‘Snake Eyes’ With Bill Simmons, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan

14:50Sean Fennessey:Ghost Rider if it was released in 2017 in the Marvel machine back then would have been cool. It would have been fantastic because you might have got a different take on it. There's also a Ghost Rider sequel that is like almost unwatchable. Spirit of Vengeance. Spirit of Vengeance, yeah. Eat Yourself is a now one. It's very, very hard to watch. Tough one. But he's also like a huge comic nerd. Him, he's into that stuff. That's a cool character. If you're that type of star, maybe Johnny Blaze is not the comic book character that you choose to play. but that's the one that he wanted to

15:22Bill Simmons:De Palma we've done this is number five there's a few things left on the bone what do you what do you really I have long term Scarface we haven't done yet Carlitos Way we haven't done yet and there's one other Dressed to Kill Dressed to Kill we haven't done yet yeah

15:37Sean Fennessey:I think that's the big three that are left

15:39Bill Simmons:so I found a we haven't done Carrie oh we haven't done Carrie wow I found a 1998 premiere magazine where they interviewed him about Snake Eyes and it was a Q &A And the question was, your leading men often seem ineffectual, dwarfed by insurmountable obstacles. De Palma's like, yeah. Here's his answer. The establishment kind of overwhelms the protagonists in my movies. And it's like the tar baby. It's very difficult to beat. You keep sucking it, but you just keep on getting another limb sucked in. Jesus. De Palma. Fucking weirdo. I love this guy.

16:17Sean Fennessey:He is the best. He's just a maniac. I think of all the directors that are out there, obviously he's a really important director for New Cinema. His movies are the ones that I feel the closest to. He's a freak like you. Yeah. I'm glad you said it. He's a freak. His movies are the ones I feel closest to.

16:41Bill Simmons:It's almost like one of the... I was going to have this in one stage to worse. One of the most disappointing things about this movie is he kind of suppresses his freak. A little bit. when we're going over the hotel rooms 1970s early 80s De Palma would have had some crazy fuck scene in one of the rooms this was like mid 50s De Palma like I don't need to do that anymore at this point though aren't we at the point where De Palma is most flirting with mainstream cinema yeah he's coming out of Mission Impossible

17:09Sean Fennessey:I think he's on the mountaintop I mean this is really the highest the pinnacle of his commercial appeal as a filmmaker but you think that that might have like muted his desire to show some of that stuff. He flirts with it, right? Like, there are ladies in the movie that their sexuality plays a big part in the film. But there's a little bit of holding back, to me, of that stuff that some of the movies that he made in the past, obviously, like Scarface, is just like, just... Well, trust the kill. We did body double. I mean, you know. But in this, you can feel those urges being rolled back a little bit for the sake of...

17:47I want you to see the story and how the story shakes out. I feel like we're doing something really smart.

17:52Sean Fennessey:All the movies are about, they're not about the women and they're not even about having sex with the women. They're about men watching the women. That's what all the movies, they're all about voyeurism. So the movie is still like that. It's just that like, I guess the women don't take their tops off in this movie, but for the most part, it's just the same thing.

18:08Bill Simmons:It should be a PG-13 or an R. I think it ended up, they said fuck it and went for R. Speaking of that, when were we doing Femme Fatale?

18:15Sean Fennessey:Well, I would argue that's his last great movie. I know. which one? Femme Fatale that's a couple years later yeah

18:20Bill Simmons:he saw something in Rebecca yeah yeah look you always know when it's his film I think that's the it's like we always Sean and I would always talk about back when back when our fingers used to work when we'd see other writers and you could cover their byline and you knew who the writer was

18:38Sean Fennessey:it's the best feeling

18:39Bill Simmons:I know who that is right De Palma like you know I know how the camera's moving

18:43Sean Fennessey:as soon as the camera starts moving and you see what it's once what it's looking at then you can tell. He's always going to take

18:49Bill Simmons:one big long shot swing at some point. Just to kill he does it.

18:55Sean Fennessey:This one might be the granddaddy. Which is why I always thought I mean looking back on it he was the perfect director to get the Mission Impossible franchise started.

19:06Bill Simmons:Well he agrees because it allowed him to do movies like Snake Eyes because it did well and he made money from it.

19:11Sean Fennessey:It's still shocking to me though how that worked. How so? Because he never made anything even close to that scale of a movie. Scarface is a big movie, but it's only got like seven characters in it. And him being able to pull off the tunnel scene at the end of that movie is stunning. Oh, just the set pieces, the action. Yeah, the scope of that movie is so big. But I still love the original. It's so good. And it's the hideous one of all of them. Some people would argue that the movies became more and more ridiculous from a plot standpoint.

19:41Bill Simmons:What's your favorite diploma? Ever? Yeah. Carlito's way. what's yours Sean?

19:48Sean Fennessey:It's probably Blowout. I mean we talked about it on the Blowout pod which I just think is like a perfect movie. But that whole stretch.

19:56Bill Simmons:I respect Blowout the most but I enjoy Scarface the most. I fucking love Scarface. Scarface, we haven't even done it on rewatchables because it's like I don't want to waste it yet.

20:05Sean Fennessey:I know. All those movies are great. Carlito's Way is great. There's like a 15 year period where he is unmatched and being able to make a sequence in a movie. His sequences are so cool.

20:15Bill Simmons:You know why I can't have a baby with her, Manny? Her womb is so polluted. Keep going. Yeah. But like Scarface, so the reason why I like Carlito's Way, I can't say that I like Carlito's Way more than Scarface, but the reason why I'm more connected to Carlito's Way is because Carlito's Way feels like Al Pacino and De Palma and Sean Penn together doing an actual thing. Scarface is legitimately take the reins off somebody, let them fucking go until they can't go anymore. It is like something to behold. And while Carlito's way, there's actually really, really deep themes of connection and betrayal, like recidivism.

21:05There's bad hair. Yeah, I just, I feel real. Me being a more mature.

21:09Sean Fennessey:I love Penn's wig in that movie. It's so good. Dave I love that character Craig when we do Carlito's Way

21:19Bill Simmons:between Sean, Chris and Van if it's a three person pod we should have some sort of reality show competition where two people can make it and the third one just gets voted off somehow

21:30Sean Fennessey:the running man bowling at Lucky Strike

21:34Bill Simmons:wow you want to have a bowl off? a bowl off to see who gets the two spots

21:38Sean Fennessey:there's an incredible Carlito's Way homage in this movie

21:41Bill Simmons:well here's the other thing the long shot which i think is the signature from a rewatchable standpoint it's it's so amazing how they do it and he's never really said that it was 12 it's 12 straight minutes yeah he's never really admitted it was all 12 straight minutes so then in this premiere magazine thing they ask him about it um and he says the movie starts on the boardwalk the shot establishes nick cage's character as he wanders to the arena and the blah blah it's a steadicam shot that goes on for about 12 minutes then he says one continuous shot can really only be the length of a 30 and 35 mm magazine a 400 foot load in bonfire that was one five minute shot we went as far as we could go of course you can make it look longer like hitchcock's rope have somebody pass in front of the camera keep going need artful staging and very good actors so i think he's saying it was five minutes and they figured out some sort of cheat code and you could I was watching it again and you can see like I think it's four cuts you can see it ultimately he rounds the corner

22:43Sean Fennessey:one time on the wall you can kind of tell down at the fight floor they do it once yes he definitely is cutting but the staging of the scenes even with the cuts is crazy because of the size of the sequence he's in a freaking arena doing this it's amazing

22:58Bill Simmons:Guzman goes down the escalator at one point and you're like how the fuck did they do all this the camera going around that corner yeah

23:04Sean Fennessey:that is just wild I mean looking back on it when I watched this because I hadn't seen this in a while this is a technically really impressive movie yeah I agree one of his most impressive it's one of his least interesting thematically I would say it is very relevant right now which I'm sure we'll talk about but unlike Dress the Kill or Carlito's Way it's not like a heady movie about the way that people really feel in the world you know it's kind of trashy it's like a trashy noir movie but he's using it as this vehicle to do all this cool shit

23:33Bill Simmons:Nick Cage does say one interesting thing though at the end when he was like, basically he was like, well, at least I get to be on TV or whatever. There's something about celebrity going on in the late 90s that I think De Palma was interested in, but he didn't really hit it hard enough. Yeah, the movie is good, and it's one that I really liked when it came out. It's not quite as smart as it probably wanted to be. It needs like 10 more minutes, weirdly. Sorry, Craig. 108 minutes might have been able to nail it. There's some sort of thing about instant celebrity and the most interesting part of the movie to me is the fall after where it sets him up as the hero.

24:12Bill Simmons:And then you're just like, hey, by the way, he was found with cocaine. And then all of a sudden he's just on the boardwalk and he had his moment and it was gone.

24:18Sean Fennessey:But I think that's a reshoot, which we can talk about why. But I don't think any of that stuff is supposed to be there in the first place. And you could have made the case that if they had thought about it more, that they could have made it more this arc about leaning into what you want out of celebrity in life, which is like a part of that character. There's other ideas in it that are kind of interesting about conspiracy thrillers, but it's more like the classic De Palma stuff of being about other movies. Like this is very much, you mentioned Rope in that quote. He's constantly being compared to Hitchcock, who's this great inspiration.

24:48Sean Fennessey:And he's always like looking for a way to take a framework that Hitchcock has and then elevate it. So he has some movies, you know, like Obsession from the 70s with Cliff Robertson is kind of like this. I find Raising Cain is kind of like this. Yeah. Where they're like more exercises than they are great movies where he's like, let me see if I could do this. And they're still crazily entertaining, but you don't walk away from them with the same feeling that you do as like Dress to Kill or Blowout. The movie here is like surprisingly straightforward. Yeah. Like the things happen, right? You find out that Gary Sinise is your bad guy.

25:26There's no levels to that. That just continues to play itself out. It's revealed and then goes. It's revealed and then it goes. And there's not a lot of, oh, my God, I did not see that coming in the movie at all. That's why the technician part of the movie is so important, because you need that to keep the kinetic energy of the film going. It's kind of like what's going to happen next from your eyes and not what's going to happen next from your brain. So it's like what the next thing you're going to see rather than the next thing that's going to happen plot wise. Real quick, where are you on Bonfire of the Vanities?

26:04Sean Fennessey:I don't think it really works very well. Yeah, it's not good. I do think that sequence that he's talking about is interesting. That long tracking study cam shot that they do, but it's totally gratuitous. He's just a mismatch with the material. I think if you had a different filmmaker make that movie, even if you had Scorsese make that movie, it would be a little bit more interesting, but I never get the impression he's interested in that world.

26:24Bill Simmons:That's why there's been books and podcasts and everything else done about that movie because it was such a great piece of IP. And then every actor they cast was wrong. He was the wrong director. Yeah. It's pretty tough. Every five years, I forget that it's bad. I'm like, oh, you know what? I'll give this a whirl. You're going to defend it. Here we go. I always liked it. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. My bad, guys. Hanks is bad in it. It's weird. He's also miscast. Yeah. He's just not good in it. I always liked it. I think I was at a time in my life, you were destined to like it. Yeah, where it was like Willis, Hank, Melanie Griffith, like all in a movie together, being like that entire.

27:09But remember also, I liked, you know, at that time, anything set in New York and that whole, who's that girl, Madonna, love the movie. So like, I just, I've always liked it. I've tried to go back and watch it and find reasons to like not like the movie, but I always go, oh man, I like this.

27:23Bill Simmons:Well, that came out in 90. After that, it did Raising Cane, Carlitos Way, Mission Impossible Snake Eyes. It's kind of over after that. Like he didn't really have the commercial movie after that. That's kind of the end of the run, which is interesting because it's also the end of some sort of, it's some sort of invisible line with the end of the Nick Cage run, even though we didn't know it yet.

27:42Sean Fennessey:He says something, he did, I read a couple of interviews with him around this time. I wanted to read this to you guys. Something he said right around the release of this movie. He said, I think that something new is coming. I really think that the conventional movie making world is over and the greatest work is behind us. I really do. The industry sort of peaked in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, mainly because of the turmoil, wars, all that stuff, European influx into Hollywood. That was the beginning of movies, and it's over. It's never going to be again. I think the next thing that's going to happen is going to happen on the internet with interactive media.

28:12Sean Fennessey:Now, you can have all this video technology, your own little video camera, and edit stuff at home. You can make movies like novels now. You really can. You can make them inexpensively with your friends and put them on the internet.

28:22Bill Simmons:Wow, and he didn't even see the prestige TV coming. But he basically nailed 95 % of it.

