‘L.A. Confidential’ With Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, Sean Fennessey, and Andy Greenwald

10:48Bill Simmons:well there is like there are a bunch of Bale movies you could have thrown him in and he probably would have been able to drive the car

10:53Andy Greenwald:he's a great comp that's it we can save this for the casting part but this was a question I had too because obviously the casting makes this movie and the casting was kind of not controversial but more challenging because Curtis Hansen said he wanted unknowns so that the audience didn't have preconceived notions. But if you think about, I'll defer to the film experts here on this, but like, who are the other 30-year-old people that they may have been trying to put in this movie? There's some... It was kicked around. McConaughey was the one.

11:19Bill Simmons:The casting what-ifs weren't what I wanted. McConaughey was the big one. It's funny, it's a perfect Damon part. But he was a little young, right? The Guy Pearce one, it's basically, he plays that part in The Departed nine years later, right? The Guy Pearce is like

11:30Andy Greenwald:almost 10 years older than DiCaprio. I don't know if I would have bought McConaughey as Exley. I think that would have been a bad move. It's coming off Time to Kill where it would be like pretty much like an extension of that character.

11:40Bill Simmons:And they're wearing the same glasses

11:41Sean Fennessey:as in Time to Kill.

11:43Bill Simmons:Because Pierce had a certain energy. It was, it reminded me of when Sean got to Grantland where he's like, I'm just here to do good work but he was secretly scheming who he could take out. Listen. That's the guy Pierce energy.

11:55Andy Greenwald:I don't want to Bogart this but I did come into this movie realizing why you picked this group because if you had to do it there is a hothead who can hang with everyone and is strangely popular with the ladies. Yeah. There is a cerebral power broker who is very, very moral. There's another charming power broker who knows where all the bodies are buried in a senior role. That's me. So is he Dudley? And I'm committing crimes. And then you had to get a semi-self-loathing guy who moonlights in Hollywood and kind of forgets where his bread and butter is and gets called back. So it's hard to work up.

12:23Bill Simmons:Yeah. Okay. It's Hollywood Andy. Hollywood Jack.

12:26Sean Fennessey:We've got a beautiful Lynn Bracken over here, too, in the producer's chair. Cut to look up the producer. Craig's going to be like, it's all hushed. He's a Simon Baker. character.

12:37They're all bad. It's just acting.

12:40Sean Fennessey:I think that makes you haven't done it before. That makes Gahau Johnny Stompanato, of course. Oh, yeah.

12:44Bill Simmons:No question. Well, I wrote this down. L.A. is a beautiful, seductive, fucked up place that's really here to break your dreams and steal your soul.

12:52Andy Greenwald:Is that what we told Sean when we wanted him to move for Grantland? I believe it was.

12:56Sean Fennessey:I'm so happy that I'm here. Honestly, I love it here so much and this movie is a good reason why. I think most people have this weird, tortured relationship with the city and I'm like, I love it. I love that it's a shithole. I love that it's full of people who are doing terrible things to each other every day. I think that's fascinating. It's way more interesting than you would have it be understood than when you're like watching movies in the 90s and you're like, oh, this is the city of dreams. Like I don't dispense with all that. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in like the nastiness of the city and this movie is all about that.

13:22Andy Greenwald:It's really, oh, go ahead. No, just worth noting because Curtis Hanson is from here and I feel like you could, he's not as interested in the narratives or presenting it a certain way. He's just like, well, yeah, this is also a place. there's something kind of melancholic about watching this and watching boogie nights because i think they're both you know obviously period pieces made in the 90s about earlier eras of los angeles and one thing la had i think even up to maybe the point where we moved here was still those bones were still there like you could still probably shoot the outside of the formosa and not have a target next to it right and now that it's kind of i think fully changed i think you can still find it in different neighborhoods.

14:01But it's wild watching this movie and thinking about how little they must have had to do when it came to Hollywood.

14:07Bill Simmons:Yeah, in the 90s. Because if you're shooting Hollywood in the 90s, it doesn't look that much different than Swingers, you know?

14:12Andy Greenwald:It's 45 years between when the movie is set and when they filmed it, and it's 30 years.

14:16Bill Simmons:30 years since they made it. One of the great themes that we've talked about in other Rewatchables episodes about LA that everybody comes here wide-eyed with a dream, right? And sometimes it really works out. sometimes it kind of works out but multiple characters say this in the movie like kim basinger says at one point like i basically says i didn't obviously come here to do this but it's kind of she's still ended up right some people try it try it try it and they leave and we knew you know i'm older than you guys but we had a bunch of people that when my kids were younger that kid people the parents in schools and one guy's trying to be an actor another person's trying to be a director and eventually it just doesn't work out you you moved here for a job and show business.

14:59Bill Simmons:Right. I moved here to write for a TV show. But this is kind of how it goes. And sometimes the city chews you up. I mean, the corruption stuff, which I think we've seen in the last 30 years, has morphed into different, more public versions of this. But that underbelly of what was going on, that was always part of the romance of LA. Like, right? Like, it's like, it could make you, it could break you, you could be found dead. You don't know who the good guys and the bad guys are. Yeah, a lot of people who don't want to know how the sausage is made. Godfather, Jack Waltz. That's right. Cartoon. Listen to me, my crumb-made friend.

15:34Jack would have been great in this movie. You could have easily

15:37Bill Simmons:thrown him in. But, there were two quotes in here. One was, life is good in Los Angeles, it's paradise on earth, that's what they tell you anyway. DeVito says the beginning. And then, how can organized crime exist in a city with the best police force in the world? Which seems to be, you're big on these Elroy books, but this seemed to be a huge theme in these LA books and the 40s, 50s, 60s. Yeah, so he writes this quartet of novels, the L.A. Quartet. Black Dahlia, Big Nowhere, which is my favorite, L.A. Confidential, and then White Jazz. And, like, they kind of get increasingly Byzantine and hallucinatory as he goes on.

16:12And he would later take on the Kennedy assassination, one of your pet projects. You just recently talked about that. Wait a second.

16:19Bill Simmons:Yeah, and they try... We saw the Kennedy assassination. No kidding. Wow, congrats. That's great.

16:25Sean Fennessey:Are you going to visit the White House? What's going to happen next? No, it's done. Yeah, they don't even need me. Yeah, they don't need him. He basically tries to write a secret history of Los Angeles in these novels. And some of them are fictionalized versions of real characters. So in the novel of L.A. Confidential, a lot of stuff is happening at what is basically Disneyland. Yeah. But is not in this adaptation. I think one of the things that really, really struck me about watching this and refreshing myself with the novel is it is an incredible adaptation. it's an incredibly brave adaptation but it's also like two guys Brian Helglund and Hanson sitting down and just drilling like what is this movie going to be about and every scene needs to be about one of the three cops and hopefully

17:13Bill Simmons:so initially it was eight right and they narrowed it down to three it's got like eight characters so many characters so many different spinning out

17:20Andy Greenwald:and it spreads over eight years right it's like a much broader canvas it's three years in this movie and more real people

17:25Sean Fennessey:in the book than are in the movie as well The movie is trying to balance the truth of Hollywood versus this created world. It's an incredible book that I voraciously read right before the movie came out and was kind of shocked by how different it is. But it has this really readable but also awkward style where it's all staccato. The writing is five-word sentences over and over and over and over again. so you almost like can feel the words coming out of the typewriter as you're reading it. It's a very unusual and it's different from his other books. His other books are not like that as much. I feel like they're a little bit...

18:02White Jazz is a little bit... It's like weird. The movie is way closer to the way like Robert Town writes in Chinatown than it is Elroy's novel. But the scenes are short in this film for the most part. And I feel like that replicates the feeling of page turning. Like where you're like, I just got to keep going. but you're right I mean his Elroy's authorial voice is you can't replicate that on screen without extensive voiceover

18:30Andy Greenwald:but can you think of another example of an adaptation that is respected on both sides of the aisle like the way this is because I think people who love the book understand that it's a different beast and respect how well it's made Midvis and Cruisin are the only two

18:44Sean Fennessey:was Cruisin a book? I think it was a book right? it was a novel I've got it in my bag wow yeah you've got it memorized Andy's trying to adapt it right now. You want to be on the re-cruising? They're going to cruise again.

18:58Bill Simmons:Andy wasn't with us on the cruise. Andy, have you ever... You're a guy who's written some scripts from time to time for the last, I don't know, nine, eight, nine, ten years. Have you ever tried to adapt a book? Yes. How hard is it? What are the things we don't know?

19:13Andy Greenwald:Well, it's very hard. I think the hardest thing is the fidelity issue. Like when I did Briarpatch, I basically just took the characters and the plot and changed everything because, A, it's not a beloved, I mean, I love it, but it's not a very well-known book. So you have that liberty to do it. But I think the most important thing is when adapting anything is that you have to, as the adapter, try not to be too precious about what you know other people love and zero in on what you love. Because the enthusiasm is the one thing that you can carry from the book to the screen. And I think that that's what these guys did to a degree that is almost unprecedented.

19:48Andy Greenwald:When you see, when you watch Curtis Hanson, like on Charlie Rose from promoting the movie 30 years ago. And he brings the same like pitch that he brought to Arnon Milchan and the producers to Charlie Rose where he's like, here are six images that I found about coming to Los Angeles in the 50s that remind me of a place that I grew up in that is no longer, that no longer exists. And I showed him a picture of Aldo Ray. And I thought about how I love these characters, even though I hate them. And those were the pillars of his adaptation. and for whatever reason, maybe it's ego or whatever, he felt comfortable throwing everything else away.

20:22Yeah, I think that if, if I were trying to adapt a James Ellroy book, I would just completely lose myself being like, well, we can't have this without this. We can't have this without the Disney character. We can't have this without Inez being a bigger character. It's like a metastasized tumor.

20:37Andy Greenwald:Everything touches everything. And these guys are just like, no, we're fucking screenwriters. And we need to make every single scene go into the next one and every action has a consequence and every single thing needs to be about the theme of these guys. And it's just a really, really impressive piece of work in that way.

20:52Sean Fennessey:I think it's notable that of the L.A. Quartet, only two of the books have been made into movies and the other one is a really bad De Palma movie. And the other, I always wanted to see White Jazz. And Clooney wanted to make White Jazz for the longest time. And you heard about like Smokehouse's making White Jazz for like five years. And it never happened. And that book is so cool and fascinating. It's about like a cop who is also a hitman for the mob. and then he has this like kind of confrontation with himself over how the city really works and he's also really hot for his sister. Ancestuous. Crazy book.

21:24Sean Fennessey:See, they never have, but they're just, they're really hard to do so I think Andy's right on. Like, this is an amazing way of like kind of calling something that's very big, like a 500-page novel down to two hours and 10 minutes. Yeah. It's just like there is a central mystery that we are going to solve.

21:38Andy Greenwald:It's ruthlessly efficient too. I feel like I know, you probably all noticed it when we were re-watching it, like looking for a scene, looking for something to either make a joke about or point out, and it just rolls, almost to the point of you just get lost in it, and I stopped taking notes both times watching it. Yeah, there's some stuff that I'm like, this wasn't as electric as I remembered, but there's nothing where I'm like, you could just lose this, really.

21:59Bill Simmons:Yeah, it's a structurally almost perfect movie, I noticed. I watched it two times in the last video. I was like, man, they're just, this is like a big-ass bone-in filet. It's like no fat at all. Yep. Just zooming through it. I think if I adapted, I would be more in the Kubrick, camp, like, kind of like, fuck this guy with the writer. I'm gonna get some moon landing stuff in here. And I almost think if the author's mad at you when the movie comes out, maybe that's where you want to be. Yeah, but there's a difference between, like, the guy who writes Eyes Wide Shut, who's, like, you know, dead, and, like, James Elroy going around being like, this is a fucking turkey.

22:36These guys are communists.

22:38Sean Fennessey:Kubrick does the same thing that Andy is talking about, though, which is, like, he just picks what he likes. Like, in Lolita, he's just like, this is so funny to me. And I'm going to make this like a broad comedy about a 45-year-old man who wants to fuck a teenager. And that's, you know, there's a comic aspect of Lolita, but it's not Peter Sellers doing bits, you know? Yeah, that's true. So I think it's like, it's kind of brave, but also I think there's some like industrial design to the way that Curtis Hansen did it too, where he was just like, studios don't want to make period pieces. They don't want to make noir movies because they never make any money.

23:08Sean Fennessey:I'm not going to shoot this in black and white. Like every choice I make is going to be so this movie can get made, so that it can be commercially successful and that I can also make something that I think is artistically interesting. It's a pretty slick move by an old studio directing hand. His run here where it's like Hand the Rocks the Cradle, River Wild, this, and then Wonder Boys in Eight Mile kind of like culminating after that.

23:28Andy Greenwald:Just a tour de force. In her shoes erasure. In her shoes, right? Not at this table. But it's kind of like the dark twin of Ron Howard. You know what I mean? Like that incredibly safe pair of hands. Save that for your

23:39Bill Simmons:one-man show. That's a good one. Dark twin of Ron Howard. Yeah. it is I, John Howard. What if the Apollo 13 crashed? Anyway, he's just like this incredibly professional, like maybe there's nothing in this that's like super flashy, like holy shit, Scorsese camera move or something you've never seen before, but all of the jigsaw pieces wind up coming together.

24:09Andy Greenwald:That's the thing when I was watching it. There is no, even some of the questions that I know were categories we're going to get through about if it could be improved in certain ways. Like, every single piece of this movie is in service to the movie. It is the type of, like, buttoned-up, industry-forward professionalism that we do not do anymore. It kind of reminds me of Apollo 13 in that way, where it's just like, oh, you're watching it, and it's like, oh, man, and then this, and then this, and then this. And there's no ego, and, like, Dante Spinati's like, yeah, I know how to shoot this. And Jerry Goldsmith is like, I get it.

24:34Andy Greenwald:I'm already 75. It's a bunch of grown-ups. I've been 75 forever.

24:36Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's just a bunch of grown-ups who are like, We got a really good idea for a movie. This is how we're going to do it.

24:39Andy Greenwald:Let's make the picture. Yeah.

24:40Bill Simmons:Well, he did the opening credits. Wasn't that part of his pitch? Yeah. He had all the postcards. That was like literally how he made the movie. Yeah. Hand That Rocks to Cradle is a great example. That movie's been made 17 ,000 times. It's being made now. You could go on Netflix and probably find five of them right now. They make them on Lifetime every week. And for some reason, that's probably the best one of all of them. Except for maybe Fatal Attraction. We're doing it. We're saving it for From Hell Month. it's just so well done but what's the movie it's like Nanny's mad at the family and she's just getting her revenge like that's every lifetime movie for some reason that's the best one

25:16Sean Fennessey:it is I popped it in last night after watching LA Compotential just to be like what was Hanson's style to your point like trying to figure out what is it that he does like with the camera how the movies look the colors of the movie and it's a totally different looking movie totally different feeling movie but even though it is a bonker script do you remember the premise of The Hand That Rocks the Cradle where it's like a woman is assaulted by her OBGYN and she blows the whistle on him. She goes public on him and then he kills himself and his wife, his widow, then gets a job as the nanny and then seeks revenge.

25:49Andy Greenwald:That's the Mornay's part.

25:50Sean Fennessey:So it's like, it's a nutty lifetime movie. And the only person who's on tour

25:53Bill Simmons:is the special needs gardener. Yes, played by Ernie Hudson. Oh, that's right. I forgot about the gardener.

25:58Sean Fennessey:The movie's amazing. Julianne Moore's in it. She's murdered in it. Yeah, it's a bizarre movie.

26:02Bill Simmons:Julianne Moore's Hall of Fame smoking performance CR. just smoke burring from everything.

26:09Sean Fennessey:But it is like, the ideas in it are lifetime movie level. You know, like it is really dopey in a lot of ways. But it looks so great and it feels so professional.

26:19Andy Greenwald:And you watch these interviews with Curtis Hanson and his heroes and some people he actually interviewed because he started as a journalist visiting sets as he talks about like Howard Hawks, Sam Fuller. And it's just like the thing is the thing. And speaking of great shows where people talked around a wooden table, I did watch this Charlie Rose interview and he's like, well, Charlie, you know, Every movie has a simple concept behind it. You should just say it in a line, you know? And he's like, so he asks about Hand that Rocks the Cradle. And he goes, every movie has a simple concept. Charlie leans in and goes, is it the hand rocking the cradle?

26:48Andy Greenwald:And he goes, no, it's just be careful who you trust when you turn around. But the intellectualism on display. A patented rose charm. Who was rocking that cradle? Your OBGYN kills himself and you say what?

27:02Bill Simmons:Maybe that could be a new CR character. Charlie? I've tried him out before. What is LA confidential in a sentence?

27:10Andy Greenwald:City of angels is full of devils. Yeah. Right? Sounds good.

27:15Sean Fennessey:There's a good line in it. I think it's Jack Vincenzo who says, everybody wants something. This is a real everybody wants something.

27:22Bill Simmons:I wrote down some themes, including tabloid culture, still prevalent. Yeah. Police brutality, haven't gotten rid of that yet. Racism, still exists. Good and evil, sure. Seductive and beautiful LA that's here to steal your soul still exists. How about using blackmail against the rich and powerful to advance your political and financial interests?

27:43Andy Greenwald:No, no, that's a bridge too far.

27:46Sean Fennessey:What else? Anything? I think it's a really good movie about the real and the fake and how they coexist in this city very comfortably. That, like, you can see Michael Jackson having a dance-off with Spider-Man on the streets of Los Angeles, and that feels normal. That you can step on the walks of fame, and that feels normal. That you can walk past the Chinese theater, that you can go up to Beverly Hills and look at homes You can go on tours of people's homes in the city. And also, you know, there's like a lot of crime and there's a lot of sadness and poverty and terrible things happening in the city on a daily basis.

