Former NBA Referee Tim Donaghy

25:59Is this, you know, were those things relevant in the locker room with the officials? You know, Jimmy, more than you could ever imagine. I know you had a good personality back in the day. You were one of those guys that always had the smile, was likable. But, you know, there were people that, you know, like Rashid, that, you know, referees couldn't stand. We used to bet, you know,$20 or$50 in a locker room to see who would give him the first technical foul. So there are always situations where somebody would say, you know, I'm going to help this guy. The last time I had him, I had a couple fouls on him.

26:28I shouldn't have after looking at the tape. So I got to, you know, take care of him tonight. Always relationships that were positive or negative between referees and coaches, referees and players and referees and even owners that spilled out onto the floor. And I used that information, unfortunately, to profit. And if a line was four or five points, these relationships would maybe make it, in my mind, eight or nine or ten points. And, you know, it was a situation where, yes, you know, no secret that, you know, Joe Crawford didn't like, you know, Cuban. He didn't like Tim Duncan. You know, there were situations with Javi and Allen Iverson.

27:06And, you know, those things, when we discussed it, you know, spilled out onto the floor. and in a situation with Iverson and Jabby, he threatened him one night. The NBA fined Iverson 20 grand. Who threatened who? What's that? Who threatened who? Allen Iverson threatened Jabby in a game. Jabby ended up giving him a technical foul, throwing him out, and then it was reported that the league fined out Iverson 20 grand. We felt that he should have been suspended. So I had him in one of the next games, and we were in the locker room, said we're going to stick it to him. Let's call palming violations on him tonight.

27:42He palms the ball every night. Nobody ever calls it. Let's just enforce it tonight. We all went out. We all took turns calling a palming violation on him. You know, when he goes to the basket, he was getting hit, and we weren't calling it. And right near the end of the game, he comes up to me, real nonchalant. He said, hey, Tim, how long is this going to go on for? And I looked him right in the eye, and I said, I don't know what you're talking about. And he laughed. He goes, you know what I'm talking about. And he just kind of shook his head and walked away from me. So, you know, it was a situation where this was discussed a lot.

28:12Personalities with referees and players conflicting had a lot to do with how the whistle was blown out on the floor. You know, that's interesting, too, because. We always talk about the purity of the game and playing, but we're officials are human like anybody else. Again, in officials, Kerry Rogers, like anybody else. We've seen that. who is it that they always talk about Chris Paul and that he doesn't want to get high yeah Scott Foster I mean that thing has been you know people can discount it but it is something there where every time Scott officials a game or reference a game something for Chris Paul doesn't go right but it's it's one of those things where as a player you really you say it but you don't want to believe it but it's something inside of you kind of know that this official just has it out for me and you control a lot of that what happens to me as a player now the difference between your case and maybe what they're talking about with with Terry Rozier and you pointed this out you didn't influence the score anything like that you didn't manipulate the game in order to have a outcome for whoever was benefiting from it.

29:25So you may have had a, what you're saying is you may have had a dislike for a player that may not have called a call or put them in foul trouble, but that didn't lead to what you were doing from the inside information perspective, correct? Right, but here's the thing with the NBA, and you know this, it's so subjective for block charges, rule enforcement, and it's really enforced based on the name sometimes on the front and the back of the jerseys. rather than how the violations take place on the floor. And you as a player and a good player, I'm sure you walked out onto the floor and the first thing you do is you look to see who's officiating.

30:06You know if you have a good relationship with that official, if you feel you get a good whistle from him or if you feel like you don't. And that happened all the time when it came to officials and players. And it's something that really has to be taken out of the game. these rules have to be enforced based on the rules that are written in the rule book, not based on the names on the front and the back of the jerseys. And we even see last night, I don't know if you saw this highlight, but the guy from Milwaukee, you know, the star player, he took six or seven steps with the ball last night. And Reggie Miller flat out said, he said, hey, listen, if I was able to do this back in the day, I would have played until I was 50.

30:50And he laughed. But, you know, it's the truth. Certain players are allowed to do certain things and certain players aren't. But in that life, though, it's like the leader of a band, a rock band, can get away with certain things that the other band members can't. I don't care if it's the CEO of the company because he's running things, making the money, can get away with certain things. Not to say it's right or wrong, not to say what they're doing is right or wrong, but, you know, the younger kid in the family who's the youngest gets away with things that the older kid or the middle child couldn't.

