‘Tin Cup’ With Bill Simmons, Joe House, and Craig Horlbeck

28:20Bill Simmons:Yeah, it was like the studio gave him the note. You had to find some reason to root against him. I was kind of rooting for him halfway through. I like the Johnny Loras. Why did he go out of his way to go find Roy to be his caddy? That's a solid. He's not treating Roy as a dick. Yeah. I mean, you know, yes, it is. He's saying, be my caddy, but there's a method to the madness. He knows Roy's in tough straights. And also, why would he accommodate his girlfriend going to Roy for lessons. Is it ever apparent that, is that a behind the back thing? It's a big nitpick. Inexplicable love triangles in movie history.

28:58Movie history.

28:59Bill Simmons:I get. Sports movie history. Sports movie history. I understand, I guess, like if she's not telling Don Johnson who she's getting lessons from, that's fine. But once he finds out, him just allowing that to continue after he watched Koster put his hands all over her hips. He's there at the second lesson. That was the second, we're supposed to believe that's the second lesson. they had a 12 minute first lesson you hit one good ball lesson's over pay up please second lesson oh you're i'm late i'm 20 minutes late to the lesson let me see you swing oh now let's talk about your personal life oh i'm easy you know his hands are all over and then don johnson's there he's spooning her costner is spooning her upright and don johnson goes easy buddy yes the rare movie where the the super handsy inappropriate alcoholic guy is the hero can i Can I ask you a question that was just raised by something House said?

29:48Why didn't she just go to Don Johnson to learn to play golf? I had that in nitpicks as well. Anybody in his entire orbit. Entourage, right. He is a PGA professional. He's like a major quality professional golfer. Right. Would you be upset if your wife went to Danny Heifetz for podcasting advice and you found out she was secretly meeting with him? I'd be furious, especially if Heifetz was handsy. Well, part of the challenge for me also is why is she in Salome, Texas? What pushed her? or why is

30:16Bill Simmons:how's he taking three nitpicks and a casting whatever off the board blending it all together why is David Sims dating a woman who lives in this random area of Texas yeah and what's her sports psychology business looking like in West Texas where like it's just a bunch of people work for a driving range we're like to believe that David Sims is a top five golfer in the world right they give us that impression he has the he's the first round leader of the US Open right yeah isn't he like flying from tournament to tournament every week and he's dating this woman who has a tiny job in outside of El Paso Texas yeah Yeah.

30:45Bill Simmons:He's supposed to be from Houston. A lot of it does not up. But why have a girlfriend in Salome? Because he's a good guy. Jacko knows how much I love Don Johnson because you were there as I forced you to watch Miami Vice episodes. Oh, I liked Miami Vice. You didn't force me. But yeah, you had all the Miami Vices recorded and you would play them over and over. That's one of the most controversial moments of the Rewatchables is we did two episodes of Miami Vice. We did a TV movie, yeah. Controversial for who? I thought it was glorious. For movie fans everywhere. It was great. This movie has 35 PGA golfer cameos, including a very young, skinny Phil Mickelson, who we'll get to later, the walrus Craig Stadler, Johnny Miller, Corey Pavin, Fred Couples, Peter Jacobson, all the CBS people are there, and House's guy, George Michael, the sports machine.

31:34Bill Simmons:Do you know what sports machine was? I don't. So it was a half-hour sports highlight show that started in House's neck of the woods, DC. Yeah, NBC Channel 4. And they started syndicating. It was Sunday night, and they would just show highlights. And it was basically like SportsCenter and ESPN or this. And I used to like the sports machine because they would show wrestling every once in a while. They'd be like, let's go to them. Yeah, George was an early adopter of wrestling. And I think his show preceded SportsCenter. He might have even. You're right. He might have been ahead of it. But he would.

32:07Bill Simmons:They'd do like. It's like now bloopers. And you just see like a baseball park hitting the balls. Great TV. A golfer. Yeah, it was great. In the 80s? We were starving for any sports. Yeah. It was great to see him. A couple golf things from this movie. Just a pure feeling is a well-struck golf shot. I agree with that. You can play golf. You can shoot a 110. But those two are just like, it's just perfect. Keeps you coming back. That's why you walk away. Yeah. Sex and golf are the two things you don't have to be good at to enjoy. Yeah. Not bad. Yeah. How about fantasy football? I would throw that in there.

32:47Bill Simmons:Oh, yeah. Because at the beginning of fantasy football, you think you have a shot, just like on the first team. Like anybody can pick a fantasy football team. Yeah. It's funny. Eating? Eating. You don't have to be good at eating? No. How is one good or bad? Like you could be a bad eater. You can eat bad food. Well, I mean that - Jacko, anything else you don't have to be good at to enjoy? I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I'll come back to you if you come up with one. All right. I'll think what about pooping is that I'm not sure that you can rate that I'm sure that's rateable like eating and pooping I'm not sure those rating fine rate those uh all right greatness courts failure Romeo like that one good one for Josh a couple good philosophical golf lines yeah that shot was at a finding moment when a defining moment comes along you define the moment where the moment defines you.

33:38Bill Simmons:I like that one as well. $45 million budget made, $75 million. Roger Ebert. Ooh, what's Roger think? Didn't love it. Three stars. Oh, really? Three stars. I think he liked Rene Russo. He said, Tin Cup is well-written. The dialogue is smart and fresh, and when Tin Cup and Molly are talking to each other, they savor the joy of language. The movie is strong and supporting characters. Wow. He likes story. he thought it was a little bloated like Craig did you know what was the one we did the other day that was 90 minutes you were over the moon excited about it oh we didn't do it we were looking at a movie that was 90 minutes and you were like 90 minutes oh man in and out that's what you need Seagal's catalog Craig really enjoyed from doing like 92 94 what did Siskel think of it we've never mixed in Siskel Siskel has some hot takes.

34:35Bill Simmons:Cisco has zagged in ways that gives them no credibility for the rewatchables. But we're going to take a break and we're going to go through the rewatchable scenes and we have a bunch of fun categories. For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Trimphia offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Trimphia is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremphaya, proper training is required.

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36:15Bill Simmons:Coming back for the categories. Johnny, you remembered one thing. I did. I remembered one thing you don't have to be good at to enjoy, being a podcast guest. great job on you johnny podcast cameos i find you know it's going to be great at executive producer of the rewatchable third episode executive producing this podcast most rewatchable scene molly's first lesson when she's got all those devices he does the poem about the golf swing the uh explanation the unfinished follow-through and then roy's theory in a golf swing gaining control of your life and letting go at the same time you agree with that you play a lot of golf i love it i love that whole uh you know 11 minutes or whatever it is that interaction between the two of them it's a wonderful introduction to who he is where she's coming from she she arrives with nothing but question marks like i'm like what why is she dressed like that she is super hot why does she find this guy but why is she dressed like that why can't everyone dress like that the chemistry chemistry's there and she hits one ball that's the renee russo superpower though always has great chemistry with whoever the leading man is and i like when you can have chemistry with travolta you're really pulling it off it's it's not like an extensive list uh i do like a lot of costner's lines about golf you can tell he's like a guy the character of roy all he does is think about golf he's he's like weirdly philosophical and poetic for such kind of like a hillbilly but but you do buy it and and it does reflect how people think about golf it's the most frustrating and beautiful sport that's the thing that shelton and who is the other writer norville norva yeah and gary those guys are golf hit nuts they're sickos and that's well that's what came through they used uh costner uh mcavoy as the to to be the voice that articulates that golf sicko uh roy caddies for sims very enjoyable scene great laying up versus going a conundrum we established that we get the walrus craig stadler coming in hot making bets we get phil mickelson yeah young making bets how funny was that talk about what's age the best for phil mickelson getting action on something that was not the last time for phil maybe that's where he got a taste for it what's this gambling thing the set of tin cup uh i love when he says 13 years on the tour you're still a pussy yeah great stuff sims fires him then we get the sports machine that section uh roy tries to qualify as another scene where he breaks all his clubs uses the seven iron for the last seven holes shoots 65 that would be a great real life tournament is if golfers had to pick one club and play a round against one another what would your club be people do that um and in fact uh there is a tournament out there called the tin cup that you have to go play the whole thing with the seven iron oh really yeah that's out there would that be the club you picked it i understand the versatility of it i personally would take a hybrid um because i can putt with a hybrid and chip with the hybrid but i understand so you would drive with a hybrid yeah i can i can hit a hybrid off a tee decent enough i love the seven iron yes it's one of the things that keeps coming back on golf courses yeah seven hours great great club um i like when he says what was my best shot was it the seven iron on 12 was it seven iron on 13 he just keeps saying seven hours uh roy versus sims when they make the bet and sims does the trick on him and she says why do men insist on measuring their day which i gotta say that trick where where sims hits the ball down the road and out drives McAvoy that's kind of a main character that's a protagonist thing to do you know I was like that's a pretty cool move Craig loves David Sims they should have gave that to McAvoy him staying over here Roy qualifies with the double bogey blues which wins the Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happiness award best needle drop Jack I was looking on Spotify for the entire soundtrack Tin Cup soundtrack had some bangers the sex song we're doing sex right now it's gonna be all night isn't it like it's gonna be all night giving you some sex right uh plus there's another song where he's like he tells her he loves her and he goes to the driving his driving range and they have like a classic 90s montage thing and there was some music playing in that one that was a good one too yeah a couple bangers on that soundtrack i'm gonna look very mid 90s i don't know how cheryl crow wasn't involved chris isaac's there at one point.