28:16Sean Fennessey:And like they all are just kind of coexisting in a way that is very unusual even by Metropolis standards.

28:21Andy Greenwald:But to that point, maybe, and well, I'm sure we'll talk about it later, but maybe the most important scene in the movie is the scene when Exley insults the real Lana Turner who is actually dating a real gangster, all of which was true. John Stampanato and Lana Turner were dating.

28:34Bill Simmons:By the way, that was its own movie. Incredible. You could have just detoured into a separate Stompanato movie. I don't think they ever made it successfully. They never made it because of her daughter, right? Yeah. Her daughter. Murdered Johnny Stompanato.

28:46Sean Fennessey:Are you worried about spoiler alert there on the murder of Johnny Stompanato?

28:50Bill Simmons:Yeah, don't worry about that, Sierra. What you said, though, when I moved out here to work for Jimmy's show and we were right in Holly Boulevard and would go out to get coffee and Spider-Man and Superman were doing it, and it took me six months to get used to it, how weird everything was. the man theater where the premieres happen, the stars, just the weirdness. But you do get used to it. You do. And I don't know what, for everybody, it's different. For me, it was like six months in, I wouldn't blink. I think that I start every single day here the same way, which is like, it's too bright, it's too hot.

29:19And then I get to 6 p.m. and everything turns purple and it's the perfect temperature. And you're like, oh, I'm never leaving. You know, it's like, it's that kind of weird, like you can exist in heaven and hell at the same time sensation that Elroy writes about incessantly.

29:34Bill Simmons:Well, Greenwald mentioned the three types of police officers in this movie, aggressive rule breaker, star fucker, personality builder, and straight arrow idealist. And they do a great job within 20 minutes of like, okay, I get your type. I get you, I get you. Cromwell, hmm, what's he up to? And it's just, we're off. Well, the genius move that they pull is that they all have to go before the police commissioner and respond to the same question, which is, are you going to rat on your friends? Right. and actually says yes Jack says maybe and Bud says fuck no.

30:05Sean Fennessey:One of the ingenious ideas of the book that is also really well preserved in the movie is that like those three characters are three very clear male archetypes post-World War II. Right? There's like the G.I. Bill college boy there's the World War II grunt right? Who's in the trenches who's like all muscle and then there's like the very cynical like I just want to get what's best for me person in the 50s is trying to kind of get fat as he heads into the second half of his life and those are like Those set up, I think, kind of an archetype of masculinity over the next 75 years in America that are really smart.

30:37And the idea of using them as like this triangle

30:41Sean Fennessey:of trying to solve something together is really, really fascinating. You know, they kind of do represent like one person ultimately. They kind of feel like the totality of a guy living in a city.

30:49Andy Greenwald:Well, so each one of them during the course of the movie tries to overcome the limitations that they realize they have placed on themselves. Like Bud's whole thing is that he's not smart enough to do it until someone tells him that he is. and then Xley becomes shotgun in. Yeah, they all want to be the thing that they are not. Like, Xley wants to be his dad. Jack wants to be thought of as moral even though he knows he's not. And Bud wants to be smart even though he's strong.

31:10Bill Simmons:Don't forget all the call girls who want to be various stars. They get cut. They get cut. They get cut to look like Veronica Lake.

31:17Sean Fennessey:If you could be cut to look like anyone, who would you be cut to look like? Chandler Bing. That's perfect.

31:24Bill Simmons:Rolo Tomasi. Yeah. One of the great stealth plot ideas of all time. Because I was thinking like, they're the big ideas. Like, ironically, Spacey, Kaiser, Soze. Awesome. Oh, holy shit. What's in the box? Again, Spacey. You know, the Sixth Sense. We all know like the huge ones. The stealth, I don't know what this is. And then it reveals itself in a very small way. But you're like, oh. It's way up there. I don't even know what it's competing against. The invention. The Rolo Tomasi idea is Hanson and Hegel coming up with themselves.

32:02Andy Greenwald:There's such, there's elegance and efficiency in play throughout the entire movie because you were thinking about these different archetypes. The movie does, I think people can watch this movie and be a little confused the first time potentially. It doesn't really hold your hand and yet if you watch it again you realize that it does do the chyron of the characters' names. It does show Susan Leffert's face when we first met her to remind you. It nudges you and then when you get to something like Rolo Tomasi you can imagine Helgeland and Hanson for months beating their heads against the wall being like how can we combine these moments how can we educate the characters with something that is clever with something that gets us along the track fast

32:38Bill Simmons:you couldn't have called it John Malone like the Rolo Tomasi was really smart it's a memorable thing my son I watched it with my son he missed it he didn't because well it's the two and then when Cromwell says it to them you really have to be paying attention to Pierce's face so I don't think he totally got it and Pierce does such a great job in that scene which is he does a lot of jawbone yeah but it's like that's the way Xley usually looks so Dudley wouldn't pick up on Xley looking like he has to take a shit anyway like it's always kind of how he looks his eyes are doing Craig did you had you seen this movie before?

33:12Bill Simmons:no was it hard to follow and did you get the Rolo Tomasi? I did get the Rolo Tomasi but to Andy's point I had trouble sometimes there are so many last names just being thrown around throughout the entire movie that I had to kind of stop and almost like go to another tab and be like, wait, which one has this last name? That part was harder, but I did catch Rolo Tomas. Okay. It's funny. It's like there's two things that jump out at me when I watch it. One is that Buzz Meeks is one of the main characters of the previous novel. So like his life and death in this book is much more significant kind of.

33:45And then the heroine, which kind of is a runner throughout the plot of like somebody stole the heroine from Mickey Cullen and it's like that is a major animating factor in the book and it kind of gets yada yada'd at the end of the movie I think it's

34:00Sean Fennessey:he's never said it but I think it's one of the reasons why Elroy is very hot and cold on the movie is because it cuts out that part of it which he's that's like the way the drugs started running through the city is a big theme of all of his novels and the movie is not really super interested in that yeah

34:14Andy Greenwald:same thing with the freeway yeah it's like the sort of the actual spine of what was changing and how it was going to be changed is kind of yada yada'd

34:22Bill Simmons:yeah Do you miss heroin as a big plot in a movie? Feels like we're not getting it as much lately.

34:28Sean Fennessey:Well, I mean, we live in a time where, you know, like a different kind of drug, I think, dominates these kinds of movies too. Like opioids is really, yeah, it's just a different thing. But like I remember vividly talking to my dad when he was literally on a heroin task force for years and then they like kind of paused that and shifted their focus onto more fentanyl-related cases when he was working because everything in this country changed. It doesn't mean heroin is gone, but it just doesn't hold the seat. This is the rise of heroin. You know, like this is the rise of, you know.

34:56Bill Simmons:Coming up next on First Take, heroin or fentanyl? What's a better movie drug?

35:01Andy Greenwald:What Sean was saying, Chris, it's like the rise of Skywalker. Yeah, that makes sense.

35:06Bill Simmons:You mentioned the screenplay and how it came from the 1990 James Elroy novel

35:16Bill Simmons:where basically Hansen said, he was talking about the apparently golden era of the 20s and 30s, which had been basically bulldozed. I was trying to think of other movies and TV shows that kind of hit that a little bit. Mad Men, when they went to LA, which I can't remember. I haven't, I got to rewatch. Mad Men's my next sauna show after I'm done with Thrones. Your Instagram followers. After I get out of the 1300s and go to the 1960s.

35:43Bill Simmons:But Mad Men was in LA almost for the whole season, right? And didn't it tap into this? I'm remembering vaguely.

35:50Andy Greenwald:He would go occasionally, and then one season Pete is living out here, and it was the only time they could ever do exteriors because they shot L.A. for New York the rest of the time, which kind of helped the show because it was kind of hermetically sealed. But I think it definitely captured the sense, still the boom times of being out here, that this was a place where everything worked and was golden and verdant and full of possibilities and opportunities and sunshine.

36:15Bill Simmons:Well, and pre-sports, because the Dodgers come late 50s and so do the Lakers, right? And then the Angels come and then all of a sudden it's like, LA, here we go. Pre-Wally Joyner.

36:29Andy Greenwald:But that idea that's in this movie too of like, we're selling it. We've decided on the dream we're going to sell people, but we had to create this too. This is, I mean, Sean's beloved Babylon is also about this.

36:39Sean Fennessey:It is. That's probably the best representation of that period of time that this movie is kind of reacting to. It's a TV movie? Nope. It was a feature film directed by Damien Chazelle starring Brad Pitt, Margot Robbie. Came out in the theaters? Yep. Good film. I'll look for it.

36:55Andy Greenwald:But you could also make the point, I think this is something that Curtis Hansen did as well when he was pitching it around, that most noirs that we think of as classics are set in like the 30s and 40s, which was psychologically and physically a different time in America. Fashion was different. Intentionally. And the only 40s in this movie is Veronica Lake. then that's intentionally she's as we say cut to look like that um everything else is just an abundant optimistic time and this is still the underbelly of it so hansen held a mini film

37:24Bill Simmons:festival for the people in the movie and showed them the bad and the beautiful in a lonely place don siegel's the lineup private health 36 and kiss me deadly i don't know if sean had any thoughts i haven't read your substack today i ask you i don't know if you covered those Would the most fun part about directing a film be like programming the pre-film festival? The film festival for the cast?

37:46Sean Fennessey:That would underline the fact that I don't know how to make films, but I do know how to program a festival of old movies. We brought in Sean Fennessey for our film festival.

37:55Bill Simmons:Did you have any thoughts on those five?

37:57Sean Fennessey:I've seen all the movies and I love all of them. I think Don Siegel is like, I don't know if you mentioned him, is like a director that Hanson really likes, but that's clearly a, you know, kind of a for hire guy who can work in a lot of different sorts of dramas, but is really good about, like, guy with a gun. Guy with a gun who's on a mission, who's got a problem to solve. A lot of his movies are like that. And then the killing the Kubrick movie is really interesting, because there's a lot, apparently, of Sterling Hayden's character in that movie in the Bud White performance that Russell Crowe looked at him.

38:27Andy Greenwald:Yeah, because also Sterling Hayden was physically... Didn't Elroy say this, that he wanted... That Sterling Hayden was his choice to play Bud White? Oh, interesting. Because he was physically a big actor. In the book, he's like the Incredible Hulk. Yeah, he's the biggest guy in L.A. in the book. Crow looks pretty jacked in this movie. Yeah, but there's a couple of shots where you're like, he's like a little bit taller than Danny DeVito. How tall do we think Crow is? He's listed at six. I looked it up.

38:50Bill Simmons:Is this like a Major League Baseball thing? I think he's like an Iverson. He's a 5 '10". Got a couple inches in the telling. The Major League Baseball Heights thing has been my favorite subplot. It's funny. Gavin Lux lost three inches. Did he? He went from 6 '1 to 5 '10". What? Yeah, because they're measuring all these dudes for the strike zone. Oh. A lot of height lying going on. Wait, so everybody gets to know this? This is an amazing story. I got Billy Gill come on and do the whole breakdown of this. There's been a lot of height lying. We're going to take a quick break, and then I want to talk about the actors.

39:21Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You've been there settling in for a relaxing evening of TV. You waste half the night scrolling through options. Can't really find anything to watch. Well, enter Fire TV. It's entertainment with zero effort required. Fire TV serves up personalized recommendations from across all your apps, all in one place. It's your helper. Not sure what to watch next? Just tell Alexa Plus what you're in the mood for. She'll pull up the perfect recommendation. Problem solved. Stop the scroll. Start the show. Find what you're looking for with Fire TV. Subscription may be required.

39:58Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US-based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. The actors, Russell Crowe. So I know this movie got nine nominations, but I look at it as like the starter kit for Proof of Life?

40:37Bill Simmons:This movie walked so Proof of Life could run? Yeah. I don't know. Was that part of CRM for you? Absolutely went into the math, yeah. Stuff of Legends? Stuff of Legends. But you can see it. You can see where the next 10 years are going. Like, he's just a movie star in this movie. I tell you, Caruso could have done LA Confidential. So I had that in... Can I do that now? Wow. He would have been good. I had this in my recasting couch. what about him in the DeVito spot no not Sid listen

41:06Sean Fennessey:no I think Vincennes I think he would have been a really interesting Vincennes I think I mean he's a little younger a little younger but I mean he can do XC but he's not

41:16Bill Simmons:CR is alive right now look at CR because I'm trying to think of like what I like Caruso at that time is this pre or post NYPD this is post NYPD okay post J so Stensland pre post J pre CSI pre Proof Live yeah available Jack would have been a good one it kind of fits the book a little bit more I mean Jack's a little like washed in the book and in the movie it's like boy he could he's basically like the double for the guy he's like D. Martin yeah but Crow perfect Guy Pearce we mentioned the Bale thing I think that's a great comparison I think this is Bale they're making this movie in 07 and it's clearly Bale is is Exley 2005 ranch

41:58Sean Fennessey:because you got to admit you gotta admit intelligence for sure and that kind of posture right that stiff posture but then there's like he's got some stuff going on you know he doesn't grab Lynn Bracken lightly he grabs her no and also

42:13Andy Greenwald:there's the scene that I really caught on rewatches when the cameras show up outside the night owl and Dudley like puts his hat on and actually kind of flexes he does what did Wesley call Sicario he does the gym flex the gym selfie the gym selfie

42:27Bill Simmons:of a performance in that moment And then Spacey, who from 95 to 99 rips off Usual Suspects, Seven, Outbreak, Time to Kill, LA Confidential, American Beauty, and wins two Oscars. Yeah. And he's really good in this movie. And now it's like Kevin Spacey, problematic, to say the least. I think even to Guy Pearce, especially. Yeah. He's just a really good actor.

42:54Sean Fennessey:I think this is his best performance.

42:56Bill Simmons:I'm with you.

42:57Sean Fennessey:I thought that would be on an island with that. I think he's been more iconic, obviously, as villains in movies and more memorable in certain movies. But given that he's on screen for 25 minutes and is doing a lot of acting with his face and not with his words. That's like some of my favorite lines and line readings in the movie.

43:17Bill Simmons:Also, a classic Spacey performance where it's like, is this guy straight or gay? Is this guy a good guy or a bad guy? Is this guy funny or not funny? The layers to the scene with Matt Reynolds where he's like, yeah, show business. Even like when he's talking to Exley, it's like, is he flirting with this guy or is he just talking to him? Like there's, it's always, he's like that last level of actor where he's playing it where you're trying to figure out what he's up to in the scenes. And that was with House of Cards. He's basically playing this guy as an older House of Cards as a senator.

43:49Andy Greenwald:And everything about the role is performance, which increasingly as he got more rewarded for his performances, that became what he did. is he was doing shtick most of the time. Yeah, I don't feel like this was shtick at all. There's a moment that I, one of my favorite moments in the movie, this really small moment, is after they've told the boxer that they're going to help his brother get freed and they go back to the car and the guy's like, you're going to come see me, right? You're going to go talk about it. And Spacey just has the cigarette in his mouth and he goes, keep it up. Keep it up. And it's like, it's such a perfectly choreographed bit that fits the character because the character is always looking for the moment to camera because that's what he admires most.

44:23Sean Fennessey:There's a really great Elroy quote about Spacey. that I think kind of sums up both his performance and also kind of how we understand him as a public person and even some of the thorniness without actually coming out and saying anything specific where he says, Spacey is so deft, he is so controlled, is so subtle, is so good at suggesting a character's inner life with a minimal of outward action. He glides. There's something amorphous about the guy. I met him a couple of times. I don't have any kind of rapport with him, you know. I like him well enough. He's not a bad guy, but there's a mask that's up when you meet him personally.

44:54Sean Fennessey:And I imagine that this helps him when he immerses himself. It's a deep immersion performance. Some of the best self-loathing I've ever seen on screen. Yeah, like I'll, I still think that, well, this will come up in other parts of the pod, but like the, him coming across Matt's body and like the wordless kind of like, funeral he has for Matt, but like kind of also himself as he like slides down is like, that's really, really good shit. You know, like that's,

45:19Bill Simmons:that's. The problem with his career, which was, I mean, that run was incredible. He could never, Remember he made that terrible movie, Pay It Forward? Oh, yeah.

45:29Sean Fennessey:Tough one.

45:29Bill Simmons:He could never just be a normal person. He couldn't be like, Kevin Spacey is now a high school teacher with a heart of gold. He always had to play these mysterious guys. And I got to be honest, I think he's like a one-on-one. I don't think he exists anymore. This was like a specific type of actor who kind of knew what the perfect Kevin Spacey role was. And I don't know who's filled that void since. I don't think we've found the person.

45:54Sean Fennessey:I think that kind of character forward, mainstream American drama just doesn't really happen that much anymore. He did actually pivot to television because he was kind of an actor who would really thrive in that space. But, you know, when you go back and look at the movies and the parts that he took on, it's not unreasonable to be like, there's kind of a red arrow pointing at the unseemliness of this person. Sure, right. And almost the industry telling you by how they're casting him, like what they think of him, that is really fascinating. And what's so weird is

46:20Andy Greenwald:I remember at the time when he was at his Apex, he was always talking about how Jack Lemmon was his hero. Yes, that's right. He assessed the Jack Lemmon. And the thing about Jack Lemmon was that everyone loved Jack Lemmon. Yes. He played in Everyman, whether it's The Apartment or Grumpy Old Men. You're like, I like that guy. So warm. Yeah, Kevin Spacey and The Odd Couple,

46:36Bill Simmons:you would have been like, is he going to kill Oscar? Yes, it's absolutely a horror film. I think the closest he gets to like Lemmon, Lemmon is like, in a way, like the Margin Call performance where he's kind of more like Shelly and Glengarry and doing that kind of hang on.