31:19I mean, it's across the board. So it's not just sports, but since we're talking about sports, there are likable players that also get the benefit of the doubt. And they're just like players that, you know, always get, you know, the whistle, so to speak. And it's interesting because I had my interactions with the NBA early because of my holdout. I mean, my holdout with the Mavericks was the longest ever as a rookie because the Mavericks didn't want to pay my contract. And I always thought I had, it was an issue with the NBA because it kind of put a stain on the NBA at the time, that this rookie held out, and we were going to do a collusion lawsuit against the NBA because David Stern, we had caught wind that he had told the owners, you can't pay these rookies these kind of contracts, and that's called collusion.

32:09So we finally got our deal done, but I always felt it was this cloud hovering over me because of that. And I know, and I've been in meetings since I was part of the union with David Stern. So I got a chance to see him in action, you know, behind the closed doors, behind the veil. And you've had to say something to you. And I'm sorry for interrupting you. But the guy that was in charge of the investigation told me, and I'm going to quote him. So there's no misunderstanding here. David Stern was as ruthless and as evil as any mob boss he investigated. So that just goes to tell you what type of individual he was right there.

32:46And for him to do what he did. And he was very smart. He was a genius. He was always one step ahead of everybody, and he was one step ahead of the FBI by leaking the whole story to the New York Post. Your story. And get that out in the public so that I wasn't able to, not that I wanted to, but wire up and tape somebody else because, you know, and I know you'll probably laugh when I say this thing. Dick Bavetta, for Christ's sake, he did whatever he wanted to do on the floor. I love Dickie, man. He said he was on game sixes to force game sevens. What? I mean, it was unbelievable. He seemed like somebody's grandfather.

33:23I got a chance. I was fortunate. I played with a lot of the old school officials. Okay, so I got a chance to kind of see the old school, the old guard kind of ushering the new guard and then the newer guard. And the older officials to me, I mean, whatever they were doing, they were doing. But it seemed like we were able to have, even though they may have their ways, we had conversations with these guys. They had conversations with us. Sometimes we didn't like it. Sometimes we didn't. But don't tell me Dick Bavetta. Come on, man. Oh, my God. Let me tell you something. Dick Bavetta, he did more things in games that you could, you know, if you go look at his history, I mean, he screwed Portland in that game six or game five with the Lakers.

34:05He screwed Sacramento Kings in that game five in L.A. Yeah, it always comes up. That famous game in 2002. I mean, Sacramento should have a ring on their finger And because of what he did, thinking that he was doing the right thing, forcing a game seven for the league was the best thing to do. And, you know, and even David Stern, we talked about the arrogance of the guy on national TV. I'll never forget. They said to him, what would be your ideal matchup in the NBA finals? And this guy has the balls to say the Lakers versus the Lakers and smiles. I mean, he did what he wanted to do. What was ever going to bring that global attention to the league, which was going to really bring, you know, the bottom line up.

34:45and he really didn't care how the games were officiated or how they look. But, Tim, let me ask you this. Game six and seven. But let me ask you this. Okay, say an official favors a team. Is that coming from him personally or is that coming from higher? I think what it does is this is what they used to do. Say there was a playoff game and a team was up two games to none. Right. And I write about this in my book. Famous Houston-Dallas series. I forget what the year was, but Houston had won the first two games in Dallas. Okay. So now we go to Houston and I'm on game three. Oh, wait, wait, was that Tracy McGrady?

35:23Yao Ming? No. Yes. Was that it? Yao Ming was the target. Okay. So now we're, we're in the locker room and somebody from the league office comes in and says, Hey, listen, we want you to crack down on Yao Ming, setting screens in the post, traveling in the post and no 10 things. And maybe one or two things against Dallas. And we left that meeting saying, holy shit, they want Dallas to win because Cuban was complaining. And for whatever reason, they didn't want a sweep and they didn't want Houston to win the next two games. Well, Dallas wins the next two games in Houston and ends up winning in seven games.

35:59And Van Gundy absolutely blows a gasket because he gets word about what the league came in and did starting in game three of that season series. and he ended up getting fined$100 ,000, one of the biggest fines ever. So everybody knew, you know, from that standpoint that it was going on. It was just, you hoped it wasn't going against you. MLB.tv on ESPN is your home for every out-of-market game, live or on demand. Catch your favorite teams and players, plus MLB Network and ESPN app features like Multiview, syncing your stats, key plays, bets, and fantasy, all in one place. Sign up now for MLB.tv and the ESPN app.

