Exclusive Interview with WWE Hall of Famer Booker T

31:25Yeah. You know, it's all about, you know, I'll wake your ass. Yeah. And if I could do that and still get a laugh, come on, man. Yeah. He's a powerful man right there. Things he's done, man. A lot of people just don't understand the business, man. I mean, like I said, if it was pro wrestling, I mean, MMA, it would be different. If it was boxing, it would be different. But it's professional wrestling, you know. I always say, you know, you're not going to be in a real fight with someone in a bar. You know, you just, you know, he push you. And next thing, you know, y 'all start throwing hands. And then he hits you with a good shot.

31:58Bam. You go down. And then he jumps up on the bar and do a 450.

32:08That's true. Who is this dude? It's not going to happen. So that's why it's professional wrestling, guys. Right. Yeah. You got to be calmed down a little bit. And then it doesn't stand. I'll tell you what, though. If I did see someone do a 450 in a bar fight, I'm going to be like, that's a bad man right there. Can I get a picture? Think about it. Think about it. No problem with you, sir. This is crazy. This is a wonderful one moment. Respect. Respect. All right. Now, we got to take it back. Let's take it back. You know, this is how I know it's going to be a good one. Because we got our usual way to do things for our first time.

32:47I don't like usual ways. I like when we can just be personal. Booker T, how can you, 25, 30 years, man. So much. You've been around the world and aye, aye, aye. But we need to know, when did you get bit by the wrestling bug? What was the moment where you saw professional wrestling and was like, hmm, this might be the path for me? I never dreamt of being a professional wrestler or anything like that. I never played sports. I was a drum major in school. 6 '3", 6 '4"? Man. I was in a band. Okay. I never got hit as a kid. I used to play, like, you know, stuff in the neighborhood. But never anything organized.

33:32But I always loved professional wrestling. It was always cool. And I always knew who the good wrestlers were, the ones who was, you know, working at the top level. I always knew who the job guys were and stuff like that. So it's something that I love. But Hogan, man, you know, Hogan, you know, pretty much changed the whole name of the game when he was doing his thing. I used to love freaking Hogan, man. And he just captivated me. I remember I got locked up. I went to prison. And me and one of my boys in there, his name was Butler. We used to work out together all the time, play basketball together.

34:08And, you know, we used to call each other out, super brothers. you know and everything was surrounded like Hulk just stupid locked up that's what we're thinking about and then when I got out I was working my brother got me a job I'm working for this guy and my brother was thinking about going to wrestling school and my brother finally found a guy Ivan Pusky actually and he asked me if I wanted to try it out and I was like man I'd love to but I didn't got the money because it was three grand, and the guy that I was working for sponsored me to go to the wrestling school. And, man, I went to the wrestling school, and I always describe it as it was like deja vu.

34:53It seemed like a place that I had been many, many times before. It seemed like I had done it in another life. And I picked up wrestling like that. It was like second nature. And, you know, from that point on, it was like, boom, I'm in. This is it. But I was looking for a way out. I was looking for something. I never knew. No one had ever asked me as a kid what I wanted to be in life. And I never knew what I wanted to be until I found professional wrestling. And then when I found it, I was like, man, they're going to have to kick me out this party. Wow, yeah, bro. I said, I want to be the best.

35:29I said, I want to be the best in the locker room. And that's the only thing I was thinking about. I wasn't thinking about the money. I wasn't thinking about the fame or anything like that. I was just thinking about being the best in that freaking locker room. And I wanted everybody to know it. And I strive to be that. And I wanted my name to go down with the greats in professional wrestling. And I think I achieved it. I really do. No doubt. Did you have a, you know, you say that it came so naturally to you. Do you have a welcome to wrestling moment? You know, a lot of the guests we've had on here talked about running the ropes.

36:06you know how the ropes cutting them up or you know first bumps yeah that that bump that that might have put you on your ass one time you know do you have a welcome wrestling moment nah man i was there bro i was real good i always worked in the main event man uh on the smallest circuits all the way when i you know i I was in the main event, my first pay-per-view in WCW. I was in the main event, the first pay-per-view I had ever been in. It's extraordinary. I got to WCW in two years after being in the business. But like I said, when I watched wrestling, I knew what it was. I knew it wasn't real.

36:53I knew it was entertainment. I knew it was a performance. and the best performers, you know, boom, they're like Denzel Washington. They work at the top level. But you got to be smart. Denzel didn't start at the top. He probably started in a commercial or something, and he probably had no lines. You know what I mean? So you got to be – Then he got carbon popping for the first time. Exactly. So for me, I remember my first match, though, my first real match. It was at this club called the Avalon on Richmond Avenue. My first real match. And I was literally a couple of months into the business, and I was working with this guy named Dusty Wolf.

37:29His name was Dale Wolf sometime, but sometime it was Dusty Wolf. And I had watched him on WWF back in the day, and he had worked everybody, Hogan, Savage, Steamboat. You name them. You can name the list of guys that this guy has worked. And he never won a match. He lost every match I ever seen him in. And I was working him that night, and I was going over. It was my first big real match. And I remember going up to Dusty Wolf and I go, Mr. Wolf, he goes, yeah, kid. I say, is there any way you can get me over in this match tonight? I say, I've seen you work with everybody. I say, I've seen you work with this guy, this guy, this guy.

38:15And I say, I know you're smarter than I am. You know what I mean? So I say, if you could just help me out, you know, show me the ropes. and he goes, heck yeah, kid, I'll show you the ropes. And boom, man, he went out there, man, and he freaking had me doing stuff I never would have imagined or thought I could do on my own. And that's when I really learned, you know, from the beginning I was learning. And he went through the match and put me over a small package or whatever it was, one, two, three. And I got out of the ring and I came back to the back and I was so excited. Ivan Pusky came up to me and he cursed me out so bad.

38:49Son of a bitch. That isn't what I told you to do. You don't need to do that. You need to do this. He just went on. I'm like, what the heck just happened? You know? My confidence went from up here all the way down here in like a blink of an eye. But then there was this one guy. His name was Joe Blanchard. Tully Blanchard's father, actually. And he came up to me and he goes, kid, I don't know what the hell he's talking about. that was one of the best matches I ever seen a green kid ever have. And I go, oh, man, I'm back on top of the world. Oh, man, you know, so I just didn't do it the way he taught it.

39:29I didn't do it the way he, because the way I teach in my wrestling school, there's no wrong way of doing it as long as you do it right. Huh. Okay. So that's WWA, right? The Western Wrestling Alliance. Yeah, the Western Wrestling Alliance with Ivan Putzky. Polish power. Now that's where we get GI bro. Can you share with us how GI bro came to be? Yeah. Yeah. The guy that my brother, you know, had hooked me up and I got a job while I was working at this warehouse and, you know, some store, it was like, you know, storage units and whatnot. I was cleaning out one of the storage units one day and it was an army hat in there.

40:06And I took the army hat and I liked it and I kept it, you know, cleaned it up. And I came to practice one day and I had the army hat on and uh my coach he goes that's it he said you you GI bro and I go GI bro he's like yeah I go all right whatever you know so that's the way GI bro happened but for me uh man I loved the character was so cool you know because I kind of like based the character kind of like off Hogan uh if you go back and watch some old GI bro clips you'll see the resemblance. And I used to go to these high schools and those kids, they used to mob GI bro and it was like, man, I'm on to something, you know.

40:49And I was working a regular job back at that time and I would have to take the cash to the bank. And I would get recognized because literally eight weeks, eight weeks out of the wrestling school, we had a television show live in Houston, Texas, on Channel 39, CW, on Saturday nights at 10 p.m. And I was one of the stars on that show. So I was being recognized around the city of Houston. I was still working, you know, a six-day-a-week job. So for me, it was such an exciting time for me because, there again, guys, like I say, you know, the hardships in life, you know, that I had to go through. I lost my father when I was really young, lost my mother, you know, high school, prison, and then coming out.

41:41And then all of a sudden, everything that was on this side, it just flipped upside down. It totally just flipped. 180. God just say, I'm going to bless you. You know what I mean? You got one shot. You got one shot at this. And it seemed like that's what happened. So for me, it was the greatest time of my life. Also, yeah, he's still on the CW. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And Reality of Wrestling is on the CW as well. You know, so it's nuts, man. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, Booker being someone to look up to who did have those hardships early on in life, man, and you had to overcome so much. And then, you know, like you said, you went away.

42:22But then you came back and you decided, you made that choice that your life wasn't going to stay on that path. You were going to go a different route. And look at you today, man. You've done it. And that's an inspiration right there, Booker. And I know you know that there's so many young brothers out there who might still be in that type of struggle, but they can look to a man like you and know that you might not become a six-time world champion in wrestling, but you can definitely change it. You can change your path. You can change your life around if you believe in yourself. Yeah, man. I mean, you know, you got to want it, though.

