‘Law Abiding Citizen’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Craig Horlbeck

21:49I could throw some jokes. Oh, I'm sorry.

21:50Bill Simmons:I didn't realize I could have made fun of the podcast. This movie was directed by F. Gary Gray. Right. Who we just did another F. Gary Gray movie. How many weeks ago? Yeah, what was it? It was Italian Job. Yeah, F. Gary Gray. Italian Job. You know what I thought about? I like F. Gary Gray. You do? I think his movies have like a splashy style to them. It's a little like Discount Michael Bay. Sure. Not over the top like Michael Bay is but same kind of just you feel him. Good explosions. Good music in the right spots. Good music is skill and cool. He's trying some stuff. It's not plain. Good director.

22:31Bill Simmons:Written by Kurt Wimmer. We have people like Bruce McGill and Calm Meany. I think I said his name correctly. He's another Scottish guy. Leslie Bibb. Regina Hall is the wife with really no role at all in the movie. Just a couple lines. $53 million budget. it made$127.9 million. It's pretty good. Yeah, it's good. I somehow didn't see this in the theater. I don't know what was going on with me. Yeah, this was the Arclight phase where I was just going to see, I was just like making excuses to go in. Yeah, this was right in my wheelhouse. It's not like I didn't want to go see this in the theater. And it was interesting because both of these guys were kind of still in their assances.

23:08We were still kind of in the Jamie assance. We were definitely in the Butler assance. So it was like putting these guys together. I was like, what are they going to cook up? Well, because this was Gerard Butler's first movie after 300?

23:18Bill Simmons:No, he did a couple of rom-coms. But it was like, he's going to have a moment right now. I don't know. Who is Gerard Butler right now? I mean, state? You mean... No, I'm saying right... Like the younger version. Early 30s, mid-30s. People want it to happen. Really, they don't have any Gerard Butlers right now. Because the guys, our guys right now, the grizzled white boy of that age is not around. Everyone's a little prettier now. Everybody's a little prettier now. You can't say Glenn Powell because Glenn Powell's not really the same vibe. He's going for the Tom Cruise thing. Yeah. It's funny because I was thinking for recasting, if this movie was 2026, MBJ would clearly be the lawyer.

23:58Bill Simmons:And then I was trying to think who would be Butler and I was trying to workshop Glenn Powell as the guy and I was like, I just think he's too likable. But you didn't see... Bartlett has a little bit of a dark side where you feel like some bad shit's happened to him 20 years ago. Yeah, you like... Glenn almost went for that in Running Man. didn't really work. It didn't work. It's more you just want to hang with them. Very shocking. It's an interesting point though that we don't have a lot of like gruff male up and coming stars like that now. It's two buckets that are missing. Number one, the and this might sound stupid but like the 30, 35 year old, 40 year old like really Italian American star that like does like the Moff like the De Niro the guys like that.

24:44De Niro for now. Like those guys like that. And then you also don't have the man's man guy. I thought that Miles Teller, I always thought that Miles Teller would like kind of jump into that, that Miles Teller kind of brought that, but kind of... When he got jacked in Top Gun Maverick.

24:57Bill Simmons:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because basically you're saying a guy who could play a cop in a buddy movie, a guy who could play this guy in Law Abiding Citizen, and a guy who could be in a rom-com. Solve himself for the rom-com. So those three, you have to be able to have those three moves. Yeah, someone where when you see them in prison and they're ripped and they're beating the shit out of somebody, you believe it. Like Brad Pitt would have been awesome in this movie Yeah Right And there's not We're not making like Brad Pitt's in the same way Well Brad Pitt also He's so pretty though And his star brings so much But he can do his ugly Brad Pitt He can But he would have elevated this movie to a point To where you'd have had to bring in Martin Scorsese To direct this bitch Like he would have It's like Brad Pitt's version of this movie Is way way up the escalator I like your idea that this was Kind of a discount feature movie Yeah like if he went bankrupt if he'd been in the Bertie Madoff thing and he needed a job yeah he'd be like alright I'll do law I'll make law abiding citizen cool cause there's a couple moments that are pretty smart in this movie but overall it's not as slick as it thinks it is it's just like I just think the script isn't as good as it could be to actually get to that point where you're like wow this is a Fincher level kind of action well like the game is like this right the game landed the ending yes this is just not quite there like the dialogue is just not quite there to be an elevated movie But the thing about the game, though— But it's there to be a rewatchable.

26:17The thing about the game, though, is that movie is a little too smart for some people. Like, some people feel like that movie's a little high concept. It's like a riddle. Yeah, this film didn't want to be too smart for people, but it also didn't want to be too dumb for them. Yeah. So it alienated everybody. Is it Austin Butler? I know he's kind of—he can kind of play it both ways. A little bit, but, like, not still—we'll see.

26:38Bill Simmons:Maybe. We'll see. I never know, because you never would have told me—I never would have believed Keanu could have been for John Wicks. Right. Never saw that at any point in his career, that that arc could happen. So sometimes people can surprise you. This surprised me. Ebert, three stars. Liked it. He wrote, Law-Abiding Citizen is one of those movies you like more at the time than in retrospect. I mean, come on, you're thinking. Still, there's something to be said for a movie you like well enough at the time. So I think he had a good time at the Arclight. I think he probably did. I respect that.

27:13Now, did he write that? then or did you have a right a couple of days ago? You knew I was going to get you back. Are you a truther with this? Oh, he can't make fun of you now? Oh, I can't make fun of you now?

27:26Bill Simmons:You can't make fun of me now? My Roger Ebert character that I created? There's very few movies to Roger Ebert's point about in the moment. The second I finished this movie, I did just go into the bedroom and I was like, Liz, I got to tell you about this movie for like 15 minutes. I just described the whole movie to her. That's the type of movie that it is. And somebody actually said that in another review that I read. Someone said, it's the type of movie that right after you come out of it, you're going to be like, I fucking loved it. But then you're going to sit with it for a while, and you're going to be like, wait a minute.

27:55Bill Simmons:I watched it with my wife and Ben, because Ben had never seen it. And Ben really liked it. My wife was like, this is terrible. I can't believe how bad this is. What the hell is going on? And then when Leslie Bibb's car blew up, she was like, wow! I was like, oh, you're in. You got sucked in. We're going to take a break, and then we're going to do rewatchables. This episode is brought to you by Ethos. As a parent, life insurance feels like a no-brainer. It just gives me peace of mind knowing my family will be taken care of and Ethos makes getting it fast and easy. Apply online in minutes. Get up to 3 million in coverage with no medical exam.

28:31Bill Simmons:Just a few simple health questions. Take 10 minutes to get covered today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com slash rewatch. That is E-T-H-O-S dot com slash rewatch. Application times may vary. Rates may vary. This episode is brought to you by Sleep Doctor. Let's say a good sleep is wildly underrated. You can do everything right, eat well, work out, sleep seven or eight hours, and still feel exhausted. If you snore, wake up tired, or crash during the day, it might be worth looking into. Sleep Doctor offers an at-home sleep study done in your own bed. They accept most insurance plans, so you can pay as little as zero dollars.

29:11Bill Simmons:Visit sleepdoctor.com. Most rewatchable scene. I had a surprising amount of them. Jamie Foxx's character meets Clyde. Why didn't he want to try the case? I'm not putting the opening scene as a rewatchable scene. That seems... Yeah, I think we can stay away from that one. Fox didn't want to try the case. Home invasion, murdered little girl, rape. Not interested. Just wants to plea bargain this thing. What's going on? What happened to the DNA evidence? Oh, it wasn't admissible. It wasn't? You have a witness You have You have I'm sure All kinds of fluids And blood This What How is this case Not provable There are some crazy Picking this For this movie This is beyond a picking net But this is He's explaining it I'm like what You can't try the case This is one You have An eyewitness You have DNA He's like You blacked out You can't be an eyewitness This is one of And this is one of The most Detestable scenes Yes In a movie that I love Because he is sitting down here telling this man who has been through hell and back why he can't give him justice.

30:15Bill Simmons:This guy watched his wife get raped and his daughter get killed. He's like, yeah, yeah, we're just going to plea bargain this. This is a victory. What the fuck are you talking about? Get the fuck out of my face. And he shakes his hand. Yeah, are there not fluids, DNA, fingernails, hair? Wouldn't it be everywhere? Right. It's not what you know, Clyde. It's what you can prove in court. Well, you have a witness and evidence. I was right there when they broke in. And he's two scumbags. and he said this is just how the justice system works. This is a victory for us. After this scene, you're like, I want this guy to kill literally everybody involved.