36:41Separate subscriptions required. Blackouts and other terms apply. Visit stream.espn.com slash MLB TV for more information. Yeah, I remember that series because I was in Houston 0405, 0506 before I went to Phoenix, but that was before they got to that. I remember watching. I was traveling doing something. I remember watching that series, and it was some things going on in that series that kind of had my head scratching a little bit. But as a player, you don't, again, this is how I think. I can't talk about every player. Always thought the purity of the game was the purity of the game. You go play it.

37:20Yes, you're going to have some conflicts with the officials and some biases, but at the end of the day, the players win the game or lose the game. And in some cases, unfortunately, that's not the actual case. You know, and the theory that the officials control the games and everybody's outside talking about it, you want to dispel that. But what you're saying is that there are times where the influence from upstairs basically trickles down on the floor and does have an effect on the game. No doubt. And in that situation, let's just say, you know, I'm a younger referee. This, I think, believe it was a second round playoff game.

38:00I want to get to the third round. Right. So I'm in a referee in a playoff series and I'm getting graded by this guy that's coming in and telling you what to do out on the floor that night. You're going to go above and beyond and do what he's telling you to do because you want a great grade. You want to go to the next round of the playoffs and you want to make another, you know,$30 ,000. So of course, you know, you're going to do what he says. And he's the one putting the grades in. So, you know, whatever he tells you to do, you're going to do it. man that is that oh man it's so much to this man and and i think about your case too tim and with and we're going to continue to touch on what's going on currently in the nba but i wanted to touch on this from a family perspective because each of these individuals that are being named right now have families whether it's a wife and most important thing that people don't realize is how how important that is you know and in my case you know i remember going in my kids bedrooms and seeing them all sleeping.

38:59And I'm thinking, man, did I really screw up these kids' lives moving forward? How am I going to dig my way out of this? And it was devastating to me. It was really, really devastating. So unfortunately, for selfish reasons, you know, I wanted to cooperate with the government to get, you know, through this the best I can and be in a situation where I can help support them again. And I'm sure that that is going to be the same situation with a lot of these guys. Well, listen, how close were you with your father? Very close. My dad was a referee at your games, a top college basketball referee, did the final four, 93, 94, 95.

39:35So, yeah. So how did – and that's why I wanted to get to it, because you were very close. He was a highly respected NCAA official. When this went down, what was that conversation like between the two of you? Awful. And, in fact, you know, I called my dad on Father's Day, wishing him a happy Father's Day. and after about a five-minute conversation he said to me what's wrong you don't sound right and I felt like you know that was my opportunity because the investigation you know was going on for about two weeks at that point and I had to tell him you know what was going on and and the college game is way different than the NBA and the fact that you know the the NCAA officials know that, you know, the NBA is basically a form of entertainment and things are let go and people are, you know, taking care of star players.

40:29So he was like, I don't really know what you what you did wrong by telling somebody, you know, this. And I said, Dad, there's a lot more to it that's going to come out. But, you know, I'm in a lot of trouble. And it was the, you know, most sickest feeling that you could ever have in your stomach when you have to tell, you know, a parent or a spouse, you know, what you did something terribly wrong. And it was going to not only affect you, but the people that you love the most. And in my case, you know, my parents, my, my brothers, my children. So, you know, it was awful. How'd your kids handle it?

40:59You know, my kids, uh, you know, knock on wood, you know, got through it. Uh, they're all part of my lives today. They all were able to, you know, kids are resilient as the, you know, the famous quote goes and, you know, they were able to fight through it and they're, they're strong. And, you know, I think we became closer and better, you know, because of everything. So, you know, I was very fortunate because I had great family support, friend support. But there are situations where, you know, you come out of that federal prison system and people don't have that. And it's just tough to, you know, recover.

41:31And it's very, very difficult on people and families. Well, that's important, too. I think you made a statement. It's you go in one way, family intact or whatever it may be. despite what happened you may have some you know different points of views and some people are going to be upset no doubt they say sometimes time heals all wounds whether that's true or not it may but it seems like because you kind of went you know arms open heart open you told your family they accepted that you went and did your time but then after prison there's their after shot okay now what do I do? Who am I? Where am I at?

