‘Quiz Show’ With Bill Simmons and Brian Koppelman

24:33Bill Simmons:He's probably early 30s in real life, but it seems like he's late 20s. But the way he's kind of staring people down and he's got a presence to him, but definitely felt like he could hang with all these people. And it's weird because he's red hot from Northern Exposure at this point, which was a real critically acclaimed and beloved. It wasn't a massive hit like ER, but it was a really well-known show. Him and Janine Turner were like real stars coming out of it. And he had a lot of different movie possibilities. He took this one. His movie career never really took off. He ended up, I noticed that he was in Billions way later as a judge.

25:12Bill Simmons:Adam DiGiulio, he did a lot of... Yeah, I'd forgotten. He started as like an attorney, he was an attorney general and then a judge. And yeah, we put him in that. We put him in, he plays Eddie Q in Super Pumped also. He's, you know, Rob is a, I think he's a great actor And I think he, I don't really understand why he didn't become a big movie star off this movie. Other than that the movie is so beloved by cinema, like people who love movies, but maybe it wasn't galvanizing in that way. But, you know, he did, it's funny, he was number one on the call sheet for that show Numbers and it did run for 100 episodes.

25:53He's had a, and then there was a show on Showtime where he was number one also on the call sheet. like he's had a great career but even i think he would say it could have been more in a way i've talked yeah i'm also under what he turned down i you know he probably turned down some really good stuff right when you gave me a podcast and you know that i did for 10 years but this was back in the days when we did it together i had mar on he was like on in the first year i did the podcast and i asked him these questions and i think he felt like he made some mistake like i think he felt like there were just some things that kind of went slightly sideways.

26:29But I got to tell you, he was so great on Billions. I mean, he was in many episodes, you know, and was every time he plays seen the other actors, like if it was Giamatti would come up and be like, I'm so happy to have Rob Morrow here. He's so great. Like everyone loved working with him. And I would work with that guy in a heartbeat. I feel like I feel like he's an excellent actor and a great dude and um i'm always happy to see him you know and and i think he's so good in this movie because you believe he's smart as dick goodwin like right ray fines is obviously you look at that guy and you go well that's a genius and it's hard to have somebody stand in there who you feel like can outplay him in the chess match and morrow's to me believable do you find him i find him very believable in terms of his like figuring this thing out you know it's funny because it's a

27:19Bill Simmons:great part and i think like five years later damon and norton are probably in the final two trying to get it right and then you go like maybe three years later leo's trying to get it and it's just one of those like age 28 to 33 american actor parts that you're just like i need this part this is a great part i gotta get it damon would have been great you're so right edward and matt either of those guys would have been unreal in that part yeah you're so right uh speaking of unreal paul Schofield, triple crown runner. One of the great Shakespeare actors of all time, apparently. Before my time. And it's funny.

27:58Bill Simmons:He gets nominated for this for Best Actor in, I think, one of the most controversial Oscar categories we've maybe ever had. Oh, wait, I don't know. He wasn't nominated as Best Supporting Actor? He was. Oh, Best Supporting Actor. Okay, yeah. So, this is when Martin Landau wins for Ed Wood. Right. Sam Jackson loses for Pulp Fiction. Chaz Palminteri gets nominated for Bullets Over Broadway. That is getting nudged out. Schofield for Quiz Show would be one of those that would be like, oh, get that guy out. But then you watch the movie and you're like, this guy's incredible? Like, yeah, it makes sense.

28:37Bill Simmons:And then Gary Sinise as Forrest Gump. Oh, right. As Lieutenant Dan. But we lose out. We don't get Bruce Willis from Pulp Fiction. We don't get Ving Rhames from Pulp Fiction. There's a whole bunch of other movies from this year that had some possibilities. That's what happened. But Schofield is a real legendary. Not quite Olivier, but maybe a level two all-time Shakespeare guy that everybody revered. I think Schofield's so good in this movie that there's no doubt he deserved the nomination, even with all the things he just said he's so good and i heard a story today i called um paul atanasio and i was like i'm not going to mention you he goes no you can you can say that so atanasio said that paul scofield used to go on i'd never heard this till i heard this an hour ago he said that paul scofield used to go on a silent retreat once a year for a month but redford wanted this thing you're saying about how redford but redford wants him in the movie but back then there's no cell phones and he's on a silent retreat or there are cell phones in 94, but they're not smartphones.

29:50You know, you're not texting a guy, uh, to whatever. So he's on a silent retreat on an, on the Isle of Man or someplace like that. That's what, and, and Redford's like, no, no, no, it's gotta be Paul Schofield. And they're like, nobody can find Paul Schofield. We can't get him.

30:04Bill Simmons:Yeah. And Redford's like, where is he? And they figure out that the place that he is, there's a lighthouse and that there has to be a guy in the lighthouse. And so they find a way to contact the guy in the lighthouse and they get him to come down from the lighthouse and go find Paul Schofield and say, you got to come to the lighthouse and call Robert Redford. And so he does - During a silent retreat. Yeah, gets him off the silent retreat. He goes to the lighthouse, calls Redford. And then Redford's like, I need you to come do this movie. And he's like, all right, I'll get my tie to play with around my neck for the movie.

30:40That's how Mike Coleman recruited Aaron Rodgers to the Steelers.

30:43Bill Simmons:Same story. Yeah, same thing. Ayahuasca, whatever that's called, retreat. Yeah. Oh, I left out a Rob Morrow quote. He said, because everybody was going after him and he decided to quiz show. His quote was, I knew this was the one. It had the cachet of Bob Redford. It was incredibly well-written. Did people call Robert Redford Bob? Was he a Bob? I never met him, but everyone calls him Bob. He's a Bob. I did not call him Bob. I never met him, but they all call him Bob. Yeah. Even today, like, Atanasio called him Bob today. He was like, well, Bob really wanted him. Yes, they call him Bob. Bob Redford.

31:23Bill Simmons:And then Bobby De Niro? He gets that one, right? A little bit? That's a tough... So, Marty, it's definite. If you know Scorsese, you've been around, you've got to call him Marty. Well, yeah, that's a Marty. You have no choice. but to call him Marty. Yeah. I would say everybody does call De Niro Bob, but it's tough to get it out of your mouth. You want to call him Robert. It's tough to get it out of your mouth. Yeah. This got nominated for Best Picture. The other nominees were Shawshank Pulp Fiction, Four Weddings and a Funeral, and the winner of Forrest Gump. And then Redford was nominated as director.

32:04Zemeckis won for Forrest Gump

32:07Bill Simmons:Tarantino nominated Frank Darabont for Shawshank Not nominated And then we have the best Writing on screenplay Based on material previously published Adonacio nominated for that But Forrest Gump Won that one too Forrest Gump now I've kind of circled back Forrest Gump's a really good movie There was a lot of movie nerd hatred for it for a while because it took all this stuff, but it's a tough one. I mean, I personally vote for Shawshank because you take a short story and you make one of the great American movies the last 35 years out of it. So many great movies that year. Yeah, I never dissed Forrest Gump.

32:48I definitely think Pulp Fiction or Shawshank should have won a lot of these awards and Quiz Show right there. Well, Pulp on screenplay.

32:57Bill Simmons:Screenplay, yeah, I know. So Quiz Show,$31 million budget, made$52 million. Roger Ebert, three and a half stars and I gotta say we've done this Roger Ebert segment for a while and I always read the review and I try to pull a thing out of it I thought this was one of the best reviews I ever read from him I'll tweet it from the Rewatchables Twitter account, it's just great because it's kind of less about the movie and more about what the movie's about which he didn't really do always he would do the traditional movie reviews and then sometimes he would get set off on a tangent, but he said the screenplay was smart and subtle and ruthless.

