of those coffins? There was one scene where, you know... Denzel calls his connect and the guy's getting a massage and I'm like, that's the life I'm supposed to be living, man.

50:26Just multiple massage people. Multiple massage people. And I don't know about the Bangkok part, but I do know like in Saigon, that was true that there was like a lot of black GIs had clubs and stuff like that. Yeah, sure. And they kind of, some of them, once again, I was about to say that, like that's the more interesting film, navigating that. Some of them stayed there, made lives there, had children there, the whole nine, yeah.

50:47Bill Simmons:Yeah. All right. more rewatchable scenes okay um we haven't talked about this yet jake unravels john ortiz i had to do a man um so john ortiz for the people who don't really he's he's he's the guy who jumps out of the car in this movie yeah after he's they have to uh this is the scene where they have to pretend this guy's still alive they wheel him out even though he obviously killed this drug dude and stole money from him and he's lost his way same guy from miami vice yes who played uh the one who worked with with uh or who was what was the name of the bad the main bad guy the cute the main cuban yeah or the guy who's in the columbian jungle yeah um and he becomes the villain of the movie and he's amazing in that movie he was also in a couple other ones so we'll talk about later those way he's in Carlito's way yeah I'm a leper cause I listened to you and I gave up a million bucks he's just on one I like when people jump out of cars in movies too I feel like you're gonna just die every time when you do that there's two really crucial like connections that they make earlier one is when the John Pulido is talking to Frank Lucas or the John Pulido character is talking to Denzel's character about they're still stepping on the French Connection dope.

52:15Like the cops who got Popeye Doyle's dope from Marseille are stealing it from the evidence room, stepping on it and selling it. And it's like heroin is, it just sucks now. Right. And there's no order anymore. And these cops are such bastards. So like the connection to the French Connection, the film and the story, and then also just the idea that if you were an upstanding cop in 1970s New York, you were a pariah. and that would drive the John Ortiz character to drug use. That's one observation. One thing that the movie really gets right is all of the competing cultural narratives in the 70s. The corruption of the cops.

52:56Harlem exploding as a center with celebrities and partying, but also this tremendous drug use. And then just sort of Frank Lucas and his criminal connection to the source in Vietnam, to all of the stuff that's happening on the street. Yeah, and also just like an entire generation of men coming back from Vietnam and one in three of them has got an opium problem. And they have a drug problem, yeah. So that part of the movie really gets all of that stuff right.

53:27Bill Simmons:Craig, out of your two fantasy partners, Danny and Danny, who's more likely to lose it like John Ortiz does in this and jump out of a van? I think this is constantly on the verge of jumping out of moving cars because of a bad fantasy. Keep an eye on him. He's getting paid under the table by fantasy. So it's everyone's doing it, man. Next one. If Jackson Dart flops, Heifetz will jump out of a moving car. The blue magic drug montage scene. I love the making it, making the drugs montage is always fun. Right into Richie in the courtroom, right into the kitchen with his, with his lawyer, with his lawyer, which I'm going to, we rarely get to get this out.

54:06Bill Simmons:The, I used to fuck guys like you in prison award for craziest quotes. is to KD Strickland. Richie fucked me like a cop, not a lawyer. Boy. Was there like a, is there a different way? Like a lawyer, he would have been like more gentle? What's she trying to get at their band? I love that Richie also is low-key great stick man and has to answer the phone post or during sex multiple times in this movie. Yeah, he's got a little sly smile to him. Yeah. I think the cop is probably, you know, I think that's probably like... More primal? Yeah. because the cop is authoritative and he's working for overtime.

54:43Yeah, the cop doesn't care about your rights. The cop is imposing himself. Meanwhile, the lawyer is probably, you know, caring about your civil rights and asking you questions. There's a lot of caveats, a lot of precedents. A lot of procedures. Nah, the cop just comes out and plants the dick right on you. It's probably what she wanted, right? KD Strickland. Never got close. Never quite made it, but got really close. Got close, man. I loved her. Practice this. She did a Tyler Perry movie. I always thought, I always thought. Got close, man. Did a Tyler Perry movie? I think it's called, I think she was in a movie called The Family That Preys.

55:18Okay. Which is the best Tyler Perry movie. She was in it. Like, she got, she almost, she almost got there.

55:24Bill Simmons:Next scene, CR's favorite, Frank kills Tango. Yeah. The sugar jar. Fuck you gonna do, Frank? It's great. Fuck you gonna do, Frank? You gonna shoot me? That's the scene in this movie that lives on. Every great gangster movie has to have a scene, just one scene that lives on throughout the movie. At least one. I was gonna do this for Apex Mountain, but we could do it here. better Idris Elba on screen death. This is Stringer with Omar and Brother Mazzone. It's Stringer. It's Stringer. It's Stringer, but I will say Denzel pulling the gun and putting it to his head, the facial expression he makes is the hardest thing I've ever seen in my life.

56:13Bill Simmons:Craig, you hadn't seen this movie before, right? No. What was your reaction to that moment? They never do this. I can't think of another movie where the guy who's like, what are you gonna do shoot me in the street and he actually shoots him it never happens it's amazing yeah it's great yeah string string still gets me though yeah when i do a while rewatch string just kind of get on with it yeah like omar tells him and he's like you know what if that's where i'm at just take me out you know what i'll say though is is frank doesn't even get the satisfaction of letting idris elba's character know that he did it you know what i mean like i would almost shoot him in the leg first and then like the heart so he can think about it as he died.

56:51You're a fucking insane person. When you shoot him in the head, he doesn't even know he died. I knew it was something behind those eyes, man. Like, listen to him. The Bay Area.

56:58Bill Simmons:Dark Bay Area. He's like, what are you going to do, shoot me? He technically doesn't even know he got shot. You know what I mean? Are we positive Frank was going to shoot him before he said that? Do you know what I wonder? I don't think he expected him to actually give him the money. I think he was like, look at this motherfucker. I wonder if Frank would have shot him if his family wouldn't have been there. Because it was to show them. I think he was making a fucking statement me to these people. Because they had just gotten to New York. Yeah. And so he goes out there. I know Frank was about his shit, but he goes out.

57:27He's talking to them. And then he's like, oh, here's an opportunity to show them. Either this guy's going to pay me right now, or he's going to pay the price and just ask for it. Should have shot him in the heart. Yes. You need him to suffer. Craig wants more suffering. Craig wants to. You need him to know. Craig is like, I want the man that I killed to look me in my eyes as he dies. You fucking crazy person, man. Yeah.

57:49Bill Simmons:Well, now we know. Right, exactly. A pretty enticing Deanne Waiter's resume from Idris Elba in this movie. Yeah, yeah. A lot of swagger. Richie gets his money back from Trupo. Enjoyed that. So this might be my number one. Oh, that's Trupo. That's never come here unannounced. Yeah. This might be my number one. Frank freaks out at his own party. Yes. There's a piano assault. Somebody says, come on, man. That's your cousin. Yeah. Always enjoy that I almost wish they would have delved more Into Frank's discomfort With the trappings Of being a big time drug dealer That's your 10 extra minutes that you could have had From all the stupid court And he's like constantly like take the sunglasses off Don't do this, don't do that And then like when he tries to get into it It blows up in his face It's just really fascinating That's$25 ,000 alpaca You block that shit The most interesting thing about the character Is that he is so loyal to his family.