40:52Great point.

40:53Bill Simmons:Yeah, the Roy Getting Laid song is called This Could Take All Night. We're doing some six! This could take all night! He asked for a mulligan. She's like, tee it up this time. I don't know what that means. Yeah, but did Roy like have a premature ejaculation issue? It seemed like it was an ED. She seemed like definitely disappointed. He took 12 shots that night too. She was like, I just dumped this guy who makes six million a year. It's like the six golfer in the pga's right now rick can't even get it up what did i do uh roy hits the pelican enjoyable how said he could get it through the door but not at the pelican yeah the distance keeping it that low the distance is tough carrying it on that line jacko was upset because he was worried the pelican was harmed in real life i was hoping pita was on set that day to make sure no no pelicans were harmed in that filming um roy shoots a 62 i think is my favorite part of the movie because it's incredible nance all of a sudden it turns into like he's you know nance doing the 86 masters or something the most striking thing to me is the first time we see nance because his voice is the exact same i can detect no differences whatsoever between 1996 and 2025 and my mind and my brain i've heard it so many and then this young handsome fella is like hey look at young gymnasts hello friends so good well plus him and Venturi I was going to do the sports stage the best I'll just do it now the mid 90s CBS golf coverage it felt like the first time people had really figured out golf coverage correctly with that whole crew they had that led right into Tiger in 97 but that 96 Masters with faldo nicholas it was kind of the modern version of all this stuff and and the history that leads up to that is cbs so cbs never did a u.s open that was like part of the haha i think with this thing yeah um that they were you know it was cbs on the but oh yeah it would have been nbc yeah cbs had the masters yes and frank draconian is like the legendary guy in the truck and he was so compelling in the research to Shelton and his team that I think they wrote in all of that activity in the booth.

43:14And that does sound set up, I think, a nice sort of narrative. It's just like in your ear, those guys plus Nance and Ben Chorty. It's arguably why the movie works so well, The Last Hour, is because of the CBS coverage. It feels like a real tournament.

43:27Bill Simmons:Also really ahead of its time in 96. Like that sports movies were so conventional and it just felt like we were getting access to this world that I only knew on my square TV. I mean, even Happy Gilmore had Vern Lundquist. And I'm realizing that, man, fictional golf tournaments with real professional sports media people covering it, we could make 10 of those a year, I'd watch them. Well, it's interesting. Vern Lundquist, not in this movie, but is in Happy Gilmore. Do you think he tried to double dip it? Or he was like - He was also in Happy Gilmore 2 next to Post Malone. Did you like that scene?

44:01It wasn't as memorable. Craig was not a fan of Happy Gilmore 2.

44:04Bill Simmons:That one didn't stick. I really like in the 62. Oh, no, it's coming up next. My bad. Roy's final round. A couple really good. They have a nice wide shot putt when he makes that long one on 10. And they go wide. I love when sports movies go wide. They never do it. They always want to do these quick cuts and keep close. And they go wide. You see him sizing up the putt. You see Sims over watching him in the caddy. And then he drains it. You see Cheech Marin in the background in the gallery. it really feels like a like a tournament yeah and i have to imagine one reason why it works to make golf movies is because you can just you can have everybody in the audience sitting in the same place and you can just have costner taking shots over and over and over until he makes it yeah you do 20 of them one of them will work and it it films perfectly still it's not like basketball or football you got to reset everything it's physical it's demanding you can just go over and over until he hits these 20 foot putts it's really good it all sets up 18 I mean, Rene Rousseau says, I've never been with a man who went for it.

45:08Bill Simmons:She's also never been with a man who got whiskey dick the first time they hooked up. Why does the eagle roll off the greenhouse? Let's do the nitpick now. Okay. Let's set it, though. It's like 230, 240 to the green. Right. He pulls out a three-wood. Which is a realistic distance for a three-wood for a professional golfer. Yes. it's over the water it will just in then like to further set the context it's a persimmon head on a steel shaft like that era super authentic like the modern technology didn't exist like the the golf clubs that exist now are are like rocket ships compared to what those guys were playing with in in that golf clubs now the ball would stop when it landed or does it not well this is the thing let let craig set it up i mean what are you saying well so yeah three wood 237 and it's got to carry 230.

46:01That's the problem. You can't roll 230. Like, you have to carry 235. And yeah, a club like that, I mean, that thing's flying off the green. I mean, with a wood like that, that ball stays low and it flies. You would need real loft and spin to have that thing stick like it was and roll backwards. So that the -

46:17Bill Simmons:Yeah, it feels like it would bounce and keep going and roll off the green, right? It makes no sense whatsoever. The behavior of the ball on the green is utterly implausible. It's a pure fiction. It doesn't make any sense. It defies the laws of physics. That club coming in at the trajectory that was coming in, and then what they show on camera, they could have made a different choice. Is the ball coming in from a height and landing softly enough? There's no chance. There's no spin on that. It's not possible. And that's the first two shots that he hits. Both spin backwards. It's ludicrous. The only parallel would be the 16, maybe, on Masters.

46:59Bill Simmons:when they put the pin in a certain place and sometimes the ball can roll backwards. But those are like fly chip shots that bounce down. Yeah, 15 they shave. A wood is going straight and long and hard. Also, can I do a picking nits now about this scene? I have a couple more. We got to do it now, I think, because we're diving into it. Earlier in the movie, he hits a 7-iron, 227. Well, no, it did bounce and roll out. But so you're telling me he hits the 7-iron, 220, hits the 3-wood, 230? Great point. Well, there's the wind. The act of God with the wind. You should pull out the 7-iron for one of them.

47:34This is the ringer difference. You're not going to get this kind of level of sports analysis on other movie podcasts. You're just not. I mean, you should have been able to 5-iron. That's what sets us apart. All you cinephiles out there, I love this sports stuff, I'm sure. 5-iron should be a 220 carry.

47:47Bill Simmons:Yes, 225 carry. My other nitpick. So he asked for the ball gun. He refuses to drop in the drop zone, which is ludicrous. even if he's like I can hit this try to win the US Open then come back after and try to hit it you have to do it now in the biggest moment of your life where there's like I don't know what was the prize money back then it had to have been a million dollars when you win the US Open you're on the tour like forever right? It's life defining it's life altering it changes everything about the entire rest of your life for 10 cup 200 bucks would have changed his life and I guarantee the purse was more than 200 bucks and he was losing like a million dollars every time he hit it into the water right so he he he for some and then the same thing happens and then he falls apart he starts in the water and the crowd the third time he hits in the water they cut to the crowd the crowd's like oh and we were saying we feel like this would be like watching scatman crothers get murdered in the shining level reaction by the crowd i don't think anyone's making a noise this would be like being in the stadium when paul george snapped his leg in half they would be the most awkward this is like a sports injury crowd I think by the third shot the crowd is staring in horror nobody is saying anything you can hear a pin drop and it's probably the most awkward sporting event you can go to is my guess let me ask this because well I'll just ask it I don't know do you think that fan behavior in 1996 is qualitatively different than fan behavior in 2025 well I think well at a golf i guess in normal things they'd be holding their stupid phones right but in golf you can't have your phone no i think it'd be around the same in most golf because the norman thing we had this in 96 with norman and the crowd is dead if you go back and watch that last four rounds the crowd is like just complete deer in the headlights which is really rare when you can get an entire group of people to just have deer in the headlights the reason i asked that and And as you're talking, I think that a golf crowd in 1996 would have maintained that decorum, the reverence, that whole thing of being you're in a special place.

49:59It's a special tournament. People are not going to be yelling mashed potatoes or whatever. In 2025, the crowd would have, I think, turned like people would have been angry. People like the like and been vocal, like, you know, using bad words. Yeah. At anybody. What the fuck are you doing? Yeah, streaming it. Phones are out. People are going live on Instagram. People are laughing at him. He can't recover. At least in the 90s, it becomes lore. It's like stoic that he does this, and he almost becomes like a, you know, some figure that you can look back on and be like, wow, that's the guy who stuck to his guns.

50:332025, he's getting destroyed. It would have been a national, like, Twitter moment. Yeah. A unifying moment on Twitter where everybody's like, what is this moron doing? Like, it's just that, and he's a laughingstock for the rest of his career.

50:44Bill Simmons:What's the worst thing you ever saw in person at a sporting event? Ooh. oh boy you're putting me on the spot here um i like putting jacko on the spot from completely unprepared for no reason i'm trying to think what i've seen been a lot of good games i can't remember seeing something that um just completely flummoxed everybody i haven't been to any of those uh you know what it would be oh so this is a good one i went to the jr smith timeout game oh sure now the warriors fans were excited for that but i guess that was the closest of people were just like, what just happened? So I think it would just be like that for five minutes.