28:27Sean Fennessey:That's 1998 when he said that.

28:29Bill Simmons:He was early, but he was definitely right. Also, his whole class, which we've talked about before, that there's been books written about with Spielberg and Lucas and Coppola, all of them are kind of hitting the end of some sort of road, right? Scorsese is about to transition into his 2000s, which were really interesting.

28:46Sean Fennessey:He's about to take off and become kind of the winner of this coming moment, which is really interesting because De Palma, for a period of time, was kind of big-dogging a little.

28:53Bill Simmons:Lucas is transitioning into, I'm just going to redo the IP I did before. I'm just a corporate god. Spielberg has his crazy minority report. He's moving into that post-Saving Private Ryan world. De Palma kind of doesn't know where to go.

29:08Sean Fennessey:He demands a lot of control on his movies too. And you can tell that he's not able to convince people to let him make the stuff he wants to make. I mean, he's only made four movies in the last 25 years.

29:20Bill Simmons:Some more stuff to talk about this movie. We're going to take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. Let's talk about holiday shopping. Make the most of your money with PayPal. They give you the flexibility to pay in for. No fees, no interest, and save the offer in the PayPal app to get 5 % cash back when you pay later. So whether you're shopping for an ugly sweater or a work gala, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday. All you have to do is save the offer in the PayPal app. Expires 1231. See paypal.com slash promo term subject to approval. Learn more at paypal.com slash paying for PayPal Inc.

30:00Bill Simmons:NMLS 910457. A couple of actor stuff to talk about this. Evil Gary Sinise. That's great stuff. So I was thinking we were one evil Sinise movie away from evil Sinise month. We could have done Reindeer Games, Steak Eyes, and Ransom. We already did Ransom. You want to re-ransom? I got to say I love Ransom. We could have evil Sinise did. Is Ransom the peak of evil Sinise? He is an evil son of a bitch. So I was going to ask you, what's the most evil Sinise? I think it's Ransom. I think it's Ransom.

30:28Sean Fennessey:You dropped a Reindeer Games in there, huh? Reindeer Games is in there, but Reindeer Games is not as...

30:33Bill Simmons:I like Reindeer Games, unfortunately. I like it too. That's a guilty pleasure movie for me. But that was a DVD classic for me.

30:40Sean Fennessey:That was a DVD classic for a while. We got to do Frankenheimer Month. You know, 52 Pickup. Oh, wow. Get that going. There's a lot of Frankenheimer stuff.

30:46Bill Simmons:But like... What is it about Sinise, though, that you just make it like, oh man, this motherfucker. He's got that thing. Even at the end of Ransom where the kid hears his voice and he starts peeing himself, Gary has that thing, that intensity, that face where he can go from somebody because he does this in Ransom and also in this movie. He goes from a face that you're supposed to trust and then as soon as the turn happens, he is legitimately a face that you can revile in one thing. And like... And Gumpy does the flip. He feels like he's evil and then you root for him. And then he flips it again.

31:25He's like, he can do either thing so effectively that it works in movies.

31:32Sean Fennessey:Who is the modern-day Gary Sinise? There is... I mean, these kinds of actors who are like... He was pretty much a star. You know?

31:39Bill Simmons:Academy Awards. Because he had the Apollo 13 piece too. And Gump, he's the third leading. And Gump, he became so famous.

31:44Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I mean... That's a really interesting thing where he's got this incredible stage background. He transitions to Hollywood and he gets cast in big Hollywood movie after big Hollywood movie, whether he's the hero or the villain. And he's not a heartthrob. No. He's not always the villain, right? He's not like JT Walsh or something. Right.

32:04Bill Simmons:He is... No, he feels like he's a little more

32:07Sean Fennessey:leading man-ish. But he's like that really weird blend between character actor and leading man, right? Where like he could carry a movie. It's probably not ideal if he's carrying your movie. But if he's in the number two spot, like in a movie like this. He's Scottie Pippen. It's probably going to be good. Yeah. It's like he is a super duper talented like backup quarterback. Right, right. To where... The Jeff Hostetler of movies. Yeah. To where you kind of don't know like what to do with them, but he can definitely be a crazy addition to your team if in fact he has to carry the team.

32:38Bill Simmons:What's your Sinise relationship, Craig? Dump and Apollo. See, he's a good guy in those movies. Yeah.

32:46Sean Fennessey:But just a really awesome, steady, like, side character who, yeah, is good and everything. I like Gary Sinise. Yeah, I don't know who it is, though. Who's, like, that guy who can then be the bad guy and stuff like that. But you know what? Can I tell you something? The American character actor of that ilk, like, you've talked a lot about, I think it's an interesting observation about sort of the next great Italian-American actor that can, like, you know, You're talking about Leoto or the rest of these guys and Robert De Niro and all of these. But just the stalwart American character actor, who are those guys now?

33:25Sean Fennessey:They're on TV. Yeah. I mean, it's not something movies are even sold on anymore. There are plenty of them. I'm sure there are plenty of them. Sinise is an unusual one. I was just thinking of one of my favorite Sinise parts. He's Stu Redman in The Stand adaptation, which was on TV in the 90s. And he's, you know, I always love that. That's kind of my bonfire of the vanities where I saw it in an age where I was like, this is my favorite thing of all time. If you watch it now, it's a little harder to sit through. But he's so good as Stu in that series. Yeah. But that movie is still terrifying to me.

33:53Yeah, I loved it. Who's the guy that plays Randall Flagg in that one? Jamie Sheridan. Another stage actor.

33:57Bill Simmons:Jamie Sheridan. That's a miniseries, but that's still like a haunting, terrifying, weird movie. Sinise is good because it's like, he's a stage actor. He didn't really want to get into Hollywood, but he really loves, and he really takes it. And then like 10 years later, it's like CSI New York with Gary Sinise. didn't he do that show for like 10 years there's semen on the bed

34:18Sean Fennessey:get the blue light well money's good right everybody likes money at some point everybody's like yeah fuck it CS7 New York sounds great if you look at him William Peterson yeah like a lot of those guys ended up finding their homes on shows like that they're trusted faces that let you know that a procedural or something like that is a serious piece of art and who came up playing cops and detectives and movies and then they transitioned. Yeah.

34:45Bill Simmons:And then they killed movies. Did you read the Peterson interview for the 40th anniversary of To Love and Die in L.A.? Your guy Bill? Yeah. He hasn't acted in 15 years. They asked him why. And he's like, because I've done everything. I don't need to do anything anymore. I want to hang out with my kids and my grandkids. I live in Chicago. I have a great life. That's nice. I played every part I've wanted to play. I respect it. Yeah, I loved it. I respect it too. I was like, you do your thing, William Peterson.

35:07Sean Fennessey:I just kept... He gave us Manhunter. Manhunter, fantastic. like I just kept waiting for the role or the moment I guess J.K. Simmons is one of those actors that we were talking about I kept waiting for the role I kept waiting for the J.K. Simmons moment like the later in life oh yeah a big supporting part the I'm in whiplash now you gotta continue with me so it wasn't fair with Mark Wahlberg for you no it wasn't it wasn't I fuck with that movie it's pretty good it's very hard I mean people keep hearing me saying it's very hard to mention movies that I really don't fuck with Well, like 1991 to 1997, it's kind of like, yeah, they're all good.

35:44Sean Fennessey:They really are. I would go all the way to 99. Yeah, yeah.

35:48Bill Simmons:I was watching the last hour. I was doing some work and I wanted to put on something, so I was flipping cable and Fight Club was on, which we've already done. And I was watching the last hour of Fight Club kind of half-heartedly as I'm doing football stuff. And then I just started watching the last 15 minutes and then it ended with the Pixies song. And I was like... Legitimately a brilliant movie, though. And things are blowing up and he's staring out the window and where is my mind comes in. I was like, man, we used to fucking make great things in this country. We don't even have the nuts to make that one now.

36:16The movie interrogates too many things. I mean, it's a nuts movie. If they made it, it would probably be a little overwrought, a little too self-serious. That movie's winking at you a little bit in a way. It's very faithful to the book too.

36:27Sean Fennessey:I don't know, man. What, Eddington won battle? These movies are pretty angry and pretty much about what's going on. Like it happens. It just doesn't necessarily happen in the same way. They are, but they're, and there's, there is a specific great movie there's a specific critique and question that Fight Club asks that would turn so many people off now it feels like like the whole the whole conversation around masculinity the fact that hurting people makes these guys feel there would be a thousand really annoying think pieces there were then I mean it was not it didn't have the warmest reception yeah fair enough I guess I was part of one of those things I was a very angry 17 year old that came out and I was like this is clearly the greatest film ever made you know like this there will never be another better movie than this I've had like a weird relationship to it over the years but maybe you could cite that movie as kind of like the end of an era in some ways like it is it is 99 it is kind of like closing the book

37:22Bill Simmons:Y2K really did shift us from here to here and it's hard to explain

37:28Sean Fennessey:not literally not the computers

37:30Bill Simmons:it just felt everything felt slightly different after Y2K and I don't know why and the 9-11 was the other big catalyst but it just that late 90s just felt like something.

37:40Sean Fennessey:When Snake Eyes came out, I was like, every movie will be cool forever. You know? To go see a movie like this in theaters, you're like, yeah, of course, this was pretty good. Snake Eyes came out the same weekend

37:49Bill Simmons:as Halloween H20 and Saving Private Ryan came out the week before. It was just like, that's kind of what we did back then, Craig. I was just so into movies. Yeah. I was in, I was at City Place, so I was just in the movie theater. My man, Stefan worked there. Stefan was hooking us up with the tickets. like it like i would he was stephan was the man but like i was just so into movies i was found myself there all the time at that point and i think that it used to be that it was like you could just make a movie and cool was the barometer it's just cool yep it's just it's just like you make a i was watching so i married an axe murderer yeah uh like all-time classic like a couple weeks ago i'm like would they make this movie now a movie where it's what they it's just a i mean there's a whole mtv type of ecosystem because you have the making of the movie type of deal

38:45Sean Fennessey:mike myers i have a take about this would they make that would they make just a cool story now that didn't like so i married that would they make that one thing i'm really surprised hasn't happened because we've talked about many times over the years the snl to movie pipeline on pods how there has not been a streaming movie pipeline for SNL actors where you're like, oh, this person's kind of, like, Chloe Fineman's kind of got something. Yeah. But maybe doesn't need her own TV show. But maybe let's give her a$20 million Netflix movie and see what happens. I mean, they kind of did this

39:18Bill Simmons:with Please Don't Destroy and it was on Peacock and it bombed.

39:21Sean Fennessey:But that was supposed to be a theatrical movie that Judd Apatow produced and then, like, it didn't turn out and then they put it on streaming. I'm talking about, like, shouldn't there be, like, a little division? You have a thing where he's like… Right now, he's a perfect example. I'm like, that guy's just funny. You can tell he's funny. He could carry something. Make it low stakes. Summer of an Axe Murder isn't the greatest movie of all time. But it was like… It was a road tester.

39:41Bill Simmons:But this is the problem with comedies now and why horror movies have… Just keep ascending and they just have not figured out comedy at all. The way that we had them in the 90s. Because now it's… You just put them on Netflix or Amazon or whatever. Just take them at bats though. No money. Let these young guys take some at bats. They don't want to take the at-bats. I'm with you. I know we got to get back to Snake Eyes, but I will say about that particular movie. Wait, what are we talking about? I know we got to get back to Snake Eyes, but I will say with that particular movie, if you look at the movie, right, and it's Mike Myers doing his thing, it's almost like a pilot for Austin Powers.

40:14Yes. Because he plays the dad. He's singing the— He's going to cry himself tonight on his huge pillow. Yeah, the whole nine, right? Son, heed! Heed, move! He's doing all of that stuff, and you're like— It's a virtual planetoid. and he's seen the Ross Stewart song it's hysterical and it's almost like proof that that guy can play those characters in a movie that it works as proof of concept and it's kind of like they don't do that anymore they overthink everything

40:43Bill Simmons:we talked about this with Dirty Work they're just like Norm MacDonald we'll figure it out we don't need a full script yet Chris Farley said he'd be able to have two days on the set we'll figure it out I think they spend too much time overthinking what do you think it is Craig I mean part of it is your generation's fault

41:00Sean Fennessey:yeah you guys killed comedy yeah well we're trying to bring it back I think that SNL doesn't cast the same type of people anymore is also part of it like they're not I don't think there's a lot of people who are trying who are like character actors on SNL anymore yeah like it is it's rare that they bring somebody in who can do like 10 different characters it's not really like what they do anymore so I don't even think the pipeline is set up to work because it's completely different casting now yeah

41:25Bill Simmons:Shane Shane could have done it. I mean, Shane doing Tires is basically like a 90-minute comedy in 1993. That's it.