46:49Andy Greenwald:Which he can do. But he's kind of an outlier. He's right. Like, there's a lot of Kevin Spacey performances. You'd be like, so you picked him to be the guy in Seven. Interesting. Yeah. No, it's true. He's the kind of guy who cut his fingerprints off. Interesting. What's probably worth restating for the younger audience is that he was the star. He was the top-billed star of this movie. And that, speaking of professionalism, with Curtis Hansen, what he could do and what he couldn't do, he was like, my deal breaker is I want unknowns. And we'll get to that in terms of these other cops so they don't have a predisposition about them.

47:20Andy Greenwald:For Dudley, I want someone that everyone thinks is the farmer in Babe so that everyone will like him. So we'll do that misdirect. And then we'll have a movie star play Jack Vincennes and he got Kevin Spacey. He said he tried to get him

47:31Sean Fennessey:to make it before he won for Usual Suspects. And it was winning the Oscar as I think one of the big reasons why this movie got to go. Because it wasn't going to go just with Pierce and Crowe.

47:40Bill Simmons:It was just a certain type of part and he was the best at it. But if you put him in like the ref as like the husband, that's, it's just not going to work. Kim Basinger, there's two separate conversations here. Conversation number one, CR, the Catherine Trammell, would you throw your life away for this obvious stay away award? Pretty solid, pretty solid choice. It's pretty, it's, she's operating at a high level, but the Oscar. Well, that's the second conversation. She wins supporting actress. And if you were saying, hey, if you knew nothing, who won the Oscar? Would have been like a, kind of a fourth round pick from this movie

48:17Andy Greenwald:maybe like the ninth pick

48:18Bill Simmons:if we did a draft from this cast from this cast cinematography director oh yeah adaption you pick any category you do Julianne Moore I personally would put Bridget Fonda and Jackie Brown

48:29Andy Greenwald:also this was the year you were whipping votes for Gloria Stewart that's right I heard she was quite difficult to work with

48:34Bill Simmons:I deep died that Oscars year but before we do Craig did you were you surprised she won the Oscar for this shocked I mean I would have given her a Razzie I think she's probably the only character in the movie where I'm like, this takes me out of it a little bit.

48:48Sean Fennessey:I think it is like among the more bizarre wins in recent Oscar history. I don't think she's bad. Yeah, I think the Oscar screws up our perception of the performance. I think if she didn't win the Oscar, you'd be like, she looks enough like Veronica Lake that this is interesting.

49:05Bill Simmons:She's the same character as the natural in the lady that seduces Redford. It's no different. But the Oscar is just like, she has four scenes. They're fine. in the same apartment wearing the same gown having the same conversation first of all that's a lovely house

49:18Andy Greenwald:in Hancock Park which I think we need to recognize we have a whole place to talk about that can't wait I was confident that was coming up but I think that like Hanson is really good with actors and is very fond of actors and he gives her opportunities to show more variety than she had been given in a lot of other parts and certainly even what this part would suggest like there's the moment when they're in the theater watching Roman Holiday and Bud whispered something to her and she's a little playful and throws popcorn at him. So he's giving her a chance to succeed. But my question, Sean, as the local Oscar expert, I feel like Oscars like to do this thing where it's like we're rooting for this person who got a chance to show us something.

49:57Andy Greenwald:And it's time to reward them as the next phase of their career begins. And except there wasn't really a next phase for her.

50:03Sean Fennessey:Is there a precedent for that? Usually it's when someone has made like 10 or 15 all-time beloved classics or they've been a part of like something really special about movie history. and Kim Basinger is a beautiful star and a good actor, but like, what are her five best performances? What are the unforgettable moments in Kim Basinger movie history? You know, she's Vicki Vale. You know, she was a Bond girl. I was going to say Nine and a Half. She's in Nine and a Half Weeks, you know, which is like a good erotic thriller.

50:30Bill Simmons:It's an intense movie. Craig, you should watch that with Liz tonight. Nine and a Half Weeks. It's rom-com. Check it out.

50:35Sean Fennessey:I think you're right. It almost seemed to be like, okay, well, we can't wait to see what you do next, but usually when they give someone like this an award, it's someone like Amy Madigan, right who's like in their 60s or 70s and they can't wait we gotta go through this

50:47Bill Simmons:I deep dove this so she beats Joan Cusack in In-N-Out wild nomination good performance

50:52Sean Fennessey:I think she's good in that movie she's very good she plays the wife of a man who is gay who like isn't coming out but is coming out and it's like who's the star of that Kevin Kline

51:00Andy Greenwald:how's that movie aged?

51:02Sean Fennessey:I haven't seen it in a long time it did shoot in Northport which is the town next to me and when it was shooting it was like Frank Oz and Kevin Kline are making a movie next door and it seemed like a big deal you don't think

51:10Andy Greenwald:Tom Selleck was the big name at that moment?

51:12Sean Fennessey:That was great casting, I thought.

51:13Andy Greenwald:We'll do the rewatchables for AG month.

51:16Bill Simmons:Mini Driver and Good Will Hunting? Sure. I don't think she should have won, but I thought she was good in that movie. Yes. I think she's excellent and I love her. Julianne Moore in Boogie Nights? I mean, this is... There's your winner. What the fuck are we doing? So fucked up. What are we doing? So fucked up. Like, we should just put a thousand people in a movie theater, show Boogie Nights and LA Confidential and be like, guess who won supporting it? it's just insane it's a good way of putting it it's a great idea I think that

51:46Sean Fennessey:should we do like the Jubilee like debate style thing with Gen Z kids but do it for Oscars history oh yeah this one isn't a debate

51:53Bill Simmons:like Julia Moore her job is 30 times harder in that movie yes I just think that movie had a little bit of a stigma it's porn 90s it was just it was on the edge it was had a lot of like acclaim for how but it was a young director but Lynn Bracken is also

52:09Sean Fennessey:a prostitute it's not as though So it's like... I know.

52:12Andy Greenwald:But is there... Can you look at this, Sean, and like see the gamesmanship involved? Because voters... Like do you think Gloria Stewart came in second?

52:19Bill Simmons:So Gloria Stewart was the fifth one from Titanic, the old lady. Who's still talking about Jack, who she spent a weekend with. Meanwhile, she has this whole fucking family. She's in like 80 seconds of the movie. I'd be so mad at my wife. Van and I talked about this on our watch show. I'd be so mad. That guy. We lived together for 60 years. You've had this fucking Jack. She spent 24 hours with him.

52:39Sean Fennessey:I don't think that's why Gloria Stewart was punished and humiliated at the Academy Awards when they gave Kim Basinger this Oscar.

52:44Andy Greenwald:But do you think that the thinking person's voter in this case voted for Kim Basinger because they knew LA Confidential wasn't going to win?

52:51Sean Fennessey:I'll tell you what I think happened. I watched a bunch of the making of documentaries that are on the Blu-ray for this movie. Is that physical media?

52:57Andy Greenwald:Physical media, yes.

52:58Sean Fennessey:It's a Blu-ray. Every single interview when they are asked about Kim Basinger are just like, she's just like the best person. She's just really cool. And Danny DeVito is like, you know, she just really cares about the work and she's like a really nice person. And there's none of this weird like talking around Kevin Spacey being a maniac stuff going on in the interview. Kevin, what he did after work, I can't say. Do you think Kevin got a,

53:21Bill Simmons:hey, Kevin's Kevin.

53:26Sean Fennessey:So, but when you go back and look at the year, she won BAFTA, she won SAG, she won the Globe, she won everything. She dominated the season. So, people just like her. There should have been Twitter back then because I think they would have like, been like, let's really interrogate this. Are we really going to do this? I guess so. I wrote down a couple more.

53:44Bill Simmons:Bridget Fonda and Jackie Brown. Heather Graham and Boogie Nights? Yeah, why not? Sure. Sigourney Weaver and Ice Storm. Yeah. Well, that's a good one. Parker Posey and Waiting for Guffman? Yes. Although the Oscars does do comedies. Yep. But I think you could make a case for all of those to at least predominate. Really strange year. This is a new game I'm playing with IMDb's when IMDb suggests the four movies you know the person from. What do you think IMDb says known for for James Cromwell? This is great. Babe, pig in the city. Eraser. You still have a named one. Not one? Really? Does TV count?

54:24Bill Simmons:Does it do TV? No, no.

54:26Sean Fennessey:It's four movies known for. Wow, this is my new favorite game. It's a great game.

54:30Bill Simmons:Sean's going to steal this.

54:32Sean Fennessey:I might. there's a couple of animated movies that he did voice performances were there any animated performances no LA Confidential's one

54:41Bill Simmons:Star Trek First Contact LA Confidential iRobot oh iRobot the Green Mile and the Longest Yard IMDB gave us for James Cromwell the Warden yeah and the remake that's right come on IMDB we gotta do give us a little how is Babe not in there that's not right Babe was in Goldman thought that was the best movie of 1993 or whatever year

55:02Sean Fennessey:not in the top four.

55:03Bill Simmons:Do you want to talk Cromwell for a second? Incredible run by him. Did you? I thought Succession was the exclamation point. It was a multiple exclamation point.

55:12Sean Fennessey:I'm seeing Big Hero 6 as number two. Maybe that's personal algorithm. I think that's algorithm. Yeah.

55:17Bill Simmons:I have that.

55:18Sean Fennessey:Oh, you're looking at Google. Sorry, I thought you were saying Letterboxd. Oh, no, I was doing IMDb. Oh, IMDb. Okay, got it. Cromwell, I assume when you watch this, you're probably like, when did you sort of feel like Dudley was not on the straight and narrow when you're watching L.A. Cox.

55:35Bill Simmons:I don't remember how I felt when I saw it in that theater. He is Satan across these four books. That's exactly what I was talking about. Did you know? No. Did you know he was the bad guy?

55:42Sean Fennessey:And I kind of didn't really until they basically told me. It was the only downside of reading the book beforehand, I thought, because the movie handles it so well.

55:50Bill Simmons:But the casting of him was so great, because this is like three, three and a half years after Babe. Yep. And in general, he was always like, oh, I like that guy. It was like when they flipped Ronnie Cox in the late 80s. Yeah. With RoboCop. Yeah. Like, oh, Ronnie Cox. Friendly face. It's like, nope.

56:06Sean Fennessey:I like flipping them. That's what they've done. Yeah, that's good. It's like a heel turn.

56:09Andy Greenwald:I can remember seeing this in the theater at age 20 and being shocked, having not read the books. I absolutely a memorable rug out from under me.

56:18Sean Fennessey:The way that they film Jack's death is really, really good. Like, it's really, really good. Addiction boy. Yeah.

56:25Andy Greenwald:He's really great in this. What do you think With the new Strike Zone How would Cromwell fare? I mean he's He's 6 '7 6 '8 Is he really that tall?

56:33Bill Simmons:It was the biggest flaw Of succession That him and Brian Cox Were brothers It couldn't even be In the same frame It was like a foot

56:37Andy Greenwald:A foot and

56:38Bill Simmons:A half taller than him You would need two

56:39Andy Greenwald:Brian Coxes to reach

56:40Bill Simmons:So nine Oscar nominations It won for Adapted And it won for Supporting Actress You know The best Actor in a supporting role That year Robin Williams Won for Good Will Hunting Robert Forrester For Jackie Brown

56:57Sean Fennessey:no slander please Anthony Hopkins

56:59Bill Simmons:and Amistad Greg Kinnear in As Good As It Gets is the weak one terrible that's like that tire's just wobbling in the back and then our guy Burt Reynolds in Boogie Nights no John C. Reilly I think Spacey it's kind of insane he wasn't nominated I think the only reason he wasn't nominated was because he won

57:19Sean Fennessey:I think so too and they were like

57:20Bill Simmons:fuck him

57:21Sean Fennessey:and two years later he wins again

57:22Bill Simmons:for American Beauty best actor we've talked about this year before it's a weird one where you have Peter Fonda's in there and Dustin Hoffman and Wag the Dog and you've ever seen Uli's Gold?

57:33Andy Greenwald:I have, yeah. Have you seen that? Is it, is Uli's, do you prefer Uli's Gold or Lorenzo's Oil when it comes to like ingredients you can get at Arrow 1? Such a deep premier magazine. They're very different films. Sure. Lorenzo's Oil

57:45Sean Fennessey:is a very traumatizing film about a family, a couple trying to find a cure for their child's illness. That is not a good thing. It's really a sad film. so Uli's Gold is about a beekeeper who's a kindly old man who's trying to make a connection with his family

57:58Bill Simmons:Andy likes to get a turmeric latte at Erwan with Lorenzo's oil I do just like a little bit some people get a cream top latte not me I think they could have named that movie a little bit better Lorenzo's oil because it makes it sound like it's like a land man you know it makes it sound like Book of Nights it's like it's the 80s we gotta start using

58:16Andy Greenwald:Lorenzo's oil they renamed Flirt of Lee Lorenzo's oil

58:19Bill Simmons:so if you had to say Crow for best actor Guy Pearce for supporting or Spacey for supporting and you can only give one nom

58:29Sean Fennessey:it feels like the rare actor actor for Pierce and Crow like two best actors yeah and that only happened a couple times right

58:36Bill Simmons:so who would you go with between Crow and Pierce Pierce

58:41Andy Greenwald:probably Pierce too yeah wait you'd give Pierce the Oscar nomination over Russell Crowe for this movie yeah I think that's the right call I also think Russell Crowe was gonna

58:50Bill Simmons:could have done both could have been like when we had two guards but I think it shows a little bit more that he is not American. Like I think his accent and his manner sometimes comes across as a little like I'm still on the set of virtuosity. I think Pierce is incredible. 138 minutes. Craig plus 38. There's just a lot of food on the plate. I don't think you could have, you couldn't make the same movie for an hour and 40 minutes. That's just like not possible. But this did feel a little long to me. Yeah. I did have a horrifying thought that you could have easily done this as a six episode drama.

59:27Bill Simmons:There's like specific cuts. You would need to have, if you were going to, please anybody. I was just thinking like, there is like natural like cliffhangers. I had the same thought. They've tried making this as a TV show. Nobody has their stomach.

59:39Sean Fennessey:Everybody just shut the fuck up about making this TV show. I'm just a TV show guy, but I don't want them to do it. This IP is off limits. Anybody to do Elroy, unless you've got this double show, like do Elroy. We have the evidence. They tried to make this TV show. twice it failed both times

59:53Andy Greenwald:perhaps what's a better way to do it to express this he's so sad he's an early confidential look what we used to be able to do like there are good point what this movie does with like ellipses with like just assuming you're gonna get there of condensing time of showing you the five most interesting moments in this character's journey is remarkable and I went into the I was reading the shooting script to see if there were like you know novelistic disquisitions about whatever 100 % no the things that got cut were like the two things that I have in my nitpicks of what I wish were in the movie. Like it started with the more stuff about the freeway.

1:00:28Andy Greenwald:Like it was just more context table setting stuff or you came into a scene a little bit before. Like I think it starts with Johnny Stompanato and Bud and Stensland. Johnny Stomps. So there's more of that. And the payoff in the movie where he's like, I don't need your 20 bucks. I'm not a rat anymore. The first scene is him accepting 20 bucks from Bud and sends them to be a ride.

1:00:48Sean Fennessey:But you don't need it. I think if you told me that the same way that this is a movie made by really, really gifted craftspeople and veteran filmmakers, if it was like, okay, Matthew Weiner or Vince Gilligan are taking on the works of James Elroy. I'm vetoing it. I'm at least more open to that, but if it's just like coming to CBS, Sunday nights, LA Confidential. I think if the movie...

1:01:12Bill Simmons:No, if the movie's at a certain level, I don't think you can do it. I think it's off limits. It's like they made a fucking Boogie Nights TV show. But obviously it is very, people are very tempted. Like Dahlia got made. They've wanted to make White Jazz. I think Big Nowhere would be incredible. Wouldn't the move be to just do, each season is a different Elroy, not when you just basically do that?

1:01:33Andy Greenwald:You Castle Rock, but Elroy.

1:01:35Sean Fennessey:It would be cool because of the way that all of the characters intersect. You know, famously or infamously, Dudley survives LA Confidential. And like Chris said, he kind of hovers over the trilogy, the quartet of books. And so if you had like one amazing, if you had like John Malkovich as Dudley Smith across four seasons of TV and it's 12 episodes each and they're each an adaptation of the novels and all the novels are long, that would be interesting. It just has to be like the most talented adapter of that kind of work in the world. And maybe it's Andy Green. Well, the other problem would be

1:02:04Bill Simmons:they'd be shooting it in Vancouver because we have a terrible mayor and a terrible governor and we can't shoot shit out of here because the whole film industry has gone to shit. We're going to take a break and come back. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. Spring is starting, so it's time to wake up your yard. And at The Home Depot, they've got everything you need to do it with low prices guaranteed. Mowing your lawn is a dream with top brand outdoor power tools like the Ryobi 40 volt mower with up to 50 minutes of runtime. You can add a pop of color with spring blooms and fresh plants and refresh your garden beds with earth grow mulch, five bags for just$10.

1:02:43Bill Simmons:Start your spring with low prices now through April 1st. Available at the Home Depot. Exclusions apply. See homedepot.com slash price match for details. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step-by-step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way, add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you with expert full service. TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. All right, so$35 million budget made$126.2 million.

1:03:28Bill Simmons:LA Confidential. Roger Ebert, four stars. LA Confidential is seductive and beautiful, cynical and twisted, and one of the best films of the year. No shit. Raj. Raj has been on fire in 2026. This is also like, you could have blindfolded me and I would have said pretty much that. That would be his review. Did your dad review this? I don't know. Probably. I had too many rewatchable scenes. I'll go through, I'll go fast. Crow meets Basinger the first time. Exley shows up at the Night Owl coffee shop after all the murders. And then they take the picture after. He's like, hold on, let me take my glasses off for this great shot.