42:08I have a felony on my jacket. I can't do what I really want to do. I'm limited. You kind of hit rock bottom, but you rebuilt your life through real estate, which I, you know, happened to do. But was there a single moment that when you were out that you decided, you know, I'm not going to be defined by the scandal and what happened? And if it was, What was that turning point? You know, it was tough for me to get past that because I was going to be difficult to get that, you know, off of my back because it was such a big scandal. It was so well known. You know, I went into a supermarket. People recognized who I was.

42:47I was on 60 Minutes. The story just wouldn't go away, you know, and it was difficult. But, you know, I just felt by, you know, doing the right thing little by little that, you know, eventually, you know, people are going to forgive and forget. And that's basically what happened because, you know, you just start doing the right thing and people start to realize that, you know, you are a family guy, that everybody makes mistakes. And mine was just something that was out there for the world to see. And, you know, I'm just fortunate that we live in a forgiving society and that, you know, people actually want to see you pick yourself up and do better.

43:24And I just got involved with the right guy at the right time. And real estate was in a position where nobody wanted it. And this guy showed me the business and I worked extremely hard and was able to rebuild my life. But, you know, it's difficult for people coming out of the federal prison system. You know, it's supposed to be jail, supposed to be for people that are a threat to society. And I think that we don't use jail in that manner. We just throw anyone and everybody in jail. It's almost like, you know, it's such a business. And a lot of people can, you know, maybe do, you know, home confinement or an extra year, a couple of years of probation and pay their debt to society rather than, you know, separating them from their wife and kids.

44:10and, you know, breaking families up, which is very, very difficult because I've heard lots of stories of people when I was in there and when I've been out about, you know, families being broken up. And that's the most difficult thing about, you know, the prison system for me. Yeah, but, you know, now that you've moved forward, you had this stigma put on your back, criminal, whistleblower, scapegoat, whatever it may be. But how does Tim define himself? You know, I define myself right now as a guy that takes pride in his kids and the success of his kids and moving forward, being the best father that I can possibly be.

44:48So to me, that's, you know, I don't know how many children you have, but that's, you know, the most important thing in my life. And I think it's the most important thing in a lot of, you know, guys' lives is to make sure that their kids are happy and healthy and you support them and try to guide them to be successful so that they don't make the same mistakes that you made, whether it's in business or choices in life. And, you know, we all know how important choices are, right? You know, they affect not only yourselves, but, you know, the people that surround you. So it's always important to try to instill in your kids how important choices are that moving forward, you know, they continue to do the right thing.

45:27How old are your daughters? Right now, they're 29, 28, 26, and 23. Man, that's a lot of female hormones going on in the house at once. You ain't kidding.

45:42So when your daughters describe you, what do you hope they say? You know, I hope they say that, you know, my dad certainly made some mistakes that we know about. And, you know, he's definitely, you know, rebuilt his life. And he's successful. And he's there for us every step of the way. There's not a time where I don't call my dad where he doesn't pick that phone up on the first ring. And he's always going to be there for me. No, I like that. You know, and Tim, as I look back at my career, 14 years, I played with 12 teams, which means I got a chance to play with some phenomenal players. I mean, and some great organizations, some that were not, you know, that good.

46:16But I got a chance to meet a lot of people and be around a lot of people. You know, but from your side of the whistle, what's the biggest misconception that players have about officials or about refereeing? You know, I think that they don't think that the officials really work hard and take pride in their job. There's a lot of things that go on behind the scenes of officiating, and they just don't show up with that whistle in their mouth. You're studying film on a continuous basis. You're studying the rules. You're trying to go out there and do what the league wants you to do. Now, because the league wants you to do certain things, sometimes that's not going to go in your favor if you're a team that, for whatever given reason, they want you to crack down on something on any given night.

47:03So it's coming from up top with the referees. They're the most talented 60 individuals in the world with their craft, and they're going out there for the most part, you know, to do the best job they can and, you know, to do what the league wants. Yeah, I know sometimes players, we forget, too, that officials are human beings who have feelings and have some because we're so competitive, you know, we feel that we can control everything on the court. Right. Not only that, Jimmy, you guys are the quickest, you know, greatest athletes when you look at every sport, right? The NBA game is extremely quick.