33:34Bill Simmons:It's careful to place blame where it belongs. But I really liked this part. There's a theological belief that it is a greater sin to tempt than to be tempted. And this movie firmly reminds us of that. Now, take stock of what we've lost in the four decades since 21 came crashing down. We have lost a respect for intelligence. We reward people for whatever they happen to have learned instead of feeling they might learn more. We've forgotten that the end does not justify the means, especially when the end is a high TV rating or any other kind of popular success. And we have lost a certain innocent idealism.

34:11Bill Simmons:Raj fucking cooking nails it. Like he really, I think he really liked what this movie was about and had a couple of small flaws with it. But, but yeah, he nailed it. We're going to take a break and we're going to do the most rewatchable scene. This summer, FanDuel is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers, voles, headers. Every goal is worth more on FanDuel. So, let there be goals. New customers get up to$1 ,000 and bet reset tokens when you bet$5 daily. 21 plus and present in select states. Opt-in required. Refund issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt.

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34:57Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Catherine Bigelow, the Oscar-winning director of The Hurt Locker and Zero Dark Thirty, two movies we need to do in the rewatchables, is back with A House of Dynamite, a cinematic visceral thriller about America's race to respond to an anonymous missile launch. I just know I'm going to like this. Under the pressure of a ticking clock, the film's characters are called to make impossible decisions with implications for all of civilization. That includes us. while at the same time confronting their own emotions and humanity. A House of Dynamite. It's on Netflix, October 24th.

35:33Bill Simmons:All right, most rewatchable scene. Stemple's first scene and the way they frame that quiz show. My only question is, would you go for the actual first scene when Rob Morrow's buying the Chrysler? It's an amazing, that's an incredible scene. The Chrysler thing's incredible. Walk me through the case for it. I can, though I do think it's ruined by the end of it. The button of that scene is the one moment that for me is like too obvious, you know, when the Sputnik thing. But right up until there, it's like as good, it's Mad Men. It's like an episode of Mad Men in this little tiny sliver 20 years before Mad Men.

36:10It's incredible. And it tells you everything about the era and about the guy that we're talking. I mean, it sets up for later when he's like too rich for my blood. It's like, it's a perfect setup. for who this character is. And it's a setup for America and where America was and what a car meant. But then the end of it, when they bring in this idea of Sputnik, it's the one, it is to me the only moment in the whole movie that tries too hard is that moment. But it doesn't ruin it for me. And I would have another argument for most rewatchable scene, but go ahead, you tell me what's the most rewatchable to you.

36:43I wrote down, I have nine.

36:46Bill Simmons:Okay, go. Stemple's first scene, Herbie's dead. but just like going into an actual 50s game show the way they did and the little phone booths, you're watching it from the prism now of like, oh, I'm thinking like could this work? Would this exact idea work in 2025? You're thinking a whole bunch of things. The Van Doren interview where Zara's like, I got the guy I got the guy, I got the guy and they do the little cat and mouse game with him and it's unclear if he took the bait or not is just really strong stuff. And I agree with you on the Pamer's area comedy team thing. It's funny. Totoro flipping out when Pamer tells him to lose.

37:31Bill Simmons:For 70 grand herb, you can afford to be humiliated. Van Doren beating Stemple. And you know he knows the answer. You don't know if he's going to flip. And then just say, fuck it. I'm saying Marty. What are they going to do? and then it goes to to Van Doren and they give him the question that they gave him in the audition and he said he wouldn't do it yeah and you know what's great about this I love movies with the what would you do moment oh that's great yeah where you're in it and you're like alright what would I do cause you like to think like well I'd be idealistic I wouldn't I would be like get the you know I'd be like I'm not participating in this I told you I didn't want to do it this way and you guys tried to fuck me so I'm out but then you start thinking about oh this is one of the 20 biggest shows on TV oh there's money at stake and you just sell your principles not even that all that for sure but also that other behavioral economic stuff of everyone going along with it and can you be the one lone voice like imagine trying to get out of your things oh I heard this question before like you know how hard it would be to say those words though the movie does such a good job because when they build to the big scene and when Van Dorn's like, throw in the money, throw in the whole thing, would you do it?

38:55And Rob Morrow just goes, no. And he goes, but I would. But you believe Morrow wouldn't. I do when I'm watching the movie. I believe Rob Morrow would not.

39:04Bill Simmons:I believe it too. I think the right answer would have been to say, I think there's been a mistake. I know the answer to that, but because of my audition, they asked me that question. So I think that's an error on your side. I agree. I know the answer, but give me another question. That's what I think I would, when I've rehearsed this in my head, that's exactly what I think I would have said. But you're right to say, it makes us all kind of imagine that we would do the right thing, but who really knows? Well, they say to Pamer afterwards, how'd you know he'd go for it? What would you do? Like, he's just like, of course he was going to go for it.

39:35Bill Simmons:It's human nature. You're going to go for it. I wrote down the montage. I love a good montage. The things are looking up for Charles Van Doren montage. Highest ratings ever. Newspapers, new apartment you know you always need the creepy moment when you pretend the fake shoe tie yeah yeah the fake shoe tie in the back of the limo right to try to try to wait till the kids get up time the girls and everything yeah as Herb unravels so the chocolate cake scene Charlie versus Dad which we gotta give the Big Kahuna Burger Award for best use of food or drink to the chocolate cake unless you wanna give it to Geritol good for the blood tired blood yeah good for your blood um Um, Van Doren dumps it.

40:17Bill Simmons:Stemple's testimony. The TV president lobbying Charles, including quotes like speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact. Ooh, dark scene. Television is a public trust. We can't afford even a hint of a scandal. Just like classic evil 1950s white CEO guy. Uh, Charles confesses to his dad. Schofield goes to another level on this. That's an incredible moment They gave you the answers You got the answers And then Charles' statement Which is really the Nepo baby mantra I've stood on the shoulders of life And I've never gotten down in the dirt to build To erect a foundation of my own I've flown too high on borrowed wings Everything came too easy Great stuff And then the ending if you want to throw that in too My favorite stretch is Van Doren beating Stemple through the montage to the untying of the shoe.

41:20Bill Simmons:Like that whole stretch of the movie I really enjoy. Me too. But I would throw in... Okay. For me, my favorite... The thing that I've rewatched so many times is the run when they almost become friends. Like to me, that run when they almost become friends. and they meet at the Athenaeum Club and you're brought into that world that goes all the way through that trip to Connecticut when you meet all those people because that sets the movie up in a way. And it's like the hunter and the prey, but the hunter's not sure that he wants to pick up the gun and shoot the prey because it's a beautiful gazelle.

41:59And it's like, am I really going to shoot this gazelle? I don't know. You know that moment when the father's like, we don't even have a TV. And then Charlie's ego is so, you know, Charlie's talking about the money. And then he gives him that big TV. And there's something about that sequence of, um, you know, that's a good point.