30:49Bill Simmons:Just kill all of them. I don't know if I'm a dark person, but my next rewatchable scene is the lethal injection scene gone wrong. It's a good scene. It's a good scene. And in general, lethal injection movie scenes, you always feel like it's never going to go something weird is always going to happen. it feels like. I don't think I've ever seen a lethal injection scene. I was kind of morbidly curious about how it went. I actually had no real sense of how it would go. Do people, do like 10 people go watch it? Yeah, they do. Really? Some of the police people and then family of the victims. Victims, families, and stuff like that, they'll go check it out.

31:26Why do the police need to be there?

31:28Bill Simmons:I guess to make sure it happened. I don't know. They worked the case? I don't know. I just found it fascinating that Jamie Foxx was like, hey, Leslie Bibb, let's go watch this. Like, why did she need to see that? It's even better. He missed his daughter's violin recital. He's like, I gotta go. Bro, this is the thing. This guy sucks. This guy sucks, bro. This guy, this is the thing. We're going back and forth from a cello recital with his daughter to him choosing to go watch somebody get fucking executed for no reason. Don't have to be there for no reason whatsoever. He's like, sorry, babe. I gotta go.

31:57You know I'm busy tonight. By the way, this is one of my favorite tropes in movies when we get to the Floyd Award later. Yeah. When, like, something traumatic has to happen. for a guy to be a father. To care about his wife and kids? I didn't want to go to my kids' Little League game until after the terrorist attack. It took 25 innocent civilians getting murdered to go to his daughter's cello. At the end of the movie, you see him going,

32:20Bill Simmons:good fix, Junior. I can fix it. I'm a human being now. Darby finally goes down as our next rewatchable scene. Perfectly executed by Clyde. You have a feeling he's doing it? Especially when there's a cop who's passed out in a... Whatever, but he plays this fantastically. Great cameo by Darby's, I guess, side piece. Just slumped on the ground. Couldn't be grosser in every respect. Why is she illegal, by the way? He goes, you're fucked. Dope on the table. Bitch on the ground. I'm like, why is she illegal? He can't fuck? Is that one of the terms of his parole? Darby goes, and then the gun reveal. So good.

33:01I've never seen that in a movie. Now we in the shit. the moment because they don't do the thing where they try to hide that it's him you can see that it's him so you know that the surprise is coming somewhere else so it's gotta be a pretty good surprise so when he shoots the gun and the barbs come out now the movie has fucking started

33:21Bill Simmons:tetroditoxin found in pufferfish that blocked nerve singles by binding to voltage gated sodium channels who figured that out

33:34Bill Simmons:What was the trial? How did it get there? I'm surprised Belichick didn't use it on the football Patriots. I looked it up. It's real. Like it paralyzes you but you still feel pain. I'm like how the fuck did they figure that out? The puffer fish probably hit a couple people. Sure. Or an animal and they were like some sick fuckwit. We could take what the puffer fish does and then do it to a person. It's the only thing missing in downtown LA right now are some puffer fish. Clyde pretending to confess to Jamie Foxx's character. What's his? Nick. Nick, yeah. Clyde pretending to confess to Nick, but doesn't actually confess, which weirdly this movie is totally watchable.

34:13Bill Simmons:When you're rewatching it and you watch how he does the dialogue and he's nodding, but he's not confessing. So he's like, yeah, I did dream about potentially murdering, but he doesn't actually admit that he murdered. Foxx is so stupid he falls for it. So here's the deal. I feel like a smarter movie lets that whole scene play out. Then all of these things start happening. I totally agree. And then they come back to that and he goes, well, did I actually confess? Yeah. Instead, he's like, he does this whole spiel and then literally five seconds go by. He's like, you see what I did there, Nick? Like, all right.

34:50Right away. Yeah. Right away after he does the whole dance, he tells him that he didn't really mean it and he doesn't have anything on him. It's just too straightforward. This is where it's like discount Fincher. Because then Fincher would be like an hour later. Yeah. The confession would come back and they're... Or he's dropping a coffee cup. They're listening to the tape and they're like, oh, he actually never said... He actually never... Or somebody else tells him. He's like, I got the guy in confession. He goes, what'd you get, Nick? What the fuck did you get? The guy never says anything. And then that happens later on and it spurns on the third half.

35:17Well, then he goes...

35:17Bill Simmons:That sets up talking to the judge, which I love because he says the title of the movie. Your Honor, I'm a law-abiding citizen. It's like, boom. But then he gets mad at her. He goes, you're about to let me go. Are you fucking kidding me? And we're like, oh. Calls her a bitch. She starts banging the gavel. You probably take it in the ass. Bro, that's fucking hysterical, though. I mean, that should not be funny. But he's like, you fucking bitch. You probably take it up the ass. I'm like, what? You're like, what's wrong with that? She can do that if she wants. Why are you judging her? Why are you judging her for that?

35:56Literally judging the judge.

35:58Bill Simmons:Next scene might be my pick. I'm sorry. That's so funny. He's so mad, bro. Fucking bitch. You probably take it up. I'm sorry. Get the paw back on track. This is so fucked up. Well, now we're in the jail cell. Yeah. He's ordering from Del Frisco Steakhouse and his new mattress with his big burly cellmate and is just eating a steak as he's setting these dudes up. he gave him a spork which then he proceeds to stab this dude 20 times Bangkok Craig loved this scene he makes the shiv out of the bone in the steak that's what he stabs him with I thought it was the spork he ordered the steak because he knows he can make a shiv out of the bone how did I miss this when I've seen this movie 9 times I'm as stupid as Jamie Foxx's character I thought it was the spork no no no he used the bone that's part of like how ingenious he is yeah that's why he orders the steak so he can get the bone he's like ripping off the meat to give to the guy but he's keeping the bone well he stabs the guy 20 times with it blood goes absolutely everywhere and he's playing an iPad and he's playing Eminence Front and whatever else is going on that is I guess I should have known that that wasn't a sport yeah I mean powerful sport I don't know but that is later in picking nits that is the

37:26can you really stab somebody 20 times with a spork now i feel better it was it was a that is the part in the movie like when because this movie wants to keep you confused and for a lot of time it does but like when i was first watching it that was the part to where i was most confused because i was like what kind of movie do we have if he kills that guy that guy and what's the purpose yeah why is he doing this is he just hate having a cellmate what's going on And it's clever when he wants to be moved to solitary for a specific reason.

37:55Bill Simmons:What you didn't realize is that he spent the last eight years digging tunnels under the jail to every single cell perfectly so that whatever cell he went into. I could have used a flashback of the 10 years of him preparing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. At some point, he's explaining it and you're seeing it as it happens. Yeah, I spent 10 years digging tunnels, making my plan, rigging cell phones. I would have been cool to see that. But at that point in the movie, though, you now know he doesn't care who he hurts. It's not just going to be the people involved. It's going to be a lot of collateral damage.

38:27Bill Simmons:Next scene is the cell phone blows the judge up. This is an all-timer. My favorite scene in the movie. Out of fucking nowhere. And she's kind of feeling it. She's talking about... She's getting ready for the weekend. They're not subtle with the messaging of the movie, where the line right before her head blows up is like, I'm a judge. I can do whatever the fuck I want. And then her head blows up. So, you know, the movie's trying to tell you, like, Justice Department, thumbs down. That is horror movie level shock. I, like, jumped out of my seat. I almost texted you guys again. Because I texted you once after the first scene of the movie saying, like, holy shit.

39:03Right. And this one is the next huge jump scare. We're watching the movie. We're sitting down. It happens. And Khalifa just goes, uh-uh. And gets up and walks out of the back. Like, you said this before.

39:16Bill Simmons:she's like I can't do this on a Wednesday I'm out well so she missed the next scene which is when he blows up everyone in the parking lot including poor Leslie Bibb who's 35 who's given up her career and probably will never have kids to serve Jamie Foxx and now gets to blow up in a car why did Jamie Foxx make everybody go to the office at 6am to wait and see if they might die great question yeah you know he was like 6am it's going to happen and they're all just in the office why aren't they home? Why aren't they like in a park? Why aren't they as far apart as possible? I would have been in like Mexico.

39:52Yeah. Why are they all staring at the clock?

39:54Bill Simmons:It's like oh my dad my dad's having a procedure I gotta fly to Boston I'll see you guys in two weeks. Why is the DA like on the beat of the case like this in the first place? Why is the DA in a chopper going all to this place? Why is all of this happening? Is that like Are there any other crimes in Philadelphia? Yeah like why is the DA the one he's like the grizzled detective on this. I felt really bad for Leslie Bibb. That scene where she opens both doors and she realizes she can't get out and she kind of gives Nick a look. Pretty brutal. Yeah. I didn't expect it. I have something to say later on.

