‘Shampoo’ With Bill Simmons, Cameron Crowe, and Sean Fennessey

24:23it's like it's set seven years in the past but it's essentially it's attempting to capture something that we understand Jerry Maguire is like very similar it's a present day movie something you were creating a world that had to be really close to our world for people to buy it and that feels really hard to do like Shampoo does it really well The Beverly Hills of 1968 which still kind of looks like The Beverly Hills of right now it feels like a real place shot on location like Jerry Maguire feels like it's happening in the world of sports and sports agencies Like, how do you do that? How do you make something feel real?

24:56I think, like, try and get the details right. Like, do your best to have the little things at the corners of the scenes be accurate. Well, you're like a 10 out of 10 maniac for that, though.

25:07Bill Simmons:I mean, you're like all time. You get every single detail possible. That's why it takes so long to, like, put the movies together. Because the research phase is so seductive. It's like, I can talk to one more person. I can talk about, like, you know. can you go crazy doing that though being like oh the cocktail napkins aren't right yeah in the hotel rooms of 1974 the cocktail napkins actually were red they actually made me feel that way when we were doing almost famous because there were these crowd shots san diego sports arena for stillwater and stuff and and the audience there was a bunch of the audience there and we're going to be on camera and a lot of them are doing this you know like the devil horns and that didn't exist in 1973 that was like van halen era so so i'm like Like, we got to shoot this again, guys.

25:53Let me talk to the crowd. Let me talk to the crowd. I'm going, hey, guys, it's Cameron. I'm a director. Just want to let you know, like, this didn't happen in 1973. Now, meanwhile, the guys are standing around, like, whoever's there visiting from the studio and the people making the movie, they're doing this look. Yeah. What a jerk. Talking about fingers on the extras. And then they say that thing to you. This is the thing that they say, which is so not true. If they're paying attention to that, you're lost. But they are paying attention to that. I'm paying attention to that.

26:26Bill Simmons:Yeah, they didn't know YouTube and the rewatchables and all of our podcasts were coming. Yeah, you lose me if you've got that going on. They had no idea I would watch Almost Famous 350 times, but I will and I would have noticed. Just wait till we get to one of my nitpicks and shampoo. It's going to blow your brain. I have one nitpick where I'm like, I can't believe they did this. One thing on Beatty and Cruise that I was thinking as you were talking about that, it seems like the biggest stars. And I think Beatty, in the mid-70s, he's in the conversation for biggest star. He's at least one of the people mentioned.

26:59For sure.

27:00Bill Simmons:But it seems like they had this force. All of them have a force of personality in different ways that the people talk about them, what it was like on the set or in the books that are written after. So Cruzes is always like, that dude's just fucking gung-ho. He's all in. He's ready to do anything it takes. And then you have some of the other people who are like, he's a method actor. Didn't really want to talk to anyone on the set. You know, like he would throw himself in the character and the implication is, oh, he seemed like kind of a dick. And then Beatty's like always involved in the movies he's making.

27:32Bill Simmons:So he's like a boss, but he's also an actor. I think that's like the hardest one to navigate. It's gotta be. You're ordering people around, but you're also in the movie, but you're not the director. But is he ordering them around like a Beatty character? Totally. I don't know. There's something. A lot of passive-aggressives. Off about this, the third act. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I got to reread Biscuit and just get more of a taste of that. It does seem like he seduces. Yes. With a lot of ease. That's what they say. You know, that he draws people in and says, do this. You know, Biscuit writes a lot about how he would draw people in for not as much money as maybe they were worth to do things.

28:07Right, right. You know, that he had an ability to convince people to do, to, you know, Julie Christie and Goldie Hawn and all these people who are, if not already, huge stars, you know, rising stars, making a movie for this low budget that is like going to be a huge smash and how much are they making on those movies? All that stuff is kind of interesting about his ability to do that. But also he kind of loves the seduction. Like he takes a long time to figure out what kind of movie he's going to make. And then Robert Towne says that once he starts, he's like a maniac. Once he's working on the movie, he's obsessed.

28:38But he'll take years just developing and chewing over the idea that he comes up with. Chewing, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they say that thing of like, when he looks at you, you're the only person in the world. Yeah. But you know, I'm just remembering this now. I had the good fortune to write this book on Billy Wilder and spend this time on Billy and Billy passed away. And one of the first people that said, let me be a part of this memorial, Warren Beatty. Wow. And he did show up and he was not George from Shampoo. He was like, what can we do for Billy? So maybe that's a little bit of the guy who decided on the movie.

29:13because he was straight ahead. I'll tell you another little story that I'm just remembering now, which is wild. When Almost Famous came out, we had a bad opening weekend. We actually got beaten by a reissue of The Exorcist. So a movie from 1973 slaughtered our movie about 1973, which was, you know, brutal. And so I was getting like 75 phone calls a day. and everything was really exciting. Then the opening weekend comes out, things start to taper down. Then the LA Times did a story about the budget of Almost Famous. And it was a nasty little story about he spent so much money and he did a lot of tapes.

29:57I hate when they do that. You were just talking about this. We were just complaining about this recently. These assholes. Check it out. No calls the day that article comes out. And we're all sitting around the office and we're like, oh shit, man. Nobody came to see the movie. The LA Times is like kicking shit on us. this is really a drag and the phone rings. It's like nine at night and we're still there in the office because we're too despondent to leave.

30:22Bill Simmons:Yeah. It's Annette Bening. And she says, hi, it's Annette Bening. Is Cameron there? It's like, yeah. We're just here weeping. And she goes, I want to put Warren on. Oh. And Warren Beatty comes on the phone. He goes, look, I don't really know you. He goes, but I just want you to know, He made a great movie, and there's no actor in town that wouldn't want to work with you. I just wanted to tell you that. And he hung up. Wow. I'm going to just start cold calling people. It's a move. On their worst day. Cold calling podcasts. People have failed. Hey, it's Bill. Keep plugging away. You're good. They'll always remember you.

31:02Bill Simmons:That must have carried you for like a month after that. It did. And you know what? When we won the Oscar for Best Screenplay, I went to the Vanity Fair party. And as I was getting there, Beatty and Annette were leaving. And I saw Annette. I was like, hey, it's Cameron. Thank you for that call. And she's like, Warren, Warren, get back here. And he came back and he shook my hand like, see what I said? Came true. And walked away. What a great story. Look at what you jarred here. How did you not lead with that? Yeah, that's amazing. It's so weird because it was lodged in there. but we're so focused on shampoo that I forgot my own kind of Beatty moment that happened, which was not like George.

31:48Bill Simmons:Well, and one of the few guys with the weight that, I mean, how many actors in the last 50 years, if you get that call, you've just, your entire year has changed. This person liked your movie. And I don't say this to diminish him at all, but I do wonder if he is as understood as one of the key participants, creators of this period of American movies because he didn't make as many movies. Yeah. And he hasn't made as many movies in the 21st century. And so obviously what we're doing here celebrates what he contributed. But he doesn't, you know, in Redford Past. He's like too short. I agree with you.

32:23There's just like, it's kind of important to locate his legacy because he did more on individual movies than most of his contemporaries as well, as a producer, as a writer, eventually as a director, and as like a conceiver of the projects. Yeah. You know, he didn't just wait for someone to call him to say, do you want to be in my movie? And he's distinct in that way, I think from almost every single one of his contemporaries, right? I mean, I don't know who else really transitioned as clearly. I mean, I guess you could say Woody Allen is in that conversation.

32:54Bill Simmons:It doesn't seem like anyone turned him down. If he wanted you for the movie, you just did the movie. Yeah, yeah. Biscayne had this interesting theory that I don't know if I agree with, but he thinks Beatty was George and Lester. And that was part of the reason he wanted to do the movie because he fancied himself as the sharp businessman with the great house. By the way, he bought this awesome house apparently as he was making this movie. And this wheeler dealer and, you know, but at the same time, he was also George the hairdresser just trying to get laid. Wow. I don't know if that's true, but it's an interesting theory.

33:27I kind of buy that. He certainly makes a mini hero out of Lester. Yeah, Lester comes out. You don't hate him at the end.

33:35Bill Simmons:No. Well, it's also Jack Warden. It is Jack Warden, yeah. Born free. He also has this quote in the movie. That's really funny. As long as I can remember when I see a pretty girl and I go after her and I make her, it's like I'm going to live forever. And that's where you're like, I don't know who's saying that. Are you the character or are you Mara Beatty? Could be either. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we got to talk about some of the other components of this movie.

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35:00Bill Simmons:Julie Christie. They dated for a long time. They made three movies together, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, which Sean owns in five different forms of physical media. I do, yeah. Did they have that in 8K UHD yet or no? Just in 4K. Just in 4K. Shampoo, heaven can wait. They broke up in 1974. Famous relationship. There's all kinds of good stories. Supposedly they were on the outs because she made that Donald Sutherland movie where they may or may not have actually gotten it on in the scene. Don't look now, yes. Baby lost his mind. Who knows what's true and not true 50 years later. But they had a very long storied relationship.

35:34Bill Simmons:And then she came back and worked with him again. There's nobody like her now? Who's her now? Nobody. Not really. She's such a perfect counterpoint to his energy too. Yeah. She's so frank, direct, strong. She does have a little brittle vulnerability. But she is just the absolute awesome counterweight to him being like, oh well you know and just kind of looking off into the distance they're great together Craig had some thoughts just a just a magnificent woman Julie Christie just an unbelievable cocktail of intellect and sex appeal my god yeah and confidence and just and the accent it's like what was she missing that first scene when she comes in and she's wearing like the long pants she's just so there's elegant confident just just a star of her time in shampoo, dress-wise, hair-wise.

36:27Amazing in Darling, right? Darling is quite the character piece. Yeah, she's wonderful. They're wonderful together. Kind of heartbreaking in the best way.

36:39Bill Simmons:Another one that turned down some, she turned down Red's, turned down The Verdict. Wow. Which would have been a crazy part. The Charlotte Rampling part? Yeah. Charlotte's good. It worked out. Yeah, it worked out. And then you have Goldie Hawn, who's not quite Goldie Hawn yet, but she's almost Goldie Hawn. She's in Sugar Land Express, Shampoo, but it was like... I don't feel until Foul Play, I don't feel like she could have opened a major movie by... She had done like... Cactus Flower and all. She had done all those movies in the late 60s or 70s. carry her own. Yeah, but we didn't know if she could carry an NBA team to the third round of the playoffs yet.

37:15Bill Simmons:Yeah. You're saying that's what she does here? No, Foul Play. Oh, okay. Foul Play. Foul Play, it's like, yeah, I'm here, guys. she's another one that I don't there's not a lot of parallels to her either yeah do you think there was a big casting call thing for that part of Jill or did he always know it was Goldie it seems from the research he knew he wanted to make a movie of those two I don't know what his history was with Goldie I'm assuming they probably dated for a split second at some point yeah it sounds like he sought her out interesting yeah smart smart really good with casting and Jill and Jackie being friends is really interesting because Goldie and Julie Christie's dynamics are so different.

37:53Yeah. But you buy it. You could see that they're running in the same kind of circles, right? There's like, strikingly beautiful women do travel in packs. So, you know, you buy it.