42:16Bill Simmons:That's a great scene. The whole picnic table, rich, rich family in Connecticut scene. Cause I've never seen, it's like the kind of thing where, however I grew up, you know, like, yeah, I didn't grow up poor. I didn't, I grew up fine. Um, but I never saw that, you know, I mean, well, it's like when the Kennedys would be at Hyannisport every year playing touch football on some football field lawn. it's like I you know I think maybe part of it is growing up as like a Jewish kid from wherever even though uh and watching him go to that restaurant and go like you know the Rubens the only totally invented sandwich and and then he goes I don't see a lot of Rubens in here and it is like he's getting to be on the inner sanct he's getting to be in the inner sanctum and he has to make this decision do I want to stay in this inner sanctum or do I want to do my job And it's one of those, and it's interesting, right?

43:06Because Atanasio does the same thing in Donnie Brasco. There's something about the outsider coming in, getting a little bit seduced by the world, and then am I going to do my job? Or am I going to, having finally gotten on the inside, hey, I like how this feels on the inside of this world. It's really cushy and special, and I feel like I'm part of that. I don't know, the movie seduces, for me, the movie seduces you as he's getting seduced, and I think it's so hard to do like when you talk about as a screenplay I can't imagine how you write those sequences and then that emotion just adds up and adds up and I think I think you just have so many feelings about because I think from the beginning you kind of hate Van Doren but then you kind of see Van Doren in a way through through Charlie's eyes I mean through Dick Goodwin's eyes and you kind of can't can't hate him because Dick Goodwin's kind of falling in love with him.

44:06I'm with you. All right.

44:09Bill Simmons:So we disagree on rewatchables. Will we agree on what's the most 1994 thing about this movie? Tell me. My nominees are Rob Morrow getting top credit billing over Ralph Fiennes. I did notice that. But I think the answer is just 1994 Marty Scorsese. Love it. Just having him at the exact age he's at makes me know that it's rooted in like exactly this year. Oh, while we're there for 1994 though, because I, when you, another way I looked at that 1994 question since the movie set in the 50s was like, I was like, what's the most 1950s thing about the movie? What's that? Geritol. Well, Geritol for sure.

44:48But also the use of the word beatnik to convey the idea that he was gay. The gay artist living downtown. And he goes, why? because the Greenwich Village beatnik says it.

45:01Bill Simmons:When was the last time anyone said Gentiles and Jews? Sure, that too. But when did that end? Like 1972? I don't even know. It certainly wasn't. Yeah, somewhere in our childhood. Somewhere in our childhoods. Like someone was like, are we inviting the Gentiles to the bar mitzvah and someone else was like, should we let that go? Let's let it go. Yeah, cut. Let's just let that go and be done. But wait, I do want to point out two other people who are in this movie. we didn't mention and we should, and this is a good moment because of the time. So the guy who plays that beatnik, that's based on, for all the changes, that's a real guy.

45:35James Snodgrass, that guy really did save the answers. But that's played by this amazing guy named Douglas McGrath, who died a couple years ago and was a great filmmaker and screenwriter. He actually wrote Bullets Over Broadway with Woody. He also wrote the play, the Carole King play, and made that movie Emma. and he was this one of the funniest best guys in the world he was in solitary man and we loved this this was a really one of the greatest guys you ever met in your life and he died super young like super tragically uh like an out of nowhere heart attack in his like early 50s but a really special person and then ben shankman's in the opening scene was like a great actor who's been in a million things like in pie and also a lot of episodes billions and he's giving uh he gives maro shit at the beginning it's just an all over the place these that guy incredible actors.

46:28Bill Simmons:What's age the best? We mentioned the 1950s rich people circles, which I think Ripley still is the pantheon for that. That's the highest level when we're in like Italy and all over the place with Freddie and Jude Law and the whole crew. The father-son stuff, we talked about a couple times already, but the dynamic and they don't spend a ton of time in scenes with them, but you know the dynamic immediately. You can tell the weight of the dad, both professionally and as just a character and just how revered he is. You can tell how the son has a lot of stuff going for him on his own, but he's still in the shadow a little bit and there's a deference with the dad.

47:13Bill Simmons:I just think that stuff's really hard to pull off. You know what else I think aged really great? Rigged reality shows. Right? Rigged reality shows are everywhere you turn. It's all rigged reality shows. Yeah, nobody would even care now. Every reality, I mean, we all just assume that, like, basically every reality show has some level of riggedness on it. And this was the first one. And, you know, I just think that that idea that you tell people what to say on a supposed reality show and it might affect the world turns out to be true. Yeah, 50 years later, you have Lauren Conrad and Brody Jenner pretending they're dating for the entire last season of The Hills.

48:00Bill Simmons:And then it ends, and they do a wide shot, and it's like a Hollywood set in the background. It's like, wait, did you just fake that entire show? But yeah, by the 2000s, we were doing this openly. Yeah, you make a guy a boss of a real estate empire, and then he becomes boss of... I mean, you do that too. More with Sage the Best. You know, I really liked when kids wanted to be Joe DiMaggio That's awesome I was just like hearing that in a movie It really seems like there was about a 10 year stretch Where people are just like All I want to do is be Joe DiMaggio And then it got replaced by Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays Dude, that's brilliant All I want to do is be one of these two guys I don't know who that is now On your TikTok, because speaking of Forrest Gump Has it come through on your TikTok or Instagram Tom Hanks telling them meeting Joe DiMaggio story?

48:47What is it? it's really for you. He was in a restaurant. No, I mean, he was in a restaurant. Hanks tells it. I don't know. I just saw it on TikTok. But Hanks, it's come up like 10 times recently, and I watch it all the way through. He's in a restaurant, and the maitre d' comes up and goes, Mr. DiMaggio wonders if you'd like to go say hello to him at his table. And Hanks is like, runs over to the table and gets to spend 10 minutes with DiMaggio. And he talks about how easy DiMaggio made it look. And DiMaggio looks at him and goes, it didn't feel easy in here. Wow. You'll find it.

49:22Bill Simmons:Hank's telling the story. He's great. Wow, that's like the last level of fame when you send somebody over to be like, Brian Koppelman wonders if you'd like to come over and say hi to him at his table. And if you're talking about it, you just jump to go say hi. You're in the middle of some friends telling you they're about to get divorced. You're like, hold on one second. Just jump him on. It's DiMaggio I gotta go Hold on Finish that divorce story later Do you think anyone Even a day younger than you Understands why he races To Joe DiMaggio's table Like we do Growing up with Mr. Coffee And just like the legend of it I think we're probably the last I'm probably the last Mid-50s is probably the End of that Because I remember in Seinfeld When they had the episode Where Joe DiMaggio Was at the counter Yeah That was kind of the tail end Of when that joke would've worked Yeah yeah Yeah I think it's over And he played for the Yankees And he was married to Maryland and Rout.

50:16Bill Simmons:Of course. Great. Unbelievable. 56. You and I still know 56 games, but I don't know if people know that or care. 56 straight hits. 56 hits. 56 straight games with a hit. I don't know if people like... 56 straight games. One hit a game at least. Probably the greatest record. Don't you think you've just known that from me? I know that from my dad. The greatest attainable record ever. Nobody else has gotten a 45. but don't you think that's like we just know that from our fathers like because I know that from as little as I I know that my entire life that statistic from my father I'm 59 so I'm a couple years old I didn't know that my whole life well we had the signature statistics that you just knew by heart I don't know if there tons of them because there wasn't we had to no we had to memorize them because we couldn't just go look them up true good point you only had like a book yeah like Maris like I don't even know if kids know Maris now Like, I don't know if they know.

51:14Even with the movie, I don't know if they know. They shouldn't. No one says they have to either. But, you know, I knew what Bob, I mean, I knew Bob McAdoo's, I knew what Bob McAdoo's, what his average was when he, at Buffalo, when he won the scoring title. You know what I mean?

