Hour 3: Guest Host Tom Pelissero, ESPN’s Chase Daniel, plus ‘Bull Durham’ Director Ron Shelton

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1:27Now, on with the show. You're out! There's confusion on the field. Sal Freelich took away a grand slam. The Rich Eisen Show. With guest host Tom Pelissero. Earlier on the show. Three-time Super Bowl champion Mark Schlereth. Ten-year NFL veteran defensive tackle Malik Jackson. Coming up. Writer and director Ron Shelton. ESPN NFL analyst Chase Daniel. and now sitting in for rich it's tom pelissero welcome back to the rich eyes and show everybody disney plus espn the app and espn radio presented by progressive insurance this man's been on the show multiple times before you could see there's the durham bulls cap signed by kevin costner and this man who wrote and directed it and is the inspiration for bull durham ladies and gentlemen here to promote for the first time Bull Durham the musical oh well I'm not gonna sing and dance but I've known you for a long time it's it's a pleasure to be able to say that and you have been to use the Goodfellas phrase cultivating this caper for quite some time right the Bull Durham the musical and it's finally now happening, Ron?

2:45It's at a longer development than normal, although all musicals take forever. I'm learning why, because you can only rehearse them every six months, really, because you have to pay 40 people to come in and sing and dance, and then you spend the next six months fixing it and then bring them back. So, yeah, we were fully financed about eight, seven years ago, ready to go at theater. And two tragedies happened. One was our principal financing producer, who has seven Tonys and was a minority owner of the Cincinnati Reds. He was the perfect guy. Had a heart attack and died. And then we put him, as we've replaced, tried to replace him, who was irreplaceable, the pandemic hit.

3:34and everything shut down. We had to give all the money back to the investors and start all over, and here we are. And here we are, and it's finally starting to run through Sunday, November 2nd, at the Paper Mill Playhouse in Milburn, New Jersey. And then, so this is now, this is off-Broadway, to say the least, but, I mean, the idea would be for this to catch a little bit of fire and go? Well, catch a lot of fire is the goal. I mean, we've got Tony winners everywhere and Tony nominees everywhere, you know, and the director and the cast and the choreographer. And, I mean, it's a big-time show. And the Milburn, you know, if AAA in baseball is a phone call away, this is like 4A.

4:20I love it. I mean, it is, people use it for shows right off of Broadway after they've closed or as the jumping off for Broadway. way and that's where we hope we are that's where you hope you are and okay let's just jump into it so which scenes from the film are now set to music that we would uh be interested in well a lot of lines from the script that turn out to turn into songs i mean you may remember when thick-headed Nuke Lelouch is being tutored by Annie in one way and crashed by another. It finally dawns on him. He says, you know, I figured it out. Winning is better than losing. And winning is better than losing is a huge show-stopping number with bats flying and it's pretty great.

5:13Another time, you know, there's another line every woman deserves to wear white. That's the big woman empowerment number. there's a few scenes that, a few, you know, there's some earthy language, maybe not quite as earthy as the movie, and there's no bathtub scenes, sorry folks. You know. There's a lollygag in the ball. Oh, there's a bit, oh, lollygag, we, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we lollygag, we fight, we curse. Yeah, it's a very spirited, very physical, you know highly entertaining and we think funny show and so do audiences so I think everybody could use a laugh right now and and this this appeals across the board like the movie did you know you didn't know if that movie was polarized no this brings us all together sure and two-time Tony nominee Carmen Cusack is Annie Savoy in this fantastic right fantastic and Nick Walker is Crash Davis.

6:21Yeah, by the way, he was in Hamilton. He's now the lead in the Phantom reboot. In fact, he was going from rehearsal to the lead in Crash Davis and Phantom every day, but he's now he's done with Phantom. But yeah, we have a discovery for Nuke and just, I don't know. I really, you know, we ran it a few years ago in Atlanta. This is a much, much further advanced version with a new director and a new cast. But it was the, and we brought, the Atlanta Braves came to see it. And the Gwinnett Braves, the AAA team was right there. Sure. And the manager of Gwinnett was Snitker, who was before he got his shot in the big leagues.