40:28Bill Simmons:Okay. Maybe find a husband so that you don't blow up alone. Is that what you're going to say? We'll see. The funeral scene. Really great. The drone gun and you don't know who's... At that point the movie makes you think he's getting help from the outside, there's a second person. Yeah. Right? Because nobody would ever think he could just be sneaking in and out of whatever. But that guy Jonas gets shot like nine times and then blown up by a grenade launcher. I do like the... I like the finishing touch of the rocket at the end. Second, are we sure he's dead? Blows him up. I wrote down the first 80 minutes of this movie is just elite.

41:10Bill Simmons:Yeah. This is the 80-minute mark. This is like... Basically, like, They've taken us almost to the finish line. Now just run a good play, score your touchdown and go home. But now we find out that he tunneled into prison. That's the next scene. And then the last one is Nick confronts Clyde. I don't make deals with murderers, Clyde. You taught me that. They both should have blown up. But they give themselves 25 seconds to leave. I like the almost operatic beauty of watching the fire slowly rise around him while he looks at his daughter's. Yeah, while he looks at the bracelet that his daughter made for him.

41:51So what's your most rewatchable? Cell phone? My most rewatchable is the cell phone easily, but also Nick and Clyde's first interrogation scene is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. Good you have. Because Butler's cooking. Cell phone, but honorable mention, we didn't even mention the torture scene. Bangkok Craig loved the torture scene. I bet you did. When he's explaining everything he's doing to Darby, when he unveils... Puts the ceiling mirror. When the mirror comes down, he's fucking crazy. He's like, I'm going to cut your eyelids off so you can't close your eyes. It's so hard to watch.

42:17My wife, the kids want to watch. Yeah. He's recording it. I'm like, why is he recording it? He sends the tape to Nick's house.

42:24Bill Simmons:Really tough. Mine is... I like the cellmate. I like the cell phone. And I like the parking lot. That whole stretch is fantastic. That's where it's like... We're past... Dan Campbell's like going for it. 4th and 38 at this point. You don't even know where it's going. What's the most 2009 thing about this movie? It's got to be a crucial iPod scene. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Two years later, no way this happens, right? Because everything comes You have a phone at that. Yeah, yeah. This is kind of the end of the iPod. It's like one of those big fat ones. And you had to plug it into the big speakers. I also had no social media in place to be outraged by the plea bargain for the two killers.

43:05Bill Simmons:I feel like that would have been a big thing on Twitter right can you fucking believe it this guy's fucking trash this guy, why wouldn't he try the case they definitely did it well, that's what I have the existence of true crime would have completely changed this movie right, they would have done documentary about this by the way, the documentary about Clyde after he did all the stuff he did that's 10 parts on Netflix after Clyde did all of this Clyde's gonna be a fucking hero there's gonna be a Clyde side of Twitter the Clyde Proud Boys faction like Clyde gonna be the fucking man what's the name of the guy who killed the United CEO there'd be a little bit of that to Clyde the whole fucking shit Clyde gonna be the man in the world we live in today they should just make a true crime documentary about Clyde like he was a real person I agree that's a good idea just interview people making fake documentaries about fictional crime characters is kinda awesome that's a fucking fantastic idea it's like Clyde people We should cut this I'm about to say We should take this out Of the podcast And we should do A Ringer movie sting Where we do fake True crime docs About characters And we should actually do that True crime doc About John Doe From Seven Is kind of sweet You could do like How many The victims of Vito Corleone Like how many people Over the course of his life Did Vito Corleone kill Problem is You'd have to get Some of the actors To come back And reprise their roles For the interviews Yeah they tried this They did a fake 30 for 30 That I was done About Drago I think didn't work.

44:34Oh, it sucks? Yeah. Kind of too corny? Because wouldn't you need like Brad Pitt from Seven to sit back down in character and give an interview? Yeah. Maybe. Maybe you would. Or if you had the right voiceover, you wouldn't need it. I mean, you could do it without it, but... Yeah.

44:47Bill Simmons:Yeah. The Floyd Gondali butter in my ass lollipops in my mouth award for something I just enjoy. So for me, it's any movie where a lawyer is trying to protect either a high conviction rate or a high plea bargain rate. I always love this they always put in the first they didn't feel good bad first 20 minutes what kind of lawyer are you? oh well you plea bargain 98 % of the time Caffey you always know the guy's a piece of shit it's the easiest way to explain it to us devil's advocate go devil's advocate Keanu Reeves the guy fucking never loses right? and that's a part of his hubris in the entire movie oh devil's advocate devil's advocate like oh you thought I was saying I want to be the devil's advocate no in the movie the devil's advocate that's another thing literally devil's advocate yeah exactly yeah what do you have for Gundali oh I said earlier I like movies where something tragic has to happen for a guy to be a father like he's not a dad he's not a dad right he was never going to a cello recital in his life doesn't go to his son's baseball game terrorists take over the town kill 50 people and after that the last scene of the movie he's at his son's baseball game that's what it took for him to go out there and coach him how to throw a fastball which like isn't connected like Nick going to his daughter's cello recital isn't connected to what he learned from the movie.

46:05Bill Simmons:Which is why if the tie started strangling him... Like, I don't... What is the... I don't know. If the tie starts strangling him during the cello recital, this movie's fucking amazing. Like, honestly, this becomes... This becomes, like, a seven-level kind of twist. He's like, wow, Clyde taught me a lot about the justice system, so I have to go to my daughter's cello recital. Right, exactly. My whole fucking team is dead. Everybody's dead. a guy got stabbed with a bone in his neck so now I should go watch her play her instrument plus I'm now the DA and the mayor of Philadelphia I got promoted three times I have all four of the high ranking jobs of the city what's age the best so initially Fox was going to be the Clyde Butler was going to be the lawyer and Butler pushed to flip it oh Butler pushed to flip it yeah Butler had a whole I'll find it I think it's better the way it is.

47:02He said... Maybe. I think Jamie plays that role, though, better than he plays his... I think Jamie probably...

47:10Bill Simmons:I think he plays his role better, but I don't think it's a good use of Butler. I don't know if I would buy Butler. I think Butler's awesome in his role. I don't think Jamie's going to be better than him. Butler said, I became seduced by the other role. I'd often played more heroic, more straightforward, subtle journey. I wanted something I could get my teeth into, and I asked if Jamie would be interested in doing the other role. That's awesome. Yeah. The fact that they could talk about that the movie was supposed to go that way and then they flip roles. I think it's a worse movie. I wouldn't buy Butler as the lawyer.

47:38I think it's probably a worse movie. It is a I think it's a better role for Jamie though. And the fact that he was the fact that it's an away game for him. By the way a good role for anybody.

47:47Bill Simmons:Yeah. Like this could have been I even think like Tom Cruise like name anybody. Another one stage the best. The all new to rest. What a choice. The cops are coming. I'm stripping all my clothes. I'm just going to flap it around. Butler added himself to the pantheon. I've talked about this before. Of white guys on their way up in their sexiness who show their butts to the camera. Him, Kevin Costner, Robin Hood, Men of Thieves, Mel Gibson, butts to the camera, Tom Cruise, butts to the camera, very important to white guys. Also, Gerard Butler is a hairy guy. Yeah. Scottish. Bare naked ass. Nothing.

48:29Not a hair on it. They always do that in movies. These hairy men, when they have to show their butts, no hair ever. Do you think they get waxed? 100%. 100%. I just think no matter what, they're like, there can't be a hairy ass on screen.

48:43Bill Simmons:I'm surprised he didn't go salt burn on us and do a little self-fluffing for the front shot. Can I get it? Yeah. Yeah.

48:53Bill Simmons:More would say, Jabez Philly has a movie location. Not underrated. Always good. I always forget where we are right away, but then as we do it and you're in the city, it's like, I kind of like it. Everything's confined. That's why it's an awesome movie location because you don't recognize it like off the bat, but you know that it looks cool. Yeah. I wish they used it a little more. I wish Clyde was like, the Rocky statue is going to explode at midnight. That would have been cool. Oh my God. The spectrum. Yeah. I think the city wouldn't have been upset until the Rocky statue was just blown up. The Liberty Bell will fall.

49:28Bill Simmons:Yeah, that's pretty good. I have one more What's Age the Best but you have any? Regina Hall she's in this movie only for like a couple of scenes she was already building like a phenomenal career but like you see her she looks beautiful she's amazing and she still brings like a gravitas to the character to where you know like now you see the character she has now you can see it right there even in the smaller role she's like three scenes too short in this movie but I also this movie's almost two hours this isn't my only other What's Age the Best I like when a guy has a special set of skills that you need another character to explain.

