‘Brokeback Mountain’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

26:08Bill Simmons:He's some good sneering in this. He was speaking to me. Oh, Randy. Oh, bad Randy. That wasn't on my bingo card today. Well, stick with me, Bill. If you've not been paying attention all these years, I mean, it's the Randy Quaid's of the world who are incredibly satisfying because nobody's paying that much attention. I'm going to put that in my notes. The point is Heath Ledger shows up, gets out of the truck, stands against the trailer waiting for it to open because he's not there yet. Or I guess it's locked. Heath Ledger... Gyllenhaal comes in. Quaid's not there yet. And they just stand outside and proceed to raise and lower their heads.

26:54And it's just extraordinary, the choreography here. And what Gyllenhaal knows, because I do believe that at this point, Ennis has not had sex with a man before. Oh, God, no. I think he might not quite even understand that what he might have been feeling for men was sexual attraction, right? Do we think Ennis even graduated ninth grade?

27:22Bill Simmons:No, they're both high school dropouts. Yeah. neither one of them he probably met alma when she was 14 and that's probably the only girlfriend he ever had and i think they're gonna marry alma and i'll do it together you had to put the subtitles on i knew you were gonna bring it of course well he doesn't have that many lines yeah um so they're just lowering and raising their heads as they cruise each other outside this trailer. And Gyllenhaal knows what he's doing. Ledger doesn't understand, well, I'm talking the characters' names. Jack knows what he's doing. Ennis does not. Ennis is experiencing something happening to him that Jack is trying to manufacture, right?

28:11Bill Simmons:It's a little like the before sunrise scene in the listening booth. Oh, interesting. When they're kind of looking at each other, but at different times. but only Jack Twist is looking. Yes. Ennis doesn't know that he's in the game yet. Well, Ennis knows that something is happening, but I don't think he entirely understands what it is because he's feeling something. He is uncomfortable. He's very nervous. He can't wait to eat beans with this guy. Yeah. He's going to have beans for the next four months. He's definitely intrigued. A lot of beans. Nothing more romantic than beans. I love it. Because it's an aphrodisiac.

28:46canned beans not crazy about flatulence to really get the romance spark listen Ang Lee directed this movie he had tried to like get you with the flatulence but we know what is probably happening with these canned beans

28:58Bill Simmons:it's a cat and mouse game from that first scene and it is so patient I think one of the things of this movie compared to what we have to deal with now with most of the terrible movies we have to watch is that people we just have to I have to have dialogue I have to have a loud song here I have to have of transition music for the montage. And this movie's just like, dude, come hang out with us with the mountains for the next half hour. We're going to herd some sheep, eat some beans, we're going to have some stilted conversation, we're going to ride a couple horses. I also think that what was, the thing that's sort of interesting here, and it's easy to miss this stuff because we don't really, like most people, I think, don't really deal with sheep herding, right?

29:43Most people don't have to deal with like, Seems confusing. They're not living a rancher life.

29:48Bill Simmons:Craig harder than running a fantasy team? Sheep herding? It's pretty tough now. It seems really tough. Running like four teams? So, I mean, I've got my little handy notebook here. But like, basically, these two guys are, their jobs are the camp tender and the herder. Yeah. Right? So at night, one of them has to go back down to the sheep so the wolves don't get them. That's basically the assignment here. keep these sheep alive and it means they spend a lot of time apart and one guy stays at camp and sort of maintains an environment there for the other guy to be able to sleep and eat but what is happening what Ang Lee and James Seamus sorry, what Ang Lee and the screenwriters Larry McMurtry and oh man what's her name?

30:41Diana Asana something like that yes they wrote the screenplay they adapted Annie Proulx's story and what they're what you're seeing here along with some very good editing is time sort of shrink with these two guys and the more time they spend with each other the less time they want to spend apart yeah and they switch jobs where one guy becomes the herder and the other guy becomes the tender and it's kind of fascinating because what you see is the rigidity of Ennis sort of begin to relax a little bit as the time passes.

31:24Bill Simmons:And well, we had that one scene, what does he say? Like, Jack says, that's more words than you said in two weeks. He's like, that's more words than I said in a year. Yeah. You're like, oh man, Ennis is opening up. You're getting good at it and it's kind of turning me on. You need to stop. Michael Myers is getting turned on too over there, staring at me. stop it I just like the thing that's beautiful about this movie is also the thing that is strangest about it from the standpoint of how you watch people fall in love with movies at movies and it's all about the passage of time and what they give you is seasons changing environments changing there are a lot of shots of the sheep doing their thing you get a lot of shots of nature a lot of wide shots of the mountain sunsets and sunrises and you are what you're falling in love with is both the environment that clearly is responsible for the closing of the gap between these two men and this environment is bringing them together as much as their innate desire for company for closeness and eventually in the scene that brings them sexually together warmth, right?

32:48Yeah. Because Ennis is sleeping outside the tent and Jack is like, Jesus Christ, will you just get in here? I'm tired of hearing you shivering and your teeth chattering. And Ennis comes in and Jack makes his move.

33:03Bill Simmons:So this movie solidifies Ledger and Gyllenhaal as A-listers, I think, right? Yeah. solidifies Ang Lee, who was already kind of there because he had had the ice storm and a bunch of good ones. Can we talk about, when are we talking about Ang Lee? Because... We can do it right now. He's a two-time Oscar-winning director, which there's only 19 of them. That seems relevant. Yeah. Wedding Banquet, Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Does the Hulk, was there in that weird era where they started trying to get directors like him to do superhero movies and then... Let's talk about the Hulk first.

33:39Bill Simmons:back to broke back after the hulk's a disaster and has broke back and left the hulk i don't i mean the hulk i just want to parenthetically say i think it's like one of the best oh really oh totally of of that ilk of of of motion picture oh definitely the best well he didn't think so he was uh bummed out by it what's how would you describe his style in your opinion with all those different movies that because he's done a bunch of different types of movies right but what's what is what is his like what is his strikeout pitch

34:16perception i think he is waiting to see what happens he often i think knows what he's looking for in a scene i think he really studies the text he knows the text but the things that are variable or what the people do. Um, and he's very, I think he, I think his strength is observation and it's both the observation of what is happening on the page, but also the intangible properties of what happens once what he knows is on the page gets in front of the camera. Yeah. And I think there are so many, he, I mean, I, you know, the other word I would use is, is remote, but that's kind of that sounds pejorative but he's such an observant director and that's a way that people tend to think about him which is he frequently is making movies about worlds he knows nothing about from a life experience standpoint

35:20Bill Simmons:apparently now he's doing a Bruce Lee movie yeah I mean his son is Bruce Lee is what he's developing but he hasn't done a movie in like six years yeah I don't I miss him I would have said the same I would have said perceptive would have been the word I used or patient. Yeah. Yeah. And it's something that I just think there's more and more bad content every year. And of course I watch a lot of it, but, um, people just think with movies, just loaded with dialogue and load music and, but very rarely do you see anybody just kind of bring you into a world and just kind of. Leaving you there. Ease you into it.

35:57Bill Simmons:Take your time. And trusting that you'll stay and you don't mind being there. was like that too where it's like it's just kind of moving you into into a place yes i prefer this movie and in a lot of ways i mean from for all kinds of reasons i think this movie's um i think but that patience is a huge part of it yeah right um his ability to just sort of like trust us to be able to follow the beats of what is happening between these two men if they never had that tent scene right i mean it's a probably a different movie but the filmmaking is so good here he's such a pg-13 version of it well i mean if they're just like if everything if it's 1950 and we're making brokeback mountain right which by the way welcome to bud boddicker and and randolph scott i mean that movie but brokeback mountain happened all the time without the tent scene um but i think that He could have gotten away with just giving you the romance of these two people without the sex.

37:01Well, it's funny that we have more sex scenes with men and women than we do with the two guys. But you, I mean, think about what the one sex scene with Michelle Williams character, Alma. I mean, you know, I mean, in the story, it's such great writing that Annie Proulx is doing, describing what the experience is like from her point of view, which you don't quite get. The movie is very faithful to the story, including its, like, blinks of interiority, which it brings out in dialogue. And, you know, points of view. But yeah, like, most of the sex you're seeing in this movie is officially heterosexual.

37:45But, you know, we understand the psychologies of these people, so we understand what's underneath it too.

37:50Bill Simmons:We're taking a break and then we get to talk about the actors. This episode is brought to you by Sleep Doctor. Let's say a good sleep is wildly underrated. You can do everything right, eat well, work out, sleep seven or eight hours and still feel exhausted. If you snore, wake up tired or crash during the day, it might be worth looking into. Sleep Doctor offers an at-home sleep study done in your own bed. They accept most insurance plans so you can pay as little as$0. Visit sleepdoctor.com. This message is brought to you by Apple Card, shave ice by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive-in.

38:28Bill Simmons:They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now. Use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. terms and more at applecard.com so Ang Lee said he cast these four leads and it's four actors at fascinating points of their career Michelle Williams is basically a TV actress, Dawson's Creek she was in Halloween H20 hadn't really come through with a movie like this, Hathaway was Princess Brides wasn't she making a Princess Bride?

39:12Bill Simmons:Princess Diaries Princess Diaries. Yeah, Princess Diaries. I mean, all these Goldman books are tricking me. But she hadn't been in anything like this and really fought to be in it. Ledger was on the radar with a bunch of stuff. Like he got offered Spider-Man, turned it down. He was in 10 Things I Hate About You. Excellent. He was in The Patriot. He's really good in Monster's Ball, which is - Oh, yes. Monster Ball or Monster's Ball? Monster's Ball. Monster's Ball. Yeah. A movie that will not be on the rewatchables. is one of the most harrowing, disturbing movies. If you did a double feature of that in Million Dollar Baby, I think you would just drive your car off a cliff.

39:50I mean, just think about who's in that movie. Halle Berry, Billy Bob Thornton, Heath Ledger, Puffy.

39:56Bill Simmons:The craziest sex scene I think that's ever been in a mainstream movie where I actually... A hundred percent. I would bet that they were actually fucking in that, right? I mean, I don't know how they weren't. I'm waiting for Halle Berry to call the phone. Where's the bat phone? Where's the cat bone for Halle Berry? But yeah, so Heath Ledger's in that, and he's great. And he's kind of on the radar, but this is the movie that does it for him. And then Jake had been a child actor and, you know, was in a bunch of different... What were his child movies? So he had a... I don't remember. I mean, I remember the first time I saw him.

40:28Bill Simmons:Well, Donnie Darko was the big one, but he was in like City Slickers as a kid and shit like that. Was he? He had a bunch of them. Huh. I did not know that. Donnie Darko. He's in The Good Girl with Jennifer Egan. Dad, I remember. That's the first time I saw him. because I missed Donnie Darko in its original run. So, 05, he has Proof and Jarhead and Brokeback. And Heath Ledger... What a good year for that guy. Heath Ledger has Lords of Dogtown, Brothers Grimm, and Brokeback. Yeah, these guys had... These guys, individually, were having a classic Hollywood year. During an era... For an actor, for an actor.

41:04Bill Simmons:But during an era where 10 years later, you're just putting on a cape. well i mean ledger's agents are like you got to take the spider-man thing or there's not gonna be another one that comes around 100 like you just named six movies between three guys those six like i mean first of all those six movies wouldn't even be happening now yeah lords of dogtown but just pretend that they were like a stars prestige that's a good movie it is a good movie i love lord of dog that movie it's it's a wonderful movie it's so lived in is it who directed that? Stacy Peralta it's just that movie really knows what it is and the people in it know how to be in that movie and I think Heath Ledger knew I want to have like this happens very rarely with actors where they're from early on I want to have my career this way and I want to be in weird movies and I want to work with good directors and I want to challenge myself.