1:04:03Bill Simmons:Crow goes to Basinger's house. She came on a bus with dreams to Hollywood. And this is how it turned out. Thanks to Pierce, we still get to act a little. To be fair, she took a bus from Echo Park to Hollywood. Her mother lives, yeah. I do like you're the first person in five years who didn't tell me I look like Veronica Lake. He's like, you look better, right? Really good move by our guy, Bud. The interrogation scene. Can we talk about this quick? Why quick? This scene's a fucking banger. It's a masterpiece of fully.

1:04:33Sean Fennessey:It's probably my favorite. I think it's my favorite.

1:04:35Andy Greenwald:And just to be clear, where are we putting the parentheticals? Interrogation into Bud going to solve the real crime? You can have that, but it's just actually moving from room to room. Bud with the chair. Dudley and Jack, the sort of deep focus shots. It's just all the reflective stuff that they're doing. It's so awesome.

1:04:53Bill Simmons:I just quickly, Bud kills the rapist, almost fights with Exley. Exley kills three guys, becomes shotgun Eddie. We have a couple good action scenes. The Rolo Tomasi story. The two Johnny Stompanato scenes, which I'm just lumping together because we get, what do I get if I give you your balls back, you WAP cocksucker? You're going to hear the word WAP again? I'm half Italian. I can joke about it. And then the she is Lana Turner and we get to see the Formosa Cafe. Then we get Lynn Bracken seduces Exley. And then Smith shoots Hollywood Jack. And then the Rollo reveal all in a row. Sierra, I have a question.

1:05:37Bill Simmons:The shocking Kevin Spacey death scene after Cromwell goes heel. The Rollo Tomasi, the way he says it and then dies. Is that eligible for the Jesse Eisberg? That's good. You should be proud of that right there. Don't worry if you don't make it any further award. It's funny you said that because that was going to be my flex, but it was a different spacey line. Oh, we'll save it. Okay.

1:05:57Andy Greenwald:Did you like that new category? I'm excited. There are a lot of, I got to say, it's been a minute. There are a lot of new categories. We've been iterating. There's a little category treat, a little bit.

1:06:04Bill Simmons:Yeah, no comment. I like to have a lot of choices. It's like a big diner. Just go, if you just have, you want a corned beef sandwich? It's a factory menu, yeah.

1:06:15Sean Fennessey:You're, but like, how often when you go to a diner, are you changing up the order? because like the thing about a diner is you find what you like and you stick by it right I'll cut the fucks categories down I like trying to challenge myself I think the thing that's weird about how often will you get sushi at a diner it's like specials but you get into specials today right sometimes sometimes sometimes right

1:06:35Bill Simmons:you got them the specials fine Bill should start each pod by reading the specials which is the new categories for the episode that's a good idea I like that that's good I have a cream of broccoli can I just add one or two well I'm not done yet oh you're still good Bud finds the photos in Danny DeVito's trunk. Yeah. Tough one. Convenient. He thought it was of him. Nope, it's not of you. It's of Exley.

1:06:59Sean Fennessey:That's like when I see social clips of the watch. And I'm like, no, Chris. Chris.

1:07:06Bill Simmons:Chasing him down on the Pasadena commute. And then Bud versus Exley where it seems like Bud's going to kill him and then they decide to work together. Bud tortures the DA for answers which includes the combo toilet dunk legs dangle outside the window we don't get that often yeah we get one but not both incredible risk and then the big shootout at the end victory motel CRO is talks about situational awareness with action scenes tight spaces where the camera is can follow where everybody is it's a good one for that it's really good yeah and it's it's uh it almost feels a little bit premature like when you're watching the movie you're like oh we're doing this now this is the big shootout we're done yeah okay Okay, because in the book, I feel like you're like, it's just like, you know, the Victory Motel Shootout isn't quite the same in the book and stuff like that.

1:07:55There's like a train and shit, but yeah.

1:07:57Bill Simmons:Also, Crow, some of his gun work in this movie leads to Proof of Life three years later. A lot of people don't make that point. I was just having a conversation about this the other day. With Meg Ryan? You know, since the emergence of wearing the tactical bulletproof vest, I think we've seen a different kind of like gun acting going on. and it's also like especially since John Wick but between this and To Live and Die in LA I kind of miss guys running around with a revolver shaking everywhere you know where it's like Pankow jumping over something and being like hey I forgot to tell you I was watching the first eight episodes of Miami Vice again because they're on Tubi Pankow is in Glades yeah I know there was Pankow like a Pankow rejuvenation I was going to text you about this, but I was like, I don't want to bother him about Penko.

1:08:50You can never bother me with my advice.

1:08:52Sean Fennessey:It's two guys and one girl. And then the two guys realize they love each other at the same time. And the girl's like, hey, but we're the one girl.

1:08:59Bill Simmons:Listen. Toobie's flexing it for us. Whole series is there. Are we talking about the Penko sons? Yeah. Cousin Ira? Yeah. Penko had a tough pod to live and die in LA. You gave him a tough time. I think I liked him. I was kind of with Bill. I see both sides to jump on the Pankow recasting bandwagon but was hinting you were more on my side than we are did you get a note in your mailbox from Billy Peterson about it's like hey love your work no he's just all he does is just roll in piles of money that's great he's never heard of podcasting he has a swimming pool with just$20 bills in it he just dives into it he just uncle scrooges it all day just swims around and watches the bills so what's your what did you what scenes did you have that I didn't mention

1:09:42Sean Fennessey:well we mentioned it but when Exley and Bud and Vincennes go into the DA's office or the captain's office and they're being kind of confronted with Will You Rat the way that those three scenes are cut another amazing Spacey performance when he is told that he's going to have the show taken away from him just on his face is amazing and then putting Ed behind the mirror and observing when Jack is being interrogated I think that whole section is so smart and kind of like that's when the movie coalesces and you're like oh it's these three guys like this is really what this movie is about is these three cops

1:10:11Andy Greenwald:what did you have for most rewatchable. You named them all, but it's the interrogation scene for me. It's the interrogation. It jumps up such a level. And to see, it's always fun when the audience gets put in the same position as some of the characters when Jack says, are you sure College Boy is up to this? And he's like, I think you'll be surprised with what the boy is capable of. Yeah. And we all lean in being like, oh, I guess we're about to be surprised. And then I didn't, has there been other precedent of the manipulation of the live mic in an interrogation scene? No. He's conducting it. He's like Dudamel in there.

1:10:41Andy Greenwald:He's a god. Yeah. He's like he's making sure that the other guys can hear certain things that the other the other and really good fully on the snap of the switch

1:10:49Bill Simmons:Really everything I had that in what's age the best is um When college boy was an insult. Oh, yeah in like the 40s 50s 6 like oh look at college boy We just don't have we've lost college boy. I don't know what it is now like master's boy

1:11:05Sean Fennessey:Doesn't have the same way PhD boy. Heck guy. I don't know.

1:11:08Bill Simmons:Just the era where you would make fun of somebody for pursuing higher education just somehow, somehow beneath. I feel like it's like that was for a minute people were calling guys libs. That was like sort of, hey, they're going to let the lib.

1:11:21Andy Greenwald:So that's the most lib thing I've ever heard is that that's over-lib? Over-lib. They're like, I was at Aeron today and no one was calling me a lib. Libs are back, man. So we all have the interrogation. I have the interrogation. Interesting.

1:11:35Sean Fennessey:I have one other small one which is Bud visiting Pierce Patchett for the first time. That's such a good scene. I love that scene. We have not talked about Pierce Patchett and just like... Yeah, Strathairn. Come on. Strathairn is so good in this movie too. Our guy. Dion. Dion, Dave. Okay. Well, I don't want to piss on it. But he's so good in...

1:11:51Bill Simmons:Ugh. He can do that in any movie. Sneakers, like whatever. Yes. One of my favorite IMDb's, including he's in the best Miami Vice episode ever. Dire Straits, Brothers in Arms.

1:12:03Sean Fennessey:Wow.

1:12:03Bill Simmons:The third episode of season two. Just to keep you in the loop. Cut the energy. Him and Bruce McCall. Yep. McGill. McGill? Bruce McGill. Yeah. Bruce McCall. Bruce McGill. New coach of Creighton. I was watching Bruce McGill in a really terrible Bruce Willis movie that I like. Can you guess? The Color of Night? The Last Castle? Nope.

1:12:29Sean Fennessey:Is it Hudson Hawk?

1:12:30Bill Simmons:Bruce McGill. Bruce Willis. Bruce Willis. Sarah Jessica Parker oh uh Striking Distance Striking Distance oh yeah this is the boat yeah Pittsburgh Pittsburgh boat cops disgraced cop doing that like Pittsburgh Coast Guard that was to Pittsburgh what In-N-Out was to Long Island people in Pittsburgh were like Striking Distance Willis was here Willis was having a promos I kind of like that movie made it all the way to Philly it's good

1:12:53Sean Fennessey:the third action where it's like all in that one boat and he's gonna move around the boat but he's being spied yeah I saw it it checks some boxes I'll tell you that much

1:13:01Bill Simmons:cops not liking each other

1:13:03Sean Fennessey:there's Pennsylvania come on it's good it's right in the heart of the Barry Bonds era too is it not it's like early 90s it's pretty good well Benia was on the Mets at this point I think he's still on the Mets technically a Philly guy with the most Philly joke of all time when I'm hosting 2B classics in 7 years CR month will allow it the only other thing I would shoot for odd is like a rewatchable I have the interrogation scene you know what's fucking great is the post X-Leigh shootout montage that they do to skip ahead time where it's like, X-Leigh gets promoted, Jack returns to Badge of Honor, Bud goes, like, continues to see Lynn, and then you get, like, you know, Bud keeps beating up all of the mobsters moving in on Mickey's turf, and the tent opens.

1:13:50Those montages can go the wrong way.

1:13:53Bill Simmons:That one works. It really does. But I think it's probably the worst part of The Godfather when it, Pacino, Oh, it's just the newspapers? Michael kills McCloskey and Sollozzo, and then it's like da da da it's like playing this carnival music and they're just showing newspapers it's like wow

1:14:07Andy Greenwald:the other risk you run is like driving the bus past something you actually wish you could stop and get out and spend more time in like the Santa Monica Freeway well on the Santa Monica Freeway to Pierce Patchett's gender bending champagne party that's right which really like they they had a location yeah you know they brought in the cabaret dancers they could have I bring those back those parties

1:14:25Bill Simmons:gender bending parties at your house just I might do have a Pierce Patchett party yeah you should just like guys No Limits tonight Just a bunch of chicks Wearing clutch sweatshirts Some of the girls are cut Like modern actresses We'll just go for it I'm listening I'm listening I knew what I was saying I said just a bunch of chicks Wearing clutch sweatshirts I was like nothing Craig's already RSVP'd now What's the most 1997 thing About this movie Tough one Because it's set in the 50s But it's got to be Young Crow, right? Would you say anything else? Kevin Spacey on the poster? Yeah, I would say like Kevin Spacey on the posters.

1:15:03Bill Simmons:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ableist species? Probably very...

1:15:04Andy Greenwald:I had, this is to, not to piss Sean off, but I had that this is a movie in the first place is the most deeply 1997 thing about it. Oh, yeah. Because this is a TV show. What streamer would this be on? Exactly.

1:15:15Sean Fennessey:I don't know, man. We're coming off Project Hail Mary. Book adaptations are back. Like, this is the way with movies is adapt these really good novels into movies. This was how it was for like 40 years in Hollywood.

1:15:26Andy Greenwald:But this was not a popcorn slam dunk beachery bestseller. True, true, true.

1:15:31Bill Simmons:Do you guys want to hear my son's review in the kitchen of Project Hail Mary? Sure. Did I tell you this? You texted it to me, yeah. He was like, how was it? And he said, it sucked. I was like, really? It sucked? People like it. He's like, no, it was good. It sucked, but it was really good. It kept my interest. And I'm glad I saw it in the theater. I was like, it sounds like you liked it. He's like, no, I liked it. I was like, we had to work out this movie. Do you think he was intimidated by thinking he was going against conventional wisdom? I think he was trying to zag because I don't know what he was thinking.

1:16:00Bill Simmons:we're still working on him I do

1:16:04Sean Fennessey:to his credit there's that thing where the expectations are really high for a movie and you're like this did not meet the expectations

1:16:09Bill Simmons:that's where we landed yeah

1:16:10Sean Fennessey:it's good and I appreciate it but it's not

1:16:12Bill Simmons:the next thing he said was it wasn't like 2001 that's his favorite movie that's his next quote yeah that's true though yeah it wasn't gonna be 2001 Ben so we're working he's only 18 work in progress special category I threw in the Floyd Gondoli butter in my ass and lollipops in my mouth Not the word for something I just enjoy. I like scared characters with a puddle of pee underneath them. We get two in this. Home run. Huge. Every time. If someone pisses themselves, it means it's a good movie. I didn't think they'd go back to the well, so to speak.

1:16:44Andy Greenwald:You know somebody's scared when they're just,

1:16:46Bill Simmons:the pee is running down their leg or there's pee under their seat. It's the last level of fear.

1:16:52Andy Greenwald:Craig, don't put the cameras down beneath this table.

1:16:55Bill Simmons:That's how I felt when you guys asked me if I like proof of life. you like proof of life you just don't know it yet my gondoli was a Cadillac Eldorado's driving around LA in the 1950s it's pretty cool I just go for it what's age the best Andy

1:17:12Andy Greenwald:I thought your Floyd gondoli would be like a group of men being told to go out and pursue justice without mercy that is just such a slam dunk for you what's age the best well we already said racial profiling is an attempt to project dominance and safety in a community. Going great. I thought audience's willingness to explore twisty morality genre tales, just not in movie theaters. You had tabloid culture. I feel like LA is still a rough adjustment for some outsiders. You don't usually get pulled into the Victory Motel. But, you know, emotionally it can be a tough adjustment. That's what working above Herbalife was, Grantland.

1:17:53That's right. It was kind of our Victory Motel. That was what LA was like.

1:17:58Sean Fennessey:would you have oh uh well my gondoli is when a a seemingly kindly old irishman is the most evil person in the movie which is also we find that in the town as well of course there's many such examples um and this one has a great one in dudley but what's age the best is there's a really good interview with hansen where he said i love characters who only have one scene but they're the star of that scene oh and this movie is a great example of that and there's a handful of actors when we get into some of the other character categories that we can talk about. But that's a really clever idea that I think has been dispensed with a bit over the last 25 years.

1:18:35Sean Fennessey:And he was really good at that.

1:18:36Andy Greenwald:Tarantino bought him with the Watkins. Yes. But it's like the coroner. The coroner, he's had a whole day before Bud White walked into his office.

1:18:42Sean Fennessey:I mean, Stensland is a great example of a character. When he's in the scene, he's the star of that scene. Yeah, that's right. That's a good one. What do you have, CR? For best?

1:18:49Bill Simmons:Yeah. Pierce Patchett is a proto-Epstein. Enriching himself, exerting control from the shadows, using blackmail. This is more of like a movie thing. I think for the novel readers, they're a little like, all right, but Dudley telling Exley he'll never be a great cop unless he can shoot a criminal in the back in order to get justice. And that's exactly how Exley kills Dudley. I had that as well. And just like the balls on these guys to do the Dudley, to make Dudley like a twist rather than going into it. We all know Dudley is like the dark prince of Los Angeles. and instead it's like, holy shit, this guy is taking over for Mickey Cohen.

1:19:28Bill Simmons:I have corrupt LA cops, which you mentioned. I love movies where the police department hates one of their own cops. Yeah. Always works. You're shunning him. Yeah, and there's like, they're in groups and he's coming around the corner and they're just kind of stink eyeing him. Serpico, yeah. Yeah, that always works for me. I was kind of like, there's, I don't ever want to use Sora, the AI video thing, but I kind of want to put Inspector Todd in LA Confidential. Is that that fucking Exley out there?

1:20:00Just put him in every cop movie? Increase racial harmony within the LAPD?

1:20:07Bill Simmons:Talking about getting plastic surgery is having you cut? I think we just need to bring it back. That just comes back, yeah. You're going to have me cut to look like Nick Wright?

1:20:18Where's Chris been?

1:20:20Andy Greenwald:Why does Chris have so many chiefs' opinions? Why does Chris have a QB tier? Is Chris okay?

1:20:28Bill Simmons:DeVito, I mean, I know it's the 50s, so you can get away with it. You couldn't now. But when he rips off the back-to-back, did you know the DA is a swish? And then he does the Reynolds as an AC Doocy? Two phrases nobody said in 50 years. Yeah. Just, I thought it was... There's a lot of colorful Elroy-isms in the book, too, that you don't hear too often. And then Russell Crowe said that Elroy told him Bud White doesn't drink So Crowe didn't drink during the entire shoot And described it as the most painful period of his life And not ironically Yeah, probably why he looks great by the end of the movie I mean, he legendarily like builds his own bar at set Like he has like a pub set up Or he did So the best all-time drunk actors Quentin Jaws is number one he died when he was like 34 Richard Harris and Oliver Tom Cruise Oliver Reed Oliver Reed was another he died during Gladiator Sterling Hayden Sterling Hayden long goodbye

1:21:30Sean Fennessey:didn't even look at the script yes famously huge drunk Peter O'Toole in Lion and Winter yeah I mean throughout his entire Peter O'Toole as well Robert Mitchum yeah incredible Mitchum story Mitchum wouldn't do Saturday Night Live unless they gave him a case of Jose Cuervo gold that he would go on.