42:55You got to really want it. You got to have somebody pushing for you at the same time. You know, I've had a lot of people in my corner, you know, pushing for me and, you know, and I didn't want to let them down, you know, more and more than anything. Like my brother, you know, my brother, he told me, you know, I'm going to help you get a job. And he said, I don't care if that job is washing windows, you know, sweeping floors, whatever it is, digging ditches, whatever it is, I need you to do that job to the best of your ability to whatever comes next. and that was the choice he gave me. And I go, yeah, all right, I can do it.

43:36I could have said, nah, man, I ain't down with that. Coming from where I came from, and that's the mentality of a lot of these young people today. They feel entitled. They feel like something should be given to them. But I came out of prison and I said, man, I'm a convict. No one should trust me. I got to earn their trust. and I try to make sure young people understand that if they want to get on the right path in this life. I'm very astute at what these young people are doing today and they're just killing themselves. I've just been watching this trial of the Fulio 5, Julio Fulio. And all those young guys, the youngest guy, Sean Gathright, did it when he was 18, just got convicted at 20, and now his life's over.

44:22A convicted life without the possibility of parole. 20 years old. Come on. You know, so I try to preach, let's make, let's make the right decisions, especially as, as you know, black men, we got to make the right decisions if we want to, you know you know, make it in this life. You know, we've got so many things against us. And one of those things is us, you know, and we always talk about, you know, these kids in Chicago, and you don't think they don't want to break the cycle, but if that's the only thing, you know, you're going to, you're going to go right back to it. You know, that's just, that's just life.

44:56That's just instinct of survival. That's what this thing is about more than anything. We've got to figure out how to survive without killing each other at the same time. Yeah, when Straight Outta Compton came out, in a lot of my press, I was saying that the black community is our heroes that we are shown on TV are all in forms of entertainment in some kind of way. either the ball or the microphone, you know? And the NBA pick 60 people a year, you know? Like, that's nothing. Out of all the schools that have a basketball team of 12 to 15, 60 of them are going to get picked every year. So, like, football, same thing.

45:46Like, you know, not the number, but, like, it's a small percentage that are going to make it through that. and an even smaller percentage that are going to be a successful rapper you know there's we need to show more avenues of triumph yeah you know possibilities and things like that and you know you you touched on it a little bit but a question that we like to bring up around here is we talk about how the road to success is not straight all right there are turns and there are there's roadblocks that you gotta you know maybe re-navigate it's not a straight road to success but it's also not a trip you take by yourself who in your life we like to give you the opportunity to thank them or bring them up or shine a light on them give them their flowers who in your life we wouldn't we wouldn't have the Booker T that we know today without them who are those people to you

46:50um you know like i like i said my brother definitely uh was like an inspiration you know he was like a role model i always wanted to be like my brother when i was a kid you know i grew up um you know but um you know the one guy that helped me uh his name is bruce gassarch He's the guy who believed in me, you know, and Jewish guy. And, you know, helped me get my first car. Like I say, put me through wrestling school. You know, he was there, you know, when I went in the Hall of Fame. He came all the way from overseas, you know, to come to be a part of the Hall of Fame ceremony. Just because I appreciated him so much.

47:32You know, the only thing he asked me was just to pay it forward. He never asked me for anything. this one lady her name was Brenda Brenda Sullivan and she she was she was the you know the manager of this apartment complex man she loved me so much man she believed in me so much you know she gave me strength white woman too white woman you know that's crazy you know you know like so many like wrestlers like you know like maniac Mike Davis passed along he did so much for me he used to in the Global Wrestling Federation he wanted for me so much you know I mean he even said vicious God rest his soul you know if it wasn't for Sid Vicious I would probably would be sitting here because Sid called my brother and I when we was at the Global Federation one night on a on a on a Friday night and you know got us on the phone and said man we're gonna get you guys at WCW and then you know boom a few months later we're in WCW not just in WCW but we was living in his apartment it.

48:33We stayed there for like three months. He put us up just because he believed in us. That's why I say I've had so many people that have believed in me, but there again, I had to gain that trust. I had to earn that trust. I had to go out there and work really, really hard for that. There again, I feel like God said to me, you got one shot. Don't screw this up. Don't screw it up, all right, because you got so many people watching you. You know what I mean? So many people are going to be coming up behind you. And I saw so many, you know, that come before me that didn't get a chance to finish. I wanted to be able to finish this thing.

49:13And I know I'm a role model. I know I am to so many people. And they tell me every day, man, I walked to the airport today, and I don't know, before I got to my car, I might have had five people say, man, you changed my childhood. Yeah. So for me, that's a huge honor, man. Huge. Huge. I think everyone who watches our podcast frequently knows, you know, they know O'Shea from what he does as an actor. That's his day job. For me, I'm on air with Rich Eisen every day on his daily sports show, three hours every day on Disney Plus, ESPN Radio. And today, Booker, about half an hour before you came on, we had a group of students from Michigan here, which is Rich's alma mater.

49:58And, you know, they were asking them questions about the business, this, that, and the third. And I kind of chimed in at the end. And it's kind of exactly what you said. I said, be someone who people like to be around. I said, because I've gotten further in this life based on the fact that people, for whatever reason, have a tendency to genuinely like me than of any other tangible skill set I have. And I guess that is a skill set. But I was feeling when you said it. There were people that were helping. You know, Rich, and I said this to the kids today, you heard it, Shay, he hates it when I say this, but that man, Rich Eisen changed my life.

50:34He took me from being an off-camera producer to putting me on air with him, and, you know, he has a high reputation, you know, and he risked, I'm not saying I was going to go left or right, but, like, he took a chance on me, and I always appreciate him doing that. one person, I better mention him because if I don't, he's going to see this interview and I'm going to have to talk about it.

51:00No, that's Michael Cole. Michael Cole? Okay. No, no. Michael Cole changed my life, man. He really did, man. How so? Michael Cole put me on the commentary team for no damn reason. The thing is, I knew I sucked. I knew I knew I bad. I sucked at that desk when I was doing it. And I stayed there for like three or four years. And then I left and I came back. I'm like, why does Cole keep me around? But Cole saw something in me. You know what I mean? He knew I could do the job. But he knew I had to be me when I was doing the job. And finally, I'm getting the chance to be me at NXT and doing that job.

51:44But there's no way. You know, I should be doing what I'm doing right now. I really shouldn't be. I really should not be doing what I'm doing. If it wasn't for Michael Cole, you know, bringing me a part of the broadcast team and believing in me and working with me and working with me is amazing. He's an amazing dude. He really is. I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self-injecting with the Vivgard Hytrulo pre-filled syringe, which contains F-Gartigamide Alpha and Hyaluronidase QVFC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time.

52:27It's my treatment, my way. Visit VivgardMyWay.com. That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T MyWay.com. And talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrulo. Brought to you by Argenics. Buster Olney here for La Quinta by Wyndham. Summer work travel can feel like extra innings, long days, late nights, and not a lot of room to stretch out, especially when your hotel room feels more like the dugout than the clubhouse. But when you stay at La Quinta by Wyndham, you can step up to spacious suites that give you room to relax, recharge, and get ready for the next day. I always feel like I need that when I'm traveling on the road covering ballgames.

53:06Plus, you can earn Wyndham Rewards points with every qualified stay. because when you've got space to unwind, you're always playing at your best. Tonight, La Quinta. Tomorrow, you shine. Book your next work trip at LaQuinta.com. Terms and conditions apply. So there's an R word, I guess, that we could shout out to Michael Cole right now, and that word is Booker T. Respect. Much to his chagrin. Much to his chagrin. Much to his chagrin. So back in the early 90s, Shea, you might not know this. Right now, Booker, you know, Shea and I, we're here at No Contest Wrestling. We are the only wrestling podcast on ESPN's platform.

53:48Recognize! Which is a big deal for us, you know, which we piggybacked off the Rich Eisen show to get here. But in the early 90s, you were with the Global Wrestling Federation. A lot of people don't know ESPN used to air the GWF back in the day. And that's where the Ebony Experience came together. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that? No, my brother actually made that happen. I was following my brother like I had always did, but my brother was getting a tryout at the Global Wrestling Federation, and Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert was the guy that we was going to be seeing. Actually, not my bad.

54:30Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert was the guy that we did see. And Hot Stuff, I was talking to my brother and whatnot, whatnot, And he goes, you know, who's this guy? And he goes, well, that's my brother. And he goes, is he a worker? Yeah, he's a worker. Have you guys ever tag teamed together? And we was like, yeah, we tagged together. But we had never tagged together.

54:52And then he goes, well, I tell you what, guys, just to be straight up with you, we're looking for a black tag team. And we was like, well, sure, here we are. And he's like, I tell you what, guys, what I'm going to do, man, We're going to really spruce this thing up. Hot Stuff Eddie Gilbert was the guy responsible for Booker T and Stevie Ray. My brother, his name is not his real name, but Booker T, he said, man, that sounds cool. I like Booker T, but we need something to go with it. And he came to my brother and he goes, Stevie Ray, how does that sound? Boom. Next thing you know, with Booker T and Stevie Ray, as a tag team, the Ebony Experience.