51:27Bill Simmons:That was the whole point of the baseball basketball cards, was they had the stats on the back. I was like, oh. Quick more what's age the best. Levinson and Scorsese, we mentioned. The actual YouTube clip of the entire show, which I sent to you when Stemple throws the show with Marty. It's on YouTube. You can watch the whole thing. And it's kind of amazing to watch him blow the answer and not be quite a good enough actor to pull it off. But nobody knew any better at the time. But you can really see him intentionally doing it. Unbelievable screenwriting, man. Because as you know, that wasn't really the climactic moment of that episode.

52:06No.

52:06Bill Simmons:It kept going and going. But Paul Atanasio clearly realized okay, that's drama. I can make a lot of drama out of that. And he did it. Really great stuff. Still need him to write that script about the 94 finals. What's age the best? Geritol, America's number one tonic. Just how I'm the present Geritol was. It's just so funny as we get older and these things that were huge for us once upon a time, like Kodak, Geritol, and these things just go away. And it makes you think like, what are the things now that 20 years from now be like yeah instagram it's just gone just got sold for five dollars well there were so many of those things bill like bear aspirin and then there was that other one anison anison yeah i hadn't thought that in 25 years so you just said folger folger's coffee does folger's coffee still exist folger's they still yeah they still make jingles and shit but but like bear anison was like as much as there was bear every bear ed it would be like Bear and Aniston.

53:10Now, where'd Aniston go? What happened to that guy?

53:13Bill Simmons:How about Woolworths? We had on the East Coast, we had Caldors, like the Caldors, whatever it's called. Van Doren's dad, at one point in this movie, does the they're talking about poker, and he does the, if you can't spot the sucker at the table, you are the sucker routine. I was like, rounders, Koppelman. That was your homage. You grabbed it. Well, it's an incredible thing. He says it casually. It's amazing. Yeah. Every time I see it in the movie, I'm like... I know that consciously... I remember when Dave and I wrote the line, we definitely weren't calling it to ourselves. But of course, that's the way this all works.

53:48And we definitely heard the line in that movie because we'd seen the movie more than once. I loved it. But I also love when Mauro goes, well, I don't know if I'm a gambler, but I know which end of an ace is up. Right.

54:00Bill Simmons:Same scene. Great shot, Gordo. What do you have? Most cinematic shot? Yeah, I don't know. That was the one... Probably the thing you already said, like that whole opening sequence where those moving camera shots throughout that whole thing where you feel like you're being just, it's really editing, but it is cinematography too, where the camera's moving you all around NBC and the game show thing. And it's kind of amazing, you know. I agree. I think it's multiple moments in that first scene. Chess Rockwell, Brock Lander's Award, best character name. Charles Van Doren. How is that a real name? Incredible.

54:36Bill Simmons:It's like, how can we come up with the waspiest most powerful sounding name ever how about Charles Van Doren the Butch's Girlfriend Award for week link of the film I mentioned this already but this is really from a rewatchable standpoint just Herb Stemple just a tough hang you're one of the only people who have probably watched this movie 50 times but Herb's like Herb's a lot I can't argue Craig will you come in for a second yeah Herb's a lot Herb is a lot But Herb is You know the little man He's all of us We all are all We are all Herb You know We are all Herb Yeah This is great Okay I think Craig liked this movie Alright Craig we'll bring you back in a second What's age the worst We mentioned Mauro's Boston accent Oh did you have a weak link by the way You love this movie You probably didn't Alright What's age the worst Mauro's Boston accent mentioned An all timer Geritol being important so this sent me down a geritol rabbit hole to what happened to geritol yeah they started in 1959 started getting investigated by the FTC because they were pushing this wait and what year right after you mean like right after this like right as this was happening yeah it was a tough time so they were they were basically saying like it was a remedy for a tiredness and it made your blood stronger but what they found out was it really was only effective for people with anemia so then they had to disclose most people with fatigue do not have iron deficiency would not benefit from geritol tough one then they had a little comeback in 1972 with the ad which i know you remember where the guy looks at the camera and he's talking about his wife he goes my wife i think i'll keep her and all the everybody got pissed off and it was a controversial ad but it actually worked.

56:27Bill Simmons:And they had a run basically until 1979 and it finally ended. Now Geritol's. But yeah, that's it. Nice little 25-year run for Geritol selling basically a shaman product. It was like a fake product. Snake oil. It really was. Drink this. Your blood will be better. That's what Scorsese's saying in the movie when he goes, I mean, I sell Geritol. It's incredible. And then in the actual game show cover-up, I have this as a What's Age of Worse. I kind of fucked with quiz shows and game shows for a while. Like, they really, like, went into a major slump and then came back during my childhood in the 70s.

57:08Bill Simmons:Ironically, one of the ones was Joker's Wild, which Jack Barry was the host of. But there was so much scrutiny on how they did these shows and all these laws changed and they just became harder to do. So it fucked it up. It wasn't the only show. All right, the historical accuracy stuff while we're on What's Age of Worse. They took three years of the scandal, compressed it into one. They made it Van Doren's choice to incorrectly answer a question in his own choice, but it was actually NBC's. The score stuff was 21-21, and then the game kept going. They made it seem like it didn't when he took the title.

57:46Bill Simmons:Goodwin's, there's a lot of stuff about Goodwin's role in the investigation, which was less important than how the movie made it. That was where it got criticized, especially, this is right around the time they started going after each other with Oscar movies and PR campaigns. Yeah. And they really played up how kind of this was, you know, the word was used was dishonest. I don't know if it was dishonest, but they really played up this Goodwin thing. But Goodwin was an unbelievable character. I'm sure you've read about him a lot. Oh, yeah. I mean, just one of the most, I mean, a guy was a speechwriter for JFK, right there with Robert Kennedy, Doris Kearns, Goodwin's husband, and she wrote this amazing memoir about him.

58:20I mean, Dick Goodwin was an incredible figure of the last century.

58:24Bill Simmons:but there was way more people that I think were doing the investigation than just him so that was the issue I went down the big rabbit hole on this and yeah there were a bunch of dudes who actually did the legwork before Dick Goodwin got in there he got in there and then the only other big one was that Ben Doran did teach after the scandal and it was the one issue he had with the movie where he was like dude I kept teaching like I don't know why you put that in the credits so yeah he wrote this article in the new yorker i read it this morning like in 2008 van doren wrote this long article and if you read it like if you're if you're listening to this and you watch the movie it's funny because he's trying to it's one of those things where it's a guy writing to try to kind of defend himself but you come away from the from that article and you think yeah he'd do the same thing again like he had a huge ego and yeah he wanted fame and money and power and like you can feel that he wouldn't have done much different i don't think i think you should have changed your name to brian van koppelman you're right is it too late like better screenwriter name then you're like bvp like you i don't know call me bv call me bvp anytime you want it's fine um we have we're on the next category oh the cr thinks luke wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award.

59:49Bill Simmons:You probably don't have a hottest take, but I have one for both of us. Go. You give me the hot take. I have one, but you go for it. Go ahead. Oh, you go. I just think Rob Morrow should have become one of the world's biggest movie stars after this movie, like the alternate reality. I don't understand it. I don't know why he didn't just get cast in the next... Why wasn't he the lead of fucking Jurassic Park or the next whatever? I don't know. I think I might have an answer. Go ahead. I think there was a glut of really good... actors under 40 that he would have had to compete with parts for. And if you just put them in a time machine, 20 years later, he's probably better off.