1:21:49Bill Simmons:That's so for him,

1:21:50Sean Fennessey:that dude. Nick Nolte was a famous one. That's a good one. I mean, Colin Farrell, you know, our beloved Colin Farrell for a time,

1:21:57Bill Simmons:you know, he was... Andy, could this be a new Ringer podcast for you where each episode is just a history of a drunk actor? Sure. Yeah. Do we do the full arc of the character?

1:22:06Andy Greenwald:Remember how much time we spent talking about

1:22:07Bill Simmons:Robert Shaw and the Jaws? Yeah. We spent like 20 minutes. He was daring Dreyfuss to climb up on top of the boat. Shame him. Dreyfuss was going to do it. Spielberg had to step in because he was going to die. Did you ask Spielberg about that?

1:22:20Sean Fennessey:Yeah, we talked about it at length. It was roughly 50 minutes of our conversation, which is about Robert Shaw being shit-faced during the making of Jaws.

1:22:27Bill Simmons:What would it be now, Craig? Just somebody who took too many gummies? Yeah, overdosing on CBD during a pod. Man, just soft. Again, we used to know how to make things in this country. We used to be able to really be belligerently drunk on movie sets. We used to know how to cut women

1:22:41Sean Fennessey:so that they could work in brothels modeled on movie stars.

1:22:46Andy Greenwald:Now, to be fair, Kim Basinger has not been cut we should be clear she's not just dyed her hair dyed her hair a tiny bit bride of Bisbee Arizona

1:22:54Bill Simmons:Sierra what do you have for Great Shot Gordo all the stuff in the interrogation scene before Exley goes in there's like a great one of Jack in the front of the frame Dudley in mid Exley is reflected off the glass and you can see into the interrogation booth to see the kid waiting for them and it's just like these guys are spinati it's funny I was watching the movie thinking that was like minus 250 on FanDuel that that was going to be CR's Gordo. Did you have a different one? You love reflection shots. I do. You're a big reflection guy.

1:23:22Sean Fennessey:Multiple split diopter shots in the movie. Like three, I think. Name them. Well, one in particular, when Exley and Bud burst into the DA's office, they show Rifkin in the background and Bud in the foreground. Like, it's just, it jumps out at you. Yeah. I think also just the, one of the very last shots of the movie is Exley holding up the badge in the shadows of the cop cars arriving, which is just a beautiful, image.

1:23:46Bill Simmons:I like the cop cars coming over the hill. That's really good.

1:23:49Sean Fennessey:There's one other one too which is like when Exley and Bud White are about to have a showdown in the street and it's one of the only zooms in the movie and it zooms in on the two of them and captures them in the frame head to head with each other.

1:24:00Andy Greenwald:This is the thing I wanted to say. It is such an unshowy movie in terms of camera work and direction. It is always serving the story and then when I went through it to consider this category, that's what jumped out. The very few times that they choose to move the camera, you pay attention. So weirdly one of my nominations for this category is like not even that memorable of a scene but it's when Stensland walks out of Dudley's office after turning in his badge and gun and he puts out his hand to shake Bud's hand and we kind of move the camera around to this just wall of raw beef faces all being like raw deal Stens and then we completely move the camera to see Exley coming down the hall all alone and similarly you called it a minute ago when Bud shows up at Patchett's house and he's at the top Patchett's putting at the bottom and they're both in frame and you feel the divide between them.

1:24:47Bill Simmons:Chess Rockwell, Brock Lander's award for best character name. Hollywood Jack, the Big V. A lot of good ones in this. The Big V. In two names. He pulled out two nicknames successfully.

1:24:59Sean Fennessey:A lot of good ones. Pierce Morehouse Patchett, which is P-I-M-P, is pretty darn good. Yeah, pretty good.

1:25:05Andy Greenwald:What about Buzz Meeks? Dick Stensland? I would say there's a shadow version of this category, which is missed opportunities, because there are a lot of characters in the film, some of whom have lines and have a role to play, and their names are Chief of Police or City Councilman. I think that's because those guys in the novel, who's the Chief of Police, are like real cops. It's just, I feel like if you were able to dine out in Los Angeles in 1998 and be like, guess what? I'm in the Best Picture-nominated film, LA Confidential, and I have three scenes. Who do you play? Councilman. It's kind of a bummer.

1:25:39Andy Greenwald:Yeah, it is a bummer.

1:25:40Bill Simmons:the Amanda Dobbins award for best piece of real estate. Here we go. Shout out to Amanda. Um, the LA confidential house, it's in Hancock park. It's right next to the 10th and 11th hole of Wilshire country. And this is Lynn's house. This is Lynn's house. So it's basically the 11th, 11th fairway. Um, it was for sale twice in the last seven years. And the first time, so it was on one of my walks, um, went and checked it out. Went, didn't open a house before somebody fixed it up. And it was pretty beaten up. But it was like the LA Confidential House. Everybody in the neighborhood knows the house. All that Bud White sperm.

1:26:18Bill Simmons:Is that what the issue was? Yeah. He's a black light in the house. But it was cool. Buy it to put his money in there? Well, there's no backyard. It was like mostly a front yard and then a side yard that's next to the golf course. And it was kind of like, this is something you'd really have to spend money to fix it up. Somebody bought it, fixed it up, and then sold it during COVID for$7.5 million. Do you think they gutted it or do you think that amazing like front room is still there? They kept the bones, but I think they had to fix. It was one of those where you walked on it. You could feel the floors creaking.

1:26:46Bill Simmons:It was old. It was buried under there. But it's fucking cool. And that's a really cool street that you basically come off Rossmore, which is one of the first big Hollywood streets. You take a left and you go down and it curls around. And where it curls is where that house is. So you see it and it curls right through Coinga. But it's a really cool, distinct house. I don't know how livable it is.

1:27:08Sean Fennessey:It's funny. This is the category I picked for my flex category, but I didn't pick that house. I picked Pierce Padgett's house. Yeah, that's the architectural marvel.

1:27:15Bill Simmons:So I had some thoughts on the Pierce house because that's the runner up. I wanted it to be even bigger. The inside. I wanted it to be like this, like the fucking Babylon house. Oh, yeah.

1:27:26Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

1:27:27Bill Simmons:If he's doing H, Sean, he's getting that H money. Yeah, but he's sniffing it too. Plus, oh, maybe he's sniffing, maybe he's using the product. of the profits. He's also got to pay for all those ladies to get cut. Getting cut was more expensive than anything. That might not be covered by insurance. So you like the house? I don't...

1:27:44Sean Fennessey:Are the interiors in the movie the actual interior? I'm not sure. I've never been... I thought it was too modern. It's up the street from where I live. I've never been there. It's in Los Feliz. It's the Lovell house. It's a very famous house. Very famous architectural masterpiece in LA that was built like 100 years ago. But it feels like it was designed in the 50s and it's beautiful.

1:28:03Andy Greenwald:It's a Neutra house.

1:28:04Sean Fennessey:It was built in 27.

1:28:05Bill Simmons:The great thing about Hancock Park is like these houses have been around for 110 years and like some shit went down in a lot of the houses and you just can kind of feel the energy. It's like, yeah, definitely. Like Amityville Horror Style? Well, you never know. Ghosts? Yeah. Who knows? Sean Fenton, a word for stealth homage that gives every movie nerd a criteria orgasm. What a pleasure to have Andy here for this category.

1:28:26Andy Greenwald:I'm excited for this. But wait, what about the real estate? I thought someone was going to mention Bob's Market in Echo Park, which is the three streets converging where the boxer is. And that's where Fast and Furious starts, right? Isn't that like that's the market in Echo Park?

1:28:39Bill Simmons:Wow, I didn't want to bring that up, but it did look a little familiar. On CR month of all months,

1:28:45Sean Fennessey:you would invoke Fast and Furious in your presence. I've never seen it.

1:28:50Andy Greenwald:I just thought that was appealing to you, Sean. What do you have for Criterior Gasms?

1:28:57Sean Fennessey:two and they're related as Andy mentioned Bud and Lynn go to a showing of Roman Holiday the Audrey Hepburn Gregory Peck classic Oscar winning movie released September of 53 so it's right at the perfect time because this movie is December, January, January and when Jack goes for a drink after the party at Badge of Honor he goes to the Frolic Room which is right next door to the Pantages Theater which is showing on the marquee The Bad and the Beautiful which is as you mentioned is one of the key inspirations for this movie Frogworm's still there still there my only other criteria orgasm is an oral you don't get to have criteria orgasms this is Sean's solo I'm pulling one in there because it's music based

1:29:43Bill Simmons:you just joined in it's CR month alright it is CR month Jerry Goldsmith based some of the score off of Leonard Bernstein's On the Waterfront score Jerry Goldsmith based C.R. Martin does get to have a criteria orgasm on C.R. Martin. He riffed on it.

1:29:58Sean Fennessey:Have you ever orgasmed on the show? On this one? Yeah. During Saqqara, you just didn't know. Just a quiet death. It's a time to meet God. Little death.

1:30:07Bill Simmons:Just walked into the dark. Did you hear in the mailbag a listener said that the Emily Blunt character should have been Tom Cruise? It was an amazing email. like Tom Cruise the firm early 90s young guy who's irrationally cocky I'm not a soldier it's pretty interesting thought maybe you could do that on Sora sure Tom Cruise and Sicario you have a flex category let's see I had Jesse Eisenberg that's good you should be proud of that right there don't worry if you don't make it any further what's the best line reading was when Jack says to Exley why in the world do you want to go digging any deeper into the Night Owl Killings, Lieutenant.

1:30:53Because it's like, that made you. So yeah, that was my favorite line.

1:30:59Bill Simmons:Butch's Girlfriend Award, weak link of the film. This will be interesting. Do we have a weak link, Sean?

1:31:05Sean Fennessey:I don't think that it's Basinger, but I wrote down Basinger because I didn't know what to do.

1:31:09Andy Greenwald:Okay. Andy? This might be sort of a niche thing, but I think DeVito is the worst on-screen Italian as Jew since De Niro in Casino. Great take. Like, I, like... This is honestly... Yeah, go ahead. I'm fixated by this. Love it. Like, there's a lot of... And we'll get to, I imagine, Cromwell's Irish accent. But, like, there's a lot of... Certain words are doing a lot of labor for DeVito's performance where he's just like... Boy chick. Come on, boy chick. Yeah. Like, okay. Yeah, I found that. Maybe the scales are even because Jason Alexander played a character named George Costanza. So maybe the Jewish-Italian alliance is strong.

1:31:47This is a real hobby horse of yours, though. Yeah, you like to point out great acts of anti-Semitism in casting.

1:31:53Andy Greenwald:I love it. Come on. Anytime it comes up on the watch, I like it. When you have a long role of representation, like the muckraking editor-in-chief of Hush Hush magazine, who crouches in closets to photograph the rich and powerful having sex. Ellis Logue at a BJ. This is important for the culture. Yeah. Okay? So I'm just saying that's an opportunity. For sure. That's the weak link. the passage of time in this movie is not super well documented to me so I think if you watch this movie like the way Craig did like the first time like did you think years have gone by in this movie it was a little unclear is that true yeah it starts in 53 and no 51 yeah they flip a newspaper at one point the newspaper says 53 oh I would have said months in the book it's like a decade almost it's eight years I could have thrown a Dodgers game in there but they do a good job of it like it doesn't really matter it doesn't really matter It's not a weak link.

1:32:46And I also think like to that, to that same point, like the heroin, it's, it's still kind of hard to track the heroin in the movie. My weak link was Danny DeVito. Yes.

1:32:58Bill Simmons:Thank you. For different reasons. For the reasons you mentioned. Thank you. I just wasn't buying it. He's just an Italian. He's just Danny DeVito. I also, he takes me out of the movie a little. A little bit. He's, his Danny DeVito-ness is just too omnipresent and too much of a history with him. And he's in taxi and his remains. I can't buy him as a character and I almost don't know if we needed a famous actor for that part. Every time he's in a scene It's such a good Buscemi role or something. Yeah, it's just... There you go again.

1:33:27Andy Greenwald:I know it's the R month but excuse me. Another Italian? Is Kevin Pollock Jewish? What about Pankow?

1:33:35Bill Simmons:He's right there. Pankow? Come on. Honestly, Kevin Pollock could have done it. I find that

1:33:42Sean Fennessey:DeVito is a great first voice to hear when the movie opens and you're getting those postcards. And he's kind of a great narrator. But when he's in scenes and Spacey, who's a big showy actor but is much more subtle in this movie and DeVito is just throwing ham sandwiches at him nonstop. I mean, it's crazy how big he is.

1:34:00Andy Greenwald:Which maybe it's why they cast a goy.

1:34:01Bill Simmons:Could be. I just think he's done too much comedy over the... Like, even when he was getting, like, beaten up in the chair at the end, it's like, come on, let's stand it to DeVito. I had a... I had one for this for recasting. Is Billy Crystal too famous for that part? Yes.

1:34:19Sean Fennessey:Well, you could certainly make the case Danny DeVito was way too famous for this part. Why is Danny DeVito even in this movie? My point is if you're going to go

1:34:25Bill Simmons:famous for that part, I'd rather have Billy Crystal. Yeah. And then my dream choice would have been Larry David because nobody knew who Larry David really looked like in 97. This is the big brain thinking I want. Yes. That could have been where we went, but I just... So that's when Larry David walks up to Jack Vincennes and he says, this guy has a jackalip in his stomach.

1:34:53I don't know.

1:34:54Bill Simmons:He took me out of the movie. Too much history. Anyway, what's age the worst? Kevin Spacey. I didn't like the Pierce house as much. I really wanted like a Babylon house for him. I wanted like just... Spanish style. This house is obscene. We're like in Hollywood Hills. There's no house within... Maybe we're in Malibu. I don't know. I just wanted like a giant kind of like crazy, oh my God, this guy's got to be the richest guy in LA kind of house. Got to no sell that one. Guy Pearce, Kevin Spacey stuff. That was just in the news. Spacey got handsy with him on the set. Yeah. And he was uncomfortable in the whole thing.

1:35:32I don't probably

1:35:33Bill Simmons:should have just punched him. James Elroy's relationship to the film is all over the map.

1:35:40Andy Greenwald:Yeah.

1:35:42Bill Simmons:97 he said it was a work of art on its own level and in 2016 he said it was problematic and in 2023 he said it was turkey of the highest form and that Crow and Basinger are impotent right and then when Curtis Hanson died he was like it's a pretty good movie I don't have any other what's aged the worst

1:36:03Andy Greenwald:kind of a weird cat I think what's aged the worst is hands down the opening and I quote, there are jobs aplenty and land is cheap. Every working man can have his own house. I don't know, any millennials, Craig, do you want to weigh in on that? Don't have a home. Yeah. Can working men have a home for Los Angeles, Craig? Craig is producing this from an Acura. There's one other quote

1:36:26Sean Fennessey:in the film that is obviously very purposefully almost groan-worthy, but from downtown to the beach in 20 minutes is a heinous note, which is just simply not true. Unless you're driving a cab in collateral. yeah interesting a couple of what's aged the worst the fight that Bud and Exley have in the records room when he catches Exley like after Lynn yeah he would have fucking killed him like the way he's like throwing him around the room he's like slamming his head into a filing cabinet and the guy is like a shiner afterwards

1:36:58Andy Greenwald:that's also Russell Crowe's audition to be Wolverine that's right that's why he I think when he throws the chair out of the window

1:37:03Bill Simmons:for no reason at all just to be like ah god damn it I had something somebody had to pay something else you gotta bring back

1:37:08Sean Fennessey:because just being able to be ruthlessly violent in the workplace, you know, just throwing furniture through windows.

1:37:13Andy Greenwald:Yeah, that was definitely an HR violation. Yeah. Is that the day you transition to talent only is the day you make that? Yeah, so as soon as I can get a window out, yeah. Do you think that the LAPD had HR? No. Right. I don't. And then the only other thing that... Do they have it now, I think, is a better question. The Lynn Dudley-Budd triangle.

1:37:35Bill Simmons:Yeah. that whole like we're gonna take pictures of xley with lynn to make bud go crazy so that he attacks xley thing is the one uh film only flourish that is a little off because in the book inez the rape victim is actually the center of their love triangle so you think el rey saw that part so what the fuck well i think it's just almost as like why wouldn't they just have actually killed like they're doing that to everybody else like why i think el rey sounds insane but if somebody did like an adaptation of the book of basketball and they had like Carl Malone third, I would fucking lose my mind.

1:38:11Andy Greenwald:But you said, you said your adaptation would be to forget the entire text.

1:38:14Sean Fennessey:We got to game this out. Who is making the film? Is it a scripted film? Nobody is. A 12-part documentary? I have an easy category. I will direct the 12-part documentary book of basketball if I can reorder the pyramid in any way.

1:38:31Andy Greenwald:And the film festival beforehand is going to be killer.

1:38:33Bill Simmons:The Ruffalo hand a Rubenick Partridge overacting where it is an easy one. It's the old lady who IDs her call girl daughter and then has two other terrible scenes and looks like David Letterman. Looks like David Letterman in drag. Gwenda Deacon? It's just a zero the entire time. Say her name. Come on. Gwenda? Did somebody call in sick? Was there some Oscar winner that at the last second like fell ill

1:38:54Andy Greenwald:and they just had to grab someone? In one scene, it's a vibe. Like, okay, when she's identifying that's my girl and you're like, wow, that was really memorable day player that they found to play that role. of all the people who show up on set and you're like, let's reward this person with an entire... Two more scenes. Two more scenes. Really bad. You have a flex category.