38:05Bill Simmons:Julie Christie had this quote that she felt bad that Goldie Hawn's part wasn't better and that she wondered if they should have switched parts. I don't think that would have worked at all. That was going to be literally my hot take. Oh, you want to do that now? Is there a world where they switch parts in the movies better? It's the hot take. So we can explore it. Yeah, it is interesting. It's different. It's a side of Goldie Hawn we probably never saw in a movie. Because I think that there's a way darker... Jackie's a way darker character. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think you get Julie Christie's rage at the end.

38:44you get Julie Christie doing the third act in the Goldie Hawn part that works she couldn't do that yeah yeah yeah Goldie being a little bit harder edged a little bit more cynical would have been an interesting note for her to play

38:56Bill Simmons:my only question is the persona Julie always had I think she's just on to this guy immediately who he actually is whereas Goldie you could see her being like fooled right for half the movie because she's like so innocent and pretty and happy and I have she's part of my hot take too later to hear town talk about it he i think he feels that like uh jill is the only one that has a future so does george does george actually get the money from lester to do the salon or is george just this is my number one unanswerable question is that just is he just emotionally and spiritually dead and has given up and he too is a sellout well so here's in the i was going to do this later in the research but apparently there was an epilogue ending oh wow Town had his version.

39:42Bill Simmons:Beatty had his version. Because they had these two... They're developing this for seven years. They each had their own script. It was one of those things. And then they finally kind of merged the scripts. But they always want to have an epilogue set in 1975. And the point of the epilogue, I have it somewhere, was that everybody's life is still a mess. And they couldn't figure out how to land the plane on it. So funny. You don't need it. And they just decided to dump it and end it with him on the little mini cliff, which is a way better ending. Yeah. But it works out perfectly because isn't it like 10 days after the film comes out that Nixon resigns?

40:25So like they got their, the exact epilogue they needed in real life, in real time.

40:30Bill Simmons:Ashby said, the upper class is full of shit, man. You know, they don't give a fuck about anybody. They were all whores. Everybody was selling out all through that picture. that was his take on shampoo so I think they're making this in 74 that's the height of everybody's just fed up Watergate has already happened people are just pissed all the assassinations that happened in the 60s Watergate now people are like alright fuck this I do want to shout out Amy Scott's documentary Howl about Howl Ashby which is an amazing portrait of him and that quote specifically and him saying those words is in the movie about shampoo there's only a limited amount of time devoted to shampoo in the movie in part because he it's not a paycheck job for Hal Ashby but it's like a for hire thing which most of his other films are not really like that and his role on it is so interesting because all the other actors describe him as being extremely calm while Robert Towne and Beatty are fighting throughout the production of the movie but then like you said before he's like it's all going to be in the edit like we're good like basically everybody who's on set here is a genius and we're going to figure this out like I'm really not worried and that turned out to be true like there's not a bad performance in this movie that documentary is great and then convinced us to give Amy a Counting Crows doc for the music box series that we do that's going to be on an HBO later this month.

41:45Bill Simmons:Okay. Yeah. Well done. Well done. Jack Warden, quickly. Oh, my God. Just a powerhouse. From 75 to 82, shampoo, all the president's men, heaven can wait, the champ, and justice for all being there, used cars, and the verdict. Just ripping them off. Pretty good. Peters. Peters across the board. Across the board. Did Lester have to be a little bit more evil, or was this the right casting? I think it's right. I think it's so right. When he doesn't beat up Beatty and when he has that scene at the end, it's just... Like he's listening to him. It's like, you know, man, this guy. Yeah, yeah. It's like the Robert Loggia part.

42:21Bill Simmons:There's like the Jack Ward and Robert Loggia, this type of part, the older guy. You can still see them maybe getting a little horny. You can see them running a company. There's a dark side of them, but not really. I don't know who that... Who's that actor now? Oh, gosh. I don't think that actor exists now. Oh, man. Like Jack Warden? Like the Jack Warden and Robert Loggia part. The Loggia. The guy who would have been in Big. The guy who would have been Lester in this movie. It's a hard one. I don't know. Oh, man. Maybe it just has gone away. John Goodman? You know, someone like that. It's someone you don't see very often.

42:56Bill Simmons:Oh, John Goodman. Coming in on flight. Banana boat coming. Jack Warden is one of those people who he just improves everything he's in. Every time he's in a movie. Yeah. Even if the movie's not totally working, you are having fun watching him cook. And I think we talked about that in The Verdict, where he brings a completely different energy to Newman. And he comes into every movie and he's like, what is this bullshit? That's kind of the attitude of every character that he plays. And he's perfect because he's not a mustache-twirling villain. He's a selfish rich guy, but he's not like, I'm going to destroy these kids.

43:28He's like, I'm losing my youth, and I kind of got to get my youth back. How am I going to do it? It's so great when Beatty is like, maybe there's something we can do with your hair. I don't know. Layer it. Puff it out a little bit, Lester. It's just like amazing. It's amazing. Man, I just want to come up with who's the modern-day Loja Warden. We'll figure it out like four days from now. Yeah, exactly.

43:51Bill Simmons:What's your favorite Warden performance, just out of curiosity? By far this. Because I can't get him coming up the walkway doing Born Free out of my mind. Like since I saw it. Since I was 18. I can't even, I just want to sing it like that all the time. Bowen for you. And then you mentioned the Hal Ashby movies that led to this. But then afterwards, he also had Coming Home and being there in back-to-back years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coming Home is a fascinating movie. It's a Tubi classic. It's been on Tubi for like three years straight. Yeah, I love that movie. Did very well at the Oscars. It did. Very, very important movie for a lot of people.

44:29Bill Simmons:but there's a feel to it that out of all the Vietnam movies, it's the most kind of interesting constructed Vietnam movie. It is interesting. It's, it's, it's different. I look at these, I look at the Harold and Maude, Lasty Tail, Shampoo, Runt, like as its own little pod. Right. I can't even tell you why. Cause I know he can, Ashby continues, but those three movies feel like of a piece. And I think my hot take ish thing is that. of those three movies, shampoo probably has the most bumps in it that make it a little dated, like the gay stuff. Yeah. There's little things where you go, oh, and over time, I think less so Harold and Maude and Lasty Tale.

45:16Yeah. So though the layered and the texture and the depth that allows us to talk like this about shampoo makes it completely memorable and important, And there's something about the flow of the other two that's a different kind of elixir that might make them more seamless, you know? That's just my thought. I don't know how recently you guys have seen the other two movies. Last Detail is my favorite of the three. It's spectacular. Incredible movie. It's an interesting movie too because I think without that movie, this movie doesn't happen, or at least not in this way because, you know, Beatty and Nicholson are close friends and Ashby kind of enters Nicholson's orbit after Last Detail.

45:55And so he starts coming up to the house on Mulholland Drive and then on a Lakers game. And he takes his girlfriend. That happens. It happened. 70s. Really something. But he finds somebody who, like he knows Hal Ashby can hang in this environment with big personalities, with complicated subject matter. You know, like Last Detail also famously like one of the, kind of like the roughest language movies of the time. And then Shampoo pushes it even further. Definitely. Some stuff that I'm sure we'll get into about what Julie Christie says in this movie. Yeah. Which in the movies you didn't hear very often.

46:29Bill Simmons:And Jack. By all accounts, Hal was smoking pot morning, afternoon, and night. Yes. This is what they say. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the word in the street. Whatever gets you through the night. Robert Town. Chinatown shampoo, last detail, all in a three-year run. Did you go through the uncredited thing in the 70s? I mean, the uncredited, it's basically him and Goldman were attached to 78 % of all movies made that succeeded. The uncredited list is super wild for him. You don't even know what's true and not true at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just seems like everybody brought him on and just wrote him a check and he just made money.

47:06Then he has like this weird 80s that include Personal Best, which is a fascinating movie.

47:12Bill Simmons:Yeah. which he wrote and directed. Keela Sunrise where he earnestly tried to get Pat Riley to play the Kurt Russell part which is like one of my favorite weird movie things. Like genuinely tried to wrote the part for Pat Riley tried to convince him to do it. Did you ever talk to Riley about that? I don't know if anyone's Riley's never come on my podcast because he can go fuck themselves. No, I've never had a mind. I don't like the heat. Let's bring him out. Pat Riley. Keela Sunrise and then Days of Thunder he wrote and then he goes into the 90s where he's just writing like The Firm, Mission Impossible.

47:46Bill Simmons:Yeah. But he did Without Limits which I think is one of the best sports movies of the last 30 years. But he had this three decade run and each decade was a little different. I think like Beatty he was kind of in so many different places and like, you know, knowing everybody. I mean, he was mixing what was the movie after Tequila Sunrise that he did? I can get it but it was, I mean, Days of Thunder was within two years of that. Maybe it was, I think it was after Tequila Sunrise. He was mixing in the next studio and I think we were doing Elizabethtown. Oh. And he was completely great. Wanted to see a reel of our movie and then showed me a reel of what he was working on.

48:27It was, I think he had one note that was kind of great. But it was that feeling, that Beatty-like thing that we're talking about of like, I'm an amoeba that's, I'm kind of present in a lot of stuff all over town. And I have an effect on the movies that are being made. And I dig it. The Two Jakes? Is that what it was? The Two Jakes. So he's, and he's also kind of avuncular in his own way. I just thought he was very welcoming to a younger guy making this movie. So you're probably making singles at that point. This was after Singles. Yeah? This was Elizabeth Town. When was The Two Jakes? That was 90.

49:03Oh, so maybe this is, it was one of the ones after. I just, I remember it's something that he had been tinkering on a lot. So he didn't have quite a lock on what he was doing, but was very charming about talking about it. Maybe he was doing Ask the Dust when you were doing Elizabeth Town? No, I'll figure this out along with the new Loggia. New Loggia. New Loggia is a good category. Are you one of those people

49:26Bill Simmons:that can work on four movies at once? I'm going to say no. I can. I can not finish four movies at once. No problem. You're an all-in on a project guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually, for sure. I think Town just had that. My perception of it was that he had that shaman quality where people would call him and be like, can you help me fix this? Yeah, yeah, totally. And they have an answer. Well, he had like a very intense relationship with Warren Beatty. And they took this forever. At some point, yeah, it was like you and CR. At some point, he started to have the same kind of hair that Warren had, all this shit.

50:03Bill Simmons:He was looking like he was almost doing an impression. You don't want to compete with that. That's tough. Same type of like trying to get the ladies. But then I guess his big contribution to the scene, they had this huge, or to the movie, other than all the other stuff he did, but they had this huge argument about the key scene when he confesses to Goldie Hawn's character that he was actually having sex with everybody. And the big argument was whether he should be standing or sitting. And Tan was like, you have to be sitting. You're bigger than her. It's threatening. She has to be in control. You have to be sitting down because she needs to be in control of the scene.

50:37Bill Simmons:and Beatty didn't want to do that and they fought about it, fought about it. Really? And then got him to sit down and that's why the scene works. Because she's like this. It's a great choice. And it's better. It wouldn't have worked if he's standing and towering over. I thought that was interesting. I think he's right. I mean, don't you think? Like, if you imagine that scene with him standing, it is way different. Yeah. And then there was a whole thing, like, Beatty has a, it's a co-screenwriting thing. And it's a big, there's a lot of stuff written about this, about Town was pissed about it, but he wouldn't say anything.