42:07Bill Simmons:And, you know, that's one of the multiple tragedies of losing a dude like that is, I don't know what his career would have looked like over the next, you'd think like he has Brokeback and he has Dark Knight in the span of three years. Like, if you add 15 years to his career, what else is he doing? But the movie that I think is the important one is neither Dark Knight nor Brokeback, which is Casanova. that's oh wow he he hated his own performance in casadova of course he did but like because that's not an actor's performance right yeah that's a movie star performance right that's the performance that a person gives because they want to keep making brokeback mountain and they want to keep doing lords of dog town and that is how you have a healthy movie star career because or a healthy acting career because you're willing and because you can do movie star stuff I think he would have done a lot of I think he would have done a lot of non-star parts and gone back and forth between leading movies but then just being like alright I'll be the Winklevoss twins and social network and I think he's just oh my god wow I think he would have made like three or four movies a year now I'm getting I just couldn't imagine like what the parts would be but when you go that route I'm like oh yeah I think he would have gone all over the place totally could have done Winklevoss yeah I think he would have like he would have been in a Coen Brothers movie he would have been Fincher he just would have like banged out yes whoever the best directors were and I think one of the cool things about this performance he just has a couple of just out of control highest level acting scenes where you're just like wow and I think Gyllenhaal is great in this movie but Ledger like Hathaway said at one point she said I remember getting to watch the shot of Heath walking across the front yard of the parents which is really just dust and dirt more than anything and Heath had decided that at some point Ennis had been in an accident and had a limp.

44:05Bill Simmons:It was so subtle and it looked like he'd had this limp for about four years. And I just remember looking at Heath in that moment and thinking, this is one of the greatest actors that has been. Just because he made weird, out of nowhere choices like that. But the way other actors talked about him, I think that's when you know. You know what I mean? When people are crossing through his vortex and they're like, Jesus Christ, this guy was incredible. Well, just think about... just think about the thing that we're kind of taking for granted so much that we're kind of laughing at, at the blatancy of it, but just to play the part speaking that way.

44:42Right. Um, I remember there being some conversation when either around the time the movie came out about him not seeming masculine enough to people in the movie industry. Oh,

44:56Bill Simmons:that was one of the reasons he didn't get the part right away. They didn't feel like he was. So that was, that was true. remember that's true yeah yeah and i i mean i mean i don't know is that really a requirement for these purposes but sure fine he decides i mean i'm sure that conversation got to him like it reached him in some way he heard that people were saying it so i don't know what his choice was here but i'm also sure he saw silence of the lands and was like there is a world in which people hear this voice that I've come up with, and they're like, Buffalo Bill, you know, kill, kill, kill.

45:32But you know what's crazy, though?

45:34Bill Simmons:Hit that character versus the Joker. You wouldn't know it was the same actor. You wouldn't know. Well, this is the thing. I just don't think you would know. I mean, I... Unless you knew. I don't know who that person is playing this part. I don't know anything about this guy. like he has emptied himself of whatever I mean whatever baggage he had in 2005 coming to a movie which is really none because it had been six years of him basically I don't all I'm seeing is a character at this point I'm not seeing an actor playing anybody yeah I agree and I think that is the thing that in part makes the performance so good you don't know who the person playing the part is It feels like he figures it out even more as it goes along, which might have been the script, but he does some stuff.

46:26Bill Simmons:I think the last half hour of the movie, when he goes, the last time he has the scenes with Jack Twist, when he breaks down, when he goes to see the parents, the phone call he has with Ian Hathaway, all the stuff he's doing in all those scenes, I just think when he finds the shirt in the closet and you hear like the life just sinks out of his body. Like he's just, it's really great stuff. It's like, it's funny because Daniel Day-Lewis said this was like his favorite performance and like he loves this movie. And he loved Heath Ledger in the movie. And it's like, that makes sense to me because it's like when the basketball players vet the other great basketball players.

47:09Bill Simmons:Like this is a movie Daniel Day-Lewis is probably like, I wish I had made a movie like this. Well, I think that, well I mean Daniel Day-Lewis with all respect he's made a bunch of great he's made some great choices with the choices he made I think that the surprise of this movie is just how if you really diagram the sentence of the performance so to speak there's so many strange things that he's doing here and so much of it is about like staying like this right just never moving beyond the like a like a like a certain like emotion an emotional radius a physical radius this is a person right how he uses his energy like even when he's waiting for jack twist when he's drinking the bar in the apartment the beers and he's just like yeah he's got six beers next to him and he's oh he's in the apartment yeah waiting as almost like what the fuck's going on yes who's this jack twist guy i mean we've all been that person though, right?

48:15But the idea that it's Enes Del Mar, who's suddenly wrapped around somebody's finger like that, it's really, really beautiful and sweet. The child likeness, the adolescence of who Heath Ledger thinks this guy is. Because on the page, that's not really, I mean, at least in the short story, that's not quite so clear, right? He is he is incorporating these very real world human experiences into this performance that are very much like being 15 years old and waiting for somebody you've got a crush on to acknowledge your existence. And you think they might not even show up.

49:00Bill Simmons:You know what made me think? I think every generation, maybe even every decade, has an actor or an actress who's taken too soon and becomes like the what if. Because for my generation, was River Phoenix. We thought River Phoenix was going to be like one of our guys, right? I think I was almost the exact same age with him, but it just felt like he was on the track to be whatever, and then he died. 100%, yes. Who's for your generation, Craig? Do you have one? Because Heath Ledger's older. Actors? I don't know. Or actresses. Maybe it's once a generation. No, I don't think... Who's died? It's like John Cazale's like that for the 70s, right?

49:39Bill Simmons:He does five movies and dies. Yes, yes, yes. And then you think it almost becomes like sports where you go, man, think all the ways this could have gone. No, we don't really. It's all so different now. We don't really have. I mean, we have Mac Miller, Kobe Bryant. They're all other places. Yeah, it's more musicians. And then Gyllenhaal, who I think had a really, really good meaty career. Yeah. It's gone in a lot of directions. He's had, I think, some really good rewatchable movies. He's had some stinkers. He seems like he's now reinventing himself as this presumed innocent show. A karaoke artist, basically.

50:18Bill Simmons:Well, he's basically like, he's now in this Jon Hamm, like he's going to be on your big Apple TV screen doing some show, and maybe that's where he is now. But this is after 25 years of work. Right. That's an industry condition that he is like, he's riding that wave the best that he can. He did it the way he did it. He's a good actor. But it's interesting that he is doing Roadhouse and Presumed Innocent, these sort of iconic parts. Right. At least Roadhouse is an iconic Swayze part. By the way, two massive hits, right? Amazon, that was the biggest movie. Was that a massive hit? Massive hit. Okay.

50:53Bill Simmons:Good for him. And then Presumed Innocent was one of the only shows that resonated last summer. I really love Jake Gyllenhaal. I am always rooting for him. I love his choices. I think that he... You know, I didn't really finish my point about what's so good about this performance, though in terms of his studying jakes yes and the thing about it is he knows he's playing a rodeo guy right right this is a guy who professionally wanted to like catch things for sport and entertainment and he is good at catching men right oh and i don't like the idea of him like being a stalker that's not what this is but he wanted something and he lassoed it and he tried to keep it.

51:34He's driving 14 hours back and forth to wherever the fuck he's going. Yeah, he wanted to keep it and it keeps trying to get away and he keeps trying to keep it close. And Ennis is trying to get out of the rope.

51:46Bill Simmons:So the four actors who I think spent a bunch of time together on the set and really became close. And then Heath Ledger falls in love with Michelle Williams during the movie. And apparently people knew right away, like, oh, this is on with these two. They end up having a kid. He doesn't work for a year because she's working and he's raising the kids. So he doesn't, there's, has like a year off or so. But I think that everybody like Joan Hall was like the godfather of their kid. There's a lot of like... That makes sense. I mean, like think about what it actually meant to shoot those sheep scenes.

52:28Right? I mean, at the end of the day, sure, there's a crew, but it's these two guys basically alone in the woods for

52:37Bill Simmons:weeks on end. So it ends up being one of the big Oscar disgraces of the 21st century. Can you think of a better one? Ang Lee wins for director, wins for best score, wins for adapted screenplay. Crash beats Brokeback. We covered Crash. We did a flawed rewatchables of that one a while ago. You missed it. I didn't miss it as a listener. And we don't have to litigate how dumb that was. It was dumb when it happened. It was fucked up. And it shouldn't have lost. But Hoffman versus Ledger is a really interesting one. Because Hoffman's great in Capote. And I think as the years passed, people were like, oh, man, Ledger.

53:16Bill Simmons:I don't really know the answer to that one. But it certainly wasn't a bad Oscar for Hoffman. Like, Hoffman became Truman Capote. That was fucking incredible. No. So I don't really know how I feel about that. Both performances were great. I get it. But, you know, let's just do some Hollywood math here. Hoffman deserved one. Hoffman had been around for longer. Ledger was 25 years old. He was 25 years old. There was a belief that, like, well, he'll be back here 10 more times. Right. I mean, why waste it? Why waste it on? Why not give Philip Seymour Hoffman his Oscar now? And we'll give Heath. It was brewing for five, six years with Hoffman.

53:52Bill Simmons:Like, this guy's a fucking awesome actor. And then culminates in Capote. Yes. And also, the performance is just very good. Like I really like watching Brokeback Mountain this time. I was like, this performance is, is great. But I also understand. I don't have any objection to what Philip Sewell. Gyllenhaal loses to George Clooney in Syriana. Not sure what happened there. I'm going to sit on my hands. George Clooney in Syriana. Think about that. Think about the times that we lived in, in 2005. Like that. First of all. Craig, have you ever seen Syriana? No. Do you even know what Syriana is? No. I've heard of it.

54:33I don't know what it's about. It was that crazy time in our lives when the movies really were, though, about the world we were living in. It was post-9-11.

54:41Bill Simmons:Yep. The Bush stuff had started. Yeah. And all of a sudden, Syriana is an important movie. Yeah. It's not an important movie. It's a movie that thinks it's important. It's a movie that thinks it's an important movie. But I want to... You know how I feel about category fraud. Yeah. Well, Gyllenhaal should have been best. What are we doing here? Yeah. What are we doing? Ledger's in probably two more scenes. Although I guess Ledger's basically the last 20 minutes of the movie. It's him. But I don't. Okay. That is literally true. I don't feel like this is a grade one category fraud. Really? Yeah, because they're trying to get Gyllenhaal an Oscar, right?

55:19Bill Simmons:You don't want him competing against Heath Ledger. And Ledger is in the movie more than Jake Gyllenhaal. But it's not screen time. that determines this. Listen, we live in a world where Lecter was best actor for 16 minutes. That's what I'm saying. Like, it doesn't, the screen time is not the issue here. It's the importance of the character. It's the two guys together. I get it. It's like, there's no, it's not only, is there no movie without Jake Gyllenhaal, but like, Heath Ledger's performance means something else without the, it's the Tom Cruise and Rain Man question. Right? Like, I just feel like what Gyllenhaal is doing, I don't know how these, things work.

55:57I'm sure that somebody in his world had to sign off on him being demoted to this other category in order to make it easier for them both to possibly win.

56:05Bill Simmons:If I'm killing it, I'm like, put me in supporting. There's no way I'm beating Heath Ledger. I just hate it. I just want a W. I just hate category fraud. He's also too good. I don't know. Michelle Williams, Best Supporting Actress, loses to Rachel Weisz. Wait, who else was that year? The Constant Gardner. Amy Adams in Junebug. Catherine Keener in Capote. and Francis McDormand in North County. Ooh. We call it a strong year. Wasn't a strong movie year. Was not as, 2005 was not a great movie year. I, I, I love Rachel Weisz. She should have Oscars for maybe four other performances.