1:00:26Bill Simmons:Like think all the people from that decade. Yeah. You look, I mean, you just rattled off all the guys who came. It's, I think you just said it to me. It's like all the guys who came after, cause you just mentioned Matt and Ben, but you didn't even mention Jude. I had another one. I didn't. Well, Jude, I had for recasting couch director of city. What about young Russell Crowe and the Rob Morrow part? Right. He would have, he would have killed it. Like we just had too many people. in the 90s. And I think he got lost in the shuffle a little bit. How about Philip Seymour Hoffman? Right. I mean, Wahlberg's in there too and Affleck and you just, and Hanks is in his peak at that point.

1:00:57Bill Simmons:And, you know, it just goes on and on. So I think that might, and then Clooney comes out of nowhere and Val Kilmer's there. You just, it's like an embarrassment of riches. And I don't really know, it's, I've talked about this before. It's almost like one of those NBA stretches like in the early 90s when we just had Hall of Famers all over the place. It's like, Jesus. what the hell I think that's a real I know Samaral was on TV but I think you're you're right but when I look at what he does in that movie and maybe it is as simple as the accent that some people didn't like it and other people popped but I look at it and I'm like man that guy should have been a movie star I agree with you and I'm sure he agrees we my hottest take is this if this movie comes out one year later it wins best film and best director wow Wow.

1:01:47Bill Simmons:What's the next year's movies? Remind me. Braveheart and Mel Gibson win in 95. And I think it beats both of those. And I think it would honestly have a pretty good case in 96 against English Patient, which won movie director as well. I just think it was bad luck coming out this year. And especially with Redford. There might have been a tiny bit of Redford fatigue too at this point because he had made his movie come back. He'd done sneakers. He'd done a decent proposal. He'd done river runs through it. He was doing Sundance and now quiz show. And I don't know if he had spaced it out two years, maybe casting what ifs Redford one and American for a van Doren couldn't find anybody kind of honed in on William Baldwin for a second.

1:02:38Bill Simmons:Couldn't get there and settled on Ralph Fiennes. William Baldwin getting a lot of calls back then. this one killed me turn down the role of Mark Van Doren Paul Newman oh it's a Paul Newman role leaving the Connecticut of it all right yeah but it ends up being Schofield and it's really like one of the Schofield's great I just as a Newman-Redford of course aficionado of that relationship which we've talked about in other rewatches that would have been really fun if Newman was the dad I don't know if he would Why did he turn it down, did they say? Did they have an answer? Didn't say. All right. And then Levinson was apparently originally attached to the project as a director.

1:03:23Bill Simmons:Couldn't do it because he was doing Bugsy. And then Redford just brought him in anyway. Then there's stuff online about Steven Soderbergh, allegedly with Tim Robbins as Charles Van Doren. I don't know. It didn't pass the sniff test to me. No, that's a... True or not true? That's true. Okay. Why do you seem like you don't want to talk about it? Is that your guy? Robbins? No. Robbins is the lead guy? I believe, I will say that, uh, I am not sure about the Tim Robbins part of that, but I, I do think that what you just brought up about, uh, who was supposed to do that movie is true. And it would have been incredible.

1:04:08If Soderbergh directed it, it would have been incredible.

1:04:10Bill Simmons:Well, they were trying to make it for the early part of the 90s. So they probably went to a couple people and then finally Redford wanted to do it. And that was that. They asked Charles Van Doren if he would be a consultant and offer him$100 ,000. And he said no. That's in this New Yorker article. His wife said she'd leave him if he did it. Or something like that. The Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge Overacting Award. Turturro dials it up a couple times. I'm just... Not a criticism, but if we're going for the overacting, I, you know, he dials it up. Best That Guy Award. David Payton, not eligible.

1:04:50Bill Simmons:I have one, but I want to know what you think it is. It has to be that guy. It can't be we... Normal people can't know his name. So who is it? There's a couple people at the poker game that I thought jumped out at me. Yeah, Jack Gilpin. Is it the poker game? Buzzfield's at the poker. No, you got to give it to Hank Azaria, because at the time, I think a lot of people, like, you got to give it to Hank. Hank is so fucking great in the movie. So your case is Hank was that guy at the time. He wasn't like his era yet. I don't think Hank was famous yet like he is now. He'd, you know, barely done, like, when did he come?

1:05:23He came out two years later, right?

1:05:25Bill Simmons:He's a year later. Yeah, he's like a Simpson voice. That's it. Nobody knows what he looks like. And he's so good in the movie. Like, he's so different than any other movie he's in. You just kind of believe he's that guy. And he does all that shit. Like, when he walks in, he's like, I think that their comic timing together is amazing but we're going to have a minute to talk about Pamer right? And about that like scene with Pamer and Well for me that's the other like not the most rewatchable scene but in a way maybe the best scene other than these couple we've mentioned is when Rob Morrow tells Pamer the acting performance that Pamer does when he's blowing him off blowing him off you know you're a very you know like whatever young man and then he goes yeah the thing is he sent the answers to himself registered mail and like everything changes on David Pamer's face and he just goes he goes to sit down why would he do that and then he sits down and and then he says I'll never roll over on NBC you know if they knew and they didn't know I'd never get back and it's like that moment when you started with television is going to get us.

1:06:37You know, that's the moment where Rob Margo's, I don't think you'll be working in the business again. And, and, and Pam was like, no, if I, if I tell them, if I, if I, if I rat out NBC, I'll never work in the business again. But he knew if he kept his mouth shut and he goes, television's all I know. It's my whole life. And he, I don't, there's something so he's such a villain and such a scumbag, the character, Dan Enright, the character he plays. And in that moment though, you understand he has some kind of code and he's knocking around on these guys. And he somehow knows to Rob Morrow, like, Hey dude, you don't understand American business the way I do.

1:07:13And what I know about American business is if I just keep my mouth shut and American business reward me for it. And then, you know, years later, that guy gets super rich. Creates Joker was wild with Jack Barry, like you said. And those guys are on television for another 25 years.

1:07:28Bill Simmons:Right. He's really good in this movie. My answer for Best That Guy controversial. It's Barry Levinson. Love it. Okay, fine. Because if you don't know what a director looks like, which is basically the entire country except for like a very select few, you see him in this movie and it's like, oh, it's the guy from the end of Rain Man. Right. Because that was the other movie he was in, right? Where he plays Raymond. Yeah. Would you rather go? The doctor. Yeah, the doctor. Would you rather live with your brother or go back to Overbrook, whatever it's called? Would you rather go to Sunnybrook or live with your brother?

1:08:04Bill Simmons:Would you want to live with your Sunnybrook with your brother? And he's just like, and Cruz is like, all right, that's enough, that's enough. But yeah, those are his two movies. I do love when directors are in movies. It's the best. Well, you've dabbled. I mean, sure. Yes. Yes, obviously, I'm in stuff. I love being in stuff. I'm going to put you in my movie. I'm going to cast you in my movie that I haven't read yet. I'm in. I had Dion Waiter's award clearly at San Cazaria. Love it. He's not in the movie that much. Every time he's in, he's thrown 98 miles an hour. I thought he was the winner. And then I mentioned recasting couch.

1:08:39Bill Simmons:Young Russell Crowe would have been really interesting in this. Catching him at a really cool point in his career where nothing's really happened yet. I think he's the right age. Anyway, we'll take one more break and then we got a flex category from Craig. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremphaya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremphaya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required.