51:09Bill Simmons:And then David Geffen was finally like, Town's pissed about this. And then Beatty got mad at Town. Town's like, I'm not pissed. And all the Hollywood shit that we like in these books. A lot of lore. Yeah, a lot of lore. Much lore. Three Oscar nominations in a row for Robert Towne, by the way. Year after year, banging them out. $4 million budget, made$60 million. Third biggest movie in 1975. Damn. Lee Grant, who we didn't mention, got nominated for an Oscar. Wow. I would say rightly so. Ebert. She won, didn't she? Did she win? She won, yeah. She won the Oscar. I probably should have had that in my notes.

51:43Bill Simmons:That seems more important than getting nominated. Her speech is really interesting because she, you know, was like… Sean has the speech. Come on. Well, I watched the speech last night. She said something interesting about Ashby, which was just that all the actors… She thanked Towne and Baby and was like, they are the shepherds and architects of this movie. She was like, Ashby was the one who basically let us feel like we could fail. Like we could take chances, like we could do things, and it was going to be okay. And she's the last person that he thanks, which I thought was interesting because of this, you know, Bermuda Triangle of creativity that this movie is operating inside of.

52:21The screenplay got nominated.

52:25Bill Simmons:We also had Jack Warden getting nominated. The movie did not get nominated. Do you know why? Tell me. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Barry Lyndon, Dog Day Afternoon, Jaws in Nashville. Holy shit. Good luck. Good luck cracking that crew. Number six, baby. We do this on every episode. We used to know how to make movies. I was just going to say, is that the best picture lineup of all time? Because there's other movies. We haven't asked that question before. Up there. Well, especially when you think of the directors that are involved. I mean, holy mackerel. It's pretty great. It's got to be in the top three best five because there's no weak link at all.

53:06It's the one I always circle back to. Are they spurring each other on is my question. Are these filmmakers just tweaking each other to go further? What do you think? I think yes. I think yes. I think it equates to music too and eras of music where there's people that remind you of a certain kind of greatness that makes you summon your own greatness. It's super powerful and fun. It's fun when you have something to compete against, obviously. And I think there was, I don't know, Billy Wilder talked about a greater camaraderie in that time and that he felt that it kind of splintered away in the time before he died.

53:42That there was less like elbow jabbing with a smile and a smirk, you know, that made it more fun to like go up against your peers.

53:52Bill Simmons:It's hard to explain the movies and music scene in that decade where it's a combination of things evolving. People just, just some of the best people we've ever had just all in one place together. And then like the kind of new shit being created that nobody had heard before. I just don't know if we'll ever see that again. And in that time, like not all of them knew how to use music or knew modern music. And not all of them knew the new like popular music or how to use it. Nichols did, obviously.

54:29and Ashby to the max. But a lot of them just wanted to lean on score and all that stuff and like grandiose kind of music. So it really stuck out when somebody was able to like land a needle drop where you just went, fuck, that's the marriage where everybody is just high watching it.

54:46Bill Simmons:We always talk about with writers, if you cover the byline and you know who the writer is, that usually means they're a good writer. Like, oh, I know who that is. and there are so many directors in that decade where you could have been like, oh, that feels like a blank movie. And I wonder if we still have that in the same way with as many directors now. I mean, we make more movies now. Yeah. It's really hard to compare to this year, this time. This six or seven year period of films in America alone is just to completely shape my taste and what I'm interested in and what I like from movies. But movies are back.

55:21Bill Simmons:I don't know if you noticed. I think so. It's a good movie year this year. a lot of stuff I've liked I hope movies are going to be okay Sean's nipples have been hard for all of 2025 he's been delighted our guy Roger Ebert disappointing one for him we do in rewatchables we always do the Roger Ebert review two and a half stars shocking ooh tell me about that Shampoo is a movie I expected to admire enormously it was made by some of Hollywood's most gifted talents and the critical praise from New York has been almost deafening but the movie didn't quite work for me its timing wasn't confident enough to pull off its ambitious conception.

55:56Bill Simmons:And he was basically like, this movie's trying to do a whole bunch of stuff it didn't totally pull off. But sometimes, I do think it's a movie you need to watch a couple times. For sure. There's a lot going on. For sure. It's not one of those. You're going to solve it right away. I did think he had a really good insight in his review, though. He wrote, The sexual gymnastics aren't the movie's point, however, and the sex scenes are never developed in an erotic manner. They're directed by Ashby Moore as symptoms of George's dilemma, which is that he likes being loving and kind. He listens to his clients and sometimes even really does care about their problems.

56:27But in some final way, he's too blocked to develop a relationship to really give himself. Which I think is a really smart reading of that character and maybe even a baby more broadly. It's weird that he doesn't like the movie. It's so in his wheelhouse. I bet he upgraded it when he did his thousands.

56:44Bill Simmons:He upgrades. We're going to do most rewatchable scene. But before we do that, we have to talk about what you brought us for the set. Well, you know, I wanted to bring a little something for this hallowed room. And I just figured we'd go with one of the hidden heroes of Jerry Maguire, Kush. Jerry O 'Connell as Kush. And there are three of these, I must say. One is in the hands of Jerry O 'Connell. And one I have. And now one belongs to Dish. I mean, what an honor. One of the great honors in Rewatchable's history. Kush's big promo posters. Was this before Kush Lash? Kush Lash, Kush Lash, Kush Lash?

57:20Bill Simmons:Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I must say, Jerry O 'Connell. By the way, he looks great in that. He looks like the Jets are going to draft him first. God willing, if only we could have drafted Kush. He sees the future in his eyes. You can see that right there. It's all ahead of him and he knows it. He's going through his progressions. It's like paisley backing I thought you might enjoy. Hint of the undershirt. Just nice texture. Talking about details. This was in his hotel room? Where was this in the actual movie? I think this is possibly... I'm going to say it's in the hotel room with his dad when Jerry goes and they have all that paraphernalia in the room.

57:58It is, in the Bow Bridges hotel room.

57:59Bill Simmons:You did surprise me with this, so I'm going blind. It's so crazy, though, what a perfect match it is with the rest of the decor. It does feel as though you found it on eBay and it is a real quarterback that you watched in 1979. I'm going to find the perfect spot for it. Right now, we want to display it there. I don't want to... Michael Myers was there. I don't want to no I can't long term I don't want to piss off Myers yeah I got you you know because he's a serial killer I do yeah it'll find a place no it's going to find a place it'll be it will gravitate to that special place honestly the 77 Red Sox might be in trouble over in the corner interesting but we'll figure out the perfect one so thank you for that I always love when people bring guests my pleasure most rewatchable scene I'm going to give you a couple choices George goes to visit Jill after he had sex with Felicia and she realizes this is the Goldie Hawn character realizes that they're not going to have sex and it's just kind of a funny I'm going to go make some food and she's like wait what happened?

58:58Bill Simmons:I thought and then so the light bulb's going on like I wonder if he just had sex but I just like how they handle that. It's great. George, it's short but George flipping out after he can't get alone when he dumps garbage anywhere it's just a great Warren Beatty being a star scene. I like when he throws a jacket in and he's like oh wait I need that jacket.

59:18Bill Simmons:That chaotic care salon scene when everybody's coming in and out. It's like a Three's Company episode. Beatty and Christy in the parking lot. Hey, I don't fuck anyone for money. I do it for fun. It's like, oh. Brutal. Brutal. George doing Jackie's hair in the bathroom, which you mentioned. Big scene. The Carrie Fisher scene. Big scene. The party with the two Felicia-Jackie interactions, but specifically the stare down the second time. They're just fucking locked like UFC fighters for, it's like 90 seconds. Yeah. The gaze never changes. Jack Warden moving through the groovy party like an alien we talked about that George confessing his love with Lucy in the sky with diamonds playing kicks in and then they get found but I'm going to give this the kid Cuddy Pursuit of Happiness award for best needle drop it's going down low and then it kicks up which I know you're one of the masters of I'm with you thank you George admitting to Joe that he slept with a lot of girls let's face it I fucked them all and then George George makes peace with Lester.

1:00:25Bill Simmons:Also a good scene. And Jackie dumps George on the mini cliff. Unless there are any other scenes you want to mention. I think those are the nominees. I just want to, just the first, first, first scene of introducing the movie. In the dark. Wouldn't it be nice in the darkness. During the sex scene. Which is like such a disorienting way to open a movie. You can't really figure out what's going on. You know that they're having sex. You can't really see Lee Grant at all even when he gets up. Especially when I'm 13. I'm like, is there a boob? Yeah, exactly. It's nothing. Yes, my first viewing. I was totally there.

1:00:55Yeah. It just, it reels you in. But like that like leaning forward thing that you're doing when you're watching the movie is a great way to get you interested in what's going on with this guy. That scene gets done a million times later and you find out that they're actually just like, you know, moving a piece of furniture or something. And you're like, oh, they weren't really having sex. That movie's like, they're having sex. It's actually happening.

1:01:16Bill Simmons:So what's your most rewatchable scene? Man, as you watch it, I just, as you go through it, I just kind of start thinking, what about my choice but my my choice really is the stare down bistro scene because i just think i was tempted to go with the the lucy in the sky with diamonds like that whole party i love love love and that really destroyed me when i was a little guy first seeing it but the orchestration of all the relationships in the bistro scene nixon getting reelected the big wall size picture of Nixon um you know Jackie getting drunk and Beatty with with my favorite reading in the movie where he's like you know she's going on and on and he's like you're drunk it's just fantastic in any other movie it's like you're drunk don't you realize what you're doing he's like you're drunk right it's uh it's just brilliant and I and I think without that scene where you're drawn into the interlocking relationships and you're feeling Jack Warden's pain and all that stuff the movie isn't as seductively layered without it.

1:02:18So kind of structurally, I go with that. What do you got, Sean? I love the scene near the very end when Lester and George are...

1:02:27Bill Simmons:That was my scene. That was my pick. I just think the whole movie... Women only talk about one thing, how some guy fucked them over. It's like, that's fucking great stuff. Yeah, their instant camaraderie and just being assholes is very amusing. And the whole idea of the movie is in there too, which is sort of like, of course this rich guy is like, yeah, they're all bad. I don't care. I'm just trying to get through my day. You know, like to pack all that into that little moment and, you know, to just show that like through these guys' eyes, the women are secondary. You know what I mean? They're props.

1:02:56They're like a means to an end of trying to get off. Because they're a whore. He calls Julie Criss character. It kind of really reveals, I think, what they really think about these guys. But also, you know, it's true and it feels sincere, but also they're critical. It's a really fascinating blend. It's fascinating. And also, Lester, not once but twice has a problem with the housekeeping. It's just like how do you live like this? It's about the glasses and stuff. It's not a dirty clean glass in the house. Yeah, I don't have to clean this fucking glass and like pour you a drink that only I am gonna drink.

1:03:24It's just crazy.

1:03:25Bill Simmons:I think Warden's so good in that scene. He comes in a little menacing. So good. And then whatever George says about like your wife all she wants to do is shop all day her daughter hates her and he's like daughter hates her. What do you mean hates her? He's just his whole body like jolts. I know it's a great scene there's a great back and forth in that scene where Jack calls or Jack Warden calls Jackie a whore and then Beatty goes no I think she really likes you and he goes really? yeah really? really? yeah she likes you that helps when she goes off with Lester I mean that's such a well written scene too I know and then he's like the perfect actors he's been there all night that's like the awesome thing at the top like I've been here all night doing what?

1:04:07you certainly didn't do the housework this is like you sat there steaming about the glasses being dirty. They're just brilliant together.