7:01Right. And so he and the coaches said, this is the first musical we've ever been to that we like as much as our wife. Because, you know, the women drive the guys to the musical and they go to serve your lady and you pretend you like it. Actually, I think this is for everybody. Well, you've always had strong female leads in every single thing that you've done, Ron. And that's sort of like your secret sauce is you write very strong female characters in otherwise one would think pop culture, iconic stuff that is for men, but not really. Like you kind of hide that thing really well. You have that hidden ball trick in everything that you do here, Ron.

7:40Well, it's not very hidden, really. Right, I know. I mean, Andy Samoy tells the story in Bull Durham. Right. I mean, who's the most successful person at the end of Why I Can Jump? Rosie Perez. And, you know, it's Rene Russo's character, Dr. Molly, a shrink in West Texas. It's a tough gig. And she's the one that explains to Roy McAvoy, Kevin Costner, what you just went through because he can't figure it out. So, yeah, I think that, you know, the men become clearer if the women are stronger and vice versa. Ron Shelton here on the Rich Eisen Show. So Bull Durham making it. Walk me through who was first attached to that when you first started coming up with the idea of Bull Durham and then getting it off the ground.

8:33Who was first attached? I got Kevin. I got Kevin before people quite knew who he was, but we knew we were going to quickly find out. And while we were trying to get it financed, The Untouchables came out, and then No Way Out came out, and that greenlit the movie because... No Way Out greenlit Bull Durham. Because the New York Times said, Kevin Costner is a movie star. and um and 30 days later we were in pre-production and we shot it almost immediately no kidding uh yeah much quicker than today you can't you can't pull that stuff off today it's too bureaucratic but but casting susan sarandon i know was definitely uh yeah a a i guess a to-do correct like she she wasn't immediately green greenlit for that studio for some crazy reason didn't approve her and then she flew on her own all the way from Italy with her two-year-old daughter Eva to audition you know at that Warner Brothers lot right so her agent called and I said she's not approved well she's gonna be there tomorrow afternoon I said well I'll meet her and I brought Kevin in and she was great and then we called the studio and said Susan we like Susan can you put her on the list and the studio head who's become a friend of mine said you know she just came in the other day i saw her and she looks great yeah we'll approve her well she didn't come in the other day she went right from the audition to the hallway of the studio looking like a thousand million bucks walked up and down the hallway schmoozing and she found mike metavoice office mike how are you and then he called say i saw her a few weeks ago no you saw her five minutes ago and and uh and so i you know that was it was a willful act by her which she was great obviously but the first choice for nuke was charlie sheen is that right yeah okay now who really is a good pitcher right i mean we all remember him from major league but that well that was but that was after that was later so charlie sheen was originally what why how did tim robbins get that gig done well charlie um he turned it down and he still talks about this uh because he was sort of committed to Eight Men Out, the Black Sox scandal.

10:55That's a great movie. John Sayles directed movie. The same studio was making that same summer. Nobody would make a baseball movie, and Orion made two at the same time. So it was the same studio that was making Bull Durham was making Eight Men Out. At the same time. About the Black Sox scandal. Now, so Charlie could have got out of that because Nuke was a bigger part. Yeah, right. But he didn't. And now he's got his book out and his documentary out. And he's still, his wild ride continues. But so Tim Robbins showed up on your radar screen how then? No, he just came into an audition with 47 other people.

11:35No kidding. He was this big hulking guy and he had this sweet face and was awkward. And I knew he wouldn't pitch as well as Charlie, but he otherwise was the character. and that's how he got it. But Charlie could have got it. So then you got Costner as a guy to help you greenlight it because No Way Out was such a hit. Susan Sarandon basically got herself the role by showing up and just being Susan Sarandon and looking like Susan Sarandon and acting like Susan Sarandon. And Tim Robbins gets the gig because Charlie Sheen didn't have eight men out and he just showed up and you're like, that's Nuke.

12:11I didn't right away because he didn't tell me. He was lying, which within industry standards, he was lying. Right. And his agents were lying. They said, he's never been in a movie. He's a discovery, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, he'd been in the lead in Howard the Duck, which was the biggest bomb in the history of Hollywood. Oh, my gosh. But I didn't see it. Nobody saw it. Nobody knew he was in it. He was great, though. And he also was, you know, he's 6 '5". Right. And most of the guys reading for Nuke look like younger versions of Kevin. And if you're the woman, you're going to not choose the younger version of Kevin.

