‘Sinners’ With Bill Simmons, Van Lathan, and Wesley Morris

31:12Like, why would this be news? And they just went, because the person's a celebrity. right away because you have notoriety it piques people's interest and because it piques people's interest they have all different types of attitudes and thoughts about what you should do and how your life affects theirs and that is just not to me a natural no nothing about it is natural it's just not i mean obviously some people can handle it some people can't i think that we don't talk about it and I wonder we don't talk about it as a disease you know there are a couple professional shrink oriented people in my life psychologists and psychiatrists who definitely think there's some that it should be considered a mental health situation that people who are put in that zone should be prepared for I mean if you look at the way influencers operate at this point, right?

32:13And the way that social media operates. It completely changes, it warps people's understanding of reality. Their own personal reality.

32:23Bill Simmons:There's three different types of, I mean, three people for this conversation, right? Musicians, actors, athletes. When you're an athlete, when you're somebody like Tom Brady, and you win the, you come back against the Falcons, and you win your Super Bowl, you become the GOAT, and you come back from 28 to three and everybody's just like, wow. Oh my God. Like this. I don't know how you're normal 10 years later after that. So there's that. Then you have the musicians where you're selling out arenas night after night and everybody's just losing their fucking mind. And that's just your life. And you're going from city to city and you just get this crazy three hours of adoration.

33:00Bill Simmons:I don't know how you stay normal there. And then actors, even there's not only do they become famous like the leo type of famous but i remember when i had mbj on the second time in 2015 during creed oh no the third time it was after uh black panther um and he was talking about how black panther fucked him up because he like inhabited the role and he had to become like a dark person in that movie and he couldn't dark like killmonger stop oh oh you're trying to start some shit okay

33:34Bill Simmons:you can't give him any red meat oh my god okay but he was saying he couldn't they finished filming the movie and he couldn't get out of the place he was in in the movie like he couldn't he had to like he talked about he had to like go get therapy and it became like a news story because he admitted like i needed therapy to get out of get out of that wherever i was So when you're an actor in that space, you have to do that. I don't know. I think after 20 years, you fucking go nuts. What if what you do is not just the best part of somebody's day, but the best moment in somebody's life? Right. What if that play that you made, like somebody from Atlanta talks shit to me, I go 28-3.

34:21Don't matter how many.

34:22Bill Simmons:Well, what would happen if you met Tracy Porter right now? I'm gonna sit down and talk to him I cried so the Saints won the Super Bowl I did not think that that was possible it was a ridiculous happening so it's just a weird space to operate in and then this movie talks about something else as well man when you hear them early recordings I remember listening to you talk about some of this stuff as part of the 1619 project when you listen to those early recordings of Muddy Waters or the music that was coming out at that time, you think, what series of circumstances and events led to that man making that sound?

35:06Yep. I always, that's the thing you always think about. Because they came, they were first. Yeah, you just go, what made him go, I have to sit down right here and get this out. And when that sound went everywhere, it was no different than what Preacher Boy did. The Stones heard it. the Beatles heard it. Everybody heard it everywhere and they want, I'm not saying that they were vampires at all. I'm not saying that at all. You cannot not say that. I'm not trying to say that. No, no. Just keep going. Just keep going. So what I'm saying is when like the music actually did in real life what it did in the movie, everybody went, Jesus Christ, what is that?

35:49I want to get as close to it as I possibly can and let it push me forward to connect in the same way I want to make that sound or at least I want to understand it um and those early recordings are hard to come by now but when you hear him it feels like he is speaking in interdimensional language with the the combination of the guitar and his voice and the emotion yeah and so like that part of the movie where Remick goes, oh, that feeling happens. Like that's a real thing. You what the fuck is that? I gotta have you. And then the movie orients itself around that. But that's the point at which it like it.

36:37The need to I mean, there's so many things happening with Remick as both a person who understands the rules of vampirism, right? like the need to be invited into the club that whole that whole aspect of the metaphor right in order for this to work you guys i need you to believe in me in order for me to take this from you for me to take it from you you have to you have to let me do it um i mean that is how those low max recordings worked in a lot of ways i mean in the same way that you don't want to talk shit about Mick Jagger and Robert Plant. Like, I don't really want to talk shit about those recordings, those field recordings.

37:22But like, I think that there's an aspect of, and this movie understands that a lot of the history of the creation of Black art has had to in some way, if it's going to proliferate through an economic system, it's gonna need a white person. Because they control the system. And I think that there's some balance. I mean, this isn't even about this is as much about it about artists, but it's really not about white artists and black artists. It's about white business and black artists. And Remick's offer is so ambiguous, right? Like, I mean, we understand at the very least that these are vampires who have a job to do in terms of biting the people, but they also stand for something.

38:15And it actually, I take that back, because I just forgot the most important thing about Remick, which is he's part of a minstrel trio, right? Like, when they arrive at the club, they arrive as three people. One's got a banjo, one's got a fiddle, and the other one's got a guitar. And... By the way, they sound pretty good. I like it. I mean, that's... I like Remick's music in this movie. Yeah. I was kind of into it. That's the joke, of course, when... Wait, what? that's what you liked Bill

38:49but you know remember and I had a conversation about this movie for for Cannonball and we talked a lot about Pick Poor Robin Clean as you know it's an old song right that these two black women would go around and perform it made them very successful and um you know in in the limited range in which two black women could be successful at the turn of the century performing a kind of blues music um nationally speaking but i mean they were very regionally known and this song was no secret it was popular and to think about what the song is doing in the world of the movie we picked poor robin clean like that is simultaneously vampirism of of the of the most literal sense but also the metaphorical vampirism right like we are we are we are eating at the bones of a thing and that thing in some case could be black culture as we know it and that's the song that they use to impress these black people were standing in the doorway being like what y 'all want And of course, there is one person, because there's always somebody in the back who's just like, wait, now I can't remember if it's Stack or...

40:17It's Mary. Is it Mary? Who says, we gotta go out. No, no. I don't know what you mean. The person who's like, you know what? They sound pretty good. That was Stack. Yeah. Stack like this.

40:30Bill Simmons:Well, ironically, Stack gets bit, becomes vampire. Right. But I mean, I think that that appreciation, I mean, I think there's something true in that moment. Right. Which is, you know, so much of what is happening at that, at that, in that doorway is, is really about the complexity of the relationship between black art and white music or white musicians, which is like, when you got it, you got it. We can't, you cannot be denied. Well, there's a third theme that we're going to get to right after we take this break.

41:09Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Prime. Sure, we're called the rewatchables. And yeah, we usually rewatch movies obsessively. But every now and then we trade screenplays for e-books. Some moments just call for it. Like when the credits roll and you're still in movie mode, but your watch list is empty. Or when everyone says the original story is better than the movie and you got to see what the hype's about. Prime gives you access to a whole library of free e-books so you can swap the re-watch for a reread or try something new. Free e-books library. It's on Prime. So the third theme of this movie that I had written down was something Stack says after he becomes a vampire.

41:48Bill Simmons:Because we're talking about the vampires trying to seduce everybody in the juke. Stack's telling his brother, no, it's better this way. You should come this way. and then he says we was never going to be free. Yep. Which is the third theme looming around this. Like, hey, maybe this is actually a better life for everybody here in the 1930s. Which is the most, there's just the darkest aspect It's about as dark as you get. Yeah. Yeah. When you look at what those two brothers had done to find their freedom, when you look at where they had gone, they had gone to fight enemies abroad, They had gone to be gangsters up north.

42:28They had gone everywhere trying to search for whatever it is that they did not grow up with, whether it was safety from their father, whether it was respecting their community, whether it was love. One man couldn't love his woman because she was too righteous. The other man couldn't love his woman because she was too white. so it whatever they were looking for and they were going out to find it they came right back home and still had to deal with all the accrued interests of the horror that waited for them well

43:08Bill Simmons:and by the way they were gonna die the next morning yeah the guy was gonna those guys were coming back to kill them and clean the floors i got a nitpick there okay yeah i i think i i might share your net yeah i got a nitpick um but but nonetheless writ large the the knit aside that i think i probably share i can't wait to hear what it is um this it's so crazy this movie is as popular as it is because it is a full-scale comprehensive tragedy and no matter like everybody is trapped in their circumstances all the options suck the the cosmos of the of this of the jim crow delta means that there was no way that any sort of white power structure was going to allow this club to stand, right?

44:01And I just, even once you get to that post-credit sequence, which is essentially buddy guy as old Sammy, like sitting with the fact that he made it and you kind of can't believe i was like wow sammy made it but also the what he made was the blues he is now the descendant of because we haven't even talked about what delroy lindo represents in his strain of blues i feel like he's an overlooked that character is kind of overlooked in the larger i've not gonna be on this podcast we're not gonna me overlooking Del Rey Lindo's performance. It's the best performance in the movie to me. Holy shit. And that's not taking anything away from Mike, but...

44:50You just did. You literally took something away from him. No, because Mike has a lot more to do with this movie. It's his best performance performance. I'll tell you something else. I wonder... So... The movie is a tragedy. Everybody dies. Everybody gets fucked up. The child's daughter is an orphan. Like, all of those people in there died. They have families out there. The movie is a profound tragedy. there's nothing but blood left the only people that are left are Stack and Mary and I have not been able to understand what we are supposed to take from that because like Stack comes back and he is now I don't want to get too deep into this but I was thinking about this they didn't get dressed like that by accident.

45:38Stack comes back and now Stack is a vampire version of actual black experiences and expressions from the past. Now, he got the big Coogee sweater and the whole nine. She's got door knockers.

45:55Bill Simmons:I thought it was literally Radio Raheem. He has the stuff on his knuckles. But what I'm saying is, in that situation, he's there. If I was to look at that in my most Galaxy brain away that character represents what we had to give up which is literally the sun like we had to give up the sun we had to exist in the night now all he's got he's decorated he's ornate he is going to live he has he has survived as something lesser and more grotesque not human not human than what the people around him were and that when i saw that because when at the end. But he says it though. I'm happy Stack is alive.

46:43Bill Simmons:He says it was the happiest day of his life. Yeah. But it was 60 years ago. He's smiling when he says, it's the last time my brother, it's the last time I saw my brother and it's the last time I saw the son. And I'm like, fuck. But he's happy. And I'm happy he's alive, even though he's lesser than human than what he was before. There were compromises made. I have been thinking about, the only thing I really think about with this movie in terms of what it means and where it could go i don't know how committed to intellectual property proliferation ryan kugler is he's definitely a master at reinterpreting other people's ip but i don't know if there's going to be like a sinners four if we're headed that direction so i've got plenty of time to think about what is going on in that sequence and the third time I watched it you know what I thought of?

47:37The bridge from They Won't Go When I Go the Stevie Wonder song

47:46People sin in just for fun they will never see the sun they won't even show their faces for them there is no room for the hopeless sinner who will take more than he will oh my god I'm gonna start crying Oh no He got Wesley

48:02Bill Simmons:He got through Brokeback Mountain without crying I was gonna cry They got Wesley For they will never show their faces For them there is no For there is no room for the hopeless sinner Who will take more than he will give He will give He will give He ain't hardly gonna give And it's Stevie like Going from up here To down here from the mountain to the valley to acknowledge that there are these people who have been forsaken or have forsook. And every time I, the three times I have seen this sequence with Smoke and what's her face, the Hailey Steinfeld character as these vampires. Stack to me. Stack, sorry.

48:57and they're talking to this old man who we know we've experienced as a younger person I'm hearing this I'm hearing that song who chooses death rather than be one of them I hear I hear the they won't go when I go that's literally true because these people are never going to go they will live forever and they will never see the sun S-O-N or S-U-N right

49:24Bill Simmons:When we saw the movie The movie ends With Michael B. Jordan The second twin dying Right and he's going to where Annie is With the baby and the credits came up And I started to get up and Van's like Hold on hold on And I'm like what do you mean And then that whole other scene came in Not only is it the best scene in the movie I think it's one of my favorite scenes Me too I just couldn't believe how good it was And each time I watch it it gets better and I just can't believe the choice of starting the credits but then skipping ahead was so interesting that they did that and not do the fast forward to 1992 or something to keep you in it's it's almost like an easter egg but it's so much better than an easter egg and uh no it's a coda it's an epilogue I just I can't believe they landed the plane on that it probably shouldn't have worked but not only did it work it was it's the it puts it brings the whole movie together in the best way and also like that buddy guy and just like i just can't believe they pulled that off they were saying he's 88 years old they had to film for like 14 hours they're in like the you know it's fucking hot and he just was there banging it out and that's going to become a big part of his legacy is where does that sound because i think this movie is going to endure in its own way you know and he's that he's so crucial to that part oh yeah well the idea that that person i just kept wondering because you know the blues song like i lied to you is not in any way a 1930s anything right yeah the delray lindo character is the the embodiment of like the delta blues and and sammy is something else preacher boy is is a completely like i would say 1980s oriented blues, right?

51:13Like a Robert Cray kind of blues musician. Like late buddy guy. The type of guy, he wants his blues to take him everywhere. Yeltsin Slim wants to stay right there at the same club for the next 20 years. Preacher Boy wants that guitar to take him everywhere. It's a little bit more accessible. Right. And I, you know, but what do they say when they find old Sammy in that club that night? Oh man, this electric shit. I don't know about that. We like the old shit. Well, I bet y 'all would. Stands to reason. We've got to keep moving.