56:48I, I, people were charmed by that, by her in that movie. I've obviously of those five performances. I'm probably, I'm probably going with Michelle Williams.

56:59Bill Simmons:Like what's funny is this isn't the most traumatized wife she ever played. It's not even close. It's not even close. Actually. That is true. I'm like somehow marrying Enos Del Mar wasn't as bad as the Manchester by the sea guy. Oh no. But she's really good at that sort of suffering. I don't think anyone has a better, I'm completely broken, suffering, wide-eyed, I'm about to start crying, but I'm trying to stay strong face. She might be the goat. Well, she always, she has this ability to look like, yes. Like, she's trying to keep it together. Yeah. But, like, I'm this kind of crier where the crying starts before I can even articulate why I can't articulate why I'm crying.

57:48Like when you cry later in the podcast? Possibly. Okay.

57:51Bill Simmons:I don't want to. $14 million budget. $14 million budget made$179 million. Everywhere or in the year? Yeah, everywhere. Yeah. $14 million budget. Roger Ebert. Four stars. Brokeback Mountain could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie. It could be a melodrama. It could be a gay cowboy movie. But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is observant as work by Bergman. Strange but true, the more specific a film is, the more universal. Because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone. Yep. Raj, nailing it.

58:31Bill Simmons:Raj is on a heater right now. Just true. For the rewatchables. But you know what he also gave four stars to? Syriana? a crash he did he was affected and also said listen the better movie actually did win yeah I know not great let's do most rewatchable scene so it's nothing really in the first 25 minutes except for that first scene outside the trailer that you're pointing out like the little cat and mouse game but But basically, we're just hanging out as the guys eat beans and get bombed.

59:13Bill Simmons:The scene. I got to throw it in there because it's one of the most famous scenes of the movie. I want to... The tent scene? I'm going to tell a story. Okay. Oh. We watched this movie the other night with my wife and my daughter, who's home from college. Okay. She had no idea what this movie is, but she really likes Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal. Carrie loves this movie. Carrie, this is one of my wife's like seven or eight favorite movies. Okay. And my daughter doesn't know what it's about, but likes the two actors. Okay. So we're going and we're going 25 minutes and she's into it and she likes it and looking at the phone every once in a while.

59:49Bill Simmons:And we get to this scene and I forget who's behind you, but somebody rolls over and she's like, wait, why are they cuddling? And Carrie starts laughing. and so he goes wait what what's gonna what and then the tensing happened and she couldn't believe it she had no idea it was coming so that was kind of funny and then so she's seeing it through the prism of everyone does it like really we're gonna throw in the gate like we see Amazon Netflix all these different streamers they all try to be edgy by having characters going all these different directions so her guard goes up because she's like oh here we go this is this is the way we're going And by the end of it...

1:00:34But where did she think they were trying to... Where did she think she was going to be taken? I just didn't think... She didn't know what she was watching.

1:00:39Bill Simmons:She just thought we were watching like a Western. Okay. She thought it was a Taylor Sheridan show. Right. Which, like, hey, Taylor Sheridan, you know what you could use a little bit more of? Honestly, I mean, listen, let's be real. Let Cole Hauser have it. Let him go. Let him off his lease. Let him explore the studio space. By the end of the movie, my daughter was like sobbing in tears. Couldn't believe that. So it did. It's it did. It's move, man. This movie is really good. Anyway, next scene, Jack and Ennis fight and say goodbye. And Ennis throws up and punches the wall a couple of times, which apparently he did in real life and wasn't supposed to punch the wall.

1:01:23Bill Simmons:And they were worried he broke his hand. He had a sprain. I mean, he gets up and looks at he's looking at his hand as he walks away from the punch method acting sometimes can go wrong. it's a small scene but Randy Quaid telling Jack Twist there's no chance for another job yeah you boys sure found a way to pass the time up there Twist you guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dog baby the shit and the sheep while you stem the rose I've never heard that one before when you stem the rose basically you are kind of doing this wow Randy Jack meets Lorene Anne Hathaway's character yeah she's ready to go she's on the go team a lot of horses in this movie but it's just Anne Hathaway coming in through our 100 Jack goes to see Ennis which we talked about when he gets the postcard comes in Alma's like hey do you think your friend will want to have a coffee no he's from Texas he doesn't drink coffee runs out to meet him and then Alma makes the mistake of opening the door thinking she's going to meet...

1:02:38Bill Simmons:Alma makes the mistake. What is Ennis doing? Ennis just lost his mind. The biggest picking nit of the movie is what is he doing? That's your... I mean, he didn't even hide behind a corner. I mean, he just jumps his body right down the stairs. I am telling you the others... He really missed them there are some real contexts that we have to keep in mind this is probably 1963 yeah this is we're in no now we're in 67 all right well we're in that we're in this we're in the 60s not exactly a big like respect your woman we didn't know we were in 1967 because angley decided not to play credence clearwater revival to let us know we're in 1967 yeah well Or in a real hippie-free zone.

1:03:25Yeah. So there'd be no conventional markers. But I mean, I think the thing that is so devastating about this movie that's ancillary to the love story is just the sexist, misogynist, chauvinist world these guys are living in and in their way maintaining, right? Yeah. These are two people who are ultimately kind of shitty to women. and I have a whole category for this later and I think the power of that scene is I mean you understand what's happening here immediately because Ledger

1:04:02Bill Simmons:has sold you. Alma Shore understands right but it's there are two times when we see the thing that's shocking about that scene to me is there are two times in the movie where we're outside the relationship and we're seeing what somebody else sees. And it's almost as if that movie trick of translation where these people, these two characters, all these characters are speaking one language and we're hearing it as English and then there's some cut to somebody else who doesn't speak that language and we're hearing gibberish, right? It's like the Randy Quaid sneer when he's got the binoculars and he's just like...

1:04:45Yes. The two times we're seeing it, We're seeing it through a window and through binoculars.

1:04:49Bill Simmons:And through a tire iron flashback. Right. But that's sort of different, right? Because we don't know whose perspective that is. Yeah. But the, you just totally understand the immediacy of it. And these two actors are selling. We don't give a fuck who sees this. He like comes to his senses. It's the one time in the movie that Jack loses, that Ennis loses control that in a way, well, I mean, And this also is violent. I mean, Ennis only loses control. His only mode of expression is violence. His only emotional mode is either fucking somebody or fucking them up. I think when your friend comes out of nowhere to visit and you just tell your wife, hey, we're going to get some drinks.

1:05:35Bill Simmons:Not sure I'm going to be back tonight. Like, what is that? You know what it was? It was the 1960s. That's what I'm saying. You just tell your wife. That's what I'm saying. I don't know if I'm going to be back tonight. I don't know if I'm going to be back. Craig, you should try that over the weekend. Liz, somebody's in town. I don't know if I'm coming back tonight. I think he even says, like, I might be back in a couple days. Right, right. Well, I mean, in the story, I don't remember if this happened. I don't think this happens in the movie. But in the story, Jack is like, just tell her you'll be back in a few days.

1:06:05I do it all the time, basically.

1:06:07Bill Simmons:Do you think we could have, like, one of the 50 states just operates with social rules from the 60s where men are just like, I'll be back. I think they do. We live in that country right now. All 50 states are this imaginary state you're talking about. We're back in 1955 all day long. Alma's, I think my husband's passionately making out with his friend Jack twist face is in the pantheon of faces in the movie. What an expression. Just like, oh my lord. What an expression. The campfire convo another rewatchable scene of whether they could end up together when ennis tells the flash by tire iron story and it's basically sets the stakes like this isn't just about forbidden love like we could fucking get killed here yes so important um i like the double dysfunctional thanksgiving with loreen's asshole dad turning the tv in that little battle and then uh we have jack twist and alma and she's like you know i kept those those tags on that fishing pole and i wrote a little note and uh you never caught any fish and uh man it got it i which which was the more dysfunctional thanksgiving probably that one well because you don't expect i mean the thing about ennis is he is so everything is so tamped down and he thinks that he's got control over the whole narrative yeah and she knows the whole time and she knows the whole time and the idea that the real thing for him that is so upsetting is that he wasn't getting away with anything, right?

1:07:46He thought he was getting away with this thing and she had no idea. You didn't go up there to finish. You don't know nothing about her. I'm going to yell for the wrong. He thinks she's stupid and can't figure it out. She's known the whole time. So he threatens to kill her, basically.

1:08:04Bill Simmons:Jax, this is one of my favorite scenes um the double date with jack and the guy from stranger things and they're why and in a faris what and they're out in the back and he's like yeah i love to go fishing uh we ought to go down there some weekend got a cabin got a cabin and they kind of have that moment um it's been a running joke with me and my wife for 20 years because you know when you're in la you meet parent friends. There's a couple and there's been a couple times where she was like, what did you think of so-and-so? And I was like, I don't know. He kind of gave me a, I got a cabin. We could go up there for a weekend vibe.

1:08:44Bill, your job is to get me the phone number. What are you doing? I mean, I'm in a relationship now and I hope to be for the rest of my life, but you need to be getting me some phone numbers when this happens.

1:08:56Bill Simmons:We ought to go down there some weekend. You've been holding out on me all this time? That's hilarious. Oh my God. The big scene. I think this is the best scene in the movie. The, the boys hanging out. It's, it's the, I wish I could quit you. Why don't you? But it's actually, that scene is so much better than what became kind of a meme of that scene. I wish I could quit you. You know, it ends with Heath Ledger has like a breakdown. He's like, it's cause of this. I'm like, I'm like this. I'm nowhere. I'm nothing. It's just, you're just like, Oh my God. Why don't you just let me be? huh because of you jacked and i'm like this

1:09:41nothing i'm nowhere

1:09:46yeah but i mean poor you like this guy is offering you an opportunity to get away from all this stuff in your city be in a ranch turning it down in mexico it's great i mean but you also understand it. Like, this is a person who doesn't believe in happiness.

1:10:02Bill Simmons:Right. Like, he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't believe it's possible. And it's so true, I think, having met people from that zone of the country. So you're thinking this is like late 70s at this point, so still pretty realistic that it seems inconceivable that you could actually, yeah, let's do this together. It's just not on the cards. It's inconceivable. In Wyoming, in any part of that corridor, insane. But I think that the tragedy, the great thing about that, there's a few great things about that scene. One is the way Heath Ledger is turned from the camera. And Jake Gyllenhaal's assignment there is to try to like, I don't know if his assignment is to get him to like show us his crumpled face to show us Ennis' crumpled face.

1:10:51But Jake does some good stuff in that scene too.

1:10:53Bill Simmons:He's wonderful. When he sees how broken Ennis is and you just see like the lifeguard now he's like oh man we I pushed that because it's the first time he stood up to him yeah declared everything right I mean they've been lying to each other a little bit like yeah like there's I don't believe there's any girl that Jake Gyllenhaal has been running around oh I thought that was the guy I thought that was the caba guy I think he's saying it's a girl but I think it was a girl it was David Harbour yeah um which I totally get um why are we doing like if David Harper or David Harper playing a guy in a cowboy hat sits down to you on a bench and says yo I got a cabin why don't we go to it what are you gonna do I'd be like it's week five of the NFL season you would be like Harry Viking I can't go I can't I can't do this I've got kids but I mean that's such a great moment also because and we can I don't know when we talk about this, but like the other power of this movie is that it is, it is expressing homosexuality in zones in which American popular culture never even thinks to look.

1:12:06Bill Simmons:Well, especially in 2005. Now I think it's more commonplace, right? Yeah, but in 2005, that was part of the power of it. Even now, right? I mean even now this is like watching this movie it still feels like there is some seal that is still not entirely broken on like who gets to be gay who gets to like declare themselves as gay I did think like I didn't put this in the in the rundown but I did think this movie would be way more polarizing in 2025 over some of the some of the ways it's discussed, the gay, bisexual, straight, like, I just feel like it would have... Like how we term... Like what the terminologies are?