55:34And the reason we went to Ebony Experience, we actually gave ourselves that name because it used to be a black wrestler way back in the day. And we'd never seen him win a match. But his name, when he was a black guy with a mask on and his name was Mr. Ebony. Okay. So we just stole a little bit from him and put the experience on it. And the rest is history. But the thing was, it still almost never happened because Eddie gave us the gimmick, the character and everything and we were supposed to come back in a couple of weeks to have our debut and we came back for our debut and we was looking for Eddie to get this thing going and Eddie had got fired.

56:22Yeah, so we was like, Eddie told us this, Eddie told us that and it was like, look guys, Eddie's gone. Only thing we can do was give you a tryout. It went from having this gimmick, doing this, wearing these cool clothes, these cool names, to getting a tryout. And we went out, boom, and we rocked it, man, and the rest is history. Shout out to Stevie Ray, who we kept saying, your brother, but we didn't actually name him yet. Yes, Stevie Ray. Shout out to Stevie Ray, who, like, I got friends to this day who I still call fruit booties, and they don't know where it came from. All right? the fruit booties and the yaks and I say it and now some of my friends get it but they're like where did this come from if I say that I get in trouble even though all the stuff I say I don't but that one I'm definitely getting in trouble I mean through all that you know through your your wrestling career you know that as has lasted the test of time what uh you know I'd like to know just so we could put our mind into your mind a little bit.

57:31Were there some moves that you didn't like taking too well? We know they all hurt a little bit. Was there any particular thing that you were like, oh, I gotta make sure I get myself ready for this one? Well, I never took anything that I didn't want to take. Oh, that's for me. Good rule. I never picked guys up that was over 200 pounds if they didn't help me. I stopped taking backdrops when I was like 26 or 27 and I got in the business when I was 25 so certain things I didn't want to put stress on my body because I knew I could hurt myself or whatever you know I didn't do it well and longevity was my key I was thinking about walking when this thing was over I got 18 holes to play on Sunday and I ain't got time I saw that master's flag.

58:24I was like, what's going on back there? No, I'm serious, man. I got a simulator right behind us and everything. But no, I'm serious about, I was serious about retiring. I started thinking about retiring when I was 30 years old. I got here when I was 25 and I started thinking about retiring when I was 20, when I was 30 because I was at one of the great American bashes and I was sitting next to one of my heroes, Wahoo McDaniels. He had came back for a match. And Chief was like in his 50s at that time, and he was having problems. He was struggling to get his boots on. And I was like, God, man, I got to figure out how to get out of this.

59:08Because I just started thinking. My mind just started flooding. So I started trying to figure out what was my plan? What was my game plan? Of course, I started my school over 20 years ago. That was one of my game plans, but another one was the way I performed. I always said I had a house show routine. I had an overseas routine. I had a TV routine, and then I had a pay-per-view routine. All of them were different. You only got certain things in certain places just because I was thinking about the bump cart. You only got so many bumps that you can punch on that card. It's like the cafeteria card when you're a kid, your lunch card.

59:55It's like that. A free subcard. Yeah, I had that. I had that free lunch card. Okay. So I've been looking for the fries and the cheeseburger. You know what I mean? But you got so many bumps on that card, and I really was meticulously thinking about how can I get through my career without beating my body up too bad. I've never had any major surgeries. I don't have any metal in my body. I don't plan on getting any replacements or anything like that. And I'm still trying to just stay motivated as much as I possibly can. How'd that mentality come, Book? You're 25. You're new in the game. You're looking at Chief Wahoo McDaniel, one of the greats.

1:00:44when did you realize or what made you realize because if you're that young you shouldn't be thinking you shouldn't really be thinking that far ahead what gave you as Mick Foley would say the testicular fortitude maybe to go and tell somebody yo I'm not doing this I'm not taking these bumps at such a young age in the game Just life lessons, you know what I mean? Nothing lasts forever. Nothing lasts forever. And you gotta try to, you know, it's like wrestling. It's like for me, if you ask me, you know, like me and O’Shea, we're gonna be working tonight. You know? It's the main event. You know, it's in Madison Square Garden.

1:01:31You know, first thing I want to know is how much time we got. because I got to figure out how to stretch that time. And that's what I'm trying to do, boy. I'm trying to stretch this time. I'm trying to stretch every year. I'm 61, man. I'm 61. For me, I'm still thinking about the future. I'm still thinking about what's next. I'm not thinking about the past or anything like that. I'm thinking about what's next and what I can build. Reality of wrestling is my crown jewel that I want to really take to the next level because I want to be the, you know, I don't want to be WWE. I don't want to be as big as WWE.

1:02:08You understand what I'm saying? I want to be able to make that paper too. I want to be able to leave a legacy, you know, something for my kids, something that they're going to be able to, you know, manage for the rest of their lives, generational wealth. So I'm thinking about the future. So I lost my mom, my dad when I was 10 months old. Never got a chance to meet him. I lost my mom when I was, you know, 13. You know, there again, you know, seeing, you know, my best friend, you know, commit suicide, you know. I've seen so much stuff, you know, the kid coming up. I've been in places that I shouldn't have been seeing stuff.

1:02:48You know, so for me, life is precious, man. Life is so freaking precious. You know, I got twins now, you know, 15 years old. My son is like so smart. You know, my daughter. I got a chance to go see her do a performance last week and she was singing, doing a solo. And, you know, we was just thinking about going to support our daughter. Yeah. And I'd be damned if she don't pull a Beyonce. Yeah. We didn't even know she could sing. Yeah. You know what I mean? So for me, man, I'm getting a chance to see things, you know, my father didn't get a chance to see. My mother didn't get a chance to see. So life for me is about trying to stretch this thing.

1:03:30It's time. Time is precious. Stretch as far as I possibly can. I think there was a song, I want to say Onyx maybe, that said the only thing I ever lost I couldn't find was time. I always think about that, man. That's the one thing that you can't. Yeah, I remember that line. Yeah, I can't. I lost my wallet. Oh, I found it. I lost my watch. But that time, man, it's gone, man. It's gone, brother. I'd just like to remind our viewers that Michael Jordan went bald because of Onyx. that's what they said that's what Fredro would love to tell you that's what they said bro who am I to call him a liar now I was going to wait a little bit for this but you know I heard reality of wrestling heard him talk about boots heard you talk about your kids and I can't help but think about the woman who still holds the record for most times on the note contest wrestling podcast and that's Roxanne Perez Roxanne, Roxanne Roxanne told us she's a little prodigy she told us one time where you know, Book might have got at her a little bit told her she wasn't all that she wasn't ready so we're, you gotta know Book, like I said, Roxanne's been on I think two, three times?

1:04:46Yeah, two or three so we're big Roxanne fans here but she told us that even as she's on Zoom telling us this story I could see the fear kind of happening in her eyes a little bit. Yeah, you could see it in her eyes. So I guess you laugh and you know that story. Could you share your side? That's a good question. You know, Dayton, Texas. I know exactly what you're talking about. No, you know, Roxanne's always been special. She's always been so special since day one, making that trip on that bus coming all the way to reality wrestling fantasy camp. It's where it all started at. You know, my five-hour camps I do on Sundays, like once every three, four months or something like that.

1:05:29And from day one, I was like, man, she was so small. She was smaller than my daughter at that time, literally. And like I said, my daughter just turned 15. And she was smaller. She's definitely smaller now. But she was so special. And she was so smart. She learned the dialogue of professional wrestling, the Shakespeare, the Romeo and Juliet, Phantom of the Opera, you know, of what this thing was about. So, he's so young. And she was, she just, she was truly a prodigy. But I treat all my kids the same. I treat them all the same. I don't cut them no slack. If they do well, I'm going to pat them on the back.

1:06:10If they're slacking, I'm going to need to let them know they're slacking. just because I always say before you have a chance at making it in the ring, you've got to be able to make it in the locker room. You can't make it in the locker room. You have no chance at making it in the ring. You know what I mean? So it's a protocol to everything, and respect is everything. So for her to show up and not be prepared, because I tell my guys preparation is the, I tell them all. And if they don't, you know, remember it and they ever forget it, they're going to lose themselves. Preparation is the only luck you're ever going to have.

1:06:54Preparation. It's the only luck. That's your best luck is to be prepared for the situation. And her music was playing. And she hadn't even got her boots on or whatever. I don't know, she was in the locker room when I came back and, you know, because I'm running the show. I mean, I'm hands-on with reality wrestling. It's not anyone running reality wrestling above me. All the responsibility go to me, and when she did that, I just let her know. I'm like, this is what happens when you think you're over. Yeah, that's what she said. This is what happens. This is what happens when you think you're bigger than everybody else on the card.

1:07:30This is what happens when you make that ride from Houston to Dayton. You're thinking about the wrong things. You know what I mean? So I just wanted to check her and just let her know that stuff like that is not accepted. And stuff like that can get you fired. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like time. If I ask you to go out there and give me 15 minutes and you do 20, 23, you might get fired when you walk back through the curtain. Yeah. Because you messed up the show. You just messed the whole show up. Yeah. That's Doug Witter. Yeah, right. So how proud are you of her right now seeing what she's doing?