51:23Bill Simmons:A couple other things about this scene. Russo is great in this scene. Because you're thinking about the shots and the things, but she's just really funny in the way she's like, every shot is just running through her whole body, and then she starts laughing like a crazy person. She's just great. And the announcer reactions are unbelievable. The guys in the booth, Nance and Venturi, their reactions. I actually thought that was realistic I agree I think they gave a full I think that might have even been ad-libbed I don't think there was like a script for that just completely flabbergasted it's great usually those are bad scenes in sports movies not this time I love the guys jumping in the lake I like when she says no one's gonna remember the open five years from now they're gonna remember the 12 it was immortal I'm like she's right I love you and then he says nice par david as he's carrying her away which you thought could have meant one of two things i never even considered that it was about him parring the hole because as house pointed out earlier today i we didn't even see sims finish the hole yeah we have no idea what he did so i guess he parred but i thought he was making a joke like he got a birdie by by getting renee russo and david sims i like the double entendre yeah like you settled once again for the woman so is this a better movie if he eagles 18 and gets a minus 10 and the movie goes that way and that's what we've had for the last 29 years no this is a good ending i think i agree i prefer this what do you think jacko no i think it's just a cliched typical cliche sports movie then and this one i think i like that they went in a different direction yeah because on the first watch it's agonizing yeah you have no idea this is coming i mean everything every movie you've ever watched that's why i wanted you to watch it again because i was like oh when he sees it the second second time around you're like this is kind of awesome this guy rocks so what's your most rewatchable scene i i stand by the beginning because i just think that it sets everything up about who he is and there's enough mystery with her and i i'm a i'm a in that sucker for the golf sicko stuff yeah he does the whole poetry thing and then it's like well the other alternative is grip it and rip it and he drops out let the big dog eat i'm on that stall right in my that's in my wheelhouse.

53:37Joe House, wheelhouse. So that's my favorite. What do you got? I'll go. I mean, the whole last hour, the second we get to the open, the music starts playing, you get the drone shots, but a smaller scene. Not drone. 1996. You're right. Helicopter shots. One part we didn't mention that I love, the smaller scene within that is when he first gets to the U.S. Open and he has the shanks and he's warming up with everybody. That is the worst shank I think I've, I mean, he is hosling those balls literally backwards. This is coming up at

54:06Bill Simmons:a different category. House has some thoughts on that. I like when he shoots the 62 and I just basically like the last 40 minutes of the movie until the last five minutes which shouldn't exist, but we'll talk about that later. What's the most 1996 thing about this movie? We already talked about young Jim Nance. Man. David Sims is sponsored by Nissan and Infinity, and I'm not even sure like, are those golf sponsors? Maybe in the mid-90s they were? I mean, car sponsors for sure. like you know that's a very common now it would be like Rivian well it's Genesis there's literally a tournament here in Los Angeles California you mentioned Roy's Walkman we just watched one yeah Roy's Walkman is very 96 the Fujifilm blimp they make Fujifilm anymore no chance I think that I like this girl 90s music driving range montage where it's like I think I'm in love with her It just was gone by the 2000s.

55:07Bill Simmons:He's reading Ring Magazine at one point. I don't know if anyone's read that in the 21st century. They probably read it online. Rene Russo's hair. It's like that Jennifer Aniston friends year one kind of whatever. Somebody says the line, look, it's Lee Jansen and Billy Mayfair. Excitedly. But my winner is Craig Stadler's clothes. And Craig Stadler. Clothes in general across the board. Also, I think everybody looks great in this movie. I hope that style comes back in golf. It's not that far away. We got some pleated pants. Yeah. The skinny guys in the pleated pants, like Costner looks great. Looks great.

55:44Doesn't he? Big, wide, like the straight leg pleated pants. Who's the best dressed golfer right now to you, House? Oh, wow. Oh, boy. I thought Ludwig Oberg looked great at the Masters. Yeah, I like some of the Jay Lindbergh that my man Victor Hovland wears, even though sometimes they put them, it's a little clowny. But I'm a sucker for Ralph Lauren, so I've always been a Billy Ho-Ho guy. Billy Horschel in the Ralph Lauren. He's my guy. What about Fleetwood? He's fine. It's Nike. It's like, you know, I think the Nike stuff's fine.

56:15Bill Simmons:He's trying to throw him a bone. He's lost 17 tournaments this year. You want him to win some. Give him one win. Fair enough. Any other 96 things about this movie? I think they should have shoehorned in a couple more 96 music. Like, where was Hootie and the Blowfish? How are they not in this? sitting right there that may have been too big for the tin cup soundtrack you think they cheaped out i think they couldn't pay for verne lundquist or hootie and the blowfish 45 million dollar budget they only had 44 million dollars to play with what's age the best i have a bunch of stuff but do you have a big one house it's just jim nance i mean like i say like the first time i I hear his voice.

56:56Bill Simmons:God, get a fucking room with Jim Nance. Jesus. Awkward. Get a Winnebago with that guy. No, I have Jim Nance as well. What do you have, Craig? Yeah, Mickelson gambling. I mean, come on. The concept of getting the shanks. Also, sports therapy. Sports mental kind of, you know. That was my biggest one. Way ahead of its time. This is like 10 years ahead of its time. I think this was one of the gimmicks in this movie. It was like, this is this kooky sports psychology lady, and it works for Roy. so then Stadler comes over and he's like, hey, can we try that? He's pretty good in that scene. Yeah, he is.

57:29He's a really good. Stadler. Stadler was quality. I have a... Also, would you want her to be your therapist after watching McAvoy break down on 18? That's a great point. Hey, I saw what you did to McAvoy. You broke his brain. I'd love to get that.

57:44Bill Simmons:Also, he's a premature ejaculator. He was tied for the lead of the U.S. Open on the 18th hole. Yeah. I want the analysis of the woman that said, hit another one. Hit another one. at 18. Just go for it, Roy! I'd like to see a year of McAvoy first before I pay his girlfriend. In her defense, immediately after he hits the first one in the water, she says, now go do the correct thing. Hit the layup. Yeah. She does say it. So she keeps her creds. Too late. Her psychology creds to me. Sports psychology, way ahead of its time. I had a couple more. Calling the driver the big dog and then screaming, let the big dog eat.

58:19Bill Simmons:Okay, I wanted to ask about that. That's been 30 years of people saying that. Did this movie invent that? Yes. Really? yes what about grip it and rip it was that this movie very possible i feel like it was gripping and rip it to john i was wondering about that did john daly come up with that or did this movie come up with it because wasn't that john daly's philosophy and he's probably like three years before this right he preceded the movie i think his thing was group i think that was in sports illustrated like that's one of the fun experiments experiences for me going back and watching older movies is i hear these lines that sound cliche to me now and i'm like i'll let the big dog eat.

58:52And then me and my brothers-in-law were like, wait a minute, did they come up with that phrase? I think they did. Pretty impressive.

58:59Bill Simmons:When I was at ESPN, the guy who ran sales was this guy at Earhart, which was old school, played golf with all the sponsors kind of guy. And he used to, his whole thing was grip it and rip it. And every time I loved him, every time I saw him, I was like, grip it and rip it! What do we got going? But he was just like one of those guys. That belongs to a different era like nobody would say that now in a business setting would they let's bring it back all right also the the doctor riddle at the beginning of the movie is another riddle that i've heard my whole life that was that popularized by this movie or has that been or was that around that i don't know hey that's i think that was probably predated i think that just an old famous yeah a couple more uh we mentioned all the cbs production booth stuff the sleek leather golf bags house and i were admiring those have just gone golf bags have just become gigantic and unwieldy and i don't understand what we're doing well i think those bags um were gigantic in their own right and heavy as f because that's why we don't have them anymore yeah yeah because whatever the materials they were using a couple small ones any movie with a pawn shop involved just like a pawn shop's always a win yeah i mean i'm always excited to be in one in a movie salome Texas pawn shops and strip clubs I mean you know we got any movie the strip joint involved also in par 5's on 18 where you have to carry the water just in general good great what is that what's the best course that has a par 5 with water I mean Torrey Pines is probably the most famous you know the north course there yeah no south course whatever I messed it up it doesn't matter Cheech Marin is the sidekick young Jimmy Roberts grilling Roy after round three I'm surprised there weren't more fake more real people in that scene more uh journalists yeah tom and ali they're probably like get out tom fuck you um lazy deep west texas as a movie setting i was like like love it midnight run has like a whole stretch of the move in there varsity blues is there always works what was the armadillo budget for this movie do you think there's the same armadillo or a family of armadillos there's multiple armadillos in one scene so they must have had there must have been an armadillo Wrangler.

1:01:12Bill Simmons:The Tin Cup jokes that came out of this movie is A Wood Stage is the Best. Anytime somebody melts down. Vandervelde was the most famous one. But anytime it happens in a tournament where somebody hits in the water late, it's like, oh, here we go, Tin Cup. Nash Bridges, Don Johnson and Cheech Marin ended up on Nash Bridges on CBS for like a million years together. And then for A Wood Stage is the Best, this is actually segues into the Steven Seagal Shitting on Himself Award for most unbelievable story from the shoot that actually existed. You know about Steven Seagal shitting on himself? I do not.

1:01:45Bill Simmons:Got choked out by a stunt coordinator and think out for justice and allegedly shit on himself. Denies that he shit on himself. Kyle Brand and I litigated for 20 minutes. Wow. So here's the story. They wanted to get all the pros to be extras. So they went to the PGA Pro Wives and offered them a banquet where they could meet Kevin Costner and Don Johnson who were like in their primes. And all the wives and girlfriends were like, we want to meet. And so all the pros ended up being in the movie for SAG minimum$600. Wow. That's a real story. So we'll take one more break and then we got the Big Kahuna Burger Award for best use of food and drink, which is a very important Joe House category that's next.