1:12:53Bill Simmons:All the terminology. I just feel like there would have been some quagmire we entered versus... Or somebody gives a quote during the junket and they don't like how they said the quote. Sure. And that becomes a thing. That's fair. I mean, even the things that they were saying at the time of the movie's making probably would have gotten somebody in trouble. But... Yeah. I don't know. That's a great... That's an interesting thing to think about too, is like how this movie lands if nothing changes in 2025. We could have had a good laugh together. Fucking real good laugh. Had a place of our own. That guy's making some good points.

1:13:28Bill Simmons:Jack calls Lorene. It's a really good Anne Hathaway scene. Wow. Yeah. And you guys, what I, and there's some good research on this that I'll get to later, but I love how ambiguous it is. Yes. It's like, does she know who this is? There's a lot of ambiguities in this movie. Does she know how Jack died? Yes. What does she want this person to know? It's just really. And then Ennis finds the shirt, sees the parents. Incredible job by those broken parents. That seems like a fun house. I like when she's like, y 'all, come back whenever. It's like, yeah, that sounds great. How about two weeks from now?

1:14:06We can get together and have some more good times. Yeah. For Ennis Del Mar to find something truly unpleasant enough to never return to it is really saying a lot.

1:14:16Bill Simmons:Come back and see us again. And then when the guy talks about, the dad talks about how Jack was talking about, first it was this Ennis Del Mar who come up here. And then he got this new guy who was getting a divorce and he was going to come up here. David Harbour. Wait, what? What's the most rewatchable scene for you? Oh, the opening. Opening scene, okay. because you always want to evaluate just like I mean I've seen the opening a bunch of times we're watching it in the context of the whole movie it's just you're watching a little modern dance between these two men and it's really quite good we'll take another break and then the rest of the categories this episode is brought to you by ChatGPT imagine you're running a professional sports team nice imagine the player contract report is due today, not so nice.

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1:16:32Bill Simmons:AngryOrchard.com. Please drink responsibly. Angry Orchard is a hard cider with other natural flavors. All right, what's the most 2005 thing about this movie, Wesley? Is it how young all the soon-to-be way more famous actors are? Or is it that it was considered as controversial as it was in 2005 when you watch it again? Definitely how young everybody is. And that you couldn't make this movie now, even if somebody were trying to make it, who would you make it with? like it had to be these four people. I was going to ask Craig for a recasting couch. Who is, who is Ennis and Jack Twist? I feel like there is a group of actors now who are challenging themselves in these ways by playing characters like this, like, like Paul Meskel and Adam Scott and Josh O 'Connor.

1:17:22I don't,

1:17:23Bill Simmons:I thought Paul Meskel was one of the ones. Yeah, I agree with you. Paul Meskel, I could see in one of the roles here. Well, sure. I think Josh O 'Connor and Paul Meskel are about to be in a movie about a gay romance. I think. Yeah. It's a New Hampshire, totally different thing. Yeah, yeah. But yes. The Western is different because there's a physicality with it that I think just rules out Tom Holland. Mike Feist. Mike Feist. I mean, we're recasting Couch. Are we doing it now? No, I was thinking how unique this time with the actors was. And there's another very obvious person who I had in my brain.

1:17:57You're right. They need a physicality. It can't be Chalamet. Right. No, no, no, no. but that's obviously the person that they're going to go to.

1:18:05Bill Simmons:It could be Chalamet and the Sacha Baron Cohen gaining 50 pounds of muscle. Did you see that? Jesse Plemons. Jesse Plemons. He's too old now, though. Maybe, but Jesse Plemons is the sort of person. Oh, who was that guy? Will Powder? Will Puder? Will Poulter. I feel like they would do it now, and it would be like, and Sabrina Carpenter, Azama. Yes. I mean, probably yes. Actually, she might not be bad. She probably would not be bad, honestly. What stage is the best? Do you think it's something Gosling could have done 10 years ago? 100%. Yes. I agree with that. But I mean, I just want this. Because when you think about who else could have played these parts in the actual real time, I'm like, you got to be kidding me.

1:18:50Bill Simmons:Funniest casting, Danny McBride as Ennis. And Shane Gillis as Jack. Now, wait a minute. It's so coming. Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're in on this? let's take this seriously for a second because you're out here jerking off on the beans let's do with Danny McBride stuff I'm actually serious about this because the one I mean I'll pick my nit later we'll come back what's age the best the score is incredible and it wins the Oscar it's just great it's perfect it is perfect and just like one of the last movie scores that isn't in a Christopher Nolan movie where the movie is sort of that music, you hear it and your heart just starts to swell.

1:19:36Bill Simmons:Who are you calling out the goat John Williams telling him he's not been working hard enough the last 20 years? Step it up, John. I know you're 93, but come up with some fucking shit again. Just say it. Well, there are people ripping John Williams off is what I'm saying. You've done the work, sir. What's age the best? A character saying the title in the movie, in a scene. All we got here is Brokeback Mountain. It's like, great. You said the title uh this isn't a western but it's a western adjacent which almost needs like its own name but i like being outdoors with a lot of animals and you know just like western ish just how kind of the the quietness and like the first 20 minutes of no country for old men is like this when josh ballin goes out yeah see the murder and just big vast nothing and just quiet and there's an eeriness and a creepiness with it.

1:20:29Bill Simmons:I love things set in the middle of the country in the Southwest where none of the conventional Hollywood things happen in that iconography. Blank slate. You never know what's going to go. Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams falling in love during the filming. Now their daughter is, I think, like six months younger than mine. Oh, wow. Very low profile on her. Okay. Yeah. Jack Twist as a character, we mentioned it before, but the dreamer, when the dad says at the end, like, oh, Jack's ideas never came to pass. I like that these characters are just losers. I don't think we have enough loser characters anymore because now they would just be like some incel in front of a computer or something.

1:21:19Bill Simmons:But we don't have just down on their luck guys that's never going to work out. Ennis, guess what? He's going to pay child support. His life's going to suck. He's going to go to this bar and drink. And that's probably, he's going to live in this trailer. That's it. That's where it's going to end. The last shot of the movie is one of the most devastating shots. I mean, it's up there. I think Magnificent Obsession, the Douglas Sirk movie, the last shot of that movie is doing a similar thing, which is really setting up the hero or heroine in the case of the Douglas Sirk movie. It's a tragedy. And how do we know it's a tragedy?

1:21:58Because they're going to be alone. And here's what they're alone with. This particular memory. I think the Cirque movie is ultimately more devastating somehow because it's a TV instead of a shirt.

1:22:08Bill Simmons:That's a great shot Gordo candidate with the shirt, with the rope back thing, and then the road in the background. That's kind of similar. Just ingenious framing and storytelling. Ang Lee, good at stuff. I'm just going to say this for what's age the best. Sneaky hot cast that doesn't get mentioned in the hot actress cast arguments that I like to have never. Michelle Williams, because I'm old. Michelle Williams, Anne Hathaway, Kate Mara, and Linda Cardellini. You left Anna Faris. Anna Faris for a scene. Who's also wonderful in that point scene. Great job by you. I like this exchange. What do you do Ennis Delmar?

1:22:52Bill Simmons:Earlier today I was castrating cows. yeah yeah what other uh what other what stage the best do you have because we've mentioned a lot uh hold on i think for me it's the score is the one the eternal one oh yeah the score is the thing that will last forever and the and the heath ledger piece of it did you have another one i mean your scribble no i mean i've just got a lot of notes here uh big kahuna burger word for best use of food and drink probably when they cook what do they make like elk or venison uh it's an elk. Yeah, elk. I like that or just a lot of the beans. I mean, how did they... They did a lot of jerky.

1:23:30They were doing... I mean, they know what they're doing with a giant wild animal. It actually made me a little hungry, Craig. Yeah, when you're out there? That sequence?

1:23:40Bill Simmons:Going from beans to that? I mean, as a beans lover... You're shitting for days after that. That's a real RFK junior diet. Why are we hating on beans? I mean, I'm just like... I'm saying beans every day, like at some point. But at some point, You know what's great about beans every day? You stop farting. Eating them every day cures you of the gas. You eat beans every day for two months? I eat beans all the time. I'm a soaker and a boiler. I love the beans. We don't get to give this category out very much. And I'm really excited about it. It's the Sean Penn, I brought my own pack award for excellence in on-screen smoking.

1:24:17Bill Simmons:So it's a scale of one to Robert De Niro and Goodfellas, which is a 10. and he's the only one who could be a 10 because nobody's better than him in that movie when he does the the maury cigarette oh yeah that's down morey dan and that is one of the you know because smoking is a big as a non-smoker but like as a person who's lived with smokers most of his life most of his childhood uh i'm really you got to convince me you know what you're doing with a cigarette and cr made the point when we redid goodwill hunting cole hauser walks into the bar finishes a cig grabs a beer grabs car keys puts the cig out all in one motion that's probably like a nine seven that's that's very i think ledger's like a like a legitimate nine five was he a smoker i don't know if he was a smoker or not but i believed it i'd actually i believe it he uh i think he said he smoked weed since he was like seven years old every day so he clearly was comfortable smoking yeah okay yeah i mean there's just a comfort there's a facility with the with the instrument there?

1:25:17Bill Simmons:It just seems like he had a lot of butts on the set. And then Jake, I think it was like a 7.58 range. I was really convinced with his smoking as well. Culminating in a double smoking post Coetid scene. They're both fucking banging out sticks. And it's like, you guys are this is not watching Tom Cruise trying to work his way through a Marlboro Red. No, no, no. This is some of the worst, one of the worst smokers. Keanu Reeves and Hardball. Julia Roberts, Tom Cruise. Really, most people are just not convincing smokers. Like most actors are not convincing smokers. De Niro should be like when quarterbacks study the mechanics of like Joe Montana.

1:26:04But most people who smoke in movies aren't that character. And the reason that smoking was so good was that's the only way that guy knows how to smoke right right like it just makes it just is perfect

1:26:17Bill Simmons:it's perfect the great shot gordon award most cinematic shot we already mentioned that one at the end i also wanted to volunteer um when ennis beats the two guys up on fourth of july and has that wide shot of the fireworks going on behind him and his wife's like what the fuck is yeah it's just like really well framed it's a nice job by them there's a lot of choices in this movie for best shot. I mean, all those close-ups of the two of them are really... I just remember them. Yeah. And I like seeing them in this movie, having watched it really recently, they just seemed so familiar to me. Like, I've been looking at them my entire life.

1:26:52Bill Simmons:Kid Cudi, Pursuit of Happiness is the word best needle drop. Sweet Melissa by Ullman Brothers. I'll go with that. Or the ending when he says, Jack, I swear, and then the score like kicks in with a hard guitar. Good stuff. Jess Rockwell, Brock Lander's a word for best character name. So you'd want to say Jack Twist here. Don't you? Can I make a case for Lorene? The fuck is that name? Listen, you about to get a lot of Lorenes in your inbox. No, I'm saying if you're Lorene, you're only from three states in the country. Lorenes are coming for you. You're Texas, Oklahoma, and maybe Nebraska. It's a flavor of name.

1:27:33Lurleen is a name I'm familiar with.

1:27:34Bill Simmons:I'm just saying that is a specific region of the country. Yes. But Jack twist is your winner. Jack twist. Pretty good. Alma jr. Though. Let's let's just sit with this for a second. I had that in picking. It's Jack. Oh, just like who names their daughter Alma jr. 1967. Listen, I mean, are we, did you not hear what I said about misogyny, chauvinism and sexism running wild in the, during, can they call it AJ? Listen, there's not a, I don't know. The answer is no. Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film. Craig mentioned a big one that they would be that open, but I think you could make a case.