1:04:14Bill Simmons:All right, next category. What's the most 1975 thing about this movie? A little tough because it's set in 1968. Interesting. I'll give you a couple nominees, though. Warren Beatty's hair. Using the word groovy. Yep. Every time you hear groovy, it's like that's a word that is gone. Jack, I mean, there's some unfortunate gay bashing in this movie, but he uses the word fairy, which I haven't heard in 25 years I know I have LA just seems so sprawling and traffic free and happy to navigate and it's just not like it is now even when they show the shots of the hill on sunset like the houses aren't crammed together it just seems like this happy mid 70s place the seven years after Nixon got elected subtext is good but I am going to go with my winner is riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

1:05:12Bill Simmons:Oh. Just fucking hopping on the Triumph and moving around. It's just noticeable when you watch it. And he has only one close call. It's like, it's just not a real action scene. Just a happier time. I'll be coming back to the Triumph in a later category. What do you have for this? Anything else? I mean, even just purely the style of every character, you know, the haircuts that he's giving to match Felicia and Jackie is like such a chill. It is like more 68 than 75. Maybe that should have been the category. What's the most 1968 thing about this movie? The music and... Yeah. What do you have, Cameron?

1:05:47I would go for the extras and the people populating the party, the big sprawling party. Those people do not exist anymore. They don't exist anymore, but also, like, why are they there? Yeah. Whose house is that? Which goes to another category, unanswered questions. Like, whose house is that? Is it Lester's house? It looks like Lester's house. Also, it's election night,

1:06:08Bill Simmons:So is every election night a Tuesday? Are people partying on election night? I guess in 1968, maybe they were. But these are supposed to be the counterculture crowd. Like, how do they end up in this house? Yeah. It's not like it's a shack in Laurel Canyon. This is like... An estate. I don't know who they are, but they aren't really convincing, particularly the guy that offers Jack Warden the joint. He just kind of like... It's just hair, really. He doesn't really have anything to do. And there's a lot of like scarf, scarfed-headed women and stuff. And you just like, it's a little caught in a time warp.

1:06:44You know who dipped into this?

1:06:45Bill Simmons:Mad Men. When they would have Don Draper go to LA for those seasons and it was like same kind of thing. Like, what is this world? Who are these people? How did they get in this house? Can I say one thing about that? For so many movies that like try and do the era and like work real hard to get the extras all dressed up properly and stuff, all they have to do is watch the movie Monterey Pop. Monterey Pop has the best photography of the people in the audience. And it's just, that's what you should go to, to do your research on that. Because like people in that era, and I guess that's 68. I think it is 68.

1:07:20Okay, so Monterey Pop is 68. So that's the era. There's people in the 50s. There's people who look like they could be there now. It's just like the stew of what people in that era really looked like is there in the crowd shots of Monterey Pop. And sadly, that's not shampoo, which is good on so many other details. They just kind of fumble on that. And it is 1975, 68, or whatever we're looking for. It's a good plan. I was trying to think of other 68 movies that would be representative of this too. And I feel like, isn't Medium Cool also 68? Medium Cool. The Haskell-esque movie, which is also like, it's a lot of real people in that movie, even though it's not a documentary.

1:08:00and it's the same thing like you can see exactly how everyone was styled this movie is like some of it is accurate and some of it appears to be like satirizing or riffing loosely on what it remembers seven years ago to be the Beverly Hills stuff is pretty accurate it feels pretty accurate of course they're all in tuxes

1:08:18Bill Simmons:Craig would you rather go to a party in 1968 or now 1968 I mean it just seemed like a great time I'll just do it now the flex category you guys touched on this mine is the Den of Thieves Benny Hanna award for a scene-stealing location, it's just unrecognizable LA of 1968 versus now. It's just completely different. It feels so small, relaxed, approachable. The height of every building seems lower. Yeah, the winding roads of the Hollywood Hills, every single part of it is so appealing and attractive, and you completely understand why you would fall in love. I fall in love with it again just watching it, convincing myself that right now is somewhat still what it was in 68, which it's clearly not, but it's magical.

1:08:58There is a way though in which it is, it has aged the best in terms of LA too because this is sort of what it's like to live in LA where like everybody lives in their house and they don't really leave their house and the houses are kind of dark and the curtains are closed and they're skulking around. And even though this, you think of this as like this sunny paradise, that a lot of people, especially people with a lot of privilege, are just like, I don't really want to leave. Like, I'm just like, I'm doing my thing in my own house. Like, I don't want to go out tonight, you know? Like, there is still that quality of every time they're in one of these houses, they're not bustling.

1:09:31The only time we see that is at these two parties. It's also funny to have a bunch of counterculture people at this mansion, which is also very L.A. That's what I was saying. They're committing to that, but they also have one rich friend that they're okay using their dad's house.

1:09:41Bill Simmons:Yeah. They're okay with that. The LA in this movie is the LA that as a kid, when I watched all the TV shows, and I was like, man, it just seems great there. When they did like Battle of the Network Stars in Malibu, I'd be like, what's that? That's on a cliff with an ocean? Like, what the hell is going on? Or Charlie's Angels, they'd be in the Hollywood Hills. I'd be like, oh, that looks awesome. The only thing though is like, it is smoggy, cloudy LA. It's not always sunny. True. You know, like especially the last shot when he's looking out. It's like, that's not the beach, you know? That's not rosy.

1:10:14That's doom. Even both of the offices, the views from the offices, the movie producer's office, Lester's office are gorgeous. The views, the balcony, is it Jill's house? I mean, Mark, unbelievable.

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1:11:29Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by the Active Cash credit card from Wells Fargo. That's a mouthful, but that's because it packs a lot in. Earn unlimited 2 % cash rewards On purchases with it, big or small So whether it's buying tickets to the game And grabbing a coffee, it earns unlimited 2 % cash rewards on purchases Say it with me, the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo Be a 2 %-er Learn more at wellsfargo.com Forward slash active cash Terms apply Alright, before we do What's Sage the Best Special category, the Steven Seagal Shitting on himself award For most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot we're here with legendary filmmaker Cameron Crowe and you're doing this award this is like why am I here Lee Grant walked off the film for two days during the scene when her character comes in after it seems like her daughter might have had sex with and they argued about what her motivations would be and she kept playing it the same way and he kept telling her to play it differently and she got fed up and she left and was gone for two days and she came back and Warren said, basically, my bad.

1:12:39Bill Simmons:He's like, what do I know? I'm only a guy. And that was it. Wow. What would be your, do you have a Steven Seagal shitting on himself for work for many of your movies? Just out of curiosity. Do you know this story? Tell me the story. It's some Seagal movie. What was it, like Above the Law, one of those? Hard to Kill, maybe? There was some stunt guy in the set and the guy said he could choke anyone out. and Seagal's like, there's no way you could choke me out. And the guy's like, oh yeah? And he's like, all right. And it became this thing and the guy chokes Seagal out and he shits all over himself.

1:13:13Bill Simmons:This is urban legend. Might not have happened. May have happened. But it had to become a category in the rewatchables. I love it. He got choked out and may have shit on himself. Steven Seagal. So anyway, I don't know if you have anything that good. Let me think about that. Think about that. Think about that. It's a high bar. Think about 2025 Loggia. I'll, I'll, yeah. and just file that away for the end so many unanswered questions we'll get back to that Sean what do you have for what stage is the best I love a Hollywood LA movie that is full of all these smart self-referential choices like we did the player on this show we've done a handful of movies and so casting Carrie Fisher who's Debbie Reynolds' daughter and the way that the movie uses her and uses her as this kind of vessel for a new generation of sexual frankness and Debbie Reynolds of course this representation of kind of like a pert and prim version of Hollywood history is super smart.

1:14:04There's like a series of versions like this, like even just the idea of making a movie about a hairdresser and what the role of the hairdresser as a significant participant in not just making Hollywood movies, but Jay Sebring, who was tragically killed. John Peters, you know, who became, you know, a power player in the space. Seems like those were the two people

1:14:25Bill Simmons:that kind of drove this. And then there was a third one whose name escapes me, but that I think Robert Towne talked about, about somebody that he had met whose ex had cut hair and was also an inspiration for this. And that these, I don't think we see hairdressers in quite the same way culturally now. Yeah. But it's fascinating because that is a really intimate act. You know, to be with someone by yourself, touching them, cutting their hair, developing that physical relationship with them, and then the movie using that and that being such a significant part of presentation in Hollywood and the way that you look is so paramount to what you're doing.

1:14:59I just love all that.

1:15:00Bill Simmons:Well, Peters was, I mean, he had some big celebrity girlfriends and then eventually just became a producer. But it was all because he was around these women all day who were attached to powerful people. I was kind of surprised in the movie when, I mean, because George seems to understand people's intimate feelings and stuff and how when he's got his hands in their hair, they start talking about it. And it feels like he listens, you know, and he knows the power of that. But then he kind of sells himself out at the end saying like, yeah, they all fucking talk about the same things. I'm going to fuck them over.

1:15:30and I'm like, George, come on. You felt more than that. Do you think he's performing for Lester too though? The way that he like shapeshifts for people too? Good point. And that's a very, you know, LA sycophantic thing where you like blend into the moment so that you're not making too many waves. Like you gotta be like Lester in this moment but when you're cutting a woman's hair you gotta be sympathetic to her experience. Like that reveals a little bit of like the phoniness that is at the heart of the movie too. It's really, like to me it feels very much like LA where like I am sincere every day and I also feel full of shit.

1:16:01And that's a really hard way to be. But I do think the movie really taps into that well. I totally agree. Plus, remember he puts that scene in where he's like, got this woman's hair, like, right. Oh, yeah. It almost looks like a blowjob. He's just like shaking her around and then like whipping her back up. And then he wants to like, give her away. And the next scene, like, you know. That would have been a good hottest take

1:16:22Bill Simmons:as hairdressers were the original podcasters. Just doing a podcast all day with 10 guests. That is a hot take. And getting people to reveal their secrets. Yeah. Wow. Because they have to remember stuff about every person they're doing. They're bringing up conversation. They're finding out stuff. They probably have more information. When you're getting your hair cut, are you telling the truth about your life? Yeah, I was. Because my person is the same person my mom goes to. Don't ask. So we spend half the time talking about my mom and how crazy my mom is. And it's just like she really knows about my life.

1:16:59Bill Simmons:it's how you communicate do you have a what stage the best I do I do it's the cinematography of Laszlo Kovacs I think who I was lucky enough to work with on Say Anything he was the he's the guy that shot Say Anything so don't think I wasn't aware that I was with the guy that did Shampoo and Ghostbusters another movie with a party scene exactly and that was on our minds too definitely but Laszlo was amazing for a first time director so helpful and so soulful had a great crew really cared about all the textures and the thing i want to shout out about this movie that i've always tried to learn from and this is from beaty i think because he does this in bonnie and clyde too he knows what a screen kiss can do it's better than sex in a movie if you get that kiss right because um and here's beaty's secret and i and i I learned this from watching his stuff, which is he gives you the moment before the kiss, the desire before the kiss, which I definitely went for in Jerry Maguire.

1:18:07It's the decision to make the kiss. The moment before they come in is where it's all decided because you know, in fact, when the kiss happens, everything's going to change. Beatty does not deny you that moment. He does it especially great in Bonnie and Clyde, and he does it great in this movie. With Laszlo, every kiss matters, and it's beautifully shot and it's very packed with emotion and the kisses in this movie shampoo are great.

