Pro Football Hall of Famer Michael Irvin

28 Aug 2025 · 54 min · 16 chapters

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In short

Michael Irvin discusses Netflix’s “America’s Team: The Gambler and His Cowboys,” including his personal faith, a past hit-for-hire incident, and what he learned from the documentary; the show also debates Dallas contract/negotiation issues involving Micah Parsons and Jerry Jones. Seth Wickersham promotes his book “American Kings: A Biography of the Quarterback,” arguing quarterback development is hindered by NFL incentives and “context matters.”

Guest backgrounds

Michael Irvin is a Pro Football Hall of Famer and longtime Dallas Cowboys star. Seth Wickersham is an ESPN senior writer and author.

Key claims

Irvin says talking about hard history is part of his spiritual process; he learned Jerry Jones’ NFL thesis and long-term drive surprised him. He argues negotiations should flow through agents with numbers, not ego. Wickersham claims the NFL lacks a developmental league because teams profit regardless of performance and don’t see urgency; quarterbacks are often “busts” due to bad situations.

Notable examples

Irvin recounts a hitman plot tied to hotel events and his jail meeting with Johnny Hernandez. Wickersham cites Kurt Warner’s path, retread QB careers (e.g., Baker with Sean McVay, Sam Darnold with Kyle Shanahan/Kevin O’Connell), and Brock Purdy’s readiness as a contrast.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Setting Up the Conversation with Michael Irvin

0:33 to 0:59

Rich Eisen prepares for a lively discussion with Hall of Famer Michael Irvin.

“And a throwback flick at the local drive-in.”

Setting Up the Conversation with Michael Irvin

1:39 to 2:05

Rich Eisen prepares for a lively discussion with Hall of Famer Michael Irvin.

“We got a big, jam-packed hour number two on this Thursday before Labor Day weekend show.”

Discussion on the Netflix Documentary

2:05 to 4:53

Michael Irvin shares insights about the Netflix documentary featuring the Cowboys.

“about this Netflix documentary series, America's Team, The Gambler and His Cowboys.”

Michael Irvin's Life and a Hit on His Life

4:53 to 7:33

Irvin reveals a dramatic story about a hit put on his life and its aftermath.

“Yeah, I am hearing a lot about it, Rich.”

Insights from the Documentary and NFL History

7:33 to 10:12

Explore fascinating insights about Jerry Jones and the Cowboys' history from Irvin's perspective.

“Maybe the next time it's not undercover.”

Negotiation Tactics and Jerry Jones' Comments

10:12 to 14:00

Discussion on negotiation tactics in the NFL, focusing on player representation.

“dear friend, America's Team The Gambler and his Cowboys available for streaming exclusively on Netflix which means you could see it right here through the Roku portal right here on the Rich Eisen Show.”

Negotiation Tactics for Michael Parsons

14:00 to 24:50

A deep dive into the challenges faced by Michael Parsons in his contract negotiations with the Dallas Cowboys.

“And I don't see like somebody's got to tell both sides, uh, move to each other.”

Seth Wickersham Discusses His Book

27:12 to 28:00

Seth Wickersham shares insights from his biography of NFL quarterbacks.

“show or have them on the show in person that they don't exist in a little zoom square right Seth Worker is a whole human.”

Exploring Quarterback Development

28:00 to 29:17

Learn about the challenges of developing quarterbacks in today's NFL.

“Did either of you see Russia from your house?”

The Inequities of NFL Opportunities

29:17 to 33:19

Discover the systemic issues affecting quarterback success and development.

“Welcome back to the Rich Eisen Show radio network.”
Show all 16 chapters

Celebrity and Quarterbacking

33:19 to 36:45

Understand how fame impacts the quarterback position and performance.

“these guys make a fortune each year regardless of how good they are.”

The Dynamics of Success in the NFL

36:45 to 39:55

Explore the factors influencing success and the relationship between players and management.

“But like, you know, starting with really Bob Waterfield and Jane Russell, I mean, they might have been the country's first power couple in the 1940s here.”