41:31Sean Fennessey:That actually replaced his movie, his dirty work.

41:35Bill Simmons:Yeah. Back to this. Incredible pivot. We never talked about Carla. Who's going to go first? Goddamn.

41:45Sean Fennessey:This is a real Venn diagram for Bill Van Sean. Yeah. This is one of the real like...

41:51Bill Simmons:You know, we've talked about this. We've got to be professionals.

41:54Sean Fennessey:We met on a cold, dark night. this conversation stays between us. Get a deep Reddit board.

42:00Bill Simmons:Look, man, sometimes people just don't find the right... Sometimes they just don't find the right roles. And there's... We talk about like in the 70s and 80s, it was just because they didn't have good roles. In her case, the role... I just... I don't know whether it was her fault she couldn't read the scripts. They didn't know which ones to do. No director saw what was sitting there.

42:24Sean Fennessey:I'd love to know how many great roles she finished in second place. Right. And you guys gotta think, man. We're talking about, first of all, I wanna say she's had a fantastic career. Great career. Very successful. In the 90s, what we're talking about, we're talking about the rise with Julia Roberts as a stranglehold, but then right under Julia, there's Sandra Bullock. There's Cameron Diaz.

42:49Bill Simmons:This is... But don't forget the Friends thing, and it's like, if you put her on Friends as Rachel, I think she's like an A-plus lister. She's never had the one thing. But all of this, though, this is a crowded, crowded feel. True. And she took the Sarah Jessica Parker, when she was in Miami Rhapsody.

43:07Sean Fennessey:That's exactly who I was going to say. I was like, Sarah Jessica Parker had the kind of career she could have had. She could have been.

43:13Bill Simmons:Could Carla have been the Carrie Bradshaw?

43:15Sean Fennessey:Definitely.

43:16Bill Simmons:Because the thing about her is she could be in a rom-com. She could be in a movie like this. I think she could have been in an early 80s De Palma movie. like she could have played the Debra Shelton character in Body Double and every guy was in love with her devastatingly fun and I thought she was a good actress and she's funny like at the end when she's turning on the charm with Nick Cage and you're like this guy's a fucking loser why do you but I believed it

43:42Sean Fennessey:yeah there's a hot moment there where both Carla Gugino and Connie Britton were on Spin City and I was like what is happening Connie Britton's another one think about how long it took for Connie Britton

43:54Bill Simmons:and then it was Coach Taylor and it's like oh yeah Connie Britton she's arrived

43:58Sean Fennessey:she's just I'll just be very frank just insanely hot in Snake Eyes like it is insane how hot she is at least to me in this movie and it is weird because she's like still working and doing really good work but there are a few people we've talked about on the show over the years where you're like one turn of the dial and it would have been a different career Right. You see her now. She's in the Mike Flanagan stuff a lot. She's doing a lot of different stuff. She's a presence and a deal. But once again... Yeah, it's weird.

44:29Bill Simmons:The last seven, eight years was probably the best run she's had from an IMDb standpoint.

44:35Sean Fennessey:Well, she had Karen Sisko. That was supposed to be a big TV show. That didn't pop.

44:39Bill Simmons:She was in the Cameron Crowe roadies, that Showtime show. That didn't work. That seems like it should have. Once again, it's somebody that you always feel like is, who's having a great, great career, but you feel like is one role away from that next echelon of stardom. Like, she probably was looking at Aniston like, I could fucking have her lunch. Could kill her. I'll be honest with you. I'm looking at the list of roles here. It's very varied. she took Miami Rhapsody is a movie that I love that a lot of people have seen it's a really fun movie it's a really fun movie she's really good in it

45:17Sean Fennessey:Carla Gutierrez she's great Sarah Jessica Parker Antonio Banderas it's kind of like freewheeling Jeremy Piven story of love and relationships that takes place in Miami it's like really interesting there's some Amanda Peet parts

45:31Bill Simmons:she could have played that's a good comp too it's just I just think you're right I think it was a loaded comedic actors with dramatic chops draft class yeah right and then you know later on, her career just keeps trending. She's in Sin City, which is a role that I really, really enjoyed from her.

45:47Sean Fennessey:Did you? Yeah. That was... What did you think was the best part? I thought she brought a lot to the table in Sin City. Like, a lot. Anything specific? Some things were unexpected. But I liked that it happened. If you guys want to just get into the whole thing... It's a good film with some good scenes. It's funny that she never had...

46:05Bill Simmons:Even if she'd put the Ellen Pompeo part in Old School, with some sort of thing that just was like on all the time for 25 years. She never had that movie. She did for my wife

46:16Sean Fennessey:which is True Beverly Hills. Oh, come on.

46:18Bill Simmons:Interesting. Yeah. To Eileen,

46:21Sean Fennessey:she'll always be the girl from True Beverly Hills. I know you love it.

46:23Bill Simmons:Well, in this movie, she tests missile results for Poway Aircraft. Speak on True Beverly Hills. They're building a... Which one? Speak on True Beverly Hills. I want your opinion. I haven't seen it in 45 years. Classic. Whatever. Yeah. Beverly Hills, whatever. Can we talk about how Carla was testing missile results? Yeah. I'm just kidding.

46:43Sean Fennessey:Give her this special category.

46:46Bill Simmons:We don't get to give out much. The Elizabeth Shue is an Oxford electrochemist award for most ridiculous casting. I was hoping that would fall to me.

46:53Sean Fennessey:It didn't, damn it.

46:54Bill Simmons:That category. That was going to be yours? Yeah, of course. Oh, my bad, Craig. Sorry. I knew it was going to go. What does, because I always bring this role up when we do this one. Denise Richards as. that could probably be the title nuclear physicist her name is Dr.

47:12Sean Fennessey:Christmas Jones I remember she's on Jay Leno and Jay Leno goes nuclear scientist Dr. Christmas Jones and she goes I can play a scientist like what when we do this is this category what do you need to play a scientist I think it's more her age is the issue she's a 26 year old missiles explorer they're so specific about it She's like, I'm 26. You could have been 31. Why are you 26? It's very strange.

47:43Bill Simmons:We also have a very crowded that guy and graduated that guy group. Is this the that guy movie of the 90s? There's been others, but... It's a good one. Louis Guzman, Stan Sean, John Hurd. Mike Starr, who's the guy who dies from eating the peppers and dumb and dumber and was in a million mob movies.

48:02Sean Fennessey:Great pull on that being Mike Starr.

48:03Bill Simmons:Kevin Dunn who was that guy from Dave who was the dad in Mad Love and was just in a lot of 90s movies and then Michael Rispoli who was Grandma on Rounders in this in the same year and going for The Sopranos

48:20Sean Fennessey:and finished

48:21Bill Simmons:the second in Gandolfini tough 98 for Rispoli

48:24Sean Fennessey:he must have really felt like the world was right in front of him I'm in a Brian De Palma movie I'm in this exciting movie with Matt Damon and Edward Norton I'm gonna be Tony Soprano and he ends up as Jackie right yeah he ends up as Jackie so it's like but it's it's crazy you missed one Jannard Burks you know who that is

48:45Bill Simmons:which one was that so in Devil in a Blue Dress remember the movie Devil in a Blue Dress he plays in the movie I'll never forget this it's one of the great cookings in any movie that's ever happened in Devil in a Blue Dress it takes place easy goes over to this guy's house and he has sex with his wife while the guy is sleeping. Do you remember this? Yes. Lisa Nicole Carson in the other room. Continue. Yeah, he has sex with his wife while the guy is sleeping. That's this guy? He's like, because he says to Lisa Nicole Carson's character, he goes, your man is sleeping in the other room. She doesn't care.

49:31She's like, he's so drunk. he's knocked out and then they do it and Gennard Burks plays the guy that gets cooked shout out to him he's been in a lot of stuff but

49:38Bill Simmons:well there's that girl in this too that girl from Devil's Advocate the black witch lady oh yeah she's in the first scene oh yeah what's her name she's the announcer Tamara Tooney is that her name I can't remember yeah what's her name written by David Koepp who apparently is the fourth most successful screenwriter ever by box office he wrote Jurassic Park among many other movies War of the Worlds Carlito's Way Mission Impossible Spider-Man. Also directed seven movies that weirdly the trigger effect, stir of echoes, secret window, they're all kind of the same weird, strange movie.

50:13Sean Fennessey:He's had an amazing career. He is considered one of the geniuses of screenwriting. Have you guys done the trigger effect? No. Would you do the trigger effect? Probably not. I like it. Another movie that came out in the 90s where I was like, the concept alone is so cool to me. Elizabeth Shue. another actress that's right there crowding up grabs leaving Las Vegas yeah crowding up the space wow for Carly Guggen like another I'm telling you it's a deep deep deep she got boxed out we could have had At First Sight you know with I don't know was that that was another one Mira Sorvino she was also in there Mira Sorvino I'm telling you there's a lot going on Gwyneth Paltrow I'm thinking of the saint making trouble towards the end there's like a lot of people Craig you know what

50:54Bill Simmons:At First Sight is no it's a drama that's now comedy okay Val Comer's blind, but there's an operation where he can get his sight back so he can see things for about 30 minutes in the movie and falls in love with Marisobino. But guess what? The surgery had after effects and he's going to lose his sight again. And now he has to decide what's important to him. And they go to a hockey game at one point. Why don't we do dramas that are now comedy month? I have it. I have it. I've done all the work. It's a regarding Henry driven month. I saw At First Sight

51:25Sean Fennessey:in high school on a first date with a girl. who loved it and I broke up with her after that that was it it's a true story you're over it regarding Henry as unintentional comedy is going to be a really interesting movie to do

51:42Bill Simmons:there's another one for dramas that are now comedy month that I might be the only one that thinks it's funny but Legends of the Fall is hilarious now

51:49Sean Fennessey:I haven't seen it

51:50Bill Simmons:in a long time that was like a very serious drama that is now like laugh out loud funny man that's just another movie in the never ending chapter of my mama's white boy thing. Because every once in a while, my mama would say something that would really piss my dad off. You want that to be a month fan? Yeah. My mama's white boy thing? My mama's white boy thing. My mama would watch Legends of the Fall and be like, I told you about the Thelma and Louise story. Yes. Yeah, my mom goes. Your mom like Brad Pitt. We're the friends. She goes, I just saw the finest white boy I've ever seen before in my life.

52:18And then she's watching Legends of the Fall and she just says, he keeps getting finer. I don't understand what's going on. My father could not handle it.

52:27Bill Simmons:Just think, when she went to see Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, did she go? No, she didn't see it. She's over it now. She's militant again. $73 million budget for Snake Eyes. It made$103.9 million. And our guy Raj. Oh, no. He one-starred it. Oh, no. I think this is only like the fourth one-star we got from Raj. He said, it's the worst kind of bad film. The kind that gets you all worked up and then lets you down. Instead of being lousy from the first shot. Damn. Yeah, settle down, Rush. Come on. He loved the steadicam shot in the beginning, and then he just thought it fell apart. Man, oh, man, oh, man.

53:06Interesting.

53:07Bill Simmons:Yeah. He gave Halloween two stars, and this movie one star? Yeah. Sometimes Raj would just be in a bad mood. Cranky.

53:15Sean Fennessey:Yeah, cranky. This is a tough review.

53:18Bill Simmons:Oh, you read it? Yeah.

53:19Sean Fennessey:Yeah.

53:20Bill Simmons:It's a tough one. Most rewatchable scene. It's brought to you by The Home Depot. Black Friday, happening now at The Home Depot, which means it's the perfect time to add to your collection. And right now when you buy a select battery kit from top brands like Ryobi, Ryobi, Ryobi, Ryobi, or Milwaukee, you'll get a select tree for free with Black Friday deals like these. The Home Depot has got you covered. We mentioned for the first rewatchable scene, the opening one shot. In the running for best overacting of Cage's career, because I was made for this sewer, baby, and I'm the king! he's just screaming for no reason it was like an Ace Ventura moment for me like when I sat down to watch Ace Ventura it took me 10 minutes to be like yo why is he acting like this and then you got it Tyler when you saw Nick Cage in this you was like yo what the fuck is going on is he supposed to be on cocaine yeah

54:12Sean Fennessey:well there's the cocaine my ass line at the end of the movie I think indicates he likes to indulge in this fight night I think it's reasonable to assume that said Cage is kind of like this in a lot of movies

54:22Bill Simmons:yeah this is a 9 and a half out of 10 on the cage scale.