1:39:12Sean Fennessey:I already did it. It's Pierce Patchett and you shot me down. You said it's not a nice house and it's not architecturally significant and I should stop talking and so I will.

1:39:20Bill Simmons:I thought it was a nice... I was saying...

1:39:23Sean Fennessey:I feel like his house would have been splashier and more... What's his background, Pierce? How did he make his fortune?

1:39:30Andy Greenwald:Businessman.

1:39:31Sean Fennessey:H. H slinging H.

1:39:32Andy Greenwald:No, no. I think he's dabbling now.

1:39:34Sean Fennessey:But he's in his 40s or 50s at this point. So how did he make his 40s? Honestly, people age differently. That's a good point. I think he's emerged out of a world of blackmail and extortion. Okay.

1:39:45Bill Simmons:I had a major nitpick for this that I was going to do later, but I'll do now since Sean brought it up. I just think gambling's part of this. I don't know how he misses it. The guy's a businessman. You got H over here. Yeah. I got my call girls here. The horses. I have like a whole underground casino in my giant palace. He's watching March Madness hitting parlays. Every boxing thing, the guys are going down there, they're taking bets. There's no way he's not doing gambling. Mickey Cohen was running that in LA, so there would have been this vacuum. Big missed opportunity. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award.

1:40:19Bill Simmons:Andy, you haven't done this before.

1:40:21Andy Greenwald:I don't know if I have a hot take. I struggle to find one. I have one. I think this is like the perfect modern period film in that it feels really true to life. It has all of the sort of superficial, like the cars, the production design. All of it looks like the 50s, but it feels like a 90s movie. It's cut like a modern film. The acting style is decidedly modern. Everything about the performance and the editing and the feel of the film is like 97. You could put this up against usual suspects and it feels very similar, but then they take all of the know-how of like how to make a full-on L.A. noir movie and push it out there.

1:41:04It's just like the perfect balance.

1:41:05Andy Greenwald:We should shout out Brian Raftery, our friend's article on TheRinger.com about 90s noir. It really talks about why the 50s and the 90s were decades that celebrated noir because they were decades after a big conflict where the United States had a very clear like, you know, self, at least the way they thought of ourselves as Boy Scout role to play and then there's kind of a moral morass afterwards. yeah

1:41:28Bill Simmons:take wasn't hot enough I'm coming in way hotter okay that was warm I'm just telling you I'm gonna be scorching Sean you go okay

1:41:36Sean Fennessey:um set up to fail there this is

1:41:39Bill Simmons:you can come in hot

1:41:40Sean Fennessey:I'm just saying people are gonna get burned the second best adaptation of the Wizard of Oz of all time um that's good that's pretty good it's a good hottest take and and Wicked and Wicked For Good are very far near the bottom um there's Bud the cop with no brain there's Ed the cop with no heart and there's Jack, the cop with no courage. And then there's the victimized girl, Lynn, who just wants to escape Oz and go back home to Arizona, not Kansas. And they all get what they want. And Dudley is the wizard? He is the wizard of Oz. Who are the flying monkeys? That was really good. I didn't invent that take.

1:42:13Sean Fennessey:That is something that has been suggested about this movie. That's really good. It is good. If you played Dark Side of the Moon, starting at...

1:42:20Andy Greenwald:Who invented that take? And can we get them here before the end of the recording? It's been read about since the 90s

1:42:24Sean Fennessey:because the archetypes of the characters are so strong. And it's like, why does this movie feel so familiar even though I've never seen this movie before? It feels like getting trapped by Tarantino in a kitchen somewhere. He's like, what you don't know, man, is L.A. Confidential is just Wizard of Oz, man.

1:42:41Bill Simmons:Mine is, this is almost a new category, the Pierce Patchett Award for most reprehensible movie plot idea. That was actually pretty awesome. His business of high-class call girls being cut to look like movie actors, I think it's kind of a brilliant business. Great job by him. Wow. It's ahead of its time. Yeah. Like, I think you could do this now. You think he wins Shark Tank? I think you could do this. You got a Shark Tank right now and be like, so we got the Kardashians. Sharks. We have Margot Robbie. And I don't know. I think in the room, I think Cuban buys it. Who knows, Bill? Maybe it's still happening today.

1:43:19Craig? I literally had this written down.

1:43:21Bill Simmons:I was like, this guy invented deep fakes, essentially. Casting what ifs. We mentioned McConaughey. He turned it down. Said in 2018. Really regretted it. Russell Crowe turned it down. Then they talked him into it. Nothing else interesting. There was Isabella Skrupko offered the lead female role, turned it down. I don't know if I believed it. That was in one of the research things. Gold Nye. Gold Nye. It was in one of the things. other things I saw Basinger was their first choice they really wanted her so who knows there was a Michael Madsen as Bud thing I didn't believe that one okay no I'd I'd kick the tires on it I just think at 97 is Madsen getting a movie like this what about Michael Madsen cut

1:44:05Andy Greenwald:to look like Russell Crowe could I interest you in that yeah this could go both ways we could start doing guys too yeah that's very go on no you could cut guys to look like other actors and then what would happen look at this Glenn Powell lookalike I have yeah what are you doing with it fucking you're having a catch I don't know

1:44:23Bill Simmons:don't torture CR on CR month I bet that guy word is a smorgasbord

1:44:29Andy Greenwald:there's so many that guys this is the best running some routes

1:44:32Sean Fennessey:you want to do the Pierce Patchett but just to make cool friends who look like famous people I'm gonna make fucking Colin Farrell from Miami Plates and go get mojitos but he's just some dude from Nebraska got off the bus yeah that's a good idea I'm a queen for mojitos.

1:44:49Bill Simmons:I feel like he would do that. Have you seen that video of the guy who hires the Tom Cruise impersonator and just has him come over to his house? He's one-on-one. It's a very human desire. Pamela Anderson is Lynn Bracken. Did you kick the tires on that? I just don't believe it. Okay. I don't think they're going. This is a year after Baywatch. One of the great mysteries of this podcast to me is when you'll decide a rumor is not real. Listen, there's a sniff test to all of these, and I just don't think Curtis Hansen was like, You know who should get? Pamela Anderson to play. I just don't see it. And I think as the years pass, as we've discussed, I think that people just start adding stuff into the history of the movie.

1:45:28Sean Fennessey:I want to start doing that for recreation. Just pop it on the IMDB trivia page. Or Wikipedia. You can just basically start adding shit.

1:45:35Bill Simmons:That's that guy. We have a ton. We have, for the common man, the Craigs out there, we have Stratharn. I think people, not everybody knows his name. Rob Rifkin is definitely that guy I have Ron Rifkin Ron or Rob? Ron Ron Rifkin I'm going so much deeper The leader of SD6 We have Matt McCoy the dad from Hand That Rocks the Cradle callback

1:45:56Andy Greenwald:Wait Matt McCoy also who I will always think of as Nick Lessard the replacement for Steve Guttenberg in the later period Police Academy Thank you Five and Six I was like this guy's gonna be a star as big as Steve Guttenberg that's my 10 year old my first podcast take And then in one of the TV adaptations he played Exley's dad. Matt McCoy is Matt McCoy.

1:46:17Bill Simmons:Okay. Except for Craig. There's a couple other guys. There's more, yeah. There's stealth on Alan Graff as the wife-beater in the beginning. Yeah. I feel like he might have been in the most rewatchables even more than Tom Cruise. He's a legendary stuntman, stunt coordinator, and second unit director. But yes, he has been killed in 74 rewatchables. But I know that we have the same winner for this. I'm excited. Do you have Thomas Arana? Oh, my God. What part was he? He's one of Dudley's henchmen who's in... he's the fucking guy at the end of Hunt for October and he's Russell Crowe's homie in Gladiator and he's in Limitless.

1:46:51Bill Simmons:So, great choice, but that was not who I had. There's another one. John Mahon?

1:46:55Andy Greenwald:John Mahon, yeah, that's who I have. John Mahon is always... I assume you're talking about Paul Guilfoyle.

1:47:01Bill Simmons:The guy driving the armored truck in heat is one of the guys that get in the prison fight with... Wait. Yeah. The first guy is driving the car. Oh my God! Are you serious? Yeah. The guy who's like, got shit coming out of his ears. The guy who's driving in the armored truck and he looks over and sees the truck and does this. Yeah. He's the first guy that they punch. You can't hear you slick. Yeah. Yeah. Cousin Art, you know. I can't believe you didn't notice that. I'm sorry. I mean, this is why you're you, man. I thought you would have been riding with me on this. I'm riding now. I literally don't know that guy's name.

1:47:35I don't want to look it up. fucking Hunt for October Gladiator in Liverpool. That was pretty good.

1:47:38Andy Greenwald:What about John Mahone, though? Yeah, he's great. Who only plays Chiefs of Police. Yeah, true. He was the American president, Armageddon, Zodiac. In Austin Powers 2, he was NATO colonel. He was Earth Corp ship commander in something. And famously, he was the LMU coach in the Hank Gathers story. Oh. I just put that in to appeal to Bill. Who was the LMU coach? Wasn't it somebody famous? Who was their office? Paul Westett. Yeah, that's right. There you go.

1:48:03Bill Simmons:But again. So that guy, he's typecast, but in a good way. And he's telling his wife. Yeah. Yeah, there's this new Tom Clancy. There's this part for the general. I think I'm going to get it. He just kind of knows.

1:48:15Andy Greenwald:I'm either one of the chiefs of staff or I'm chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. No matter what it is. Philip Baker Hall is busy. That's that guy.

1:48:21Bill Simmons:Who do you have for Dion Waiter, CR? I think this is Trith. Adam as well, unless you wanted to throw some Dick Stensland at me. I thought Simon Baker in here as well. Early Simon Baker. First Simon Baker, actually. So much so that he has a different name. Three Aussies. Three Aussies. Yes, movie. did get my wife's attention when he came on because you know Big Devil wears Prada sure for him what about The Mentalist were you a fan of that show The Mentalist never watched him okay recasting couch director of City did anybody have anything else for this I do we already talked about this what do you got I want to talk something out here yeah for Dudley possibly oh bonus points are actually Irish authentically Irish yeah unquestionably if there's a hell your mother's in it unquestionably fucking evil the second you see him nobody's like what a nice guy

1:49:08Andy Greenwald:Small, though, of stature. Not of charisma. But is closer to, like, what Dudley was, which was just, like, very sinister. You think Postuate communicates evil right away. Yeah, don't you? I mean, I know in the Jim Sheridan movie. No, that's right.

1:49:22Sean Fennessey:Yeah, in the name of the father, he's so moral. But he's coming off the lawyer and usual suspects. Oh, yeah. Kobayashi. Yeah. Coming off that. Right. That's good. And then I had... How tall is Cromwell?

1:49:33Andy Greenwald:He keeps growing in my estimation. He's like... He's like Victor Wembe now. He's like Victor Wembe, yeah. The only other ones I had was, how about Campbell Scott or Josh Charles as Exley?

1:49:43Bill Simmons:Oh, good choices. Is Bale too young? At this point, probably. I'm just trying to get an American a job. Oh, I see what you're doing. So, Damon. It should just be Damon. Okay. He could have done this, Talented Mr. Ripley, Goodwill Hunting, and Rounders all in a row. Would have been like, oh my God, the fucking goat is here. Pretty good. Yeah.

1:50:03Sean Fennessey:I like that. It's one year after Larry Flint. so Ed Norton is a possibility and he Ed Norton

1:50:09Bill Simmons:that's a really good one that's Andy Greenwald that's why I'm here so Ed Norton was American History X and Rounders in 97 so would not have probably been available for this movie but would have been a really good X-Ling

1:50:25Andy Greenwald:I think so

1:50:27Bill Simmons:Ed Burns hmm

1:50:30Sean Fennessey:you're before Saving Private Ryan she's the one is that 96 yeah I don't know Ed Burns is Exley? Ed Burns was a hard-boiled detective in a TV show like seven years ago. What was that show called? Yeah, he came on the podcast. Yeah, what was that show called? Great question. I watched some of that show. Was he a detective? Yeah. Obviously, Ed Burns, Long Island. It got stocked for life.

1:50:50Bill Simmons:Andy, you have a flex category.

1:50:52Andy Greenwald:I do. What was his show called? Was it Public Morals? Yeah, my flex category is probably, let me find it, but you probably could have guessed that I would have chosen this. I chose the Big Kahuna Burger category. But I don't know if I did it right, There are a couple opportunities to discuss food and drink in this movie. How much time do we have left, Greg? I mean, generally, maybe this also goes into the Floyd Gundali. Like, I really like movies set in an era when there are no choices in liquor stores. You walk in and you say, give me a box. And in that box, I want gin, scotch, and vodka. And the guy's like, okay.

1:51:24Andy Greenwald:I don't know what the holdup is, too. Like, I feel like he could have been doing this more quickly since there were no other options. It's also just great to go into stores where people are just dicks to you from behind the counter. where it's just like, don't worry about a Yelp review, man. I also feel like, I feel like Nick from Nick's Liquor's entire performance was 80 yard for some reason. You never see his face. It always sounds like a very strong voice. Also, speaking of drinks, I really feel like Stensland, you know, probably is correctly labeled as a malcontent and maybe not a good cop.

1:51:52Andy Greenwald:Pretty fun at parties, considering his mixology abilities, in which he takes dark liquor and light liquor and just pours them into the punch at the same time. Shout out to Formosa. which still exists. You can get a good meal there. I don't think you can, like Johnny Stompanato, have a daytime Schlitz there with the company of your own thoughts, which I did enjoy. And then the only other food really mentioned in the film is Matt Reynolds' last meal, which is pretty iconic. It's a frankfurter, french fries, alcohol, and sperm.

1:52:26Sean Fennessey:Tough one.

1:52:27Andy Greenwald:Tough order. It's a tough order. But maybe, you know, restaurant menus were different then. That's the secret menu at In-N-Out.

1:52:33Sean Fennessey:Dudley picked up the chat panel. Goddamn. I thought it was just

1:52:40Andy Greenwald:they threw the onions. Nope.

1:52:45Sean Fennessey:Can't believe Sierra Munt is ending.

1:52:47Bill Simmons:Half-assernate research. No building in LA back in the day was led to be taller than City Hall. So they had to basically cheat all the camera work so we wouldn't see any buildings. Had that. So they had the fight scene with Guy Pearce and Russell Crowe. and it was shot four months after principal photography had ended and Pierce had shaved his head for another movie so he's got a wig on. But I didn't really notice the wig when I was watching it. I'm wearing one right now. It looks great. The cop that congratulates Exley at the end is Daryl Gates, famously of the LAPD. It's a weird movie for him to make a cameo.

1:53:23Bill Simmons:Controversial to say the least. Not ideal. Very strange choice. Not ideal. And then you mentioned the rape victim, Inez, in the movie who then disappears after one more scene. In the book, she's huge huge and with excellent and they just cut all that out and works for his dad yeah it's crazy um and then the the level house is here that's patch its home it's a famous house as we mentioned um bracken's house is at 501 wilcox which is which is uh we talked about next to the wilshire country club current inhabitants just had to broadcast to the entire world sorry guys and then they can find this on the internet and then the Victory Motel was built they just liked the location and they built it's like the Englewood like the oil fields out by there Apex Mountain Crono Spacey?

1:54:14Bill Simmons:this is

1:54:15Andy Greenwald:I think there's a case to be made there

1:54:17Bill Simmons:it's either this or American Beauty but I like this because it sets up American Beauty and the run is in okay Guy Pearce it's Memento although it didn't really turn into anything after Memento like we thought.

1:54:28Sean Fennessey:I think he's had a great career.

1:54:29Bill Simmons:No, but I'm saying after Memento, it's like...

1:54:31Sean Fennessey:I think post The Brutalist it might be now. Wow. Interesting. I think he is very well regarded as an actor. It was a film. Okay. Did you see Brutalist? Came out in 2024. You start Brutalist?

1:54:45Andy Greenwald:Started Brutalist. Listen, did you... I think you made the right call. Wow. So it's just two shameful opinions here. Not all of us

1:54:55Bill Simmons:have to watch every movie. We can pick and choose a tiny bit.

1:54:58Sean Fennessey:It was nominated for Best Picture. It wasn't like some obscure piece of shit. But really,

1:55:04Andy Greenwald:it could have been a TV show. Okay,

1:55:05Sean Fennessey:I will assassinate both of you. He's, tell you what, I have another secret for you.

1:55:11Bill Simmons:I never finished Babylon.

1:55:13Andy Greenwald:My main concern, Sean, I'm with you in terms of Guy Pearce being an interesting actor who will age into different gravitas. He should probably stay offline. I don't know if you've seen some of his recent retweets and quotes regarding certain global actions. Let's just say that the tenor of his tweets suggests that he was pro-Danny DeVito being cast as Sid Hutchins. I see. And he would not want someone else cast in that role.

1:55:36Sean Fennessey:Oh, no. I'll just throw that out there. Okay. So you want him abolished from society? No. What are you saying? No, I just want him

1:55:43Bill Simmons:to take his phone away. Stop tweeting. CD LA noir crime movies? Chinatown? Apex Mountain? Yeah. Gotta be, right? Yeah. Basinger. I don't, I really don't think this was Apex Mountain for her. I think it was in the 80s during that nine and a half weeks stretch. Did she... Did Getaway after this? Getaway was before this. Getaway was before this. I think it was nine and a half weeks, Batman, like that era. What did she follow this up with? Everyone loved her. Some well-deserved vacation. She married Alec Baldwin and I think she scaled back a tiny bit after this. But weren't they married before this movie?