50:05Bill Simmons:And in this case, he basically can kill anyone unconventionally. But you need the guy to come in who's, you know, we're in like a tunnel with this dude. We don't even know where that character came from. He's like, you don't understand. He can get to anyone. He doesn't have to be there. It's like, okay, cool. That's the House of Cards guy, right? Yeah. Why this guy? Yeah. Great shot, Goddard Award. Probably the Naked Arrest. that's what you like huh but like it's like the most deliberate shot in the movie I thought it was the burning at the end when he's sitting there oh that's good and it's like yeah Big Kuna Burger where best use of food to drink the Del Frisco Steakhouse actually made me kind of hungry your food looked pretty good I would have thrown in some potatoes of gratin maybe I don't know if I would have included asparagus Caesar no asparagus what do you eat with your steak then what's your green I mean sure on a normal day but if we're in like final meal territory I don't know if I'm including a vegetable.

50:59Yeah, true.

50:59Bill Simmons:Our director, Gary Gray, threw this in because they had been eating at Del Frisco Steakhouse and really liked it. So wanted to work them into the movie. Threw them a bone. Got a little perk, a little steak perk. Chess Rockwell Brocklander's award for best character name. So Butler's character is named Clyde Shelton and Fox's character is named Nick Rice. Kind of makes sense that initially Jamie Fox's character was supposed to be Clyde Shelton. and Gerard Butler was supposed to be Nick Rice and they flipped it, but they flipped the names. How many white guys named Clyde in American history? That's really good.

51:36Three? That's really good. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. What if the names... Nick Rice. J.B. Fox does not look like a Nick Rice. What if his name was supposed to be Darius Jackson? They just leave it.

51:51Bill Simmons:Kid Cudi, Pursuit of Happiness, where our best needle drop, Eminence Front by The Who. You might remember it from Craig's favorite show, Entourage. Yeah. Where'd you, which side were you on with Doug Allen versus Grineer and Piven with the bet ads? Well, I'm not on the side of Jake Paul ever. So I guess I'll have to take Ellen's, right? Team Allen. Yeah. I don't know what the fuck you guys are talking about. What are you talking about? The gambling ad with Piven and Grineer, and it seemed like an Entourage scene, but it wasn't. You didn't see that? Then the Entourage creator got upset about it?

52:21Jake Paul has a gambling app. Made a commercial for it.

52:24Bill Simmons:You don't miss anything on the internet. I don't understand. It stars Piven and Adrian Grenier. What era is this? What do you mean? Two weeks ago. Yeah. Oh, it just happened. Okay, cool. I'm off Twitter. And they're playing Ari Gold and Vinny Chase, but they don't say their names. But they're clearly, they're speaking like them. They're at a party. And there's like now, I think HBO is suing. Piven shows up and he's trying to get in the party and they ask for his name. And he's like, Ted Lasso. And he's like, where's my movie star, motherfucker? And it's like, okay, this is clearly an entourage.

52:54Yeah.

52:55Bill Simmons:And it's like a big wide shot of a party And it's Jake Paul's party And it just feels like Why didn't they like it? Because it felt like an entourage ripoff It was like a blatant ripoff Oh, so he didn't like it because of that Not because of Well, because it basically made it seem like It was the two characters It didn't make it seem like it was Piven It was a creative thing for him He wasn't like, don't use it for that Ellen wasn't included in the process Oh, I see, I see, I see And he was just like, this is a watered down version of You know The funniest thing was He started out like I'm not going to make a big deal out of this and then he did like three tweets and a long Instagram video.

53:28Also like, even though it was kind of cheesy, I still kind of liked seeing them. Grenier and Pimbit. I gotta be honest. That kind of a journey too. It's still kind of fun. Man. I was like, Vince! You go back and if you spin the show, you are so happy to be back in the world, bro. It's just, it was a fun time. Reminds you of a fun time. It's a little snapshot of LA in the 2000s. They could relaunch it now and I'd watch every episode. It'd be much more interesting now.

53:51Bill Simmons:From your mouth to Doug Allen's ears. He's ready. Was there a better title for this movie? I want to say yes, but I couldn't come up with the title. I have one. The name of my title is Shut the Hell Up, Nick. That's the name of my title. That's the name of my movie. Every time Nick says something, every time Nick says something, the opposite happens in a terrible fucking way. He's out there with his whole crew. They're in the parking lot. And he goes, we're going to find this guy. And boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Everyone dead. Every time he says something. So if he just doesn't speak, if he just like, if he just fucking chills, maybe everything is okay.

54:29But legitimately, every time Nick has a thought, the opposite. They make this guy look so dumb throughout this entire movie. It's a good point. I love the scene when Clyde's like, get me a nice mattress and I'll confess. And then Nick leaves and he's like, we don't negotiate with murderers. And his team's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Get him a mattress. He's going to confess. Ben, you have a flex category. Yeah, so my top five, we shouldn't have fucked with this guy movie. Oh. Okay, so there's a lot of movies like this out here. But I tried to use body counts and consequences to qualify this list.

55:02You have to have Death Wish on the list at five. But like, Death Wish has sort of a conservative body count with all of the first... Yeah, only because like in the first movie. But throughout the entire movies, he kills 125 people. So she'd have never messed When 125 people died Number four The equalizer Denzel Okay Should have left him alone Robert was chilling He had a lot of stuff But throughout that He becomes a vigilante Kills the whole Russian mob Over the course of three movies Kills up a bunch of people Number three Taken Yep Taken is interesting in this Because what you guys Talked about before Taken I feel like Is the only one Where somebody else Didn't describe to us How good Brian Mills is Brian said it so like normally you bring a guy in it's like this is the baddest motherfucker ever but Brian goes no I have a very particular set of skills he also told this guy I don't really care about human trafficking if you give me my daughter back you can traffic all you want right

56:02Bill Simmons:knock yourself out yeah I'm not gonna bother you but I like this so you so Brian was a self promoter Brian was a self promoter cause we just did Rambo too with Kyle Brandt Kyle Brandt was saying how Troutman was Rambo's wrestling manager basically yeah he's like you don't understand what we've got here man's a killing machine everybody else has somebody yeah they have a traveling right but like Brian was like I'm gonna come to get you I have all of these skills let my daughter go alright number two is first blood yeah Rambo was not bothering anyone Brian Dennehy just wanted some breakfast just walking through the town walking through the town he actually looks at him at one time like very sincerely and goes why are you riding me like what are you doing yeah goes into the wood kills all the cops over these movies he went around the world killing killed in the US Vietnam Afghanistan Myanmar and Mexico they initiated Rambo and people died everywhere there's an alternate universe where he's just working at a blockbuster through the entire 80s where he started an Italian restaurant in the Pacific Northwest just chilling he's going to therapy hanging out with his own Rambo's Italian restoria exactly the whole deal where he's not bothering no one but they fuck with him and they unleashed the demon number one obviously John Wick they killed the dog then John Wick proceeded to kill 439 people in seven months.

57:24439 people in seven months after they stole the car and killed the dog. He completely obliterated the high table. It is one of the worst mistakes in the history of organized crime in movies. It's a good list. Rebel Ridge. Shout out. Other movies around that didn't make it, but Rebel Ridge is another one.

57:42Bill Simmons:We need a Rebel Ridge 2. Rebel Ridge 2. Rebel Ridge 3. Yeah. That was a good one. We'll take a break, then we'll do Butch's girlfriend. Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time. We go V! We go V! Ask your prescriber about Wegovi, semaglutide injection 2.4 milligrams, a GLP-1. Call 1-833-4-WEGOVI or visit wegovi.com to view the medication guide and to learn more about Wegovi. Why wait?

58:20Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Now, this is a player in the food space that has championed winning food standards and quality since 1980. That means no added growth hormones or antibiotics in their meat and no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in their deli meats, hot dogs, or sausages. Plus all their seafood is responsibly farmed or wild caught. They've even banned some ingredients store wide to make sure there's nothing to mess with the flavors you want. Shop Whole Foods Market, in store, or online. Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film. This could go a lot of ways.

58:57Bill Simmons:Couldn't he have just killed everyone normally? Nick. Okay. Not Nick. Clyde. Couldn't Clyde have just... Did he need to take 10 years to do this elaborate murder for everybody? Could have just killed Darby when he got out of jail. Yeah. Could have killed all the people. Could have killed the judge. Like, he just could have... snipered him. He had to like dig tunnels for 10 years to get his revenge. What was his ultimate point? That the system was fucked up? Just kill everybody. You're killing everyone anyway. But if he anonymously is killing all these people, he's not a public figure in prison who's making a point to the justice system.

59:31And everybody knows that this man who was wronged by the system is now getting his revenge. All right, so let's say

59:37Bill Simmons:we're friends with Nick. And Nick's like, here's my plan. We're like, dude, just kill everyone. You mean Clyde? Clyde. Clyde, yeah. Clyde, just kill everyone. Yeah. This would be 10 years of your life. Just take them all out. Because you know how to kill people. Yeah. Just get out of it. He could still, like, write letters and send emails. Right. He could probably go on the news, do an interview after he does it all. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, then we'll have a movie. Darby gets out after five years. He lets him live for another five years. Yeah. I guess. Think about all the fun that Darby looked like he was having fun.