54:26Sean Fennessey:He's nuts, yes.

54:27Bill Simmons:An all-time dial-up by him. Really cool scene.

54:31Sean Fennessey:It's great when you can see him nailing the synchronization with the crowd. Like, there's a moment when he is watching the fight and he stands up and as he stands up, and he yells something and then the whole crowd stands up behind him where it's like, that is, to get that many extras to work at the same time is master filmmaker A plush it. That's not CGI, all those people in the crowd. that's like hundreds, maybe thousands of extras. I think it helps

54:59Bill Simmons:the rewatchability of the movie too. Totally. Because it's like, it definitely like, how the fuck did they do this for 10 minutes?

55:05Sean Fennessey:Also very skilled. He's going back and forth between the girlfriend and the wife on the gold flip phone, the pizza with the wife, the birthday with the girlfriend. Yeah. And they let you figure it out, right? They're not like over explaining everything. You just, the movie just drops you into his world. You get like one second of setup and then we're going.

55:23Bill Simmons:The shooting scene itself is... Pretty good. When he watches the video, the knockout punch, where he realizes it's a Sonny Liston situation, right into Carla wiping blood off in the bathroom, which I just put in for Van.

55:40Sean Fennessey:That scene alone, I think is worth spending some time on. That scene alone, yeah. Just right there. Just the angle that he chooses I think is really interesting. Gotta get the blood off. Once again, De Palma-esque. You keep thinking that he's gonna go for it, that there's a change of clothes happening or something, I admire the restraint I admire the restraint as well as regrettable as it might be

56:00Bill Simmons:the next scene I wrote down Stan Shaw and Nick Cage scream at each other it's an all time Ruffalo, Hannah, Rubenick, Partridge combo overacting award they're just screaming for two minutes

56:13Sean Fennessey:yeah I'll come back to that

56:16Bill Simmons:flashback to the redhead pulling pulling Sinise away from the fight that whole I like when De Palma goes backwards always fun the elevator chase the overhead shot of the Atlantic City rooms I'm throwing in the Malie Rubin Award for did this movie need a better sex scene here I feel like one of those rooms could have had some freaky Atlantic City shit going on T 'Polm was like you know what I'm older now I'm wiser I'm not gonna put that in it's more important that frat boys spray beer on each other in a hotel room that's bizarre yeah that was weird Carla tells her story to Nick Cage on the staircase and I thought I'd get fired, not killed.

57:00Bill Simmons:De Palma goes split screen as she's telling the story. I always liked how De Palma would use boxes and split screens. I just feel like not enough directors do that. I agree. They say multiple things at the same time. By the way, even when the Dodgers won the World Series, I would have gone split screen, multiple boxes, so we can see three different things happening at the same time. They always discount. Our TVs are better now. What do you think? things. Like for the Dodgers. No, like we see the people on the mound celebrating, but then they split screen and we also see the people in the dugout celebrating.

57:31Sean Fennessey:I got to give a shout out to my friend, John DiMarsico, who directs the Mets broadcast because this has been written about many times, but he's a huge cinephile and in the baseball broadcast that he directs, he constantly is using all of those. Oh, really? He has like huge, he's a huge De Palma fan, has all kinds of De Palma. Just Google him and look up all the stuff he's done. You'll just be watching a Mets game and he'll just pull a move from Scarface in the middle of the Mets game. Yeah, it's really cool.

57:57Bill Simmons:That's the fuck I'm talking about.

57:57Sean Fennessey:That guy sounds like your soulmate. He is the man. Does he hate his sports life like you do or no? I don't think he has as tortured a relationship to the Mets as I do. He sees them as a vessel for his creativity, much like De Palma sees Carla Gugino and Nicolas Cage.

58:10Bill Simmons:He almost got passed by Errol Hawane this weekend because he almost had the back-to-back days of the Blue Jays losing the World Series than the Bills blowing the Chiefs game.

58:18Sean Fennessey:Yeah, well, Ariel and I share the Knicks.

58:20Bill Simmons:Yeah, and you had the Halberton game in May.

58:22Sean Fennessey:Thanks for reminding me.

58:24Bill Simmons:Awesome. Great stuff. Cage finds the hidden video of Sinise. The classic, you're like, oh, man. You just have your back to that door for too long. We're going to see the legs going down this thing. There it is. It's Sinise. I really like when bad guys explain why they did what they did. And you're kind of like, I see his point. Yeah. Yeah. He's trying to save the country. You feel like Sinise has a point. He's trying to save a country with something that doesn't really work. He's a bad guy. But at least he seems a little conflicted. But I think he's just a good actor. He seems a little, as he's telling it, he's like, I know this is kind of fucked up, but here's how we got to this point versus like, I'm evil.

59:08Sean Fennessey:Is he just rationalizing his own greed? Totally.

59:12Bill Simmons:Totally, but I bought it as he was doing it. I was like, okay.

59:15Sean Fennessey:It's also, you guys see House of Dynamite? This is a plot point in House of Dynamite where it's like, this technology might not work. You know, it's like there's only a 50-50 % chance of these, you know, anti-ballistic missiles.

59:27Bill Simmons:I saw the first episode of House of Dynamite. I didn't get to the second episode yet.

59:31Sean Fennessey:Okay.

59:32Bill Simmons:I saw the part. It was about to get to where the bomb was, and then the credits came up. So I just, I'm going to wait until next week to finish it.

59:39Sean Fennessey:Okay, let us know when you finish the season. Yeah. It's not, I mean, it's not that good. It's really not. Curses again in the second one. He isn't cursing the first one.

59:49Bill Simmons:By the way, Nick Cage smoking in this. the Sean Penn I brought my own pack award for excellence in on-screen smoking underrated smoker Nick Cage yeah smokes in a lot of movies just kind of could have it dangling in the right way

59:59Sean Fennessey:I would say very believable almost as though he has partaken we also

1:00:02Bill Simmons:Vane we get somebody says the name of the movie in the in the dialogue love that you got nothing kiddo snake eyes the house always wins great you did it love it you worked that Cage runs it back too at the end runs it back yeah there's no we Kevin you got snake eyes with the chest suicide, which we don't see a lot in the action thrillers. I have some notes on that. I love it. You like the chest suicide? I think it's smart. Open coffin.

1:00:32Sean Fennessey:But he's like, I have to turn my back. He's such a sick fuck. Open coffin. You don't even get credit for the shit that goes on in your brain, man. Chest suicide. You don't see it in an action mood. You think he'll be getting like a really a formal military funeral after his actions

1:00:53Bill Simmons:and then last but not least the fall of Richard Santoro which happens for reasons we'll discuss later what's your most rewatchable scene Sean Steadicam

1:01:01Sean Fennessey:so the opening scene is no question the best scene the most memorable scene in the movie for me Gugino notwithstanding but I do like all four flashback sequences or basically all all of the POV sequences so you get you see it through Rick Santoro's eyes in that opening scene. You see it through Tyler Lincoln's eyes when he's telling his version of the story. You see it through Kevin Dunn's eyes when he's telling his false version of the story. And then you see it through Julia Costello's eyes, Gugino's character, when they're sitting on the steps. You know, it's an obvious homage to Rashomon and a lot of movies about the failure of memory.

1:01:36Sean Fennessey:But you mentioned it when you were describing them. Like every time he goes back, even though we're seeing something that we think we already know, he manages to turn the key just a little bit differently, which makes it to me a huge improvement on a movie like House of Dynamite which does a very similar thing way worse. Yeah. And there is a way to do this kind of storytelling and make it very exciting. I don't love how this movie concludes. Find the final 10 minutes a little tough. But everything leading up to that I think is really engaging. So the open is obviously like you're saying the best stuff to me.

1:02:08However, the specific scene where Gary Sinise he turns bad and you see that he is really bad not turns bad you actually see what he is. for me is was just way more compelling than I remember it. Yeah. In this particular time where he's executing his accomplices and all of that stuff. To me, it just, it worked a lot better. Like after that, that's a real turning point in the movie to where this guy embodies scumbag asshole. Well acted, very high leverage. So that really worked for me.

1:02:39Sean Fennessey:Do you guys buy them as old friends? Oh, good question. They have different energies. They do. And they needed something else. There needed to be their old friends. Yeah, cool. We get it. But there needed to be something else that undergirded their friendship. Are we supposed to believe that they were in the service together? Either that or like high school. It said that they were friends like childhood friends. But did they all did? Was Nick Cage's character? Did he serve? I couldn't figure that out. Garrison East's character has such a faith in his ability to come work for like the State Department or something like that it's almost as if he knows that he has a set of skills that can be useful on the federal level because of something they did together yeah

1:03:26Bill Simmons:that was today's most rewatchable scene brought to you by the Home Depot time to check out the Black Friday savings at the Home Depot so go online or in store to check out the best deals of the season stock up on tools for all your upcoming projects Black Friday savings happening now at the Home Depot This will be fun. Next category. The most 1998 thing about this movie. I have a couple nominees for you. Okay. Huge heavyweight fights in Atlantic City. This was my number one. Yeah. The 90s were like Atlantic City was the place for nine years.

1:03:57Sean Fennessey:And then it died. This was right in the heart of Tyson Holyfield. Yep. When those two fights. Foreman had a couple there. Yeah. Yeah. Those two fights were right in that 96, 97, 98. And Vegas was making a very direct move to become, like, not just a place where you gamble and have, but the actual entertainment capital of the entire world. There was a very direct corporate move to Vegas. And that's what ended up happening to Atlantic City. Vegas just had the support of all the big hotel chains.

1:04:26Bill Simmons:Vegas got it back in the early 2000s. The fights all came back. Yeah, I mean, at the end of it, it started to be, like, you couldn't have a big fight in AC anymore. You couldn't be out there. Nick's 1998 cell phone.

1:04:40Sean Fennessey:That's the other one I wrote down. The gold embossed flip phone.

1:04:43Bill Simmons:That's the most 98 thing ever. It's like you couldn't even fit it in your jeans pocket. I also have people caring about the defense secretary. What do you mean? Pete Hanks said this in the news every day. Just people like, oh, he's here. He's at the fight. It's like, in 1998, I would not have cared the defense secretary was in a fight. I have people clapping for the defense secretary. Still a situation to where people went, hey, somebody high up in the government. Yay. The only other one I have is at some point, one of the characters says, we got a goddamn Columbo around running loose. You know who Columbo is?

1:05:21Sean Fennessey:Only because of Poker Face.

1:05:23Bill Simmons:Okay.

1:05:23Sean Fennessey:Oh.

1:05:25Bill Simmons:Wow, so Columbo hasn't trickled down? Not really. That's a good show. Need Kathy Bates to bring him back. It's a very enjoyable TV show. What age is best for you? One more thing. If so-and-so is having it, and you're watching it, and you're like, ah, you're fucked. Columbo knows. I like Quincy. I was a Quincy guy. Never saw that. The doctor? Coroner. MD. Yeah, Quincy MD. Of all of those detectives, if you're in a draft of TV detectives, what do you got? The Teddy Savalas? Kojak. Kojak. Kojak. You got Kojak. You got Matlock. It's Dan Tannen from Vegas is the answer. Dan Tannen. Robert Yurk? He got down.

1:06:04Bill Simmons:Even his assistant was hot. Got down? He was just surrounded by the ladies. That's not what we were talking about. That's my favorite one. Who's the best at solving crimes, you freak? Oh, Quincy. Because Quincy could use coroner shit. He was a cop who could also do autopsies of the victims. Like, nobody can beat that.

1:06:21Sean Fennessey:That's a crazy activity for a TV show. It's not enough to just be a detective. You also have to be a coroner.

1:06:27Bill Simmons:Every once in a while, he would look up at Sam, his assistant, and go, It wasn't suicide, Sam. It was murder. Okay, just different situation, because one guy is legal and the other guy is medical. Yeah. But as far as doctors, who are also somehow detectives, do you have Quincy or House MD? Because House MD... House MD was good. House MD was look into some shit and give you... House MD was the man. House MD was good. Did you like House? Didn't watch it. No interest. what's the best an athlete falling into debt and having to do something illegal oh shit wow I wish that wasn't topical right now yeah Jesus yeah there's a couple of these you're going to be able to cite hey man talk about the mafia man don't just talk about the players show the mafia oh yeah those are my people you want to talk about the mafia I don't really want to talk about them as much what do you have for what's the best Sean

1:07:27Sean Fennessey:interesting how you kicked it to me I mean, this is a very topical film right now, right?

1:07:33Bill Simmons:Let's do that part later. Okay. Yeah, I have another spot for that.