1:02:25Bill Simmons:This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. All right, House, the Big Kahuna Burger Award for best use of food or drink. I mean, it's the most obvious one.

1:03:01They go to the Waffle House in between rounds. And, you know, the folks, everybody, both Rene Russo and the other lady suggest, why don't we go somewhere else? We got some money. Let's go somewhere a little fancier. And Roy is adamant. Nope, we're staying right here. I'm a Waffle House guy. This is where I belong.

1:03:22Bill Simmons:It's a secretly important tin cup scene. It is. No, we're not going to the steakhouse. We're going to the fucking Waffle House. I made the mistake asking House what his order would have been with the crew. And as Jacko can attest, it was a 45-second answer. I love the pork chop, eggs. He had it right ready to go. There was no thought needed. What are you talking about? There was a waffle for dessert. Waffle for dessert? Yeah. Can I throw an honorable mention in for chasing bourbon with liquid antacid? Yeah. Yeah, what was that? How was that? Maylocks and whiskey. That's a good one. I didn't even know that there was.

1:03:54an acid drink and he was just going back and forth yeah it sounds like something that's true to the era though the maalox in a in a bottle i still drink pepto out of a bottle bottle what i'll drink pepto-bismol out of a bottle i have a giant pink bottle in a closet and under certain circumstances depends on you know like an indian food dinner night right like like like as a precautionary measure right now you need food in a pepto-bismol chaser to get ahead of it i'm waiting you wake up i'm like oh you know i gotta calm things down glug glug from the straight from the bottle right back to bed it's awesome right back to bed you wake up glug back to sleep yeah because i've been awoken because of like you know the acid reflux whatever you know i like

1:04:42Bill Simmons:eating past the point when you should stop eating and then comedy house doesn't lay up at the dinner It's an important one. How does that lay out? Welcome to the Rewatchables brought to you by Pepto Bismol. Right. We're giving them a free sponsor here. The Great Shot Gorder Award, Most Cinematic Shot. That wide shot on Roy's putt on 10, I really like. Den of Thieves Benny Hanna Award, Seen So in Location. Jacko voted for the Golden Tassel, the strip joint. Good wide shot. But it's got to be the 18th, the water. Which you said was like a course in Houston? Yes. That they kind of rejiggered? Right.

1:05:22I don't even think they rejiggered it. I mean, you know, the hole exists, and you can play that golf hole. I think it's a par four.

1:05:29Bill Simmons:Chess Rockwell, Brock Leonard's worth for best character name. Roy McAvoy is really good. Yep. That's like you have that name, and you're just like, all right, it's a golf movie. The guy's name's Roy McAvoy. Funny story from Nance. My guy. My guy Nance. Your guy. he had in his head as Rory McIlroy rose ascended to be careful because he had Roy McIlroy in his life before he had Rory McIlroy in his life and he confesses that he had to be careful early on as Rory ascended I love Nance House gets a flex category so I'm giving it I'm giving you created a category during this movie and it's called the, uh, their fucking category for, we're watching this.

1:06:16Bill Simmons:There's this moment with, uh, with, with Molly and, uh, and Roy when she comes back for the second lesson and there's some body language stuff and house is like, is it a rewatchables category? The moment in the movie when you know the two characters are going to fuck. And I'm like, now it is. So it's the, oh, they're fucking, I don't know. We may, we got to workshop the title a little bit, but, um, Yeah, when he takes her to the river and he's licking her hand. Oh, I'm sorry. So it was when she stops by the trailer. That's when it was. My bad. I got it wrong. To me, it was. When he stops, when she stops by her trailer, his trailer, the house is like, is there a category to commensurate this?

1:06:55She came to the trailer ostensibly to apologize for not giving him the correct sort of therapeutic direction. After he spilled his heart there. He spills his heart and she has a weird reaction. and she calls up some other friend psychologist who obviously gives her terrible advice or she ignores the advice and goes to his trailer to apologize and is like, that's it. It is game on.

1:07:17Bill Simmons:I was thinking that would have been a good one to have for previous movies we've done, like Basic Instinct. Oh, yeah. Where they're in the car and she's like, do you smoke, Shooter? He's like, not anymore. It's like, yes, you do. And it's like, ah, they're fucking. I'm going to workshop the title, though. the uh butch's girlfriend's award butch's girlfriend award for weak link of the film what did you have craig i this movie has no lesson there's like nothing to take away from this movie but maybe that's the point but like there's nothing to really learn he doesn't learn he says that at the end but i don't know sports movies like half the part of a sports movie is you come away with it with a lesson right the lesson is don't lay up right is it isn't it he ruined his life or or he's now immortal he he did qualify for next year's the open and his house pointed out when we're watching it today he probably made 10 million dollars in endorsements like he made like hooters is like that in 1996 hooters is like how much yeah pepto-bismol

1:08:21Bill Simmons:he's the people's champion yeah he takes john daly's territory immediately um that's that would be my only counter but i think you're probably right the only other thing i had was uh just for time the entire stripper storyline he owed her money giving her the deed of it yeah it's an easy cut 15 minutes yeah easy cut uh can i get can i get a vote uh jacko you i have a spot for you in the rundown do you get to do your thing now well this is for your week link of the film i think the ex-wife i'm sure she's a lovely woman that actress but she was too old to be kevin costner's ex-wife we googled her and she was 56 at the time of this movie and costner's like 40 56 yeah the stripper yeah ex-wife or ex-girlfriend ex-girlfriend oh ex-girlfriend okay ex-girlfriend but she i don't think it was plausible that she was going to be a love interest of kevin costner and there yeah that that whole thing maybe it was like a jason momo lisa bonet type thing and i made the joke when we watched it where i said i think she started stripping at jack Ruby's Carousel Club in Dallas.

1:09:20Oh, no. Oh, no. And then moved west to West Texas. I apologize to that actress, who I'm sure is a lovely woman in real life and still with us, according to Google. Thank God.

1:09:34Bill Simmons:That wasn't your week link in the film. You had a take on the Roy McAvoy. Oh, that's another week. I hate to, this is a fine movie. I hate to shit on it. But in the beginning, Roy McAvoy is philosophical and he's quoting Carl Sandburg and he has all these things about nod to the gods and the earth and all these things. And then later when he qualifies for the US Open or qualifies for the sectional and she's spouting things saying, well, you're somewhere between denial and delusion. And he's like, why are you using them big words? So it's like, is he like this really secret philosopher genius or is he a yokel?

1:10:06And they can't really ever decide.

1:10:08Bill Simmons:It just goes back and forth between those two worlds. I think it's a very fair point. House, your weak link of the film was that you don't feel like a golf pro would ever get the shanks well no no i i could see a golf pro getting like shanks where you're hitting in their driving range sideways and that and the drive the the scene where they're where he's lost at his own range where he and and romeo are trying to sort of sort it out him showing up at the mother effing u.s open and getting up there and not having a solve an immediate solution to, you know, one shank is fine. He has the nerves. He's like, you know, the long shot that came out of nowhere.

1:10:47The whole thing is extraordinarily intimidating. They're in awe of all of it. Romeo's like, whose autograph can I get? Okay, one shank, fine. But the fact that it persists and he continues to proclaim that he can't fix it. Mother effer, you're supposed to be a ball striking golf pro. like you never had anybody who had the shanks and you told them what to do to fix it like they just went too hard on it the level of shanking was too much like what you say like going right straight down the line and like hitting golfer's feet like no pro is ever going to be that bad it's actually quite hard to do that I'm not even sure you could do that if you tried

1:11:26Bill Simmons:my weak link is is really simple the movie should end when he says nice part David and I can't believe it goes on for like five more minutes I don't know what they were thinking I don't know where the studio was. He had to suck her fingers one more time. And it was like, we got to close off this Cheech Marin strip joint head plot. And it's like, no, we actually don't. We don't. Nice Par David is a great ending. Let's get the fuck out. It's actually the best line of the movie. Great line. It's great. Wide shot, camera back, we're gone. I'm not defending it. What I think is plausible is there was a possibility of a Tin Cup 2.

1:12:02And the Tin Cup 2 could have revolved around, because she makes a point of telling him the next thing for you is Q school. And that could have been a storyline for Tin Cup 2. Counter. Set up. Counter. Go ahead.

1:12:16Bill Simmons:End the movie on Nice Part David. You could have had Nancy. I'm not arguing. You could have had Nancy and with that 12, he qualifies for the US Open next year and then the sequel's set up. Will there be a next year? But whatever. Maybe Cheech Marin was really into tangoing and he's like, I want it in my contract that I get to tango. One scene. the only way I'll do Teen Cuff. I honestly think they made a bet, Ron Shelton and Cheech Marin at some point. It's like, alright, if I win, I get my tango scene. It's like, alright, fine. I'll put it in the movie. If you can drive the water here, you get to do it.