1:00:08How many more people did Darby kill? Because Clyde was taking his time.

1:00:14Bill Simmons:the judge Jamie Foxx are going to do more damage like why do you wait so long he's basically waiting until the lethal injection to start his revenge thing or maybe he had to finish all the tunnels but this is this is the guy's fucking maniac but this is part of the movie though part of the movie though is there you after the the film kicks off you feel for him and so there's going to be an implicit sense of altruism in like whatever he does yeah right but it's really not it's like the difference between justice and revenge like say in Batman Begins justice is harmony revenge is making yourself feel better so he really didn't have a point which is why he did it in such a staccato scattershot way the other weak link would be him being able to be in isolation and just being able to move in and out and nobody realizing also like those are the most elaborate isolation like I'm used to Oz where you're just in like a round cement box with you're just naked the entire time.

1:01:16Bill Simmons:His thing has like nooks and crannies, the ability to go in and out. And he was just able to build tunnels for all 20 spies. By the way, the tunnels are very manicured and extremely nice. Yes, there's a lot of them. Yeah, there's like brick. Right. Was he rich? Like, I feel like all of this stuff that he was doing required a lot of technology. Batman. Yeah. But also he started a whole janitorial service called Nomos. that he's working in the mayor's office and they know him. They're like, hey, Nomo, what's going on? So he's also working at, does this guy sleep? Well, he's also, that's a full shift he's got to work.

1:01:51Right. So he can't, yeah, exactly.

1:01:54Bill Simmons:So he's got to leave. So it's like, Clyde, what are you doing today? Nine to four, I got to dig some tunnels. Then I got my janitor shift from four to 12. Just fucking kill everybody, Clyde. This really might be Apex Mountain for like the long con. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean 10 years of planning this and him taking up a shift as a janitor for years and then he also has to dig all the tunnels maybe he contracted guys out there to do it you know new award the Death Wish 2 award for did this home invasion scene go too far

1:02:29Bill Simmons:It's obviously it seems like his wife gets raped. I would say visually, no, it doesn't go too far. But what happens is grotesque. The little girl shows up. Yeah. And that guy's, I love playing with kids or whatever he says. Maybe that line's too far. At that point, we're out of here, man. But it allows you to kind of get behind Clyde the whole movie. Like you keep thinking back to that scene. And so then every time Clyde does something, you're kind of like, I still get it. How come he didn't John Wick himself Out of that situation How come he Like in that situation He got hit with the fucking back Oh I guess John Wick Didn't John Wick himself Out of that situation Yeah but so I had this in nitpicks But we can do it now This guy By all accounts Is one of the great Murderers and planners Of all time They get a Postmates He Obviously might have Some people with an axe to grind Yeah Right He doesn't even like Look through the little eye hole Doesn't Doesn't Just like oh Hmm smells good The guy hits him in the head with a bat Makes no sense It's night It's dark out He doesn't look through the peephole He just opens the door for strangers Who just opens the door at night Without looking to see who's there?

1:03:35He's a CIA operative and he just opens the door for strangers Somebody that's that hyper-vigilant as well No way Other people might have been like Hey, whatever But this guy with this murder around every corner And whatever like that He just wouldn't have been that way

1:03:46Bill Simmons:Ridiculous What's age the worst? The Philly accents are just non-existent in this movie They didn't even try They didn't even try They just said fuck it no Philly sports references. This is like the Phillies are I think are in the World Series in 09. Sixers, not really sure what was going on with them in 09. Probably nothing great. But the Eagles... Andrew Iguodala? Yeah. Early Iguodala. The Eagles are... I don't know. Felt like somebody could have been like, oh, I'm going to the Flyers game tonight. Sports is such a big part of Philly.

1:04:20Here's my other one though. Chase Utley will die tonight if I don't get a Delphre.

1:04:25Bill Simmons:Or have them in a game. Like, have them at, like, a Phillies game. And then, you know, they get some message on the board. Sometimes I like it when the killers in these movies just say, like, a passing reference. It's like, yeah, you're probably loving it with your family going to the Birds game or something like that. Like, just a passing reference to it. It's something Clyde would have done. You catch the Phillies game, Nick. Catch the Phillies game, Nick. You like Chase Utley? Good player, isn't he, Nick? Ryan Howard hits bombs. I do bombs. She'd like the Elton Brand signing, Nick. My other one's age the worst.

1:04:58Bill Simmons:It's just Viola Davis is in this movie who's one of our better actors of the last 20 years. Just completely wasted. She's in the mirror for like three scenes. She has lines like, your boys sure fucked this one up. It's like, we need Viola Davis for this. But look, earlier, but she also pops up like for a brief second in... Damn, I'm drawing a blank. Well, she's in Black Hat. she's in a bunch of movies where it's like why is Viola Davis she's like a legitimizer people just throw her in a movie to raise the floor she popped up what was it one scene in Out of Sight right one scene in Out of Sight she pops up interesting character but like I think she was still on the you know took a while she was still on the climb if you have her I'm writing three more scenes with the mayor the mayor's gonna just be more involved in the movie any other what's age the worst for you no just I say just Nick every time I watch it I'm like yo Nick sucks the Vincent Chase award for are we sure this character was actually good at his job Mayor Viola Davis what she's like first of all everybody blows up and she has this speech and she goes I'm gonna have to swear you in as the new DA as she's uprating him for all the damage that he just caused you don't want to have a little search here for a week right this gotta be Nick are you crazy Nick is the worst bro Nick, there's gotta be Nick Nick, Nick for no reason by the way, Nick, take it to trial you're gonna win you don't think that Nick Nick is the worst DA he's the worst everything he shakes a rapist's hand on television right, this would have been like the Jaguars bringing Urban Meyer in and being like, this is going terribly you're now the GM exactly, you gotta be Nick we'd like to have you also be in charge of the players the Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge overacting word I think goes to Darby okay Darby was laying it on thick I think that could have been a really good criminal role for somebody and that guy I've never seen him before I don't know where that guy came from he didn't look greasy and disgusting I get it that could have been a really good part though for somebody I was fascinated by his day to day you know him laying in that nasty apartment Darby was getting to it he also he got up out of there quick man he turned into Jason Bourne on the roof for a second did we talk about that scene that's the Matrix.

1:07:21That's Neo like go left, go right. In that situation, that's the Matrix. That was a fun scene to me. Really good scene. Yeah.

1:07:29Bill Simmons:Little shades of the fugitive. Sierra thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison before not a stake award. Did you prepare one for this? I did not because I did not know I was going to be sitting in this chair. Did you prepare one for this? Yeah. So, Sarah. Which is Leslie Bibb? Yeah. She deserved to die. She should have found a husband She should It was just She's working too hard Sarah deserved to die I can tell you What's gonna happen With Sarah Down the road She's gonna make a run at Nate It was good Nick Down the road Sarah Talking about Chip The boyfriend They're already getting a little Too familiar I know I would argue Maybe it already happened Down the road Sarah I thought there was a scene missing When they jump to 10 years later you're like, man, they've been working together for 10 years?

1:08:17I'm telling you, what was going to end up happening is Nick becomes a governor or something like that. He brings Sarah to the NAACP Awards. Everybody go crazy on Twitter. I'm telling you, Sarah was that, that had to happen like that. But she's a single mom. Because she might have cheated on her boyfriend with Nick. I put the black family ahead of everything. Okay.

1:08:36Bill Simmons:She's a single mom with a biracial baby, but she's like, it's adopted. It's adopted.

1:08:46Bill Simmons:here's my hottest take I think Gerard Butler should have been James Bond 20 years ago instead of Daniel Craig interesting I think it's a great fork in the road I think they were both around the same points of their career and I think he would have been a better James Bond I would have rather seen him in Casino Royale Skyfall name a James Bond movie I'd rather a Butler I think it would have been fun if Bond got like older and fatter from all the cigarettes and drinks So this is why you are who you are. Thank you. Because this is the most entertaining, total bullshit take. Thank you. That I can like really wrap my mind around.

1:09:21But it's fascinating to even consider it when you consider the trajectory of both guys' careers and how successful Daniel Craig was as Bond. Yeah. And the fact that Gerard Butler kind of couldn't make Olympus Has Fallen work. so when you look at it through that lens it's like this almost dazzling dazzling putrid take but it's very it's a hottest take yeah that's what that's the fucking thing yeah

1:09:48Bill Simmons:also if he's James Bond is he now in better shape do we get Den of Thieves because he can't play somebody like Nick because he's got to stay in James Bond shape right so you wouldn't have gotten wait hold on what about Daniel Craig in Den of Thieves as big as Nick maybe that's what happens right Daniel Craig could have been in Law Abiding Citizen Daniel Craig could have been Clyde. He's got a little bit of that grit to him. So you don't think Gerard Butler could have been James Bond? You know, you know, I think that James Bond, Gerard Butler's brand is brutality. Yeah. And James Bond's, there's a suave.