47:37You guys are moving up and down the floor at a fast pace. So it's very difficult to make a call, you know, when you're running up and down the floor and you're right there. It's almost easier to see if you're 20 rows up in the stands versus being right there on top of it. So, you know, it's tough when you're with the greatest athletes in the world moving at a quick pace to make a judgment call, you know split second that's what i think people really don't understand no i'm glad you said that it allows me to segue to this i like to do a rapid fire hot takes whatever it is for you because you talked about the officiating how tough it is right because when i do a game at the clipper game right now into a dome i love being on the floor so i can hear their interactions with the players and the coaches and the officials and what's saying but then you get lost like sometimes i can't see a play because of my angles where i can see everything you know a lot of times especially when calls are being reviewed.

48:28So rapid fire, some quick questions real quick. I want you to hit me back, all right? Sure. All right. Toughest player you ever had to officiate? Shaquille O 'Neal. Okay. Big, strong. Okay. Most people. Big, strong. You know, you're in there in the post with him. He's banging all the time. You know, is he getting the advantage from creating space because he's so big and strong? It's just difficult in the post with him. His size and strength worked for him and against him, too, in a lot of times. Okay. Exactly. Most professional player you dealt with? Besides me. David Robinson by far. Besides me.

49:02Number two. You would want David Robinson number two. All right, David Robinson. Best coach who worked the refs, the best? Larry Brown. Oh, man. That slow talk. Timmy, you know. Oh, the kids. You ruined it for the kids. You're doing it for the kids. Okay. Yeah. what's the one arena old or new that was the toughest or hardest to work in Portland because they had fans that were just relentless really in Sacramento because that was really their only professional sport they took it so serious they were always involved in the game so hold on wait wait wait wait to me Philly fans are even tougher than New York fans or Boston fans but you're saying Portland right I'm taking the fact out that they're throwing batteries and snowballs at people.

49:55I'm just saying, screaming and yelling on top of you right there. Okay. Michael Jordan, LeBron James, who got the better whistle? Michael Jordan, by far. I remember Jess Kersey, God rest his soul. I'm a young referee, and he just says, Hey, listen, Michael Jordan goes to the hole and he misses. I just blow the whistle because he's not going to miss. Speaking of Michael Jordan, and I don't know how much you watch the game right now, but is it being more or less entertaining to watch today than it was in the 90s? I think it's less entertaining, to be honest with you. I think that there was a lot of competitive, tough, you know, games that they allowed defense to be played in the 80s and 90s versus now they just want an open, you know, free-flowing game where you basically, you know, touch somebody, they're calling a foul.

50:45So I think it was better back in the day. and I try not to be the old guy that played back in the 90s and crossed over to the 2000s I think each generation is different they all had their greatness it's hard to compare errors because the games were different I think the way we played was different the onus on how we played was different because back in the day everything was inside out it's like Joe Montana can tell you right now what hell if I played now I would have much more I would have more passing yards now because I would throw it 30, 40, 50 times a game compared to 16 or 17. And that's why it's hard to compare goats because Tom Brady has it.

51:25Yes, but he threw the ball a lot more than Joe Montana or Terry Bradshaw or Troy Aikman, whatever it was. So that's why I kind of try to stay away from that a little bit. I give my opinion, but the nineties were great, bro. I'm going to tell you that because it was a physically tough game, tough from top to bottom. them but I appreciate you know the young men and women that play the game today because they're taught to play a different way uh and it's exciting to see and I know a lot of people like it a lot of people don't but I enjoy but listen as we sit here today and we're talking about the new generation of players and also officials that are under the microscope what's the single biggest vulnerability in the NBA right now that we get you we're dealing with this scandal that could lead to another scandal.

52:11You know, I just think, I know this is the scandal they're talking about, but I think this gambling is something that, you know, they have to somehow get out of the game. I think maybe with these prop bets that instead of it being an over and under, maybe you can only bet on a player to go over just so there's no tanking involved in any way, shape, or form. I just think that the gambling is going to be, you know, Something that they have to somehow fix or get out of the game or make these fans feel that the integrity is there in every step of the way. Well, it's interesting because Adam Silver came out and said something about the prop betting with regards to players who may be down the level on the bench that they can't be included in the prop bets.