1:28:11Bill Simmons:They both lost their minds. Jack and Ennis, when they see each other after four years and they're just making out in the driveway. I don't, Craig. I would think that you might be like a - If you spend your whole life hiding it, don't you think that you - But it's, you've also gotten a really massive dose of a thing that you didn't even know you wanted. And it's been four years since you had it. And it's coming over right now. That's how I feel about Drake May this season. You can't hide it. I can't hide my love for that guy. No, I mean - The Patriots might be good again. I think the thing that's so great about that scene is it's the first time in his life that he's lost control in public like that, right?

1:29:00the other time you know there's a case yeah so i'm gonna go i really understand i understand

1:29:05Bill Simmons:can i go with this instead jack twist just driving 14 hours back and forth three four times a year to go fishing with his buddy and his wife's never like huh that marriage 14 hours is i think she was like huh right i think she was i think that marriage is basically dead anyway on the phone at the end you can feel that laureen knows what's going on yeah jack says that to Ennis at one point too. I agree. I think that there's something she, there's no way. I'm sure that the wife, I'm sure Anna Faris and Anne Hathaway, those characters had conversations because Anne Hathaway and Anna Faris is married to David Harbour, right?

1:29:46In this movie. He's got a cabin. And so the cabin is probably a topic of real conversation.

1:29:51Bill Simmons:Like what happens in that cabin? I have this later in unanswerable questions, but he's driving 14 hours both ways, like three times a year. What's the furthest at the horniest point in your life you would have driven for sex regularly? It's 14 hours. I just want to point out in the AM radio days with shittier cars and no podcasts. That's a long time. It's a 28-hour round trip. That's like if you just decided, if Craig's like, tomorrow I'm just going to drive to, I don't know, Texas. You're probably stopping to sleep as well. It's like a real two-day trip. I mean, that is a real commitment. I want to point you to a song called I Drove All Night by Cyndi Lauper.

1:30:36Oh, yeah. And then Celine Dion. That's how Celine is. Somebody makes a good song and Celine jumps right on it. I mean I had to escape the city was sticky and cruel 14 hours that's some good sex I mean listen I've done it not 14 hours I have run I have run I have run across Boston I will not name this person but I have run from Cambridge I ran from Cambridge to Back Bay I ran down I ran down Mass Ave That's over an hour. That's not that far. Like, when you're running, that's like a 20-minute run. I did it, though. It depends what part of Cambridge and what part of Back Bay. Listen, when you... I don't...

1:31:24When it's love, like, deep attraction. You ran? Excitement. I fucking ran.

1:31:30Bill Simmons:You should take the fucking tea or something. Are you kidding? This was like 11 o 'clock at night. Do you know how long I'd be waiting for, like, the red line to come and take me? Yeah. Also, I'd have to transfer. Sounds smart. To get off at Park Station to go run from there. To get to the back bay. That's insane. Just go to MSF. What's age the worst? Okay. Kate Mara and Heath Ledger were four years apart in real life during this movie. It's fucking weird at the end. It looks like she's like the new girlfriend. It's like that's his daughter. It doesn't look crazy. They didn't age him enough, I don't feel like.

1:32:04He was only 39.

1:32:06Bill Simmons:Yeah. They were only those. When Jack dies, he's 39 years old. So he's not even really that old. Could have given him some bad facial hair or something. He's 20 when he has her, probably. Like 19 or 20. All right, I can't wait to do this part with you. Uh-oh. Where does Ennis rank in the worst movie husbands ever rankings? I have some choices. I don't think he's in the top 10. You don't think he's in the top 10? Because I made this list. Well, because he doesn't do anything violent. Go on. Let's just figure it out. If we're going from scale 1 to 10. Okay. sleeping with the enemy guy Laura! I mean that guy you had to like change your identity and end up in the middle of nowhere and he still found you that guy's in a tier of his own he was like rearranging the cans are we ranking these?

1:32:58Bill Simmons:I'm just giving you some choices it's going to be hard to beat Patrick Bergen in that movie oh we're going to beat him really? Ike Turner and What's Love got to do with it Jesus Christ fine Phantom Thread Guy Oh no Yeah She's poisoning him Huh She's poisoning him He was a fucking psycho That's why he poisoned her He needed to be poisoned Sure He needed to be poisoned Ah Interesting Nah He's a different tier I got some more That's a different tier Carlo Rizzi in The Godfather Oh Okay Yeah Yeah Get in the kitchen You giddy bitch He got his though He got his Bufa gull you

1:33:41Bill Simmons:All right. Ennis is starting to look pretty good, honestly. Yeah, he beats up his wife multiple times, but also sets Sonny up to be shot 175 times at the toll booth. So fuck that guy. Amityville horror guy. Underrated. About to kill his whole family with an axe. Oh, sure. James Brolin, putting him in. He was possessed. Jeff Daniels, in terms of endearment. Wait. What a fucking piece of shit he was. He's in the Ennis Del Mar class of person. I'm just giving you choices. That's a different tier. Flap. His name was Flap. There's a - Flap. Oof. We haven't done Terms of Endearment yet. I can't wait to kill Flap.

1:34:17Bill Simmons:Ring my phone. That's another one of the seven movies my wife watches the most. I mean, it's a perfect movie. Get over here and say goodbye to your mama. Give my daughter the shot!

1:34:32Bill Simmons:Daniel Plainview for worst husband. I guess he's more of a worst dad, but I just wanted to float him out. We're just going worst. Wow, you really are just going straight to the top. Close Encounters guy, Roy Neary. We just did this movie. He just abandons his entire family because he thinks the aliens are coming. Listen, that is your winner. We're not done yet. Wait, we're not done? No, because I have this as the Mount Rushmore. uh the dad from home alone fucking loses his kid fuck that guy where's kevin he's not here um oh john heard jack torrance in the shining oh man what am i doing i'm i gotta leave because he tries to kill everyone in his family and i'm gonna sit here and chases his kid in a frozen maze winner it's not even close i got two more what de niro in this boy's life oh god poor ellen bark and okay go on what was that guy's name uh i don't remember him with the daryl probably i mean that movie ends with them escaping yeah the house and him going you'll remember me you'll remember me and then i think our winner the great santini all right wow duval wins the oscar for how horrible of a husband and father the whole movie is about him being a fucking nightmare and psychologically destroying his kids.

1:35:57Bill Simmons:All right. So, yeah, Ennis is starting to look pretty good. Ennis is like a 3 out of 10. Yeah. He's fine. He's just a shitty husband. I mean, if we're doing it the Richter scale way, sure, he's a 3 out of 10. Yeah. Great. He's a 3. Did you have an answer for the Ruffalo Hanna-Rubbineck-Partridge overacting award? I felt like the acting was really good in this. No, I don't have anybody for that. Okay. Well, you have a flex category. It's the first time since we've had the new format. that you've had to do a flex category. What'd you have? Could this movie, which I think does not need much improvement, be improved if one of the characters had a dog?

1:36:40Bill Simmons:Oh, Ennis could have absolutely had a dog. Ennis, I mean, this is the thing that's going to start making me cry, Bill, because... Do we have this as a category? No. Should this character have had a dog? I swear to God, I read that on the list. You said me. The Ennistel Mara word? Oh, should you name it? Should you make it a category? Yeah. We're going to name this the Ennistel Mara word. I just feel like... What kind of dog? I don't know. I don't know anything about dogs. Probably like a lab? You're the dog person. Probably a dog that swims a little bit. I just feel like this is a guy who is so lonely.

1:37:14Bill Simmons:Yeah. And so estranged from himself. And the only connection that he has that is meaningful to him... has to drive 14 hours to get to him. Yeah. And I just really feel like that guy's life would have been so much better because he had horses. Kate Mara's character was like, I'm right here. Let's go to a ball game. He almost doesn't even want to go to her wedding. Right. He has to sit there and it has to occur to him. You know what? Jack would probably tell me to go to this wedding. Dang, I'm going to go to the wedding. I think a dog really would have helped. I really think a dog would have helped.

1:37:52Bill Simmons:Probably maybe like a bloodhound. what are they like? I only know them from cartoons. They're kind of sad. It's like a dog that would be sad. Enos couldn't have a happy dog. It would be like a hang dog. Like a field dog, though. Like a border collie. Oh yeah, border collie's good. Wesley's right. This is already an award. It's the Cliff Booth Award. Is this movie better if the main character had a pet? Wow. I'm really going to see now. But I think that... The Cliff Booth. Now I have to add Ennis to it. Add Ennis. The Cliff Booth Ennis Del Mara word. All right. We have so many categories now, I forgot.

1:38:31Bill Simmons:All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award. Do you have a hottest take for this movie? I have one. I can carry this if you don't have one. I don't have one. Okay. I have one. Again, hottest take. I think you can make a case. Heath Ledger had two of the best six or seven acting performances by a male in the 21st century. Six or seven? I think you can make the case. That's why this is the hottest take. Go on, make the case. Dark Knight broke back. I think if you're doing this list backwards and you're like, all right, I'm making my list of the 12 best actor performances in the 21st century, and you just work backwards from it.

1:39:12Bill Simmons:Okay. him and the joker and daniel day lewis and there will be blood are just automatic they're one seeds they don't even play anybody in round one they just advanced around two great and then it like i like here just some i wrote down i probably didn't get all of them ledger and broke back both guys in the master casey afflick oh wait can you say this again what is what are we what What are we doing here? Best male acting performances of the 21st century. Okay, okay, okay. I thought this was limited to Heath Ledger. Okay, got it. Go. Denzel in Training Day. Mahershala Ali in Moonlight. Javier Bardem in, I probably mangled that, in No Country for Old Men.

1:39:58Bill Simmons:Leo in Wolf of Wall Street or The Revenant. Pick one. DDL in Phantom Thread. Mm-hmm. J.K. Simmons in Whiplash? Sure. no argument. And my hot one for this is Daniel Kaluuya in Get Out. I think he's fucking incredible in that movie. He's fantastic. He's great. But I'm sure there's like, you could put 20 more in there. But the point is, I'm spending... Ledger definitely has one. Yes. And I think you could make a case for NS. I'd say two. That's fine. I can live with that. I mean, but, you know, I'm working on... All those people won or were nominated for Academy Awards, every single one of those performances.

1:40:33Bill Simmons:Yeah. I am doing a thing. I am compiling the hundred I'm going to do the 100 performances of me ever never nominated for Oscars. Did I tell you about this? No. Podcasts or written? I'm going to write it. That sounds great. So there's a bunch by some of these people who just they didn't get anything. Did Steven Seagal make it or no? I'm still compiling the list so you're two cents. your two cents your four cents are welcome are you doing of the 21st century or all time no since 1951 which was in um uh on the waterfront i'm sorry which is when um streetcar named desire came out i'm the mark i'm 75 years since streetcar casting what ifs um there's this whole section in the late 90s when people are trying to make this movie and you won't be surprised to hear that gus fan, Sam, was involved.

1:41:34Bill Simmons:Oh, boy. And wanted to make it with Matt Damon as Ennis. Oh, no. And Damon, this is an actual quote, because he kind of regrets not doing the movie, but also couldn't do the movie. He told Gus, Gus, I did a gay movie, Count to Mr. Ripley, then a cowboy movie, All the Pretty Horses. I can't follow it up with a gay cowboy movie. Listen, Matt Damon, you can give press conferences all day long. You love Matt Damon quotes. He's the best. They looked at Josh Hartnett, Joaquin Phoenix allegedly who, although he says like nobody ever asked me I would have done this movie in five seconds. Joaquin Phoenix says that?