1:08:11Because I remember when she won the NXT title, man. I put your reaction on my Twitter. And the way you howled, I was like, the pride was just so evident. If people didn't know, they didn't get it. But the people that knew could tell that. That was a lot of pride. And that carried through a lot of her matches, as you were calling her matches. But to see her today, man, how does that make you feel? It's amazing. It's amazing. She picked up on all the teachings, all the knowledge. You know, everything was about making her as good as I possibly can make someone. And she took it and really made it her own.

1:08:54I remember when Becky Lynch came down and she did the program with Roxanne before Roxanne left and went to the main roster, just to watch her be able to perform at that level with someone like Becky. I was like, wow. You know, because the best wrestlers are the best listeners. You know, and when it's time for them to really get their stuff in, boom, they just go. They don't have to think about it. They don't have to ask any questions or anything like that. And she got to that level. And I remember right before she, because I used to always, you know, critique her after every match. She would always still come up to me and go, well, God, I do.

1:09:28And if it was something, I would give it to her. The final time she came to me and she goes, book, what did you see tonight? And I go, I don't think I could critique you anymore. I really don't. I think she's at that point where she could teach herself. She understands making her mistakes. I remember being at that point where I go, oh, man, okay, I'm going to do it this way as opposed to doing it that way. because I understood the lingo of going out there and trying to walk that tightrope and make the fans feel a certain way. So, man, she's so incredible as a performer. Yeah. Yeah, man. Shout out to Roxanne.

1:10:07Shout out to Wyatt. Wyatt, her dog Wyatt. Her dog Wyatt. Shout out to Wyatt. Who's been on the pod twice. Yeah, he's a good boy. He's a great boy. Now, I will say, though, Roxanne got to be part Samoan, all right? because Liv Morganhead is still healing after that class, bro. Roxanne is fun, but Liv Morganhead is still healing, bro. That sounded like a melon dropping out of the eye window when they knocked it. Liv did have a little hematoma there, boy. We just said she was thinking about a lot. That's all. now book you uh you brought up the name of a man that people know either as Sid or Psycho Sid or Sid Justice or Sid Vicious or if you go further back Lord Humongous a lot of people don't know about softball enthusiast softball enthusiast Sid Vicious and I've always heard that story that he's the one who like made the call to help you you you and your brother get into WCW so let's talk about your time there man the world championship wrestling was just you know they They were battling back and forth with WWE.

1:11:14You know, they definitely had their own stars that were made there. Talk to us about, you know, you're making your way. You said your first match was a pay-per-view, man. That's crazy. What are your memories about, you know, not the later times, but the early days of you and your brother making it to WCW? No, I remember Sid pretty much giving my brother and I a springboard right off the bat. But, you know, we came in, and I remember we signed for$75 ,000. And there were guys making$250 ,000. And they were just, you know, hadn't been there that long. And they said, we can offer you guys$75 ,000 apiece.

1:11:59And Sid said, take it. Don't worry about it. And we was like, ah, you sure said. He's like, yeah, don't worry about it. Money's going to go up. I said, all right. So we signed the contract. And lo and behold, Sid, to his word, at 75 went to like 120. Then at 120 went to like 175. You know what I mean? We was like in a little holding pattern for a minute. But it jumped relatively quick. So we was like, man, Sid, oh boy, as far as it's worse, Sid was trying to work his way into the office at that time. We were like Sid's first projects, which was really, really cool at the same time. So Sid really went to bat to do as much as he could for us.

1:12:48But we just had to do our part. And that was, you know, be two menacing black guys. The way we came into WCW wasn't the brightest light. A lot of people don't remember. My brother and I, we were actually called the chain gang. Chain gang. We were two guys like out of prison, you know. It never aired. I read that the other day when I was doing research on you, and I thought I knew a lot. I never knew they had planned on you guys coming out in shackles. HR came back and go, look, we're going to shut this shit down.

1:13:29So they changed that very quickly.

1:13:36I'm one of those guys. You know, you got to tell people, you know, 99%, you know, you keep your mouth shut. You're 100%. You speak up 100 % of the time. You know, at that time, my brother and I, we had no leverage or anything. We had to get our foot in the door before we could make any changes. And I knew that. So to be able to go out there and perform as the chain gang was my modus operandi. Go out here and perform. Whatever happens out there is going to happen. that. Lo and behold, HR came in and shut it down. I remember Ole Anderson was the booker. This goes back to, like I say, go out and perform.

1:14:16Ole Anderson say, look, after what just happened, I should just fire you guys and send you back to Texas. But you can work. That's the important thing. But the next question is what got Got my brother and I. He goes, but can you draw money? That's the bottom line right there, right? Put us in the game, coach. You know what I mean? That's how things start. You know what I mean? So we kept our mouths shut on that, you know, on that first part, you know, because it was 99%. Let's go out and perform. Let's get it done. You know, once I got my foot in the door, I always spoke up, you know, when it was time to speak up.

1:15:01I was always one of those guys that, you know, never bit my tongue or anything like that. But WCW was a great time in my wrestling career. It definitely put me in a position to, you know, to shine, you know, as a tag team wrestler. Being with my brother and sister Sherry, Martell was the greatest run you could ever imagine, you know, for a young kid like myself. I was, man, I was having such a great time, you know. and then to be able to go into singles wrestling, you know, and create something totally different from that perspective. But, you know, the times with my brother and I and Sherry, man, it was literally like some of the best times of my career going around the world, you know, Japan, you know, Korea, you know, all over the United States, you know, causing, damn near causing riots in the South, you know, because of a white woman with, you know, two black guys.

1:15:59and it was crazy. It was nuts. It was the biggest thing you ever could imagine being a part of at that time. It really was. It really was. I think Mark Henry was the first one we asked this question, but you're the first person where I want to get three different perspectives from.

1:16:22The question that we asked Mark was, after all that time, what was it like the first time laying his head on the pillow as champion of the world but first you know I want to three-parter with you because I want to ask you what was it like becoming tag team champions with your brother the first time in the Global Wrestling Federation because really that was the real first time that time was so real you know because my sisters and brothers were there in the audience. My aunt was there in the audience, and my aunt literally looked just like my mom, spitting at me. They looked like twins. And she was crying the whole time.

1:17:11My brother and I, we won the tag team championships, man. It was freaking awesome. And WCW, it was great, too, just because it let us know we were there. We had a ride. We're here. Because one thing about the company, the company got to be able to trust you. They got to be able to really trust you in order to put you in that position. And then to be able to put in that position again, you got to be able to deliver. And my brother and I, we delivered. So every time we lost him, we won him right back. We lost him, we won him back. It was a great run, man. Such a great run, working with my brother.

1:17:50And then, like I say, when we added Sherry to the mix, man everything was like it was like pouring gasoline on on everything but now i mean winning the championships for that first time it let us it just let me know we had arrived as as as performers not any but but i wasn't satisfied um by any means i really wasn't i wasn't satisfied you know winning the tag team championship even though i never imagined a dreamt winning the heavyweight championship but i just wasn't satisfied and then i you know and in my research of you. I saw in an interview you said that you didn't really have too much time.

1:18:29You didn't celebrate winning Big Goldie until that Monday when you saw everybody being excited for you. You and Mark Henry have similar... Same belt too. That's crazy. You and Mark Henry have similar stories where Mark told us he sat in a chair in a hotel and he sat on the bed and kept looking at it, you know, just looking at the title. And, you know, you spoke of a similar story. Take us through that first night as a world heavyweight champion for WCW. Well, actually, man, it was a surreal moment for me because I just never – even the night it happened, I didn't think it was going to happen because of all the chaos and whatnot.

1:19:17I had worked earlier that night as well. When it happened, you know, I just, I don't know. I was just in the moment. The ball, it was giving me the ball. I swear to God. I didn't think anything other than that, other than, man, what's this match going to look like? Because Jeff and I had no time to prepare. We even talked about it. What are we going to do, you know? So I just, you know, just focused my energy to go out there and perform. Whatever we was going to do, we was going to do it. Jeff Jarrett was such a professional, such a pro. I mean, he really just walked me through that thing. Just follow me, brother.

1:20:01It was one of those type of things. I just followed Jeff all the way to the finish. I just followed Jeff. And bang, one, two, three. I remember the fans going crazy. I remember I rolled out of the ring, and they told me, get back in the ring, get back in the ring. Not a moment. I remember that like crazy, you know what I mean? I went up and I'm celebrating. You know, it was really, really awesome. I remember that like it was yesterday. I remember getting to the hotel. I sat on the edge of the bed, you know, and I had the title there, you know, and I was like, wow, you know, and I ended up going to sleep.

1:20:38I didn't go out. I didn't go party. I didn't go do anything. Just because I was wondering if the fans really were going to accept me as the world heavyweight champion, you know. being the next guy after Ron Simmons, the second black guy to win the title. Were they going to accept me more than anything? So it's just one of those things that I just wondered. And then there again come Monday, realize how many people had celebrated, how many people were so happy on the sides. Like, man, he really did deserve it. But that's the part. It's like Trick Williams right now. that's when the work really really starts that's when the pressure is really really on now you really got to go out and deliver okay now everything that happens is going to fall on you every mistake that falls that happens is going to fall on you you got to go out there and be the best in the world so for me that's the part I was ready for that's what I was looking forward to more than anything proving how good I was in the ring and then once the merger happened And, you know, we know they kind of put you through the ringer a little bit once you are a WWE superstar in the beginning stages.