1:07:39Sean Fennessey:I think the Maestro movie is like a thing where it's like, let this guy cook. Like, we're only making this movie because this guy knows how to make movies feel fucking awesome. Like, this is something that is also kind of gone now from movies. but as I said like this is maybe the 10th or 11th best Brian De Palma movie but it is one of the most watchable movies of the 1990s and it is only that way because he can see the movie in his head and he makes it so special in the style that he has so I don't know there's just not that has aged nicely we don't get those as often as we used to I have the moment

1:08:21Bill Simmons:in action thrillers when we realize someone we thought we knew is the bad guy there's always that like in this movie he's Sinise's walking the hallway and he kind of somebody's going ahead and he kind of stops and he looks around and you're like oh no it's you you're the bad guy and he just gets on his phone but those moments are always fun Sinise as a bad guy we talked about did we have another acceptable loss like acceptable losses yeah I've been a good fantasy team name in a word for the random guy who didn't do anything wrong in an action thriller but has to die anyway we might have to consider for this next batch when we do our 26 in this case the guy who thinks he's getting laid by Carla and takes her up to the room and that guy just gets shot with a silencer it's like did that guy do anything wrong?

1:09:12Bill Simmons:that's what's aged the best to me what? that guy getting murdered? asshole Josh Gatt being used by I thought the same thing I forget that guy's name. He was on Malcolm in the middle. It's not Josh Gad. It's not Josh Gad. It's pre-Josh Gad. It's pre-Josh Gad. It's Gad before the Gad. Yeah. Pre-Gad. That guy being used by a hot woman for her own thing. Yeah. Thinking that he's the man. I never understand. So you're that dude. Shout out to the Josh Gad guy. Josh God. Yeah. Josh God. You're that guy. I call him Gad too. You're at AC. Yeah. One night. Carla Gugino for some reason shows interest in you it's over

1:09:53Sean Fennessey:yeah she's wearing a white mini skirt and a black bomber jacket that's zipped up with only a bra underneath and she comes up to you and is like yeah let's go up to your and you don't in any way

1:10:05Bill Simmons:do you have air conditioning I do yeah right you don't in any way think what's going on I can make it really cold like what's the deal cause there's guys that guy just knows he's hot he came to AC to fuck and now it's about to happen Whatever happens in AC in Vegas.

1:10:20Sean Fennessey:He's not a very nice guy, that character. He's not a very nice guy. When she's like, I'm in trouble, he's like, get the fuck out. He puts his wedding ring back on very pointedly. He deserves to die with a silencer? So here's the thing, though. He's not a nice guy, and the wedding ring thing is fucked up. But him actually, at the moment that he realizes that it's not going to go down, putting some distance between him and her, that's smart.

1:10:43Bill Simmons:Yeah. Hey, I don't want there to be any type of, like, you know what? You're not down. Let's end the night right here. Well, what's aged the worst for this is now in 2025, you just assume this woman who's all of a sudden randomly interested in you is going to drug you in your room and take all your stuff. Yeah. Because there's been a lot more awareness of that the last 25 years, especially in Vegas and in the Atlantic City.

1:11:04Sean Fennessey:It literally happened to a friend of mine. I will not say who that friend is, but that literally happened to a friend. New Orleans? In Las Vegas.

1:11:12Bill Simmons:I blame him. Here's one for Sean. I'm not casting any blame. Here's what's the best for Sean. De Palma Easter eggs and pivotal moments that we circle back to. You're watching this live for the first time. Here comes the pain! Here comes the pain! And it's basically the owl in Blowout. It's like, man, he's really interested in this owl. And then it's like, oh, he's... John Travolta's character is going to watch this video. And it's like, oh, there's the owl hooting.

1:11:41Sean Fennessey:Before he says that, though, we do see that he's wearing an earpiece. And that's a dead giveaway that something is up. That he's fucked, yeah.

1:11:49Bill Simmons:Dirty cops who decide once and for all nobody's going to buy me anymore. I always like that in the movie. I've been bought for one last time. I'm trying to think of another time that I've seen that. I just have to mention a Palestinian sniper terrorist assassinating someone over their cooperation with Israel is topical in 2025. It is. I'm going to move on. Snake Eyes was the last Brian De Palma film for which Steven Spielberg viewed the rough cut. It's an official end of the group. Oh, they're not fucking with each other anymore. And they just kind of got old. It's like college buddies who don't really talk anymore.

1:12:25Bill Simmons:God damn. Are you telling me that there's an end to the Bill Simmons-Joe House run coming?

1:12:29Sean Fennessey:Wow. Never. Wow. No. So I will say De Palma is interviewed in the new Martin Scorsese doc, Mr. Scorsese. And he's great in it because he's known Scorsese for 60 years. But he's still a little competitive with him, and you can tell. yeah

1:12:44Bill Simmons:like how come this guy got five parts my documentary is a hundred minutes when when when I was getting into movies and I just thought those guys' relationship was so awesome I think Spielberg comes on the set of Scarface and he's like do this do that all of that stuff and then one day like all things it must end it's over

1:13:02Sean Fennessey:it is cool though that it's like let me just call it my best friend who's also the the greatest living filmmaker and he'll just help me on one day that is fucking awesome yeah like this is the way and then that scene becomes fucking but it's also like a testament to the collaborative nature of these guys and you know

1:13:20Bill Simmons:it's like when Craig asked me for advice for the fantasy football show I just pop in like Spielberg cut this move this around Heifetz quiet down have you ever thought about Heifetz maybe not doing

1:13:30Sean Fennessey:so Craig the Spielberg in this in this analogy like a Soderbergh the pump yeah

1:13:35Bill Simmons:I have one last what's age the best Trump who I think would have whored out his Atlantic City casino for just about anything in the 90s being like, eh, this is a little rich for me, this whole evil casino owner. So can you make that the Powell Millennium instead? And they don't use the Trump.

1:13:53Sean Fennessey:Yes.

1:13:53Bill Simmons:Very surprising that he did not allow them to use this.

1:13:55Sean Fennessey:Or that he didn't appear in the film himself. Yeah, that's the real surprise. You would have thought he would have starred.

1:14:00Bill Simmons:Yeah, so something must happen.

1:14:02Sean Fennessey:John Hurd, though. Love John Hurd.

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1:14:39Bill Simmons:So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 in your first campaign on LinkedIn ads. Get a$250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash rewatchables. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Pure Michigan. In Grand Rapids, every moment feels like a scene worth replaying. Every riverside stroll, every slow afternoon, sipping small batch brews, every guitar riff drifting out of the city's brand new amphitheater. this is a place where everything feels cinematic like you've stepped into a highlight reel that's yours to explore ranked as the number one city on the rise from LinkedIn, Grand Rapids invites you to find a rhythm all your own season after season in pure Michigan find your season at experiencegr.com Hey, it's time for the Sean Fennessey Award for stealth homage that gives every movie nerd a criteria orgasm

1:15:38Sean Fennessey:One of the great categories on this wonderful show So my favorite is the scene when Gugino and Cage are sitting on the staircase. And there's an overhead shot of the staircase and showing you all the levels of the stairs. And it gives you this sense of disorientation, which is a direct lift from Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo. There's a scene near the end of the film in the chapel where we see Stuart looking down the staircase and feeling this sense of disorientation. And obviously De Palma, I think Vertigo is his favorite movie of all time. and also one of the most perverse movies ever made about, you know, wanting to have sex.

1:16:14Bill Simmons:I want to actually do it for rewatchables in 2026. Because that movie is full-fledged, off-the-rails bonkers.

1:16:22Sean Fennessey:It is the, like, origin point of so many of our favorite movies and favorite directors.

1:16:28Bill Simmons:It would be hilarious if they just released that movie in, like, March with Sidney Sweeney as the Kim Novak character and they just gave nobody any context. people would be like, what the fuck is happening in this movie?

1:16:41Sean Fennessey:I mean, I will kill myself if that happens. And yet, I would watch it. Like, I need to see it first and then kill myself.

1:16:48Bill Simmons:What'd you have for Great Shot Gordor Award for most cinematic shot? I had the overhead AC rooms. That's a good one. That long shot, just because I always think about like, how'd they do that? Did they have to build all these rooms one by one on a set? Did they have to match it with the casino?

1:17:06Sean Fennessey:I think it's all sets that they've built. There's a recent example of that in John Wick 4. There's a very similar sequence where they enter an apartment building and it's the entire action sequence takes place overhead that is fucking amazing. But I would not be surprised if they looked at this to do that. It's long. Have you seen that sequence? Yeah. Where he has the fire gun? It's crazy.

1:17:28Bill Simmons:Apparently in episode 4 of House of Dynamite, there's something like that. I haven't seen it yet. In front of my screen. screener.

1:17:36Sean Fennessey:My cinematic shot is when Carla Gugino falls to the floor and her glasses fall on the floor and the camera's all the way on the bottom of the floor and it's just looking at the glasses and you're like, oh no, somebody's going to step on those glasses. And then, crunch, somebody steps on the glasses. Mine is there's a sort of pretty long shot through a cracked door at the party. With the two guys talking, yeah. In there where it starts with a bunch of hot models smoking crack it looks like yeah it's smoking crack cocaine which i didn't realize in tyler's room yeah and so but there's a long and it stays there for a second and you look like you're watching something that you're not supposed to be watching so it puts you directly and i like when the camera or the style of the movie puts you in an emotional like situation you're like is that bobby brown out of nowhere

1:18:32Bill Simmons:new edition getting back together Chess Rockwell Brocklander's award for best character name Lincoln Tyler the AC Executioner that's pretty good AC Executioner's really good

1:18:41Sean Fennessey:I do think the main characters names are really good in this movie Detective Rick Santoro Atlantic City PD and Commander Kevin Dunn US Naval Service Commander Kevin Dunn

1:18:53Bill Simmons:and they had a Kevin Dunn in the movie but they didn't change the name of Commander Kevin Dunn So there was the actor Kevin Dunn from Dave, but then there was a character Kevin Dunn too. Must have been confusing. What do you have for a flex category, Sean?

1:19:06Sean Fennessey:I chose the I Used to Fuck Guys Like You in Prison Award for craziest quote. It's kind of more of an exchange, but it's very fast. It starts with Kevin Dunn saying, how's Angela? And Rick Santoro says, fat, fabulous, fantastic. I love her. Then Commander Kevin Dunn says, how's the other one? What's her name? Candy? And Santoro says, oh, Monique, skinny, mean, expensive. I love her. that's just a great moment in this movie. That's a cage cooking. Yeah. The line reading is perfect and sums up what an asshole this guy is.

1:19:38Bill Simmons:The Butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film. Well, let's talk about the title wave. There's supposed to be a title wave in this movie that ends the movie. It was filmed by industrial light magic. You can see some of it online because the original ending or part of it is in there. and for some reason they bail on this in the post edit do the different ending but it explains why when you're watching this it's thunder it's rain people are looking up the movie begins with them talking about a storm and then there's no payoff and I have no idea why they cut it.

1:20:14Sean Fennessey:He has talked about how he ultimately didn't feel that this is what this movie was about. It wasn't a spectacle movie it was a movie about that intrigue that Van was talking about at the top.

1:20:23Bill Simmons:But how did they not know that before they committed to this tidal wave thing.

1:20:26Sean Fennessey:I think that they weren't happy with how the tidal wave looked. You can watch the tidal wave sequence on YouTube. It's on YouTube. It is okay. This is kind of getting into my hottest take, but I think my hottest take is that it's significantly better if you put the tidal wave back in, even what's existing.

1:20:42Bill Simmons:That's why I have it as the weak link. I don't know why they took it out. It's like we danced toward it for 90 minutes, and then it just doesn't happen. The movie just deflates.

1:20:50Sean Fennessey:And also the Kevin Dunn self-assassination, you know, it's just weird. Like, that whole moment is very strange. Where he turns his back to the camera and then does the...

1:21:01Bill Simmons:Put the gun down! We know who you are! It's like, how do they know who he is? I think the movie ending with the tidal wave is, to me, like, a natural evolution of the chaotic nature of the film.

1:21:12Sean Fennessey:Yes, the escalation. Yeah, to where something just kind of, like, random or not so random, but something that's been building comes along and sweeps everything up. Totally agree with that. You pro-tidal wave? Pro-tidal wave. Yeah. I think even at the very end, like the cage and Kajino on the beach, like the kiss, it felt like very outside what the movie was. It felt a little too buttoned up and rom-com-y. Yes.