58:50He brings them up to make them his organization because he feels like they are the only people that he can trust, yet they vex him throughout the entire movie. They're country, they're stupid. Probably not a great professional move. He was so untrustworthy for people that he would have had to go into business with that he had to do this and then at every turn they become his undoing. And that scene is kind of the first thing. It's just, he's so flabbergasted. Beats him up, everybody get out. And I love scenes where people get kicked out of a party. The part when Stevie, played by T.I., is like, I don't want to play baseball anymore, I want to be you.

59:29It's like, it's such a great moment for Denzel because it's like, is he flattered or is he disappointed that this is what it's come to, you know? He brought him up there. To play for the Yankees. To play for the Yankees. Yeah. So that he did not have to be him. Yeah. And everyone is just descending into what Frank is rather than ascending to something better than what he could be.

59:51Bill Simmons:Got to be honest, this scene could have been two, three more minutes. The baseball? The party, just the whole party. Yeah. This next one, too, the Ali-Fraser fight with fake Ali and fake Frazier. One of the worst Ali's that I've seen in a film. I had it coming up on what stage is the worst. Yeah. They didn't even try. They didn't even try. They're like, hey, is it a black guy? All right, cool. Just the depiction of, that's the garden, right? Is that supposed to be the garden? Like, you're like, Ridley Scott, man, make a boxing movie. Like, this is incredible. So I wrote down, this could have been three to four more minutes that I would have liked to have seen in a round.

1:00:25Bill Simmons:Yeah. Right. Like, just, it didn't have to be the 15th round, the famous round. Probably in the fourth round, somebody's eating a hot dog. But just to live in that moment, I mean, obviously, it's a formative moment for the lore of Frank Lucas. I mean, that's the one lesson, the enduring lesson in the movie is don't wear the fur. You know what I mean? But that is a really important historical moment. We could have stayed there and hung out with Sammy Davis Jr. Frank Sinatra was there. Everybody was there. Woody Allen and Diane Keaton. Wow. I have that as a nitpick. I don't think they were dating for another six years.

1:01:02Bill Simmons:That's where they needed the ringer consultancy firm. Hey, guys, scrap that. Nobody knew Diane Keaton. Woody Allen was not doing that. And then even Ben and the Godfather. Yeah. Um, Trooper ruins Frank's wedding day. Brolin's just like, I just like Brolin in this. I like the Brolin, just the Brolin cooking. Yeah. Frank sells Cuba Gooding on Blue Magic. What's interesting here is this is just who Cuba Gooding became in every movie or TV show. This character for the next 20 years. Even he played OJ Simpson like this. I have to say, you're talking about the catch me, infringement, insist, that scene?

1:01:38Just like dialing it up Seeming like a little bleary Pretty good I He's good at this movie Love That scene I like You have Idris As Dion Waiters I have him As As Dion Waiters Pretty good drunk acting Because Because You forget Because He's one of these actors That his Public persona Has become bigger Than the work But when you watch that scene Yeah he's great He plays it A ton of charisma I love it He's going up against He's like I've called Red Magic It's not as good of A fucking name him you know what i mean like he's just he's really got that guy nailed in that one scene the plane search is great frank's uh what's uh what's what's uh i'm blanking on russell

1:02:19Bill Simmons:crow's character's name richie richie he's searching the coffins brolin's looking for the dope brolin just kills the dog that that sucks okay that's when you know troupeau needs to die but i love that whole part and then uh we get the final police sting shootout we get naked gunfight we get frank coming out to church 400 cops this amazing grace is playing um there's a crow versus denzel section that's fun you know what normal is to me i ain't seen normal since i was six years old denzel gets a nice speech and then uh troupeau kills himself yes what did i miss um you didn't miss anything this is a very strangely constructed movie because the scenes are very fast there's a lot of them there is a lot of like dense visual information in every one of them.

1:03:06But it's like, this isn't one where I'm like, there are a bunch of scenes I would probably say like, Tango is the most rewatched scene for me. But my favorite scene is the final Richie-Frank interview scene. The back and forth. Yeah. I think the most important scene in the movie is actually Frank bringing his family from North Carolina and the moment that they see everything. Yeah. And walking through Harlem for the first time. Or the big house that they've watched. The big house and his mother and all of that. because that becomes the central struggle of the movie. Like a guy who has all of this trauma, who believes deeply in America, but not in the America that is supposed to work for him and the America that actually does.

1:03:48And that's why everything he does is illicit and he listens to Bumpy and all of that. So that's one scene. But then I just like whenever Denzel and Armand Asante are on screen together. Like those two scenes, your success took a shot at you, like all time great line. Yeah. Who do you have, Craig? anything in Bangkok oh yeah I'm like this I'm learning about you yeah Craig's Dark Side coming out episode four in Bangkok Craig goes dark yeah yeah

1:04:16Bill Simmons:what's the most 2007 thing about this movie normally we have like five six seven choices there's only one answer oh I have one what's yours what's yours oh you go T.I. in common is up and coming young actors in this movie done that's fine young T.I. that's not what I had I mean the movie has T.I. Anthony Hamilton and Common in it like the rappers that's a good runner up choice what's yours? they invited Jay-Z to a screening and he was so impressed he made an album called American Gangster that's the most 2007 thing ever hey that's a very important moment in hip hop well because it was a little comeback album for him well he had a comeback with I think Kingdom Come he had done Blueprint already yeah well he had no he had done the blueprint but what i mean is jay-z had retired yes and then he had come back with uh an album that was very controversial some people loved it some people hated its its age really well but then american gangster is a theme album and that's kind of like hove is still hove very important in his career to me we'll take uh one more break and then we'll do what's age the best what's age the best what do you got cia a couple things number one it was nominated but the art direction and the production design arthur max who does all of ridley scott's stuff there are shots in the montage of people od 'ing on blue magic where you see like a bathroom or a bedroom or you know even on street corner and you're like holy shit like there's more depth to this like set dressing and like what like props are in this shot than there are in some like entire films or TV series.

1:05:55So it's just always so layered and interesting to look at this movie. I also really think that there's some good thematic coherence in Zalien's script where it's like, for instance, Bumpy talking about the department store ruining the corner store. And how it's like, well, these guys just buy straight from the manufacturer. And what does Frank do? Buy straight from the manufacturer. Like he takes different lessons. Like a lot of the capitalism stuff, it might be a little on the nose. But I think the script does a really good job and the movie does a really good job of being like, this is more about capitalism than it is about crime.

1:06:30You know? And I also just really enjoy watching topless women pack drugs. Always. Always works.

1:06:36Bill Simmons:So I had that as well as what stage the best. I don't think it's ever not worked in a movie. Why do they do that? Yeah, it's because they can't steal anything. Yeah. It is. That's why. Couldn't they wear like what the actresses wear the tape over their nipples? They could be like somewhat discreet. Also, you need them to commit. you need them to say hey if you want to handle the dope you gotta come in here naked you need to buy in I'm pretty sure it's an HR violation but I'm not positive yeah yeah you have to be completely naked do you think Red Top was doing HR as well as floor manager? I don't think I don't know if he had HR I had uh do you have any in what's age the best?

1:07:11I do this movie to me is the beginning of the Denzel era we're in now this is where it starts like there's the Denzel on his climb and then there's Denzel in his solidifying stage. And then this movie begins kind of the era of Denzel as an entity. Denzel Incorporated. Yeah, as much as an actor. Because after this, he just starts, he no longer does any movie that he feels like. He just does stuff that is cool to him. And that's kind of the, it kind of starts with this movie. Unstoppable, being on a train. Yeah. Yeah, and then when he decides, in the spot that he's in now, when he decides that he goes, okay, well, I feel like the art is not being elevated.