1:21:58And then for you to win Big Goldie over there, for the same thing, for you to be able to, on both majors, be like, no, he's somebody that can carry us for a little bit. What does that tell you? You know, I really want to clear something up, man. I've been working for WWE now for, what, 25 years pretty much. Oh, my God. You know, all right. Time is going real fast. No, seriously. other than the two years at TNA this company they done nothing but right by me the whole time man when I came in I had a hefty contract I mean I'm serious man I mean I'm serious I wasn't like hey I hear stories these guys had to go to get looked at and try and go to the wrestling I never had to do any of that stuff man I skipped past all of that.

1:23:12People even talk about the WrestleMania 19 with Triple H. I know we got to talk about that. Yeah, because that's a sensitive subject for a lot of wrestlers. It is. It's a sensitive subject for a lot of people, but people don't realize I won before I get to that WrestleMania 19, just like Moche would just say, talking about. A lot of people don't really remember or think about it, but I won number five and six in the WWE. So I won world titles. I won tag team. I won intercom. I won all of that. You're the eighth Grand Slam champion in WWE history. Like, come on, man. No, no, seriously. But what was my point?

1:24:00What was I talking about? What was I talking about? I lost my track. About how the company's always done right by you. The companies always done it in WrestleMania 19 with Triple H. Always, always wished to be in the main event at WrestleMania. Always. I was like, man, one of these days I'm going to be in the main event at WrestleMania. And then I find myself in the main event against Triple H at WrestleMania. And the story was a blueprint for me to win. Yeah. So many people, even office guys after that match, say, Book, you should have won, man. Yeah. You should have won. You know, man, I appreciate it.

1:24:44I appreciate it. But, you know, I have always looked at this business like acting. And I never looked at it any other way. Should I have won, perhaps? You know what I mean? But it just wasn't my time. That's the way I looked at it. But I say this all the time, guys, and I'm real about it. I'm real, 100%. After getting that check, they could have booked the same match next year. Yeah. Because that check.

1:25:24I'm for you. I'm very here. That check. Yeah. is what paid for this property that I'm living on right now. I'm serious. One check. One check. They could have booked it the next year. The same match. Right. But winning, for me, it's never been my priority. Losing has never been a priority. The way I lose is one thing. People don't remember the way I lost in that match a lot of times. People don't even remember that match and how much I really put into that match either, man. I did everything in that match. I pulled out all the stops in that match at WrestleMania. But, you know, making that transition, you know, over to, you know, WWE when everything closed down, you know, there again, that was a moment I was looking forward to as well.

1:26:19I knew nothing lasts forever. Yeah. WCW was a hell of a ride. I feel like I got as much out of it as I possibly could. They put me on a trajectory to where everything was going to be okay for me because when the show shut down, I was the United States champion and the heavyweight champion. I was champ champ. I mean, how poetic is that? I mean, the guy that started at the bottom of the company shut the company down with both of the championships. I couldn't write that story. I really couldn't. Book, talk to us about that. Now, you had your time at WCW, of course, where you become a legend. Like, your battles over the World Television Championship, you know, are matches that are still talked about.

1:27:04You know, the matches with, of course, you know, people feel a certain way, and rightfully so, about Chris Benoit, so sometimes he doesn't get mentioned. But I watched all seven of those matches in real time, and I saw how you were elevated from this isn't just a tag team wrestler. No. This dude is going to be the man. And to watch all that happen for you was a sense of joy and pride for everyone that looked like me. You know what I mean? To look like you to see Booker T doing his thing. Now we come to the end of WCW. Like you said, you are the champ champ. What was that discussion like when you found out that night that you were going to be in the great history of NWA, WCW world champions, that you were going to be the last one?

1:27:49Who told you that? Last of the week. yeah right who told you that and what was what was going through your mind your body and your soul when you knew that you were going to close out this great company as the man it might have been shane mcmahon who told me uh that i was winning i was going over and i knew i already had one belt so that meant that i was going to close the company it was crazy man uh never in a million years did i see myself in that position but there again I always wanted to be the best wrestler in the locker room I always thought I was the best guy in the locker room you know and I know that's debatable I know guys gonna say he wasn't that good you know what I mean but I pushed myself to be the best guy the best candidate you know for the position a lot of guys thought they were stars you know and you know I thought I was a star but I thought I was I thought, you know, no matter where I went, I was going to work no matter what.

1:28:56You know, so when WCW closed down, it was a bittersweet moment because a lot of guys were, you know, a lot of tears. I knew it was the end of an era for me. I knew I was going to have to make a huge decision. But, you know, for me, you know, like when the guy goes, he said, what are you going to do? You know, what are you going to do, man? It's the final night. You're on WCW. I go, I'm going to WWE, bro. That's what I'm going to do. It's time to move on. And for me, I so wanted to test myself against all of the WWE guys. I wanted to test myself against all those guys. I really wanted to see how good I really was.

1:29:44And starting in WWE, I was a wrestler. I was a wrestler in WCW. And when I came to WWE, I had to learn how to be an entertainer and a performer very, very quickly. And they put me in scenario immediately when I got there. Even the stuff with Stone Cold, even the stuff with Gold Dust, you know, me and Tess. No matter what, it was so many, they put me through so many obstacles to test my range to see how good I really was. and I was performing for one person pretty much, and that one person was Vince McMahon. Yeah. Because Vince was the guy, if you got over with Vince, you didn't have to worry about anything.

1:30:31And for me, every time I would go out and come back through that curtain, look over, and he goes, we got him, we got him again. And then the times that I didn't get him, I'd look over there, and he'd be looking down, not even giving me any looks. Hey, Vince. You know what I mean? He'd look up, and I'd go, hey, man, we'll get him next week. All right? But I never took it home with me or anything like that. But, no, I loved being able to go out and learn that side of the business. Because if I took it serious, I don't think I would be where I'm at right now. If I didn't understand what wrestling really, really was, I wouldn't be able to teach it the way I do.

1:31:11Because, like I said, I'm not the youngest guy in the world. So I got to understand what these young guys are doing. I got to be able to listen to their music. You know what I mean? I got to understand exactly what they're doing from a wrestling perspective and be able to say, hey, don't take that away, but hey, let's add this in there to level this out, to make this look a certain way, to make them feel it, opposed to just seeing it. That right there, that's something that's never going to go away just because we got a chance to see one of the greatest WrestleMania matches this year with Punk and Roman.

1:31:48Punk ain't the youngest guy in the world, but neither is Roman. Those guys went out there and performed at such a high level. It had such great meaning to it, such as Michaels and Taker and 25. That will never, ever go away in professional wrestling. So to be able to teach that and understand it is, man, I'm in a great place. I really am. Like we said earlier, Shay, you know, as WCW closed out, 21 titles within the organization, the most decorated performer in the history of world championship wrestling. And we're talking about Ric Flair. We're talking Sting. You know, we're talking Luger. We're talking Steiner Brothers.

1:32:32We're talking Kevin Nash, Scott Hall. You know what? You know what? You know, that's why I'm hot.

1:32:41You guys mentioned Mark Henry. Right. Yeah. Mark Henry was talking on his busted open. I think it was going to, I don't know, maybe it was during the interview. And they were talking about the, they were ranking the black wrestlers. I think Mark Henry had me like at number six or something like that. And I'm like this, how can I not be the greatest black wrestler that ever lived? It's not even a question. You know, it's not even a question. And I appreciate what Bobo Brazil and those guys. Yeah, for sure. Bearcat Wright and all those guys did for us. You know what I mean? But as far as the greatest, you know.

1:33:23Look at the gold. All you got to do is I ain't got the rings on right now, but I got two of them. Two of them. Yeah. You just got to set up a photo shoot with all your replicas. Right. Let them know. Bro, come to my school. I got all of them. That's a good question. So you do book. Do you have the majority of the titles that you've won? I just got replicas, man. That kind of stuff really didn't mean a whole lot to me. You know what? It still doesn't. The gold belt didn't mean as much as the title. Yeah. Got you. The title, world heavyweight champion, that meant a whole lot to me. That meant a lot to me.

1:34:07I remember one time when I first became the world heavyweight champion, and I rode up to the building.

1:34:19I've never told this story live the first time. We love baseball. NCW exclusive. I rode up to the building, and Marcus Bagwell and Lex Luger is in the car in front of me. They've never heard this story before. They go to the security, and the security tells them, Okay, take a left, go right down. They went right behind the building. They parked. And then I rolled up to the security, and I say, you know, Booker T, and he goes, oh, go park over here in the parking deck. And I went, and I didn't say anything. I just went and parked in the parking deck. I parked my car. And when I got out of the car, I was walking to the building.