1:21:35Bill Simmons:What's age the worst? I think if you made this movie in 25, there would have been all the cameras. They would have been trying to, they would have figured out so many weird things about this assassination. Why did this girl in the white dress with the blonde wig go? And it fell off. And who is this? And we would have had all of these people. Are you arguing that... No, I'm saying just 1998, you could get away with an assassination thing like this at a fight and not have people... They didn't even know that blimp thing was there. Oh, know who it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, obviously.

1:22:06Bill Simmons:This whole assassination thing made way more sense in 1998, I think, than it would in 2025.

1:22:11Sean Fennessey:It's an insanely elaborate plan. Right.

1:22:14Bill Simmons:With a lot of people and pieces. With a lot on the line, like at this particular time, it's almost... There's... One of my... picking this is that there's a more efficient way to do what it is that they want it to do. Yeah, why does a boxer have to take a dive for them to kill this guy in the front row?

1:22:30Sean Fennessey:I don't fully understand that. Obviously, enlisting the Palestinian to be the trigger man, but then immediately killing the trigger man is very, you know, shades of JFK, obviously, in this. And then also, I don't really understand Carla Gugino's character's plan either. Like, why does she have to use this event to go talk to the secretary of defense? Simpler, much more straight-to-the-point way of everyone getting what they wanted to get accomplished in this movie.

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1:23:44Bill Simmons:Van, you're up with the Flex category. My Flex category is Van Lathan, How Would You Have Gotten Out of This? oh yeah which character are you playing so i'm rick santorum okay and so you have a wife rick

1:23:57Sean Fennessey:santoro or santorum excuse me santorum i was thinking about political you should be rick santorum in this in this story as rick santorum so you have a wife and a girlfriend that you have to explain where you've been okay it's like something's going crazy there's all this stuff going on but you haven't been home you're not really on the phone anymore you have a wife and a girlfriend is two completely different ways. So you have to call Angela and Monique. Angela and Monique because they're both calling you and they want to know what's going on. The wife is Angela, right? Yeah. So you talk to her first and you let her know that, look, honey, I don't know if you know.

1:24:31What's the homeboy's name again?

1:24:32Sean Fennessey:Commander Kevin Dunn. Yeah. Man, Kevin, this guy is not who I thought he was.

1:24:39Bill Simmons:Yeah. All right, Kevin, not coming back to Christmas, baby. No more. No more Kevin. Kevin is like one of the most. You know how he picks up, he plays with the kids, he does all of this stuff? That's not the guy. This guy's a killer. This guy's an asshole. She's on the other end of the phone like, I always told you there was something about him that I didn't like. I saw the darkness in him. I could look at him and I could tell that there's just something wrong about that guy. And you're like, baby, you were right. You were right. This guy's out of our life forever. Look at my face. Look at what happened to my face.

1:25:10That was him. He had the heavyweight champion of the world assault me. Baby, you were right about him. Totally different situation with the girlfriend. The girlfriend's name again is Monique.

1:25:20Bill Simmons:Monique. Where have you been? I haven't talked. Hey.

1:25:25That's not how our relationship goes. What did Jay-Z say? Our time together is our time together. Our time apart is our time apart. So you love Rick with your mind and not with your heart. I got a whole family. You don't call me and ask me where I've been. That's not what you do. Now, I will tell you this. the rooms at this hotel in AC are amazing. So if in a couple of days after this all blows over, you want to come check this out, that's cool. If you want to have some fun, that's cool. But I got kids and a family and a wife. Don't call this phone no more after 1030.

1:26:01Bill Simmons:Wow, a clinic on how to deal with the gumar.

1:26:05Sean Fennessey:One thing I really like when he's talking to his wife early in the movie is she's asking about what pizza order they should do. Yeah. And he's given her the details about what's on the different pizzas. And he's like, I don't fucking know. I'm not going to be eating it. I'm not going to be home. You know, it's a very relatable fight. Also, why does she, can his wife not order a pizza? Why does he have to bring the pizza home at one in the morning? Fucking order a pizza yourself. But that's the kind of, that's what he got in the heat of man of his family. That's what he got going on. You know what I'm saying?

1:26:36Maybe y 'all let y 'all women have free reign to order pizzas and stuff like that.

1:26:41Sean Fennessey:But not Rick. I feel like since we know that Monique is skinny, mean, and expensive, she might push back a little bit on Rick's attempt to manage that scenario. Yeah. And we know his wife is, to use his words, fat. Yeah, and fantastic. So it might have been a late-night pizza for her.

1:26:56Bill Simmons:She might have already had dinner. Might have been her second pizza of the day. We're going to take a break and then do Hottest Take.

1:27:04Bill Simmons:All right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford Hottest Take Award. Sean, did you do yours? So I said the tidal wave would have been a much better ending, But I do think the less classy the material,

1:27:15Sean Fennessey:the better the Brian De Palma movie. So like, obviously we talked about Bonfire of the Vanities. Very classy novel adaptation of a Tom Wolfe book. Not a successful movie. The hot take part is that I just don't think The Untouchables is very good. And it is like the classiest of the De Palma movies. And it's never been one of my movies. I've never really cared about it. I don't think it's that interesting. and I would much rather watch Blow Out or Dressed to Kill or Body Double or this movie than The Untouchables. Now, do you think those movies are better or do you think The Untouchables kind of sucks?

1:27:53Sean Fennessey:I don't know if it sucks. Like, it obviously is so well made. I just find it kind of dull.

1:27:58Bill Simmons:Mm. You agree. We did it on Rewatchables. There's some... It's got the De Niro stuff that I love. It's got the Costner. Like, I like it more than Sean. I get it. I get his take. It's just... If a different director had made it, I think you would like it more.

1:28:14Sean Fennessey:That might be it. It's like, I'm like, this is a missed opportunity. Like, switch this. Like, two directors should trade again.

1:28:19Bill Simmons:You're watching Jason Kidd in the triangle offense going, what's going on? Give this guy the ball and let him go. So, yeah, that's kind of the thing, right? When a director like him with, like, De Palma plays it safe and straight up and down the line, it kind of weighs on you a little bit. And that is a very... It's like when Van goes on CNN.

1:28:38Bill Simmons:I'm a rabble rouser on Cine.

1:28:41Sean Fennessey:You did the glaze moment. The glaze moment. That was good. You did do the glaze. That was really good. Do you have a hottest take? I do. It's not a better movie, but it might be a more interesting movie if the leads roles were reversed. Yeah. Sinise as the hero. Sinise as the hero in this, and Nick Cage sort of playing up. But Nick Cage dialing it down and Sinise dialing it up. Can Sinise pull off that shirt? Maybe not. But maybe you get something. Maybe Sinise wears, you know what he could pull off? A notorious big B.I.G. Versace type joint.

1:29:21Bill Simmons:Oh, yeah, the sweater. Get him a little louder and stuff like that. I thought you were going to go Travolta Cage reunion. Oh, that works too. Where either of them could have played either part. But you know what? Travolta can dial it up.

1:29:33Sean Fennessey:He could have been Kevin Dunn, I think. Because he's got the General's daughter in him. We know he can wear the uniform, right? General's daughter, you've seen that one? Oh, yeah. It's an unfortunate film. As I saw the movie, I kind of felt like in this movie, at a certain point, Cage was doing what he was doing. Yeah. And Sinise was doing what he was doing. That was what I was saying. They had different energies. They're kind of like not really on the same wavelength in this movie. Right. If they would have switched it up, each guy would have subverted something, and it might have been a little bit more interesting.

1:30:02Bill Simmons:My hottest take, Nick Cage, number one guy all time you could cast in any part of a Vegas or Atlantic City movie. He could play all the parts. He could be a blackjack dealer, cop, crooked cop, gambler, bookie, fight fixer, pimp, security guard. Name anybody that works in a casino, Nick Cage could play that part.

1:30:24Sean Fennessey:Great take.

1:30:25Bill Simmons:It's the only one that I can't think of anybody else you could say that about. Also, it can be the everyman that kind of gets is Girl Stolen by James Cullen. Could have been in the car with Vince Vaughn and Jon Favreau, younger Nick Cage. That's like the third buddy. Being like, Vegas! Could have done everything. Great takes. Casting with Ifs. Wow. De Palma offered Sinise's role to our guy, Al Pacino. Oh. Who turned it down. Who, uh...

1:30:58Sean Fennessey:Would have been... Would have needed an older actor. to play the other part if you do that, right?

1:31:05Bill Simmons:I was with Rick Santoro half an hour ago!

1:31:11Sean Fennessey:He, of course, is the original utterer of Here comes the pain!

1:31:18Bill Simmons:And then, this is where You want me big time?

1:31:21Sean Fennessey:You're gonna die big time!

1:31:23Bill Simmons:This is where Carly knows where it's so good. It's so good. I've been with made guys, connected guys. who you been with Vin this casting what if is gonna break your brain okay let's see offered Sinise's role wouldn't take it because he wanted 20 million and they offered 12 our guy Will Smith decided to do Enemy of the State instead we all won good movie yeah good two winners I'm glad he did Enemy of the State I like Enemy of the State look at the incestuous Enemy of the State he takes because Tom Cruise turned it down who worked with De Palma This is how movies go. Like, the whole nine. Interesting movie with Will Smith in this movie, man.

1:32:06Bill Simmons:Also could have played either part, but I think him as Commander Kevin Dunn, Will Smith never played a part like that. Right. Actually. Would have been really interesting. I would have believed him as the cage with friends, too. He never plays sleazy guys either. Never plays sleazy, never really plays villain. So, like. He needed a couple of those, man. He really did. Give Will Smith the fucking 20 million. It was 1998. 98. He was the most bankable under 40 guy that we had. Bad job on them. It's a long line. Best that guy award. We went through all the candidates. I think it's Michael Raspoli even though we know what his name is.

1:32:47Bill Simmons:I think he's the most that guy of all the that guys.

1:32:49Sean Fennessey:I have done Raspoli and Mike Starr. I think those are like elite that guy actors. I have Burks just because Denzel fucked his girlfriend in the other room while he was sleeping in Devil in the Blue Dress. Who do you have for DM Waiters? It's the first I'm hearing of this. Who do you have for DM Waiters? Carla's not eligible. A woman named Jane Heitmeyer who plays Serena the Redhead, a.k.a. the blonde, who is my pick for the CR. I would throw my life away for her. There you go. Wow. She's just... I was going to say,

1:33:21Bill Simmons:a diploma movie with the redhead and gambling and... There's a lot of things that check Sean's boxes. Very comfortable movie for me, yeah. It's like a warm bath. She's like a prototypical Dion Waiters in this role. Yeah. Like prototypical. I'm down with it. Recasting couch director or city. Can we talk about Stan Shaw being a little bit too old to be Lincoln Tyler? Isn't it? He was going to be my weak link. He's like, looks like he's 47. Now, we did have older champs at that point. Like Foreman was older. But if this is...

1:33:53Sean Fennessey:He seems like he's almost 50. But if this is Michael Clark Duncan or Ving Rhames, aren't you like, yeah, I buy that. I like seeing him as a boxer. He played a boxer at Harlem Nights. All that stuff. I love him as an actor. But when you watch it, I know he's supposed to be a little bit older, but he's jarringly a little bit older in this situation. Like jarringly old to me. It's two years too early,

1:34:19Bill Simmons:but this would have been a great 50 cent part. Two years too early. because he wasn't 50 Cent yet. That came out in like 2000. I don't know if he's tall enough to be a heavyweight. I was trying to think. It felt like a good stunt casting. I don't think we need a real actor.

1:34:31Sean Fennessey:There's just not a lot of actors who could credibly play a heavyweight.

1:34:34Bill Simmons:Yeah. You have to be tall. By the way, he didn't have to be a heavyweight. He could have been a welterweight or a middleweight. It didn't really matter. That's true. You know? You know, I guess, but at that time, during the 90s, there's probably a reflection to the fact that we only really, really at that point in the 90s, were really super caring about heavyweight boxing. The only guy that was really drawing someone at the lower waist was Delahoyal.

1:34:56Sean Fennessey:And the executioner is obviously modeled on Tyson in a lot of ways, right? They're like, hasn't been knocked out in 28 professional fights. And I saw him in the gold gloves.

1:35:03Bill Simmons:Honestly, they could have just cast Tyson. I always like it. I have something later on. But I always like it in these movies where they go with actual fighters. This role is a little bit maybe too much because then you got to act.