1:18:33Bill Simmons:Such a good point because they're in the bathroom, he's doing her hair and she's just staring at him with those big fuck me eyes and then he's kind of doing her hair but then every once in a while it's like, oh, something's going on and you can just see it and they're doing it for almost like 45 seconds and you know it's going to happen. It's a really hard thing to pull off in a movie. It's a hard thing and Jerry Maguire, we really milked it, because he's with Renee in the doorway. Oh, yeah. And it's just there's all kinds of longing going on, and then he breaks the strap and all this stuff, and it's just like we just wanted to live in that moment.

1:19:10And I think we have some Paul McCartney music that's kind of like do-do-do in that actual moment. But no, I just thought that's a thing that is a little shining star that happens a couple of times in Shampoo. It's the kisses.

1:19:25Bill Simmons:I had a couple with Sage the Best the Warren the Warden beta combo just like I just love those two guys together Lester's house I'm just gonna give the Amanda Dobbins award for best piece of real estate just a really great house there's like a tennis court unbelievable upstate like things I just I wanted to see like a whole Google Earth shot of how that house was laid out where is that house I didn't know where it is we have to know where the house is Beverly Hills maybe somewhere in there Young Carrie Fisher's It's just hilarious to just see her three years before she's about to become one of the most famous.

1:19:59Bill Simmons:Or two years before she's about to become one of the most famous actors in the world. It's her first part. Yeah. She eats Beatty alive in that scene. Yep. I think, like, there is such boldness, and she just does not care. Well, we could say it now. She gets the Dion Waiters Award for best seat check. It's just—that's done. Yeah. This movie made me wonder, like, did the Star Wars thing— I wish there was an alternate version of her career where there's no Star Wars, and she's just in big time. She's making all these movies for 15 years. Absolutely. Absolutely. Great, great, great. Because when Harry met Sally, and she's the friend, the sarcastic, kind of insecure friend, and she's just really good at it.

1:20:41Bill Simmons:It's like, why didn't there six more of these for you? But I guess Star Wars just eats you up when you're in that franchise. Jerry Maguire trivia. the the line um you know you're not show friends you're show people no what is it um they're not what is it uh you're not it's not show it's not show friends it's show business yeah um i heard that from someone and i put it in the movie and they came to me later and said i actually stole that from carrie fisher that's carrie fisher's line oh wow so thank you carrie fisher thank you I have for what's age the best having a late 60s Gumar I just put that in for Sean thank you we always have Gumar jokes dating back to the Godfather it was the head of the Gumar era I don't know that Lester Karp would have used the word Gumar to describe Jackie that's really more maybe the 90s you need to be like Ileana Douglas to be identified as that right that's a different and then the soundtrack which features two Beatles songs it's crazy yes it's crazy probably not getting those 10 years later no plus manic depression by Hendrix crazy plus Mr.

1:21:53Soul wouldn't it be nice Mr. Soul is my favorite two Jefferson Airplane songs two yeah it's nuts and the Beach Boys yeah opening and closing

1:22:03Bill Simmons:we're up with the Sean Fentany Award for stealth homage that gives every movie nerd a criteria orgasm it's another category Cameron um There's not a lot in here. So I went with film director William Castle. Yeah. World-renowned for his work making experiential movie-going experiences for scary movies in the 50s and 60s. He shows up in the movie as Sid Roth, who's the guy who proposes Jackie at the 1968 Republican Party. Oh. And he is a legendary showman in movie history. There's a Joe Dante movie called Matinee that is loosely based on him and the movies that he made. And yeah, that's an interesting choice for a guy like that who's always trying to sell you on something to be the guy at that party.

1:22:53Bill Simmons:We have a Great Shock Order Award for most cinematic shot. I personally would go for the high shot when they end up on the cliff and they have the high shot to begin with and you can see all of LA and you know something's going to go down. I just think it's a really cool one. I had the same last shot, best shot. Yeah. I would go with that. For sure. Where is that location? Do we know? I don't know. You know, I researched it and couldn't figure it out. But it's got to be somewhere like up in the hills, like near Mulholland Drive or somewhere in there. That whole vortex. Sean, you have a flex category.

1:23:27Did you already do it? No, I didn't. You already mentioned it. Well, I'm going to do a different one then. So my flex category is the I used to fuck guys like you in prison award for craziest quote. Oh, that's good. I was going to do I don't fuck anybody for money. I do it for fun, which you already mentioned. But what if it was I just knew I just wish I knew what the hell I was living for. You can lose it all, you know. I mean, you can lose it no matter who you are. What's the sense of having it all? Market went down 10 points last week. Goddamn Lyndon Johnson. Maybe Nixon will be better. What's the difference?

1:24:04They're all a bunch of jerks. That's Lester at the end of the movie. Yeah. I think just doing the thesis of the movie.

1:24:11Bill Simmons:Yeah. Wow. A thesis that might apply in 2025. Sure does. We have the Butch's Girlfriend Award for week link of the film. I'd like to nominate the I'd like to suck his cock scene. It's just so crazy. And Beatty apparently fought for it to be in there, but I almost think it's too crazy. I think she was too classy to do that. It always bothered me with this movie. Interesting. Would be my take. I might be wrong. I think you're supposed to believe she's very drunk. But then, an hour later, she's fine. Yeah. I wouldn't say she's the best drunk acting actress, Julie Christie, at least not in this. She starts off, what does she start off with?

1:24:50A Dubonnet? Isn't that what she's drinking at the start of it? She's had a few. Yeah.

1:24:56Bill Simmons:Cruise from Few Good Men to Jerry Maguire got way better at being drunk in a scene. Big time. Because Few Good Men was not as good. That's really true. Was not as strong. We always had a theory he had never had a drink before, so he was pretending how to act when he had a drink. But Jerry Maguire, he had a figure. How do you direct somebody being drunk? He had a poker, so he had like a prop that was kind of helping him, I know. That's a good question. How do you direct somebody to be drunk? Glasses are huge. It's really hard. It's really hard. They kind of either have it or they don't. And if they try too hard, which they usually do that, you just have to scale it back and scale it back.

1:25:33So you're like, that was really good.

1:25:35Bill Simmons:Just get liquid. Let's try one more scale it back. Get a little liquidy about it. 10 % helps just to get like, because usually they're just like, ah, but it's just like, get like you're in, you're underwater a little bit. It's good. That's good. Kind of like doing a hula with it. So who's the best drunk scene actor of all time? I mean, Dudley Moore was drunk during all of Arthur. Yeah. I don't know how he did that. That's not acting. Arthur did really well. Yeah. Not acting. He wasn't acting. I mean, we talked about Newman and the verdict. But it's that sullen, quiet drunk. Yeah, it's almost like it's dark.

1:26:11It's like entrenched in your body drunk. It's not the should we or should we not follow the advice. The harder one is like the rom-com

1:26:16Bill Simmons:where somebody got too drunk and starts yelling at our hero. Yeah. It's usually when it goes really wrong. Cameron Diaz is really good in My Best Friend's Wedding. That's a great one. That's some good drunk acting. Yeah, that's a good one. I think Bill Nighy in Love Actually is pretty good. That's a great one too. He gets pretty liquidy. Especially on, what is it, Christmas Eve when he shows back up to his manager and you're not sure if they're going to have sex or something. A couple what's aged the worst, other than some of the words. The Paul Simon soundtrack, I wrote down before you even mentioned it.

1:26:51Bill Simmons:It's just corny and weird. You know I get what's that. It seems like he did write a bunch of songs, at least at that time, that ended up on Still Crazy after all these years. Yes. But you know what happens. They write songs for the movies that ask them for a song, and when the song turns out too good, they keep it. They don't give you that song. Yeah, they give you the fourth best song. There's even a thing in the Bruce Springsteen movie where he writes a song for Donna Summer, and it's, is it I'm on fire, or what is it? Yeah, it's like I'm on fire, and John Landau in the movie goes like, I'm sure glad you didn't give that song to Donna Summer.

1:27:25It's like, whoa, truth being told.

1:27:28Bill Simmons:I mean, honestly, you could have done that with Fever Dog. you could have just said fuck it this is a real song I'm giving this to Pearl Jam thank you give me a writer credit I think maybe not too late I don't know if Pearl Jam ever sang Fever Dog in concert you would explode into molecules I just think it would be really good I just think there's certain songs that like they would have been great there's a couple Springsteen songs they would have crushed at Cameron we always Sean and I always joke about when you own stock early in somebody you're the all time with Pearl Jam he had PJ stock he was like had NVIDIA stock in 2015 with Pearl Jib.

1:28:03Bill Simmons:They weren't even a band yet. Come on. They were Mookie Blaylock when you had them in singles. They were indeed Mookie Blaylock. Yeah, you were like the original stockholder. We put our chips down on that. Unbelievable. It's so funny that they're still together too. I know. Of all the bands from that era. Yeah. And Alice in Chains. I mean, though they've, you know, sadly. The only other what's staged the worst is Carrie Fisher did say years later that But Beatty tried to get it going with her, which is seven times. Four times, she said. And is it true that Debbie Reynolds made sure that she wasn't lit seductively?

1:28:40Yes.

1:28:41Bill Simmons:Debbie had some notes. She tried to get him to change the scripts, and she couldn't get him to change the scripts. Well, I'm sure she was like, oh, shit. I think they wanted to change want to fuck to want to screw, and they couldn't get that over. Yeah, interesting. Ruffalo Hannah Rubenstein-Partridge overacting a word. I got to bring it up, but Warren Beatty, when he's getting broken up with at the end. Kind of dows it up a little bit with the crying thing. It's a little out of the comfort zone. I can't say it 100 % worked. I'm with you on that. But please don't. He keeps saying honey over and over.

1:29:13It's like the fake true crime cry. Yeah, I just don't think he would actually cry in real life. I also had Jay Robinson, the guy who's the real owner of the salon, who's like still running number two behind Norman. Yeah, Norman pushes it a little hard. He turns it up a little bit. Although it's great when he goes nickel and dime. You got to learn to nickel and dime, George.

1:29:35Bill Simmons:So we have the CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award. What do you think of that? Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford's career. I love that. Chris Ryan's the best hottest take in 400 plus rewatchables episodes. I almost fell out of my chair. It's fantastic. And it's true. And it's true. Wow. I can't tell you how true. Confirming it. I feel that. There you go. Deeply in my soul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mine is for this. Sean already did his. Did you have one, Cameron? Yeah. It's that it's the least rewatchable, actually, of the three-picture run that Ashby was on.

1:30:09I think that's fair, even though it's probably the most successful. Yeah. So it kind of hurts me to say that in a way because I love Shampoo so much. But when I go back over the other two, I kind of find myself gravitating towards the last detail or in the right mood, Harold and Maude, of course. Funny that we didn't say it. this is the number three movie at the box office this year. That's crazy. $60 million. That is crazy. It's good for Warren Beatty. How did Last Detail do? Not nearly as well. 12 or 15 or smaller.

1:30:35Bill Simmons:My hottest take, I think Goldie Hawn in this mid-70s era was the single most adorable actress of all time. And it's different than prettiest, sexiest, all that. Just like adorable where every human being was like, oh, she seems cool. Or, oh, she's so cute. Or every guy would have had a crush on her. If you're on a movie set with her, you're just going to have a crush on her, period. I can't think of... Other people have swam in these circles, but I don't think as well, which leads to my second hottest take. 15 years too soon. She misses the whole rom-com blow-up era from 89 on, starting when Harry met Sally.