1:12:46Bill Simmons:Speaking of Cheech Marin, we don't get to give this enough. The Vincent Chase Award for, are we sure this character was actually good at his job? That was my flex. Oh, that was your flex? I'm sorry, Craig. Terrible caddy. Horrible caddy. Breaks his three wood in half, causes him to collapse, gets him blacked out drunk and gives him three hours of sleep before day one of the u.s open doesn't talk him out of not laying up with like five million dollars on the line can't convince him of anything if he just doesn't get blacked out drunk the night before the u.s open he wins by a landslide yeah he wins by like seven strokes he just shoots a 75 that day he's fine so he knocks it in the water and 18 in the fourth round and he's like give me give me another ball i'm like i'm taking my bag and i'm walking where the drop thing is and we're gonna i'm putting the ball right there and you're gonna fucking hit the ball from right there yeah he's a terrible cat not to mention he abandons him and he does really well without him anyway um the guy the guy's needy he's like i was like to have the whole conversation like was he better than me it's like who wants a needy caddy nobody there's just one too many things going on i feel like they're trying to force the roy mcavoy romeo like bromance that there's like a whole scene where they're making up i don't know if that needs to be there but i cut it and you have renee russo then it's his relationship with golf it's like one too many what's age the worst uh we've already covered a couple including roy getting a little handsy um house you had some thoughts on roy's golf outfits they went at the driving range well there are there was there's a whole section of the movie yes uh really all of the time leading up to them making it to the u.s open many times he shows up wearing clothes that look like he just finished his maitre d shift at a crab a crab restaurant in miami like there's a lot of pastel he's got but he's got leather loafers on i mean i get that we're supposed to uh buy that he's a he's he's casual his vibe is west texas casual but the clothes aren't any have anything to do with west texas it's all these pastels and stuff he's the hawaiian shirts uh and and and leather he looked like he was in a miami vice episode which i thought was a crucial point.

1:15:00Bill Simmons:He's in fucking nowhere Texas. Right. Why is he wearing linen? Also, doesn't wear a hat at the U.S. Open. No visor, no hat, nothing. So in the 90s, that was a little more common. Is that right? I feel like that's true. Skin cancer wasn't really on the radar. I can tell you it wasn't on the radar for any of us. I have some photos of a sunburn jackass. We made the joke about it was Don Johnson's wardrobe from Miami Vice, but now that I find you reported that he and Costner really are friends, like maybe it was. Like literally. Maybe Costner was like, these armadillos are costing us a fortune. Can you bring some stuff from Miami Vice for me to wear?

1:15:31Some pants and some loafers?

1:15:35Bill Simmons:I don't understand that half hour of wardrobe. And then by the time we get to the open, it's okay. Yeah, looks good. Clothes are on point. This is too big to be a nitpick. So Molly never realizes Sims is an asshole until she overhears him being mean to a fan. She doesn't see that at all. Never in any other tournament except that one. I mean, that would be normal for him. Doesn't sound like they're hanging out too much. Sims might have had many girlfriends. Was she a beard? Throwing that out too. That's why he went back to Roy to get him to caddy for him. Did you like her to begin with? The Sims-Molly thing, I was just never buying that combo.

1:16:20Bill Simmons:What's age the worst? He qualifies for the U.S. Open in like a day and a half? he plays like two rounds of golf is that easy is it that easy to make the u.s open craig could you make the u.s open probably give me a couple weeks could you just like you're playing like in orange county you win a tournament and then well what you win one more and you're in the u.s open yes there's a local and and then there's a sectional the local is an 18 hole thing and they take you know you have to be a two whatever the the line of demarcation is demonstrating your capacity to be good at golf. Right. Because you can't be a bum and show up and waste everybody's time.

1:16:58But you have to be in the top two or three or whatever at the local to make it to the sectional. And then the sectional is like four spots for 78 golfers. And it is the so-called longest day of golf. It's mid-June. And there are these sectionals all over the country. I think there's one in Canada too.

1:17:15Bill Simmons:So is there a certain threshold or they're only taking like 20 golfers? They're only taking like 20, 25 total golf, whatever the number is. So Roy makes this, even though his caddy broke all of his clubs. Can we pay for me for the next year to try to qualify? Can that be our next project? I mean, we are sending the fantasy show to Ireland. Now you want to qualify for the US Open? Yeah, they're going to Ireland for the fantasy football show. Steelers-Vikings week four. Oh my God. It's going to be like six people going and probably four coming back. We might just lose multiple people. Can we play golf?

1:17:48Can I executive produce that one too? I was like, what?

1:17:54Bill Simmons:Any other what's aged the worst? I don't think there's a lot that actually has aged badly about this movie. It kind of holds up. The Ruffalo Hannah Rubinick Partridge overacting award. It's not overacting, but it's something. Whatever Gary McCord's doing in his scenes. He's in a different movie. He could actually get the Teddy KGB of my own movie. I don't know what's going on with him in multiple scenes, but he's like hamming it up as an announcer, but you're in a movie that's scripted with real actors? I think it's pure McCord. And I think that they let him sort of just be him. I knew House would defend yet another member of the golf locker.

1:18:31I think House is right, though. You're not wrong about him being too much.

1:18:35Bill Simmons:You're signing up for that experience if you cast Gary McCord. That's him. If you watched golf in the 90s, that was him doing golf. I think they were like, Gary, just be yourself. I'm not even sure his lines were scripted. There's some Russo moments where she's dialing it up. quite a bit yelling at on 18. Craig's really down on Rene Russo. It's hurting the 50 year old guys here. What do we do two for the money without Pacino? Craig's going to be even more down. I was thinking with Gary McCord, who I'd like to in the mid nineties, but there are these people when they, they get the reputation for being hilarious, but they're really hilarious by comparison to everyone else.

1:19:09Bill Simmons:They're interacting with all day. This would happen. The NBA, like Blake Griffin had this and I actually think Blake Griffin's pretty funny. Yeah. But Blake Griffin as an NBA player in the early 2010s was like fucking Chris Rock selling out an 18 ,000-seat arena funny compared to everyone else who he's going against. But Gary McCord, it's like when nobody's funny in any way, he seems funnier than he probably is. Yeah. Is that fair? Gary McCord walked so David Faraday could run. Right. David Faraday's another example. Sure. Is he legitimately funny or is he just funny because he's in the golf world?

1:19:42Golf tournament funny. Yeah.

1:19:45Bill Simmons:the cr thinks luke wilson could have been harrison ford hottest take award you don't even have to necessarily totally believe this take we used to have a podcast called the hottest take that we're bringing back we had to take a four-year gave some we had to give a four-year sabbatical because craig almost got the podcast canceled when he tried to bring back cannibalism altruistic cannibalism the podcast was done like a month later um no it's actually done because we're bringing it back as a video pod and i'm excited about it but uh what's your hottest take for this movie he's just roy mcavoy's an all-time choke artist like he has no clutch in him at all even like when he's hooking up yeah that's a great point he he has when the lights are brightest he flops at the charity event he can stripe his three wood when it matters he can't he can't do it he can hit the seven iron at the bar.

1:20:40He can hit the pelican in the club. When the lights are bright, he can't... When the defining moment comes along, you define the moment or the moment defines you. Yeah, the moment defined the shit out of him. The moment bent him over and defined him right in the rear every single time. That's absolutely a thousand percent right. See money. He's crushing it.

1:21:00Bill Simmons:Hold up to Karl Malone to really... Speaking of people who let the moment define them. She's an all-time choker. Really good. I have a really hot take I think you could switch the two male leads And the movie still works I think Don Johnson can be Roy McAvoy Basically playing it I mean honestly Costner is not as good As being the kind of drunk Southern guy as Don Johnson Was as Sonny Crockett On Miami Vice He is a 10 out of 10 with that character Cigarette, calling everybody Darling, stubble Hungover, he would have been an unbelievable roy mcavoy i will say there was a few moments uh during the first re-watching of this where it's i felt like koshner was trying to figure out his accent what accent does he want that's every kevin koster movie i know but come on but robin hood he's just seen the scene he's english he's not english that that's jfk no in this one i felt like he was too southern then it then he figured it out and and don johnson's one of the only actors who can believably steal a woman away from kevin costner if it was switched great point great um i think costner's david sims would have been really good i think don johnson he it's probably like five years too late for him if it was like late 80s even don johnson i think and he's just basically sunny crockett as roy mcoboy that's the best movie of my life i would have been the opening night um all right casting what ifs So apparently they offered the role of Molly to Janine Turner and she turned it down.

1:22:36Bill Simmons:She had a run in the 90s. She was in Cliffhanger. She was in Short Hair. Yeah. She was in that Alaska movie. Yeah. Everyone used to say she was like drop dead gorgeous in person. Like kind of like Margaret Qualley now where you're just like in person another level. Anyway, she turned it down. Michelle Pfeiffer approached. Then they went the Rene Russo route. I don't know. I think Pfeiffer would have crushed. She'd have been too much, I think. oh that's too much too too like unattainable yeah too attractive yeah i just i'm not buying her as a sports psychologist in fucking east bumfuck texas yeah because she's had a series of failures chasing men and also professional failures there's no you're not buying michelle pfeiffer in any role like that with yeah even in dangerous minds a classic when she's like re re getting her life back together and teaching and interesting even that's like you'd be married by now.