Quarterbacking Insights for the Future

39:55 to 42:00

Gain insights on the qualities of future successful quarterbacks in the NFL.

“Does he feel that there was some sort of, you know, nuking of his, you know, opportunity to get a job elsewhere in the NFL?”

Quarterback Insights and Coaching

42:00 to 44:42

Exploring the potential of young quarterbacks and coaching influences.

“I think when Josh McDaniels was there in Mac Jones' rookie year, they did well.”

Bachelor Party and Personal Stories

46:13 to 53:14

Guests discuss bachelor party plans and share personal anecdotes.

“True or false, one of your first gigs was a Preparation H commercial.”

Fantasy Team Name Selection

53:14 to 55:36

The team deliberates over fantasy football team names.

“getting thrown at an Emmy thrown at me and almost just like killing me.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today.

0:30Rich Eisen:This message is brought to you by AppleCard. Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your AppleCard with ApplePay. Apply for AppleCard now and use in minutes with ApplePay. Subject to credit approval, AppleCard is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com. This is the Rich Eisen Show. What was it called? The Rich Eisen Show. Bo loads it up. Franklin makes the catch.

1:06Rich Eisen:Live from the Rich Eisen Show studio in Los Angeles. True breeze. Five other guys went. Bo was kind of viewed wrongly.

1:14Seth Wickersham:When Sean Payton told me I really wanted Bo Nix, next to or above all these other guys. Like, I believe that.

1:21Rich Eisen:Earlier on the show. NFL on Fox analyst Mark Sanchez. Coming up. Pro Football Hall of Famer Michael Irvin. ESPN senior writer Seth Wickersham. Comedian Adam Ray. And now, it's Rich Eisen. That's right. We got a big, jam-packed hour number two on this Thursday before Labor Day weekend show. Seth Wickersham is in our green room. He's going to come out and talk about this book, American King's A Biography of the Quarterback. Adam Ray's going to join us in studio. We'll have some laughs in hour number three. your phone calls. They're all lit. We're going to take them. 844-204-RICH is the number to dial, but right now the Playmaker's about to join us.

2:02Rich Eisen:I know you guys have been talking, as has everybody else, about this Netflix documentary series, America's Team, The Gambler and His Cowboys. It's available exclusively on Netflix, which means you can see it right here on Roku. Our friend, our buddy, the Hall of Famer, Michael Irvin. Michael Irvin. Give him the drop. Give him the drop, Mike. Give him the drop right off There you go. There you go. just for you, Michael, right? I got it. I like you, man. How you doing, my brother? How's everything going over there? I am great. How are you doing? I'm doing well, Rich. Listen, I miss you. I miss the guys.

2:42I miss us. I really do.

2:45Rich Eisen:Well, here's the thing, Michael. I miss us as well. And us can happen if you do a handful of things. Answer your phone.

2:57Rich Eisen:actually clear out your voicemail box that's always full, so I can't leave a message. Those are two things. Just for starters, just for starters. Us becomes much easier to be us if those two things occur. And you're right, Rich, and I must clarify something. Now, you do understand the mailbox being full. I would love to clear it out for you, but if I clear that out, my family will call me and clear out all my money. So I leave that box full. I wasn't thinking. See, I thought it was about me, Michael. I forgot that you have one more I in your first and last name than I do. So my bad. My bad. You understand, Rich.

3:46You know, when you have 16 brothers and sisters, everything that goes wrong, your money can fix. Your money can fix it. And they call you all the time. So I've left that mailbox full for the last 20 years. Okay.

4:08Rich Eisen:Now I got it. I won't ever bring that up again. That said, I imagine. I can take the text, Rich. I can take the text. I'm talking about from the family. They said, I think I'm going to lose my house. I can deal with that. But if I hear him on the, I don't know what to do. Your little niece is right here and they're about to put us out. I'm going to write a check right back. You know what I'm saying? So I see that. You know, I. Mailbox is full. For a reason. For a reason. That said, I imagine your phone must be blown up over this documentary. People must be hitting you up all the time about what they're seeing from you and your story and the Cowboys story and the reminiscing and the history of this documentary is outstanding.