1:56:17Bill Simmons:They were married during this film. Yeah. I saw No Mercy in the theater with my mom. Her next movie was Eight Mile, Five Years Later. Just wanted to throw that out there. She took five years off. Which one did you see with your mom? No Mercy with Richard Gere and Kim Basinger where they're handcuffed together and trying to escape in New Orleans. And there was... I got to admit, I don't know this movie. It's bad. Haven't seen it. My mom really wanted to see it. I hadn't been hanging out with her. We went. And there was a point I'm like, wow, this is a weird one to be with my mom. Yeah. I kind of wish I wasn't with my mom.

1:56:48Sean Fennessey:It's amazing that just 90 seconds ago you were like, I don't have to see every movie. But you're telling us about it.

1:56:54Bill Simmons:mercy you're seeing no mercy here and bassinger come on yeah let turn out to be legendary

1:56:59Sean Fennessey:frolic room wait hold on i have a question do you think that eight mile is rewatchable i don't love it it's interesting time capsule i don't know if i know i'm glad it exists but i wouldn't like get the 4k i wonder if my just being a few years younger makes me like that movie a little bit more you were more of an i was more into m &m yeah yeah he spoke to you

1:57:19Bill Simmons:Frolic room, no. That movie peaks with Bob Deep playing in the opening seconds. DeVito, no. It's a critical part of the film. Evil Cromwell? Has he been evil in anything else? He's bad in a couple of things, but not the devil. What's your favorite Cromwell? It's this.

1:57:40Andy Greenwald:Oh, God. Well, he really is good in that Star Trek movie. I think he's very good in that. But Succession was good. I really loved him in Succession. I think that's my favorite. He's really good in that.

1:57:52Sean Fennessey:He's hilarious in that because him and Nicholas Braun are genius together. He plays the president in a Jack Ryan movie. Yeah. But I think this is like maybe his... Mike Harrison for Jack Ryan or which one? No, it's the Ben Affleck movie. I think he's excellent in this.

1:58:08Bill Simmons:I might say this. Toilet face dunking, I still think it's St. Elmo's Fire. 50s LA. Maybe. Dangling a guy out the window. Toilet dunking Big Lebowski. Pretty good one. Good call. I've got a special big picture episode, Toilet Dunks.

1:58:30Sean Fennessey:That's a really good for a slow time.

1:58:31Bill Simmons:Like a June?

1:58:32Sean Fennessey:Two and a half, three hours. I would pay$10 to watch Amanda watch four hours of guys getting dumped in a toilet. Do we have four hours of that much footage?

1:58:42Bill Simmons:I gotta say, whenever there's a toilet dunk, I always think about the actor. And if I had been the actor, like how many times I would have asked the crew, are we sure it's clean? Nobody's going to the bathroom on this. Who cleaned it? Like, I just can't think of anything worse. The San Amos Fire is a good one because it's like a pretty grungy bathroom. Hancock Park movie houses. It's probably the Howard Hughes house in The Aviator, I still feel like. Which one's that? It's on the eighth hole in Wilshire. It's when they land the plane. But he's in that. I feel like that's the best movie location of all of them.

1:59:21Andy Greenwald:Cruiser Hanks. Oh, wait. Can we do one Apex Mountain here? Yeah. For me, this is the Apex Mountain of guys getting shot in the heart. Like the dude watching the cartoons will live rent-free in my head forever because of the noises he makes after being shot. and the attention paid to Kevin Spacey's post-heart shot. It's very good. I feel like they had a shot in the heart consultant on this film.

1:59:44Bill Simmons:I like when they do this after the...

1:59:45Andy Greenwald:It's like, you don't need to...

1:59:46Bill Simmons:We're good. That guy's done. You shot him in the heart. Checking the pulse. A heart shot if it's double tapped and then a guy gets a head shot after because Wayne Grove's like... That's a good one. When they get him in the hotel room but then he gets shot in the head. And what movie was that, Chris? Keith. Well, fortunately, we have a future serial killer here, Craig Wohlbeck. Shot in the heart, you die instantly, right? No, I don't think you do. Which is why when Russell Crowe shoots him and then immediately checks his pulse, I guess he wouldn't have a pulse if he was just shot in the heart, but it has been literally like two seconds.

2:00:15Yes. Because we see Spacey die, and he gets 20 seconds to deliver the line of Rolo... Tomasi.

2:00:22Andy Greenwald:I don't think I would have had that. So they kind of fudge it a little bit. Sometimes you die instantly when you get shot in the heart. Sometimes you don't. It depends if you're in the ventricle. I mean, I think your brain still works.

2:00:31Sean Fennessey:It's amazing to have five doctors here and not know the answer to this question. Well, look, we're all about doing our own research. Feel free to email us the answer. All of us are employed at the CDC, Sean. We are all trying to promote great work. How many games could Jason Tatum play after getting shot in the heart? You know, just like right back at it. Don't tempt OG Ananobi is all I'm saying.

2:00:49Bill Simmons:Cruz or Hanks? Hanks as Hollywood Jack?

2:00:54Sean Fennessey:Cruz is Exley. Cruz is Exley is what I was thinking as well.

2:00:57Andy Greenwald:Yeah, Cruz is Exley was the other choice. So we go Cruz. I think Hank, later Hanks as Dudley.

2:01:05Bill Simmons:That would be a great twist. Casting. Hanks would never go heel like that. What's the closest he can? Road to Perdition?

2:01:11Sean Fennessey:No, he did it in... Road to Perdition. What's the Wachowski's movie? Cloud Atlas? Cloud Atlas, yeah. Doesn't he play like nine guys? He plays like four characters, but he does play a villain.

2:01:22Bill Simmons:You haven't seen it? No, this would have been good for him. I think for the catalog, him playing one villain in the 90s with all the other shit he did would have been good. Do you think it would be fun if Bill watched Cloud Atlas?

2:01:32Sean Fennessey:I do think it would be fun.

2:01:34Bill Simmons:Yeah. I think if we could get some...

2:01:36Sean Fennessey:How long will Bill last during Cloud Atlas

2:01:38Bill Simmons:would be a better game? I don't think it's your speed, but you're not a Hanks completist.

2:01:43Sean Fennessey:That's something we can say about you. You haven't seen them all.

2:01:45Bill Simmons:I haven't been happy with the 21st century in Hanks. I've been on the record for a while. I know you have as well.

2:01:51Sean Fennessey:I wish he did some different things.

2:01:52Bill Simmons:Yeah.

2:01:53Sean Fennessey:He's trying a lot of new instruments. They don't all sound good.

2:01:56Bill Simmons:I think when you fly as close to the sun as he did in the 90s and then with Cast Away, I don't... At some point, it's like... I've won seven titles. What else do you want from me?

2:02:05Andy Greenwald:He only seems happy in the Wes Anderson movies now.

2:02:08Bill Simmons:He's good in those. He's very good. I think he's good at that. I mean, Cranston.

2:02:11Sean Fennessey:Yeah, they're cooking it.

2:02:13Bill Simmons:Scorsese or Spielberg? Clearly Scorsese. Yeah, but I do think it would be interesting to see Spielberg have... The way that this movie excises some of the gross stuff from L.A. Confidential and also makes the characters a little less... I mean, actually, lies about his war record in the novel. There's a lot of stuff about these characters that are even worse. but if you kind of like gave Spielberg this script I do think it would be good that being said he would have cast DeVito as the hush hush editor

2:02:40Andy Greenwald:thank you 100 % Dreyfus would have absolutely yeah Dreyfus that's great Dreyfus that's a great pick oh my god that's great that would have been great Sean for this category I feel like you have to stand up for like the working director like Curtis Hansen because again if it's Scorsese or it's Spielberg it has a very different point of view okay

2:02:58Sean Fennessey:don't you think stylistically

2:02:59Andy Greenwald:that's not the game

2:03:00Sean Fennessey:yeah you have to pick

2:03:01Bill Simmons:you have to pick

2:03:02Sean Fennessey:One thing I will say about Hanson that he said that I thought was really interesting is he was like, I like suspense films. And that's not really a word you hear. Like we talk about thrillers all the time on the show. This is often called a crime movie. This is a suspense movie the way that like a lot of Alfred Hitchcock films are where you're just like really want to know where it's going and what's going to happen. And you're kind of like you're locked in. Like we were saying, there's just not a lot of fat on the movie. And because of that, if you look at almost all the river wild is the same thing.

2:03:29Sean Fennessey:where the whole time you're like where is this going you like that movie the river wild fuck yeah I like the remake too

2:03:37Bill Simmons:I watched on Netflix a movie called gas lit by my husband it's right there in the title we didn't finish Babylon first of all it was amazing it was a lifetime movie it was number one on Netflix had to check it out and I was just riveted the entire time what do you think about suspenseful or gas lit by my husband the title is gas lit by my husband Was this... It was everything I wanted. Did anybody appear in it that we would ever have heard of? Didn't recognize one actor.

2:04:06Andy Greenwald:Will the algorithm on Netflix just roll from this rewatchables right into that film? Can we arrange for it? When we do the after CR month

2:04:14Bill Simmons:when Gaslight by My Husband is the next episode.

2:04:16Sean Fennessey:Gaslighting month is a good idea. You could do the film Gaslight.

2:04:19Bill Simmons:Craig, you should check it out, Liz. I think you guys would like Gaslight by Your Husband. Yeah, she basically thinks she's going crazy, but he's doing stuff to her. and it's it's actually it actually would have been a really good movie with better actors that's my that's my one blurb

2:04:34Sean Fennessey:I'd like to encourage you to check out the 1940s classic Gaslight around which this seems to be very clearly I'm gonna do that too

2:04:41Bill Simmons:Best Hang Worst Hang Best Hang probably Lynn Kim Basinger's character Jack Hollywood Jack Best Hang Go to the Frolic Room with Hollywood Jack Pierce Padgett is the Best Hang Andy Cool house cool attitude nice place It's a house of heroin He's on heroin all the time. So he's chill. Maybe four hours of golf with Pierce Patch would be fun. I think Jack would be like, I know how to get into all the clubs. I know we would go get a nice meal or something. Grease the wheels. Dudley? No. Best or worst? No. He does like his whiskey from Ireland. He had that good line.

2:05:17Sean Fennessey:Knows all the secrets of the world.

2:05:19Bill Simmons:Where's Tank? Stenlin. No, no, no. Mrs. Lefferts. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a dead body. I had X leave, but he's right. Yeah, you're right. Picking nits. I mentioned the gambling really bothered me that there was no gambling in this movie. Kim Basinger was prettier than Veronica Lake. I did some Veronica Lake research. Hold on.

2:05:40Andy Greenwald:Whoa.

2:05:41Bill Simmons:No, I just think, hold on. I just think like, she's right. I just needed to dye my hair and I'm good because I'm hotter than Veronica Lake.

2:05:50Sean Fennessey:That's a subjective opinion, right? Like, whoever's hotter. She, I don't think she looks like Veronica Lake. She doesn't. Nor do I think she acts like Veronica Lake. No. And so she might be the actress who most looks like Veronica Lake at that time who would make sense for the movie. No, I think they would have cast that differently

2:06:05Bill Simmons:if anyone who went to the movie in 1997 could remember who Veronica Lake was except for a later active film nerds.

2:06:12Sean Fennessey:Yeah, but even just the way that Veronica Lake acts, she's a way more playful actor. Yeah. She's way funnier and is in a lot of light comedy in the 40s. And Kim Basinger is not a funny actor at all. No. No. Do you think the lady who they think is a Lana Turner lookalike, but is Lana Turner, in fact, looks like Lana Turner?

2:06:31Bill Simmons:I thought that was pretty good, actually. Yeah. I didn't mind that one. Lana Turner and Johnny Stampanato, by the way, weren't together until a couple years after this movie wrapped up, which was... They kind of shaved it. Anything else for Knit Picks? A lot of mine I put in what's its worst.

2:06:47Andy Greenwald:There's a lot of... It's actually not that fun to go searching for knits for this movie because there's like a thousand people being like, actually, plastic ketchup bottles weren't invented until the 70s. I know. The books.

2:06:58Bill Simmons:The books in Pierce's bookcase.

2:07:00Andy Greenwald:The only nit that I really bugged me on rewatch was there's the scene where Dudley's like, Edmund, lose the glasses. I've never seen a police officer wearing glasses. And then it cuts to stencil and pouring liquor. And the first guy with this cup is fucking four eyes. So I feel like Dudley just left that party.

2:07:15Bill Simmons:Yeah. Come on. Sequel, prequel, prestige, TV, all black cast are untouchable. So in 2020, Brian Helgeland, the writer, said there was a sequel that was in development with Chadwick Boseman, who then got sick. And they decided not to do it. Not based on an Elroy novel? It was set in 1974, and Crow and Pierce would have both been in it. What? And it just kind of fell apart.

2:07:37Andy Greenwald:Yeah, and Helgeland said Warner Brothers passed, and he said that Elroy was either on board or had been spoken to.

2:07:44Bill Simmons:Okay. Interesting. is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Fergie the Florist Zane Lowe or somebody else?

2:07:55Andy Greenwald:I just wanted to shout out the other TV pilot because there were two there was one in 2003 you can watch online with Kiefer Sutherland as Hollywood Jack and the Trio logo during the heyday of Trio the Trio is brilliant but cancelled when they would air pilots really good idea by the way I wish we could bring that back but the one that was for CBS 2019 is pretty compelling because it was created by a writer named Jordan Harper who wrote a book we love called Everybody Knows. And it was Walton Goggins as Vincennes. It was Shea Wiggum as Stensland. Then a bunch of other like good working actors. Like Mark Webber was Bud White.

2:08:31Andy Greenwald:And Harper's whole pitch was that he was going to spread out time. And so the Night Owl wasn't even going to happen until the second season. And that's like, you can't find that one. You can't find it. I've heard that it was very good and that also CBS never ever would have made it because it was a very strange choice for CBS in 2019.

2:08:49Sean Fennessey:There's no way you can do a show like that on network television. No.

2:08:51Andy Greenwald:It was an era when I think they were taking swings to try, like, will we become cable or will we? CBS was like, can you move it to Chicago

2:08:58Bill Simmons:and just set it in a fire department?

2:09:00Andy Greenwald:And have them never leave the fire department? If you just called it Cops colon Los Angeles, it probably would have been on the fall schedule. Sorry to interrupt. What do you got, CR?

2:09:09Bill Simmons:You have Wayne Jenkins, Fergie the Floor, Zane Lowe, anybody else? We've had Zane every week this month. Dudley, man. Here we are from the streets of Dublin to the boulevards of Sunset, the city of angels, and you, you've always held that badge high. That's your journey, but now you're on the other side of the law, so tell me. Tell me how you got there. Tell me what you plan to do with all that H, the rackets, the sin, the vice. Just explain it all to me, man. It's just a girl's fantasy. Why does he keep it in front of me? Zane Yo If Zane just Just launched cop talk And was him talking To fictional And non-fictional cops Amazing But he talks about their Like career high points Yeah I mean everything is like As if they're Harry Styles Sure It's like You've just You know All the sounds You feel You're hearing You're seeing You're bracing people Harry I thought for sure You were gonna have him Interview the Simon Baker character It's been a rough road for you mate Matt Reynolds Last Meals a hot dog with a topper of semen but here you are man so close to badge of honor

2:10:28Sean Fennessey:I can't it's in the it's in the Berndtahl zone where I can't make eye contact with you when you start doing it you transform it's a full body have you ever watched the Zane interview? yeah because of Chris oh he encouraged it the same. No, I didn't tell you you have to watch a Zane interview, did I? You tell me to do lots of things. It's weird because I was, when Zane interviewing Adele or whatever was happening during Cranlon and Juliet and Chris were both so into it, they would show it to me and I'd be like, this is nothing to me. I don't know what is interesting about this. It's fine. It's an interview of an artist.

2:11:03Sean Fennessey:They were just walking around the office with a computer showing it to different people hoping to connect. But what you've done with it, you've transformed. And today, the return of that It's just fucking playing hello. Just won Oscar. Who gets it? Dante Spinotti. Yeah, he fucking blacked out here. The cinematographer. Chris explained it so well, I thought, which is like, this movie doesn't look like it's trying to be a 50s movie. It looks like it's trying to be a 90s movie. Titanic won. Yeah, this movie actually won two Oscars and lost seven, and it lost all seven to Titanic.

2:11:39Andy Greenwald:Oof. Tough beat. Dante has an incredible, incredible CV where he's also known as working as being the primary DP for Michael Mann and Brett Ratner.

2:11:50Sean Fennessey:Yes, he shot parts of Melania.

2:11:52Andy Greenwald:He did Manhunter and X-Men The Last Stand. I think I read a Q &A with him about Melania where they were like, what are you doing? And he was like, I'm a working journalist.

2:12:00Sean Fennessey:He's interviewed by The New Yorker about it. And he wouldn't blink. He was like, yeah, I took the job. I'd take it again.

2:12:05Andy Greenwald:He is, I believe, how old is he? He's currently 84, 85?

2:12:12Bill Simmons:it's a very well shot documentary probably answerable questions

2:12:16Sean Fennessey:so you haven't finished Babylon but you have completed Melania I didn't finish Melania either

2:12:23Bill Simmons:I did watch the first 20 minutes but you haven't watched Gaslit by my husband to completion Gaslit by my husband when's the sequel she's gotta remarry and have it happen again probably answerable questions actually like a whiff maybe maybe there's something going on there with him and Bud? What does Lin say? You can't fuck Bud by fucking me? That was, I thought the talent also, like, he was really, now, granted, Lin looks great. Yeah. But it's the only time he's interested in that the entire movie and it seems directly because of some sort of weird Bud thing, but I think that's true. I don't know.

2:12:58Sean Fennessey:It kind of, by not having him take care of Inez, like, it also undercuts a little bit of his White Knight kind of, like, presentation in the book.