1:23:31Bill Simmons:Come on. Yeah. The only believable thing is her with a cocaine problem. That's where you get believable. Scarface. Right. Fly, Pelican, fly! Dennis Quaid turned down David Sims. Would have been okay. Alec Baldwin accepted it and had to back out three weeks before filming because some family stuff. Baldwin would have been good. I think he would have been less likable earlier on in the movie. Yeah. You would have hated him sooner. It's a very easy ball. It's a very easy villain. especially in that era of him. Yeah, that would have been a good one. That's like malice, the bear level. Did you read that Kevin Costner turned down the role of Shooter McGavin in Happy Gilmore?

1:24:11Bill Simmons:I didn't believe that. I chose not to include that in there. It didn't add up to me. I don't think he's too big of a star. He's not going to be Shooter McGavin. Sandler wasn't even that famous when he did Happy Gilmore. He's going to be Shooter McGavin. I didn't believe that. He's like, I can only do one golf movie a year, and it's going to be Tin Cup. Right, that's it. Leguizamo was apparently offered Romeo and said no. I'm not 100 % sure I believe that, but that was in the research. Was he that big in 96? I agree. He had to have been pretty young in 96. Yeah, that's the thing. So he was in The Fan with De Niro that same year.

1:24:48Bill Simmons:That's kind of the level he was at. He was like the eighth lead in The Fan. So I don't know if I believe that one. Best that guy word. It's amazing. Cheech Baron's crew includes Moxa's dad from Varsity Blues the biker guy from The Doors the black guy who I've seen in I don't even know I've seen him in 40 things I don't even know where I've seen him from so he might be the winner and then one of the bad guys from Cliffhanger who's my winner the guy who's in John Lithgow's thing and he's flying the plane the bald guy with the mustache He's actually got kind of a big cliffhanger role, but I think he's the winner.

1:25:30Bill Simmons:Dan Waiters is a little more complicated, though. We have Jim Nance. We have Frank Cherkanian. Which one's he? The producer. The Armenian director. He was good. So funny. Or Craig Stadler. Ooh, wow. Or young, skinny, about to get a gambling problem, Phil Mickelson, if you want to just go cameo.

1:25:56i think i think it's the frank churkanian guy yeah yeah that would be my phone or nance oh i mean nance is so brokenhearted that he couldn't say nance we're gonna we're gonna re-cut this you go now i do think it was churkanian though yeah and and he's not uh camera on camera person he's not talent he's in the truck he was great it was super compelling for the story. It gave the story a great heft.

1:26:25Bill Simmons:I think he's the winner. Recasting couch director, City. Can I offer you Susan Sarandon as the strip joint owner? There you go. Nice Bull Durham connection there, too. A little bringing back to Bull Durham. She's probably the right age. Yeah, that's a better casting choice. It would have been good. Yeah. That would have been a good one. Craig, how fast I earn it research. Tin Cup, there's some expression, she's not worth a fart in a tin cup. That's where they got that from. I was confused. I assumed a golf hole is not referred to as a tin cup is that no they they said he got the name from playing baseball i thought that was kind of random and weird yeah why would it not have been a golf yeah it totally should have been a golf reference to have his nickname he's a golfer it's not known for playing baseball tin cup sounds like a hole yeah it should have been something to do with that that was such a random throwaway moment when the stripper's like oh he played catcher and he's getting hit in the nuts a lot yeah what that was the tin cup right they spent so much time and i thought um effectively so building up what his flaw was building up this this thing that he was a you know compulsory go for it guy make it a tin make tin cup make a story around that right 100 yeah like he had some bet right he bet somebody a thousand dollars that he couldn't hit a three with into a tin cup right yeah or he used to putt into a tin cup when he was a kid or something golf related yeah yeah it was just random oh he played baseball for the first time he had a premature ejaculation problem.

1:27:50Bill Simmons:It was in a tin cup. Then they called him tin cup. Costner trained extensively with Gary McCord and wrote the foreword for Golf for Dummies. There's a story about McCord. They really wanted him to be a consultant and have a cameo. And he's like, I'm only doing it for$250 ,000. And they were like, sure. Really? And he got$250 ,000, which he brags about now, which is funny when you think of all the other stuff that cut corners. How much did Vern Lundquist want? Like half a million? Oh, yeah. Is that why he's not in it? Vern's like, listen. Vern was like, maybe yes. I have the yes, sir. Everybody knows me that.

1:28:27I'm bigger than McCord. Yeah.

1:28:29Bill Simmons:Koster made all of his golf shots, or most of them. And then. Like Bob Cousy and Blue Chips. There's a bunch of. There was a John Daly in 98. Kept hitting balls in the water and became a 10-cup moment. This golfer named Eddie Pepperell. Oh, yeah. In 2019, ran out of balls. Oh. And that was compared to that. And then you have the Tiger story. Well, the Tiger story is from the 2000 U.S. Open at Pebble Beach, which is, you know, I think some people would point to like the most dominant performance. The pinnacle of Tiger. Yes. And maybe of any golfer in any major in history. And the story is that he had switched balls that week.

1:29:10He had a new Nike golf ball that he put into play. and his standard approach in terms of carrying balls was 9 to 12 balls in his bag. There was a weather delay from Friday into Saturday, so he had to finish his round Saturday morning. He had taken some balls out of his bag because he didn't like the way he was putting on Friday, and he was putting in his hotel room, left them balls behind. They're out on the golf course. A ball gets a scuff, gives it to a kid. By the time they got to the 18th hole, he hooked one into the water and had one single ball left. There is a rule in golf where you are allowed to, if you can find somebody, another competitor that has the exact same manufacturer and type of ball, you can replace it.

1:29:55There's a penalty, but that ball was not replaceable. The Tiger ball, not replaceable because it was a one of one for him for that week. And his caddy asked him to hit an iron off of the 18th hole and did not tell him why. Stevie Williams did not tell Tiger why he asked him to hit an iron off the tee on number 18 on Saturday morning. Because if he had hit that ball into the water, they couldn't have found it. He would have been disqualified. And he would not have won that tournament by 15 strokes. And would have not been the most dominant performance ever in a major. So Tiger didn't question why he told him to hit the iron.

1:30:28And he hit the iron? He did not hit the iron. He hit driver. He's like, why would I hit iron? I want to hit driver. And he hit driver. Wow. Tiger.

1:30:36Bill Simmons:If he had asked Jacko for a ball, Jacko would have been like, fuck off you sure brought more that's right i'm gonna win losing my 15 shots i'll get the trophy what a weird role when i when i play golf i bring like 50 to 70 balls sure and i'll probably lose most of them there was one other research thing i saw that scene where david sims uh is an asshole to the grandparents and the kid those are costner's parents great love that yeah and the kid is the is Koster and Son, right? Yeah. Wow. So they built that, the water hazard hole, they built one and called it Tin Cup Lake. Salome, Texas is actually, they think it's Rankin, Texas, which is near Midland and Fort Stockton.

1:31:22Bill Simmons:I don't know Texas. Midland is Friday Night Lights, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Odessa, but I think it's in the same area. Landman area. Jacko, they talked about a sequel called Cup at Q School, which would have followed Roy as he tried to earn his PGA card. Mid-2000s, Shelton even spent a week at a tour event. It just never happened. I think a mistake by Costner. At that point in his career, I think I would have maybe done it. How good did Costner get at golf? Do we know? What was his handicap? Apparently good, and then stopped playing right after the movie because, again, he was snotty about golf.

1:32:01Bill Simmons:Um... here's a story from, so there's an oral history that golf magazine did in 2016 that, um, now you cannot find on the internet cause they changed our archives, but there were snippets of it available. And, uh, some guy in the oral history tells this story. Um, there was a really tall pine tree and someone said to Phil Mickelson, I bet you can't put your shoulder against the tree, drop a ball and hit it over the tree. The shot basically had to go straight up. Everyone threw in a hundred bucks. There was 1200 in the pot. And he did it. When the ball was still in the air, Mickelson bent over, picked up the money and put it in his pocket.

1:32:39Bill Simmons:Phil Mickelson. No stranger. The legend. Yeah. We'll take one more break and then we'll do Apex Mountain. Chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life. Botox. Onibotulinum toxin A prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine preventive treatment.

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1:33:46Bill Simmons:All right, Apex Mountain. Jack, do you know what Apex Mountain is? I do not. Well, nobody else does either. Nobody can figure it out. It's the peak of somebody's career combined with when they had the most juice. someone or something someone or something kevin costner the answer is no for him did we decide what his was it's dances with wolves okay yeah he directs he stars he wins the oscars he could do any movie he wants after dances wolves cheech baron it's probably somewhere in the late 70s with tommy chong or yeah i actually looked up cheech for this he crushed cars that the whole franchise of cartoons he participated in door the explorer and the cartoon cars he's one of those he's ramon he's one of those vehicles and and he i i mean i he had a long career post this this movie yeah this is probably going to make you throw up but i know him from spy kids no i'm not surprised by that he had a whole second act as so maybe that's that might be maybe that's what it is his second act Don Johnson, Miami Vice.

1:34:56Bill Simmons:Not only his Apex Mountain, but mine. Just being able to watch it. Not laying up, just as a concept in golf. Did it ever get better than this? Turned into a podcast. Those guys. Good job by those guys. West Texas for a movie location. Friday Night Lights. Yeah. Which is Midland was the team they played, right? They were in that area. I think they're next to each other or nearby. Renee Russo. She might have been bigger in Lethal Weapon 3 and 4. Thomas Chronifer was big, right? Yeah, that too. Honestly, it might be this movie. Because after this movie leads to like, she's in three more bangers and is really established.