4:53Rich Eisen:you must be hearing a lot about it. Yeah, I am hearing a lot about it, Rich. You know, before I was talking to somebody, they said, Mike, why are you being, you know, a lot of people don't want to talk about it. I said, why are you opening up and talking about it? I said, well, first of all, it is history. And truth be told, you know, I'm saved, I'm a spiritual man, and God doesn't save you from stuff like that for you. He saves you to send you back in to get the rest of his. You see what I'm saying? So you got to talk about it and let the people know that are still in it that you come through it and you can help them.

5:30So that's just part of the process.

5:34Rich Eisen:Michael, again, I thought I knew everything about you or most everything about you. You had a hit put out on your life, Michael? Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Tell that story if you don't mind here, please, Michael. What happened? Well, you know, one of the girls that were in the hotel room that night, the girl Rochelle Smith, she was married to a cop, a police officer. And I didn't know that. And then I found out when she was coming over with my friend. And, yeah, I guess, you know, he couldn't. You know, Rich, he couldn't take it. He couldn't take it. And he said he didn't want this thing to go to trial.

6:14And he thought the only way that he could not go to trial is to take me out. So, yeah, he hired a hitman. But the hitman he hired was an undercover, thank God. And, you know, we were in court. Jeez. And they came to get us out of court. Man. No. They sent a documentary he got six years. He got two years. He did two years. He was getting out of jail, and I was still on probation. I went to go see him secretly. Secretly. I went to go see him to apologize because I didn't know. I went to apologize to him. And also, when I went to go see Johnny and meet with him, he was crying. Oh, my God. I've never been so touched, man.

7:02He was crying. He said, have you been praying? He said, my God, I've been praying. I don't know what. I can't believe you're here. God told me he was going to send you here. And he was tapping on me, too, to go see him, to apologize, because I was wrong. I took a woman out of this man's house, and I was in a hotel doing things with her and a friend, things like that. So I went to apologize to him. Do you know, when they found out that I went to apologize to Johnny Hernandez in jail, they called me in and they wanted to put me in jail because I was not supposed to be around any undesirables I said to them, let me get this right I said to them, you do know you guys are about to let him out I'm still on probation, he did two years I'm still on probation, you're about to let him out I think it's smart I will apologize maybe next time it's not an undercover So, you know what I mean?

8:02Maybe the next time it's not undercover. And we didn't think about that. It's not your life. That's what I said. So, you know, then they decide, okay, you just can't do it again. You ought to let us know and all of that stuff. But I had a hell of an incredible meeting with Johnny in jail that day. You know, I called to people and they made sure they snuck me and nobody saw me. But, yeah. Yeah, that was a moment.

8:32Rich Eisen:Man. And this is the sort of raw stuff that's in this documentary that has kind of taken people aback a little bit. Obviously, it's years ago. You know, the Cowboys, you know the truth, you don't. You see stuff like that as a log line for a documentary. You're like, yeah, really, I already know everything. And then you don't. Did you learn anything? Have you learned anything in watching this documentary that you didn't know, Michael? The thing that I learned that I didn't know that I thought was fascinating to the poor, you know, I like to try to find out what makes a man great, what makes a man tick in his journey.

9:10You know, Rich, you heard me say it a million times. I measure a man in distance travel. You know what I mean? Let me see your story. Let me hear. And the Jerry Jones story, to find out that Jerry Jones' college thesis was on the broken system of the NFL blew my mind. Blew my mind. Because most people, I think, think he's just some country bumpkin that just landed on some money and stole the Dallas Cowboys. To know that he was that directed and that pointed. You know, now he's always been my great friend. I love him, but I think that should say something to people. You know, this man has been doing this and been after this all his life.

9:55I thought that was fascinating. Just that. And he was ready to borrow money from Jamel Hoffa. You ready to die. You ready to die. You ready to die for your dream. That's the kind of thing that impresses me.