1:07:54I'll do Fences. I'll do some Shakespeare stuff. I'll elevate the art through movies that I'm actually in.

1:08:00Bill Simmons:I like it. I had what's age the best. Anytime a movie has a character named Bumpy, I'm probably feeling good about where we're going. If the first person we're hearing from is named Bumpy, I'm probably going to see this movie nine times. Clarice Williams, yeah. I was trying to think of what athlete could change their name to Bumpy. Like, could this save Kyle Pitts? Laurie Markkinen? I'm not Kyle Pitts anymore. I'm Bumpy Pitts. Bumpy Pitts is a hard-ass name. Bumpy Pitts, like, shit. I think Bumpy Pitts is coming back this year. Bumpy Markkinen? And it was just like, oh, you don't want to test him.

1:08:33Bumpy Markkinen. Bumpy Markkinen. Bumpy Markkinen is good, too. Sam Hauser becomes Bumpy Hauser? Oh, shit. What about Bumpy Wembanyama? That's kind of like where it maybe goes the other way. Yeah. It's not as... No, it's got to be a cook one. How many... Bumpy's been portrayed on film a lot. Bumpy seemed great Gave away turkeys I think Now he's Forrest Whitaker right? Forrest Whitaker, Lawrence Fishburne Lawrence Fishburne twice maybe Because I think maybe he did it in a cotton club too Oh

1:09:02Bill Simmons:Bumpy had some big picture thoughts about life And you also couldn't fuck with him I had Vietnam's whole They had that news story about Vietnam And all the heroin opium addiction With the soldiers and I was like I could spend another like 8 minutes on this I'm really interested in this. Yes, me too. Has that been in a movie in the right way? Because I was racking my brain. So there's an amazing novel called Dog Soldiers by Robert Stone that got made into Who'll Stop the Rain, the Nick Nolte movie. Right. And that's about bringing drugs back from Vietnam. There's a lot of writing about it. There hasn't been as many films.

1:09:44Bill Simmons:Van, 360 scenes filmed in 180 locations. crazy. That is just the one stage the best for holy fucking shit. We talked about him earlier. Any movie with Ted Levine. I just like seeing him. Yep. That's awesome. Oh, I have one. Is she a big fat lady?

1:10:09Brolin's face when he gets his car blown up. Yeah. The car itself. The car? What kind of car is that? It's a Shelby. like those cars came back like John Wick brought those cars back like yeah the car itself beautiful fucking car and then I love the exchange between uh Truppo and Frank when he's just like how about I like throw you and your brother in the fucking river he's like how about next time I blow up your fucking house right yeah Frank got some balls on him they didn't call Frank with a couple kilos of raw yeah in the fucking trunk and Frank still like the cop is a full on criminal just doing criminal talk so there's

1:10:47Bill Simmons:There's a little thing in here. When Frank starts pouring a lot of sugar in his coffee, that means his bodyguard has to be officially monitoring the situation. I'm going to start doing that. Who's your bodyguard? Just for all podcasts. It just means that that's when Kyle has to come over. If the podcast is going a certain way and all of a sudden I'm just pouring sugar, Craig's like, oh shit, something's going wrong with Bill. I don't know. So you're the bodyguard. Not the bodyguard. Actually, to be honest with you, now I feel like you can fucking do it. I'm going right for the heart. We're going right for the heart.

1:11:15You're going to know that Horebac killed you. Bangkok Craig Horebac.

1:11:22Bill Simmons:Naked Ladies Cutting Cocaine. John Ortiz in the span of two and a half years. Miami Vice, American Gangster, Fast and Furious, and Public Enemies. God bless that fucking dude. I love him. I have a quick tau of American Gangster I wanted to put as what stage is the best. These five quotes. Oh, okay. you can be successful and have enemies or you can be unsuccessful and have friends I just think great yearbook quote put that through I'm going to tell Ben when it's senior year have him throw that in there the loudest one in the room is the weakest one in the room not untrue doesn't work for podcasting but yeah or maybe it does it works for ESPN Jesus was that a shots fired It's not what works in ESPN It was the shots fired But hey Get your shit off I'm fucking with it You are what you are What you are in this world That's either one of two things Either you're somebody Or you ain't nobody Yeah The number one fear of people Isn't dying It's public speaking That's in there And then quitting while you're ahead Is not the same as quitting Yes What a great quote You know what I think this This is how you know I was never cut out for the street.

1:12:44Because I think you up 60, they seize$250 million. But do you feel that way in Vegas? I don't gamble, though. Okay. So I'm saying is like, that's probably the reason why. I'm like, hey, if I'm Frank, I'm like, hey, bro, you up$100 million, man. Wash that. 75, you got it after you washed it, right? Take that, put it in the S &P 500. You're good, it's over. But they can't stop because it's never actually about the money.

1:13:12Bill Simmons:It was like Craig and the Dannys in New Orleans. Yeah. The craps table. You quit where you're at. Yeah, you could have paid for your night, but nope. Boy. I'm there playing blackjack with people vacuuming under my legs. If I could tell the story of all of the Ringer people huddled around, that was an eye-opening scene for me. That was some blue magic right there. That was some blue magic watching everybody that you work with. I'll be honest. I'll just admit this now. It's the 400th episode. I'll never fully forgive Raheem for betting on the don't come line in Craps.

1:13:47Bill Simmons:Maybe like 10 years from now, forgive it. I just thought it was completely unacceptable. Eight people he works with and his friends. He's like, I'm going there, I'm zagging. Craps is hunkering down together. Yeah, Craps is all about community and togetherness. Do you remember at Vegas Summer League when we had that weird Caesars suite that you guys filmed at? Weird, it was extravagant. I don't know if you were working with us yet. No, he was not. It was 2018. I was sitting in this suite, and it was him, House, and Chang. And House and Chang, I think, had been up all night and then gotten off-strip gumbo somewhere.

1:14:26Yeah. And then come back to the hotel room to talk about the previous evening's gambling.

1:14:33Bill Simmons:We did basically a morning show, morning post-game wrap-up show. winning a bone white chip that he needed to have like his social security number to cash out or something like that and these guys like betting not just the table but like different people at the table like they're betting against like how how deep did it go like the layers of how we were basically in bangkok even though it was las vegas and i was sitting there watching and i'm like this is probably what it was like to watch like miles davis and john coltrane on stage together except up for being a degenerate not playing jazz i loved it i remember i'm we're in new orleans and it's super bowl and like people are walking by and they're going yo is that bill simmons right there yeah bill is locked why is he yelling at raheem like bill is locked in like super locked in and then craig because craig you went on a little run that night yeah you did yeah i kept the night alive the dannys were hugging like they won the Game 7 of the World Series.

1:15:33It was the most community I felt maybe at the Ringer everybody was together. It was fantastic. Can I throw one more what's age the best out there? So are you saying we should do a Vegas Ringer trip? I think we definitely should. Yeah, we should do it. All right. Right after Trupo and Richie meet for the first time when he's like, don't ever come here unannounced. One of Trupo's guys goes, let's go hit some balls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I got pizza. I didn't remember that. Go Jay. He's like, I got a tea time. The guy's getting in the car behind the troupe. But it's like, is he driving to death course?

1:16:10Where is he going? And in one of those guys, Eugene from The Sopranos, right?