1:31:15Bill Simmons:Yeah. Meg Ryan doesn't exist. Meg Ryan's working down the street. Goldie's taken every part from her for 10 years. Meg Ryan's working on this suit. Meg Ryan's gone. Meg Ryan's delivering mail. She works at Dunkin' Donuts. She's Parkinson. She doesn't exist. She's gone. But Goldie Hawn, I just think they didn't have the right kind of... They had great movies, but they didn't have these movies that just would have kept it going for her. She kind of gets it back with First Wives Club and Banger Sisters and those movies, Which is kind of in the same zone, but she's not quite the rom-com. But she misses that sweet, sweet, sweet spot.

1:31:55Bill Simmons:She just could have been in My Best Friend's Wedding type of movies for 10 solid years. Killing it, for sure. I watched Private Benjamin recently, and she was... That movie's really good, and she's incredible in that movie. And it's a really weird movie that they just wouldn't make anymore. She's incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Casting when ifs, couldn't find any. Best that guy were, Johnny Bill as Johnny Pope. he was an academy award winning producer on the film The Sting so he was he was not he was a very well known person in Hollywood but he occasionally acted didn't act very often I love Tony Bill he looks like Warren Beatty on a bad day you know what I mean like he looks just enough like him where you're like yeah this guy should be at this party like he could be the extra yeah Jack Wharton thinks he's getting it on with George come on you know he also has a period mustache that kind of is both timeless and caught in a cedar.

1:32:50But it's like if Baby was in disguise or something in the movie. We're like, why is his brother here? I love how annoyed he is when Lester gets in the car after the bistro. Want to get a drink?

1:33:04Bill Simmons:Recasting Couch Director of City. So can I just... I think this movie is very well cast, but can I just offer you for Johnny Pope, sadly? No, we just gave him another one. Do this, do this. Can I just throw John Cazale in there for the hell of it? Yeah. That's pretty great. Just grab his time for two weeks. Yeah. And he could do Ask Scott Commercial Director. You know, we saw him do it as Brady. I think he even played like five parts in this movie. Damn. Just get him in there. You did your flex. Half-faceted research. So you mentioned the Paul Simon stuff. Paul Simon did write a title song called Have a Good Time.

1:33:37Bill Simmons:No. That Beatty said no. So he scrapped it. Have a good time. And they put it on and they're still crazy after all these years of them. you mentioned all the Debbie Reynolds stuff and we did everything else for that so Apex Mountain is a category we talk about when somebody had the most juice they were ever going to have in their career and I actually think Beatty this is a yes for him because this movie, he owned a lot of the back end of it, he put a lot of time into it, it's a huge success and I just think he can do whatever he wants after this not that he couldn't have before but this is the best example of that this sets up Reds, this sets up Everything he wants to be.

1:34:15It all, for sure. But is he even higher on the mountain at Heaven Can Wait or at Reds? I don't know. Like, after Heaven Can Wait or after Reds, has he ascended even further? Maybe it's Heaven Can Wait. I don't know. It's a really good point. Is it Heaven Can Wait? How many years after this movie is Heaven Can Wait? Three years. And in between is?

1:34:40Bill Simmons:He's turning down stuff. He was. What is the fortune before after this? He's producing, yeah. The most interesting one he turned down was Hardcore with Paul Schrader, a movie we've done on the rewatchables. Turn it off! Turn it off! We've done that one. I don't know. I can't see Warren Beatty. He didn't want to have a daughter. That's why he turned it down. Oh, wow. He's like, I'm too young and handsome to have a daughter, so can it be my wife goes to Newport and they're like, nah, that's not it. It's got to be a teenage daughter. Yeah. So he, yeah, he has Shampoo and the Fortune in 75 and then Heaven Can Wait in 78 and Reds in 81.

1:35:16For some reason, I feel by the time of Heaven Can Wait, Beatty is a little less like feral Beatty, you know, where he's just like in the culture. Heaven Can Wait's kind of like, you know, like a nice pass, a nice romantic comedy turn. But he doesn't have his teeth in it the way he does in Shampoo.

1:35:39Bill Simmons:I think it's this. I agree. think about it. I agree. Julie Christie, obviously not because she did Darling and Dr. Zhivago in the same year, which is like pretty good. Hall of Fame, Apex Mountain year. Pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like one of the biggest movies of the 60s and a movie where she won an Oscar. You're not topping that. Goldie Hawn, no. Robert Towne? This is a pretty nice run for him. It's got Chinatown in this back to back. Yes. I'm going to say yes. I have yes. Jack Warden, no. it's somewhere in the late 70s old school Hollywood scenery in a famous Hollywood movie it's in play Triumph Motorcycles as a character in a movie definitely definitely and then late 60s party scenes trying to think of a better one this was the most sprawling for sure I'm going to say no on party scenes in general not just because what about the Peter Sellers movie be the party.

1:36:40Bill Simmons:The answer for... Oh, yes. It's about a party. Good call. Party scenes all the time. Apex Mountain. I'm not just saying that because he's here. Project X. I'm not even going to look at him. Yeah, Project X. No, it's... Number one. Russell Hammond in Topeka, Kansas. Yeah. Yeah. Golden God. You're just not getting a better party scene now. Thanks, guys. I want to see the... I'm intentionally not looking at him. Do you think that was a good party? Which one? The Topeka party? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Seemed like a good party. Yeah. Everybody's having a good time. That's what happened in the 70s. He's participating with them.

1:37:10Yeah. It's like he's one of them. He's there with like Aaron when the snake gets eaten. Or the mouse gets eaten by the snake. Next category. And it's the 1984 thing, you know? When he says like in 11 years, it's going to be 1984. Think about that. Think about that.

1:37:31Bill Simmons:This next category we have anyway, but this will be really fun with you here. Cruz or Hanks for the lead part who's winning the career total is Hanks ahead there's only one rational answer Hanks is currently ahead but it's close and with Cameron here there's only one rational answer I think it's definitely Cruz it's the role I don't know if Cruz ever would have played although he did do Eyes Wide Shut so maybe all bets are off with Cruz Frank TJ Mackey is the closest oh for this collision between like I'm a sexual god and all this vulnerability it's definitely Cruz it's definitely Cruz I think he could have done it Hank's trying is funny that would be amusing that's a different comedy it gives the movie a totally different flavor I don't know if he could pull up the haircut his hair's like mine it just goes up I don't know if I want to see the hair dryer stuck in his pants you know I don't know Scorsese or Spielberg to direct Scorsese I agree what role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

1:38:30Bill Simmons:Leicester had that as well that's a dream to think about that's one of the great Philip Seymour Hoffman stories is his story you had him for two days yeah well no I think and he was sick or you had him for a week we had him for a week yeah and he was sick most of the time he had the flu that's why he's like a little red in the face and stuff and was like kind of coughing and his energy was low but completely brought it did you know as you're filming it like this is like a legendary Philip Seymour Hoffman Because you know you were changing my life when you were making those scenes in that movie?

1:39:06I kind of did because it was the first scene we filmed. And he was on the street with Patrick Fugate. And they were doing this scene where I was walking with the real Lester Banks. And so I was watching him do the very thing that I had done with Lester. And I was listening to it on the headset. And he sounded like Lester. And I had this moment where I wanted to call up David Geffen and just talk to him about it. because I felt like it was such a gift that I'd been given to be able to do this in continuity and everything. So they got David Geffen on the phone and said, hello. And I go, David Geffen, it's Cameron here.

1:39:40I just did my first scene. And I just, like, I can't believe that I'm here on the same street where it all happened. And we're filming with the same people, you know, on film that felt exactly the same. I can't believe, how did I get here? And he goes, Jerry Maguire. I hung up. Oh, my God.

1:39:59How's that for belief? it's right to the chase yeah no it's like unbelievable let's speak truth and I'll be gone

1:40:06Bill Simmons:so out of all the parts of the most famous which is the one that you felt like you had to get the actor perfectly for the part just for your own sanity was it Lester Banks no it was Patrick Fugit yeah William Miller William Miller gotta be but followed closely by Lester because we saw a lot of people for Lester and Gail Levin the casting director said at the very beginning you're gonna see everybody in town and you're gonna end up with Philip Seymour Hoffman and it happened exactly like that and he said um i i talked to him and i said that to him on the phone like please play the part he goes okay and uh and i said can you come and do like you know a couple of weeks of rehearsals to do it and he was like i don't think you're gonna need that i'm like i knew this guy it's very important to me he's like a mentor i gotta get it right and he He goes, you won't need that much time with the part, but I'll come out.

1:41:00So I said, thank you so much. And he showed up. He came to the office. He didn't have the flu yet, but he was in a pretty good mood. And he sat down and he goes, well, let's just do the scenes. And he did all the scenes back to back. And I said, okay, we're rehearsed. This is great. He was there 45 minutes and he was back to the airport to fly home. that's how dialed in he was on lester but like kind enough to know that that was what was going to happen but still came out on the promise of two weeks then when he showed up he had the flu and uh so like battled through it but it gave him a quality that i think was kind of corrosive in a

1:41:38Bill Simmons:really cool way he would have brought yeah he seemed like beaten down so you kind of needed him to be physically sick and and i when we got to the scene where he's supposed to say you know like we're the uncool and stuff um i always saw that as like a victory scene like you know we're the uncools like that that todd rungren picture that's on his album something anything where he's like this was in my mind and it was uh phil hoffman that said like why don't we do the scene like we're the only two people awake in the world me and william miller we do a quiet and i'll be sitting we're cool and uh yeah it's spectacular then you cut the scene where he's like william how's the peeping how's the peeping didn't make sense didn't make sense why why why but yes he would have been the Lester of our current time have you met his son no Cooper yeah no I dig him great kid really yeah we have we have some mutual friends excellent and he's very cool about his dad he's just like you know and he's a really good actor but he's just like ask me anything about my dad wow like my dad was awesome like I I'm totally cool talking about it.

1:42:44Bill Simmons:I love that. He's a really good actor. All right, pickinets. Would Felicia have been more upset that George probably just fucked her 17-year-old daughter? I feel like yes. I suspect yes. So maybe Beatty was correct? So you too have notes on Lee Grant's performance. I'm just trying to... I can't judge the 1968, what was going on that year. I think there's a case to be made that there's like a shell shock protectionist quality that goes into play when something like that happens. where you're just like block it out to pretend it didn't happen. Okay. What do you have for picking this? What's your biggest one?

1:43:20Bill Simmons:Just like the thing that doesn't quite work. The thing you're like come on. After you've seen a movie seven times and you're like all right that blah blah blah. I had a note what was it? It was yeah it was like I just got confused whose house the party was and stuff. So that to me was like why do they all end up there and I don't quite get why Lester is upset to go there and it's kind of supposed to be his house. So I kind of got tripped up there. But that may not be the most stellar choice. But that kind of rubbed at me. One of the things that I was curious about is like, are we supposed to think that she slept with Johnny Pope on the night of the party, Jill?

1:43:56It's intentionally ambiguous. It's ambiguous. Like, Beatty accuses her of it or kind of hints at it, I think. But are we supposed to think it happened? Yeah, he like has to come into the house, but she says no, which indicates that like he would follow her into the house because they had been intimate, but we don't really know what happened. And is she sleeping with him to get the part? Or does she have more agency than that and she's just going to be who she is, man? I don't know. It's a little… It may not be the perfect answer, but… How do you get a loan when you're a hairdresser to open a salon?