10:10Rich Eisen:Michael Irvin, Hall of Famer right here. dear friend, America's Team The Gambler and his Cowboys available for streaming exclusively on Netflix which means you could see it right here through the Roku portal right here on the Rich Eisen Show. Last time I saw this background you were on the left side of the screen on your YouTube channel. On the right side of the screen was Jerry Jones characterizing a player who said please talk to my agent about the things that you and I have just negotiated. He characterized that as being told to stick something where the sun doesn't shine and And that made some news, Michael, quite a bit.

10:44Rich Eisen:You were breaking some news. Look at you being a newsbreaker. What's happening here, Michael? Why would Jerry take a 26-year-old saying the conversations that we had, handshake or not, needs to be run through my agent as being told to stick it up his behind, Michael? What's up with that? Well, I don't know that that's totally laid out correctly. Okay, lay it out. Lay it out. Lay it out. Well, I don't know that, I don't know, because remember, Rich, I was in a conversation. I wasn't, even though I was interviewing Jerry, I feel this was more like a conversation, not a search for information. as an interviewer and an interviewee.

11:35When he said something like, they told me and I tried to send it to his agent. He didn't say he tried to send it to Mike. He said, I tried to send it to them. And they told me to stick it. Now, for me, for me, for me, for me, for me, I don't care, you know, how you guys got to these numbers. I'm going to tell you, send them on over. If I'm Michael Parsons, I'm going to tell my agent. You're looking at these numbers. Because whatever. If we don't sign the contract, then it's not a contract. But if you got some numbers on a paper that you believe you come to an agreement with, send those numbers because it smooths down my negotiation.

12:23Say, y 'all, somehow you came up with$40 million a year. Well, we really want$43 million a year. And he said he offered the most guaranteed money. And so say you want four years and they're offering five years. So now I got a$40 million offer for five years in front of me. My goal is to get the 43 for four. If I take the deal, any kind of just send it and we'll start negotiating off of it. I'll send it red line to 40, put a 43 red line to five years, put four years and send it back. you're in the middle of a negotiation right now. That's all I'm saying. And I think that's what Michael Parson should have been saying and should have made sure that got done.

13:07Wait a minute. We're going to take that number? Because now, now if you don't take whatever they come up with, you want 43 and you're starting at zero. Now you're$43 million apart. I'm just saying, never tell the man with the bag of money, shove it up yours. I don't care what you got, send it over. That's all I say.

13:28Rich Eisen:Well, okay. And let's take that from what you just said. Break it down. Let's put that in the gospel. Okay, like that's gospel. If you're the representative and you're hearing that Jerry Jones has called your client into his office or you've had a conversation with the client without him there, wouldn't you say something along the lines of that is great, but you're negotiating with me. let's talk about it that way so let's just put it this way at this point what you just said jerry jones is having a difficulty getting past he clearly told you that on your on your youtube channel in the interview and clearly um micah's representation can't get to the table if the guy who won't come to the table with them because he can't get past what you just mentioned um there's a loggerheads here and this kid's going to have to get on a plane to Philadelphia next Wednesday or not.

14:31Rich Eisen:And I don't see like somebody's got to tell both sides, uh, move to each other. And I don't see that. So I nominate you. Oh no, no, no, no. Oh yes. I nominate you. I nominate you because you can you can call the man with the bag right that you have that and you as an 88 clubber can call somebody divide that by eight you can you can you can you can boil it down to the 11 clubber that double i'm sure you've got i'm sure you've got his number to basically say you know hey i understand you're pissed but that's the guy with the bag just go in there and say you know what needs to be said don't you want to get paid and stay here and with the star on the side of your helmet everything and you could talk about what that means decades later you i nominate you my clever right i second your nomination rich you second it tj second your nomination.