1:16:15Bill Simmons:Yeah. Hey, here's a category we don't get to give out that often. The Sean Fantasy word, sadly not here, for stealth homage that gives every movie nerd a criteria orgasm. So the very last scene is an homage to the very first thriller when the robber looked at the audience and pointed a gunfire and the screen went blank. The Great Train Robbery in 1903. Sean would have called that. Joe Pesci. Straight to this camera. Big Kuna Burger where best use of food or drink. I think it's pouring all the sugar in the coffee, right? It's definitely the sugar jar. Yucca. What do you have for Great Chuck Gordo?

1:16:51There is a shot when Frank brings his brothers to the apartment building where Red Top has all the ladies for the first time and as they're walking up the stairs it cuts into the apartment and there's a shot of a naked lady wearing a shower cap with her feet up on the table reading a magazine that says like it's like for Jamaican rum it's an ad and she's smoking and the news is on TV and if you put that picture if you freeze that and put it would be like Life Magazine it is unreal how deep like every prop makes sense and it's just this awesome like language shot in the middle of this like crime thriller I love that shot also the um the slow kind of reveal of richie standing in front of frank at church

1:17:38Bill Simmons:yeah it's good kid cutty pursuit of happiness where best needle drop um that 110th street song is good in this but the amazing grace for the mass arrest is pretty good too i don't know what we do we'd have at the end the public enemy when frank like that's my favorite public enemy record can't trust it when frank like leaves and he's back out on the street now and he's like a man without a country and everything's kind of changed, but everything kind of is the same. That's mine. Do you think they should, because American Gangster came out after this movie, do you think they should retroactively go back and cut like two of the songs into this movie since he basically was inspired by the movie?

1:18:14Bill Simmons:What are you talking about? Oh, you're talking about Jay-Z? Oh, and put the, like, uh. Almost like a director's cut re-edit or no? Like with that music in it? I think it takes you out of the time period though. Probably so, yeah. You want to stay in it. The Chess Rockwell Brock Landers Award for Best Character Name is obviously Ice Pick Paul. Yeah. I had Moses Jones Riz's character, but... I also like any time there's a character named Bruiser. Bruiser. I love a character named Bruiser. How about Bangkok Craig? Bangkok Craig. Shoot him in the hard horn. Shoot him in the hard horn. Bangkok Craig was buried.

1:18:45Heartshot Horlbeck. Heartshot Horlbeck.

1:18:49Bill Simmons:CR, you have a flex category. Sick bastard. I brought two with me today. Sean Prenn. The Sean Prenn I Brought My Own Pack Award for Excellence in Onscreen Smoking. John Hawks is smoking all the time. It's just cameras happen to be on. And he is getting really, really down to the filter. Like that's when you know it's real is when guys are down around the stub because that's where they keep the good stuff. Good one. Ed Norton, reverse dunk award, did this movie need a random sports scene. A little bit of a variation on this. Are you telling me Harry Dean Stanton couldn't play Billy Martin and come watch Stevie Lucas pitch a little bit?

1:19:26It's sitting right there. He's in perfect age. That was my flex. I wanted to see that scene. I wanted to see T.I. Rip it at 95 miles an hour. He obviously, I don't think he could because right when he's like, I'm about to throw it, they would cut away.

1:19:41Bill Simmons:Out of that, I would have wanted an Ollie Frazier round. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is kind of wild, though, also, that we don't get any pickup poops. We can't go to the golf course with the cops. Everybody talks about sports, but there's no sports in the movie. butch's girlfriend word for weak link of the film we mentioned earlier but all the accuracy issues it feels like lucas was fabricated he wasn't nearly like as sophisticated as they make him in this movie and it wasn't uh it just wasn't like this everyone's like he wasn't like this and then richie um never had a child they just made up basically this whole character story with because it's based on a true story.

1:20:24Yes. This is pretty much right around when people, I mean, I think people -

1:20:31Bill Simmons:It says the internet. People started getting offended by this. You started getting the Slate article where it's like all the inaccuracies in this movie and it starts to kind of, it kind of got to you a little bit, you know? Yeah. A federal judge who assisted in the arrest and trial of Lucas, Sterling Johnson Jr., he said the film was 1 % reality and 99 % Hollywood. there's a whole bunch of other stuff about him being the him rising above the mafia and being the mastermind of the golden triangle that he, Frank Lucas' biographer is like, not true didn't happen but hey, I enjoyed the movie yeah, like a lot of people say the cadaver connection never actually even existed what's aged the worst, we mentioned fake Ali and fake Frasier, we didn't mention fake Will Chamberlain I mean, Ridley Scott just give a shit if these guys left even 10%.

1:21:27Bill Simmons:Like three of the most famous athletes of the 70s. Oh my God. 0 for 3. Like just go and get like Greg Oden to be Will Chamberlain. They did that in the movie Rebound. Remember they had Will Chamberlain in the movie he was played by Kevin Garnett? They're like, oh, okay. It's Kevin Garnett. Right. In Rebound, they're playing at the Rooker, yeah. Joe Mooney's mustache in this movie, I don't know what the fuck is going on. They were trying to make him a dandy. He was a dandy. Joe Morton? Joe Morton, yeah. Joe Morton. Joe Morton. Yeah. Why'd I call him Joe Mooney? Who's Joe Mooney? I don't know. Joe Morton, our guy from Terminator 2.

1:22:00Paul Mooney? Yeah, yeah, he was a Paul Mooney.

1:22:01Bill Simmons:But you know, Joe, everybody knows Joe Morton. Yeah, yeah. And it's always nice to see him in movies. And I think he's like, unhistoric, like, that's a real character. He was like a gambler. But that and other mustache, just like, I would have gone back to the, you have this intricate, early 70s Harlem set designs. You're getting every detail right. Yeah. And you're like, hey, just throw that mustache on Joe. Well, we gotta find out, because I don't know the guy he's portraying. Charlie Williams. What's his name? I think it's Charlie Williams. Maybe Charlie Williams really had that mustache. Yeah, I think he was probably like...

1:22:29Bill Simmons:Ben, you're not gonna like my next What's the Age of Worse. Let's hear it. Armand Asante is a mafia boss. He's fucking French. What are we doing? There's so many Italian actors. Fuck you. How about that, Ridley Scott, you dick? All right. Remember, you know when people get bent out of shape when somebody doesn't play a character? Yes. This is more offensive than anything He's a fucking French guy The Italians hate the French You've never seen Gotti? HBO original movie Gotti? He's French He's fucking awesome in that What's up with you and HBO movies now? Oh my god The HBO original movie man I want to do a whole rewatchable situation Of HBO movies?

1:23:07I love them Gotti is one I forgot when I made my list What was I watching the other time? Like a couple weeks ago Oh the one about Too Big to Fail Too big to fail Yeah While Briggs at the gate And the Blamp played on Rebound Rat Pack All of that He played Gotti In one of the movies

1:23:23Bill Simmons:By the way I just looked this up And it says He's of Italian and Irish descent So he's you He's you Bill hates himself My bad I thought he was French I wanted to make sure I do like that I could have Googled that before I do like the Basically like what about your fellow dairy farmers scene? That conversation between the two of them? Yeah. And it's just like about price fixing and stuff? I have a better idea for that actor when we get to a later category. What do you think of the central romance of this film? Of Frank's relationship? It's alright. Craig, you want to go ahead and get to it now?