1:34:59I had the belt over my bag, rolling it in. And I was steaming, steaming. If it was cold, you probably could see the steam coming out of my head. And Norman Smiley, who I work with in WWE, I said, Norman, I need you to walk with me. I need you to see something.

1:35:21He goes, okay, book. And I walk in the building and I go, what if it's security yet? Who's running security? I need to know who's running security. and one of the security guys came up and I go, look, man, I just rolled up and I gave him that whole story there. I say, I don't care about me. Booker, he might have to park in the parking garage, but the world heavyweight champion, not me, the world heavyweight champion, he parks over here. So I need to know, bro, they started jumping around here. Yeah, man. They came to me later on that day and they go, Booker, we'll get your own dressing room. We got your own dressing room for you.

1:36:04everything's cool you know I'm like look man I don't need my own dressing room I need my dressing room I said do me a favor give me a 50 inch TV put it on the truck make it everywhere you know all the buildings where we go so I can play my Madden okay do that for me they did it they put that 50 inch TV in they carried it around in every building we play Madden at the building every week that's what I'm talking about Hey, Bookie, you mentioned his name, and I wanted to bring this up to you. Buff Bagwell. You guys had the first, I guess, WCW match in WWE after the takeover. And a lot of people say a lot of things about that match, but I watched that match three hours ago.

1:36:50And it's still the same way I feel the first time I got to see it. People dog that match for some reason. That was a good match. It was just that the fans, and this is just how I viewed it, and you, of course, can share what you think. It just seemed like the fans, they were still on that WWE, WCW war thing, and they didn't want to give you and Buff a chance. You know, they changed all the logos. They had the WCW logo. They had Arne Anderson on commentary. You guys put, like I said, I just watched it. That was a good match. And then next thing you know, I guess Vince sent out Steve and Kurt to come and put an end to it.

1:37:27Can we just get your thoughts and your memories on that match with Buff Bagwell? I mean, you know, that match is really, really touchy for me just because it's one of those locker room story type things, you know. And certain things in the locker room I try to keep in the locker room, but that was one of those things where it wasn't working out properly. It didn't go as well as we wanted it to go. Oh, okay. The angle was something that was set up before as far as them coming, you know, kickers out of there. All of that stuff was the angle. But it was just a really, really bad time, you know. I mean, Buff was going through a lot at that time.

1:38:15And there again, I try not to speak on other people's stories and stuff like that, you know, what they were going through. But I knew at that time, on that night, it was going to be rough. and just because Buff and I had worked previously before that, and it's like, maybe we shouldn't have this match here tonight. That was my thought process, and I actually remember going to John Laronitis. So the fix was in. The fix was in from the beginning, but I remember going to John Laronitis and I picked over. John, maybe we shouldn't have this match tonight. And John goes, book, there's nothing I can do.

1:38:54Oh, man. So when he said that, I go, okay, all right, the fix is in. Let me go out here and get this done. But one thing about it, I never feared. I was never in jeopardy, you know, losing my job or anything like that. I never thought once that I was, you know, going to lose my job. I remember when I first got there and Linda McMahon, her first words to me was, we finally got you. Oh, yeah, that makes you feel good. So I knew I was in as far as that company goes. I so wish Buff Bagwell could have had a career in WWE, but you've heard the stories that kind of started rocky with Shane Helms down in the PC where they were working at.

1:39:41You've heard the story about his mom. I don't know how true that is or not. But I just wished Bagwell could have had a career because Bagwell and I, man, we had so many matches. And I remember that kid, man. You know, Bagwell has his problems. But I remember that kid that had, you know, the handsome stranger is what they called him in the Global Wrestling Federation. You know, and I watched him grow up in the business. You know, so to see, you know, how things turned out, I just wish it could have, you know, been different. Well, just from a fan, I just say, like I said, I watched the match again.

1:40:17And, man, I have no problem with the match. Just from a fan point of view. I know I was working hard. I was working hard in that match. You know what I mean? I was working real hard. Yeah, seriously. You talked about, you know, we brought up WrestleMania 19. And, you know, I've heard you speak about the business a lot. And you talk about, you know, what people feel. What people feel is what's most important. And in that match, you might have not left with the title, but you left with people's hearts. because people to this day are still hurt by that. We call that around here a moment where wrestling might have broken people's hearts.

1:41:00That's one of those moments. We've had people mention that. Yeah. So as you watched growing up, you said you always kept an eye. Is there a moment you can remember as a fan where wrestling broke your heart?

1:41:22Nah. I've never had one moment like that, man. Not one. Man. I've never had one moment like that. I've never felt the agony of defeat from professional wrestling. Not once. Not one time. You know, a lot of people didn't realize the correlation of WrestleMania 19. No one at that point in time knew my story. No one knew about my prison record and all of that stuff, really, you know, as far as in-depth on my life. And, you know, they had heard me talk about it, but no one had really got in depth with it. And J.R. told me, look, people need to hear the story. You need to write a book. You really need to get this out.

1:42:21So for me, a lot of the WrestleMania story was an overlay for me to write my book to let kids out there see you can go from nothing to something. And the thing is, just think about this from there again, from a realistic perspective. that kid, that same kid who, there again, lost his dad at such a young age lost his mom at such a young age end up quitting school 11th grade, end up going to prison for aggravated robbery coming out and finding himself in the main event at WrestleMania, if that's not a win if that's not a win I don't know what is right I mean I'm being real yeah I feel you winning a match is that the most important thing can't be it can't be that's why I implore young people to stress you know I stress with young people to understand again at the end of the day you know the story is real but it's about taking care of my family at the end of the day I mean that's what it's all about it really is now you might not have a moment where wrestling broke your heart but I know a time where wrestling made you mad what is that so you know people who know me know that I'm sponsored by Monster matter of fact Shane sitting right here is brought to you by Monster Mark Henry another story from my brother Mark told us a story about some Red Bulls that went missing what's going on What happened with your two Red Bulls went missing, man?

1:44:09That was my ritual, man. That was just my ritual. Most of the time, my Red Bull thing, I would do, it was crazy. I would go off sometimes just to at least release the stress. And it was part of a stress-releasing mechanism because it was like, how dumb could people be sometimes? Very dumb. I mean, really, because you've got a cooler, and there's nothing but waters in there, and you've got a bag with two Red Bulls in there stuffed in there. Somebody think, well, they bought Red Bull for us. Who could think that? And when that would happen, man, it would make me so mad. I've literally gone off the edge and wanted to fight because of the Red Bull.

1:44:59And it was just the principle of it more than anything. And I remember one time my Red Bull came up missing, you know, and they had the cooler in the middle of the hallway. And my Red Bull came up missing. I picked the cooler up with all the drinks in it and all the ice and all the water, and I just dumped it right in the middle. You know, and they had to clean all of that stuff. And it was so bad. It was so bad at me. and no one but no one would go and talk to me and they told Kurt Angle, hey Kurt can you go talk to Book and Kurt Angle gave hey Book, hey man and I looked at Kurt and I go, hey bro now is not the time and he goes, okay man

1:45:50he walked right out I swear bro when I was at that That Red Bull moment, I ain't gonna fuck. Hey, who you was? Something might pop off, bro. You know what I mean? Don't let me gold medal at all. You might want to back up. I'm serious, bro. Now it's not the time. Yeah, man. I'm going off. You know, that was my ritual, man. It was Red Bull. You know, jump rope, get in the zone. And really, really get ready to go out and perform at a high level. And it was crucial that I had those certain rituals every time. It was like that every time for me. And you going before you get to the arena to buy them.

1:46:36And so, you know, like you got out the car, went to the restaurant, a whole nine. It's in a bag. It's in a bag. It's in a bag. Yeah, see, that's the thing that got me right, because if it's just sitting there in the ice, you think, all right, this is fair game. I remember one though, I almost got in trouble one time because I walked in the locker room and this guy was talking to Sabu and he was drinking a Red Bull. And the cooler was right next to him. And I look at him and I go, man, where'd you get that Red Bull for? Oh. And he goes, I got another cooler. I said, what makes you think you can get a Red Bull?

1:47:15He wasn't one of the boys. He was just visiting with Sabu, one of his buddies. I said, man, why are you in here? And I bang, I slapped a red bull out of his head to the floor. I said, why are you in the locker room, man? What are you doing in here anyway? And I said, man, get out of the locker room. Just get out. And so I escort him out of the locker room. I said, no, no, no. Get out of the building. I walked him all the way. Oh, wow. I walked him all the way to the back of the building. They kicked him out of the back of the building, locked the door. And one of the guys finally had told me he was an MMA guy.

1:47:48He probably could have kicked him. Oh, wow. I wonder who that was. Right. MMA guy. Somewhere he's like. After that, I was so scared, man. Turns out it was BJ Penn. Right. I know somebody's at the crib. Man, I swear, Booker T kicked me out the building one time. After this comes out later today, tomorrow, this is going to make the round. Whoever it was is going to, you know. Maybe we should find out the year. Maybe we could try to figure out what is that. I'm going to ask Shane Helms. He knows exactly who he was. Oh, we're? Okay. Yeah, we got to find that out. I've been waiting since New York to ask him about these.