15:44Rich Eisen:Right, right, right. And so did Jerry nominate me. And I would honestly, you know, and talking with Michael and telling him, this is your life is what I'm saying. Listen to this one. And this is what I say to Michael. This is your life. You have to understand when you're dealing and he does. He does. Michael's very smart. That's right. Yeah. But we understand that there are two things here. People always say, oh, this is business. It's not personal. It is personal because it's your personal money, Michael Parsons. It's your personal money. Don't let anybody mess with you about that. And the reality is all of it comes down to you.

16:28Now, Michael, I will say this to Michael, that there are so many added benefits to him being here in Dallas. And he knows his master plan. His master plan, Rich, I'm sure is not just a few hundred million, a few hundred million. He's going to get from the Dallas Cowboys. He also has a podcast that he can make another hundred million dollars on if he keeps running down the road. He's running with that star on the side of his helmet. You see what I'm saying? So when you're doing business on the field like he's been doing on the field playing great and he's doing business off the field like he's been doing with his podcast, you got to make sure that both entities are going to do great.

17:14And that means you got to play for the Dallas Cowboys to get it like you got it. So now you go back and say, let's make this as great as we can make it. But stop talking about me leaving. And I'm upset with Jerry because I wanted to make him, like I told you guys before, our legendary player. I thought Jerry should have given him a 10-year,$450 million deal. You know what I mean? like they did with Patrick Mahomes and be able to go into that contract to get us some room to go and get someone else. You know, that's what I wanted to make Michael Parsons because he is. He's that heart. He's that soul.

17:49He's an emotional player. Rich, I think this drains him way more than it does with Dak Prescott, a seedy lamb, because I see him a lot like me. Emotional, and he's an emotional player that gives it on the field, So he takes it very emotionally when it goes against him. No, for sure.

18:08Rich Eisen:I agree because with Dak and CD, Michael, that felt more like a business negotiation. It's just business. This one is caught up in the, I thought we had a handshake agreement. I bought the Dallas Cowboys in the handshake agreement. And I'm an old school guy. And I even redid the handshake agreement because he wanted more money. And then we finally agreed to something. And then he says, talk to the agent. And the agent even doesn't want to look at the numbers. stick it up the ass or whatever he said, shove it here. And so that, and he's got to be sitting there and thinking, CD and Dak didn't have to deal that.

18:41Rich Eisen:And CD didn't even show up to camp. I showed up. I'm there. You know, they told me to be more of a leader and I showed. And so, so to tell that 26 year old, Hey, kind of got to go into Jerry and say, you're sorry for reneging on the handshake deal and asking him to talk to the agent. He's probably sitting there going, who else in the NFL is being asked to do that? You know, with the numbers that I put up there. Wait, wait, wait, wait. We take these narratives and run it. No, no, no. I don't think that's not the narrative, Michael. That's not the narrative? Yes, it is because it's kind of flawed.

19:14It's flawed. It's flawed. Because it's flawed in this sense. It's flawed in this sense. Jerry and Michael, it's Jerry in the agent. This is where this issue is. The agent is not receiving whatever Jerry's sending. I don't care if he's sending a note from his manning. I'm receiving it because we're negotiating. Do you understand what I'm saying? You got it. If he said he had a deal, that doesn't bother me. We're talking about the agent saying, I didn't get you to talk to me first. This has a pep in the water. I'm going to go through me first. And I'm telling you, I don't care about the egos. And I'm telling you, Michael has to tell these two, I don't care about your egos.

20:07All I care is about my money. Honey, go get it. That's it. And you got to, we're football players. Sometimes you got to step in and be the businessman. That's the part of it. And right now it's Michael's life, and he has to be careful with it. I would hate for Michael to go play for$24 million this year when he had$159 million,$60 million, whatever that number is.

20:33Rich Eisen:I don't know if he's going to do it, Michael. I don't know. So, Craig, what's your crystal ball? Next Thursday? I mean, next Wednesday? Right, right. So, how does it work? How does it work? Wednesday morning there will be a bus to the charter, and he's going to be on it or not? Is that basically like – because that's – I'm wondering when midnight's going to be. Last year Dak was practicing, so he got on the plane to Cleveland. You know, that wasn't the question. CD had already come back. This time around now, the question is the kid can play for$24 million or not, and there's going to be what?