51:48Bill Simmons:Michael B. Jordan. Fruitvale 2013. Creed. Black Panther. Panther 2. Sinners. He needed this one. Interesting. That's our guy. He needed a great performance and a great movie. I think for the catalog. I just think he's... You know, he's not 40 yet. I think the talent's there. He's been in our lives the entire century, dating back to The Wire and Hardball and Friday Night Lights. And I said this to Van when we did the video about it the last time. I didn't 100 % know he had this one in him. I think there's stuff he's doing in this movie, and I feel like Wesley's going to zag on this. There's stuff he's doing in the movie that I didn't think he could do.

52:36Bill Simmons:First of all, to play twins, I just think is like a whole other level of hard acting I don't like to be able to just do that on a set every day I felt like the twins were slightly different in ways that the more I watch the movie I can recognize them and I just think there's a presence with him he nails the dialect there's a physicality in him it's like all the stuff he's good at and it's just like perfect for him and I was just really happy for him because I like him it's a movie star role and so it he needed it insofar every actor that's going to be a movie star needs one just like that. It's a movie star role.

53:17It's a movie where if that character doesn't work, if those characters don't work, you don't have a movie.

53:23Bill Simmons:It's different. And by the way, this is the movie we always wanted Will Smith to make, right? During his entire prime? Like something that actually really said something? Will was a different kind of movie star role? It's a different thing though, because Will Smith can do He's a differently charismatic I know, but I think Will Smith thought like Ali would be his version of this movie and it just isn't. No, but he is like so many other things that I find. I don't know. I didn't mean to attack Will Smith, but you know what I mean? I hear what you mean. What I mean is this movie shows Mike gets to be a little sinister.

53:53He gets to be smooth. He gets to be vulnerable. What you're essentially talking about from my perspective is every movie star needs a film where they show their entire range of talents. like everything that they could do.

54:08Bill Simmons:It's kind of like Leo and Wolf of Wall Street, to be honest. Like he didn't need it, but he kind of needed it. Really? Yeah. Wolf of Wall Street? Yes. Interesting. At that particular moment in time, you think he needed it? Yeah, because that and The Revenant combined, I think raised him to just a different stratosphere. Yeah, but I think this is... And he was already doing great. This is slightly different because at the point at which Leo... He was already... Leonardo DiCaprio makes Wolf of Wall Street, he had done he'd done Django right like one of the weirdest performances nobody anybody's ever asked him to give I feel like he'd already he's already done enough conventional movie star work I'm just talking about a moment a specific moment in somebody's career when there's a shift and you can feel it and they've elevated in some way this to me well the additional tragedy here the extra narrative tragedy of this movie is that the reason that we're talking about whether Michael B.

55:09Jordan needed this part or needed this movie to work in some way is that there isn't a lot for him to be doing as a movie star right now anyway, right?

55:22Bill Simmons:Part of that was his fault though. He does two more Creed movies. He tried, like, it's funny because we talked about this when I did a part of them ten years ago about let's map out the next ten years. You gotta do a legal movie you gotta do buddy cop movie you gotta do your action movie so he did his revenge movie without remorse yeah he did the legal movie just mercy did fahrenheit 451 that was like his weird sort of science fictiony movie so he's checking the boxes but none of them yeah none of them really hit like this and this just but i don't think that's i just think that the industry is the industry was changing under his feet right right like the move those movies didn't not work because of him.

56:02I mean, just Mercy, I mean, I don't think the movie is great, but I mean, there's so many deep and moving things in that movie, like Rob Morgan and Jamie Foxx. I mean, you just need him. Michael B. Jordan, to me, is like a Robert Redford, right? He's not the greatest actor. He is extremely handsome and alluring. There's something about Michael B. Jordan that makes you want to know what else is going on in there. And every once in a while, some movie or some co-star will bring that out of him. It has to be brought out because he's not going to give it to you. Somebody's got to like lure it from him, which is why it's so interesting that he keeps working with Ryan Coogler, because that is the guy who can push Michael B.

56:49who seems to be able to push Michael B. Jordan into these really interesting zones of both as an actor and consequently, not that he's, not that he, I don't know if he knows he's a movie star, but he's got the thing that we want from a person that we would classify as a movie star. I was talking to somebody, I was talking to Kalika last night, and she was talking about F1. And she was just like, I don't know, I just like Brad Pitt. I just like watching Brad Pitt and stuff. Brad Pitt just goes, Damson is so beautiful and he's such a good actor but he's in a scene with Brad Pitt and you're looking at Brad Pitt and you're just going like, you know, whatever.

57:36Don't make jokes about my girl looking at Brad Pitt. It's okay. Really seems like she was looking at it. Dan seems fine with it. I was just looking out for you. I just see what you're doing over there. Watch out for Kalika. And she goes, Brad Pitt just has, I don't know. I said, do you know what he has? And she goes, what? I'm like, he has it. And there's really no way to really articulate it, but some people have it. Some actors have this thing to where you go, hey, I like this scene because this guy, this gal is in it. They have it. It doesn't matter what you're watching.

58:19Bill Simmons:I think you and I, this is the one thing we've talked about probably the most since I've gotten to know you in the last 14 years. It's how do you determine whether somebody has it or not? And Hollywood is trying to push it all the time, but it's like, you either have it or you don't. You can't make me think you have it. It's like with the NBA, like, who's the face of the NBA? You won't have to ask the question when that face makes it so... Yeah, we'll know when the face arrives. We'll know when that happens. And it's not Joseph Alexander, unfortunately. Okay, alright. We'll know when it arrives.

58:47It's Anthony. What are we doing here? There's one person. It's Anthony Edwards. Hopefully Anthony Edwards. He definitely has it. Mike has it. Yep. But even when you have that. This is important. Even when you have that, you need a very flavorful, creative gumbo. And you need the director or the creative that knows how to utilize it. And there have been very few guys that have been able to get there without somebody going, hmm. I know which role this guy needs. Does Tom Cruise need to smile his way through a movie or is it your homie? Is that my briefcase? And so with Mike is, I mean, but but but either one of them, right.

59:37Both of those scenes, like Maverick smiling bright in 1986 or whatever, you go, wow. But at the same time, the guy in Collateral, he's magnetic in the same way. Mike, this was the role for him to display the fact that he is a magnetic, unforgettable screen talent. And he brings it every single time. It's one of the first times.

1:00:03Bill Simmons:De Niro and Scorsese is a good example of this, right? I think De Niro happens anyway. But he catches Scorsese at the perfect point of his life. Right. And that elevates it. I think, though, there's a couple things, right? I mean, what we talk about when we talk about both the it and the star maintenance is at bats, right? Yeah. How many times do you get to go up to the plate and, like, swing at some pitches? And increasingly now, people's batting averages are based on way fewer at bats. And so when you get up to the plate now, it really matters a lot more how good your swing is. And I just don't think that Michael B.

1:00:49Jordan has had enough at bats. I mean, I've been saying, and I still kind of feel this way. Like, like, I don't have enough data. I still don't feel like, well, no, I mean, I think that, but, but the question is what happens next? but he's still right he's still 38 39 yeah i think he's under 40 still so this is gonna be

1:01:11Bill Simmons:this should be the peak of his career starting right now i just gotta say we are talking about we i feel like we're talking about this as though it's like 1999 or even 2010 what like if if the movie isn't going to win him an academy award or it's not gonna make 450 million at the North American box office in two and a half months. That middle zone where the movie star is tested and the movie stardom is given a workout, that doesn't exist. Do we think he can win an Oscar for this? No. I think he'll be nominated. He'll definitely be nominated. I think he could be nominated. But no, I don't. A nomination?

1:01:58I would bet anything he gets nominated. I'll bet that right now. I don't disagree. Let me tell you something. You better get nominated. If you guys think 1992 out here was bad. I mean, it's like... He better get nominated. I mean, that's the way that I've been thinking about this.

1:02:21Bill Simmons:No, this movie is going to... This movie will win for score. And we haven't even seen five months of movies. But it will win for score. The news here is... What are we talking about? There's like 20 movies left to come out? And a lot of great movies too. There have been some really good movies. But what I'm saying is that... He'll probably get nominated. But that right there is just so insanely important for him and his career. We go back and we talk about Ali. Ali was not what Will would have thought that it would have been from the standpoint of the quality of the movie. I like it. We're doing another rewatch at some point.

1:03:00We both like it. Okay, I like it. I get that people, for whatever reason, it didn't quite get there. I like the movie. I've always liked the movie. It tried to do too much. But when you saw... There's some great stuff in that. Great, great, great sequences. When you saw Will Smith nominated for an Academy Award, it was like, oh, okay. I didn't know that was a thing. It was a thing. It was a big deal for his career that him and Michael Mann got together and made a movie that rose to the critical reception to where he could have been nominated for.

1:03:30Bill Simmons:Well, he should have gotten nominated for Six Degrees of Separation. He definitely should have gotten nominated for it. You know who else has been nominated? Ryan Coogler. Yeah. 39 years old. There's a class of directors. I wanted to throw this at Wesley. Coogler, Chazelle, Greta Gerwig, Chloe Zhao, Sean Baker, Robert Eggers, Ari Aster, maybe the Safdies. I don't know how you feel about that. There's no reason to kick them out of the club. Cord is going to... Cord's only made one movie, but I think he's... Jordan Peele? Jordan Peele's in this group. Well, he's older. Jordan Peele's 46. Oh, I see.

1:04:09Bill Simmons:Under 40. These are all late 30s. Cord's 43. Yeah, these are late 30s, early 40s. But he just made his first movie. you could shoehorn jordan in that too even though he's 46 i'd say trey schultz is probably in this conversation but it's right bigger point is we have like a real class of creatives that i don't feel like you know we talk about all the 70s you romanticize like these different eras of directors i think it exists now but again like we're still like well there's two things happening right like I mean, Coogler even if you look at the crazy thing about this movie is look at what this man has done.

1:04:47Like, he is, from the standpoint of what this town cares about, like, he's made these people so much money. No, he the man. He owns some Spielberg shit, though. Right. This is what I'm talking about, right?

1:05:00Bill Simmons:He's probably the best commercial director we've had in a while. And just all of these hits in a row, just all of this money, they're printing money off him. He hasn't missed yet. Yeah. He hasn't missed yet. And I don't think that people think of him as a person who hasn't missed yet. No, they should. I think that the way we've been talking about this movie, it proves it. Yeah. Right? I think that one thing that's really important here, and this is kind of both the point and beside the point, this movie came out in the spring. a dusty time traditionally anyway for movie releases it comes out in the spring as a big hit it's got ideas but it's not a movie that was being sold as being an ideas movie it was sold as a vampire movie that you had to wait an hour to get the vampires and people stayed and then they kept going back I do think there was a buzz to it leading up to it I think Coogler reached a point where it's like Coogler is a vampire movie my point is not that they were selling us Michael B.

1:06:00Jordan in a tank top so like I'm in line But the point The point is Why are we pretending that what's happening isn't happening The movie is Filled with gorgeous People Beautiful people They're beautiful people in the movie You're giving us Miles and Michael I didn't even know Miles could act

1:06:26Bill Simmons:I don't think anyone knew Miles could act As a musician He wasn't unknown to me. Oh, look at Wesley fucking dropping these chops. I know about Miles. He was on my blues redder board. Anyway, I feel like this movie was advertising something to me that was very appealing and not that hard to understand. Michael B. Jordan probably killing a bunch of vampires or zombies. What's funny is the movie was so good you forgot about the vampire part the first time you're watching it. for 40 plus minutes. And then when we finally have a vampire, it's like, oh shit, I forgot. We talked about this when we talked about the film before a little bit, but there was one thing where I realized, obviously, because me and Sean were going crazy over this.

1:07:17When Coogler was able to successfully give a 10 minute dissertation on how the film should be watched, why he shot it in 7D or IMAX or whatever, list off all the and that bitch got to like 15 million views i watched every second of a 10 minute video about a director telling me the best way to watch his movie that was fantasy's version

1:07:46Bill Simmons:of a diddy freak off he's just had he's covered in baby oil watching it just going up dressed it all way oh my god so i'm like i'm like oh this shit different and by the way he is not in any way giving the audience a break. This is the thing that I like about what he does. Now, he's not giving you a break. He's making you come to these ideas, these heady ideas, because they're too delicious for you to pass up on. He's saying, look, shoot it like this. This is 5 Perf. This is 15. This is this. This is that. This is the different things. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And people went for it. That made people more excited to go see the movie in the more expensive format.

1:08:29in the format that was going to drive the box off as a movie up.

1:08:33Bill Simmons:It's incredibly filmed and directed. They film it for IMAX. The famous one-shot scene with Sammy Song, they couldn't actually, with the IMAX, they couldn't actually just do the Scorsese nightclub one-shot all the way through because the cameras, so they had to somehow stitch it together and make it seem like a one-shot. But it was all stuff designed for this has to look as cool as fucking It still feels panoramic anyway. It's amazing. I want to come back to what I was saying about the directors and what has changed. I feel like the industry is... We are now more reliant. This industry is now more reliant on people that it sort of took for granted for years and years to give it credibility, which is basically our tour of filmmakers, right?

1:09:20Like, these people are now more important than they ever were to some studio's bottom line.

1:09:26Bill Simmons:So you want Joel Schumacher to start making movies again? Well, listen, if... He's going to come back. He's one of the vampires. But I mean, I do think for as much as, for as bad as the Joel Schumacher movie was as a movie, he really understood something about American popular culture, right? He understood what a movie star could do. He spoke to Van and I. I liked it. 8mm? 2? 8mm? I mean, this is what I'm saying. Like, I mean, we don't have a Joel Schumacher now. We don't have anything like a Joel Schumacher. What a luxury to not like a Joel Schumacher movie now. We're behind schedule, so I got to move to Preacher Boy quick.