1:42:10Bill Simmons:Yeah. Van Sant went to make on Milk instead. Movie dies for a couple years and McMurtry, one of the screenwriters says, Gus couldn't get Anna's cast. That's what slowed it. Actors, representatives were dissuading them from doing the part. They called it career suicide for a straight actor to play a gay person. Larry McMurtry said this? Yeah. And then ironically your guy Joel Schumacher was attached at one point with Ed Norton I knew it this just screams it's screaming out for the most tasteless director we had for so long to give it the tasteless treatment instead of making a beautiful work of art the way our friend Ang Lee did so it bounced around so Joel Schumacher and who?

1:42:59Bill Simmons:Ed Norton so it would have been Ed Norton and Colin Farrell Edward Norton, my bad. He doesn't like being called Ed Norton. So Joel Schumacher, if Edward Norton and Joel Schumacher hook up to do this, Colin Farrell is definitely playing something in 2005 for sure. Ed Norton and Colin Farrell. Yep. That's, I mean, if it's Joel Schumacher doing the, or McConaughey. McConaughey's in there somewhere. Ang Lee met with Mark Wahlberg for a role. Wahlberg declined because he was creeped out by the script. tough tough day for Boston

1:43:42I mean we have all been on a journey with this man

1:43:48Bill Simmons:listen I'm just hoping he's in a good place in 2025 talk about a man who is carrying around a lot of shit And I hope he has worked it out Because He just sold his house to Paris Hilton Said yes or no for working it out He's been telling on himself for years I'm just wow Okay great Ledger from the beginning wanted to portray Ennis and not Jack Oh That makes sense And then Lee and Gyllenhaal They didn't say what actors were the other ones But there were some people who were just like I'm not doing that Hathaway got the script they wanted to read for Alma and she read it and she's like I'm Lorraine I want to be Lorraine I wonder why I don't know it's interesting because she I don't she's such an interesting person to me because I mean I'm a really big Anne Hathaway lover under almost all circumstances we've both had stock in Hathaway Island for a long time.

1:44:58Bill Simmons:And I don't even... I've had a condo there since 2005. I don't even love Rachel getting married. I know. I think the star of that movie is Rosemarie DeWitt. Yeah. She's in Untamed with Eric Bana. Oh, I love her. They're carrying a secret. And there's a murder. Eight episodes. Got to find out what's going to happen. Am I going to watch this? listen it's if if people think ai is coming i think the counter argument would be ai is already here oh i'm already convinced and they're like yellowstone park murder dead kid don't go here this is not what we came to do but listen if ai can bring the movies back then i'm all for it because if ai people are already i've said this to craig if ai can give us another round of seagal and Van Damme and Stallone, if we can just run that back.

1:45:53Bill Simmons:What? No. That's not what I want AI to do. We can - I just make stuff that I like to watch. I just, all right, just use it as a little yeast, a little starter. Guess what? Make your bread with your AI. They've been using it all decade. Nobody wants to say it. I'm not surprised. That's that guy, David Harbour. He's got to win, right? Because he wasn't David Harbour until Stranger Things. He was - He was a full-fledged that guy for years. And I saw him, when I saw this movie in 2005, I was like, who is that? You know him as David Harbour now, right? Yeah. Do you like the new setup where I can just turn to you?

1:46:32Bill Simmons:It's nice. I'm not like behind the camera. I really love it, honestly. It's great. Dion Waiter's a word. We got Randy Quaid. Wow, you guys stem the rose. Got... Although, Anna Faris. Anna Faris first seen Anne Hathaway's dad. Really bringing it. Who is that actor? Do we even know? I don't know who that actor is. The cabin guy named Randall. Down low Randall. He's got a cabin. And then... That's David Harbour, right? David Harbour. And then Linda Cardellini. Oh, yeah. I think she's really good in this movie. She's really good. By the way, I've always liked her. What's not to like? She brings everything she's got to most of the poor performances that she's assigned to get.

1:47:19Bill Simmons:I'm a big fan of hers. She is like two good parts short, it felt like, over that stretch. She should have gotten an Oscar nomination for Green Book. I wonder who Mark had corrected her. What? What should she have gotten an Oscar nomination? Green Book. She's really good in that movie. I hate Green Book. I think it's one of the worst movies made in the last 50 years. Oh, we're going to argue about that at dinner tonight with my wife because my wife likes Green Book. Listen, some of my best friends like Green Book. Bill? I've saw it for the first time. When? Maybe five weeks ago. What? Yeah. I lied when I came out.

1:47:56Bill Simmons:I pretended I watched it and I didn't. I just didn't want to. Bill Simmons, what? Yeah. You pretended to see Green Book? I was like, yeah, I saw it. It was fine. I never saw it. Oh my God. So now what's the truth? The movie just ends.

1:48:15Bill Simmons:Mahersha Hartley shows up for dinner at the end one of the most depressing scenes I've ever seen in a movie and they're like he has nothing else to do in the holiday and they welcome him in it's like whoa this scene's gonna be really good the whole movie's been building for this and it's like closing credits they've been friends for their whole life and it's like wait what I have to say though that was the ending I just want to be clear about one thing I'm not done with this I want to be clear I loathe this movie. I, to this day, am getting letters from people who are mad at me. I remember your initial stance.

1:48:51Who are mad at me because I am really not in it.

1:48:53Bill Simmons:I actually think I did see it in 2018. I just forgot it. Stands to reason. Although I don't know how you could forget. I must have seen it. I'm joking about lying. I do think I did see it. I probably was just drinking wine and forgot it immediately. I don't know what's happening right now. But listen, the last scene of this terrible movie is actually quite good. Yeah. Because it's the most depressing thing to happen to a black man in a movie in about 35 years. But, and I'm really, I really mean that, I think. But Mahershala Ali shows up at their house, their apartment. The racist he's been spending all this time with being driven around the deep south where more racism happens.

1:49:37Yeah. And the Viggo Mortensen character is likable because he's not KKK racist. Yeah. He's just a stupid Italian racist. He doesn't know any better racist. Oops, sorry, I didn't know. Anyway, Mahershala's lonely, has no place else to go, comes to the apartment for Feast of the Seven Fishes, and Linda Cardellini leans over into Mahershala's ear and says, I can't believe, I've told y 'all I'm feeling really emotional right now, but like, I know you wrote the letters. What an ending! it's fine they didn't we did because the dinner they couldn't have sold that dinner because it would have been terrible they would have been all kinds of eggplant like just terrible jokes terrible jokes it needed to end where it ended and the ending is kind of sweet i know you wrote the letters thing about it well oh oh i guess we're i guess i'm gonna get up now uh so who wins the on waiters i think randy quaid okay i think you're right actually i think it's

1:50:37Bill Simmons:randy quaid recasting couch weird did it uh craig has a flex category and you kind of took it i was gonna do the rick dalton award for the best fucking acting i've ever seen in my life and i it for our generation with heath ledger we have 10 things i hate about you we have a knight's tale which is a movie i really like oh yeah knight's tale um another good movie star performance from he totally broke back and beloved movie broke back and then dark night and I think even with some of the best of the best, Leo, Daniel Day-Lewis, when I'm watching movies with them, I still see Daniel Day-Lewis in Leo DiCaprio.

1:51:12I think Heath Ledger is the only lead where I'm like, I don't see Heath Ledger. Like, The Joker and Brokeback Mountain and 10 Things I Hate About You, which is like a teen romantic comedy. The fact that he gets away with all three of those characters, and you never once think about any of the other ones, even when you rewatch these movies over and over, I think is so incredibly impressive at his age. I don't think anybody else has done it like that. There's no through line. I mean, it's true that we don't have enough data, really, to create one. Yeah. But one of the, like, I don't know, silver linings of the tragedy of his life is that all the characters are these, they stand individually, discreetly apart from each other.

1:51:54I mean, the next time most people saw Heath Ledger after Brokeback Mountain was as the fucking Joker. Right. And it was like immediately it worked and it was one of the best performances ever. To go from Ennis to the Joker is like one of the most insane jumps in movie roles I think ever.

1:52:09Bill Simmons:It's really crazy. I agree. Yeah, I mean, in a weird way, I'm always reluctant to give actors credit for acting, for stretching or like doing something different from the other thing. But I also think that, I don't know how old, So he was 26 at that point? He's 25 and broke back. He's like 21 when he does 10 Things I Hate About You. Yeah, and he's like 27, 28 as a joker. Because I think the thing that feels impressive now is who's going from that to that, right? Like whose pendulum can swing that far from one direction to the other direction? The guy who just came to mind is Pattinson? yeah but there's a little i still always feel like he's patents he's but he not it's not that and chalamet i always feel like he's chalamet i even feel like leo is always leo fair but you know what the thing about the wait can i well i don't feel like ledger is always ledger but we're talking about right see the thing is we're we have we've already left the zone of young people dicaprio's 50 right i was about to talk about denzel i had to bite my tongue but in this new spike lee movie he's doing another this is another denzel i've never seen this denzel before it's very subtle i think it's very different younger pacino became different people in weird ways but the point but craig's point is i don't know it's very difficult now to imagine given the dearth of material, the scaredy-catness of the people managing people, the actual lack of talent, I hate to say.

1:54:00I don't know who is capable of first giving the Brokeback performance and then giving that performance and getting cast as the Joker in Dark Knight. So you're agreeing with Craig? Yes. I'm just saying, we can't have this conversation for very long and still be talking about people under 30 years old.

1:54:21Bill Simmons:You know what else is a good category? The Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot. This is a real category. Still here. Michelle Williams requested that her two male leads kiss in front of her to help her get in the right emotional place for her character, Alma. She was involved with Ledger in real life. She felt it would help her. She had to go both men into it as their first attempts were too half-hearted for her liking. Michelle Williams, ultimate method actor. Wow. Well, I mean, I don't know what Jake Gyllenhaal's preferred mode of acting is, but they definitely seem, Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams definitely seem to be, it's funny, the marriages align with the way I think of them as actors.

1:55:04And I think Anne Hathaway and Jake Gyllenhaal are a particular kind of actor to me. And Michelle Williams and Heath Ledger are a different kind of actor. character um yeah so it all kind of makes sense but good for her um half fascinated research how

1:55:22Bill Simmons:many takes for the uh tense sex scene oh god i think ang lee wanted i was thinking about how many takes it would take to get it to get it right um or to make ang lee happy at least well the answer was 13 wow and they used the 13th take whoa um huh ledger grew up around horses and learned to speak in Wyoming and Texas accents. Texas accent? Filmed the movie in Southern Alberta. Oh, good. Canada doing another great performance as us. Williams sprained her knee in the snow scene. Ledger injured his hand when he punched the wall. And they had a kissing scene and Ledger almost broke Gyllenhaal's nose.

1:56:03Bill Simmons:I don't know what scene it was. Probably the one Craig hates. Yeah. Utah jazz owner Larry H. Miller. Oh, no. I remember this. removed the movies from the theaters. Oh, man. In Utah. He didn't want it. Didn't have the right family values for Larry. Did he see the movie? He said, no resemblance of traditional family, which he believed is, quote, dangerous. Did he watch the movie? Focus Features says, we'll never send another movie to Utah. How about that? Good for you. Oh, Focus Features, by the way. Yeah. Great job on that. Brokeback Mountain, first major film to be released simultaneously on DVD and digital download.

1:56:44Bill Simmons:Is that significant? Apparently. For the films, I have some alternate foreign language titles for Brokeback Mountain. Oh, no. I'm so scared. Don't be scared. All right. We have in French, Italian, and Portuguese. It was titled Le Secret de Brokeback Mountain. No. You guys, what the fuck? No. Or Au Segreto de Brokeback Mountain? No. Come on, Survey Says. No. Why are we doing that? In Canadian French, the translation was Memories of Brokeback Mountain. Okay. Thank you. See, the Canadians were also - No, you're not going to like the Spanish titles. Oh, no. In a Forbidden Terrain and Secret in the Mountain.