21:05Rich Eisen:A bus from the Star going to the airport for the charter, and is he going to be on it or not, right? Like that's the question? Next Wednesday? That's it, and that's the decision he has to make. You know, that's the decision he has to make. Okay, do I go play for$24 million? Yes. Do I stay home? Or do I tell my agent, get your butt on a phone call or go to Jerry, let's get you guys together and let's get everybody to talk. I don't care if I go sit in Jerry's office and say, Jerry, let's call my agent together right now. You see what I mean? You got to get people back talking. Leaving these two not talking isn't doing any good for anybody.

21:50Now, if Michael signs late, we get a chance to get Michael in late. The difference is in CD or that is you can put Michael in this first game. Like Coach talked about, you give him a few snaps. You just, hey, man, listen. Go on. We know you're not all the way ready, but you know how to get to the quarterback. That's number five. You see what I mean? Go get five.

22:14Rich Eisen:Go get five. You can still use it. Go get five. That's all we need you to do. don't worry about it. But somebody, somebody got to put down the ego. Somebody got to put down the ego. And since Jerry has the money in the bag, I'm not going to wait on him to put down the ego. I'm going to help me and my agent, and we're going out for my money. It's you. It's you. Again, you were pushing back on the narrative I was talking about that Micah's got to go apologize to Jerry. Fine, that might be too stringent a way of putting it, but you basically said Micah's got to go into the office and say, let's call the agent together, which means it's on him, which is, I guess, we're saying the same thing.

22:59Rich Eisen:I ain't got to apologize. I ain't got to come here and apologize. But I'm going to come on in here and say, let's go. That's you. It's you. It's you. Walk him in. Irv, walk him in. I'm going to go get him. I'm going to walk him in. Walk him in. You walk him in. You all come in and then we'll hear about how Michael Irvin got this thing done for the Dallas Cowboys. And you're the Conquering Hero and they're all going to come on your show. And you're Michael freaking Irvin. And then the only problem is if Michael wants to leave you a message, he can't on your cell phone. That's the problem. Yeah, you can't.

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23:35Don't leave any messages. Don't leave any messages. I don't need any messages. I am going to try. I'm going to do something. There you go. I knew it. I want to inspire you. No, I really am. Let me listen. Michael means too much to us. Michael means way too much to us, man. And ultimately, ultimately, Michael is going – I know. Michael's not going anywhere. He's going to be a Dallas Cowboy. And Jerry is not that crazy. Sooner or later. And hopefully this week because, you know, now we're one week away right now. Is it? Is it? One week away. Tonight. Yes.

24:16Rich Eisen:Michael, I love you, man. Thanks for the time. Let's talk or text and then talk when you're free. That's the way it works. Love you. You take care of yourself. Michael Irvin, check out his YouTube channel. Please do that. And of course, America's Team, The Gambler and His Cowboys available streaming on Netflix right here on The Rich Eisen Show. I love that line. Jerry's not that crazy. All right. We'll take a break. And in the break, I'll text Michael Irvin and test our new communication system. Seth Wickersham, come on out of the green room. Let's talk about the biography of the quarterback. American Kings is his book.

24:59Rich Eisen:Rich Eisen here with some advice. If high interest credit card debt is grinding you down, it might be time to call an audible with a SoFi personal loan. It consolidates your debt into one low monthly payment with no fees required And with as soon as the same day funding, you can make the right play fast. Call an audible on your debt today at SoFi.com slash debt play. Loans originated by SoFi Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891. Fast funds terms apply at SoFi.com slash debt play. Rich Eisen here for gusto. After all these years talking to athletes, coaches, entertainers, and people at the top of what they do, one thing is pretty clear.