1:44:31In 1968. What do you got to present to the bank? What's a good… Like, what's the process there? Like, do you bring in clients and say, like, these clients are coming with me? Like, what was George's plan here? I think that's why they shut him down. But like, if you were actually trying to do that, how would you do it? You probably just need an independent investor. You can't get a bank to do it. But just this whole process pursuing that is very funny, where he thinks he's going to be able to get this, and he's just like, just trust me, bro. I got clients. That whole thing is all a little squishy as well.

1:45:02I was a little squishy on how low the ask was. It's like$10 ,000 or something. So Lester has to really think about it. It's like, does this guy really have money? Or is he even in 1968? Or is he a fraud? Yeah. How rich is he?

1:45:15Bill Simmons:I have two for the party. This will be a good example of how picking nits works. One is pretty stealth. The valets just get the cars way too quick. It's a huge party. It's a great note. Cars are part. You're out at that party. You're out there for 20 minutes. Other people are out. People are smoking. You're talking to people. The valet show. These cars are ready in it. But this is the bigger one.

1:45:40Bill Simmons:how does the motorcycle get to the last party? We see him in a car with Julie Christie going to the party, then the second thing, but he leaves the last party on his Triumph motorcycle. How? Wow. He didn't take the motorcycle there. Wow. Nice call, man. Should we delete this episode? What the hell? This movie is null and void. Oh my gosh. Wow. Maybe he made a call and someone brought it over. Well, since Cameron's here, we have to do a couple of picky nits for Jerry Maguire. Please. Oh, gosh. Why would Denver want to trade up for Frank Cushman in 1996 when they had John Elway? Where was your sports consultant on that one?

1:46:20Can we travel back in time and just get in a room and work this out? They had John Elway. What if they need another quarterback? Well, maybe they were thinking about, you know, how to continue the legacy of great— Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guys, it was a parallel universe, please. Okay. All things are possible. That's a good answer. Jesus.

1:46:35Bill Simmons:don't you want to live there Dorothy had Dorothy had a young kid in health benefits is she really quitting she's got a young child this did come up in our discussion in the film I think yeah pretty risky move but she was inspired right she was inspired I will go with you and this is this is a this is very close to the theme of the movie you guys this is like the people you don't expect who show up that's a good when you need somebody it's the people you planned on being there for you don't show up and that's usually how it works when you were suspended by ESPN where was I right by your side you were I was right by your side you didn't care about health benefits I did not Warren Beatty calling the night of the LA Times story it's like fuck where did that guy come from all my friends silent it's like this is this is why Dorothy makes that move she is that character Sean what if you had a child yeah would I have followed Bill no I would not he's producing NBA countdown down um this was the big one we've argued about this in the movie how he got back to the to the uh divorced women's support group after the monday night football game how long had that meeting been going on so the monday night football game starts 907 eastern 1995 707 phoenix time or is that 807 phoenix time so one hour back one hour one hour back 707 game ends 10 30 press conference airport pre-9-11 though.

1:48:04Bill Simmons:The time travel happens in the airport. 11.30? That's where the splice happens. Lance and LAX. So the divorced women's group is still going at one in the morning. Absolutely. Okay, so we just have goodbye after that. They have fucking problems, man. They gotta work through some shit. Is there coffee? Everybody's tired, you can tell. Is there coffee at that point? Is it like 11.30? I need a little caffeine. By the time he gets there, my mom is counseling everybody in the room. It's like, you know, all their stories are gone. She's just talking about neuropathways and stuff. I mean, I like your close attention to this, but, you know.

1:48:38Bill Simmons:See, this is what we do. I'm here to help you through this stuff. There's intentionality. The biggest, the best one of all the ones we just mentioned, though, is the Triumph motorcycle is not at that last party. It's just not. Just one Oscar. You can only give one Oscar to anything in the movie. What do you give it to? Can I give it to the guy that does the Indian chant at the bistro? Best supporting actor? I just want to give it to him. Or the woman who's next to Jackie when she's talking about wanting to suck his cock. Oh, yeah. The woman at the table. Oh, that's like that. Yeah. Well, Lee Grant won it, so I guess that's our answer.

1:49:14Bill Simmons:Somebody actually won the Oscar. I would make a case for town. I think the script is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Probably an answerable question. We already did all mine, unless you guys have any other ones. I mean, did George ever get a salon? Did Lester pay for it? did Lester and Jackie make it oh that's a definite no yeah you think they made it no no no I'm agreeing with they broke up but how long and does she move on to another situation no I think she found somebody else who had some money I'm with you maybe a little younger I think that's what happens does George get the shop at all I'm just saying he's too much of a he's a flake he's too much of a flake I don't think he could run a business did anybody talk about what happens to George any of the He's bounced around a few hair salons.

1:50:01Bill Simmons:I think there might have been some late 70s cocaine. Right. A path for him. Try this. This stuff's great. No tragic end. Two years later, he's just getting fired from his third salon. I got you. Yeah, I think it goes kind of badly for George. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:50:20What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie?

1:50:25Bill Simmons:I think that Triumph is eligible. that's what I chose I am not a motorcycle person in fact I don't want to get on a motorcycle I don't want to ride in one I'm scared of them and yet I want the motorcycle that's how cool that motorcycle is the brown leather jacket I think is in the running too the jacket he has for the one he whips into the garbage I was kind of disappointed by that jacket you don't like it? yeah I just I didn't know if it was iconic enough it seemed kind of thin and shiny in a way like cheap that's just me a little cheap a little cheap and maybe that's good character yeah What about the blow dryer?

1:50:59Oh, that's a good one. That's a really good one. Autograph. Yeah, that's good. It depends. It's like, do you want a usable prop? Do you want something like the Triumph where you can just ride around on it? Is the Triumph just for show? I think it's for show. It's for show. Put it right in the living room. Yeah, got it. I feel like this category should be modified a little bit to be the rewatchable studio prop from the movie. What prop would we want? What could you put in a glass case in this room? Like the Kush thing. What would be in the Kush spot? Yeah. Kush Corner, yeah. I would go with the earring just because it's like— That's good.

1:51:31It's like the scene in the apartment, you know, like the cracked mirror. It's just everything kind of spins on it, and it's just there.

1:51:40Bill Simmons:Are you aware of the memorabilia auction rise for Hollywood stuff? You must be. A little bit, yeah. Like the Shawshank Bible going for like$450 ,000? Damn. I didn't know about that. Yeah, like shit's going down. People are paying for stuff. How much can we get for the Penny Lane coat? Greg's excited in the corner He's like wait what? He keeps He keeps it all The Penny Lane coat Could we get some No I think Are you asking us to bid on it or No I'm just like asking Just like you know I'm like Lester here I would say just from Almost From Almost Famous Wouldn't it be the Russell Hammond guitar Used in the concert scene That would probably be the highest Lloyd's Boombox maybe Something like that Lloyd's Boombox Oh my god You don't have that do you?

1:52:20It's in my garage Oh my god Come on Don't sell it Oh my god don't sell it don't sell it yeah that you can't sell don't sell never never I never saw that stuff that's like

1:52:30Bill Simmons:yeah that's up there did you see it came back that it was memed again when Cusack was at the Cubs game did you see and he had his arms up and people were putting the boombox up I did I'm surprised it's eternal man it's so amazing my daughter said this era's coming back the Lloyd Dobler era's coming back God willing her theory this show Summer I Turned Pretty on Amazon everyone loves this character Conrad and he's a big like he's like a quarter yearner person and my daughter who's 20 was like this is women want to be courted like nobody courts us anymore and that's why we like Conrad and I was like it sounds like you would have liked Lloyd Dobler Lloyd is the only one that I would write and have thought about writing more about you know more of the story of Lloyd Lloyd now?

1:53:14Bill Simmons:He owns a series of Muay Thai studios in Northern California or any number of eras just he's so much fun to write for write that character I loved it I love it still. That's dangerous to say out loud. And guys, filmed by Laszlo Kovacs. The boombox scene is fucking filmed by the guy that filmed Shampoo. Also a very important song choice scene. Indeed, yeah. Only one song worked. And we did try everything. Coach Finstock wore a best life lesson. Everyone sells out. I don't know if I agree with that. It doesn't have to be that way. But that's the lesson of the movie. Or the theme, right? Yeah. We're all going to sell out at some point?

1:53:54Well, it's kind of like an acid burn takeaway in the year that Jaws comes out and kind of changes movies forever. You know, that like you could say this is the highest arc of being able to end a movie where everyone loses. Yeah. And then… Did you have anything different? Just that Jill is the only one that claws her way out of that. So optimism and hope does triumph in some way, even in this kind of circumstance. So Jill represents the Jimmy Carter presidency. Or— I'm just— Keep going. Shots like, give me more. Didn't Town say Jill's attempt to write what a 70s woman was going to be? Mm-hmm. You know, who had more control over herself and was able to make her own choices and not be so dependent on finances or men.

1:54:50And that's his attempt to like have a little bit of a happy ending to it. So I kind of go with that as a mini lesson. There's a way out of this sellout generation. What do you have for double feature choice? I wrote the parallax view down as basically just like the two sides of the baby persona where like there's not a single laugh in the parallax view. the whole time you're like what the fuck and it's the movie right before this movie yeah and it's right before this interesting cool choice I went Rules of the Game which I think was you know a father of this movie in a way the interrelationships the the kind of wistful feeling that Jean Renoir the director who acts in Rules of the Game has it's I would love to watch the two of them together

1:55:41Bill Simmons:I had Nashville. I just went 1975 sprawling. That's cool. Two different areas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Both political, both full of music. And then who won the movie? It's got to be Beatty. Beatty. Yeah. Beatty. All the way. All right. This is where we ask producer Craig, who hasn't seen a lot of these movies, especially before the 2000s, what he thought. Loved it. Totally loved it. I'm increasingly starting to love all the movies from this era. But the charisma... We've corrupted them. Yeah. The charisma of all the actors in this movie just jumps off the screen so much. I also just appreciate that this movie's both trying to say something and is also just a good time and very enjoyable.

1:56:18And it feels like more and more now, movies that are trying to say something have to be serious or depressing. And a lot of your movies say something but are fun hanks and are enjoyable and laid back. And I don't know. This movie is just so unrecognizable to everything that's going on today in so many ways. Like, we talked about L.A., but I mean, And just the fact that it's such a small movie, such a small story, and it made$60 million, which is the equivalent of$360 today. It made$300 million adjusted for inflation domestic, which is the same that the new Jurassic Park made this year. Wow. It is just so remarkable that a movie this small can do what it did back then.

1:56:57But yeah, I just loved it across the board. It was amazing. It's so great.

1:56:59Bill Simmons:It was both small but had major stars in it, which always helps. This is a really hard thing to do. and it's also really true to make a point and sugarcoat it enough in like charisma great casting and all that stuff where you just it goes down so easy and it's not about you must remember this which does make those movies so serious yeah I love it when you realize later how much was packed into the shit that made you laugh sometimes it's good to have major stars in a movie like this and other times it isn't like I was like the the sliding doors almost famous was if Brad Pitt's Russell Hammond is that are better or worse movie.