1:35:18Sean Fennessey:He's got some real scenes with Cage. Yeah But like when they get Like a real fighter Somebody Ving Rams He could have done it

1:35:24Bill Simmons:He could have done it He could have done it Could have kicked the tires Maybe call Wesley Snipes His agent Being like Too small of a role for Wesley 98 Too small of a role for Wesley In the late 90s Late Same year Yeah Too small of a role for Wesley Craig you still have Your flex category or no?

1:35:40Sean Fennessey:A lot were swiped I was gonna bring up Lincoln Tyler I got the Elizabeth shoe For Gugino Also like Why did she have to wear That wig and dress Why didn't she dress super understated? I don't understand why she looked like that. That makes no sense to me. Yeah, she could have worn like a hat and a brown wig. Baseball hat. Doesn't make sense at all.

1:35:58Bill Simmons:This one might not go over well. I don't know about the title of this movie. I don't think it has anything to do with the movie. I feel like Snake Eyes is more of a casino term. There's no dice in the movie. It's about boxing. I just thought Snake Eyes didn't make any sense. I feel like we could have had a better title. Call it Fight Night.

1:36:13Sean Fennessey:Well, Fight Night. It's a double entendre. Fight Night's a good title. Double entendre because it's like… House always wins. No, but Sinise is the snake. He's the one who you think he's one thing, but he's actually the opposite. He's luring you into his trap, and he's a predator. Everybody loses. Everybody comes up snake eyes. The house always wins. Who is the house? There's no real casino gambling. It was the missile defense system, which eventually gets pushed forward, which we learned about. So Gilbert Powell, who is at the seat of power, wins as power always does. That's the house. That's why I said I don't think it would go over well.

1:36:46Get your head out of your ass, Craig. I'm just saying. Craig, I like this. Stay woke. I like when Craig sags. So what's a good title then? Fight Night. Oh, you did say Fight Night. Fight Night's good. Fight Night works. Everybody's fighting their own battle. Sure.

1:36:59Bill Simmons:Yeah. Apex Mountain for Cage, no. De Palma, no. Fixed boxing movies? Dix Town. Ooh. Rispoli. Rispoli, yes. I have Rispoli. Carla, no. Atlantic City as a viable destination for a movie like this? Yes.

1:37:21Sean Fennessey:Now, I think the answer to that is the movie Atlantic City. The Louis Moll movie. With Burt Lancaster, Susan Sarandon. Which is an amazing movie. But this would be number two for me.

1:37:30Bill Simmons:You know that movie? Never saw it. That's a throw your life away Susan Sarandon performance. What era are we talking about? 1981? Yeah. That's her throw your life away era. For sure. She's very attractive in that movie. That's another movie that's gone. that's one of those 80s 90s movies there's no record older guy character piece no it's like gone oh people don't watch it yeah yeah no I think it's like doesn't exist I think it's one of those that's just out I have thoughts about the older guy character piece I love those movies I love them

1:37:58Sean Fennessey:I love a movie where it's like this guy's 63 but they won't do anymore it's all slipping through his fingers because the older guys they want to be too young they want to be too young this is the problem you know

1:38:07Bill Simmons:Criterion the the the the streaming app which is really good and every month they change the movies and they'll have some that haven't been streaming for a while.

1:38:18Sean Fennessey:Their programming is amazing on that service.

1:38:20Bill Simmons:Them and AMC are the only ones left that would have a movie like Atlantic City. But for the most part, they're just gone. And I don't know whether it's like a rights thing but it's really frustrating, especially for this show because there's movies we can't do because they don't exist. Revenge of the Nerds is gone. Do you know like, this is interesting that we're talking about this. Like a month ago, like I'm at the crib and I was just like, I want to watch The Mac. You seen The Mac? Yeah. I want to watch The Mac. I could not find The Mac to watch it. Bernie Casey? No. The Mac is Max Julian as...

1:38:57That's what it was. Yeah.

1:38:58Sean Fennessey:The closest you can come is watching them watch it in True Romance. That's what Drexel Spivey is watching on the TV, right? Yeah. You see, I know I'm pretty. But I'm not pretty as a couple of titties. So that one's gone. Yeah, the Mac. Couldn't find the Mac. Wanted to watch the Mac. Couldn't find the Mac. Watch Settle for Superfly. As always, I'll just say by physical media, you will always have access to these movies. Yeah. That is true. Some of them.

1:39:22Bill Simmons:Oh, Atlantic City is. You can rent it. I can rent the Mac somewhere. Great. Recommend it. It's a good movie. That's the wrong one. I bet my mom and them got it. They got to have it in Louisiana somewhere. I know we got it somewhere. Atlantic City. Oh, anyway. All right. Moving on. This summer, FanDuel is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uh-huh. Balls. Yep. Hitters. is worth more on FanDuel. So let there be goals. New customers get$350 in bonus bets guaranteed when you bet$5 for seven days. 21 plus in present and select states. First online real money wager only. Minimum$5 wager required for seven consecutive days.

1:39:54$5 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets which expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at fanduel.com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Oh, Apex Mountain. How about this? Yeah. boxing matches in non-boxing movies in a movie that's not about boxing trying to think what else is in there like in a movie that's like Pulp Fiction

1:40:21Sean Fennessey:we don't see the fight at all like think about it this movie is not about boxing normally boxing matches come in movies that are specifically about boxing or about the sport it's a very good call there definitely has got to be another example there's got to be yeah You should prep Sean. Now I'm going to just be haunted when I forget.

1:40:43Bill Simmons:He walked through his own Criterion closet just looking for a boxing movie.

1:40:47Sean Fennessey:Well, there's a lot of movies in the 40s and 50s like this, right? Like, the harder they fall is technically about the 50s version with Bogart. It's technically about fights, but it's not a fight movie, but there's a fight in it. There's got to be a good example of this. I can't think of it.

1:41:04Bill Simmons:Yeah, I'll think of it about nine hours from now after the pod's already done. Stan Shaw no I do like Stan Shaw yeah he's awesome I think he's a little miscast in this oh Hunter he's too old but I think I was trying to think what his he's been in a lot of good stuff but I think that number one is probably Great Santini oh but he's also in this movie that doesn't exist anymore Tough Enough with Dennis Quaid where Dennis Quaid's in a tough man competition and Stan Shaw is like his I think he's the other guy in it, but he's been around. Stan Shad was in five boxing movies somehow.

1:41:40Sean Fennessey:I feel like I know him best. What do I know him best from? Does he have a

1:41:43Bill Simmons:boxing background?

1:41:44Sean Fennessey:He must. Oh, I know him from Monster Squad. Ever seen Monster Squad? Oh, the kids, they all get together, and they're going to go fight the monsters, because the monsters come out of the vortex, right? And Abraham Van Helsing, he comes in at the end of the movie, but then before he comes in, they have this girl, she's supposed to have a virgin, read this incantation that's going to send Dracula back to this thing, And they have one of their friends of the Monsters Squad. They have their sister read the incantation. And it doesn't work. Because it turns out she's not a virgin. And you didn't know this.

1:42:19Because you figure she's like 16, 17 years old. It's facts. It is. It's facts. I definitely haven't seen this. It turns out. And then they have one of their little sisters who's a little girl. She reads it. Van Helsing comes back through the thing. Gets Dracula. pulls him back through the vortex, they win. I think Shane Black wrote that. What year is that?

1:42:40Sean Fennessey:It's directed by Fred Decker. It's like 86. All the monsters come back to this town. Dracula, Wolfman, Frankenstein. The creature from the Black Lagoon. All of them. It's perfect gateway horror. If you're eight years old and you see it, you're like, I'll watch horror movies forever. And it fucked with me because I learned about the lore of the Wolfman because they killed a Wolfman in the movie. Wolfman's got nards. Wolfman's got nards. They killed a Wolfman in the movie and then a Wolfman goes, oh, thank you. because he's been released from his curse. I fell for him. Stan Shaw's in that movie.

1:43:15Sean Fennessey:Cruise or Hanks? So this was going to be my other hottest take, but I didn't want to stop on this category. It should be Cruise and Hanks. Cruise is Santoro. And Hanks is done. And then when Hanks, it's revealed that Hanks is the bad guy. It's the most shocking reveal of the 90s. And this movie would have made$900 million. You leave the tidal wave in. You get an extra$50 million in the budget because you've got the two biggest stars of the era. And it's directed by Brian De Palma, who's just worked with Cruise on Mission Impossible. And we know it will be great in the movie. And Hanks, of course, was already in Bonfire of the Vanities.

1:43:50Sean Fennessey:Make this movie. Couldn't you make the same argument for Cruise and Will Smith? They're not the same age. To me, you could get away with, I think, Cruise and Hanks being the same age. if it's Cruz and Hanks this movie is the espionage version of Interview with the Vampire. It's like two titans coming together to where just the fact that their names are up there together sparks a whole bunch of interest for the movie. Is there a spot for Cruz

1:44:18Bill Simmons:to run in this movie? Not really. It's pretty confined. Maybe through the back hallways.

1:44:24Sean Fennessey:You can always find spots

1:44:25Bill Simmons:for him. Down the hotel room. Maybe he Oh, he has to run down the hotel hallway. Yeah. I think he would have put that in his negotiations. He's like, I read the script. When Rick's on the 35th floor, what if he's on the wrong side and has to sprint the other way? Scorsese or Spielberg? This is obviously Scorsese. This would have been a cool Scorsese movie. And what part would Philip Seymour have played? I think Sinise's part would have been.

1:44:56Sean Fennessey:I wrote Gilbert Powell.

1:44:58Bill Simmons:Which one was that?

1:44:59Sean Fennessey:The Donald Trump figure that John Heard plays. Oh. When he gives the big, he's yelling at Sinise's character about all his plan and what's going to happen and how he needs the millennium to open. That's just a very PSH kind of moment in the movie.

1:45:13Bill Simmons:Pick and nits. What do you got, Van? They're having a full-on party with crack before a heavyweight title fight. They're smoking crack. It's pre-fight. Now, I know that boxers get crazy, but I don't know how many times I've seen them go to the back where the fighters are getting ready. And there's a full-on model party happening in the dressing room of the boxer where they're getting down. I think that might have actually happened during the Tyson post-jail era. Maybe. Maybe. Before the fight. She's covered in blood as she's running through the thing. One guy stops her. Other than that, nobody really gives a shit.

1:45:57It's the whole time she's covered in blood. I'm like, I'm trying to think of any time I've ever seen someone, even with a bloody nose, you're like, hey, man, I don't know if you know, but your nose is bleeding. She's got blood all over her.

1:46:06Sean Fennessey:You wanted a cop to set her aside, full body cavity search. That's who you wanted. Full search. And why don't you get out of those bloody clothes? Those are the types of movies I like. He's running security. Garrison Nees is running security. he however gets his boy tickets to the fight and there's been no security screening of any kind he just chills right there with the secretary of defense i'm like is there no lyric of the lyric or no piece of dialogue where you go hey man i'm glad that you guys put me through this extensive security search where now i get to chill and sit right next to the secretary of defense all of that stuff.

1:46:47None of that happened. It's just I'm the bodyguard for the Secretary of Defense. Hey, my friend, come to the fight. I don't think that it works that way. I don't know why it popped in my head. Another thing is... Wow. You're really bringing it to the table. Just one more time. You're snakeizing it up. These are some slightly high BMI heavyweights. Now, I am not in any way... I thought the same

1:47:08Bill Simmons:thing. I'm not in any way... This looks like an ESPN Friday Night Fights fight. If you guys look at me, I'm not in any way shaming anyone. I'm just saying this is a two heavy weights fighting that in the 90s, this wasn't the heavy weights. It was Lewis and Tyson and Holyfield and all of that. Razor Ruddock. Razor Ruddock. You had maybe a couple of guys, but these are some high BMI heavy weights. That's it. That's all of them.

1:47:36Sean Fennessey:What'd you have, Sean? Well, I mentioned already that Carla Gugino's plan is incoherent. Craig also points out that she's dressed like Marilyn Monroe in an attempt to get the attention of the Secretary of Defense in a fight. But then her whole intention is to be a whistleblower, to have this whole plan destroyed, and then so she would put herself out of work in theory. He doesn't need to get her attention. He invited her, theoretically.

1:48:01Bill Simmons:More importantly, we have fucking email in 1998. Send him an email. She said she wanted to deliver it by hand

1:48:08Sean Fennessey:because I think she didn't want it to get hacked. No, we have email. There's specifically some mention in this movie somewhere of an email that was sent.

1:48:15Bill Simmons:But it was a mention that was said in a way where email was still kind of new and it seemed conceivable. She wouldn't be able to get an email to him? No, but she says something in the movie about either she sent an email or there was an email or something in the movie. I feel like she could have gone up to him before the fight versus during the fight. Right, rather than during the fight. And maybe given it to him. When every camera's on him, she's going to hit him in an envelope. Everything is off that. Couldn't she just have also gone to the press?