1:10:09Sammy Moore, who learns how to please woman from Stack.

1:10:13Bill Simmons:There you go. He learns how to stand up for himself from Smoke. He learns how cruel the world could be from Delta Slim. And he learns that religion doesn't necessarily make you a good person. from Remick. He takes all of these lessons, has a great blues career, opens a club called Perlines, has some scratches on his face, but other than that, goes through, and I guess we're supposed to believe he was one of the best blues musicians. Yeah. That's how they're setting it up, right? Yeah. He's one of the guys, but he's played by Miles Caton, who I knew nothing about when I saw this movie. I had no idea of the backstory.

1:10:52Bill Simmons:It's his first movie ever. kugler and his casting director get audition tapes from all over the world because he's like this movie fails unless i find the right person and they're just everyone's sending him stuff and miles sent him something he was like 18 didn't kugler didn't know he's a child prodigy um son of a gospel singer performing his whole you know life basically but hadn't wasn't famous and Cougar knew right away this is it. 20 years from now, this might be more of a Miles Cate movie than we're discussing now. If he becomes like... I guess the question is, what's the ceiling for this dude?

1:11:31Bill Simmons:Because he's fucking awesome in this movie. I don't know what happens with him. I don't have to keep beating this drum, but what are the moves... Give him the work. Let the screenplay... Open the screenplay floodgate and let him... But maybe this is the only time he acts in a movie. I don't, like, something will happen to him. I just don't know what it's going to be. I'll tell you this. Anytime Miles Keaton's coming to town, the ticket's been bought. You know what I mean? Because if you watch him actually in concert, like, he's, you know, he tones it down for Preacher Boy. But he's got, he's a charismatic performer.

1:12:04Bill Simmons:Yeah. They don't make him like this. They stopped making him like this 50 years ago. I don't know where he came from. Stopped making him like this. Well, I'm saying he's out of three other eras. 50 years ago? They stopped making such a dick. So, okay, so there is the stinger, the mid credits, and then there's the stinger. And the stinger, he just picks up his guitar, and he starts singing. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? I thought they were dubbing his voice the first time I saw it. I was like, how is this voice coming out of this kid? Did you, like, the look on Stack's face when he had never heard Preacher Boy's show?

1:12:45In the car. In the car. In the car. That's the same way that I felt. And by the way, you can get somebody in there to sing them songs. Had he had a lot of acting before this?

1:12:57Bill Simmons:Never. No. That is phenomenal. Phenomenal performance. And I'm glad you mentioned that because that's my favorite moment in this whole movie. in that final scene when he's talking about when he's talking about preacher boy's voice and they have the flashback of him hearing it in the car and now it cuts back and he's the vampire in 1992 and it's just it's just really good it's just kugler's just good at stuff yeah i mean but that moment there there are those two moments there are two really well we can talk about it when we Yeah, all right, we'll keep going. Ludwig Coranson. I think that's how you say it.

1:13:32Bill Simmons:Goranson. Ludwig Goranson? Goranson. I don't know, I'm going to mess it up. He's already won two Oscars. Yeah. He did Creed, Black Panther, Tenet, Oppenheimer, Sinners. He's doing The Odyssey. So when you're Ryan Kugler's guy and Chris Nolan's guy. Yeah, you're the man. It's a good place to be. Ryan and Chris seem like they have a good relationship. You know, I first heard him. He was... Very instrumental on one of my favorite albums of 2010, which was... Was it Childish Gambino? Yeah. Because the internet. Yeah. Oh. Childish Gambino. When Donald was still finding himself as a musician, and he drops this weird, brilliant, avant-garde, really sort of masterpiece.

1:14:23And that's when I first heard of Lil' Wig. I didn't even realize he was as into the movie stuff as he was until about three years ago. I'd only known. Well, I mean, I guess I did. Three or four years ago. He's basically like New Wave John Williams. Yeah, he's like, yeah. The dots between the Donald Glover, the Childish Gambino stuff and the movie stuff. Yeah. Because there's such different, I mean, these two worlds have, I mean, you know, to the ear have nothing to do with each other, right?

1:14:50Bill Simmons:And he got a lot of direction from Coogler because Coogler had all these sounds in his head for the scenes and one of them was he kept thinking of metallica and he wanted like a certain certain couple moments in the movies to kind of kick in almost like a metallica song would so they figured all of it out it's so interesting the way rock music ideas figure in to how we're supposed to understand tragedy and horror in this movie yeah and i i think it's such a bold choice because it's so not explicitly, those chords aren't black rock and roll chords. Those chords are metal chords, right? I mean, you can do a tree that gets you from Black Sabbath to the Delta Blues.

1:15:44But those chords themselves, when you're just kind of banging them out like that, I mean, they're not banged out, but they're essentially familiar from another zone of American popular music, right? Or, you know, just popular music in general. And they're used here in this world of exploitation, like forced collaboration. the way that different musical styles are functioning here is really kind of hard to sort of map out and, and process because they're just kind of presented and you, I'm still not sure for instance, what to make of the Irish jig that happens in the middle of the movie that turns into kind of like a grungy mosh pit situation where like really what we're looking at is a, is a kind of nirvana concert, honestly.

1:16:42And the way that the turned club goers who are now Remick acolytes have essentially become moshers alongside this guy, while also, you know... Like Mimiscuit? Well, I mean, actually, that's not wrong. But I think, first of all, I love that scene. I think two things are happening. One, there. One, Remick has his own culture. That's the first thing. It's not devoid of culture. No, it's definitely cultural. Yeah, like he has his own culture. And number two, once they are in with him, they've completely lost any autonomy or objectivity. They are loving everything that he is doing. He is the best dancer they have ever seen.

1:17:36He is the best singer that they have ever seen. Like, the people who they were just before they got bit are completely gone. Like, all the soul that they had, all the, just their culture, their outlook, everything is gone. They are just, the only way to be close to him is complete, uncompromising worship and oneness. He will accept nothing. Well, you know what's really interesting? there's that moment where the last person i think we see get turned is the omar benson miller character who was supposed to be watching the door and keeping everybody from you know he didn't know he was keeping vampires out but if he hadn't going to take that piss this this might not happen but when he gets turned there's this the only time we see this happened in the movie.

1:18:33He's prone on the ground and he sits up and he goes like he just got woke. And it is

1:18:47Bill Simmons:Peabody Pulitzer. Just Peabody Pulitzer moment. It should be a category. Wesley's Peabody Pulitzer moment. Peabody Pulitzer moment. Anyway, the point is Because like that to me is is obvious. It's deep, but also opening up this other line of argument about blackness. What people what freedom looks like. Right. Because at this point, Bramick has made his pitch. Right. You got to join us over here. We are. We are about love and peace and freedom. And, you know, to paraphrase our current president, when he was talking to try to get black people to come vote for blacks and Latinos to come vote for him.

1:19:34He's like, what do y 'all got to lose? You can't do worse. The Klan's about to come get you. I mean, come join us in living death. It's better over here than whatever's about to happen to y 'all tomorrow. Because he would have known about this too. He turned to Klansmen, one of the mentors to show up at the club. He tells them, he goes that motherfucker is his uncle. This whole place is a tomb anyway. This is a big funeral. You guys, you don't have a future here. Your only future is with me. You're precisely right. A couple actors we have to mention quick.

1:20:10Bill Simmons:Haley Steinfeld. Yeah. Josh Allen's wife. Oh, that's right. He got married real quick after this movie. He married her real quick. He liked it that fast. He didn't want... Did they speed it up? Did they change the date? She was immersed in a new audience there. Yeah. He saw her with Michael B one time and was like, we need to get married fast. There's not a lot of people I can lose my future wife to, but there's one. MBJ. She's great. I've always liked her. Always had stock. Ridiculously talented. I love that just 17. I thought she was really good in that movie, but she's just always been good.

1:20:52Bill Simmons:I love her vibe, everything. I love how she lays back in the last scene when they catch up with Sammy. Oh, yeah. Because she doesn't have any lines, but she's just all presence. She's just all presence, and it actually works. But I think this movie's a huge win for her. I gotta say, when she gets off the, you know, I mean, most rewatchable scene, when she gets off the train, her first scene, she gets off the train, she comes over, Sammy sees her coming, and I guess Smoke sees, or Stack sees that he's there that she's there and the kid's like yo what are you and she walks up and she's like so you gonna fuck me and then never call me like you know I have the line what is it I heard you loud and clear but then you stuck your tongue in my coos and fucked me so hard I figured you'd change your mind yeah I mean and talk about the blues yeah I mean coming in ah She delivered that motherfucker.

1:22:00There is a way she, like, I'm sorry, I hate to put it this way. If you give that line to Kim Basinger, who I could have believed would take a part like this once upon a time and we would just accept it.

1:22:11Bill Simmons:She doesn't nail it. She doesn't, like... Van, go ahead. This person lives in the line. Want to put her in? White girl Hall of Fame? Yeah. No, okay, so... But complicated. Because you know this, right? we found out some things about her so what half why are you putting it like that because I'm trying to break the news to Bill oh okay you just lost one you lost one what did we find out what is it her grandfather is black or half black or something like that her father there's something there I'll cancel the ceremony well now you gotta have a different ceremony she was great Delroy Lindo I almost did this as my hottest take is it possible the two greatest roles of his career have happened in his late 60s early 70s are you thinking about the Spike Lee movie yeah interesting yeah interesting whether you like that movie or not I do not it's an awesome part I was looking back at all of the parts he's played trying to figure out what his best parts were.

1:23:24Bill Simmons:So we got West Indy and Archie, which I love. He's been a lot of stuff over the years. Clockers. Clockers is a great role from him. You remember Clockers, right? The dad. That's why I didn't do his hardest take. I couldn't carry it. In Crooklyn. But this one was Delta Slim's pretty great. Yes. Get Shorty. That's one of the good Delroy Lindo. Sexy Delroy. That's really good Delroy. what's the point of being in LA if you're not in the movie business I love Get Shorty have you not done Get Shorty yet rewatchable shit haven't done that one yet so good could be an Elmore Leonard month weirdly timeless too strangely but the thing I love about this performance is that it is funny he seems to be completely unashamed of two of the grossest lines in the movie most ridiculous lines in the movie anyway um and but he gives the the most powerful one of the more powerful moments in the movie is the speech after they pick him up he's recruited basically to perform in the club because he's he's delta royalty yeah everybody knows who he is need a bit the juke yeah and they're there it's it's it's sammy what's his character's name again delta slam and and Smoke Stack Stack They're in the car together And he gives a speech about Essentially That aligns the blues With Lynching essentially And There's a way In which He delivers that Tells a story About Somebody who got lynched Essentially I'll cut it short But there The way that Delroy Lindo Delivers it it kind of, it is its own blues.

1:25:18It stands in for the development of a history of an aspect of this music, but not the whole music. Because one, another thing I love about this movie is that it is the, it is blues as a cultural experience, as experienced by people who dance to danced to this music, because this was dance music for us. Right. And it was a whole life of joy and, and, and excitement and, and just jubilation. It wasn't just my baby left me and I don't know what I'm going to do. This was club music. And I think that the story that he tells in that car is a really crystal clear allegory or parable for how the music as an art, how a wing of the music as a sort of cultural experience and the expression of a circumstance comes to be.

1:26:19You almost don't really, if you never heard another song in this movie, you'd be okay because that story as delivered by Delroy Lindo is so powerful. And I believe, I can't remember now. Does he play? I think he sings a little bit at the end of the speech. Yeah, in the car. Well, he's banging on the car door. With his harmonica. I mean, that is a great scene.

1:26:49Bill Simmons:He's one of those guys when he pops in the movie, you're just happy to see him. Yep. Say hey. Yep. Jack O 'Connell. Hmm. This is a really big movie for him. And I think he gets nominated too. Interesting. I think it's going to be, the nomination is going to be interesting for this movie. Because we didn't even talk about Annie yet. Because she's also really good. Oh, she is a force. William Wasako. She's like, she is, she's, of all the characters in all the movies that legitimately reminded me of the women that I grew up around, this was the one. Like, you know, my mother and other people or my sister who do practitioners.

1:27:37I don't know if you knew that.

1:27:38Bill Simmons:we've discussed. Right. They do root work. I was waiting for Van to dive into Annie. Yeah, like... Figured you had some Annie's in your life. Yeah, I was waiting to dive into Annie, too. And so what I'm saying is, like, and there's something else about this. Like, that is a beautiful, sexy woman. I mean... And Hollywood has turned their back on the brilliant beauty of a black woman in, I don't want to say her natural form, because black women are natural and beautiful in all different types of way. But that type of black women, we love them. And when a lot of people were like, you know, when I first saw her and Smoke in that scene together, I heard some people, some people on the line have been like, like, I thought that that was like Smoke's mom.