1:10:25There's a suave that's in the subtlety to it. Is Gerard Butler ordering martinis and sleeping with mistresses at casinos? I don't know if I, in a suit. He's also got that Scottish thing where he kind of talks side of his mouth a little bit. Right. Could he keep the Scottish accent as Bond? I will say this, though. He is sort of... Oh, you're coming around. Well, no. Look, I entertain every idea. It's my problem. Like, he does kind of fit into the Sean Connery man's man version of James Bond that had kind of been subverted by that point. See, you're coming around now. But no, it's fucking terrible.

1:10:57But it is an interesting thought experience.

1:10:59Bill Simmons:I feel it coming around. Casting what ifs. We mentioned the Butler Fox thing. this movie was originally supposed to be directed by Frank Darabont oh from Shawshank Redemption hmm creative differences left the movie he was like I can't do another movie with tunnels leading to jail cells maybe that's why they wanted him yeah he's a creative differences guy there's been a few of those like even Walking Dead he ended up like suing AMC for Walking Dead so that worked okay Joey Pants Award for best that guy Cole Meany is the guy who ends up basically he's the only one that survives other than Jamie Foxx.

1:11:37Bill Simmons:The sidekick, he's been in a bunch of shit. He's like the Star Trek guy, right? Mystery Alaska, he's been around forever. But I think some people might know he's Cole Meany. The Warden is a full-fledged over-the-top guy. It's not Bruce McGill. Bruce McGill is Bruce McGill? Bruce McGill is Bruce McGill. The Warden was played by President Logan from 24. I didn't even know what this guy's name was. I had to go look it up. Yeah. He was the evil president in 24. I didn't know what his name was, but it's Gregory Itzen. He was the warden, so I think he wins. The only other guy I'd throw out is the dude who plays Clyde's co-worker at the CIA, Michael Kelly.

1:12:15Oh, well, no.

1:12:16Bill Simmons:Michael Kelly. He just got added to season three of Landman. Landman. Which makes me think, I'm not going to spoil anything, but he is also on Lioness, so I feel like he's maybe sort of ascended past You think he's Michael Kelly? I think he's Michael Kelly, yeah. Deion Waiters Award I can offer you Darby Clyde's old co-worker Michael Kelly Leslie Bibb's in it too much but I think the answer is Clyde's cellmate they're doing a whole separate movie for five minutes I'm like I could have spent 20 more minutes with this guy yeah I got a couple bitches back home I got a couple bras you know what I'm saying they made us like that guy yeah I was in on that guy it's Deion Waiters he checked recasting couch director City can I offer you Denzel and Tom Hanks making Philadelphia.

1:13:04Are you fucking nuts? Hold on. I cannot believe you just said that. You had that too? I cannot believe, like, I cannot believe that you just said that. That was my big reveal for this thing. The Philadelphia Shadow sequel that actually has That's what I had. 1995. has Tom Hanks and Denzel Washington in it. We just go law-abiding citizen three years later after Philadelphia or two years later. My approximation of myself has gone down to such a degree. Who's who? Or gone up? I thought that what you would do is have Denzel as Clyde and have Tom as like the Jamie Foxx character.

1:13:38Bill Simmons:Or we go the other way and Tom Hanks finally breaks bad. He's finally a bad guy in a movie. He gets like ripped. Gets like fake tattoos. Neck tattoo? Yeah. Goes shows his ass. It's like this that Tom Hanks would've never seen. Waxes his ass? Yeah. I feel like Denzel has made nine versions of this movie but never actually made this movie. But he's done a bunch of these. I thought you believed me. I believed you. Yeah. Yeah. You should be excited that we had the same idea instead of upset. Yeah. It's tough. I gotta reassess. Craig, you have a flex category. I was gonna do the Kevin Costner Award for the worst American accent, which has gotta go to Gerard Butler.

1:14:19The guy, he just, there's, the Scottish is falling out of his mouth with every line. Is he even trying to do an American accent? You like mac and cheese? It's like, It's just not fair.

1:14:34It's not like they're like, this is the best we're going to get. Let's just keep going. But is he supposed to be American? Yeah, I think so. Well, I would think so. He's a CIA operative. Maybe he's some kind of guy that works for everybody.

1:14:47Bill Simmons:My take on this always consistently is just have your normal accent. Totally. Like Chris Hemsworth in Black Hat trying to have the Brooklyn accent. Just be Australian. Who cares? We never remember it. Like in Robin Hood, in the movie that this is named after, He's, I don't know, the guy's from fucking Long Island or whatever. Like Robin of Long Island. But it doesn't even fucking matter. Like you don't remember it. It's a good one. Delfrisco's steak, Nick. And you're just like, come on. Would you like some steak? Half-ass earned research. Butler loved the script because he actually graduated from Glasgow Law School.

1:15:22Bill Simmons:And Glasgow? Wait, wait. What did you just say? He graduated from law school in Scotland. Yeah. Wow. I never knew that. and was a trainee solicitor and got fired and then decided to become an actor. He also said this movie really fucked with him. He spent three weeks in a very funky place, came back to Scotland, went away, climbed a couple hills, got a tent out, and then went off to India. He might be one of the five most interesting people in the world. Yeah. I feel like he would be a good BS podcast, Charred. Have you ever talked to him? No, I would love him, though. He'd be great. That sounds great.

1:15:57Bill Simmons:I would just ask a lot of Den of Thieves questions. They filmed in Philadelphia. Butler said that there was one scene when he kills the guy. When the blood was gushing. No, when he kills the guy in the cell. We had guys working on this who had worked in the industry for 30 years who were standing in front of the cameras with their hands over their mouth going, holy fucking shit, I've never seen anything like that. It was incredibly graphic and powerful. But the ratings board said we had to be rated NC-17. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they somehow cut that down. I thought that's a pretty brutal scene. There is blood everywhere.

1:16:37Bill Simmons:How could that scene have been worse? Yeah, to see what it was before they trinited him. Was it like just pouring out of his neck? I know. He stabs him. It already poured out of his neck. 10, 20 times with the shit. Yeah. His name, Nomos, the cleaner, the janitor identity he had. in Greek it means law related to the idea of dispensing justice and then Bruce McGill two car explosion deaths for him in his career the other one was what movie? we've done it on rewatchables The Last Boy Scout there you go I was thinking there should be a website that has all the deaths all the deaths of the actors oh interesting almost like IMDB for death just to see who had the most who's died the most Yeah, howtheydied.com.

1:17:25That's great. Somebody should work on that. That scene in The Last Boy Scout is great. Head or gut. Gets punched. Blows up. Apex Mountain.

1:17:40Bill Simmons:Gerard Butler? What is it? 300, right? It's probably mid-2000s. Mid-2000s. Coming out of 300 felt like the world was the zoyser. This is the next big guy. Yeah. Yeah. Jamie Foxx probably after Ray yeah yeah yeah Ray collateral he wins for Ray and is nominated for collateral same year he's the biggest fucking thing in the whole industry I don't know what it is for Leslie Gibb oh White Lotus Talladega Nights as well kind of close to this but yeah White Lotus I guess she's the lead in Talladega Nights it would have to be Talladega Nights though she's the lead lady yeah it's probably mid 2000s yeah Philadelphia Law Movies I'm gonna say Philadelphia still has that one Vigilante Movies I'm going to say Death Wish.

1:18:22Bill Simmons:Del Frisco Steakhouse, definitely. And then... Double Eagle. Eminence Front. Still probably the first episode of Entourage. Yeah. Right? Sure. What'd you say? What'd you say? The what? Eminence Front. Oh, no. The Who song. Oh, the Who song. Yeah, yeah.

1:18:40Cruise or Hanks? Well, that's why I had it. I had Cruise and the Philadelphia Shadow sequel with Hanks and Nick as Denzel and Clyde. Cruise would be a phenomenal Clyde.

1:18:50Bill Simmons:it's the role I always kind of wanted Cruz to do I have the many roles I've wanted Cruz to do what just like a law abiding citizen where collateral is the closest he came to be in dark cruise but this would have been a good version of it the thing is he was so good at it it was so seamless in collateral the fact that he never spent time as that in movies as much as he should have in collateral it is so natural almost grounds his performance in a different way it's like he's a different human different doctors Cruz would have crushed Clyde like the hyper fixated like manic meticulous he would have learned tricks too over the top yeah you would have totally bought it he would have learned like how to make bombs he would have learned how to tunnel yeah I was tunneling under my house for six months to understand tunneling does he have any running to do though in this one they would have added some put some running in there I think parking lot when he has to park in the garage at the end he probably has to run spread yeah what did we think of that interview by the way which one the Cruise GQ.