2:13:06Bill Simmons:I just thought that whole part was weird. And then, this is the biggest one to me, Is it a better movie if Bud just dies? Do we need to see him again?

2:13:15Sean Fennessey:It's kind of related to my unanswerable, which was what was Bud White going to do to support Lynn in Arizona? Or what was Lynn going to do to support Bud?

2:13:22Andy Greenwald:The dress store. She's going to do the dress store. So she's going to pay for the... He's been shot like multiple times.

2:13:27Bill Simmons:This year's the Watanaya Award. What are they doing in Phoenix? He's got a hole in his face. This is what I wondered.

2:13:32Andy Greenwald:Like former call girl. Is the implication that he can't speak anymore? That's in the book. He can't talk anymore.

2:13:37Bill Simmons:Yeah. Wow. and he's really surviving the two gunshots and then the one right to the face from five feet away that felt like a note it wasn't a note but it felt like what we gotta have is like the three good people in this movie handshake at the end were you surprised to see him in the car at the end? yeah that was my flex the Clarence Worley should have died I do think he should have died it would have been better for his character go down a hero showing him in the car I think the whole ending I felt a little deflated at the end her line at the end is like some guys get the girl or whatever some guys get the world The others get an ex-hooker and a trip to Arizona and then you see Russell Crowe.

2:14:12I do feel like it kind of deflated a little bit.

2:14:15Bill Simmons:I think Aaron Rodgers said that to Mike Tomlin when the Steelers fell apart. He's coming back. There's a case that this movie could just end at the hotel and we don't even need the last scenes. Yeah, the badge. We definitely don't need the psycho ending with him explaining the entire plot to all the cops. That's Elroy. Every Elroy book is like there was a five, 10-page scene of like they find the one guy who can explain everything and he does. Is that the all-time why did you add this scene? The psycho? Yeah. Person? Like just get that scene out of there. Turn the movie off as soon as people listening who haven't seen Psycho.

2:14:54Bill Simmons:During the big attempted murder scene at the end, just end the movie.

2:15:00Sean Fennessey:I've gone back and forth on the Psycho one. Maybe we can save it for the Psycho episode, but I think... Is that going to be a Psycho episode? I love that movie. That would be great if you want to do Psycho. I love Psycho.

2:15:08Andy Greenwald:I like the way you acted as if you didn't just suggest it. Oh, you guys want to do Psycho? Well, I never actually thought we would make a film. He did the Sean thing. He planted the suggestion

2:15:15Sean Fennessey:and then made the other person think they thought of it. But it's 1960. We don't do movies that far back historically, but I would love to do that. But there's two things. Running out of movies

2:15:24Bill Simmons:now that we've done CR month. Vertigo.

2:15:26Sean Fennessey:Don't you want to do Vertigo? Yeah, Vertigo. We've talked about for a while. But that's like the horny CR, horny Bill Hall thing too. Speaking of cutting women to look like other women, That's a part of Vertigo as well. That's not like a big pastime of mine is cutting women to make them look like E. Fowler in Copland. The psycho thing, the thing about psycho is the psychiatrist explaining Norman Bates, that part is terrible. That's what I mean. But the cutaway to Norman at the end with the fly and him like the voice in his head, that part is great.

2:15:54Bill Simmons:I was talking about the doctor explaining for four minutes. I had a probably answer. What do you got? Do you think it would be more entertaining if Shams adopted Sid's writing style? Word around the form is that Luca's Slovenian sweetheart Has taken his kids back to the motherland But while the baby mama is away The cat will average 34 points a game Hashtag Shams Hush hush

2:16:20Sean Fennessey:Again Shams is now portrayed by Robert Loggia Which is problematic Why is that problematic?

2:16:27Bill Simmons:Can we add Shams to the Wayne Jenkins St. Lowe category? But Shams Hudgens This is great This is what Shams needed. Yeah. Rebrand. A little boost. Instead of him going on first take in these shows, that could be his little video thing. Everybody in Boston is talking about whether the two Js will be able to share the ball and what it means for the two Ps Peyton Pritchard.

2:16:54Of the dome.

2:16:55Bill Simmons:Hashtag Shams. Why is this Robert Loesch? It's Robert Loesch as Shams as the... As the Shams guy. That's my Danny DeVito voice. Is that weird? You can do better than that.

2:17:10Bill Simmons:Workshop. That's good. Secret Handshake Club memorabilia and one from this movie. It's got to be the Night Owl coffee mug, right? I have Roller Tomasi. I guess, is that too big? What is it, though? I don't know, because sometimes I don't understand the Secret Handshake Club. No, it's memorabilia. It has to be something I can show. Oh, it's specifically memorabilia. Yeah, Night Owl. You've got to be the night owl.

2:17:29Andy Greenwald:The whole word that we could each share, and if one of us is killed...

2:17:32Bill Simmons:That's pretty good. We should come up with that. There wasn't like, was there matches from the Victory Hotel? I didn't see that.

2:17:38Sean Fennessey:I had Jack Vincennes tortoiseshell sunglasses, which I think are sick. But this is different than memorabilia.

2:17:46Bill Simmons:It's memorabilia, but it's secret handshake memorabilia. Gotcha. Okay, so my... If I just had a night owl coffee mug and you were like, is that LA Confidential? It's like one of those. Like you almost have to like get it. So you haven't seen me leaving Fleur de Lee business cards at your house then? Fleur de Lee business cards. That'd be another one. I got a good one. The opening scene of the movie, the opening montage, they show you a Hush Hush magazine cover that says the line that DeVito says in the beginning of the movie of Anjanu Dykes in Hollywood. You could, that would be mine. The Hush Hush magazine.

2:18:17Sean Fennessey:Where would you leave that? Around your home? Just among a stack of regular magazines. Just imagining Bill getting Anjanu Dykes in Hollywood served to him on Netflix.

2:18:26Bill Simmons:I'm searching for it tonight on eBay. And just be like, all right, I was going to watch Babylon, but fuck it. The brutalist is too long. You guys laugh. Put on Gaslight by my husband. Get gaslit. Give it 10 minutes. And see if you're still watching. It would be a good bit for you, Sean. See it on Letterboxd.

2:18:45Sean Fennessey:Start logging it. Is there a sequel to this? It would be funny if you just logged it out of nowhere. I'll watch it. Look, I'll watch anything. I don't care.

2:18:52Bill Simmons:It was number one on Netflix. That had my attention. Coach Finstock, Mr. Miyagi were a best worst life lesson. Some men get the world. Others get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona. It's a pretty good life lesson. Best double feature choice, we all have Chinatown.

2:19:05Sean Fennessey:Who Framed Roger Rabbit? Which is similarly a movie about this period in history. Post-war detectives trying to solve a big cover-up, but also kind of a parable about the building of the highways and who controls the ways and means of the city.

2:19:22Andy Greenwald:What noir would you put up with this? In a Lonely Place?

2:19:25Sean Fennessey:That's a great one. That one's a little Hollywood inside baseball. I like Touch of Evil for that. That's good. Not an L.A. movie. I would also say, as a kind of museum piece more than an enjoyable movie, the Brian De Palma's Black Dahlia, which there is now legendarily a director's cut. I don't know if that's true or not. Are there Dahlia heads out there? I mean, Black Dahlia is an incredible novel.

2:19:48Bill Simmons:I'm saying for the movie. I think there are people who are like, there's a secret director's cut that would be better. Holding that hope. Yeah.

2:19:55Sean Fennessey:So I think a really good semi-classic noir, not as seen as some of the best known ones that would be good for this is The Blue Dahlia, which is, features Veronica Lake, Alan Ladd is the star. It's about a guy who comes home from World War II and takes a trip to Los Angeles. And it's the only original screenplay that Raymond Chandler ever wrote. And he was nominated for an Academy Award for it. And it's like, it's a pretty good movie. It's not considered on that, like Bogart class of noirs, but I really like it.

2:20:23Bill Simmons:I have a double feature guest slip by my husband. That's good. Good choice. I'd watch it first though, and then go in LA competition and step up. In Lonely Place. In Lonely Place. But it wasn't good enough. Who won the movie?

2:20:35Andy Greenwald:I remember it. No, you guys are turning at each other. I forgot. I've been praying for it for two hours. Who won the movie? Curtis Hansen.

2:20:46Andy Greenwald:Come back to me. I actually think they're in Helgoland. I feel like I feel like Crowe has been minimized. We have not talked about You might be right. Crowe is the answer. who kind of won this movie.

2:20:58Bill Simmons:Crow wins the movie because it sets up 10 years of Russell Crowe being one of the biggest stars we have and a feeling it has to start with this

2:21:06Andy Greenwald:it still matters like as little as it happens where it's like you go to a movie and you don't really know this person you leave the movie only talking about this person yeah that's true and being like oh this is a new it's a new it's a new it's a breakout this is what are we going to do with this next how are we going to see him next who's going to harness this rage in this surprisingly modest frame I also think he needs it

2:21:26Bill Simmons:for the IMDB like just a collage of work this is a good one to throw in there and then he's got Gladiator and of course everything peaks with Beautiful Life but then Beautiful Mind the writers just keeps going it's like an unadaptable book and they made a great script out of it alright here we go producer Craig what do you got I don't want to get crushed for this I liked it I didn't love it I liked it I didn't love it and I do it's always tough every time I listen to you guys by the end of it I'm like wow and maybe that was way better than I thought. But in the moment, I thought the lead three actors were great.

2:22:02I thought the story was really interesting. I don't know. It felt just like a little cheesy to me. And the dialogue, I had trouble with a lot of the dialogue. And I don't know if it's just great actors, tough dialogue, or if that is kind of the style of the noir 50s world they're building and that's the way it's supposed to be. But when it wasn't Pierce or Russell Crowe or Spacey and it was like the DeVito or the Kim Basinger

2:22:24Bill Simmons:mixed in with some of the dialogue, I had trouble kind of like fully getting my hands dirty with it. That's when you're on Steward's mock drafts? No, I was locked in the whole time. I pay attention.

2:22:34Andy Greenwald:There are a couple lines that are a little clunkier than I remember them being. Like when Exley's trying to get Jack to go and Jack's like, are you ready to pay the consequences? Which I don't think is something you say or do. And then I started, after I watched the movie, I was reading some stuff and then I was like, oh wow, this is, Library of Congress is saving this movie, preserving this film and everyone's like, greatest movie ever made. and I was like,

2:22:56Bill Simmons:oh, maybe I'm missing something and I need to watch it again. I mean, I see what he's saying. You're younger. I think it's a second watch movie. I think the second time when you don't, you're not so worried about following every single thing that's happening and you're just watching it for the actors and the choices. It's a different movie. But not only is it a 30-year-old movie, but the lexicon of the film is 75 years ago. So it's like basically a Western to you.

2:23:21Andy Greenwald:My thing, when I saw the movie, I was relatively film illiterate of old movies and I hadn't seen the noirs that it was influenced by and so my relationship with this movie has deepened because of what it sent me back to. That was probably how I felt about Chinatown when I saw it where I was like this is so incredible and then you go back and watch 40s and 50s movies and you're like well the style of the acting and the style of the performance.

2:23:40Bill Simmons:One thing that's noteworthy is a lot of people have tried and failed to make movies like this. Oh like Gangster Squad. I think this is one of the high degree of difficulty. Oh I could see what they were going for but that just didn't work or they cast the wrong person or they didn't have the feel for it.

2:23:57Andy Greenwald:It's only a couple that have actually made it. Or it tried to be about too much. Like this is going to the TV point. Like the smartest decision they made was the one that was harshest maybe for Elroy Superheads, which is if it's not about these three guys and their journey with this one case, it's not in the movie.

2:24:11Bill Simmons:What was that one Affleck made? It was in LA, but it was in the mid-2010s. They lived by night. The gangster movie. Oh, the Deadland. Hollywood. No, I'm talking about it was set in They Live by Night. Oh, Live by Night. Live by Night. Live by Night. but that's an example of like when you go way back and you're really going for it that's the 30s right? yeah good book I like Affleck I don't know if that movie totally worked

2:24:32Sean Fennessey:but Hollywoodland would actually be an interesting double feature with this because that's sort of about a similar a few years later in the mid late 50s this is a movie where I fully just copped to having on my 15 year old glasses where I in 97 you went through some of the movies like I made a much longer list of movies all of which I tried to see or saw in movie theaters that like totally switched me on. I was voraciously consuming movie magazines at this time. It was the game. It was Cronenberg's Crash is that year. Contact is that year. Private Parts, the Howard Stern movie, Night Falls on Manhattan, the Lumet movie.

2:25:08Sean Fennessey:I Know What You Did Last Summer, Wag the Dog. We mentioned In and Out. In the Company of Men was a huge movie that year. Event Horizon, Liar Liar. Like all of those movies, I was really just starting to go crazy. at the perfect time. I'm going every Friday.

2:25:25Bill Simmons:Same thing. That's why I still support Karate Kid, all those, Purple Rain, Inspector Todd. Yeah, 15, I think, is the key movie year. I even saw it happen with my son a little bit. Your brain has just developed enough that you can start actually understanding movies and you think you're smarter than you are.

2:25:43Sean Fennessey:And this movie is really a good, like, you're a grown-up now? Yes, that's exactly right. But it'll be interesting to watch Ben's taste develop because we had video stories and what was in the theaters. Ben has everything that's ever been made like at his fingertips.

2:25:57Bill Simmons:When are we going to have, maybe Zane can interview Ben. Ben, you fell in love with Kubrick. So when you see Project Hail Mary, you're seeing a copy of a copy. That's it for CR Month. Yeah. Wow. We did it. Five movies in a mailbag. Unbelievable. Thanks, guys. What a month. Craig's favorite rewatchables month, I think. A lot of bangers. I'm sorry I couldn't close it out strong for you, but it's okay man. I had a great time. What were the highlights? Definitely Matt Reynolds' last meal.

2:26:29The highlights were getting to finally do Sicario and getting to podcast with my guys. What do you think of all this?

2:26:36Sean Fennessey:As someone who's known him longer than anybody. What does that mean?

2:26:38Andy Greenwald:Well, no, I think it's...

2:26:40Sean Fennessey:You should ask that like Zane. What do you think of the oddest?

2:26:44Andy Greenwald:Every month of my life for the last 30 years has been CR month so it's just nice to see everyone else catch up. Did you guys know each other when this movie came out? Yes. Yeah, this is our 30th anniversary this year. Oh, that's sweet. Unbelievable. But we didn't see this movie together. No. He was probably at parties. 97? I was probably going to see later.

2:27:02Bill Simmons:CR, who would you hold Good Son style if they're both hanging on a cliff and you had to save one? You only had the strength to save one. Of Greenwald and Sean? Yeah. It's a tough question. All right. I've lived a full life. Save it for April. I'm fine. I'm younger. Yeah. Sean has more to give. my mom is furious that we didn't do any in the cruisers well we could still do it are you now holding it hostage for the next CR month no yeah will there be another CR month I think every March should be CR month I don't know why we wouldn't do that I'll compete with March Madness yeah it's kind of it's Patino and CR

2:27:35Andy Greenwald:I'm glad that it's a 31 day month it's not like Women's History Month being like February this is good we crammed five

2:27:41Bill Simmons:but that was one of the reasons we did I mean the next when we do From Hell month I think that's going to be the peak of the rewatch You do? Yeah. Do you have like a... I was scouting Breakdown. Oh, fuck. Can we do Perfect Getaway from Hell? No.

2:27:57Sean Fennessey:Okay. That's noir.

2:28:00Bill Simmons:Wait, is Breakdown... The Timothy Orl fan?

2:28:02Sean Fennessey:The Breakdown from Hell?

2:28:03Bill Simmons:Trucker from Hell. But isn't that Duel? No, but Breakdown's different. I mean, I love Breakdown,

2:28:09Sean Fennessey:and I love JT Walsh.

2:28:11Bill Simmons:Breakdown's insane.

2:28:12Sean Fennessey:I'm a huge fan. Another similar Curtis Hansen style guy, Jonathan Mostow made that one.

2:28:19Bill Simmons:My favorite one that's on the From Hell Month schedule is Domestic Disturbance with John Travolta and Vince Vaughn. Evil stepfather.

2:28:27Andy Greenwald:I don't remember this at all.

2:28:28Bill Simmons:Who's the evil stepfather? Vince Vaughn is the evil second husband to Terry Polo. Oh. And John Travolta is the first husband. And he thinks something's up with this guy. You guys didn't notice that? There's something up with this guy. Is Domestic Disturbance Harold Becker? I think it is. I think that the perfect getaway is from hell it's the people we meet on vacation from hell oh you're talking about the Steve Zahn one oh yeah yeah

2:28:54Andy Greenwald:I like that movie I love that movie it's a good one good little you familiar with that one Andy? no I love this is like scene under the hood it's a really good twist this is how it gets made don't spoil it good Hawaii movie it's a good Hawaii movie get to go on location which one is this? perfect getaway with Steve Zahn Timothy Oliphant and Mila Jovovich you've told me about this film we should go to Hawaii record it there Could we do a live show in Hawaii? Get Neffed Out? Yeah. Sounds great.

2:29:19Bill Simmons:It's the greatest place on earth. So please. It really is. It sounds awesome. All right. CR Month. Thanks to Craig Krollbeck. Thanks, guys. Thanks for letting me celebrate. Thanks to Gahao and Eduardo as well and everybody else at The Ringer. Great to be in here in the studio. We'll do... Anytime we have three or less, we're doing my studio. Yeah. It's just more... But I thought for four, I thought this was good. How did it feel?

2:29:38Andy Greenwald:It felt great. It's like riding a bike.

2:29:41Bill Simmons:You can listen to CR and 80 on The Watch. Sean on Big Picture. and we'll see you in April and then we'll watch this.

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