1:28:38I saw some people saying that. Yeah, that's, you've been poisoned by the movie. Not the uninitiated. You've been brainwashed by Hollywood. Like right away, you could see that a man like that in that situation had a woman like that. And really, she grounds his character. look at small things she makes his performance more interesting absolutely look at small things in the movie like you would think that the movie would be dripping with massage noir if you're talking about male and female dynamics in the movie right when Remick is at when Cornbread is at the door and he is talking to Smoke she goes don't talk to him talk to me and Smoke doesn't interrupt her Smoke doesn't get in the way whenever Annie speaks, Smoke knows that she is speaking with love and wisdom and authority and he defers to that and he is accepting and appreciative of that just very authentic and beautiful and you know something else I'll say about the movie is the love story in the movie that everybody was talking about was or the the coupling of the movie that everyone was talking about was the coupling between um stack and mary which has its own that's a that's a whole other hollywood history in the movie american history but when the the the relationship that even from a chemistry standpoint that grounded this movie to me was Smoke and Annie.

1:30:26I mean, just thinking about, just think about, I would, I mean, I don't know. This is probably answerable if you just called these three people up on the phone. But, I mean, Kugler knows the whole history of, like, large black women in Hollywood. What a woman who is built like Annie would be doing in a movie because we have a hundred years of that archetype doing that work often to the often for the laughter of an audience. Um, I mean, the, the, the limitations placed on black women to only do service work, um, because they were dark skin because they were full figured, um, thick women had one job in the movies and it was to serve a white person in a uniform or to do that work in some other guys, but essentially you're doing service work.

1:31:30And here, that club, she is running that club. She is trying to heal from a terrible thing that happened to her. The thing that I love about this performance is it's capacious enough to sort of convey the authority, but also the hurt, the vulnerability she's the person who knows the entire she knows what's going to happen and she's like you know what don't turn me kill me right i'd i'd the character is like i'd rather

1:32:00Bill Simmons:die but there's something this was my son's biggest nitpick with the movie was he didn't understand how annie knew everything right away like how she knew immediately oh these are vampires and I was like, no, no, no, that's there are people like this. She fucking knows shit. You just have to go with it, Ben. She's like, come on. She would know that right away that this is... I was like, yes, yes, she would. But this is my annoying 17-year-old. Just real quick, my dad my dad my dad would argue with my mom to a point and then he would just leave the house and I'd be like, yo, where you at? He'd be like, son, What you don't understand is that your mama and your grandmama is some hoodoers.

1:32:50And I ain't about to stand here. I don't want no hacks. For the next four hours and get hoodoed by these women over no cable TV. Like, you'd be so on edge about it. He'd be like, did you walk outside and see cracked eggshells all over the front? He's like, that was for me. Your mama trying to hoodoo me. and he would be going for like a day or two. So, but when you had a question about, you know, if you were scared or like, if you would, you would go to them, you would go to these women and they would give you spiritual and energetic answers. And we see her, like there's a kid who's like, when he gets to her for the first time, there's some kids whose parents, whose mother basically sent the kid over to Annie's to like, yeah.

1:33:40Bill Simmons:Yep. She's great. $100 million budget for this movie. It made$366 million and counting. Second highest grossing original horror. Is that North America or globally? That's got to be globally. That's globally. Second highest grossing original horror film domestically. Behind the Sixth Sense. Oh, interesting. Number two of all time. Was the Sixth Sense rated R? It was, right? Was it? Yeah, it had to be. Bruce Willis was alive in the end. Spoiler. Wow, we're still doing that, huh? Roger Ebert has been long gone. Do you want to hear chat GBTs? Oh, no, no, come on! We ain't about to replace Roger Ebert with chat GBT.

1:34:29Bill Simmons:Do you want to know what chat GBT thinks Roger Ebert would have said or no? I'm into it. Alright, let's try it. If Roger Ebert had reviewed Sinners, his review would have likely been a bold, heartfelt appraisal, blending admiration for its audacity with a critical eye for its unruly ambition. Expect something like three and a half to three and three, four stars. In true Ebert form, Sinners dazzles and overwhelms. It's a movie you must see for its sound and energy and invention. Go in, ready for the ride. Wow. I thought a little Roger Ebert. A little bit. Shout out to ChatGBT. And the AI that's going to take over all of us.

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1:36:52Bill Simmons:Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla. Smooth caramel, maybe. Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Most rewatchable scene. Smoke goes downtown, shoots a thief, makes a deal. We talked about the two sides. All of that is mesmerizing. Yeah, I like that. The train scene we already talked about. Preacher Boy meets Perlene. Haley comes in. Comes in hot. I like that whole, this doesn't happen in movies all the time, when the hero, the girl from the past, and they pop in, and just when you see the life sink from their body for a second, they're like, oh boy, this is going to be good.

1:37:43Oh, all right.

1:37:44Bill Simmons:I'll put my seatbelt on for this. Something's happening. Something interesting about that scene. First of all, when they're introducing both of those guys, it's essentially what these two scenes are. They introduce Smoke with his gun. They introduce Stack with his mouth because that's each person's respective superpower. smoke is your enforcer and your protector stack is your smooth talker you think that stack is afraid of annie because she's white but that's not really why he is afraid not annie oh excuse mary mary mary you think that stack is afraid of mary because she's white but that's not really why he's afraid of her he's afraid of her because he's in love with her and he doesn't want to have to confront the feelings that he has for her and the fact that he abandoned her and use the fact that she was white oh interesting like the the fact that he ran out and used the fact that they couldn't have what they were supposed to have as the reason why he did it and that becomes very very very apparent as the movie goes on and as she continuously pokes and prods him about the fact that you don't have to be scared you don't have to be scared you don't have to be scared and it starts right there yeah i mean interesting um we didn't mention it's a quick one and the research on it's more interesting but when we first see the twins and they do the cigarette trick that was apparently very complicated which all but it could be it's a borderline mini scene for most rewatchable but the the science of having stack light the smoke for and then doing the lighters but having one actor do that and make it seem like it was two was like the hardest thing they had to do the entire movie wow yeah i'll go through that in a second uh split screen technology still has a it's still hard to do it it's it's the best it's ever been but really hard vampire rope-a-dope poor bert never had a chance um when uh when i was vampire robert when remick when he uh when he eats a couple.

1:39:55Bill Simmons:I'm giving this a special okay motherfucker award for the exact moment when the movie goes up a notch. Oh, when Remick drops out? Yeah, when he takes out the two vampires. Sammy Sinks. This is the best scene in the movie, other than the ending, for me. This is my second, my number two most rewatchable. I want to know what Wesley thinks about that particular scene. This whole scene, when they bring in just the way it's shot, the camera angles, everything, I think it's just a mesmerizing five minutes. Still incredibly polarizing. It's still very polarizing. I just think it's incredibly rewatchable to watch, but I also understand the cases against it, so go ahead.

1:40:36I just wanted the whole song uninterrupted by the weight of the future and the past. I just didn't... I didn't... That sequence is so up my alley that is my entire like intellectual project right yeah um one of the things i care most about as a critic and for me not to like it something is going wrong didn't like it no i didn't first of all interesting even with how inventive it was to say it for the first for the fourth time in this conversation i love that song right yeah i was falling in love with that song and that like the performance of the song and just the way it's shot. And then all of a sudden, it's the strange, it's always going to be one of the strangest things, even when I've seen this movie 10 times, which is when the twerking starts, who's first?

1:41:32Is it the twerker? No, it's the first one. It's the guitar player. It's the guitar player. It's the not, it's the not, it's the guy who's dressed like Bootsy, but he's playing the electric guitar. And you're just like, wait, what is that? 103 ,000? What is going on right now? It's all the ghosts from the past and present, Wesley. Why are you explaining? Okay, keep explaining it to me. I think that the thing that I just, it did not work as a sequence to me. The argument is beautiful. I love the argument. You like what it's trying to say. I love the thing that it's arguing for and asserting is definitely true and powerful about this particular person and this particular piece of music, I am curious about why this song, Love It As I Do, is the thing that does the unlocking.

1:42:23You almost convinced me why earlier. But I don't know. It just didn't. It just, I'm one of the people who just found it to be excessive. Typical fucking internet guy. Peabody Pulitzer. Peabody Pulitzer, now on Reddit. An anonymous name.

1:42:39Bill Simmons:Killin' Ryan Coogler. The breadth of this history that it, that is being conjured up in this scene is both generous, but also kind of confusing. You know, Chinese folk singers, the amount of African artists that we're singing, there's, it's generous to a fault in some way. But I also, there's a part of me that's like, oh, Wesley, calm down. Just, this is a beautiful thing. Do you like watching it though? It is arguing for folkloric timelessness. But what about the visual of it, though? I like when the fucking roof comes off. And then landing on the vampire. I just thought it was so cool. It's too much.

1:43:26Because what happens? What world are we in at this point? Once the club burns down. So we're in cougars. I just want to cook for four minutes. So I have two thoughts. That's the first thought. And the second thought is that it's supposed to be the scene where the movie becomes a supernatural fable. kind of it's earlier where Rimmick drops out of the sky but the movie, the reason why that scene was so fantastical maybe is because that's the point that the movie becomes a supernatural fable the vampires are woken up and then the second thing I'll say is this

1:43:58Bill Simmons:you need it because it's the we now move into the different part of the movie where now we're like things are going to get fucking crazy I think my literal brain though a lot of people felt it this way by the way but I think from also a philosophical standpoint the movie means something from the creative standpoint, which that scene just means I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want to do. That's fair. Everything in this movie is exactly the way I wanted it. If you thought the movie was too on the nose with some of the messages, I'm sorry. If you thought the movie was too on the nose with this, I mean, he kills the Klan at the end.

1:44:35Actually, that scene to me seems a little bit more superfluous. I love the Klan murder. I like it a lot. I love watching it. Why are you pointing the bill? But that seems like a scene that was just kind of like, okay, this happens almost for no reason. But also in this movie... But there is a reason for it. There is a reason. I get it. It's a beautiful send-off of Smoke. There's a couple reasons, though. There is a reason. But what I'm saying is, and by the way, that's one of my most rewatchable scenes. I like those. It's coming up later. But what I'm saying is, both scenes, all of this stuff is just, we're making this movie exactly the way we want to make it.

1:45:20And if it was any less authentic, it wouldn't have been what it was. But a lot of people are back and forth with that scene. I mean, we were calling it like a week after the movie, it was being called The Scene. Yeah. and I knew immediately when people were texting me being like okay go I was like oh I know what you're talking about and it was it was immediately the thing that all the black people in my life who were seeing the movie were just like okay what did it do it for you um and it really worked for some people and it really it's funny because it really because I'm a white person I watched it

1:45:57Bill Simmons:more for the filmmaking part of it and I just thought it was so cool how they did it and I was more caught up in that. I loved it. I was like, fucking Coogler. Jesus Christ. Sean saw the movie before me, a little bit before me, and Sean goes, there's one scene in the movie that as soon as you see it, I want to know what you thought. Yeah. And I thought it was something grotesque or, I don't know, I thought maybe it was some kind of vampire abuse scene or something like that. And I was like, but when I was in the theater, I automatically knew that's what he was talking about. But this is the thing to love about this movie though, right?

1:46:34Yeah. Like, this is, I'm going to say, officially a vampire movie. But the scene is this amazing tribute to the power of Black music to lure the vampires, right? Yeah. Like, the movie, in the movie's understanding of itself, does not exist without this scene. So, I mean, I know what it's doing and why it's there I think maybe I would have preferred a musical number right like maybe you get all these different you get these drummers and DJs and twerkers and folk singers to like just devise a musical number for them instead of this this more spectral supernatural metaphysical way I don't know but again I don't know if it's evenly divided but there are as many people who think that scene is perfect as it is as people like me who think there had to have been a better way to do it

1:47:39Bill Simmons:can I have the final word? of course you can I support Ryan Coogler and I support True Artist I support artistic choices oh my god that is just so boy now you know what I love about it? is he on the other side of the door right now? you know what I love about it? he knew it was going to be polarizing that's fucking why he did it And guess what? I still love that directors are doing that. He's like, you know what? I'm going to have this one scene. Some people are going to not like it. Some people are going to love it. And I'm just doing it. I'm sure he tested weird. I'm sure all of those. He got notes.

1:48:10Bill Simmons:I know he got a note. He got a note. He got probably a lot of notes. But I would say I'm glad he didn't cut it. As a person who is often asked to remove things from things that I think are great and wish could stay. So you win some, you lose some. I think he probably, this was a hill he probably died on. That's your fault because you don't work for the ringer. Next rewatchable scene. You really, okay, Zeus, keep throwing the lightning bolts. The vampires get married. Yeah. Outside is a great scene with a really good jump scare. Yeah, I love that moment. I love a moment where any - The jump scare.

1:48:50Little Exorcist 3-ish. Good editing. but is it a jump scare or is it it's even first time I watched it I definitely made it when he flies everybody in the theater went oh fuck I love that

1:49:03Bill Simmons:it was so good everybody just like made a groan yeah in the theater it really worked it was just so it was just like oh shit she's fucked it's a scary thing but then but just let's think about like how well put together this movie is you get that scene like Remick floats down from the sky behind her and it's a cut back to the club to the people dancing. You've got to wait. Yeah. How is she going to like what guys is she going to appear in when she comes back to the club? It's your the the levels of suspense or the suspenses that are happening simultaneously here are really, really effective. And again, I was happy with the first hour.

1:49:46I didn't need any of this. So I'm having an experience now that is more stressful than what I think I signed up to have.

1:49:54Bill Simmons:Marry Kill Stack is the next one. I mean, listen. Fucking crazy. Van would have taken it. What? That kind of sex, but then afterwards you get bitten and turn it up. I'm going. I mean, that's the power. Get right here. Do it a little lower so I can wear shirts over it? Yeah, I'm going. Smoke wastes no time.