12:49You're going to choose the mature, 35-year-old version of Kevin. So I wanted somebody who was very different than Kevin, and that was Tim.

12:59What's your—I'll screw it. I know you're probably going to say it's tough to decide, but what's your favorite line of that movie? You're proud. Here we are all these years later. like, I stuck the landing on that one based on my own experiences or anything like that, Ron? Well, not counting the Rosegos in the front, big guy. When Kevin is telling Tim, when Crash is telling Nuke, giving his last instructions before the big leagues, he says, you know, they're going to light you up, don't worry about it. he says this game is played with fear and arrogance and of course Newt says fear and ignorance but fear and arrogance is probably the closest to what I believe of any line I've ever written meaning if we don't all acknowledge that we're afraid and don't know what we're doing we're lying or we're not honest and you're not fully human if you if you aren't arrogant enough to say, look at me, I'm here, I'm going to do it.

14:07So it's the acknowledgement of both, I think, that makes greatness. Did you realize that when you were playing? Like, when did that dawn on you, fear and arrogance? When did that hit you? Well, I think if you're an athlete, you're making a living as an athlete. Right. You know right away that everybody you're competing against is the best in their high school, the best in their college, whatever. Right. And they're all playing with a bit of fear and a lot of arrogance. and that we're all equal that way. It's just some guys have better fastballs. But most baseball players, most athletes, maybe not in football, but maybe there's the handful of guys in any sport that can do things that nobody else can do.

14:50Nobody else could run like Barry Sanders, can do the things that Mahomes can do, or whatever. There's those guys. Otani, another example. Otani. or the linemen for the Rams, Aaron Donald, those guys. Everybody else, there's a sort of similar, really better than almost anybody else, but it's these guys that succeed. It's the smarter versions that figure out how to apply the same 6.2, 240. Right. And the other guy who runs the same 60 dime and has the same you know so it becomes a mental game at a certain place well isn't that what's the line rock off the most important five inches or whatever something like that or are the ones between your temples right when it temples you know what I mean and obviously we all know that from obviously 10 cups another example of that yeah that the I've got a movie in the spring about based on a book that was written 40 years ago it's about Ted Williams when and he was 70, and he was the fly-fishing king of keys.

15:59And a writer goes down to interview him without being invited, and Ted hated writers, and it's about these two guys. And I've got two great actors to play each one, Ted at 70 and the writer. And this is the spring movie, we believe. And I interview a lot of guys who knew Ted and played for Ted when he managed. we forgot he managed about eight years after playing and they said they were all in spring training and he was showing up and they were terrified of ted williams because of his reputation sure although he was not the guy the book shows players loved him coaches loved him everybody loved him except the boston press and he and every player said he said you guys are all in the big leagues for a reason I'm not gonna mess your stance I'm not gonna tell you how to hold the bat or where to stand you figured that out to get here all I'm gonna talk about is this mm-hmm the middle approach and the team average went up 35 points that year amazing and he was manager of the year just talking about this one of my in you know my first iteration with ESPN you know the seven years that I was there being the voice of Major League Baseball on ESPN radio.

17:21And then SportsCenter would be sending me to the World Series, where I met Charlie Sheen, by the way, or the All-Star Game, where I was for Fenway Park, you know, in 1999 for the All-Century team. Kevin Costner was the one who introduced all the players and they came out and the current All-Stars lined up from home plate to third base, home plate to first base. and then the all-century team lined up. I'm getting goosebumps just to even remember, Ron, from first to second and second to third. And it was this constellation of all-time greats, current and former. And then Ted Williams came out and threw the first pitch, if you remember.