1:24:08Hmm. We watched part of this movie in the Spotify screening room yesterday and Craig had some, because, you know. Some thoughts on Frank's wife? On Frank's wife. I thought she was a great actress. Lovely woman. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Seems like a great hang. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it was a good character? And a thoughtful, deep human relationship? You know what I didn't really get? What I wanted that we didn't get is we didn't really get the crash out. You know, like, the Ray Liotta with, I'm blanking from Goodman. Yeah, there's no to flush the coke down the toilet scene with Frank. There's no Karen scene.

1:24:50You have the option to have the down with her. But I gotta say, we watched that movie in the Spotify theater with like seven people. Every single one of them was like, she's got it. Yeah, she's got it. And we looked up her IMDB. Craig doesn't want to cop to what it was that he said yesterday. And that's cool, Craig. Craig didn't look it up. What did I say? Craig didn't look it up. Bangkok Craig. Bangkok Craig looked it up. So shoot him in a hard horobank.

1:25:14Bill Simmons:Hard shot horobank. I have another one, Sage the Worst. I don't think this movie had the right title. Which one do you like? So they called it True Blue, which I don't like either. Why is this movie called Blue Magic? The whole movie is about blue magic. Great name for a title. It doesn't sound like a gangster movie. It doesn't sound like a gangster movie. Blue Magic? No. Not really. It doesn't sound like a gangster movie. American Gangster feels like AI just spatted out. I think it's just kind of like with Ridley. It's like, what is this movie about? It's about gladiators. Then we'll call it Gladiator.

1:25:48Is it a movie about American gangsters? Then let's call it American Gangster. Movie about common. Is Matt Damon on Mars? It's called The Martian. Yeah.

1:25:55Bill Simmons:So this is a Ridley Scott thing. The Duelist or two guys dueling? Two guys dueling. Thumb and Louise. What's Alien about? An alien. He doesn't fucking... He doesn't hide the movie in the title. I think they bring like 12 titles. Like, fuck it. Just call it Alien. Yeah. It's not like Bonaparte. It's not Waterloo. It's Napoleon. Blade Runner is a good title. Blade Runner is also not, you know, like that's also William, you know, like Philip K. Dick. Like it's in there, you know. Any other what's age the worst for you guys? So, you know, there's a couple of things. Obviously, they come in with a no knock warrant that age the worst.

1:26:30But there's a scene.

1:26:34That's a terrible thing. but there's a scene in the movie that it's just it's not great there's a scene in the movie you know at the end where uh they're they're executing the search on the plane yeah and uh Rich Roberts wants to go through and look at all the coffins and they don't want him to they get Roger Bart the US attorney the US attorney comes in and they have to make sure that they make the US attorney the bad guy in this scene the most fucking racist guy the most racist guy you can And so he goes for a double that you don't ever really see. He drops an N word later. And then a K word.

1:27:10And you can't do that. He drops even me. I was like, oh, that's a little saucy right there. He comes in way too hot. It's also tough because Roger Bart is a wonderful actor and Broadway stage guy, but his job in American Gangster is to be the most racist person in New York City in the 1970s. That's incredibly difficult.

1:27:36his racist PR

1:27:38Bill Simmons:was like Jokic in the 23 playoffs they don't even really explain who he is he's just like stop what you're doing N and K and he goes I'm like okay then he goes I'm like whoa whoa chill man it's wrong the Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge overacting words sadly I think I have to give this to our girl Carla you're going to the same hell is the crooked cop you can't stand. Oh my God. This is Denzel. It's Denzel Washington. He tried to kill my wife. Yeah, it's Denzel. I didn't I wasn't going to give anything like this to Denzel. Denzel is going so hard in this movie at certain times. He is getting it all out in this film.

1:28:26Slapping people around, knocking shit over. We didn't give this to Denzel. I mean, we were also going to probably give him the movie, so it's okay.

1:28:33Bill Simmons:Yeah, that's fine. Ben, you have a flex. You already did it. I already did it, yeah. All right, let's do the CR. Think Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford. Hottest Take Award. What do you got, CR? Josh Brolin has had the best post-American gangster career of anyone an American gangster. That's true. Oh. Denzel Washington's highlights after this are Unstoppable Flight, Tragedy of Macbeth and Gladiator 2. I'm not saying he doesn't have good movies other than those. I'm just saying those generally are like, people are like, damn, that was really... a great Denzel performance. Crow, it's almost negligible.

1:29:03It's this body of lies and the nice guys. Josh Brolin did W, Milk, True Grit, Inherent Vice, Sicario, Hail Caesar, Dune 1 and 2. It's not even close. And is in Weapons. He clearly just catapults out of this movie. I think just got better material. Obviously, he's doing different kinds of roles. He's doing supporting roles. But it's kind of wild. He also was still... It's a good take. Yeah, perfect. He also was still ascending. Yeah. So he could be a little bit more like... What do you have? Ridley Scott ruined what could have been a classic, overwhelmingly classic movie.

1:29:41Bill Simmons:This ties into my take. I think you're right. I think he might have been the wrong director. I think some of the other directors that were thrown around for this movie would have made this into not a great rewatchable movie that we love because this movie serves you so well when you're watching it at home. because there's so much in it. But I think the story, the Godfather-esque crime epic, like timeless story, I think it's in there, but I don't think really Scott was the right guy to do it. Who do you think was of the directors that were up for it? I'm interested in Fuqua's version. But if you're looking at like, maybe even Fincher, maybe Fincher takes this movie too seriously, but he takes it so seriously that you get somebody who focuses on one of the ideas that could have made it a more focused.

1:30:27I would do Fincher for the Bangkok Golden Triangle story. Yeah. I would do De Palma for the New York City crime story. You feel like De Palma had lost it by this point, though? Well, I don't know. I mean, Carlitos is why I still work at The Ringer, is to do Carlitos Way one day. It's like, I'm just... Jesus. No, I'm just waiting. Not to work with Bangkok Craig? No, it's to do Sean Penn's hair in Carlitos Way. Yeah, and then Fuqua.

1:30:56Bill Simmons:Fuqua, like... Can we lead this into my hottest take? Please. This would have been Michael Mann's second greatest movie behind Heat. I just think he crushes this movie. It's all the stuff he likes. It's weird characters and people just coming in and out in all these different locations. The Golden Triangle, which he did in season one, Miami Vice. He never worked with Denzel. He did work with Russell Crowe. A lot of the people that were in his movies anyway are in this movie. Some of the ideas in the film are ideas that are really interesting. It goes backwards. He loves going backwards. The Ali Frazier fight, he absolutely would have fucking filmed at least a round of that.

1:31:34Bill Simmons:For sure. I just think he would have crushed this movie. What's Michael Mann's best period piece? Public Enemies. Public Enemies. Or Last of the Mohicans. I think Last of the Mohicans. Oh, Last of the Mohicans is fucking fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Public Enemies. Sierra and I. You guys are in on Public Enemies? There's been some text. Yeah. There's been some revival. We're interested in a revival. When was the last time you watched it? when I saw it in the theaters. Eh, it's on this, it'll be in the 400s somewhere. Yeah. It does feel like Last of the Mohegans is the obvious answer now that I think about it, but that feels like even different Michael Mann.

1:32:07But he, that's a fucking amazing movie. Perfect movie. Yeah. Stay alive! I will find you! I will find you!