1:50:22Smoke wastes no time. That whole thing where they're... This is what I love about the From Dusk Till Dawn, Tales from the Crypt, Demon Knight style where vampires are on the outside, we're stuck in the inside movie. I love the moment where everyone realizes that it's vampires. The moment where Salma Hayek turns and from dusk till dawn to where everybody's like fuck!

1:50:53Bill Simmons:That's what Annie says here. She's like, you ain't now. Says that to Cornbread After. Say it again how she said it. You ain't now. I said that incorrectly. So, so, so, but like that moment in that room, Smoke doesn't know to do. Mary just killed Stack and just like the whole thing is nuts. He says the best thing about me was him. Yeah. That is that'll, I mean, I kind of well, I mean, that got me. Well, you don't even think MBJ's getting nominated. That's not my wish. That's not my wish. I don't wish for him not to be. He said he was like honorable mention. Second tier. I don't want that to not happen to him.

1:51:40Bill Simmons:i would love michael b jordan to have an oscar nomination next one stack comes back from the dead and he knows what to do right away next one vampires make the case for taking preacher boy um and that's when when stack does that we're running around look for freedom we ain't never gonna be free the big fight scene heading into the sunrise um i have some nitpicks on the fight that'll come up later that sequence but um Smoke gets Annie Not you Stack has to kill Annie True love I'm sorry did I mess that up Smoke kill her

1:52:23Bill Simmons:Sammy escapes Twins have a fight We think we know who won But actually we don't And then the sun comes out It's always great to see the sun in a vampire movie You know you're safe There it is

1:52:42smoke dies after killing 12 kkk racists this is coogler who seems like he's doing he has that

1:52:50Bill Simmons:one shot of mbj coming in at the camera with the machine gun like doing the rambo and it was almost like coogler was doing the fuck you guys you wanted your old school action movie i'll give you this one scene but i'm doing this like to fuck with everybody something that scene also was a great mind fuck for the trailer. Yeah. Because it... Oh, yeah, that's a good point. Because, like, we hear that it's a vampire movie, and when the trailer first comes, there are no vampires. And then there's Michael B. Jordan shooting a machine gun in broad daylight. Mm-hmm. So you're like, wait a minute, what is it about?

1:53:25Bill Simmons:It's a good zag. Yeah. And you really don't know because... And it's not until the movie that it actually makes sense. You know, those ads... I mean, I have to say this movie was delivered to the country very seductively and to give it to us during basketball games and football games. Fantastic. It was so much better than the Jason Tatum Superman ad when he had blown out Achilles that just tortured me for four days. It's going to be okay. Last thing, the fake closing credits, which wins the Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness or Best Needle drop as well. Only two scenes on that. okay let's hear it one remix dance scene outside with everyone yeah it's intriguing because you'll never get to the bottom of it you'll never get to the bottom i'll just they was cutting up out there and two you know what scene i really like river dancing exactly i like the introduction of the childs where just from a filmmaking standpoint which we might get to in great shot gordo which that's going to be the hardest to maybe get up and get about ever to where he comes in and he's about the child's getting everything together and you're seeing smoke negotiate the camera follows their daughter out to the other side of the restaurant where she retrieves her mom the mom comes back like that entire part that just i it's a really amazing scene to me like when they're introduced the whole nine what do you have from us rewatchable i think it's the end i think it's I have the end as well.

1:54:57Pearline's overall, this is probably the ending of everything. What do you have, Craig? I think it's right when Remick floats and you're like, uh-oh, and things start to turn up in the juke joint. I'm not turning the channel.

1:55:12Bill Simmons:Okay. What's the most 2025 thing about this movie?

1:55:20Bill Simmons:I'll throw in, I didn't have this originally, but wesley morris um not liking the most important scene i'm putting that in um the twins technology being really good i'd put that in there coogler asking studios for first dollar gross final cut privilege and ownership 25 years after its release specifically 2025 but i am going with um this movie premiered on max which then turned into hbo max after it premiered was the most 2025 thing because we had to change the name of the back side. Yet again, I like that. The filmmaking technology, the fact that it took high-tech filmmaking technology as far as what they were able to do with the IMAX stuff, how they shot it to make the movie look authentically 1930s.

1:56:09It took that much to make it look that authentic.

1:56:13Bill Simmons:Okay. What's the best? I'll give you a couple.

1:56:19Bill Simmons:I always like this. Movies that start with the distinct scene and then we go backwards. We live a whole movie and then we circle back to the scene we saw in the beginning. Yes. Which some people try to pull off and fuck it up. But they don't fuck it up. I don't love that as a... It's sometime a lazy gimmick, not in this. Yeah. Twins Technology mentioned. The survivors eating garlic cloves to make sure one of them might not be a vampire. I love that. kind of pulled from the thing um i enjoyed that we mentioned the chinese couple with the two separate stores that sell different things to different clientele um there's a whole chris rock thing in there that i didn't even notice until i did the research when uh the clan guy pulls up at the end and he said club jude grand opening grand closing yeah chris rock bit I like the line I know plenty of musicians I ain't never met a happy one any movie character named Cornbread I saw Cornbread Earl and Me in the theater with Keith Wokes Cornbread Earl and Me poster coming I love that movie you rob banks and trains but won't steal this pussy for a night she's got some bears she just got some bears And that was her as a vampire Is there a Dirty Girl Hall fan?

1:57:51Alexis, Texas is flipping so hard right now Don't make me live in that Don't make me live in that part of myself But You talking about things that the theater was like Because I saw it I went to a screening of it And then I saw it with You talking about things in the theater and people was like, oh, shit. Because everybody, you know, they used to hear her talk like that.

1:58:16Bill Simmons:That's when Josh Allen was like, fuck, I gotta get a ring tomorrow. God damn it. I don't think we're going to that Travis Scott concert. I'm sorry, excuse me. They ran these lines. Don't think they didn't run. Josh is running lines with Haley Steinfeld. You think Josh was dressed up like Statt? Josh had to get her to drop out. I mean, I don't know. I don't know Haley Steinfeld's... I don't know this cooler guy. It's kind of crazy. He was definitely running lines with Haley. Coogler. Here's what's age the best. Coogler, they asked him if he wanted to do a sequel. He said, I wanted the movie to feel like a full meal.

1:58:52Bill Simmons:Your appetizer, starters, entrees, and dessert. I wanted all of it in there. I wanted it to be a holistic and finished thing. So his answer was no. He's definitely making a sequel. No, he can't. He'll do it in like 15 years. I don't want it. It'll happen. This is how the world works, sadly. If there's a sequel made, I hope it's him. because if this was 1997, the sequel would be straight to DVD and it would be Sinners 2, The Son. And it wouldn't star Michael B. Jordan. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Would Shannon Worry be in this? Yeah. Somebody like that. They switch everything out. So if he does it, I just hope that Sinners 2 is not made without Ryan Coogler.

1:59:34Bill Simmons:I could give you a whole thing about how they filmed the cigarette scene, but I'm not going to do it. You can go read that online. Big Kahuna Burger. What other What's Age the Best do you have? Anything else? I'm going to go with the look of the film. I'm going to give props to a higher learning guest. Autumn Duralt-Akapa, who was the DP. She shot the movie. And she came on Higher Learning and told us all about how she got the film to look like it did, how she lit the film, everything about it. So it was fantastic. Okay. Any other What's Age the Best for you? I think that the movie just came out it's a tough category it's a tough category I just you know Michael B.

2:00:14Jordan's Michael B. Jordan-ness right like I think that is I think people came for him and like stayed for Coogler they did a pie chart

2:00:27Bill Simmons:of who came out for it and MBJ was like 47 % Coogler was 43 % for biggest reason yeah which I thought was interesting I think and I wonder what happens I don't know how you exit poll to find out like who won the movie but basically i think you you would have been satisfied if this movie had just been michael b jordan kills all the vampires big cooner burger where best use of food and drink probably eating the garlic no no it's delta slim in the beer man oh the irish beer i had that was my other choice oh interesting for me it was it was just that sequence when they're preparing all the food. Oh, interesting.

2:01:05Right? Like, that great kitchen sequence, which I could have used an entire five minutes of. Yeah, that's fair. Oh, that catfish.

2:01:12Bill Simmons:Nancy Meyers did the kitchen. Shut up. I almost... I'm going to leave you for a second, too. I'm going to leave. It's just funny. It's just when... Because, you know, Stack is talking to him, and he's giving Stack shit, and Stack goes, okay, cool. and when he twists the top off the beer it tells us some goes oh yeah yeah and he performs for the beer I like the garlic only because I know the actors probably actually had to eat it and I always like when real life intersperses with actors you think it was actual garlic? 100 % that's some method acting shit but you're eating garlic you're gonna act naturally as you're eating garlic Craig eats garlic all the time yeah i'm a vampire so i don't you think it was real i feel like that was like chocolate that they painted to look like garlic or something i don't know so hard to eat and how many takes you got to do with that i mean for everything coog did in this movie like you got to have everybody eat the real garlic i think there's so much other sufferings people are being asked to deal with like yeah they got fake blood i think eating fake garlic in the research there was a lot of complaining about how gross the fake blood was and having it stuck on your face and stuck on Well, there's an alternative.

2:02:28Bill Simmons:Great shot Gordo Award for most cinematic shot. It's too tough. It really is ridiculously tough. I like Remick falling out of the sky. I just thought that scene where Remick falls out of the sky. Oh, just comes to, like, lands to the earth. So that's like Magic Hour, which it has to be because the sun is going down because... Oh, to get to turn the clansmen and the wife. To turn the clans people. So Remick falling out of the sky the first time. I like that. he's he's the son he's sun bruised yeah the we're gonna talk about we haven't even talked about my homies the native american vampire catches oh yeah the smartest people in the movie they got one sec that's the sequel yeah that's the sequel they got one category locked up for sure they do um but i just like that scene the way it looked even when he's sitting there talking and it's ducks behind him it's like time is running out like the whole thing I just really enjoyed it yeah I love that sequence because it promises you a movie that you don't get but also I'm very comfortable I'm happy to not have had it because I understand their whole point is like listen I'm trying to tell you something's going on if you got something in your house give it to us now because we're not coming back like I mean also we're not coming back to this movie because we're here to tell you that this shit is fucked up we're not doing it the sunset's pretty cool how they filmed that yeah in the end but they're probably the the movie is just a it's full of the great shot gorgeous shots man i think one of the ones i we mentioned earlier but the flashback when they're talking in the end and it flashes back to them in the car and him hearing him play for the first time and how much joy he has in his face i think is just really well done uh random new category or it's you only use it sometimes the ed norton reverse dunk award for did this movie need a random sports scene?

2:04:20Bill Simmons:Could we have like a baseball catch in here or something? Yeah. I thought about this. The old mitts, the two twins like throwing the ball for each other. Like Delta Slim is throwing the ball. He's like, fastest man I've ever seen with a fastball. Satchel Paige. They wouldn't even let him play in the league. We just got to be out here throwing the ball around with us. Just something like that. Like baseball, like something. Yeah. Weave it in. Chess Rockwell and Brock Lander is the word for best character name. Pizza Boy Smoke. Smoking Stack's pretty good. Preacher Boy is pretty tough to beat. Delta Slim, they got a bunch of names in the movie.

2:04:53Bill Simmons:Wesley, you have a flex category. You can pass on it. I thought Van was taking the flex. You don't need to. I'm going to pass on my flex category. Butch's Girlfriend Award for Weeklink of the Film. I have one. I'm thinking. I'm thinking. The fight scene. It's eight people against 50 vampires. and it makes it seem like it's like an 8 on 8 and there's like 50 vampires outside and I don't understand how they just didn't all get bitten right away. That's a pretty tough one. I call this the Blade conundrum. I've talked about this before. If you go back and you watch some of the fight scenes from like the original Blade movie which the fight scenes are great but it's one, it's three people rushing Blade.

2:05:46but really is one on ones because one person is fighting Blade and the other person is behind like in the Warriors it's like that

2:05:57Bill Simmons:and they're in Central Park and it's three against eight and they come one at a time it's like John Wick versus like 40 people in a room they all just like one person is fighting Blade and the first time you don't notice it but then the second time you notice it it's like yo why the other person standing behind, like, twirling the stick. Like, hit blade in the leg or do something like that. This movie... There's a lot of that. There's a lot of that. Yeah. Because, like, the vampires retreat at all times. Like, Stack one time goes to Mary, come on, let's get out of here. I'm like, why? Why don't I just finish killing?

2:06:32Mary runs out of the juke joint when she could have stayed in there killing. They don't even know that she is a vampire yet. So there's a couple of times that you're in a movie. I take that as they need to be near Remick. Maybe. They have to, they're stronger in groups. Oh, he's like their Delta star. Yeah. Maybe, maybe.

2:06:50Bill Simmons:The Mallory Rubin Award for, did this movie need a better sex scene? Mallory. Oh, you couldn't do, I don't know. Sorry, Mallory. The answer is no. Nah, I don't think so. Well, you want, did you want more nudity is the thing? Because there's no nudity, although there's some sex scenes in here. No nudity. I don't know. MBJ in the kitchen with Annie. I don't know. Could they have kept going on that one? Gone for the NC-17? i think the spit i think the spit the drool spit we didn't talk about that yeah the drool i think when she drools into that's when josh allen got engaged and he catches it he saw like that is so much more than anybody was asking for what's age the worst already i guess is i guess we have to call that the category um we mentioned already the coverage of uh the first two weeks post-release about, is this movie going to make enough money?