1:09:20Tremphaya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis.

1:09:29Bill Simmons:Serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphaya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit TremfireRadio.com. This episode is brought to you by Pure Michigan. In Grand Rapids, every moment feels like a scene worth replaying. Every riverside stroll, every slow afternoon sipping small batch brews, every guitar riff drifting out of the city's brand new amphitheater.

1:10:10Bill Simmons:This is a place where everything feels cinematic. Like you've stepped into a highlight reel that's yours to explore. Ranked as the number one city on the rise from LinkedIn Grand Rapids invites you to find a rhythm all your own Season after season in pure Michigan Find your season at experiencegr.com You can now watch Rewatchables on Spotify And The Ringer's first ever television channel Yeah, you heard me Available exclusively on Samsung TV Plus The subscription-free streaming destination Bringing you the best of TV Also, really good TV, Samsung. Rewatch some of our greatest hits like Back to the Future, Alien, The Sandlot, and many more on the all-day Ringer channel.

1:10:54Bill Simmons:You can also settle in and catch up with the other Ringer favorites, including House of Bar, The Big Picture, even highlights from Book of Basketball 2.0. To watch, all you have to do is open the Samsung TV Plus app on your Samsung TV or Galaxy mobile device, navigate to the Ringer channel, and boom, you're in. All right, Craig's here. He's got a flex category. What do you got? I don't know if this is a full Sasha Jenkins award for the actor. You can't believe it didn't become a bigger star, but it's a mini version of that. And I just want to shout out Christopher McDonald, who plays Jack Barry, who I just think is great every time I've seen him in a movie.

1:11:31He's obviously Shooter McGavin, and he almost kind of got typecasted as that. But I just love him. I think he's got great timing. He's so slick. He's good looking. He can kind of do a lot. He's got a great sense of humor. I feel like maybe you guys can tell me he was a bigger star than I thought, but I feel like he never really became a thing.

1:11:48Bill Simmons:He was not a bigger star than you thought. I don't really understand it. It feels like he just should have been on some hit sitcom for like seven years, just crushing it. Like the brother on Everybody Loves Raymond or something on top of doing all those movie things. But I think he's gotten this belated run though, I think. One notch too handsome to be a character actor, not quite a leading man, and falls in this... Tweener. tweener where he's neither but he's great i agree with you great all the time note perfect it's a great call craig but i think it's because he doesn't feel like he doesn't feel like a character actor but he is and he's not quite a leading man because there's something so almost slick and smooth yeah and so it's kind of like yeah it just he is just sort of in but it's a game you know why he looks like a game show host so yeah he's really well cast shouting out that movie bonnie timmerman i mean he's so good that scene where goodwin just one of my favorite scenes is when goodwin discovers the tell in the episode oh yeah when he's watching the old tapes and he sees jack barry like stumble and get and the script is wrong uh mcdonald is so good in that he's so natural the double take he does and he's like yeah with james snodgrass and that's james snodgrass moment when he yeah the guy who gave the answers to himself totally man i just also love those scenes in movies when it was one person notices something on the tape like even it's like Joaquin Phoenix and signs when he sees the alien.

1:13:10Anytime somebody sees something on tape, amazing scene. Anyway.

1:13:13Bill Simmons:Blue chips. Yes, blue chips. No, man, not Tony. Not Tony. Tony's a good kid. The best moment. It's a good kid. Oh, how about an air? It's like an air when he's like, you're looking at it wrong, and he keeps pointing to Jordan. Yeah. Right. An air, look at him. He's about to take the biggest shot of his life. Yeah. I'm really glad we got to give out the Sasha Jenkins Award. I don't feel like we give that out enough. Can you remind me what that's from? It's from Dazed and Confused. He's Don Dawson, the guy with the overalls. Oh. And if you only watch Dazed and Confused, you would think Sasha Jenkins became one of the 10 biggest stars in the world.

1:13:47Bill Simmons:That's right. He's hilarious. He's good looking. He's like a funny Tim Riggins. But Christopher McDonald's way more, just to your point about whether he's a bigger star, I mean, way more famous because Shooter McGavin and this movie are these cultural things. Yeah. I'm saying he's way more famous than Sasha Jenkins. Yeah, it's weird. it worked out for him correctly. He's also really good in dirty work with Norm MacDonald, which we've done. Norman, yeah. Yeah. All right, Craig, we'll see you at the end. Half-assed in our research. We've done a few of these. Charles Van Doren drove a red Mercedes-Benz 300SL Roadster, which is now worth seven figures easy, if you can find one.

1:14:28Bill Simmons:21 ran for three seasons, peaked at number 21 in the ratings, canceled in 1959, revived in 2000 with Maury Povich? I have no recollection of this. Me neither. Do you remember that? No. Maury Povich hosted 21? Literally, I don't remember that. Mid-90s, you and I weren't watching game shows. No, probably not. And then you mentioned Barry and Enright go in exile. Enright moves to Canada. Barry doesn't host another national show for over a decade. They come back with Joker's Wild in the early 70s. One of the many things I credit to the fact that I love to gamble, Joker's Wild. Yes. fantastic show that and Card Sharks two of my favorites unlike the 90s and the 70s we were watching game shows oh yeah that's what I'm saying that was like one of our only connections to celebrities we would come home from school and just watch game shows yeah like yes Joker's Wild was tremendous and it made them very rich Apex Mountain Redford directed movies oh wow yeah I mean for me but River Runs a lot of people would say River Runs through it right I would say ordinary people still.

1:15:34Okay. I think that movie's amazing. I mean, for me, this obviously, but I can't argue with that. It won the best picture, so how am I going to argue with it? Mary Tyler Moore is such a monster.

1:15:44Bill Simmons:I just, it was on, I watched the last hour of it, don't ask me why, a couple weeks ago. She's such a monster in that movie. It's like her and Jack Torrance in The Shining, and they're like worse than Michael Myers and Jason Voorhees. Did you cry? Did you cry? Just watching the last hour? Yeah, awesome. I got a little choked up. I gotta be honest Awesome I never cry When I watch stuff Like the last episode Of Task There's a really sad Scene in it And I think it would've Gotten me like 20 years ago And it didn't 100 % get me No I just like Really hard to make me Get choked up You get choked up When you watch stuff?

1:16:20Yeah but it depends I gotta be Yes It can Yeah Yes I could still Yeah Something great Like if something's great It can still Get me like But, yeah, we have our defenses are more up now because when you get a little older, it costs you more when you go through something like that. Right, true.

1:16:41Bill Simmons:Ray Fiennes, it's probably English patient, but it's right around here because he made Strange Days a year after, which is one of the many hilarious, like, khaki movies from the mid-90s. No, but Amon Goeth is not. No, Amon Goeth is his high point, right? And Schindler's. Yeah, but it's more like the... I always have to explain Apex Mountain. It's when did he have the juice where he could have done whatever movie he wanted. It's right around here. Right. Because English Patience, 96. This is late 94. So it's somewhere in this mix. Paul Schofield, the answer is no. 1960s would be for him. Jack Barry?

1:17:28I don't know.

1:17:29Bill Simmons:I mean, everybody watched TV in 1958. I can't imagine he was more famous than right here. No, your Ray Fiennes answer is really good. I like your answer. Chris McDonald? Probably Happy Gilmore. Geritol, definitely. Because it all comes crashing down in 1959. The Habsburg Lip, which gets mentioned when Ray Fiennes is throwing it. Did you know what a Habsburg Lip was? No And there's a jaw too I did Google deep dive I didn't know about all this inbreeding With this one royal family And it made their jaws Kind of stuck to a nest And it looked like this Primo Carnera Maybe Primo Carnera Primo Carnera Might be Might be that Maybe that moment Yeah Nepo babies Probably not No Quiz show movies Yes Because I can't think of a better quiz show movie Turturro no horrific Boston accents in a movie.