1:35:43Bill Simmons:And she wasn't the first choice of it. But I think after this movie, she became a first choice. Peter Jacobson wins the U.S. Open in this movie. I'm going to say this is his apex mountain. This is not somebody winning majors in real life. It's a nitpick for the movie, too. The CBS crew in a movie, definitely. Golf movies?

1:36:07Caddyshack.

1:36:07Bill Simmons:I still think it's Caddyshack. There's only three candidates. I still think it's Caddyshack. Caddyshack this, Happy Gilmore? Yeah. It has to be Caddyshack. Caddyshack's like the most quotable movie of all time. And just so much about that has become iconic. Influential, all those guys in it. The only thing I would say is they had two different goals and the golf-sicko appeal of Tin Cup because of the lyrical. It's not it. I know. I would say the other one would be Happy Gilmore. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. It's Happy Gilmore of Caddy Shack. Yeah, it's generational. Yeah. Happy Gilmore 2 will not be as generational.

1:36:44No, I don't think so. Although it might be for 13-year-olds who like Mr. Beast videos, maybe. the waffle house oh no the waffle house has a life of its own it does as a movie location i think oh not for movies but no but like it's just as a thing as a as a meme i think it's been in other movies and and been properly revered that's worth looking at it's

1:37:11Bill Simmons:not i don't think it is i don't think it's apex bound for the u.s open either i think the u.s opens probably had some better moments armadillos not i think if they've been in a in a movie in a better way it's like pretty prominent uh the seven iron what is the seven iron had a like a better tour for well just the fact that house said they have a whole tournament where guys have to play with that based on this movie that's pretty good 65 with it yeah and then uh this is a big one jim nance in a movie jim nance movie wise not career wise but movie wise well movie wise yes but career wise no no okay no how about jim nance and ken venturi together no they had bigger real life golf moments i would say all right i have an apex mountain for you yeah unexpected unexpected sports losses to end the movie when a sports movie ends with a loss yeah is this the apex of that i think there's your friday night lights they lose remember the titans they lose a league of their own loss at the end for for jesus yeah but is this the is this the peak of that might be your thing about the david sims that you actually rooting for the wrong person you should be rooting for laurie petty in that movie yeah is this the best sports loss ever in a movie.

1:38:34Bill Simmons:So the answer, those are all great questions. I love the category, but the answer is Rocky won. Yeah, I was going to ask. He loses in Rocky won. I thought it's a tie. They tie. No, he loses. It wasn't a draw. It wasn't a draw. He lost the majority of the decision. I was making that puzzled face. So I think that's the answer. Because they both hit the ground at the same time, right? I think the best twist on it was probably Friday Night Lights, though. Because they set it up where you really think they're about to win, and then they don't. Yeah. That's a good one. Good category, though. Cruz or Hanks?

1:39:06I mean, this is Hanks by a million, right?

1:39:08Bill Simmons:So this is a version of Hanks that he only brought out in League of Their Own. And it's a version I really like of him. Stubble, drunk, kind of sarcastic Tom Hanks. He just veered away from it. I would love to see Cruz learn how to golf. Like watching Cruz golf is way more interesting and entertaining than watching Tom Hanks golf. Listen, Cruz doing Tin Cup would have been one of the greatest moments of the 90s. Him also trying to become a drunk kind of West Texas. It would have been bizarre casting. He could have done it. We should do a draft. Done it and been a disaster or actually done it? I think he could have done it.

1:39:44Cruz would have demanded that he drilled the shot the first time and won the US. We should do a draft of movies you wish Tom Cruz was in. Tin Cups up there for me. I want to watch him play golf.

1:39:57Bill Simmons:That's really good. We should do that on my podcast. That could be a good mailbag category when we do the Rewatchables mailbag. Scorsese or Spielberg? Probably Spielberg. I agree. Ed Spielberg. Jack always hesitant to be in the Rewatchables, but now he loves it. I kind of want to just have this role in all of it. I was put off by all the categories, but I enjoyed just chiming in. Well, now you know. There you go. What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played? clearly somebody in the Cheech Baron crew. I think it's the TCU guy. The guy who's wearing all the TCU gear who has to be his caddy that one time.

1:40:34Oh, Earl. Yeah, Earl.

1:40:36Bill Simmons:Oh, that guy. He would have been Earl. I love that, by the way, that he's just rocking TCU in every scene. Pickin' Nitz. We hit a bunch of them. She's a sports psychologist in East Bumfuck, Texas. Why wouldn't Sims teach her how to golf? Here's one we didn't hit. Why was David Sims' charity tournament nationally televised and it was one round? what was going on there with a big purse like half a million dollars and it's like he's just oh do you want to be he made it seem like it was this rinky-dink thing but then it's like there's a national crew there i guess he was so famous at the time that if you start your own tournament it's it's a big deal um roy and romeo they're broke but they have no problem breaking an entire set of golf clubs right as they're like hawking stuff at the same time they're just breaking stuff left and right.

1:41:27Did you snap a club that easily back then? The 90s clubs? The 90s clubs you could. It would have hurt. They were. Those steel shafts, they looked like they were steel shafts. I think it would have hurt.

1:41:37Bill Simmons:We talked about this earlier, but Roy getting bombed before his first US Open ever is ludicrous. Nobody's doing that. Nobody is that self-destructive. You'd have to have like a heroin problem. And adding in the sleep deprivation, it was a double whammy by Romeo, where he was already hammered, and then at the end he was like, I gotta be up in three hours? And then he passes out? It's pretty brutal roy finished minus one he shot an 83 62 64 and 78 so if he just got a four or five on that last hole he would have had a 71 so he would have gone 83 62 64 71 62 and 64 back to back would have been like the biggest story of the decade well 62 was the record in the movie right he breaks the record to shoot a 126 and two rounds in a row is when you're a nobody from east bump fuck yeah that would have been a massive massive massive sports story just pointing that out nobody ever shot 6200 major but somebody else uh house was pointing out that our guy who won dm waiter is frank churkinian whatever his name is churkinian churkinian a couple weird quotes from him where he's like we gotta keep an eye on this tin cup guy it's like the final round he's in the final matchup.

1:42:51Bill Simmons:It's like, we're all keeping an eye on him. He's in first place. Get a camera on that guy. Three holes left. There's three holes left. You would be following him everywhere. He might be the story. But then the big one, which I don't think we hit strongly enough, was we never see what happens with David Sims. It's unbelievable. Because if he birdies 18, he gets into a playoff with Jacobson. He lays up. He lays up. He's just got to go up and down. Up and down, he gets a he's in a playoff. He has to stand there and wait for the entirety of the dopey Roy to hit the ball into the water. But Roy, just the tournament ends.

1:43:28Bill Simmons:Roy walks off. We don't see Peter Jacobson celebrating. There's like 19 things going wrong. Everybody rushed the green. He couldn't putt out because they tore up the green to try to jump in the water to get his ball. Tournament's over. Sorry, David Sims. Just pick it up, Dave. We'll give you a four or whatever. Yeah. This is really crazy. Anyway, sequel, prequel, prestige tv all black cast are untouchable prestige tv so they made stick which a lot of people like on apple tv which is a little a little like a cousin why'd you make a face um i i'm only halfway through it okay um but it's like that same kind of golf pro kind of a never was um how about a i like a prequel college days sims and mcavoy university of houston also university of Houston, Jim Nance.

1:44:18Nance could have been there as like the student broadcaster. That's right. Nance would have known that. House just blacked out. I'm there for all of this. And the prequel could have a better reason why he's called Tin Cup. Yeah, you find out in that movie. A college golf competition movie would be great.

1:44:34Bill Simmons:Yeah. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Longlegs, or Wilford Brimley? in the firm. I'm so excited Jacko is here because we finally get to do Mike and the Mad Dog on the rewatchables. Mike and the Mad Dog, the next A &W fan after Roy McAvoy shot a 12. Do you want to be Dog or Francesa? Either one. You're a better Dog. I mean, Mike, you gotta take the putt and take the drop, Mike. What are you doing there? You're gonna be kidding me. It's a humongous humongous mistake. Humongous. You just, you get in at five.

1:45:16Bill Simmons:You take the playoffs, dog. I mean, you're nobody from Texas. You got to take the drop. What are you doing? I mean, I know they're dumb in Texas, dog, but this was dumb even for people in Texas. I cannot believe it's a humongous mistake. So that's your answer? This would have been a better show if Mike and the Mad Dog did the day after. That should have been the closing credits. That should have been the last five minutes of the movie. Mike and the Mad Dog would have been amazing. Dog just having an absolute stroke. And he's right back. What are you doing? Just one Oscar. Who gets it? I brought this up when we watched it.

1:45:46Cheech Marin, when he does that speech after he breaks all the clubs. Oh, when he gets his Oscar speech? Yeah, that was like that monologue. It was Oscar worthy.

1:45:53Bill Simmons:It's not the soundtrack. That won a Grammy. I'm giving it to Don Johnson just because I love Don Johnson. Now that I have the studio, I'm bringing Don Johnson. I'm inviting him on the podcast. You got to dive into his life. I admire Cheech's range. I would go for Cheech. What do you have, Craig? Cheech is great. I couldn't think of it. Probably unanswerable questions. The dick measuring contest would have been amazing if they had actually filmed it. These are two Hollywood legends, Don Johnson and Kevin Costner. Pretty notable reputations. So thank God. That would have been an NC-17. Strong stick man.