2:07:43Bill Simmons:So fucking weird. How was that? This movie, it should have been a fucking celebration that somebody made a movie that was a new piece of IP out of nowhere that was super creative. There was no other conversation to have. A lot of times we overreact on Twitter, but that's not one of them. I'm like, alright, man, what the fuck are you doing? Sinners makes 50 million, but is it enough? What are you talking about? Is it enough for who? For one thing. I mean, just like, and who sits around, this is like the NBA ratings conversation. Same thing. It's like, who's sitting around like at dinner going, hey, sinners, do you see it only made 51 million?

2:08:18Bill Simmons:Do you think that's enough for Cougar? Like nobody's in real life is talking about this. It's week one. The budget was$90 million, which I mean, which I have been told by some people who are doing some work with the studios that we're now in this new place where there's a class of movie that the studios want to try to make, which is called responsibly budgeted. Right? Between 70 and 90. Congratulations. But responsibly budgeted is like under 15 or something like that. I don't know what the, I don't know if that's an official number, but like everybody's got their responsibly budgeted ceiling. But 90, 75 to 90 is the other side of responsibly budgeted, right?

2:09:05Where there's the whole 74 to 17 million dollar zone where nobody can get a movie made for that much anymore. That's money not worth spending or something somehow. I don't quite understand the finances on this.

2:09:20Bill Simmons:The deal that Coogler made, which became a big topic in a lot of ways, this is future stuff. Warner Brothers was falling apart. they needed the movie like they were going to do whatever it took it's like if you have free agency one year and somebody signed some like Deshaun Watson gets a no trade contract and 230 million guaranteed from the Browns it's like they gave him that because they're the fucking Browns he wasn't going to go there unless they gave him the contract and then people always miss that part who's the Deshaun Watson in this scenario no I'm just saying I'm just saying alright guys we're on the same team here I'm saying Warner Brothers is the Browns they're a fucking mess they gotta do what they have to do to get the movie they want nobody wants to play for Warner Brothers there's one difference between Warner Brothers and the Browns boy has Warner Brothers been on a fucking win streak but part of it was because they did this deal it was a crazy deal that wasn't so crazy because they got this movie and they needed to lure that type of talent away from Disney see Van will he'll jump off my car any chance he gets Well, it's fun.

2:10:28It's just because you...

2:10:31Bill Simmons:It's just funny. They just hopped out of the car. I haven't even landed the metaphor yet. I agree with you. Cleveland Browns, Warner Brothers.

2:10:41But Deshaun Watson also. But wait, can I... He was a peace dude. The question really is how the, like, oh, little, oh, ye of little faith. Right? Like, the idea that this was some chance that Warner Brothers was taking on some guy named Ryan Coogler and Michael B. Jordan in it, it's a vampire movie. I just, you know, it's, now to be fair to somebody, right? Like, they probably, they saw the movie. There probably were some questions about whether it took too long for the vampires to show up. Do people want to really stick around and just watch black people be black people and regular black people in the Jim Crow Delta?

2:11:22There are things I can imagine a studio person having some concerns about, given how out of practice everybody is, telling stories about regular humans now. And Kugu was like, nah, but it's going to work, though. Cool. He's like, I'm four for four. Yeah, but now it's going to work, though. Four for four.

2:11:46Bill Simmons:You do the calculations for that batting average, because it's 1 ,000. the overacting word the Ruffalo Hanna ruby of partridge I say this out of complete love but it's probably Delroy Lindo who dials it up a couple times but I loved all of it I support it I appreciate it but if you're gonna say if anyone dialed it up in the movie it's probably him oh him oh it's him he's having the time of his life I want him to dial it up he's supposed to dial it up and then Delta Slim is supposed to be at 10 Mrs. Chow started getting on my fucking nerves too. Oh. Yeah. Well, she makes a bad choice. Her choice makes no emotional sense.

2:12:27It makes no practical sense. We're going to get to some nitpicks, but she was giving it at some point. That's a good one. She's going to get on my nerves too. And you have a flex category. My flex category in this situation is going to be the Den of Thieves, Minihana Award for Scene Stealing Location. What do you got? Clarksville and the American South. Oh, yay. What a beautiful, textured, gorgeous, heavenly depiction of a place that I am so, so connected to. I told the story to you guys before of riding through Mississippi with Ryan Russillo. Whoa, I didn't see that coming. Yeah. We did something at Ole Miss.

2:13:14We did a Ryan Russillo show. Got it, got it, got it, got it. So we had to fly into Memphis, and then we had to drive to Oxford. And I've told this story before, but we're in Mississippi, and there are cotton fields. You see cotton fields there. It's still a cash crop. And you can tell in the car who's not used to seeing that because they're not saying anything. And I'm like, yeah, guys, look at the cotton out there. Just check it out. Look at the cotton. how's that make you feel right away subject change but it's there's also this brutal beauty to the south things are old things have existed for a long time a general store is a beautiful thing to look at particularly when you're down there in the south so they really captured that

2:14:05Bill Simmons:in the movie the cr thinks luke wilson could have been harrison ford hottest take a word if you have one. You don't necessarily have to. Van probably has one. Wesley's not a hot take artist. Yeah, I don't really have a crazy hot take here. I don't know. I just think not liking the scene is about as wild as I can get it. So, Preacher Boy is there. You know, he's older. And they say, hey, we want to make you a vampire. If I'm preacher boy, I go, I want to be a vampire. I'll take a shot at Mary, though.

2:14:54I'm on my way out of here. You know, I've held it down. You know, you were asked to leave me alive. And like, you know, maybe me and Mary one time with a vampire. Wait, but hold on. We didn't even talk about a whole other sex scene That Preacher Boy has He has it with Perlene

2:15:14Bill Simmons:We have a spot for it He has it with Perlene but I'm saying Perlene's gone He's named the club after her He's an older guy If you really fuck with me like that So age 88 Age 88 Can I reenact how you died With a sex scene slash death fight One time By the way Since I'm about to be gone anyway look stat you can stay here kill everybody in the bar I don't even know this guy this is insane I just hired these guys I don't really even know who they are take out everybody in the bar just one time with Mary we out I like it here's my hottest take being a vampire not that hard I just feel like you just have to bite somebody on some part of their body and it's a W you come in and it's like I'm trying to bite him try to bite him.

2:16:07Bill Simmons:It's like, just bite any, you can bite anything. You bite their calf. Bite their hip. I just think if you have the giant fangs, if I try to jump on Van right now, he could fight me off, but I could still bite him at some point. I'm going to land a bite in a 10 second stretch. Vampire movies make it seem like, oh, it's just, I just think you're going to be able to eventually bite somebody. But I love a vampire movie where the vampires don't, they're just like, I'll just go around your arm. I will just bite you anyway It could be anything It could be the side of your leg It could be your butt cheek They always make it seem like it's got to be this area In a vampire movie I guess that's probably where the most blood is But not to turn you into a vampire Yeah if my goal is to turn You into a vampire It doesn't matter where I bite you It just has to give you a bloodstream Yeah that's fair Just don't overcomplicate it If we're doing Sloan Conference analytics for the best vampires.

2:17:06Bill Simmons:It's the undiscerning vampires. They're just the ones who are like, I don't care what part I bite. I don't need to feed. My job is to create other vampires. I need a nice group of vampires. Then we'll fucking feed. I'm with you. This is a great point. Casting what-ifs. Didn't really have any except for Halsey completed a script read for the Haley part. Didn't get it. Interesting. That's all I got. 20 years from now, it'd be like every single actor from there. It'd be like, Chalamet was almost in this as best that guy award. It's got to be Cornbread. Omar Benson Milley. I didn't know what his name was until I looked it up doing the research for this movie.

2:17:47Bill Simmons:He's been in stuff. I just never knew what his name was. Some of your favorite movies? Yeah. Oh, no. He's, I just never knew. He was a classic that guy. I mean, his film, his list of his filmography is just like, oh, right. Oh, right. Oh, right. Oh, right. Yeah. Now, did you, have you heard the story about how he got in this movie really quickly? No. Ryan Coogler, he told it at the premiere. Ryan Coogler was. Name drop. Ryan Coogler was either a film student or just graduated SC when he went to a screening of the miracle at St. Anna. The Spike Lee movie. that Omar Benson Miller was in. He went there and he told him, like, one day I'm going to work with you and put you in a movie.

2:18:42Like, I'm going to be a filmmaker. We're going to work together one day. And years later, when Cougar was putting the movie together, he reached out to Omar Benson Miller and he put him in the movie. I love that. Omar told the story at the thing. He was like, we actually got a chance to work for him. He's like, this kid who came up to me ended up doing everything that he said he was going to do in his career, and then we ended up working together all of these years later.

2:19:14Bill Simmons:Craig and I have a different story. Craig just came out here to be an actor. Yeah, that's right. Did you? Kind of stumbled into it. I wasn't in a commercial, though. What commercial were you in? It was a nationwide insurance Gruden Grinder Monday Night Football when he was doing that. Gruden Grinder? He had a Gruden Grinder segment. Oh, wow. The Gruden Grinder. Love the Gruden Grinder. Dion Waiters Award. It's either Delroy Lindo or Buddy Guy. I got to be honest with you. It, to me, is easily the Native American vampire hunters. The Chocked House? They are in it for one scene. They try to warn everybody.

2:19:52Like, legitimately. They come in. They cook. They look cool. They're very important. They tell this woman, look, it's a vampire in your house. And the guy sitting in the front, he's like, I really want to help. Homeboy is like, hey. Yeah, we gotta go. The sun is going down. Day-day. Let's get the fuck out of here. You know, the Choctaws, I like the Choctaws. Yeah. I like it. I like that.

2:20:17Bill Simmons:Recasting Couch Director City. I'm gonna explore the studio space on this one. It's one more character. I'm just going to create a new character. Get our girl, Phil Davis in this. Aunt? Maybe she's the aunt of Smoke and Stack. Oh, interesting. She's got some special skill. She knows how to make... We just get one extra scene with her. I feel like we're one person short with the group. Okay. You want more star power? I just want one more... Is there a character? One more famous person. A little older. somewhere between the Delroy Lindo age and MBJ's age. Early 50s. Family member. Knows some history with the twins and doesn't like Mary.

2:21:06But doesn't she kind of upstage a little bit of what Annie's doing? No, not a huge part.

2:21:12Bill Simmons:Maybe it's an uncle. I was just trying to figure out one more person we can throw into this. What if you put in somebody who is Delta Slim's estranged wife? Yeah, because he's the one. But, you know, we already know he's probably got four exes. Four exes. As it is. She's in there. And he's like, I don't want to see this drunk motherfucker. Fuck him. See? We're just five minutes short with somebody. I don't know who it is. I was trying to think of a good actor. You need somebody with a little comedy. A little older little comedy. Yeah, that is the thing. Jennifer Lewis. Jennifer Lewis. You put Jennifer Lewis in there.

2:21:49But it's too much. She is the Brontosaurus steak that tips over the Flintstones car. You don't want... You don't want... Jennifer Lewis is too much.

2:22:01Bill Simmons:Half-ass internet research. I'll go quick. Our guy Ludwig, he drew inspiration from blues music, but more importantly, performed the score on a 1932 Dobro Cyclops resonator guitar, which was the one Sammy has the whole movie. Yeah, okay. yeah um kluger said his two biggest influences for the film two of his biggest influences dust till dawn the faculty with roe with roe riggs i get it starring john stewart a movie that i think he tried to buy all the copies of to destroy but he is not because it's still on cable uh yep yeah they cast a twin double named percy bell who had the same kind of body as mbj um and And they also hired Twin Consultants.

2:22:45Oh, Twin Consultants. Yeah. Well, also consultants-wise, Rhiannon Giddens, the great Americana musician, and I guess, I mean, we'll call her a scholar. Yeah. You know, it was a person Beyonce turned to to sort of figure out how to think through what Cowboy Carter was doing. Huge blues presence, Chris Stone, Kingfish Ingram is in the band at the end with Buddy Guy. He's one of the musicians you see in that slow motion transition shot. Yeah, this place, the Irish culture consultant, whose name has now escaped me. There's a lot of just, you know, let's make sure we know what we're doing here.

2:23:29Bill Simmons:This is why it takes Coogler two plus years to make a movie. When Smoke and Stack return, they go to downtown Clarksdale, Mississippi, but it was shot in Donaldsonville, Louisiana. Oh, man. I dated a girl from there. Talk to us about Donaldsonville. We used to have our horses there. Donaldsonville, like we used to, before we had the barn, we used to board horses there. Donaldsonville is cool. Girls in Donaldsonville High used to be fine as hell. I'll be for real. Girls in Donaldsonville High. Track team. This surprises me. Donaldsonville had a nice track. Girls in Donaldsonville High was fine as hell.

2:24:07They had to make it dirt roads.

2:24:11Bill Simmons:And they had to bring in all this dirt to actually make the dirt road over the pavement. So Remick mentions how Christians took his father's land. Oh, yeah. But he's Irish. And that actually puts his life somewhere between the 5th and 7th centuries. So he's old as shit. Yeah.

2:24:32Bill Simmons:The film, there's a lot of Robert Johnson stuff that I did not know a lot of. But the guitar player, Blues Guy, who supposedly sold the soul to the devil and then died young and whether... Crossroads with Ralph Macchio? Yeah. Oh no. What are we... We were doing so well. Although, shouts to Joe Seneca. Shouts to Joe Seneca. Wesley, you'll like this. The working title of this film was Grilled Cheese because Coogler was used to making complicated dishes. he wanted this to be an enjoyable, easy eating experience. So he named it grilled cheese and all the script demo shit. The finest Gruyere he could find, too.