17:58And McGuire told me, because he went up to Ted Williams, and they had a conversation. And I asked McGuire, what did Ted Williams say to you? and he said Williams asked him that when you hit one right on the screws do you smell the wood burning from your bat is what he asked him and McGuire says I told me I do that the you know the baseball the horse hide and the you know the the strings when it hits the wood in a certain way it would like light somewhat of some smoke you know and I thought I'm like this is just next level like that yeah that's that's not mortals talking yeah you know what i mean that's the beauty of baseball like this moment right there's fire that was what oh yeah yeah it was it's a great moment and ted came out never forget it it was like those guys were nothing and ted was the guy right in the middle i mean and you know and and and gwynn and griffey jr kind of held him up as he threw the pitch to fist i was right behind home plate clearly i'm not going to approach this you know like i'm i'm leaving these these folks to themselves here um i will never forget it i will never forget that night is truly one of the greatest nights of my entire life and career unbelievable standing on that turf and he died three years later yeah uh before i let you go um what's your favorite sports movie ron i've never asked you this i've never asked you this when we were a couple fingers uh into a drink or or in your previous appearances here i'm i can't believe it but what is your favorite sports movie the hustler you consider that a sports movie yeah okay then why why is it a sports movie and then what it's competition okay um it is about everything that all that we're talking about in these other sports the head game okay it's it happened to star paul newman jackie gleason and george c scott and i forgot the woman she's all-time great director.

19:59I think it's about, it's so contemporary even though it was made 60 years ago in the black and white movie. And I think it's everything in sports is. Piper Laurie was the... Piper Laurie was fantastic. So that's my favorite one. I like other odd ones that nobody can remember. There were some great British ones, but I can't talk about sports movies because I started making them because I was so hypercritical of other ones that I don't want to come out like being a curmudgeon. So do you consider Raging Bull a sports movie? Yeah, it is a sports movie because it's about a guy. I mean, for me, Raging Bull is the best movie about a boring guy ever made because I don't think...

20:46Jake LaMotta is boring to you? He is a boring guy. I mean, he beat his wife. He couldn't... He's brilliantly portrayed. night and it's a very watchable movie sure but la mata is the is la mata the subject of the movie maybe well he is there um is rocky a sports movie it's a fairy tale sports movie it's a fair like a lot like we've had uh stallone and carl weathers may rest in peace on and they both thought um love story would be a way to describe it that's fair you know but obviously it's about boxing it's about sports. Bull Durham's a love story. I mean, yeah, what other? Well, there are a lot of great boxing movies.

21:29Sure. I'm just trying to throw some other ones your way. Do you like Hoosiers? Yes and no. It was really well made. I admire it. It was, and Hackman was great. And Hackman helped greenlight Bull Durham in a way because he was in No Way Out, you know, with Costner. Yeah, he was. So that scene in the back of the limo really helped, too.

21:56Let's give Sean Young some credit, says Ron Shelton, everybody. Okay, all right. And then just to bring it all full circle, did you like Color of Money, which was the technical sequel to The Hustlers? It got Newman his Oscar finally, which was not near. He should have got his Oscar for The Verdict. Oh, what a great movie that is, Ron. And Ron, that is a great, great movie. Jack Warden is in that as well. Oh, gosh. I just saw it again. It holds up. It does. I just saw it a couple years ago, too, where he plays a drunk lawyer down and out, and he gets the case of his life. James Mason plays the opposing attorney.

22:39I think Sidney Lumet directed it, and I think David Mamet wrote it. Yes, Mamet. Mamet wrote it. Yeah, it's a great movie. I mean, that's my favorite Paul Newman movie. But Color of Money is the hustler sequel. It was almost kind of a lifetime achievement Oscar. Right. He also is great in Cool Head Luke, but Newman. But Cool Head Luke is a really good movie. But you don't, you know, they don't give Oscars if it's funny. You notice. Tootsie was better than Gandhi. That year. Correct. By far. Nobody watches Gandhi, Tootsie holds up. I agree. Yeah. That's easy. Come Oscar time, the funny people don't win.

23:24Well, come Tony time, let's get it done. What do you think? That's right. Let's go. It's down the road. You can see it from here. Again, go ahead and find it. Papermill.org for tickets through November 2nd. Bull Durham, the musical. And they're selling, by the way. The tickets are really selling. Let's go. Let's go, man. Let's get it done, man. because I've known you've been really wanting this to materialize, happen for years, and I couldn't be happier for you. And always love having you on here, Matt. You're the man. Likewise. That is Ron Shelton, everybody. Papermill.org to go see Bull Durham musical right here on The Rich Eisen Show.

24:06The Rich Eisen Show podcast.