1:18:37Bill Simmons:It's bad, but I'm not going to say it's the worst. Okay, how about cigars in a movie? No, there's been better cigars. I guess, but Sorvino was before. Yeah, Sorvino. I guess Sorvino in... Here's my big one. Rob Morrow, who's still on Northern Exposure at this point when this movie comes out. And yet it's not as Apex Mountain, because his Apex Mountain was in 1992 as Northern Exposure was exploding. And he hosted Saturday Night Live with musical guest Nirvana. Wow. Yeah. That's it. That's like the definition of Apex Mountain. It was their first appearance. That's pretty good, Bill. He's still in the TikTok Instagram.

1:19:17Bill Simmons:He's like, ladies and gentlemen, Nirvana. And then they just kick it as Smollett. Smells like Teen Spirit. Cruiser Hanks. Who do you have? Cruz. No, I know. Cruz. Cruz for what part? I think Cruz as Dick Goodwin would have been kind of amazing. I think it's Cruz and Hanks and Cruz is yuppie Van Doren. Hanks is Goodwin. But if you think about Cruz in the mode from Rain Man where he's just like a hard... Where he's this killer guy in the beginning of the movie when he's like... They're making fun of him. in the, all right, okay. I think he over-cruises the movie. Okay. Wait, Craig, come on for this.

1:20:01Bill Simmons:I think Cruz comes in. He's right in the, he made a few good men a year before. He's still in that Cruz over the top. I got to have one or two scenes where I do Cruz stuff. And I don't think he pulls it back. I don't think he had the ability to pull it back enough as Goodwin. What do you think, Craig? I think he just makes more sense as like the slick East Coast wealthy. I think he could pull that off as the son. But he never played a guy who read, but he never, I don't think he, I think he chose his role so smart, but just so intelligently because I don't think he plays a guy who spent all that time in the library that Charles Van Doren did.

1:20:43That's fair. I don't know if he has that bookish appeal maybe. I don't know if he could pull that off. So I was going to say. He studies in the firm, but it's like they're making me, you know, I got to study. But you never feel like he's a guy who loves learning for the sake of learning, which is that's the whole thing about these, you know, like, like Van Doren did know. That's that great moment when Turturro's like, say a number, you know, and then he rattles off. It's like these people did know an incredible amount of shit. They were really smart and educated. They just unfortunately were human.

1:21:15Bill Simmons:I was going to go late 80s Hanks as Van Doren. and he kind of I think I can't remember the movie maybe it was Volunteers where he played like a wealthy like hoity-toity kind of character like this but I think he could have done it so you say Craig you said Hanks or Cruz? I'll go Hanks I've been convinced that it's Hanks alright Hanks wins Scorsese or Spielberg? ironically Scorsese is in this who better director I'm gonna say Spielberg for this

1:21:49Koppelman's wheels turn. Curtis Hansen.

1:21:52Bill Simmons:No, it's Scorsese or Spielberg. I think Curtis Hansen. I would say Scorsese. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? He would have been the best freaking Charles Van Doren, whoever Charles Van Doren'd. It's funny. I think he could have played either the Azaria or the Pamer part. I think he absolutely could have played either Van Doren because older Philip Seymour Hoffman easily could have played the dad amazing yeah yeah he could have pick a point in his lap but yeah I think that Charles Van Doren like the early version when he was skinnier like mid 90s maybe probably could have done it I mean my favorite probably my favorite actor who ever lived so pick a nits oh yeah why didn't Herb just take the $69 ,000 at the start of the show and stop playing oh I'm sorry you and I have the same knit which is how did the money work?

1:22:48My net is how did the money work? They never explain what are you risking?

1:22:52Bill Simmons:They keep saying it's like, you risk it all if you play again. Like, okay. Because the real - They want me to lose anyway. I'll take 70. Thanks. Did you go look this part up? I know you do all the internet research. I looked it up. I know the answers to some of this now. So what's the answer? They had side deals, man. Because it was rigged, they had side deals. So Herb wasn't getting 70. He really was getting like 35K. Like they all made agreements that there was a give back and there was a certain amount they were really getting like appearance fees, like someone got 25K to be on the show, Van Doren.

1:23:21Like they, they would pay you certain amounts of money as opposed to the prize money. The prize money was another fiction, but they never in the movie explain when they go, you're risking it. And even when we watched that thing, 2000 a point, but what does that mean? Like they don't explain how the money works, which today you would have to, people would drive you too crazy. If you were making the movie, you'd have to explain it, but the movie works without it. But if I had to pick a knit, that's my knit too.

1:23:43Bill Simmons:Yeah, I mean, the bigger thing with this movie is back then people actually really did care about what they were learning with the answers. There's still a Jeopardy audience that really cares about the actual facts and the questions and the things they're answering. But the society we have now with reality TV, these shows like The Wall or the show where the ball just bounces down and maybe goes into a hole, it's really about how much money somebody wins and they just get dumber and dumber and dumber. for the goal of just winning money, this was like a completely different era. 100%. Like Scorsese says, just to make the questions, dumber.

1:24:19Bill Simmons:He lays it out. He lays it out in the movie. That's exactly what happened. The Reuben sandwich thing, it was another nitpick for me. I don't... To say only one person ever invented a sandwich is fucking insane. Of course. I could invent a sandwich right now. What about the Earl Sandwich? A million sandwiches. The Earl Sandwich invented a sandwich? Right. And then my last nitpick was not nearly enough cigarette smoking and it must be some sort of weird Redford thing. I think in the 1950s, everybody was smoking four packs a day, including all of the parents of my parents. I think there just should have been cigarette smoke everywhere and Redford must have just hated cigarette smoke is my guess.

1:25:02Bill Simmons:What do you have for nitpicks? Anything? No, I had the money. Okay. That's what I had written down. sequel prequel prestige tv all black cast are untouchable the prestige tv thing would be interesting if you brought in some of the other shows and the weird shit that was going on because there were other shows that were 1950s um corrupt television you yeah it was made i mean i guess mazel touched on some not the corruption but in that era of show business yes you could make a prestige series about this i don't know if i'd watch it but you could do it um is this movie be better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Mad Dog Russo, Doris Burke, Buffalo Bill, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Longlegs, or Wilford Brimley in the firm.

1:25:53Bill Simmons:I was thinking Teddy KGB is Herb Stemple.

1:26:00Bill Simmons:You want to do it? I'm just trying to set you up for a Teddy KGB. Just as Stemple, saying like pay me my money instead of pay that man his money. No, at the end, I guess he would say about Van Doren instead of saying they never leave you alone until they're leaving you alone. He would say pay that man his money. Sure. The man's got alligator blood. I can't do it. I have a terrible Russian accent. Just one Oscar who gets it. We agree it's a screenplay. Paul Atanasio. Yeah. Right? Absolutely. 100%. Over Redford? Yeah. Schofield's the number two for me. Unanswerable questions. what was Geritol? I already answered it.