2:25:18Bill Simmons:Apex Mountain, hard to do when this movie just happened. But Ryan Coogler, I find it hard to believe he's going to have more power than he has right now. And if he does, in a couple years, God bless him. But this is about as much juice as you're going to have for a director, I think. But think about like who's not making his next movie he could be like I'm gonna make a movie about Van's left kneecap here's 100 million but I just think how they were talking about this movie I know but now that this happened he can do whatever the fuck you want for 90 sight unseen for this really yeah he could literally go to them right now and say I need 250 million bucks let me even tell you the idea 250 I'm like we're not doing superhero shit we're not doing this I need 250 million dollars and we're gonna go make a movie and they will they will say yes it's a movie about the Donaldsonville High girls in 1992 right the cheerleading squad wouldn't it be 92 I'm not you know 96 Donaldsonville High Michael B.

2:26:22Bill Simmons:Jordan Apex Mountain hmm hmm I don't think so no no I think so for sure I think for where his career is so far yes yeah already fine he's just I think it is that's the face of a $500 million revenue. Where does he go? What does he do? Does he have another level to it? Does he have his version of the Revenant? I think we're at the... Okay. You'll get this. You know how... Because I'm white? No, because you love NBA basketball. But that's probably because you're white. I love watching them dunk, dad.

2:27:04they jumped so high you should have seen the chief what he was able to do so you know how a player has all of these they have all NBA they have all star seasons but then like 26 27 is the official beginning of their prime so I think this is the official beginning of Michael will be Jordan's prime. I said that earlier. I totally agree.

2:27:30Bill Simmons:I think these next five, six years will be, this is going to be it now. I'm not saying he hadn't been all NBA. I'm not saying he hadn't been an all-star. I'm saying this is the official beginning of his prime. It's like a little Hakeem in the early 90s for the Rockets where it all starts coming together and he has that crazy stretch, wins two titles. I don't disagree. I'm just like, I feel this way about so many people. Timothee Chalamet is Pac-Man right now. any script is on a table anywhere like his people are gobbling up and whatever gets excreted that is still intact is what gets picked up and done right like i just feel like show me the scripts i keep i but that that changes all the time because like in the goldman books which are right over your red shoulder but he always talks about like who has that alpha seat with the scripts Yes.

2:28:26Bill Simmons:But it flips. It does change. It does change. But I feel like there are so few people now who are viable both in the minds of the public and in the sort of books of the industry that I definitely think this is the moment for people to be giving Michael B. Jordan or offering Michael B. Jordan really interesting things to do. Well, he's also at the age now where he can play any adult role. Right. He can be in a sports movie right now. He could be the cop who's been in the force for a while. He could be a detective. You name it. He's not too old to be anything yet. Okay. I'm not here to disagree.

2:29:05Bill Simmons:How about vampire movies? Apex Mountain. Apex Mountain? I can't be. I'd have to think about it. So what is it? What do you mean? What's the apex of vampire movies? Oh, it's probably that period where... Dracula? I mean... Which Dracula? Stoker's Dracula? I think it's that period where, well, here's what I'll say. It's probably late 70s. Here's what I'll say. I feel like this is a great moment in American life, or maybe even considering where Europe is right now, to really be thinking about what these vampires are offering in these movies. If you think about Robert Eggers' Nosferatu, Yeah. And in the way that that Eggers is arguing for a vampirism that is hard to resist because it is just too sexy to say no to.

2:29:59Right. The power of the vampire is too strong to not want to have sex with. and so you give yourself completely over to him it's one of that nosferatu is one of the most convincing sort of political psychological arguments for vampirism i've ever seen i think what does he want to bring vampirism back well it's here we're watching it happen and i think

2:30:24Bill Simmons:that this i'd like to be a conciliary to the vampires just go for any body part um well in this metaphor stop going for the next you don't you don't want it you don't want to be anywhere near these people. But I also think that Googler has also found a very appealing way. I think vampire... This is definitely Apex Mountain moment. For vampire culture? As metaphor. It's Apex Mountain certainly for black vampires. How about twin brother movies? Is it though? Have you seen Blackula? I've seen Blackula. Vampire in Brooklyn? But I would say it was between this and the movie. is bad oh blade okay but this is not about but okay fine you're this is fair uh not enough black vampires though right eddie tried during his worst part of his career my guy uh twin brother movies maybe twin movies this this is the most successful is this the highest grossing twin movie almost certainly with twin leads yeah for sure yeah uh hailey stan stanfield steinfeld yeah can i say it hailey steinfeld uh yes for sure for sure so far i think there might be another moment for pickled garlic juice yes cunnilingus advice oh cunnilingus advice can't remember a better cunnilingus advice scene in the movie no we're not doing better than this one just look for that button well i'm sure i'm going to say never because i'm sure there's one i'm missing but I can't think of it the blues I'm gonna go no Haines but the blues well let me think about this the blues in movies for sure right like the blues as they say no better blues but that's a jazz movie this is like they wouldn't say no better blues oh I think this might be let's think about the blues let's think about this this is definitely at least in the movies this is the this is the this is the blues.

2:32:25This is a great blues movie. How about drooling?

2:32:31Bill Simmons:Best drool scene ever. But there are several good drool scenes in there. This is a good drooling movie. Yeah. Movie characters named Cornbread. Probably yes. I don't think Cornbread role in me has really had a long shelf life. No. All right. Cruiser Hanks. So we're talking about for Remick? It can be for any role you want. Oh, wow. But obviously, it can't be for certain roles. Cruz, I was about to say, it can't be for any role. Cruz would kind of fucking kill it as Remick. Cruz would murder fucking Remick. He's played Remick. That's why we know. This is the better Remick, though. Midnight's Cruz.

2:33:11Fucking crazy.

2:33:12Bill Simmons:This would have been like the best part of his career. Now, he did fuck up to me as Lesat. I did not like that at all. Movie is bad. That's not what I'm talking about. He would love another crack at that part. I'm sure. He would be basically Cocktail Cruise as a vampire. He would kill as Remy. He'd get behind the bar and start flipping bottles. That dance scene would be so fucking bizarre and crazy. He would learn how to do the Irish dance. He would do the Tropic Thunder dance. Kill as Remy. I think, though, this is raising an alternate series of questions about what Tom Cruise's life looks like after this year.

2:33:57What are his choices? What's he doing? If Kugler is offering... Let's say this movie gets made a year from now instead of two years ago. He's only the KKK guy.

2:34:09Bill Simmons:He's the old guy that sells him the house. Him and Mike would be smart to get the movie together. I mean, this is what I'm saying. Dan asked for this one. Denzel or Will? Pick any age range. In their primes, this is not fair to Michael B. Jordan. Why are we doing this in Michael B. Jordan? In their primes. It's a movie podcast of hypotheticals. Play the game. It's a no-brainer. You're taking two Denzels or two Wills. I think you're going early 90s Denzel. Or like 93, 94 range. You're definitely, yes. I think he would have fucking crushed it. Devil in a Blue Dress era Denzel is a no-brainer. You don't think a little younger?

2:34:54I would have gone early 90s. Devil in a Blue Dress is 95. I would have gone

2:34:59Bill Simmons:92, 93 range. Like Malcolm X era? Like right after. No better blues, Malcolm X, Denzel, I'm sure. Let's do it. A smoking stack. Scorsese or Spielberg? I can see Spielberg has never done any kind of horror. We get some 1930s cocaine with Scorsese. One of the vampires. The fangs coming out. Wow, that just gave real big Pacino. That was my favorite. Wow. Never done cocaine.

2:35:42Bill Simmons:What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? Oh, he'd be a good Remick. He would be a good Remick. He also could have been the Klan guy, but maybe he's a little too young for that. Not enough part there. But he could have been a great remake too. Special category. I didn't even put this on the rundown. How would Van Lathan get out of this one? Out of which one? The whole situation. The situation is you're now a vampire and you're trying to convince your brother not to drive a wooden stake through your heart. How do you get out of this one? Okay, wait, so I'm the vampire I'm trying to convince my brother Not to kill me And like Here's my plan, let's go Right, okay First of all, I'll say to Smoke, I go Smoke First of all, you already killed our father Right?

2:36:36You killed our father You're gonna kill me too? What are you? A person that kills your own family? Right

2:36:42Bill Simmons:How many family members can you kill? Smoke? Violent man? I saw you early shoot two black men in the street. Don't we have enough going on in this city? You know who shoots black men and kills black families? White people. You one of them now? You one of them now, Smoke? Smoke. As a matter of fact, you need to come over here with me, bro. There's a new dance. It's taking over Clarksville. It's called the jig. We ain't never done it before, but you jump high. You flip your legs up around. When you come down, your credit score has gone way up. You tell me something. Bro, you don't want to do this.

2:37:14You want to come on this side, bruh seriously don't kill me all right you live yeah you live well picking it's that's great why did smoking stack leave chicago they robbed somebody they robbed capone they robbed

2:37:35Bill Simmons:so they robbed them and they leave they stole the irish beer and the italian okay but now they're like the deep south is this burgeoning business opportunity yeah i don't really understand their business plan well it seemed like in chicago i'm better off just robbing people in chicago there's way more money there i think there's such a history of black first like they opened the juke and they realize almost immediately nobody has enough money to make this functioning enterprise fuck but then there's a community argument to be made for like keeping it open anyway i don't know it's a very moving kind of like naive like desperation slash naivete that's happening here right like a belief sentimental this is picking nits a belief in your people sorry your your nit has been picked i they say well in the movie they say that they decide to go with the devil that they knew which is very uh interesting because there happens to be a devil an actual devil that they have no idea about yeah but yeah so that's the deal with the reason why they came in.

2:38:36Bill Simmons:So first time we see Remick, he's diving into that, toward that person's house. Right? And gets in and he's like covered in whatever. The sun's out. So why didn't he just die? I thought they died the moment the sun was out. Well, it's like sundown. He was like about to... It's dusk. Or it's dusk. Yeah. Okay. It's not high sun. The sun is not... By the way, are there rules with how high the sun has to be? His skin is boiling. Yeah, his skin is boiling. This varies from vampire movie to vampire movie. There are certain vampire movies We've never established a code here. Where the sun comes out and the vampire immediately disintegrates.

2:39:17Yeah. But there are certain vampire movies where the sun comes out like in Blade. It's like, I gotta get right out of here, please. So I guess this was more of a slow burn. Okay. You know what this movie does that I struggled with? But Vin, you know vampires, so you probably didn't think about it. But I don't know how much you do or you do. But the whole, you have to invite a vampire in, they don't really hold your hand through that. They just expect you to know it. But it's such a plot point here. Eventually it gets banged into your brain. I kind of love, I love, I'm not familiar with that. I didn't really know that.

2:39:54I forgot that that was a rule. Yeah. But I kind of love how important it is in the world of the movie because it is also serving the metaphor, the sort of racial metaphor. Sure. Right? And the movie really commits to the invitation question. And watching it the second time you pick up on how early on they start to ask if they can be invited in it. Because originally, you don't really think about that. The second time I watched it, I was like, oh, the invitation is crucial.

2:40:22Bill Simmons:Yeah. So maybe we had consent back in the 1930s in a way we didn't realize. It's true. I still like, if you guys are looking for an all-time vampire let me in scene that's funny the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer where David Arquette is outside Luke Perry's window and he's flying he's floating and Luke Perry has just like woken up and he's going to open the window for his friend and he realizes that his friend is flying and he's like let me in let me in he goes no like you're in the air I'm not gonna let you in that Right. It's legitimately hysterical. It's a very funny scene. And otherwise, I'm about to diss the movie.

2:41:08I love that fucking movie. I'm not about to diss the movie.

2:41:09Bill Simmons:Quick nitpicks. I love that movie. Fuck y 'all. They built the juke joint in three hours. Just got that thing right up. But they're not building it, building it. Like, they're just making it inhabitable. I'm just asking. Yeah. They had a lot of help. A lot of stuff happened that day leading up to the night of the juke. I still love it. I don't care. Just here to pick some nets. Would the three vampires have really turned into an awesome banjo band in two minutes? Another hilarious development, though. No. No rehearsals? They have all of Remix's memories. Oh, okay.

2:41:51Bill Simmons:And then we talked about this earlier. How did Andy know so much about vampires and how did the vampires not immediately win the 50 versus 8 fight? What did you have for Nipix? So, okay, number one We all Let's say we all in here right now The vampires are outside Craig is like Yo, man, Liz is out there Craig, go find her, bruh Peace The fuck out Like, he's like, go Go find your wife Right I'm not about to be like Craig, you can't go Craig, you gotta stay here Man, Craig, you feel like You gotta go find your girl I feel you We in this bitch Good luck to good luck, Craig. We in this bitch till sunup.

2:42:32Bill Simmons:Yeah. Go find it. And that's what I would have told Miss Child. I'd been like, hey, you know what? You're right. That's unfortunate. I don't know what they're going to do with the kids and stuff. Take your ass out there to Bo. Go find them. They also didn't seem interested in anybody else other than the people in the club. Your daughter's probably fine. They are. The moment I saw a vampire, my whole life would be changed in such a fundamental, profound way. Like, it would be so different. Like, yeah, you want to go? You're right, man. Ain't you a soldier? Hey, he is. And he's going to stay in here and protect us.