1:32:14Bill Simmons:Casting what ifs. We did most of them, but this one kind of broke my brain. Somebody turned down the role of Troopo before Broan. Yeah. James Gandolfini oh wow it's tough I love Berlin in this movie yeah man Gandolfini is troupe oh it's pretty good it's pretty good it's right after Soprano and I just think he didn't want to play another bad guy probably but man there was some around the time of the sort of first iteration of this movie conversation about Ray Liotta as Richie yeah I have him in another spot Brad Pitt lingered in this for a second Eddie Murphy was involved at one point as maybe somebody but no best that guy award can we graduate John Ortiz to the John Ortiz award no just John Ortiz is not a guy anymore I'm fine with that yeah okay yeah so who do you have as that guy Roger Guinevere Smith is Nate the Bangkok Nate Roger Bart as the racist U.S.

1:33:25attorney or John Pulido as Rossi although John Pulido

1:33:28Bill Simmons:I'd like to throw in Katie Strickland too because I'm not positive people know who she is Gwynevere Smith is one of the most underrated amazing actors great and so much Spike Lee stuff Dan Winters he has multiple Spike movies I always like seeing him he always has like a hitch to him he's so cool in that scene where he's getting the massage that I want to get I mean they could have remade The Warriors that looked like a good scene I don't know that was nice. They could have remade the Warriors early 2000s just to have him play Cyrus.

1:34:00Bill Simmons:Thought I was going to get more of a reaction. I wanted to let him let him play Cyrus. Yeah, it was. Oh, for me, my bad guys, like, just his whole crew, his whole crew of cops. Those are different. Oh, John Hawks, Abruzzo. Not RZA. Yeah, Yul Vasquez and RZA. DM Waiters Award. It's a long list that includes John Ortiz, Idris Elba, Cuba Gooding Jr., Richie Koster, KD Strickland, Race SDA, or Nate, The Troop's Connection? Can I also throw in Rick Young as Kun Sa, the general? You sure can. Yep. Yep. What's the answer? It's Cuba Gooding Jr. It's Cuba Gooding Jr. It is. It's Cuba Gooding Jr. It's got two scenes.

1:34:46First scene, kind of seemed a little...

1:34:49Bill Simmons:He is. He is. It's like, he can't believe he's not winning this. Yeah. He is. It's got to be, like, that might be the defining portrayal of Nicky Barnes. Cuba's in his own movie, but in a good way. And we just could have easily just made another movie with him at the same time. I'm very curious about that movie. Yeah. Recasting couch director of City. I'll offer you Ray Liotta. Ray Liotta as over the Armando Sante character. Ray Liotta as the mafia boss? Ray Liotta as the mafia boss. I would rather have Ray Liotta Copland Ray Liotta as Truppo or Richie Can I offer you Eva Mendez as Frank's wife?

1:35:27You may You definitely can, for sure Thank you Jerry Jones I will take that deal Craig, you have a flex category I always hate it when you guys kind of already get to mine, unfortunately I did have Armand Asante as the Judd Nelson I don't care if he's Italian I don't care if he's like lucky Luciano's son in real life. He's like a human cannoli in this movie. He was way over the top.

1:35:54Bill Simmons:I thought he sucked too. I didn't think he was good in this. The only other thing I had was Katie Strickland, who's killing it, but kind of the George Ellerbee two weeks of pay award character who should have definitely been fired. As Richie's divorce attorney, I mean, she doesn't say a word in court. She gets dressed down by Carla Gugino. She has sex with a client and he does not have any shot of winning custody. Kind of just all time bad divorce attorney. And finds out that he has sex with strippers. And she's just more turned on by him. Richie is really putting in work, man. That's one thing.

1:36:26He's a stick man.

1:36:28Bill Simmons:Half-assern research. They had to pay back$3 million, Brian Grazer and Ridley Scott, because they ran so far over budget. Rarely happens.

1:36:42Bill Simmons:The BET TV series, American Gangster with Ving Rhames. a lawsuit or something, right? It existed before this movie. Russell Crowe gave RZA a mint condition 1961 Gretsch guitar. Yeah. Because he really liked them. They've been friends since. They hang out. So Frank Lucas' driver in real life, Melvin Combs, father of Puff. Puffy Combs. Interesting. shot to death at age 33 when Puffy was two years old and then the location stuff was really hard trying to find parts of New York that they could turn into they basically went into the 110s in that range I would be really curious to know whether they could shoot this today in Harlem?

1:37:37and have it not cost a billion dollars I think they're CGI-ing it's so interesting is like when you read about like tarantino making once upon a time in hollywood and him like how he was able to set dress hollywood boulevard or sunset boulevard or something and still would be like this frame is still what it would have looked like in the late 60s you know and new york i feel like in 2007 or whatever when they made this you could still get some 1970s new york and like in shots but now i wonder whether or not there's just too many corporate joy birds you said Frank Lucas' driver is Diddy's father?

1:38:19In real life Wow Did you come across the bit that Coppola reportedly considered making a Frank Lucas or Frank Lucas type character a big part of Godfather 3? Yeah It's pretty fascinating I had that in here somewhere in my weird notes International Immobiliari? No, I think it was like, I think as they were like, what would we make Godfather Part 3 about?

1:38:47Bill Simmons:International Immobiliari! International Immobiliari!

1:38:54Bill Simmons:Apex Mountain. Denzel, no. Russell Crowe, no. Disjointed gangster movies, I'm going to say yes. Dope, big, sprawling... What's it up against?

1:39:09I don't know.

1:39:13Bill Simmons:Not that many of these It's so high up the apex that you can't see anything else Once Upon a Time in America? Yeah, sure Are you also considering I don't know Triple Nine? How low down are we going for disjointed gangster movies? Is a Bronx Tale a disjointed gangster movie? Carlito's Way? Not disjointed I didn't put a lot of thought into that one Ridley Scott no John Ortiz one of my favorite performances yeah it's like he's just coming off my advice Hawks not yet coming Harlem movies not to me what do you have so I mean Harlem Nights Harlem Nights one of my Harlem Nights is not a great movie it's just just be careful it's got great people in it just be careful you're coming off a little bit like a US attorney right now come on yeah Eddie Murphy never directed again after that movie I mean the reality is that you're the inroads that you've made after the Sinners pod like we can't even really talk about like what you did but you could give it all back right now you don't want to do that right I didn't say it was an entertaining movie I wouldn't say it was like a It's not a better made movie than this.

1:40:38My favorite movie of all time takes place in Harlem. It's Mo' Better Blues. And so I would say that Mo' Better Blues is better than American Gangsta.

1:40:47Bill Simmons:The golden triangle in a movie or TV show. The answer is the two-part episode of Miami Vice with Edward James Olmos being reunited with his wife.

1:41:00Bill Simmons:One of my favorite. Do you remember that? Of course I do. Yeah. they're at an outdoor bar Tubbs and Castillo played by Edward James Olmos and he talks to Ty and the waiter and Tubbs goes Captain I didn't know you spoke Ty Castillo's like the least fun friendly guy ever you've given all of the sinners goodwill back with Golden Triangle? yeah with that did you do Tubbs or Crocs? I did Tubbs so you're back at zero that's how Tubbs talked He was fat a lot of energy. Is it?

1:41:37Bill Simmons:Watch the scene. I bet I nailed it. Okay, I will. Captain, I didn't know you spoke Thai. Man, you did it again. Yeah. Watch it. It's a social media clip. I nailed it. Josh Berlin? No. Fuck no. No way. Although 2007 is... 2007. Perhaps he's Apex Mountain. Yeah. He's no country in this. The lady who played Denzel's wife? I'm going to say yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely hers. Yeah. You think this is No it's not Horrible impersonations Of Ali Frazier Will Chamberlain Yeah 1960s and 70s athletes Being terribly portrayed Alright Cruiser Hanks Hold on I got another Apex I gotta ask you guys What is it?