1:57:35Forbidden Terrain is like 1999, 1992 Segal. El Terreno Vedado. And then in Hungarian... Uh-oh. These guys usually make the best posters. So let's see what they got.

1:57:50Bill Simmons:To Elbertsko de Gun, Beyond Friendship. Ooh. Kind of a provocative title. It's provocative. I think Beyond Friendship's a good title. I kind of like it. The Hungarians come through. Like if Netflix had a show that launched today and it was like Beyond Friendship, I'd be like, oh, all right, what's this about? I kind of like that. I actually do like that. So, um, Annie Pearl said she regretted, writing this story several years later and said she gets too many fan fiction about, uh, alternative plots, people saying, here's what you got wrong, and just a lot of, uh, backdoor driving with the, uh, backseat driving.

1:58:30Bill Simmons:From men who were, like, doing fan fiction on her. Backseat driving, yeah. Backdoor, okay. Yeah. Uh, I mean, we should just say, just real quick, this short story is a marvel. It is a marvel of concision, brevity, description. Have you read it correctly? It's funny. No, it's great. It's really great. It is a phenomenal, phenomenal piece. It appeared in The New Yorker, right? Yeah. Depressing if you're a writer. Oh, this might make you cry. Yeah. Uh-oh. I haven't done it yet. I haven't cried yet. Daniel Day-Lewis won the SAG Award for There Will Be Blood and dedicated it to Heath Ledger's memory and said the final scene in Ennis' trailer was as moving as anything I've ever seen.

1:59:07I remember that.

1:59:09Bill Simmons:Yeah. I remember that. Keith Ledger told Philadelphia Inquirer that there was a sequence film for the movie where Jack and Ennis helped some hippies get their car out of a river and it took three days to shoot and it was terrible and everybody hated it. Yeah, that's not in the story. That's for sure. And then Annie Pearl sent Jake and Keith an original autographed copy of her story and wrote to Jake, to Jake. And when she did it for Keith Ledger, she accidentally signed it to Ennis and then realized that it was like a almost like a Freudian slip. Like he became Ennis to the point that she said and then she just kept it that way and she told him like I just can't believe you became that character like you did.

1:59:53Bill Simmons:So here's the book. Wow. What a lady by the way. The more I read about her, I mean just one of our great writers. Great writer. Apex Mountain. Keith Ledger. I mean in the war Because Dark Knight came out, he had already died. This is the apex, right? This is the apex. It felt like anything was possible with him. Gyllenhaal, I think it's later. I think it's in that end of watch. What's that movie he made with? It's a good movie with, what's his face? Hugh Jackman? Prisoners? Oh, Prisoners. Prisoners is good. That's a Villeneuve. It doesn't... I like Prisoners. You like Prisoners, Craig? I haven't seen it.

2:00:34It's keyed up enough. It's like the... As you know, I'm really torn about this director. But it's a good use of Jake Gyllenhaal and Hugh Jackman and Viola Davis and Terrence Howard. But the movie is nuts.

2:00:48Bill Simmons:Not as good as for Viola. And Melissa Leo, I think. Not as good as for Viola Davis' Black Hat, being able to be in that classic that we've already done the rewatch. Ang Lee, would you go here or would you go Life of Pi? For Apex Mountain? It's probably here, right? Because he makes this and it's like, anything's possible. Anything is possible. Like, yeah, I think it's definitely... Well, Crouching Tiger... It's probably this. It's this. It's this. Because he comes and makes an... Well, he's a student of America, though. He's made so many great movies about the United States. Michelle Williams?

2:01:26No.

2:01:28Bill Simmons:Definitely not. Traumatized Michelle Williams wife characters? No. I think it's Manchester. I think it's Manchester, by the way. Hathaway, no. Sheep. A lot of sheep. Might be the most sheep we've ever had in a movie. No. What's the answer to that, then? Il Quattro Volta. Okay. The great Italian movie that is just, it's one of my favorite movies, and if you loved it, just watch it. Very sheepy, if memory serves. Gay Westerns? Oh. Yes, but it did inspire some actual gay cowboy. What was the movie I didn't like with Benedict Cumberbatch much later? It wasn't a Western. Oh, The Power of the Dog? Yeah, I didn't like that movie.

2:02:18It doesn't really work for me either.

2:02:20Bill Simmons:That's another one of those Oscar contenders where like six years later you go, wait, what happened? It's kind of how you know the movies change too. I mean, that's a movie that really spoke to my brain more than it did in anything else. Um, that's all I got for Apex Mountain. This'll be fun though. Cruise or Hanks? I, this is a, um. And by the way, you can go any age range for either guy. So for these guys, you would go 20s, Cruise or 20s, Hanks. This is the tragedy of this movie. Or you could go Cruise as the Randy Quaid character. You can do whatever you want. But this is why this movie was such a big deal.

2:02:55It's because there's no moment in time. Maybe in the 70s, you could have got Pacino and Cazale to do this or something like that. But then like, what are they doing in Wyoming? I think Pacino and Cazale absolutely would have done this.

2:03:08Bill Simmons:Pacino fucking made Cruise. Right, of course. One of the five greatest movies of all time. I don't think that Tom Cruise would have gone near this thing with it. Like any era of Tom Cruise. So Tom Cruise is the answer because he could have played Jack Twist. I don't think he would have played Jack Twist. Would not have played Jack Twist. Top Gun era Tom Cruise would be like, my next movie is Brokeback Mountain. But the thing about him is he totally could have played Jack Twist. He would have been a really good Jack Twist. He would have been a really good Jack Twist. We could have had a real laugh at us.

2:03:37Bill Simmons:There could have been a running scene, though, where one of the sheep gets away and he's just sprinting. Well, there are those moments where Jake Gyllenhaal is really kind of just enjoying himself being drunk as Jack. Yeah. He gets a little cruisy-ish. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I feel like... How about Scorsese or Spielberg? Probably Spielberg. I don't know. It's a great question. Spielberg is the obvious answer. Scorsese's Brokeback Mountain would have been just them doing bumps with the beans. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it would be interesting to see what choices I love movie director karaoke, right?

2:04:18When given the opportunity to inhabit the filmmaking of another great director, what does a great director do? It doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while you get something like Gus Van Sant's remake of Psycho or something. I'd be curious to see Scorsese try and do a Bergman

2:04:37Bill Simmons:or a... What was the one he did in the 90s? Age of Innocence? Yeah. Oh, I mean, Great Case... For example, that's Good Bill. That's one of my favorite Scorseses, by the way. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Oh, Randy Quaid's character. Yeah, for sure. I had that as well. Picking Nets. well you already one of mine was could you really eat beans for that many months but you said yes Tommy

2:05:06how's the peeping oh Randy

2:05:09Bill Simmons:literally peeping on the two guys hey Jack Twist how's the peeping anyway how's the peeping um picking it's the uh this is from my wife who's seen this movie too many times. Anne Hathaway has a newborn and it drives my wife crazy when babies are in movies, but they're clearly like four months old. And it's just, she wanted me to put that in the pod. She's like, just let's all get better Hollywood with when we have newborn babies and a newborn baby scene. She's got child labor issues. Just like, don't have the baby be four months old. Oh, interesting. Okay. Interesting. I hear that character. Alma Jr.

2:05:56Bill Simmons:We've mentioned a lot of the pick and knits already. Jack's mom saying, you come back and see us again. We put that invitation in my back pocket.

2:06:08Bill Simmons:I have more unanswerable questions than pick and knits. Okay. Can I add a pick and knit? Please. Hey, Ennis, maybe use the fishing gear once. He didn't know. That's a great point. He just doesn't respect her. What are they eating out there? It's just such a McDonald's. what in the middle of wyoming they're just stopping are they just eating beans they're they're probably i don't know use the fish okay now wait hold on you actually are starting to make some sense yeah this is well no no no no so i have a counter though i think ennis was so dumb about all this stuff i never heard with him like oh i should pretend i fish he doesn't respect her at all yeah yeah i understand that as like a choice but man ridiculous that you would never even open it use it he never even saw the note he never opened it they went for how many years was he doing this he never opened the box also like yeah no i mean it's it's but it's a sign of how wrapped up he is and i will say it's such a great character yeah right because it's so stupid of him it's so he this jack twist jack twist is a great fucking name right yeah and it's just twisted up in his feelings his common sense his decision making like but also maybe actually fish and eat the fish.

2:07:24I don't know. Maybe Jack was

2:07:27Bill Simmons:bringing steaks or something. This raises a key point, though. I had this on Unanswerables, but we could put it in pick and nits. What did these guys do for a week if they weren't fishing unless it was just straight sex for 24 hours a day? They weren't like... Hanging out, going on walks. They're just... You wouldn't need the fishing. What else are they doing? There's no TV. Are they doing like hikes? You know what I think? You know what I think? Are they like, hey, let's do a hike today. Jack Twist? I'm sure Jack brought the fishing gear. I guess. I think they would have had to have fished. I would think so.

2:08:06We're not saying they didn't. What else are they going to do? Jack brought the fishing gear. They're going to go kill elk every time? They used Jack's. They didn't use Ennisons. Like, maybe Jack was bringing other stuff. But just in the story, the thing that's beautiful about it is the way time passes. and she names all the geological and physical locations that they spend all this time. Devastating scene. Oh my God, you guys went all over? They spent a lot of time together. But, and it's still, when they have that fight, Jake Gyllenhaal's character, like Jack still is like, you think you might be able to get by on two high altitude fucks once or twice a year, but not me.

2:08:47I need to be fucking a lot more than twice a year at this altitude. anyway what's the altitude going to mexico do you do you not last as long at altitude no me me personally no like in general high altitude because not an issue for me i didn't know why he pointed out high altitude it's just a great line it's just a great line i didn't know if you like don't last as long at high altitude or if that's a thing i didn't know why i mean there well i mean if you think about what he's asking you get tired quicker the only place that Ennis will go is that far. He doesn't want to leave his area. I was trying to, and they're just, it's so secluded.

2:09:23Bill Simmons:I was trying to think of the funniest thing they were doing to kill time when they were hanging out. And it, it's definitely a board game. Yeah. Cards. It's like they're playing spades or they're playing monopoly. I just love it. God damn. I knew I shouldn't have sold you the oranges. Oh, you always get me with the oranges, Jack twist. But I actually love that. we are sitting here talking about how these two men spent their non fucking time. Well, they're there in a week in the middle of nowhere. I know. They had to have fished. But, but can I just say that the thing that I have not cried yet and I'm not going to, I take it all back.

2:09:57But I think that the thing that is so moving about this movie in so many ways, and the thing that I could not have appreciated as a 29 year old or whatever. Yeah. Is what love is. And love at some point becomes so much about so much more than the sex. Yeah. And I think that one of the things. I tell Craig this all the time. I mean, as marital advice, as a married person to another married person.

2:10:30Bill Simmons:It's boss, you know, in the HR when we do like our HR reviews. It's well put. I have to give him some advice. Every year it's the same note. Which is what? It's not all about the sex, Craig. Yeah. there's more to watch I mean but truly honestly I think that like it was so dumb of me or like I think that the real kind of social genius of this movie and the people who hated it and never saw it but accused it of being activist they didn't understand what the activism really was the activism is that these men are not shown screwing each other's brains out every 15 minutes it's that we understand that what is going on on these trips, or at least I watching it as a, as a person in a relationship and in love with somebody right now is that there is so much more happening in these years than, than the fucking.

2:11:30And the real radicalism is that these two men have found a way to live more or less in harmony until Ennis gets in his feelings and wants to murder. And that we've definitely never seen before. Like, the three of us can sit around and talk about how romantic this movie is.