52:58You know, to, I'm not going to say eliminate, but to lessen that happening in a game, because Jontae Porter was a player that wasn't in the starting five, probably wasn't in the rotation much, but at some point he got in the game or he had information or he got in the game, he was able to affect it. So I know that Adam Silver did kind of address some ways in which the NBA was working to minimize the effect of prop betting. Now, once you're in bed with him, kind of like the mob, it's hard to get out of it. I mean, it is. How do they get out of what they're involved in now? Commercials, every time you turn around, I'm sure they had aspirations of having some type of device, courtside seats so you could interact.

53:44Oh, and start gambling on the court right there. Real-time gambling. Yeah, it's something that they've got a major problem on their hands, and I'm not too sure I have all the answers on how to fix it. Yeah, me neither, man. But it's like one of those things that you couldn't run from and avoid it forever because it was too much money. Now, the players benefit from it, too, because that's money through the BRI, basketball-related income, that comes in and now they're able to split. So, as these TV deals continue to rise and all this money comes into these leagues, players are making more money.

54:15Okay? So, it's harder to peel that back and say, well, we're going to take that away. Now, you're peeling back money. Salary cap is going to be decreased. all this stuff. It has more of a residual effect than just, okay, we're going to take the gambling away and that's it. And that's why it's tough once you walk down this path and get into it is that you can get into it and have all these different parameters up on how you're going to deal with it. But until you're in it, knowing that some things can go wrong, don't get me wrong, I know the NBA kind of try to have these stop gaps in there because they know some things are going to happen, but you don't know the extent of it until you're in it.

54:53You don't know. So it's interesting from that perspective. Before we close out of here too, man, I just wanted to thank you for being a part of this. But if you had to, and I always go through this, we make mistakes in our lives, okay? And you never want to be defined by it, but you try to learn like, man, if I done knew this. You were 27 when you first put your NBA referee in your uniform on in 1994. So you got in in 94. I came in the league in 92. If you could go back to that day, you know, it's like me putting on the jersey and finally being able to get on the court, knowing everything that you know now.

55:31What advice would you give that young 27 year old man? I would just tell him you on the top of the world, you have the greatest job in the world, running up and down the floor with the greatest athletes in the world. You know, respect the fact that you've made it this far and don't do anything that would jeopardize your position. You're going to be in a great position for the next 20, 25 years. And, you know, take advantage of it. Enjoy the journey of being on the floor with the greatest athletes in the world. And, you know, don't do anything to jeopardize your position. Sam, man, I really appreciate you coming on.

56:06I know you've been hitting the circuit, especially when this thing jumped off with the NBA. You've been kind with your time. I appreciate it. You know, the funny thing is, too, and I was going to tell you this, I think we're going to have it on the website. when your case went down, it was a picture of me. I was in a Houston uniform, and I was arguing with you on the court, and I got that picture. You know, it's funny that you say that because I always remember you as, you know, like that smile you have now. You tried to kill the kindness in your personality, which to me, if I ever talked to NBA players, I would tell them, you know, utilize your personality.

56:43You know, as my dad always said, you're going to get more with sugar than you would with salt. So I don't know why more NBA players don't do that. Hey, man, we got egos, bro. We like to yell a lot. Don't like to smile a lot. But I appreciate you, Tim. Hey, listen, best wishes on everything to you and your family. I know things are kind of trending in the right direction for you. Happy for you. I know it's been tough. Been through a lot of stuff. Thanks for your insight, too, into what's going on and what may be down the road, not only just for, you know, NBA and NFL and professional sports, but what may be happening, unfortunately on the college scene as well.

57:18You know, and these guys are going through this. I told one of the FBI agents, you know, I wouldn't wish this on my biggest enemy. I hope that, you know, there's a way that, you know, a lot of this isn't true and I wish them nothing but the best. And I know you said you're friends with Chauncey and I hope that, you know, a lot of this stuff isn't true and he's able to get through this because, you know, we all have families. Like you said, we all make mistakes and, you know, I wish nothing but the best for him. Yeah, appreciate you, brother. Be safe. All right. Thank you, sir. Incredible interview.

57:48That was Tim Donahue. A huge thanks for him for an incredibly candid conversation. You've been saying for a long time, a lot of stuff has been consistent. So no matter what you think of his story, it is a critical piece of NBA history and it's never been more relevant than it is right now. Let us know what you think in the comments. Don't forget to like subscribe and find us wherever you get your podcast. we'll see you next week on the Jim Jackson show