1:48:38Wow. So, look, I mean, look, I know where time is drawing to a close with you here, and there's still, we could do two more hours. Yeah, like, we get to going. We get to going. So, first of all, I have to ask, can we get, at some point in the near future, or can we get another day with you because there's still so much. Yeah, man, most definitely. One thing I do want to ask before we go, man, there's so much, but I'll leave it at this. We have our favorite question. We'll get to that at the end. Yeah, of course. But real quick, you know, you were talking about you announcing and you were like you weren't good at it.

1:49:09And I completely disagree because I love listening to Booker T on commentary. I've always found you funny. I've always found you entertaining. And the thing is you don't sound like everybody else. I can always know, even if my eyes are closed, my ears are open. Obviously, I know Booker's voice. He don't sound like everybody else. And that, as Diamond Dallas Page used to say, is a good thing. You, as an announcer, you've done so much to hype up and get over so many of these young wrestlers. In particular, there's two I want to talk to you about that are very special to us here at No Contest Wrestling.

1:49:44uh stephanie vaker with with you know the booker t ad libs that that came and you might not know this book but stephanie came onto our pod early on in our podcast history that move still didn't have a name a public name so i had written down about 10 different names that i was willing to like try to sell her on is like and i was like you know this move that gets booker t hype that gets everybody else like i'm like does it have a name and if it doesn't can we name it and she said you know matt bloom calls it the devil's kiss i just so happened to have kiss of the diablo on the paper so i was like all right that's close enough i'm like do you like that and she's like yeah i was like so we kind of we took it upon ourselves to coin it this is the first time that anyone ever heard that that move was called the devil's kiss now the move it's in itself is great let's just be honest 10 out of 10 10 11 out of 10 but your reaction to the move book I won't say it's what got it over because obviously what got it over is what got it over.

1:50:45Some might say the icing on the cake. Yeah, but your reaction is what got everybody into it. When did you start making like the uh, uh, uh and then had anyone ever talked to you about it? And also just as a quick one of that, everyone's always like, Booker T got to sleep on the couch. I know the queen is okay with it because she understands the business. He and his mode. The thing is, it's not sexual at all. It's like I really picked up on like when the Spinner Rooney got over. It wouldn't have gotten over if it didn't have a soundtrack. You know, Spinner Rooney, Spinner Rooney, Spinner Rooney.

1:51:26I mean, I was like, man, I mean, that made the Spinner Rooney what it was, you know, so I always remembered that. And I said, man, I got to be the soundtrack, you know, for a lot of these moves. because just think about it, if it was radio, you're just listening to it. Yeah, right. If you can't see it, you're not going to really, really understand it. But if I give it a soundtrack, even listening to it, you can actually get along with it and vibe with it. And then once you start getting the fans involved, that's when you really got something. That's funny. Just think about it. The business was at its height.

1:52:06it may not be as money-wise, but as far as fans' participation goes, when the fans was bringing the signs out and, you know, oh, you didn't know, you know what I mean? That kind of stuff. That's when the crowd and the business was really booming, you know? So for me, I'm just trying to add soundtracks, you know, behind this stuff, you know, like, you know, geeky, geeky, geeky. It means nothing, but it means everything. It means everything. At the same time, So for me, I know what my job is. And I wouldn't necessarily say I wasn't that good at it, but I didn't get a chance to be myself when I was on Raw and SmackDown.

1:52:47I was filtered. They wanted me to act like a real commentator, and I'm not like a real commentator. Six-time world champion. I'm just going to go out and analyze this thing. If I like you, I'm not a heel. I'm not a baby face or anything like that. Add some color. I'm just going to go out and add color. You know, and I love it, man. Being a part of NXT, that job literally was supposed to be for three months. Oh, man. I was just filling in. Book, we need you to fill in for three months. And I was like, all right, three months, man. I'm like, no way y 'all going to be able to take this job away from me.

1:53:22It's the best job in the world. It's like too easy. So I was like, I really put in. But I must give props to my man Vic Joseph because. Playing the straight guy. No, no. Vic makes it so easy for me. Vic, he's literally like the quarterback to that thing. He'll throw me the play. You know, and Vic and I, we both know the plays. I know exactly where, you know, he want to go when he want me to go there. When I need to lay out, I need to lay out, you know, when something needs to, you know, get talked about, you know, from a business perspective, bang, Vic is going to be on point, you know, He just made that job so easy for me.

1:54:07So I give Big Joseph big props for putting me in the right position to succeed in NXT the way I have over four years. That job has lasted three months. Three months to four years. It's turned into four years. And then, Book, another person who you've helped get over tremendously, we believe, is Trick Williams. Your ad-libs there were Trick. how did that come about? Because I don't care what anyone that says that helped. We love Trick. He's another friend here. He's been on this pod, I think, three or four times. But having you, oh yeah, man. That just, that made me like, I couldn't wait for Trick to come out because I liked Trick from the start.

1:54:49I remember telling Trick, like, even when he was with Mello, I said, Mello's dope. I'm like, but that dude behind Mello, I said, if he can do anything, that dude's going to be a star. I just had a feeling. And now I see it now and I feel like, man, I feel like great. And also Last Legend. Oh, you bulk up. But so how did that ad-lib on Trick's theme come through? Trick is, you know, he's been under the learning tree since my beginning. When he first started breaking out, Trick would come and he would talk to me. He would come in school session. We'd work on match prep. Everything, man. I just see so much of him.

1:55:32As far as the ad-libs go, there again, I'm just having fun out there. And that was one of the times Vic tried to shut me down. Trick was coming out of his music, I started playing it, I just started vibing, and then I just went off, and I just started doing it. You know, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, man.

1:55:58I like it. By the end of it, that trick had got in the ring. And then he did his stuff. And Vicks looks at me and he goes, do that every week.

1:56:11Yeah, it's like, I miss you. At one point, I was like, man, they should record books at Booker's AdLibs and put it on Trix's actual theme. Yeah, because I do it during the game. I play the game. that. You know what, if they were to ask me to do it, I definitely would do it. But I really, there again, Trick's got, he's in that position now where he's got to fly. He's got to really, really and there again, I hope you listen to this, you know what I mean? Because I shoot straight. This is the most pivotal time for a young wrestler like Trick Williams. He cannot get complacent. He cannot start, you know, believing the hype.

1:56:51This is the time where he's got to do more work than he ever imagined to put himself into position to be that guy. That guy, you know, such as a Roman Reigns, a guy that over these last 10 years, nobody has had a bad match with Roman Reigns because Roman is a hell of a general. He's going to go out there and he's going to take you through that match and he's going to take you to something so compelling at the end of the night. No matter how many people did not like Roman Reigns, they're going to be saying, damn, he's good. That's where I need someone like Trick to really be honestly thinking about focusing on being that guy, that guy that every guy in the locker room looks at him a certain way, and they know it when he walks in the room.

1:57:33You happy with his progress right now? I am. I'm happy with it. But there again, I'm a coach. I see everything. Nothing gets over my head. And it's always the small things with me. that make the fans feel a certain way, which those are the things that, you know, Trick definitely cannot get away from, you know, if you want to make a splash on the main roster for a meaningful amount of time. Yeah, but we're definitely in this corner. Yeah, that's our boy. Trick Willie fans here. Now, Book, this has been amazing. But now it's time for our number one question, and then we're going to let you go about your day, brother.

1:58:17Until we see you again. Yeah, right, until we get to part two. Now, Booker T, you are in a bar. Now, you brought a bar fight up earlier in the episode. You talk about a dude doing a 450 on the bar, but we'll get to that in a minute. So you're in a bar. There's 50 dudes in this bar, and they hate him on King Booker. They can't dig what you laying down. So I need you to pick a team of you and four other superstars. Now, they can be of any era. They can be your boys. They can whatever. It's your choice. Four other superstars to make sure King Booker is getting to the crib. Man, let me see. Man, that's a tough one right there.

1:59:07But I definitely would have to put my brother in there. 100%. We knew this was going to be the first pick. Yeah, I mean, no, just because, you know, my brother always been, you know, straight up. Hey, brother, who's going to have you back more? He's always looking for a fight.

1:59:28Somebody get knocked out OG style.

1:59:34I'm thinking about guys, you know, like Haku. He definitely would be. Bro, this is his question. Will you get him the most? Yeah, like we almost had to put him aside. I'd be like, anybody but Haku, because it's everybody's Manchester City. Everybody's been Haku. But you want to get home. No, he was the real deal. Well, can I ask you, I want to interrupt. Have you actually seen Haku in action, or did you just hear the stories that were announced? I've been in the ring. You can tell if someone can handle themselves when you get in the ring with them. I've been in the ring with a lot of guys, and you can tell if they've been in a fight before.

2:00:08And Haku wasn't one of them. Haku was the guy that I did not want to be in the ring with. Literally. And I tried my best not to be in the ring with him and made sure my brother was in the ring with him and I would be in the ring with Barbarian when we did tag matches just because he hit me so hard one time and it felt like it went through my body to the other side. And I'm not exaggerating. Me personally, I tell guys, you don't hold back. You hit guys. You whack them. And he whacked me. And it wasn't anything out of the ordinary, but it's just the force behind it, which is amazing. And I was like, wow, what the hell is that?