1:19:50Bill Simmons:Oh, I haven't watched it yet. For Zach? See, Craig was thinking Cruise would be a good rewatchables guest and we argued back and forth about it. I think he would be. And my take was he would not be. He'd be phenomenal. Would he be good at actually talking about the movie, though? He would be one of the best ever. He didn't... I'd be like, all right, Tom, what's your most rewatchable scene? And he'd be like, you know, I think one of the best things about race car driving is the feeling you get when he... Who cares? If Tom Cruise is sitting in the seat I'm in. I don't think he would have answered a single category question.

1:20:20I love this. Talk your shit. Tom Cruise is not good enough for my movie podcast where we've talked about his movies. I'm asking if he would have been good. All I want to do is have a good podcast. I think that Tom Cruise, if you've ever listened to him when he gets going talking about movies and talking about performance. I tried to listen to him

1:20:36Bill Simmons:in the GQ interview and he was incoherent. Go ahead. I think what's nice is when he sits down for a GQ interview, you have to ask about him and he is very skilled at skirting around things. If he's sitting down Talking about a movie He can just talk about the movie If you have him in here Doing Days of Thunder That's gonna go crazy He'll probably tell great stories But he wouldn't do a movie he's in Because we usually don't do that Alright so Tom Cruise Don't be a wuss Come on the rewatchables There you go Prove me wrong Add another category What's going on with this guy? The Ed Norton Reverse Dunk Award For did this movie Need a random sports scene Okay What's up with this Let me give you this Jamie Foxx He's playing He has a Saturday morning basketball game.

1:21:19Basketball.

1:21:19Bill Simmons:Plays with some of the some of the people some of the people like in the in the legal community Saturday morning it's like 9 o 'clock. And the Gatorade jug is poisoned by Clyde. No the basketball somebody's going for a layup and the basketball just blows up blows up five but Fox threw the pass so he didn't get it. Yeah. Yeah. Rap is playing? Are you trying to make this? What sport would we have done? What do you want? Tennis?

1:21:47Bill Simmons:I was trying to think of a Gerard Butler trying to blow up some sort of sporting event. I'm fucking with you. I mean, tennis would be good too, I guess. No, no, no, no, no. Basketball is the best because the guy's going for the layup and the ball just explodes. Or he's like, somebody's mad because they won't swing the rock. He's like, hey, you're not passing the ball. Nick, you're taking every shot because Nick is like arrogant. And so Nick goes, fuck it. And he passed the ball to the guy and the guy, as soon as the ball gets there, it just blows up, rips the fucking skin off of his face. The other one I was thinking was softball would be great.

1:22:19Bill Simmons:It's like the... I just don't know if they would have been playing a lot of Philadelphia softball as the city was blowing up. Right. But Fox is the pitcher and throws the ball and the guy hits it The thing that I love is that he's actually playing this game while all of this shit is happening, which is exactly what his dumbass character in this movie would do. He's like, I can't skip my Saturday hoops game. Right. I can't go to see my daughter play the cello. We're in the 70s. Sorry.

1:22:48Bill Simmons:The Van Lathan Award, did this movie need more black people? I don't think so. I think we're good. You think we're good? Okay. Because the more people that you have in this movie, the higher the body count goes. And I think it's good that we were spared. Picky Nets. We've mentioned a few of them already. I mean, there's a good question of two guys just randomly rape and murder the wife and daughter of somebody who's Kaiser Soze and don't realize it. Pretty massive coincidence. Of all the houses to go to. this is another reason, this is another way that this movie could have been a little smarter and maybe the Fincher version is that this is not just some random crime that happens to this guy.

1:23:22This is revenge. This is something that happens in a different way and like, you start to learn all of that throughout the movie.

1:23:33Bill Simmons:When Nate, Nick, Nate, Nick, Jamie Foxx's character, when he shakes Darby's hand in front of all the reporters, you could never do that. Nobody's that stupid. Yeah. It's the dumbest thing he does in the movie. Right. You're like, no, I'll hold it on the handshake. Right. Fucking rapist guy. So he was in the isolation cell. No cameras in this cell. And once stuff starts blowing up, nobody says, we should put a camera in that cell to see what he's up to, what he's doing. They're not just photographing him 24-7 to make sure he's not doing shit. I mean, yeah. He's now the most dangerous guy in the whole city.

1:24:09Bill Simmons:If you're the mayor, you're going to call that one in. Hey, let's put a camera in the cell. so we know what he's doing. Also, on the Clyde side of things, at the end of the movie, wouldn't Clyde have noticed that Nick in what's-his-name broke into his warehouse, went into the tunnel, moving things around? Yeah. Clyde was in there after that. He would have noticed. And by the way... They broke into the warehouse. How do them motherfuckers know how to do that? They don't know how to do that. That's the DA and a cop. How the fuck do they know how to do bombs and all that? They Google it. They don't know how to do none of that.

1:24:40I just think the biggest picking, that is that the final crime that Clyde is trying to commit is the least inventive. It's like the least smart. Just blowing up the mayor. He puts a bomb under a table. But by this point, though... And there's no cameras on it. He can't see it. Wouldn't he rig a camera to be able to see if anyone's messing with it? Oh, you mean the function of it, not the actual... The function of it is very rudimentary. Yeah, it would almost have been better

1:25:00Bill Simmons:if the mayor was giving a press conference and it was almost like how the bodyguard ended where it was like the cameraman ended up trying to shoot Whitney Houston. Yeah. So he has the camera shooting by old Davis, but really it's going to kill her. It would have been better if he'd have had some want. If there was some ask of something that gave him some sort of purpose beyond carnage, because to you guys' point, if it's just carnage, there's no reason to play all of these games. You wait till everybody is going to fuck into the thing. You just blow up and kill as many people as you can. Because the best part of this movie is every 10 minutes, it's like, what is Clyde going to do next?

1:25:39What is the next elaborate scheme? And then the last one is he puts a bomb in a briefcase and puts it under a table. And you're like, this is, you know, a little underwhelming.

1:25:48Bill Simmons:How do they get to his jail cell before he does at the end is another one I've always wondered when I watch this movie. I guess you could say because he has to go to the garage because he can't get through. Maybe they got bought more time, but he has a big head start. The biggest pick in it is it is one thing for one of the richest men in the world to build a command center bunker under his mansion that exists outside of the city limits. With Wi-Fi and state-of-the-art cameras. Right, so it's one thing for a guy named Bruce Wayne to do that. It's like, hey, Verizon, I want to install my Wi-Fi in my underground bunker.

1:26:25Bill Simmons:Can we get fiber under here? It is another thing for a prisoner to down essentially be a super criminal in a base while incarcerated. it is so nonsensical it makes absolutely zero sense there are no guards just walking up and down there's nothing it's like hey that bitch it looks like it's climate controlled there's electricity down there in no fucking way did you see what he did he puts the pillow and the blanket under the other blanket so it makes it seem like there's a body in there every other prison movie we've seen they're like making fake heads with hair half a pillow is them making the live They start molds of themselves so they can fucking escape.

1:27:07Bill Simmons:I love that movie. I just, I fucking love that movie. I was telling Craig about that movie. I haven't seen it. I saw North Carolina. CR's a huge fan of that movie too. That's a classic. We might have to do that one. Sneaky Hot Take. That movie's amazing. It's my, that's my favorite Eastwood movie of all the movies that he's done. That and Unforgiven obviously, but like I love that movie. I'm not even gonna ask you if you thought they actually got away. I'll save it for the podcast. Right. Sequel, prequel, Prestige, TVL, Blackcast are untouchable. so May 22 they announced that there was going to be a sequel May 22 when?

1:27:40Bill Simmons:four years ago oh shit Kurt Wimmer hired to return as screenwriter Gerard Butler was going to be a producer the producer Lucas Foster said we look forward to revisiting these great characters and said the premise seems even more relevant today than when the original film was released but then three years later they basically said this isn't happening so later on I'll just do it now of what happens the next day. I have an idea for the sequel. Zawadneo? Yeah. We basically already talked about it. Nick realizes that Clyde set all kinds of booby traps for him, like, in his world, in case he died, in case something happened to him.

1:28:21And Billy Bob Thornton comes in, gets hired as a former accomplice or, like, person of Clyde's that has to get into his brain and figure out... Figure out all the booby traps all the boobie shops that went off and are gonna go off

1:28:36Bill Simmons:that could be my basketball scene in the sequel it's like oh he knew you played basketball on Saturdays gonna blow up the game he races home cause he gets told there's a bomb in the cello I had for the sequel I actually just had Nick goes to jail cause he blew up a prison probably all the people in it and security guards so it has nothing to do with what the 30 people to get revenge on this guy. He didn't give anyone a heads up. I mean, that was like a huge bomb. The prison might have collapsed. Yo, this is the take. There's no way he didn't kill a bunch of people. 100%. He's like, he should be arrested at the cello recital.