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26:14Back to the Rich Eisen Show, Disney +, the ESPN app, and ESPN presented by Progressive Insurance. Chase Daniels should be along joining us shortly here. I did not get the opportunity to flip over to baseball last night. I did catch, though, this morning, Chris, one of the stranger plays I can remember seeing, first 8-6-2 double play in MLB postseason history. The curious quote was the Dodgers manager saying after the game, like, oh, it was a brain fart running the bases. I don't know. Well, no, not really. That's what he called it, quote, brain fart. I know, but I would have been equally as confused.

26:58It was one of the most bizarre plays. His base is loaded, bomb to center field. Brewer's outfielder goes up. He's trying to make a catch at the wall. It goes off his glove, off the top of the wall. Then it comes back into play, and he catches it. And everyone's just kind of standing around because I think the runners thought, oh, he caught it. Oh, it hit the wall. The wall's in play. It's a live ball. Throws it, shortstop, home, force out at home. The catcher runs all the way to third, double play. It's one of the most bizarre, confusing, interesting plays to ever see. It's got to be the only 8-6-2, two unassisted double play in Major League history.

27:37There was apparently another one, a Sammy Sosa fly ball, but it was a tag out at the plate. Oh, okay. So someone wasn't exactly burning it up down the third baseline in that particular instance. Yeah, this one I understand why all the runners were just kind of standing around confusing because it was bizarre to watch. It was bizarre when it happened live and I was still talking about it hours later with my baseball friends and And man, but still, you know, Dodgers bullpen makes it interesting. Not sure why you took Blake Snell out of the game. Story of his career. He was cruising, but Dodgers able to able to get it.

28:11And then you go on the American League side. The Blue Jays, TJ, has been a wagon for months. And is TJ a Blue Jays fan? No, but I know he's a baseball fan. No, I thought you were throwing it at him. He's seen Bull Durham. I mean, he's a fan of just he just threw darts at the wall. He's got the Cowboys. He's got the Sixers. I never know where we're falling. There's a story behind all of them, you jerks. I'm aware. I've heard the story. Don't call me a jerk. I wasn't going to bring that up. Well, but at some point you would have. No, I'm above that now. They've just been beasting through everybody in the American League to run out the rest of the season.

28:48They looked kind of like on a World Series collision course with the Dodgers. And then Seattle, this team of destiny, takes both games on the road. yesterday hitting a bajillion home runs. Oh, man. Crazy. We're guaranteed a World Series matchup we've never had before, which I think is pretty awesome. Kind of goes back to a couple years ago, I've said before, when it was Diamondbacks-Rangers, a matchup we've never seen before. I think it's fun. It's interesting. And, you know, I would expect Toronto to get back in it, higher register. But, man, man, oh, man. Well, what would be your preferred World Series matchup, TJ?

29:25The Mets against anybody. Ah! I mean, one that's alive. The most able to. The preferred option of what's currently available to you. Of course, how could I forget that you weren't specific enough? All right. Look, I live here if I got it. And so the Dodgers, right? Even though Otani is, what is going on with Otani right now? Was he one for 20? His last 21 at bats? But of course, you know, I'm not an L.A. fan when it comes to the Lakers. That's for sure. But when it comes to baseball, I'll put my fandom behind the Dodgers for my grandpa. So do I, TJ. And hopefully they'll win. So Dodgers, just to recap, Dodgers, Mets, Clippers, Sixers.

30:10You asked me who I want, and then I gave it to you, and now you're going to put them on the band. No, I'm just asking. There he is. I don't care. Yeah, TJ, climb aboard the Dodgers. Let's put the Dodgers up there. You're going to poke in the hornet's nest. Yeah. Who cares? Do you still have penance? No, which is such a bummer. I loved penance growing up. When was the last time you saw a penance? Oh, I have one over here somewhere. In a store. I mean, in a store. Do they sell penance? That's a good question. I don't even know. They got it, right? Everyone I do. I'm not sure. Amazon, you can still.

30:41Let's check it out. Growing up in the 80s, like, everyone I do had penance on the wall. Yeah. And I would think, Del Tufo, you're slightly older than me. Yes. But you were also in the penance generation. One of the biggest things I did as a kid is my brother had a Miami Dolphins pennant from their undefeated season. And I drew on it, which was like, yeah, I got in a lot of trouble. Did you get even with him? Yeah. Something happened when we were kids. What was it? I don't know what, but I drew like a smiley face right on it. It didn't end well for me. Yeah, you can definitely go on Amazon instead.