1:46:30Bill Simmons:Is this the most revered golf movie or is it Happy Gilmore? What's the most beloved golf movie right now? Did we say Katyschek? No, I'm not talking about... I'm saying right now the most... Most Americans, if you did a poll, if we did a poll, like if it was part of the 2028 election and you had to vote on, what is your favorite golf movie? This probably doesn't win. Does Happy Gilmore win? It's hard for me to say. I'm probably skewed because of my age, but I think Happy Gilmore is more famous. I mean, the fact that they just made the second one and it was so big, Sandler's fame. I think it's more of a slapstick comedy, which I think lives on a little bit easier.

1:47:07Bill Simmons:But this is more revered in the golf community, I think, because of how they handled it. More of a movie about golf. Yeah, and the - With the actual PGA. There's proper authenticity to it. But I mean, I think popularity-wise, it's happy. Also revered in the premature Jack O 'Hare community as well. Yeah, up there in Forrest Gump. Fucking Roy McAvoy. That's a prequel. Yeah. The Zawantane Award for what happened the next day, we don't get to give this out very often. And we never had a sequel. So Roy becomes a national story. I think multiple sponsors. he would have cashed in big time probably blown all the money written a book or he just gets drunk and kicks himself because he was already starting to beat himself up about I just lost the US Open well he had to pay back the IRS first maybe it goes dark it becomes like traffic he just starts doing heroin but he's so happy he got the girl are they married she has a viable career path If she goes on tour working with tour professionals, then that dummy should just go on tour and play, and he could be, you know.

1:48:17Bill Simmons:So he tries to get his PGA card, so how long does that take? He has to go there. He had to go to Q school, and back then it was like, you know, this multi-layer, multi-round thing. I'm guessing if he could shoot a 62 and a 64 back-to-back in North Carolina, he could probably become a. And then you get the same issue because if he goes on tour and becomes a good golfer, and now his girlfriend is mentoring other golfers, he becomes David Sims in this scenario and the other golfers that she is now working with become Roy McAvoy. I think she would have to I think she'd have to end her practice. I think it's a conflict of interest if she's basically helping other golfers and her husband or boyfriend is trying to compete against them.

1:48:56Bill Simmons:I gotta find out for Mallory what is her reaction to Kevin Costner not really getting it done in the sex scene. I think the excuses would have been plentiful from the Mallory side. it was late night he was tired from the course a lot of drinks definitely alcohol still hung over alright this one goes to all of you what piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie I narrowed it down to the Roy's 3 wood or 7 iron or the 10 cup fan club hat that's pretty sweet the tournament worn there's only one that's it it's like right behind house right now yeah i think that's probably the answer yeah yeah what do you think jacko one of the armadillos stuffed taxidermy or the pelican maybe the pelican and the armadillo if you wanted to go taxidermy a signed letter from the pita member who was on set making sure the pelican was fine right i like the hat yeah the visor the visor is the best one yeah well imagine who's in the studio right now what would be a bigger conversation piece like if i had the seven iron behind house seven iron would be cool or the whole bag that red bag with the tassels bag yeah the grit the leather bag or the last bag the the leather bag bag is like a red leather bag with with the tassels on every club cover i just realized that golden tassel head covers was a throwback isn't that what the strip club was called the golden tassel yeah was that like the ex-girlfriend because she owned it owned him now and that they had to do like a little shout out with the covers renee russo pretty cool with The ex-girlfriend's tripper just hanging around.

1:50:38Yeah, they were turning.

1:50:38Bill Simmons:They became best friends pretty quick. Right away. Oh, that should have been a pick and nits. Yeah. She would have hated that one, right? She's like, oh, that's Roy for you. She's like, okay. What about a framed broken three wood? Like if you had that in a frame, the snapped three wood? Oh, from the qualifying thing? Yeah. That's good. That's good. Stuff Pelican. Coach Finstack award best life lesson. I guess it's don't lay up. Craig had trouble finding a lesson. Be true to yourself. I feel like it's both don't lay up and lay up. Just figure out the don't lay up, lay up thing better. Well, because at the end, this is what I don't get.

1:51:12He doesn't lay up, and you're like, you know what? He's stuck to his guns. But then at the final scene in bed or on the couch, he's like, you know, I guess what I learned is sometimes you should listen to your brain, not just your heart. Yeah, that's a good point. So I'm like, lay up or don't lay up? I don't know. He's pretty stupid. It's not really be true to yourself, because at the end, he's like, I shouldn't have been true to myself. I should have gone with my head and not my heart. I threw away the US Open. Yeah.

1:51:34Bill Simmons:Double feature choice house. I don't think so. You have to make one. No is not an acceptable answer. No one's ever said that before. That was great.

1:51:50Bill Simmons:What movie would you watch before or after this movie if you had to go to a double feature? That's the category. Thomas Crown Affair immediately. I can't get enough Rene Russo. Wow. What do you have? Happy Gimler? I love golf movies. I love just hanging out at the golf course. I did Caddyshack. What do you have, Jack? Well, yeah, because you and I are of the age where we would say Caddyshack over Happy Gilmore, but I think depending on your age, either is an acceptable choice. Who won the movie?

1:52:19It's probably Costner, but part of me wants to say Jim Nance. I mean, it's easy for me. It's definitely Jim Nance.

1:52:28Bill Simmons:Jim Nance won the movie. He does a lot for the movie. I do think the last hour, him being there just makes the whole thing so much more dramatic and intense and realistic and enjoyable it's great jacko i want to say jerkinian because i liked his performance so much but i really did and i think that he played himself and america got to see it because i've read stuff about him but uh the answer is costner i mean the whole thing's a vehicle for him okay so the answer is costner because this is kind of the end of this runny head he's moving by the late 90s we're doing for love of the game a movie that i really like but some people don't but it's it's we're at the tail end of this incredible no hits the yankees that's why you like well that's i mean that part's great but we this is the tail end of this incredible a plus list run he has and it's it's kind of not the same after this um and he also exacted as much as he could out of different versions of this persona and now we move into like older and then we move into draft day kevin costner and yellowstone kevin costner he's also a piece of a bygone era and of actors that like i don't know because i think he's like 40 41 in this movie costner yeah i don't know who you cast now this movie wouldn't be made now but i don't know who you get to kind of be the everyman good looking athletic kind of play any sport looks like a normal person doesn't have you know fillers in his face i don't really know who who that is now is it it could ham do it or is he too pretty it could have been ham's a little old now but yeah it could have been ham 10 years ago maybe ham's a good one it is like a ham kind of part he's got he could grow the stubble out yeah you have to look like you have to be attractive but also look like a normal person you can't be too ripped you know you can't be too yeah that rules out affleck yeah everyone's too old now there's no 40 year old generation of guys that are like the costner the harrison fords we don't have that because everyone's fucking british now and they just like look produce white american actors anymore who Who play this part?

1:54:30Bill Simmons:They're all British dudes. They're too pretty. Everyone's too manicured, ripped now, you know? Yeah, like Chalamet, I'm not buying is Ray McElroy. It's like maybe Glenn Powell. Glenn Powell's also... He's too pretty, too. He's too pretty. He's really good looking. Shia LaBeouf. Well, Costner's really good looking, though. I think Costner's a little bit more gruff. I think you hit it. I think it might be Glenn Powell. Is it Glenn Powell? Yeah, he would just have to basically kind of bang himself up a little bit. Yeah. see i think i said when we watched it i think costner was too pretty for this i didn't i think it would have been better with like michael keaton like a disheveled michael keaton like down on his luck and he'd be like a little wisecracky you know costner you're not gonna buy that he's like down on his luck and living in a trailer he's too good looking renee russo's not throwing it all away for keaton well that's yeah you gotta get rid of her in the movie too then if you're going now you just have two mediocre looking people one thing that happens in movies like this is the the people around the person who's already fucked up his life, who are also throwing away their lives to basically be in his cult.

1:55:31Bill Simmons:Hitch their wagon. It's like, what is it? Cheech Marin's like 48 at this point. When do you give up on Roy McDevoy? He's in love with Roy. Let's be honest. So that's where you might go in the, you know, but then he steps in with the, Oh, to get, maybe to make Roy jealous. Maybe. It's like, I'm now I'm with your 50 year old ex-girlfriend. The whole crew of that guy. It's like, what, what is their life choice led to where like, You're just hanging out at this down in the market, down in the mouth driving range where there's no money to be made and there's no clientele. You just hang out and drink beer and shoot the shit.

1:56:05Bill Simmons:Well, 30 years later, they're on their way to January 6th. Jesus. Heard there's something going on in D.C. Is there a Waffle House in D.C.? Let's make a ride. All right, that was a really fun, interesting rewatchable. Good, I enjoyed it. Executive produced by John O 'Connell, a.k.a. Jacko. Thank you. Thanks to Craig. I don't get to ask you what we thought about the movie since you're one of the co-hosts. Joe House, pleasure as always. Thanks to Gahau and Veronica as well. And we'll be back next week on The Rewatchables.

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