2:00:48I don't want any more of that. Wow. Okay. Like I said, you can tell. He's the nicest guy. And we know, and look, we didn't bring it up, but we know from all the stories we heard, this is one of the legit tough guys right here that we're talking to. So for you to say that. No, I mean, no, I'm the real deal, bro. I mean, I'm serious. I mean, people can say what they want to say, but I'm the real deal. That's what we hear. it off. That's what everybody did. We didn't bring it up. We heard it. Speaking of Mark Henry, we sat in a hotel lobby a few months ago before going up to Stanford, and he told us one of the more famous stories, and we'll say it for another day.

2:01:30Ain't no bully or nothing like that, but I loved fighting, man, when I was a kid. I got in so many fights, man. It was like second nature for me fighting, but another fighter a lot of people may not know that don't give a lot of credit to that can handle himself was Rick Rude. Oh, yeah, we've heard those stories, yeah. Man, he was the real deal as far as a guy that was, that did not mind throwing hands, you know, and I've seen Rick Rude in action before, and, you know, he was a really tough guy, too, strong, too. He used to do arm wrestling, and he was one of the only guys that, you know, I can see too as far as arm wrestling goes but that's another story Stevie Ray, Haku, Rick Rude more the last one would probably be let me see man oh man I don't know man this last one's pretty hard yeah

2:02:32Oh man, Ron Simmons. Yeah. There's someone who doesn't get named enough, but I'm telling you from what we've heard. I don't know what made me not think about Ron, you know, earlier, but now, man, Ron, this is a dude that has got like the ultimate respect in this business. Booker, I'm sorry, what's he have? The ultimate respect. Respect. Yeah, respect. Respect. No, no, no, he does, man. I mean, he's one of the guys, he was my mentor, man. He was the guy that was coaching me. He was the guy that was mentoring me and talking to me and telling me the what not to do, the pitfalls not to fall into. Ron was such an educator for me in this business, and I watch him walk in a certain way, and I wanted to be so respected like Ron Simmons.

2:03:26I guess that's the way I walked, the way I walked, perhaps through this business, seriously. I always talk about none of my peers throughout my whole wrestling career never saw me in a pair of jeans. Oh, really? No. Yeah, because you were always dressed, man. I was always suited. You were always looking fly when you were on TV. Always suited. The guys never saw me throughout my whole wrestling career. They never saw me in a pair of jeans. Never. Wow. So we got Booker T. Yeah. We got Stevie Ray. We got Haku. We got Rick Rude and Ron Simmons. The only problem here, both, that I see is that you guys are going to jail on some manslaughter charges.

2:04:08Somebody's not living through this night, man, unfortunately. Somebody's going to die in this one. That's old school rough, right? That's a real group of guys right there. All those guys literally can handle themselves. I mean, it's a lot of guys in the wrestling business that pretend the business, you know, like I go to my wrestling school and I ask them, have you ever been in a fight before? They go, no. You need to go over here. Get on that side. Yeah, I've really heard pro wrestlers tell me like, oh, I've never been in a real fight. I'm like, oh, man. Hey, book, I'll share with you real quick this Ron Simmons story.

2:04:42It's early 1990s. I'm from Altoona, Pennsylvania. We're at the Jaffa Mosque. We don't get TV tapings in Altoona. It's like a weird thing, but we got one. right so WCW Saturday night I position myself right in front of the the stage where they're doing the interviews right I'm one of the few black kids right there so I knew that I would stand out out comes Teddy Long out comes Butch Reed out comes Ron Simmons doom and I'm sitting there I got a I just remember this I got a fresh Georgetown Hoya sweatshirt on that I just got and I'm standing on top of my chair I know they're going to see me everyone's booing and da da da And Ron Simmons in the middle of the interview turns around.

2:05:23And I found this on YouTube. I will show this to you. Okay. He turns around. And of all people, he looks me right in the face. And he goes, shut up. And I went, ooh. Ooh. And I was like, I'm really black. I can't hear you. He looked right at me. And just like Deebo, he said, shut up. And I shut up. You know what? I'm going to be quiet right now. And I sat right back down. I was afraid of those guys, too, bro. I'm going to tell you. Hey, blind. I was kidding. I did not want no part stars. Man, and I'll show you. At some point, I'll show you the video. You can see him turn around and be like, and that was me.

2:05:57Shut up. Shut up. Let me shut the hell up, man. And guess what? I was quiet. Yeah, right. You and I, man, John. Okay.

2:06:09Book, man. This is awesome, man. This has been a great one, man. Yeah, man. You were on our original list. started this pod back in September of 24, dog. Yeah, I know. And you were definitely on the original list. You were someone who I loved for years and years, same with Shea. So when he texted me last night, because he's been saying to me for weeks now, we get Booker. And I'm like, nephew, naysayer, let's get Booker. What are we doing? And he texted me late last night. He goes, we got Booker T. Are you okay with that? I said, am I okay? Yeah, bro, just be prepared, all right? Whatever you're doing.

2:06:44man. I'm available when I'm available dog. That's my motto. Man, this is great man. Yeah man, I've been talking to this dude for a while man and he keeps trying to get me down to Houston man he keeps trying to beat me up. Yeah, I gotta get you down here man. Like I said, we got summer coming up. We got August coming up. We gonna check back with you through what your schedule looks like. I'd love to come check out Reality Wrestling. We got a lot of stuff going on. We just made an announcement today that we're working with a new partner to get our stuff out there, you know, for his reaction videos, what not.

2:07:11and it's growing, man. It's growing like crazy. It's going to be our best year. It's going to be our best year. Got some great talent coming over there, man. Is there any way people can check y 'all out? Put a dropout for Reality of Wrestling. Reality of Wrestling slash YouTube, we drop new shows every Sunday at 6 p.m. Central Time. So if you get a chance, check out Reality of Wrestling. It's growing. If you want to be a part of Reality of Wrestling, go to the website and come check us out right now. got an access of probably 60 students that's under the banner right now. And everybody got so many kids trying to make their journey in professional wrestling.

2:07:50It could be the thing that changed your life. So go to realitywrestling.com. Definitely going to have at least three future world champions. I ain't even seen them. I know if they're learning from this man, if they're under this tree. And we've seen the results with the prodigy and with Trick Willie. Now Jey Uso is already one of my first world champions. Oh, word. Actually, Athena is my first. The forever champion. Forever champion. Exactly. You know what I mean? So, no, man. So, I got a few of them out there that's doing big things and representing reality of wrestling, man. And it ain't going to stop.

2:08:25AJ Francis, he's still your champion right now? Actually, he's going to be going for the championship this weekend, this Saturday night. Okay, bet. AJ, another one of our friends here. Man, that's my dog right there. King Booker. Man, thank you so much, bro. This has been one of our favorite ones, man. Like, for real. Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen. Yes. Booker T. Respect. Appreciate you guys, man. Appreciate you, bud. Woo! Yes, sir. Respect. You know, take my jacket off of this. Idiots, 828. You see what it is, bro. August 28th. Idiots, make sure y 'all go. Take a family. So, a family, not just yours.

2:09:06You see what it is. But, Booker T, man. Yeah, man. That was a special one. That was one of those bucket list ones. He gave us two hours of his time, which is amazing. He's got a lot going on. So we thank you, Booker. He already got him reserved for another day in the future. Part two. Yeah, we'll definitely do a little bit deeper dive. You know, we didn't really take a full dive into NXT yet. We haven't taken a full dive into some of his great moments, you know, his rivalry with The Rock. is a staple. His tag team with Goldust, he mentioned, but like, yeah, there was so, there's so, so much. What it was like to win a tag team title with Test the first time without his breath.

2:09:46Like, yeah, there's a lot we can talk about. Yeah, man. And I do want to take a further dive into the reality of wrestling. Yeah. You know, his thought process on that when he was talking about leaving something for his kids. Yeah. That's something special to him. So, you know, I want to make sure we give it as much shine as possible. But TJ. Yes, sir. This has been a long one man pause can you please tell the people where to find us listen i gotta recover from that one uh yeah but if you want to watch this interview this two it's a great interview we have with booker t all you got to do is go to youtube search the rich eyes and show youtube page just type in no contest wrestling you'll find every episode from episode one to i think this is 86 or 87 yeah man how about that and uh if you want to listen to us for your irrigate you go to wherever you listen to your wrestling pods.

2:10:33That's ESPN, Amazon, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, or on social media. You know, you'll find everything we do on Twitter. That's at There's No Contest, Instagram, No Contest Wrestling Podcast, and TikTok, No Contest Wrestling Pod for everything we do here at NCW, ESPNCW. Still sounds so good on me. Half of myself and my podcast partner. Make sure y 'all have a good day, but not too good because who the hell you think you are? Bye, Ms. Parker. Bye, Ms. Parker. You know, they put her against Lela Diggs now and it's just like, why are they putting all the sisters together? Black people, am I right?

2:11:13Man, come on.

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