2:11:52Bill Simmons:Yeah, and especially the other relationships are so bad. And the other relationships are so bad. And think about this. It's happening in nature, right? It's happening in the outdoors. In God's country. It's pretty rare when a movie can pull off when you're upset that the characters didn't end up together. I mean, Casablanca is one of the most famous movies of all time, right? This is something that's been happening forever. But movies try to, especially like every rom-com tries to do this, every sort of whatever, and it's a hard plane to land. But here's another subcategory for you. Yeah. When the relationship doesn't work out because one of the characters made a stupid choice or made a principal choice that isn't stupid but as principal.

2:12:37Bill Simmons:Or in Manchester by the Seas case, burn their house down. Whatever. Yeah. That's the worst case scenario. But that doesn't count because it's not a love story. But when the love story doesn't work out because somebody just can't do it. Yeah. That is really, that's a very tricky and to me, really moving way of thinking about love too. You know what's a good version of this? Where are they? It's big. Oh, interesting. Even though it is not age well. Because? Because she's talking about bad smoke. The kid's about to be 12 again. And she's like, hey, give me a call in a couple of years. It's like, whoa, we've talked about our rewatchables.

2:13:25Bill Simmons:But it's like that kind of, these two actually might have been soulmates. And it just can't work out. Because by the way, he's actually 12. I think Elizabeth Perkins would have waited. I think she really would have. She's great in that movie. She sure is. Wait, we have a couple more categories before we go. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Longlegs, or Wilford Brimley in The Firm? I mean... Can we test drive Sam Jackson's role in this? as the David Harbour character, perhaps? Not a lot of blacks in this movie.

2:14:08Not a lot. There is zero. Yeah. There's zero blacks. Are you expecting to see some? I'm just trying to figure out how Sam Jackson... Well, you know, if they were making this movie now, they would find a way to put a black person in it, and I would object.

2:14:22Bill Simmons:Could Sam Jackson... Unless it was Kanye West, which would make regionally appropriate sense. Fishing near these guys and be like, what the fuck are those guys doing? that's like Sam Jackson. Well, what would Doris be doing? Doris? Doris Berg. I want you to watch Jack Twist, how he maneuvers these sheep around. There is nobody better. He is in full scale. He knows what his herd is and what the other herd is. And this is just a master class, Wesley. Nobody cooks beans like Jack Twist. just one Oscar who gets it one of the tougher ones in a while because it could go the movie Heath Ledger or Ang Lee and Ang Lee won the Oscar and score won the Oscar I think you'd give it to the movie I think it goes I'm down with that way you honor everybody yeah it's the just thing to do probably unanswerable questions at the end so Jack Twist had kind of moved on to our guy David harbor yes begrudgingly begrudgingly he was never over this is a love of your life situation but also jack made it clear like i need to twist did we need a did we need ns at the end to be like he goes up against the shirt and he's like fuck this guy why don't you give this to the cabin guy fucker it just gets mad but you know who didn't come see the parents yeah you know who didn't offer to bury the ashes or take the ashes to brokeback mountain david harbour uh this is really good stuff here for unanswerable questions in 2010 anne hathaway gave an interview about this movie and she said she had no idea whether laurine told the truth or not in the phone conversation after jack died i love that it gets better.

2:16:16Bill Simmons:She shot two takes of the scene. One in which Lorraine knew what was going on and knew about the gay bashing and one in which she had no idea it was a terrible accident with a car tire. Shots from both takes were edited together in the final movie. And she still doesn't know what Ang Lee thought the character knew. And she says, Ang knows the truth in her head. It's not important to me. The ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's heartbreaking. Can we just... Great stuff by Ang Lee. Ang Lee, man. Do this one way, do this this way, and I don't know what I want yet. He had two editors on this movie, I believe, and one of them passed away during post-production or at some point during the production of the movie.

2:17:01And I just, I love Anne Hathaway so much as a professional person. Yeah. And I love that she, I love listening to her talk about how she does her job and trade secrets.

2:17:16Bill Simmons:She took shit for really loving being an actor and being kind of artsy-fartsy about it. But this is how we got where we got, though. But now it's back. People are back in. Like, Devil Wears Prada 2 is going to make a kajillion dollars, and that's going to be her exclamation point career moment, I think. Which I have mixed feelings about. But either way, I just... Enough with these AARP quels. I don't... No, this is a sequel I fully support. I want to know what's going on with these characters. like does Adrian Grenier have a food truck? He makes a hell of a grilled cheese. Is he set up in Boston, LA?

2:17:53Bill Simmons:Not in Eric Adams, New York. He doesn't. I'm going to leave that alone. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I mean, I'm just going to be really basic and ask for the shirts. So the shirt sold on eBay in 2006 for$101 ,000. I have no idea what they're worth. That's it? This is 2006. I think now that would be probably, especially the Heath Ledger one. Yeah. Yeah. Coach Finstock Award, best life lesson.

2:18:25Wait, but I can't remember with this category, is it as expressed in the movie or the lesson I've learned about life from the movie? It's the lesson from the movie.

2:18:36Bill Simmons:Follow your heart. I think that's it. I was going to say when you're in love, when you're in love. Yeah. Yeah. although the movie does have some advice for everybody else uh what is it um if you can't fix it then you got to stay in it or if you can't if you can't fix it then you got to stand it like i had there's a heat there's an ns quote in here when he says when you got nothing you don't need nothing i said that's pretty good it would have been a good high school yearbook quote. That's... That defeatism is not working for me. I think Annie Prohl's fixing it and staying in it. That's genius and true.

2:19:16Bill Simmons:What do you have for a double feature choice? Moonlight. I thought Dark Knight to get both sides of Ledger. Wow. Interesting. Oh, that's great. I love that. But I like that Moonlight's good too, though. I like that. Who won the movie? Has to be Heath Ledger. Heath Ledger. Tough beat for Ang Lee. I don't know what else he had to do. He's been doing different takes for Anne Hathaway, setting the scene, putting it together. He got a Little Academy Award. Yeah, Heath Ledger wins it, though. Heath Ledger. I think this plus the Joker, he becomes one of the most beloved actors, I think, of this century, but also one of the great what-if acting careers.

2:19:56But the interesting thing about him is, like, the myth of him is really about the things that we've been talking about. It's all the what-ifs, right? It's not like his myth, the myth isn't like, is he still alive? Or the scandal of his death. I mean, it really is about the work he did not get to do. And that, that to me feels really rare.

2:20:20Bill Simmons:Craig Horlbeck. First, first time in the new set with his own camera. I know. This is really exciting stuff. Yeah. It's good. It's almost like the offensive coordinator's camera in NFL. I'm in the booth. Yeah. I feel like I'm doing a testimonial on Love Island. You should wear like a Niners warm-up jacket as your Steelers OC jacket with the headphones on. Yeah. I had not seen this, nor had Liz. We watched it together. What? I know. Liz is like, she loves Jake Gyllenhaal the most. I know. I don't know. I was 10-ish when this came out. I don't know. It's just like, for some reason, I never saw it.

2:20:55We both absolutely loved it. Just a beautiful movie. The end, particularly, is my favorite part. the last line of the movie you guys didn't mention which liz and i talked about for 20 minutes oh i meant to do that i swear jack i swear beautifully vague and what a diane warren

2:21:13Bill Simmons:song that turned out not i thought about putting that in unanswerable questions but i think it's supposed to be unanswerable which is the whole point of jack we talked about it we're like what does he mean and it was almost like it's not even about that like you you kind of know exactly what he means even though the words don't make sense yeah um well in the in the story there's this great like that that happens at the very end of the story and so that's accurate to the short story annie proles has this great line um of this paragraph that basically where she says answering he's answering a question jack never asked him he never asked jack to swear to anything but here he was doing it anyway it just like he was so carried away i mean this character is so amazing.

2:22:00The ways in which he's always fighting himself and then these moments of truth come out and they come out wrong but that to me at the end of the movie is the one moment where he says an honest thing that isn't also using his fists or you know his forearms to express it. It's one of the best movies of the 21st century.

2:22:22Bill Simmons:It's also such I can't believe you haven't seen it. I know. But it makes sense. Like you were 10 yeah i don't know when are you gonna cue that one up when you're an adult you know yeah and so i'm so happy that i got to watch it it's also such a depressing example of the decline in movie going this movie made 180 million which now is like 300 million yeah which is insane like this movie would have to be a tv show now because yeah oh yeah movies are movies are not a place where people go to challenge themselves like i can't believe this movie made double what crash made in 2005. Crash made 90, this made 180.

2:22:55And the fact that people in America were like willing to go to this movie in 2005, challenge themselves, sit through an adult drama like this is just so remarkable and would definitely never ever happen now. Have to be a TV show. It would be probably a really great 10 episodes that would win Emmys, but it wouldn't be a movie. Wouldn't be a movie. Couldn't be a movie. It would definitely, definitely be a 10 episode Apple TV situation.

2:23:21Bill Simmons:I do think as good as this movie is, the two actors have to be awesome in it for it to get to where it got to. It all has to work. It all has to work. You could say that with a lot of movies, but I think this one in particular, if you even mess up one of the parts, I think the movie gets, the balance gets just fucked up. I also think it's like this intangible thing where the two actors really have to, you have to believe that these two people, the one moment you allow yourself to think about this as something other than a story being told and that there was a production and people were on set all the time.

2:23:59You have to believe that these two people, when Ang Lee says cut, these guys are going to walk off and get a cigarette or a beer together or a coffee or stand under a blanket together. You have to believe that these two men playing these parts really do love each other.

2:24:16Bill Simmons:There's an alternate universe where this movie is made with like Ashton Kutcher and Orlando Bloom. This is why it's like, oh, you mean, and that's, you mean, I'm just saying like they can't get 2005. Yeah. They can't get anybody else. And it's like, well, it's Ashton Kutcher's the name. I'm interested in, because in the story, they're not really good looking men. They're like, they're just men who, like I would, I probably would be attracted to both these guys in Annie Proulx's story, but they're not, they're not getting movie parts in 2005 based on the way she's written them. Right. and there I think that there is something about a Danny McBride or a Shane Gillis like more average looking guys who I don't are Jesse Plemons I mean these we're saying these guys are too old but like I think there are all kinds of ways to retell the story.

2:25:08I know it should be more regular guys. We don't have regular looking leads anymore. There's no this doesn't exist anymore. There's no Gene Hackman. So to go that route you kind of almost have to look in unusual places yeah and i think i honestly think that if you if if angley were like if the angley that made ride with the devil and ice storm and you and hulk if that guy got a hold of those of danny mcbride will ferrell and john c reilly i mean maybe, but there's too much baggage. Yeah, there's too much comedy baggage. The baggage with Shane Gillis and Danny McBride it just weighs less. You could probably get away with doing this.

2:25:52Bill Simmons:Shane Gillis on the phone. He's turning this idea down. He didn't like it. Creeped him out. Did he creep about? He officially passed. Oh, alright. That's on him. We'll get Nathan Fielder. Now Nathan Fielder prepared for anything for him. Craig Coralbeck, thank you. Chris, thank you. First one in the new set. This is so great, by the way. I had a great time. I forgot we were doing a podcast like 10 times. I mean, it's beautiful in here. Wesley Morris, you're back. We're filming another one later that'll probably run two episodes after this that I'm excited about. Great to see you as always, my friend.

2:26:30Great to see you. Thanks for having me.

2:26:31Bill Simmons:You're welcome.

2:26:43This episode is brought to you by the movie Mutiny. Only in theaters August 21st, Jason Statham stars in Mutiny, the new action thriller from the director of Plane. When an international conspiracy turns deadly, Statham goes off the grid on a one-man mission to take down those responsible. If you're a fan of The Beekeeper, The Meg, or The Expendables, this is exactly the kind of movie you want to see Statham in. one of the defining action stars of the last 25 years, doing what he does best. Think Die Hard on a boat. Mutiny, only in theaters August 21st, rated R for strong bloody violence and language.