1:42:17Dope Kingpin biopics When I looked at it It's not as many as you think Yeah It's really like Blow Right Tony Montana That he wasn't real Oh So like Blow Paid in full and then this are the three that stand out I looked around for other ones like actually like drug kingpin biopics so much of it is TV now so yeah the guy actually existed that would have been a good hottest take

1:42:43Bill Simmons:we needed more drug kingpins to make biopics of there were so many of them we were too late and like a lot of the guys they show up in this movie and we've talked about them we've talked about Nikki Barnes we've talked about all of these other people they pop up in different things but they're kind of hard to make they all end up the same way the guy fucking goes to jail. They all end up in the same fucking way. Captain, I didn't know you spoke tie. There you go. So you wanted, man? Is that sanitizing? Hey, Captain, I didn't know you spoke tie. Captain, did you speak tie? Cruz or Hanks? I have Cruz as Richie.

1:43:20Bill Simmons:Really? I thought this was such an obvious Hanks part. As Richie? I think Cruz would be like, I am trying to get through night school. And he would go to night school in real life to try it. You know, like, and I could see him being like, I'm a fake nervous about public speaking. And then at the end gives like his great summation. I wish we had a little bit more in court stuff with Richie. It was pretty cool. No? I don't see. I don't see Cruz as a 1971 New York detective. I don't know. I just would feel like it was Tom Cruise the whole time. Yeah. Like he was playing house. What are you? You're the tiebreaker, man.

1:43:55Bill Simmons:I had Cruz as Frank. I want to see it. I want to see Cruz That's Alpaca! I want to see Cruz I want to see Cruz play Frank and I don't want to I just want him to make the movie and not even address it You know that Frank Lewis Whatever. So who's winning here? Hanks? It's fucking Hanks as Richie we're talking about. Did you pick Hanks? Hanks as Richie, yeah. Okay. So Hanks I have Hanks as Richie as well. Scorsese or Spielberg Scorsese? Scorsese, yeah. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Troopo? I think Troopo Yeah Yeah Although, you know what? Philip Seymour Hoffman as Richie is an interesting That's actually really interesting Pretty interesting The stickman part would have been tough Kind of I would have paid to see it You know?

1:44:46Philip Seymour Hoffman Having sex like a cop I would have paid to see it He got down in Was it When the devil knows you're dead?

1:44:52Bill Simmons:Oh, he got down already He was getting busy Marissa Tomei Another one Jesus Hall of Fame All right, pickin' nits. Frank has this golden triangle connection. Yeah. How does he have any competition in Harlem? What do you mean? He's just got by far the best stuff. He's like in the NBA with a$900 million salary cap and everyone else has a$40 million cap. How does he have anybody coming at his... He should be blowing everyone away. He's getting all of this crazy drugs that's the best drugs that he can sell for. Yeah, but that is what happened. But he shouldn't have any competition. But the competition isn't necessarily in the product.

1:45:28the competition is in the territory. That's what I mean. He should have all the territories. Well, he was selling to the people who would distribute into those territories. He's going to have to go to war. He should be like Vince McMahon. He started wholesaling now. Yeah. Yeah, but that's when the mafia comes in because he goes, I have 110th to like whatever, 150th, river to river. I run Harlem. And then they're like, but we can go to Detroit. I think he could have gone national. It would have been like Vince McMahon in 1982. That's legitimately what Armand Asante's character said. He said, let's start going to California.

1:45:56He didn't want to do it again.

1:45:57Bill Simmons:It should have happened in five seconds. this is what you would have done if you were Frank I would have done the Vince McMahon let's go national, cable's coming no repercussions at all for Frank shooting tango in the middle of the street Harlem had his back he did right by Harlem so Harlem was going to do right by him Woody Allen and Diane Keaton not only were they not dating in 1971 nobody knew who the fuck she was we mentioned that earlier I have one more but what do you have for picking this it kind of goes along with what you're saying is I could stand a couple of more what year is it up on screen or what time of year is it?

1:46:32Yeah, I have no idea what time of year is it. And so sometimes you're like, is this two weeks later or is this seven years later? You know, the time stuff gets a little bit murky in this. My name is like, mama, you know I'm selling dope. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's... Yeah, mom knows. Mama, you know I'm selling dope. Great scene. Great scene. Disconnected from the reality of the movie. You know I'm selling dope. You know what's going on. But it is cool. And she's like, everybody knows you don't shoot cops. Yeah. All right.

1:47:02Bill Simmons:My last one is a big one. So we do these based on a true story things, which basically means this was a guy who existed. Now we're just going to make up shit. And then they go to another level in the closing credits where they're like, Frank served 75 years. It's like, no, he didn't. None of this happened. It's all, I just think they should have done, Frank went to prison and became a centaur. Richie Roberts left the forest and coached the Lakers to five NBA titles like just fucking go nuts Trippo came back to life and became a vampire like just keep going Richie Roberts and Princess Di are living in the Cayman Islands under assumed identities just go nuts yeah you've already made up everything have fun with it sequel prequel prestige TV all by caster untouchable should we switch this to prestige based on Van's suggestion all white cast All white cast New category All white cast Ruffalo Adam Scott Adam Scott as Nicky Barnes Adam Scott as Nicky Barnes works That works Rob McElnaney Cruz as Frank Who plays Frank's mom?

1:48:18Sally Field

1:48:18Bill Simmons:Do you realize how funny it would be In the current America or wearing it for somebody. He's like, I'm just doing an all-white American gangster. And J.D. Vance was like, this is great. And J.D. Vance was like, I'm fucking invested in this. I'm telling you, I love this fucking thing. It's the essence of America. This is so cool. Yeah, the story. What we wanted to do was we wanted to take the story and just tweak it a little bit, make it more American. And introducing J.J. Redick. I'm just going all white dudes. I'm trying to make white people.

1:48:51JJ can play Stevie the athlete JJ can play Stevie the athlete and you change it to basketball sure is this movie better with the Knicks

1:48:59Bill Simmons:is this movie better with Wayne Jacobs Danny Trejo Mad Dog Russo I added him Doris Burke just tragically got pulled off off the A-team Sam Jackson Nell Byron Mayo Tony Romo Chris Collinsworth Daniel Plain Vu Long Legs Bangkok Craig or Wilford Brimley in the film. Thank God, Greg. What is it? We got to do one more for DB. Yeah, I figured. We see you, Mr. Lucas, taking the lessons of your mentor, Fumpy Johnson, as you take the ball straight into the heart of Chiang Kai-shek's defeated army and buy opium straight from the manufacturer. Long before there was Magic Johnson, there was blue magic. And you, Mr.

1:49:41Lucas, are the wizard. Au revoir, DB. Oh. I actually, I feel bad, yeah.

1:49:49Bill Simmons:Yeah, I like her. I think you should have said something in Vietnamese at the end there.

1:50:02Just one Oscar. Who gets it? I'm going to, this is not the answer you want. It's either Harris Savides for cinematography or Arthur Max for corrections. But I think they did get Art Direction, right? Or they got nominated.

1:50:14Bill Simmons:I would say Art Direction just because that got nominated. probably unanswerable questions how is Mark Ruffalo not in this movie what was he doing how is he not in this well he's in our all white version but he should have been in there there was 19 parts he could have played for two scenes what year is collateral that's 05 so he could have just gone right this is right in the zone of when he would just pop in this shit I do But like, he could have been nine parts in this. Was this the Denzel performance that created the Jay Pharoah impersonation? Where he just goes over the top as Denzel? Right.