2:43:06Get the fuck out. I would have kicked her out. I would have pushed her out of the vein. Yeah, you can't kick her out. But I understand the urge to because she instantly becomes a very annoying person. The Klan. Uh-oh. Why would you come to the Jew joint in the morning to kill everybody. Wouldn't it be a better idea?

2:43:29Bill Simmons:Yeah, why not come at 4.30 at night? Yeah. When they're actually partying. And they're drunk. Yeah, everybody's in there drunk. You're going to come in the morning. First of all, you don't hear any music. Like, you don't hear anything going on. The door isn't open. The Klan actually thought that the people were inside there where he thought they all were sleeping. Have you met the Klan? That's true. These people are not winning any MacArthur Genius Awards. They're not winning Peabody posters. They're not. They don't even get 200 points for putting their name on the top of the SAT. It's true. Like, I don't know.

2:44:05These are not. They don't even have a drawer. Not a lot of oxygen with the hoods.

2:44:09Bill Simmons:I think it does hurt them. Probably so. We can't see in these goddamn things. All y 'all do is criticize, criticize, criticize. Now, last thing. Man, I'm for indigenous black unity. but boy did our native brothers leave us out there to get our asses kicked by the vampires man they said they were leaving and not coming back mad respect I know but we are there and we are getting held as vampires and our native brothers they left us out they hung us out to dry man did they hang us out kind of first of all if I was them so they're hunting the vampires right? Yeah. Why not go throughout the town and let people know there are vampires afoot.

2:44:58Where their other stops were. Could have been. I mean, because this is the sun is setting, right?

2:45:03Bill Simmons:Yeah. Or send an email. No. Something. Well, there's an alternate version of this movie where the Choctaw's show up at the end, like right as shit's going down and all of a sudden they have like additional I've thought about that. Additional bodies. That wouldn't make me feel. I don't know. It would have been more conventional. One last question. Yeah. Do vampires have to ask to get inside of your car? Great question. Because if you have to invite a vampire in and everybody's like scattered outside, why does it go jump in the cars? Jump in the... It's a good rule of thumb for people listening when the vampires come to get us.

2:45:45Yeah, when the vampire comes, everybody.

2:45:46Bill Simmons:Just get in a closed body of something. Get in the closed... Whatever. Now, Colin Farrell and Fight Night, he changed the game. Because he wouldn't be let inside of the thing and he went and ripped up the gas lines of the kids. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then did like this and put the match to the thing. He's like, I'm going to burn the fucking house down. I love vampires, man. I love vampires. Colin Farrell and Fight Night. Are you a vampire guy or a werewolf guy? Depends on my mood. Should have done. Can I pick one nit? Yeah. And then Liz has a nit. Yeah, okay. Okay, when Mrs. Chow makes the Molotov cocktail, lights it on fire, throws it at Remick, he slaps it away, and it hits the barn door and lights the barn door on fire.

2:46:35How? Nothing happens from that. The place does not burn down. There is no fire. The whole place would have burned down. The whole barn door is on fire. He hits it in the middle. Well, he can't burn the barn down twice, right? Like he's already given you the metaphorical barn burning. Well, then I don't know why they include that.

2:46:53Bill Simmons:It's a red herring burn. The whole door is on fire for a scene. He hits it and it ignites. And then they never get back to it. You never see the fire again. It's like a continuity error. Yeah. Second one from Liz. She thought smoke and stack were too ripped. Didn't make sense. They weren't ripped. They were just thick. I did notice that. He is huge. Michael B. Jordan is extremely fit. Like Creed fit. But you're bringing your old, you're bringing your memory of the old Michael B. Jordan body to this body. I think this is just a thick guy. Oh, come on. Like, I think, like... No, this is a 2025...

2:47:28He is shaggy. With the machine gun, he is, like, Rambo Jack. No, you have, like,

2:47:30Bill Simmons:those, like, George Foreman, Ken Norton-type bodies in the 1930s. Yeah, but I think he's... I think that I actually, I truly believe that that is the body he was trying to get to. And I don't know, he's not as... Also, we never see him with his shirt off, right? We see the tank top, that's it. Yeah, that's about as far as it goes. I feel like somebody was aware of this concern, and he was probably asked to eat as many croissants as he possibly could to like, DM, to detone himself. They would have to be working out a lot, and they both look the same. Yeah. I don't know, maybe there was a gym in Chicago.

2:48:09They were in the military.

2:48:10Bill Simmons:Sequel. And they were in the military. 20 years ago. sequel, prequel, prestige, TBL, black cast are untouchable. Interesting. It's actually a tougher category than you would think. Can I test drive the prequel? Them in Chicago stealing from Al Capone? I'm in. I will watch it. It's not a vampire movie. It's just a late 1920s action Great Depression in Chicago movie. I'm interested in that. Yeah. That's like a little Godfather too to me. I'll come up with that. Think about it, Ryan Coogler. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collins, or with Daniel Plainview, Longlegs, or Wilford Brimley in the firm?

2:48:57Daniel Plainview was funny.

2:48:58Bill Simmons:Did Sam need to be in this movie? Do you think he was upset he wasn't asked? No. Don't do it. What? He's in the category. I don't. Sam's like, I'm right here. He's done. Sam is Delta Slim. Yeah. I'm going with a new answer for this that's not in the rundown. The Good Doctor. Oh, shit. You love this show now. Oh, interesting. I like that show. The Good Doctor is one of the people in the... Oh, my God. Wow. In the Chook Chook. And they're trying to figure out what's going on, and they're like, the vampires are trying to kill us. We cannot let them in. Because they are vampires. If you open that door, they will...

2:49:39Bill Simmons:And it's just like, he's almost like Spock for the crew and everybody's like, this guy's so fucking annoying. Send him out. Let's get rid of him now. The good doctor. Craig wasn't expecting that one. Sam Jackson made this movie. It's called Black Snake Mode. I did not like that movie. Many people didn't. That movie's a tough thing. I've tried a bunch of times. I appreciate the... There's a crazy blues movie for you. Just one Oscar. Who gets it? It's Ryan Coogler. I think one Oscar is probably I have I have Mike but probably the direction is probably it's probably Kugler it's Kugler for directing I think it's Kugler for directing I think if you did this what's the safest bet Oscar from this movie is the scores winning I don't even know what the other scores are I would vote for original screenplay oh okay I would vote for original.

2:50:40Bill Simmons:How about that new category? Because it hasn't happened yet. What is the over-under for Oscars for this movie? Not even knowing what's coming out. Winning or being nominated. Well, let's go winning and nominations. Okay. So I'm going to... FanDuel. Does FanDuel set this at three and a half? So picture is almost a shooting. Pictures in play because that's a 10 nomination category, right? Or did they shrink it? Oh, for nominations. Yeah, it's definitely a best picture. picture 100 % picture you can't get to 10 movies right now right picture kugler score mbj can i sell you can i sell you on annie's character as a best supporting actress now oh yeah 100 yeah i can see that to me it's like can she and hayley both get in only five spots me is is much yeah like much like i think i think she'd be the favorite in that one But I wouldn't be mad if Delroy's getting nominated Lock that in Honestly?

2:51:44Can I just say We have been saying lock that in for Delroy Lindo For 30 years Jack O 'Connell as well And he's never been nominated

2:51:53Bill Simmons:I think Delroy is the most likely to win Whoa Listen, there's 20 total acting Nomination spots And this movie might End up with 5 of them I think Delroy is the most likely way Interesting I would bet on Delroy right now If Fandle had the odds Eddington and then the PTA movie Yeah we haven't seen the PTA movie Are gonna be like Fucking mammoths But cause Eddington is phenomenal But This is interesting This is a completely different conversation About Eddington You didn't like Eddington? I mean I have mixed feelings about it but I feel like there are a lot of people who really don't like it. I don't know.

2:52:38I can't tell how many, how leg it's going to be. It's an exceptionally polarized movie. I haven't seen it.

2:52:42Bill Simmons:It's coming to the end of the year. Probably unanswerable questions. We did everything. The only one I have left is, did Josh Allen enjoy this movie? Oh, great question. What an unbelievable press conference moment that would be before, like, the first week one. Hey, what do you think about the Pats defense, blah, blah, blah. And then, Josh, Bill Simmons here from ESPN.com. What was your least favorite scene from Sinners? How much did you hate Sinners on a scale of 1 to 10? That's funny. I have one unanswerable question. Do Stack and Mary in 1992 still listen to Irish music? Oh, great question.

2:53:22Well, the great thing about that question is Remix Dead. Do they ever just put on, because that was around the time that Lord of the Dance

2:53:31Bill Simmons:was starting to like, do they watch I think they've moved on I mean they're dressed I mean think about how they're dressed the end of that movie is really kind of deep because if we're thinking about this as a music movie and he has all these feelings about the blues they are dressed like Keith Sweat and like some Mary J. Blige prototype some like Salt-N-Pepa basically and shout out to Keith they they're clearly I don't know I mean there's something about the vampires being aligned with hip hop at this point and they're going out into the night to do who knows what if they're musically driven what are they musically driven to do and what are they musically already doing I don't know there's a lot of like they would have had to have figured out these clothes they would have had to have survived the 70s and the 60s this should have been a good unanswerable question what they do for 60 years how many people did they bite they had they've had to buy did they have favorite restaurants i mean here's a here's a here's a sequel or like a freak smoke was a big bulls fan in the late 80s early 90s really got into mj started going to games cut season bit the guy who had awesome season tickets who can say like i mean i don't there's a whole world of, of there's like what?

2:55:03Five decades, six decades. A lot of shit going on.

2:55:06Bill Simmons:Um, quickly what's, let's rip through. Cause we're late on time. Uh, I have to go to the airport. What piece of memorabilia is you want or not want from this? It's gotta be the good suit. The harmonica. Yeah. What about the broken guitar? We'd love that too. Coach Finstock or best life lesson. You keep dancing with the devil. One day he's going to follow you home. I have a different one. What do you got? White women can come in the party, but not white men.

2:55:32Amen. But listen, a black woman did come in. Yeah, no, I'm saying you might. I mean, no white woman entered. We might let, we're not one of the 53 % of white women. They know who they are. But we might let them in the party. But white men, y 'all bring too much shit with y 'all.

2:55:48Bill Simmons:Best double feature choice. What do you got? Oh, great question. For me, it was from Dusk Till Dawn. Easy. I was going to pick a Tarantino. My impulse is to pick a Tarantino movie. Interestingly. I had The Thing. Oh, that's a good one. But I think the answer is Fruitvale. Oh, say more. First. Go in the beginning. Then you follow the journey all the way. This fully realized 12 plus years later. Here are these guys again in a completely different, amazing movie. I like that idea. I like that idea. All right. Toughest one. Who won the movie? Maybe not that tough. It's not tough. Ryan Coogler. Ryan won.

2:56:27Ryan Coogler won. Mike is right, dude. Really, it's Mike and Ryan. I mean, just think about the way we have been talking. The afterlife of this movie, which really is still its actual life because it's only been three or four months. These are Ryan Coogler's ideas. These are ideas that are older than Ryan Coogler that he has reframed in a way to make us think about them in a different way. and these are ideas that are exciting to think about as ideas, right? Like, what does this movie mean? What is it saying? What is it doing?

2:57:03Bill Simmons:Cougar's answer. There's a Miles Caten in 20 years. But 20 years from now, we might be saying it was Miles Caten if he becomes this massive A-plus list star and this was the launch you had for him. I'd be like, you know who actually won that movie? I don't see it happening, but we could, let's see. Craig, what are your thoughts? Quick. uh saw it in the IMAX at the Grove with a friend loved it incredible theatrical experience um I think Van comparing Kugler to Spielberg is is correct and I've thought about that because Kugler really knows how to be theatrical he knows how to sell it like I think this movie is so good because you can kind of just watch it on the surface and have a great time and think it's a 10 out of 10 or you could really get into it and all the layers of it and think it's a 10 out of 10 for a completely different reason.

2:57:51And like him drawing this whole movie up, knowing how to market it, the shot of Michael B. Jordan with the gun, like building the trailer correctly to get people into the theater. He has that Spielberg like magic sauce to him where he knows how to combine a great movie and also make it feel like a popcorn movie. So it's great. I just had a whole conversation about like all of Steven Spielberg's children in this conversation I had with my friend Eric about the 100 greatest movies of the 21st century or whatever on cannonball see i can do it bill um but we were talking about the ways in which spielberg is i mean remains the most important father of an of like these tributaries of filmmakers like his coaching tree who are very different from spielberg but like really understand spielberg's sort of entertainment philosophy um And hold on to some of his ideas while also just being themselves at the same time.

2:58:50This movie is also just like so shockingly original. Like even I watched it with Liz and my brother-in-law the other night. Liz hadn't seen it yet. 20 minutes in, she was like, this isn't based off anything, right? I was like, no. I don't think how sad that is. It's just so...

2:59:04Bill Simmons:Honestly, and that's what we did our video about last month. It's just like original IP, man. It still wins. Even if you don't like the big musical scene or whatever, I just like that the movie feels like It's one person's hands all over it. Somebody had an idea. Somebody had an idea. Sinners, an all-timer. HBO Max is now the platform that it's on, I guess. But you can watch it. But I would recommend, if you haven't seen The Theater yet, go to The Theater. Wesley Morris, a true pleasure. Bane Lathan, great as always. Thanks to Craig and Chris as well. And One Name Movie Month will continue next week.

2:59:45We'll be right back.

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