1:48:43Sean Fennessey:In theory, yes. Probably worried about her life. Although because he was being applauded, maybe he was a beloved sec def. Right. You know, he could have been a hero.

1:48:52Bill Simmons:I have a really stealth boxing nitpick. The crowd is just too energetic and into it and upset in the first minute of the fight. They're just booing because there's not enough action. No crowd has ever been this. You got two knockdowns in the first round. But initially they're booing because there's not action yet. It's like the fight just started. that never happens. Can we talk about

1:49:11Sean Fennessey:Jose Pacifico Ruiz for a moment? So I didn't know where to put him. I don't know if he should have been in overacting. I don't know if he should have been weak link. I don't know if his characters are...

1:49:24Bill Simmons:It might be a new category. It might be the Jose Pacifico Ruiz worst sports movie character.

1:49:28Sean Fennessey:First of all, you know, I'm sure he was a wonderful boxer. His acting is abominable. Like he is absolutely terrible in this movie. Also when Stan Shaw... He really is awful. He's so bad. He's mugging in the camera.

1:49:40Bill Simmons:His name sucks. Jose Pacifico Ruiz.

1:49:43Sean Fennessey:He, if we're to believe what Tyler Lincoln says, this guy was also on the take, but he's fucking up the plan because he doesn't know how to box? Like, what exactly is going on where he pulls back on the phantom punch? He doesn't go for the kill when he's supposed to. He's kind of jabbing him. You know what he's describing? He's talking too much shit. Yeah, he's talking too much shit. he's losing sight of what the job is to do. Do you think he even knows that there is a job? Isn't it clear that he's supposed to know when he hears the sign too? Yeah. I think they're both in on it, right? Yeah, I think they're both in on it.

1:50:22I could be wrong.

1:50:23Bill Simmons:It's terrible. Great point, Bushan. Here's my biggest nitpick. Why isn't Carla wearing contact lenses? It's 1998. It's like if I lose these glasses, I just become Mr. Magoo. Like, you have a job working for a defense, you know, of your weapons analyst. You can't put in some contacts?

1:50:42Sean Fennessey:There is one really funny Mr. Magoo-style pratfall moment, though, where she comes out of the bathroom after she's cleaned herself up, and she's walking back into the arena, and she bumps into the wall, and she, like, looks at the wall because she can't see. It's like a nice reminder of the fact that she can't see.

1:50:56Bill Simmons:Also, if she was that blind, the glasses would be way thicker. And I say this as somebody who's blind, and I've never had a pair of glasses. Those look like reading glasses. Like, come on.

1:51:06Sean Fennessey:Contact lenses? A plus. Love them. Where would I be without them?

1:51:12Bill Simmons:The actual... Oh, Nobody Notices the Heavyweight Champ punching out a cop. That one jumped out to me. And then, obviously, Carla making a move on Nick at the end. Where does that come from? They have no sexual attention the whole movie. And she's batting her eyelashes and being cute and being like, maybe you should look me up sometime. It's like, what is happening? This guy's a loser scumbag.

1:51:33Sean Fennessey:He does make a move on her earlier in the movie when he sits her down before it gets real and he learns that his friend has betrayed him. So there's some indication that he's down? The only 90s movie that had the sense to take out the underlying sexual energy between the man and the woman was The Pelican Brief. Yes, because America's racist, right? That's part of it. Yeah. And that's where the sense came from.

1:52:02Bill Simmons:Missing a major chunk of that movie. Yeah, like, that's the only movie that was like, you know what?

1:52:06Sean Fennessey:You think they showed full penetration in that scene that they cut out? I think they should have gone. I think they... Darby's shot. I got a world rocked. I think they should have gone with the Pelican Briefs. Ayo. Like, you make that movie, right? I'm sure they haven't come out with that. Did this movie have a porn parody, you know? They definitely could. And so, like, but everything else, they just had to do it. Like, they had to do it. They had to make the people have some type of energy. they always had to do it I guess they didn't do it in didn't they take it out of of you can't handle the truth A Few Good Men yeah they took it out of that one too Joe yeah Joe doesn't get it

1:52:44Bill Simmons:she was with the Galactically Stupid she was with the Galactically Stupid sequel, prequel, prestige, TV, all black cast are untouchable um prestige, TV, maybe I don't know

1:52:56Sean Fennessey:oh wow maybe so defeated no I just I wouldn't fuck with this. I've never seen you be so defeated by your own category.

1:53:02Bill Simmons:I think this movie's fine. I wouldn't do.

1:53:05Sean Fennessey:I think a prequel about Rick and Kevin growing up is kind of fun.

1:53:09Bill Simmons:Okay.

1:53:10Sean Fennessey:And then we see Kevin's dark side, but Rick can't see it because he's kind of a scumbag. Oh.

1:53:16Bill Simmons:Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Mad Dog, Russo, Doris Burke, Buffalo Bill, Sam Jackson, No, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Longlegs, or Wilford Brimley in the firm? I have a new combo for this Joe Davis and John Smoltz announcing the fight and there's another knockdown John, whoop, gunshots the Secretary of Defense is down and John Smoltz goes yeah, we've never seen this before, Joe this is pretty crazy that's all I got

1:53:52Sean Fennessey:is the idea there that they don't have enough energy?

1:53:57Bill Simmons:Yes, that's the idea, Sean.

1:53:59Sean Fennessey:But if Shohei Ohtani was present at that fight, they would have cut to him and said, there he is! The greatest man in the history of attending fights! Ohtani again! Joe Davis, that bastard, if it's a Dodgers moment, he really gets his dander up. Poor Blue Jays fans. I should have put in something about them

1:54:23Bill Simmons:bringing up the Joe Carter home run during the Lincoln Tyler fight. Just fucking, just stop bringing the fucking shit up, man. Joe Carter. It's like history lesson time. Particularly painful now. Yeah, now it's tough. A moment for Blue Jays fans, that was brutal. Brutal. That was brutal. And Lincoln Tyler is down again. He sure is, Joe.

1:54:47Sean Fennessey:I do think, I can't adequately do this because Chris is not here, but I do think Byron Mayo would be incredible in this movie. He was like, Kevin Dunn, my old friend. Meet my friend Serena. Oh, in the backstage?

1:55:02Bill Simmons:Yeah. That would have been good. What was Carla's name in this movie? I forget. Carla, I noticed you lost your time. Let me take you to the gift shop.

1:55:15Sean Fennessey:Carla, I've got air conditioning.

1:55:19Bill Simmons:Probably an answer for questions. I just don't know why all bad guys don't use a silencer. What's the downside? Great note. It is a good note. Incredible note. Is it heavier? What is it, Craig? It's bigger, bulkier, harder to pack. It's longer. Harder to conceal. Yeah. That's true. Just like if I was ever an assassin, silencer every time.

1:55:39Sean Fennessey:But I love a scene when like two assassins are getting ready to go to work and they start screwing the silencer on. I'm like, that's movie magic to me. Because you're getting ready to do a job. Action's going to happen. Yeah.

1:55:50Bill Simmons:shows how deliberate they are FanDuel line for Lincoln Tyler versus Jose Pacifico Ruiz heading into the fight like Tyler minus 650 they said he was 10 to 1 10 to 1 favorite that was answerable that's why he was so fucked up about the bet what piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie I could offer you the bloody$100 bill I could offer you Nick Cage's jacket which you could wear I could offer you an actual poster of the fight to frame that what would you take

1:56:22Sean Fennessey:I have another answer go the ruby red ring which is revealed in the concrete slab at the end of the movie at the end of the credits

1:56:33Bill Simmons:oh good point which is the ring

1:56:35Sean Fennessey:that Serena the redhead wears she's killed and then they're pushed off into the concrete slab that's like there's all this this big sequence where after he kills them we see them getting loaded up into this truck, which is really a weird way to dispense. And the two dead bodies are inside of that concrete.

1:56:52Bill Simmons:So you'd want the ruby red, right?

1:56:53Sean Fennessey:Chip that out.

1:56:55Bill Simmons:Coach Finstock Award, best life lesson. I'm naive. There's worse things to be. I guess that would be it. Don't be naive. Best double feature choice, blowout? Face off? I'll put face off. I'll put face off. Just run it. Run it right back. Nick.

1:57:11Sean Fennessey:What do you have? I have five nominees. Domino? You tell me which one you like. Okay, cool. Dressed to Kill JFK In the Line of Fire No Way Out LA Confidential Which of those do you like? No Way Out It's pretty close Totally right Where you're like This is a sleazy Crime drama Set in the world Of high power politics

1:57:37Bill Simmons:Craig ruined No Way Out though Why? He said Sean Young wasn't hot Stand by a time This is one of the greatest Big controversy fuck ups it's like one of the classic generations let's get a poll let's get a poll going online it's just embarrassing cause the poll would have to be it sends me to like an actual Gen Z can't participate

1:57:56Sean Fennessey:we need like we need like geo blocking but for a generation only boomers get to vote it's like nuts it sends me to a range that's how it should be in America too only millennials and boomers get to vote now here's the poll watch the movie does she do it for you I'm winning that but I okay I mean maybe amongst your generation the ones that shy away Nah, I'll take it across the board. I'll take your generation too. It's like, but dude, that's a tough one, bro. Also, remember, she is Finkel to me. She is Einhorn. Yeah. Oh. It's a whole different relationship with her. It's fair. It's a stellar performance.

1:58:30Sean Fennessey:That's fair. But also, she's not good in it.

1:58:32Bill Simmons:Who won Snake Eyes for you guys?

1:58:37I don't think Cage has ever lost a movie he starred in. Oh, interesting. I don't. a movie where he's the guy. Now, that would have been a great hottest take. He has this overwhelming energy that, like, I don't think he's ever lost a movie he starred in. I had De Palma.

1:58:53Bill Simmons:I mean, you don't know. I thought about Carla. I did test draft Carla, but I think it's De Palma. Carla's bra? Well, because it's De Palma's last one that actually made some money and was memorable. That was my other

1:59:06Sean Fennessey:probably unanswerable question, is did De Palma quit or get fired from the role of major director? Like what actually happened? Because he makes Mission Impossible. Massive sensation. He makes this movie. Makes money. It's a well-known movie. We're doing it on the show right now. And then what happened?

1:59:26Bill Simmons:It's his late 50s and directors usually have a run of somewhere between 7 and 25 years. Unless you're Scorsese. Or Spielberg. I think he turned 50 when he made this movie. It said he was 56 in this. 56. Okay. Or 56, 57. so we talked about Mission to Mars bad movie that bombing you think that killed it that's a bad movie that's a big Disney swing yeah right and it bombs he never should have made that movie and then he comes back and Femme Fatale was like a movie that people enjoyed but it lost money and it was sort of controversial yeah and a little bit off kilter

2:00:01Sean Fennessey:it was like a Euro sensation right right and then after that he kind of just oh it's like Black Dahlia Redacted what was that movie with Rachel McAdams. That one's weird. Passion, yeah. I think it's interesting. Yeah, it's cool. You ever seen that? It's very classic to Palma. Really kinky. It's a Tubi classic. It's almost like he, maybe he threw his chips in because he didn't go back to do... That quote about him saying it's the internet's time now. Movies are over in 1998. It's chilling. He's pretty lit. And I think there were

2:00:33Bill Simmons:some things that happened too. There were things that happened to him in the 70s and 80s that I think there were some things ingested and smoked and done.

2:00:42Sean Fennessey:God bless him. The Noel Baumbach, Jake Paltrow documentary about him is one of the most pleasurable things I've ever seen. I can put that on at any time of day and enjoy myself or just him talking about what a genius he is making his movies.

2:00:55Bill Simmons:Him and Schrader. Well, I guess and Friedkin too. Three guys who were like, is that recorder on? Just a fire blower. They could give a shit. Craig, let's hear it. What'd you think?

2:01:10Sean Fennessey:Loved it. Every time I watch a De Palma movie, I'm like, man, I fucking love this movie. I gotta watch every De Palma film because I think I've only seen the ones that we've covered on the show. I love Body Double. I just like in general when great directors make smaller movies. Even though the budget was bigger or whatever, the story feels small and kind of random or insignificant.

2:01:32Bill Simmons:And I just think it's more enjoyable. The stakes feel lower. That's the end of the rewatchables. Sure. thanks to Craig Horlbeck for producing thanks to Gahaw who passed out an hour ago thanks to Ronak as usual and we'll be back next week

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