1:50:57Bill Simmons:This is the beginning of Denzel's... My man. Yeah, yeah, it is. Was this the movie or was it like training day plus this? Like, I wonder... I feel like this is the beginning of the... Denzel as a character. Denzel as a character, like I said before. Do you have any other unanswerables? How long would this movie have to be for it to be too long? I mean, I could have got another hour. Yeah. Like if I was like a three night special event, six hours of American gangster, including like an hour in Vietnam and Bangkok, an hour of Rivera's fall from being a cop to a junkie to jumping out of an ambulance.

1:51:35Like a good 45 minutes.

1:51:37Bill Simmons:It's actually way better for prestige. On Stevie Lucas trying to make the Yankees. He failed. That right there would be a fucking awesome subplot to investigate. Yeah. That character, like, trying to be like his uncle, blowing it with the Yankees, Billy Martin, all of that stuff. But, like, even Frank's fall, it happens pretty abruptly. Yeah. I would have wanted to, like, dive into it more. My unanswerable question. What's Trupo's home life like? Yeah, what happens to Trupo? Trupo's so one note. He has a housekeeper? Yeah. What golf club are they members of? Yeah, exactly. Where are they going?

1:52:10What are they doing? Did Frank's wife set him up? No. Oh. She might have. She made him wear the jacket. I've always thought this. I don't trust her. Anyway, we can move on. I don't know. I'm not defending her. I don't trust her. Okay. She made him wear the jacket. He goes there. He's wearing the thing. I think another thing that I would like to... I think they got to her. I think the government got to her. That's pretty interesting

1:52:37Bill Simmons:because there's a couple scenes that are kind of missing. Like, there's that one scene he goes to the bathroom and he's wearing, like, the fake beard that he takes off. Yeah. But we don't know why he has a fake beard on. I think because he's going to look at Tango's, like, operation. Yeah, I feel like there's some choppiness that maybe there was, like, a scene where they... I think Richie got to her. Richie got to the wife. Richie the stick man. What piece of memorabilia... Oh, wait, I have one more unanswerable question just related to the sports stuff, but could you go from, like, the street to the Yankees in 1974?

1:53:13Like, or was he on Keith Law's top 100 list?

1:53:15Bill Simmons:I feel like you could do it in the NBA back then. Okay. Like, the NBA guys would show up. Nobody even knew where they went to college. Okay. Baseball, I don't know. But, because they had the minors, and it was pretty hard for somebody to just show up and make the majors. And get a meeting with Billy Martin? Yeah. So a drug dealer's gonna... Well, Frank Lucas would have arranged that, though. Yeah, but like, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. So a reputed drug dealer is gonna call the New York Yankees organization and say, hey, I want a trial for my nephew and then they're going to go like, yeah. Yeah, because they don't want to die.

1:53:44Or he'll give them a million dollars

1:53:46Bill Simmons:and like, or maybe so, maybe so. Piece of memorabilia you'd want or not want from this movie. I'll offer you the piano. Game used, heads slammed into the piano piano. Frank's suitcase was cool. That old school, big brown suitcase. Frank's entire outfit from the Ali fight. The jacket, yeah. Yeah. What else do you have? Trupo's Leather Duster. Very cool. Trupo's Car. We kind of usually don't do cars. What about you? The jacket, the outfit. That's the most iconic piece of memorabilia. At least the hat. If you had the hat, I think that's a move. Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. Quitting While Your Head is not the same as quitting.

1:54:28Bill Simmons:I had the same one. Best Double Feature Choice? French Connection. Oh, you're going drug and drug. It's the prequel. French Connection is they get the Marseille drugs off the streets, but then they go pumped it back into the movie. You wouldn't do Virtuosity so we can get Crow and Denzel 12 years apart? I would do the French Connection. Not a Virtuosity guy, Sierra? I like Virtuosity. We haven't done the French Connection on this pod either. What's the movie where they give Denzel VD? Is that John Lithgow? No, that is Ricochet. That movie's fucking crazy. That's an insane movie. That's like, I can't believe this was in theaters and I saw it.

1:55:06Lithgow sets him up with the lady. That's a crazy movie. That, to me, is a huge rewatchable. Huge. So much ridiculous shit happens to them. John Lithgow gets out of his mind in that movie. Armor and fights the Aryan Brotherhood. Honestly, it's one of those movies that made me suspicious of John Lithgow as a person for a swell, long time after that. I agree with that. Who do you have for who won the movie?

1:55:33Bill Simmons:I have Blow as best double feature choice, by the way. Oh, Blow. Yeah. Who won the movie? Denzel. Denzel Washington. I wanted to say Crow, but it's Denzel. Who do you have, Craig? It's Denzel, I think. Craig, what was your take? Never seen it. Really enjoyed it. Yeah. I didn't have a problem with the length at all. I mean, it's so ambitious and it's so jam-packed, but man, it's moving. Like, there's so much going on. I think it's really smooth, really well-paced. I think it's probably like, I think the reason why it doesn't get to that next level, like it's a perfect rewatchables it's like a pro bowler but not an all pro i just think the character arcs don't officially get there very well put you know pro bowler not at all pro yeah because the just the characters you don't you don't really feel for anybody too too much in this movie i would say um richie or frank you don't quite get there all the way but i thought this was great super fun this is a movie you can jump in at any time it's almost like you don't even know where the movie starts or ends yeah that was like my more recent relationship with that really is typing in American gangster scene in YouTube and then watching it out of order.

1:56:34Yeah. And then you're just like, oh, that was awesome. And every scene that Denzel is in, he's giving something crazy. Yeah. There are not very many scenes where he's in the scene and he's not making some type of grand point about something. I mean, there's that first time Tango goes up to him in the diner, the first scene when he's just like, now you owe me 20%, the jar's empty, and before he gets killed. Denzel like cleaning his hands from his toast with jam you're just like this whole thing he has thought he's like you're gonna kill him one day you know that now I don't know why this movie hasn't persisted though I mean I feel like it has just not like in the heat I think it was like did well on the Netflix run which is now it's coming off Netflix ironically coming off it's just crazy I always forget that Goodfellas made$45 million and this made $230 million.

1:57:32I think things had changed a little bit. People fucking love Denzel Washington. Denzel was like a gigantic star. I don't know if culturally, if people talk about scenes from this movie, moments. It hasn't really lived on in that way compared to a lot of other famous gangster films. I feel like I hear the tango scene referenced a lot. We just started it. Yeah, we did it. We're the trendsetters.

1:57:53Bill Simmons:We got the ball rolling. Now American Gangster's back. My life lesson is shoot the guy in the heart. yeah so he can see your face as he dies you want him to know what you did Bill I didn't know you spoke Thai I didn't know you spoke Thai I didn't know you spoke Thai you were more like I didn't know you spoke Thai jive turkey get back Jack that's kind of how you like that's well I'm just saying you see Tubbs in the middle you know you know what I mean so fuck with it YouTube will back me up yeah I'm sure they will CR happy 400 great to be back Van great to see you as always thanks to Greg and Cajau as well and Eduardo and Eduardo I'm not sure what's happening and Ronic oh and Ronic too got a whole team whole team for the rewatchables that's right and you can check us out on the Ring of Moves YouTube channel as well great to see you guys

1:58:56We'll see you next time.