1:29:18Because when their bomb expert opened up the briefcase when it was at town hall, he's like, this could take out two floors. Right. And they just put that in Clyde's cell. So that thing takes out the whole floor of the jail. Some dude in his cell, he goes, God damn, man. you know it's gonna be tough I only got three years on a minor weed charge I'm gonna do my time that guy over there got a steak and mac and cheese you're right like I'm like the who I'm good all of a sudden he's fucking dead is this movie better

1:29:45Bill Simmons:with Wayne Jenkins Fergie the florist than everybody else I was trying to think of football for this go Collinsworth we go Troy Aikman oh my clients like Josh Allen out there Mike he's running the offense He's calling audibles left and right. He's reading the defense. Oh, man. I can't get over Clyde. Digging tunnels for 10 years. Just want to ask her who gets it? Probably Butler, right? Yeah, Butler. Imagine if Butler got nominated for this. They're like, all these categories. And Gerard Butler for Law-Biting Citizen. They just show a scene of him stabbing a someone. He's like, I'm going to cut your penis off with a box cutter.

1:30:35Bill Simmons:probably an answer but questions I only have one so we talked about if there was a different ending for this movie what happens if Fox is at the cello recital for his daughter and something jars his memory and he realizes the recital's about to blow up and we go wide shot and just the entire school blows up and that's the end of the movie Bill I was trying to think how dark how dark of an ending could this be? The whole school blows up. I think that's too dark. It's definitely too dark. Hundreds of kids died. But I wonder in the writer's room did they blow up a prison? Different than children.

1:31:15What could they blow up?

1:31:18Bill Simmons:Is there a moment where he's watching the recital and you do the thing where you do the fate and then you're like oh no. Maybe when she plays a certain note it triggers a bomb. I was trying to think of what movie this reminds me of And it's Arlington Road Did you ever see it? Arlington Road's great And they actually follow the premise all the way through They follow it all the way through Don't Don't look up But I was wondering How dark could this get? The cello blowing up That's really dark The school blowing up Really dark him starting to get strangled by his tie I think would have actually been a really great because he him doing this like right and then we do flashback of Butler in his closet just adding shit to all his tie adding his weird sea ass shit or Nick is sitting there during the recital watching his daughter play the cello and then he kind of looks stage right and behind the curtain is Clyde and he just peeks his head out and he's like that would have been hard Because maybe he sneaks back into the tunnel or something.

1:32:27Bill Simmons:Maybe he fucking escaped. Yeah. Or something like that. No, but when we see the flames coming behind him, we know he dies. They shouldn't have showed that. Yeah. I think they should have left it open that maybe we never found his body. Once Nick leaves, if Nick leaves and we don't see that, we would almost assume that he has survived. But they can still show the explosion when Nick's outside in the parking lot, but I don't think they should have shown the flames around Clyde. Right. Or she's playing the cello recital and there's other people on stage, including the teacher playing the piano. and Nick's kind of looking at the teacher and realizes that it's Clyde Clyde's playing the piano and kind of turns to Nick maybe a phone rings in his pocket and his wife's like turn off your phone he's like I didn't bring my phone oh

1:33:11got you motherfucker in Texas basically Nick has to die in the last scene yeah I think we all agree

1:33:16Bill Simmons:yeah I can't believe it's a better movie I can't believe Nick made it out alive memorabilia you'd most want from this movie I was going to say the sport from the jail scene, but I guess I'll say the steak bone. Yeah. But definitely the bone. Could have put it right there under Farrah. Coach Finstock, Mr. Miyagi Award. Best worst life lesson. Lessons not learned in blood are soon forgotten. Yep. Lessons not learned in blood are soon forgotten. Yep. You believe that, Bill? Best double feature choice. Half Italian. Best of a feature choice Has to be Den of Thieves You need both ends of Butler You need Butler when he has it And then Butler when he doesn't Both ends of Butler too You want both ends of motherfuckers There you go Bill Go ahead and get to that I put Rock and Roller Just cause I love Rock and Roller But Den of Thieves is a good one too Sure Maybe John Wick won Oh Another revenge one And then I think we all think Butler won this movie Without a doubt Yeah By the way He wins most movies that he's in.

1:34:23I agree. And it don't matter.

1:34:24Bill Simmons:You don't want him as James Bond for some reason. No, hell no. But he wins most movies. He's sweet on Daniel Craig. But that's kind of the design of the Butler revolution. I love Daniel Craig. Daniel Craig revolutionized. I like Daniel Craig a lot. He revolutionized the character. He really, like, he was, like, very important. Maybe Butler would have. We never gave him a chance. I'm a Gerard Butler guy. Me and Calico went to see. I would say not. You don't think he should be James Bond? I don't think he should be. You know what? I also don't think he should play Malcolm X. That doesn't mean that.

1:34:48I think he should be in every movie right but Terire Butler's Malcolm X would be a choice yeah Plymouth Rock but I we went to see every Olympus movie in theaters I've never seen any of those Fallen movies Are they good? All of everything's Fallen they're fun the first one is passable this is better than any of those movies it might not be better than the first one I could I could make an argument for the first one the first one I can make an argument for the first one.

1:35:20Bill Simmons:What role would he play in the Colin Kaepernick sports movie? Retired linebacker. Jim Tomsula? Let's see. Who would he play? Jim Harbaugh? Maybe Harbaugh. Jim Harbaugh with the Scottish accent. We got to do a little more shotgun coming out of there. We got to use Colin's legs. But he has been underused, though, to me. I agree. I think he's great in Chasing Mavericks. That's not a movie that should be good, and he's great in it. For his physicality, I'm surprised he was never like a football player in a movie. That's true. He could have been a linebacker. Did he do sports movies? Did he do, like, what?

1:35:58Bill Simmons:Well, Den of Thieves, he was a high school star. He could have been in the replacements. Masters of Surfing. Like, he could have been in the replacements or something, you know? No question. Do you need to do your closer? Because you already talked about the movie. Anything left? No, I just, I think the most interesting part of the movie is when you decide that you are no longer rooting for Clyde. or does that ever come? When was it for you? When Leslie Bid blew up, I was like, all right, he's killing paralegals and assistants now and people who are barely related to this case and he's kind of lost his mind.

1:36:30Yeah. But until then, I was like, I'm on board. And even until the end, there's still a percentage of you that's like, I get it.

1:36:37Bill Simmons:That's one of the great reasons why this is a rewatchable movie. He's like, why am I fucking rooting for this guy? He's a complete maniac. And I think maybe it's why purposefully Nick is not a likable character because if Nick was a great guy or more charming, you might be more against Clyde. But because Nick sucks, I think in the back of your head, you're still rooting for Clyde a little bit. Clyde's right until he becomes criminally and crazily wrong. This whole movie is like one big gray area and you just don't quite know where to land. That's what makes it a rewatchable. Well put. Craig, thank you.

1:37:10I can't believe you hesitated. Yeah, you did great. I walked in and he was like, you're in the third chair. I was like, oh, I didn't prepare to host. He's like, it'll be fine. Tracy Letts doesn't hesitate. Tracy Letts is great. And have you seen I Play Rocky? He's great in that. So you liked I Play Rocky? I thought it was really good. I was, I had low expectations. I thought, I don't know what I was expecting. I thought it was. And the guy who played Stallone was realistic? He's amazing in it.

1:37:34Bill Simmons:Really? Yeah. It's a real crowd pleaser. I'm excited for it. And there's a sports movie coming out too. The Mr. Irrelevant. Oh yeah. What's his name? Maybe sports movies are making a comeback. I just didn't realize how interesting the Rocky story was. The whole negotiation about him with the studio, it's pretty compelling. It was like a story of legend around the town for just the amount. Sticking up for yourself. It's an all-time bet on yourself. All-time bet on yourself. They offered him$25 ,000 for the script. He said, no, I want to star in it. And they went all the way up to$360 ,000 in 1974 for him not to star in the movie.

1:38:09And he still said no. And they ended up allowing him to star in the movie for$20 ,000.

1:38:15Bill Simmons:And nine years later, he ended the Cold War. John Rambo. That's what happens. Van, thank you. Craig, thank you. Thanks to Gajal and Eduardo and Chris as well. Back next week on The Rewatchables.

1:38:37Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Let's jar something loose.

1:39:16Ay, yes! I like that. The Certified Fresh Series returns.

1:39:19Bill Simmons:Your boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act? Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to live.