1:57:35Bill Simmons:Right? And that almost happened. And I actually think it's better that he wasn't. Even though I love Brad Pitt. But in this case, it's so important that Beatty, who everyone knew at the time to be a ladies' man, to make a movie about being a ladies' man. And he never made a movie like this. So the idea of him leveraging that persona for everybody was genius. Like, Burt Reynolds couldn't have been this. He could have done it. It just wouldn't have been as good. It would have felt off. For sure. it would have felt off. I have a question for you guys. Yeah. What is the best use of celebrity in a movie?

1:58:09Like big stars. What's your favorite use of big stars? When they're slightly off-brand or when they go full into brand but give you something extra? So we talk about this a lot.

1:58:20Bill Simmons:The thing I always say is every once in a while I want the A-lister to be an A-lister. Just like do like in Cruise Cruise, Jerry Maguire is one of the ones we mentioned, right? He's like an interviewed the vampire the year before. Died hair. He's far and away. Sometimes people just need to be the person we fell in love with in a movie. It sounds stupid, but I don't think it's stupid. Just every few years, be the person that we love. Yeah. I always think of Denzel as an interesting example of this because he very rarely transforms. He's always Denzel. He doesn't dye his hair blonde. and his movies are varying quality, right?

1:59:03And when they're good, they're the best movies of all time. And when they're bad, they can be pretty bad. And yet there's something always very watchable about him. Yeah. You know, you'll watch him kind of make any, I've watched every Equalizer movie and I really enjoy myself watching them. Another actor, I don't think I would have any time for those movies. So I do think that that is a, but that's the 1 % of the 1 % of major stars. I mean, you know better than anybody, like how hard it is to find somebody who the audience will be like, I'm with you no matter what. Yeah.

1:59:32Bill Simmons:Which I think Chalamet might have that quality. I agree. I agree. He's the next one of the under 30 guys. Leo definitely had it. You've seen Marty? That's not a very likable character, and yet you're with him throughout that movie. Did you see it coming early on Chalamet? You know… That he had that coming. Yeah, in Homeland Season 1 when he played the young… Yeah, the boyfriend of the girl's mother. Yeah. I didn't see that one right away with him. Because he was really going to call me by your name. But I certainly didn't think he was going to be like the next guy. Leo was a little different because he was clearly really good.

2:00:06Bill Simmons:I've told this story about seeing him in a Growing Pains episode when he was this adopted kid in Growing Pains. And he was just so much better than everybody. He was crying and flipping out. and it's like, oh my God. But it wasn't until This Boy's Life where you're like, oh, protect this person at all costs. With Chalamet, I've just been saying that this next movie, I think, is the ultimate test of if the thing that a lot of your movies have, that a lot of movies over the last 75 years have, still exists. That like, can you make an original movie, character-based drama, that is not IP, that is not an event movie, and will people show up primarily because of who the star is?

2:00:44and is there enough of a wave of excitement for him that they'll buy into it because of that. And Chalamet has evolved into what Leo didn't have to do 20 years ago, which is Chalamet knows how to sell his movie and is actively involved in the marketing of the film. I saw that viral piece. And he just has great instincts for that, which is something Leo didn't have to do and actively refused. He didn't do SNL. He wouldn't do stuff like that. Tim leans all in. When they know kind of like how to use themselves and like how much you can kind of like move the aperture, but like really it's got to be this kind of thing and they're smart enough to know that like going wildly off in another direction might be artistically satisfying and you know sexy but it's not going to work.

2:01:25And Cruz is a little bit like that. Like I heard him talking to somebody once who wanted him to do basically a cameo and wouldn't it be fun if. And he was really smart about it. He said like I could do it but it would mess up your movie because that ship would tilt in a way that it would take on water. And I almost wish it wasn't that way. But when I'm in a movie, it kind of has to be right there. And TJ Mackey is the only time where I kind of could mess around and be a smaller character doing such and such, but still use the thing. But basically, I have found over time that if you put me in a movie, I kind of draw attention.

2:02:09and so it's got to be kind of used in that way and i thought that was so super smart you know what's interesting is pta feels the exact opposite he loves bringing like major major famous people

2:02:22Bill Simmons:into his movie and and kind of explaining i don't even know if there's a right answer because i agree more with the cruise angle of like i don't want to get taken out of the movie i'm watching because somebody's so famous yeah you're like oh this person's in there but yeah it's it's I mean, if I was an up-and-coming star, I would just want to work with good directors. I think that blueprint's been established. That's how you're going to win. But I do think the superhero capes screwed everything up for an entire generation. You felt like... Totally agree. It was like, can you make it to the point where I might get a superhero movie and that was your goal instead of like, ooh, good directors want to work with me.

2:03:01Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:03:01Bill Simmons:You hit a point in the 90s where people were like, if I'm in that guy's movie, I'm going to come off well. And that's where I would... to be. Yeah, that would be my Chalamet advice. Just go where the directors are, dude. I think you got the best advice ever from Leonardo DiCaprio, right? He said no hard drugs, no superheroes. Wow. That's great advice. And keep a little mystique. Keep a little mystique is huge. Yeah. Because you can blow that so easily and you're basically asked to blow it constantly because we've got to sell the movie. We've got to do this and this and this and this. And the people that know to hold back those are the ones that you lean forward and you go to that was nicholson that was nicholson nicholson was like coming up next on the tonight show it's jack nicholson like if he went on anything you were stunned they they wanted him to be on the cover of rolling stone once and i remember and he sent back the message like i i i don't want to appear as myself on the cover and i won't do it i also won't be on tv because then i'll be in your living room and i'll be your friend.

2:04:07I'm not your friend. I'm supposed to be very big. And I'm supposed to be somebody that you come to see because you don't know enough about me. And sorry.

2:04:18Bill Simmons:Well, that's what made it so crazy. When he came to the 84 finals in Boston and he was just there as a Laker fan and everybody was like, Nicholson's here. This is up there giving us the middle finger. We just felt like it broke our brains. Which is mystique. Yeah. it's just crazy they did it Leo's done a great job I mean Leo's in his 50s now and I still don't feel like I know that much about him which and then he likes the ladies you gotta love that's about it you wanna talk about your book for a quick second how long were you working on it I don't know a couple years definitely it was writing for pure joy I just like we had I'd done enough scripts at the time and we had worked on a musical of Almost Famous and I just felt like I wanna get back to like the analog thing a little bit and write about learn about my dad and some stuff that happened growing up that I didn't really know enough or had written about and to also tell some of the stories behind the stories that I'd written for Rolling Stone.

2:05:13And so this is just me, basically the first language of writing, just writing for pure joy on yellow legal tablets. I had like 800 pages and cut it down. His finger still worked. Literally.

2:05:24Bill Simmons:My finger stopped working. His handwriting doesn't work anymore. It's my favorite kind of writing. Do they work? We'll see. One of these days. On Letterboxd, right? Work on it. No, it's good. Yeah, I guess you do write some Letterboxd stuff for every once in a while. I write emails. That's about it at this point. And do it really well. I wrote like five million words. I mean, what do people want from me? Wrote for 15 straight years. It's time for Mystique. 10 ,000 words a week for 15 years, 20 years. I mean, they want more. They're demanding more. They're demanding more from you. I love writing.

2:05:55I just love it. I love it. And I love directing where the words come to life with the actors, the kind of actors that we were talking about. It's the most fun. You know what's the most fun of directing, besides putting the music on the scenes? The little things that an audience finds that cracks them up that you had no idea was funny. Because that means you built characters that they care about. Right. So like the little things. What's an example of that in one of your movies someone told you about? I don't know. Like in Jerry Maguire, I can come up with Bonnie Hunt saying, don't cry at the beginning of the date, cry at the end like I do.

2:06:27Which we thought was like a funny little filler line. And it's like huge. Huge. Huge laughs. In Almost Famous, Eric Stonestreet saying, you got a message from your mother. She's a handful. Biggest laugh in the movie. That's a great movie. The clerk saying, she's a handful. So like, that's the stuff that makes you really laugh because you've cut that line a million times and somehow it snuck back in and it ends up bringing the house down. It's the most fun. And you never find out until the first time you show the movie and it never changes.

2:07:02Bill Simmons:in different countries with Dune documentary same thing it's always shocking what hits you just have because you've seen all the cuts of stuff and you have no idea sometimes it can be a word oh that one really yeah you can't believe it it can be a word but for a movie it's got to be more fun sometimes it's a gesture it's wild and so you know I just I love doing it and the book is really an extension of personal writing which is my favorite kind of movie making and my favorite kind of writing and songs. I mean, shit. The personal stuff. I've had one of the most unique careers. The Rolling Stone, how old were you?

2:07:41Bill Simmons:15 when I started. Think about that. Think about that. Think about that, Sean. How old's your daughter? I'm a huge failure. What do you want me to say? I've accomplished nothing. I agree. How old's your daughter? My daughter's four. So 11 years from now writing for Rolling Stone? That seems inconceivable. I don't see that happening for a variety of reasons. But I will explain to her how special Cameron's life and work is. I just think that's crazy that you were able to fulfill a task at age 15. I was like barely handing term papers in. Will you do like a follow-up to this? Because this is only a part of your life.

2:08:21This isn't everything that you've done. Yeah, I probably will. The next one is going to be a collection of the journalism that happened during the time because this is kind of like how the stories happened and everything. So the next one is going to be a collection of the stories from the time. And also I re-interviewed a lot of the same people, Fleetwood Mac and even Bowie. In the last 15 years, I went around and talked again to a lot of the people that we did those big cover stories on. And it was fascinating how they related to their younger selves. And so that's in there too. And then maybe I'll write more, but I want to make some movies now.

2:08:57what was the best concert especially talking to you guys i know you're rejuvenated come on man come on what was the single best concert you ever went to uh the who san diego um one of the first concerts maybe the second concert i ever went to um amazing amazing concert i had like a cheap seat and i snuck down right before the who came on and the audience like huge like all the the general seating people just like crammed up to the front and i got caught up in it and i got slammed to the front of the barrier and so they were six feet away from me and oh my god come out fucking keith moon tumbles onto the drum set across the stage and they and daltry comes out swinging his mic and entwistle puts on his his bass and then townsend comes out in this silver jumpsuit with the crown he goes hello san diego what a pleasure to be here in your trash can because the sports Torino looks like a trash can.

2:09:54I'm like, fuck! He knows San Diego. He knows everything. And then the audience crushed me into the barrier and I couldn't breathe.

2:10:02Bill Simmons:That was the best. That's great. At some point, can you write a book about movies the way Tarantino did? I love the Tarantino book. Just like eight, nine movies that meant something you know why. Absolutely. I think it's an easy layup book for you. So fun. Thanks. This was chapter one. It would be about the personal experience that you have with the movie. I think every great director should be forced to write a book like that. Forced? Yeah, forced. Like in a fascist regime where they all have to write books? Like Trump does a decree. Great. Okay. Here's what I've decided. We're going to have these people.

2:10:34Bill Simmons:It's going to be great. That's the thing I would ask him for if I got his ear. I'd be like, can you please send down a decree that Cameron Crowe write a movie book just for me to read? And protect movie theaters. Can you do that too? Cameron Crowe, this was a true pleasure. Good luck with the book. So great. And thank you for our Kush sign. Well, Kush will be here to bless your future. I'll figure it out. It'll be prominently somewhere. Just as long as you hear little strains of kush lash when you look at it. Yeah, yeah. This is great, though. Thanks. Thanks to Craig as well. Thanks, Craig. Thanks to Eduardo.

2:11:04Bill Simmons:And we'll see you in the Rewatchables next week. Fantastic. Thanks for letting me come in and hang.

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