1:26:39Bill Simmons:It apparently made your blood stronger or something or you feel fatigue and this will it's basically a caffeine pill. Mine is what would Charles Van Doren's life have been like if he never went and got on that game show? Mm. So you're going with a real life? Herbie's life is clear but if Charles Van Doren just doesn't like if Charles Van Doren says what you just said should say if he just says, I'm not answering that question because I know it already. You already gave me that question in the audition. If he says it, what happens to his life? Van Doren. Maybe he becomes a hero. Yeah, he becomes president of a university.

1:27:21Bill Simmons:He's Larry Summers. Right. Could 21, would you watch 21 right now if it came back in 2025? I think I would not. if Kimmel's hosting and it's like millionaire and it's Kimmel's a really good host for game shows yeah that's what I'm saying I mean a good host in general but he's a good game show host I mean if Kimmel's hosting I might give it a whirl okay and then we already answered what would you do if you were in this situation we think the answer is you flip it on them I like to think that I mean we've listen we've both been in situations where we've spoken out even at risk to ourselves we both have done it so You just did it to Soderbergh.

1:28:02Bill Simmons:You blew his cover. He got off with the movie. You said that and I did not say anything except that he made a great movie. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie? I'd take the painting of the dad. Same scene, different answer. I want the silverware box. You want all the silverware, okay. The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson. Speculation in our society has a way of becoming fact. Pretty true. My answer would be Not till you have a kid of your own Best double feature choice What do you got? Brasco Oh, I like that I was going to say the English patient You could just go You could fines it up Just double duty it Yeah, I think Brasco might be better though Because of the semantics Brasco's a better answer Thing, yeah Who won the movie?

1:28:55Bill Simmons:I'm going to say Redford Because I think this was the last really, really cool thing he directed. But kind of the end of this renaissance that we talked about in sneakers where he had it in the 70s, obviously. Then the 80s made that comeback and did the natural and out of Africa and was just omnipresent again. And then the 90s had this one last run as a movie star, as a director, with Sundance. And this is kind of the tale of it. Alright, time to bring in Craig. Can't wait. I have no idea. I feel like he liked it. He seems in a good mood. I did like it. I really hadn't heard of this movie and probably because it got shadowed by all the other great stuff that came out in 94.

1:29:38But I love all the movies about... There are certain movies where the industry looks inward on itself that I think should be required viewing for people who are studying media or film majors or whatever. My double feature would be Network or The Player, stuff like that. I love all that type of inward-looking stuff. what I really enjoyed about this movie was that like the themes got stronger throughout. In the beginning, it was a little bit more of just like, oh, there's a game show that's cheating. And then by the end, the themes are so much bigger than that. And I really liked the ending. I didn't know how it was going to end.

1:30:12I obviously, I knew it was a true story. But I didn't know what actually happened. I was really happy it wasn't just the montage of like the tropiness of the people all going to jail or everybody gets locked up. and I enjoyed that it was actually the Van Doren confession was commended by everybody and all of the themes just resonated much harder the way it ended because it kind of ends on this this icky feeling at the end and I didn't exactly know where it was going so I appreciated that and I mean yeah being tricked by mass media nepotism classism all this stuff is very resonant today so I loved it that was great

1:30:50Bill Simmons:it's a good point in 2025 this movie is still awesome to watch because of all the themes that are in the movie all of them are still relevant literally all of them i mean like the advent of television and and kind of the idea of what is reality i mean you could even make that parallel to like ai right now where it's like the advent of ai is also kind of now changing what reality is and everything is under the guise of entertainment um i yeah i the only thing i want to say at the end of this i agree with everything you're saying is that if you just paul atanasio is the last time i just want to say like i don't No, you know, I said I spoke to him today, but we're not like friends.

1:31:25But that guy, I mean, what co-creates House, right, with David Shore. So he invents that character, which makes total sense that he made these geniuses up and he made that genius up. Co-creates Homicide. Yeah. Writes Brasco. That guy is not nearly as famous as he should be. He is one of the titans of screenwriting. And in a way, a successor to Goldman in lots of ways. Like he's right up there with Scott Frank and Tony Gilroy, I think. like one of the true greats. And this movie and Brasco together are really a very rare accomplishment. Also, I think what's aged the worst is 60 million people watching a game show every week.

1:32:05That's half of the Super Bowl every week. That's unbelievable. Bill, did you say it was 25? Are you sure the highest it ever got in the ratings was like 20-something? They said 60 in the movie. 60 million? No, but I'm saying Bill was saying he thought...

1:32:19Bill Simmons:It was the 21st big... Yeah, there were 20 bigger shows at over 60 million. That's crazy, man. That's unbelievable. Unfathomable. There was nothing else to do. Like, it was radio or TV or you went to a movie. I mean, bowling had 40 million people watch bowling on Saturday afternoons or whatever. Pretty crazy. Well, that's it for Redford Month. I know there's one week left in the month, but we do a horror movie every year in the last week of October. I'm dreading that. Yeah, Craig doesn't like horror movies. I don't know. Me, I don't either. I'm trying to convince CR to do Halloween too. Okay, I can handle that.

1:32:58Bill Simmons:Now that we have the new studio and we have the giant Myers poster in the studio and Myers is right there, I feel like we have to pay homage. But I don't know. We're still hashing it out. Anyway, that's coming next week. Produced by Craig as always. Thanks to Ronick and thanks to Gahau as well. Thanks to Brian Koppelman. You're almost a member of the 10 Timers Club. well listen you're so close i can't thank you and i think this is nine i think this is the ninth time i know you got one more all right listen i gotta say i really i know you did this partially because you knew how much it meant to me and it really does that is this movie so much and i want people to do it and bill as always you're a great friend thanks everyone this is a great movie though i'm glad you forced us to do it uh next prediction before we go over under 52 and a half i you know called me and you said oh you said 52 and a half right i gotta go over i gotta go over um i love that you guys had cat at like 16 oh the ring ringer 100 yeah yeah i had certain as you know i had certain issues with the ringer 100 but uh yeah a couple things but but i love that you guys had both cat and jalen in really nice spots do you have a stealer's prediction for craig the four and two Steelers I know I I know I know I know where they are good luck Craig Craig I think it's a I'm a Jets fan it's horrible I'm a Jets fan you know how bad it is I said last week that you should bet the Ravens to win the NFC can you guys explain to me why I know this is off subject but I just want to understand it what is the logic that people rarely fire NFL coaches during this season I've never understood it can you explain I think it's I think it's too big of a it's too hard with how the schedule of the games is, right?

1:34:45It's just a terrible look. You're tanking the season. You're torpedoing the vibe in the locker room. It's just like you just blow everything up. But when you're 0-6, and there's just no sign of any possibility. Dan Campbell, when he came to the Lions, I think he started 0-8 or 1-10.

1:35:03Bill Simmons:Aaron Glenn has been bringing that up over and over again. He's like, hey, Dan Campbell. You think Aaron Glenn's going to be there at the start of the season next year? I mean, probably not. After that London game, I'm a little dubious after the clock management. It's hard with the culture guys. The culture guys take time, and you kind of have to build that up. So you really have to find a front office that will commit to you. Yeah. All right, Craig. Craig, I think the AFC North comes down to Baltimore and Pittsburgh in week 18. It's just preordained. There's no way. I don't know what their records have to be, but it's just going to come down to that game.

1:35:35Bill Simmons:It has to. It's going to be Sunday night. They're both going to be 9-8 or 9-7, and they will be playing each other. That's correct. All right. Frank Koppelman, thank you. Thanks, guys. Talk soon. We'll see you next week. Bye, everybody. Bye,

1:35:55everybody.

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