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26:34Rich Eisen:That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash rich. One more time, gusto.com slash rich. Rich Eisen here. We talk a lot about battles in sports, teams battling through adversity, athletes fighting for every yard. The toughest warriors I've ever seen though aren't on the field. They're kids fighting cancer, their families standing beside them, doctors, nurses, caregivers. That's why I'm proud to support Hyundai Hope on Wheels. For over 28 years they've helped fund pediatric cancer research raising more than 303 million dollars and supporting over 40 000 children learn more and donate at hyundaiusa.com backslash hope on wheels it's a very 21st century thing to say but it's always fun uh to meet people in person on the show or have them on the show in person that they don't exist in a little zoom square right Seth Worker is a whole human.

27:26Rich Eisen:He's a real person. American King's biography of the quarterback. Seth Worker's latest tome. Available wherever you get your books. Good to see you, sir. I'm an actual human. Here I am. You are a human. With flesh and blood, with feet and legs. Arms and legs. That was amazing. Good to see you, man. Great to see you, man. Congrats on the book. Thank you so much. Why? Why this one? Oh, man. Because you can write about pretty much anything.

27:53Seth Wickersham:well what is being a failed high school quarterback really you know alaska's uncle rico my man i think that maybe led to me to have you know an automatic curiosity about it but you know i've been at espn 25 years and if you cover the nfl for espn you cover quarterbacks yeah and i still felt like there was a lot more to learn and i wanted to understand it from every point of view from high school to college to the nfl to retired hall of famer and um you know i wanted to write something that for anyone who had ever played quarterback mythologized it thought about it um and you know that was that's that's what happened and a sense of competition chris

28:34Rich Eisen:did that instill a sense of competition you that he calls himself alaska's uncle rico where you think well in your tenure in alaska i i played i played little league in alaska okay high school football in maine okay i got to your mains uncle rico i guess where in alaska you from anchorage I did not know that.

28:52Seth Wickersham:I lived in Ketchikan for a long time. No kidding.

28:54Rich Eisen:Did either of you see Russia from your house?

28:57Seth Wickersham:Or neither of you? Do we have to go there? I'm sorry. I can. I'm not at ESPN yet.

29:05Rich Eisen:But congrats again on this book. It is perfectly timed. I guess any book about quarterbacks is perfectly timed. certainly at the outset of an NFL playing season. Seth Wickersham is here on the program. Welcome back to the Rich Eisen Show radio network. Seth Wickersham from ESPN and biography of the quarterback. American Kings is available wherever you get your books, right here on the Rich Eisen Show in person. And, you know, I'd love to ask you about the question I always have with Kurt Warner. It's something that just recently came up as well with the fact that Dylan Gabriel is now the second string quarterback in Cleveland, Shador Sanders, is third.

29:49Rich Eisen:How in the world do you develop a quarterback in this day and age in the National Football League, certainly if he is not getting any reps as a starter? How does that happen right now?

30:00Seth Wickersham:You can't. And I think that, like, and Kurt, help me with the book, and we've talked a lot about this. I mean, he's so smart. And he's one of the few great quarterbacks who can talk about great quarterbacking. Like, he thinks about it at a really elevated and elite level. And I think that like there are few good and great quarterbacks as we know. And I almost think there are fewer good and great coaches. And what you have is a ton of quarterbacks who go to these systemically bad situations. Sorry, the Jets, the Browns, the Titans, you know, the Jets. We didn't have to go back for seconds, Seth, but I understand your point.

30:39Seth Wickersham:But like, and, you know, I think that like what's happened is, is that like we're so quick to label these guys as busts, even if they go to poor situations where they're not the only failure at that position there. And the coaches are under stress because they have to figure out a way to save their jobs and they can't really develop a guy. And it's been an interesting thing. I didn't write about this in the book, but it's interesting to look at like there's an entire economy of quarterbacks now in the NFL that are kind of these retreads, you know, where they were looked at as failures and they find another place to go they learn from a really smart coach like baker did with sean mcveigh or sam darnold did with kevin o 'connell and mike and kyle shanahan and gino smith and you know they can re-emerge and have really productive careers you know if they can just hang on and survive and kind of weather that storm of confidence well

31:31Rich Eisen:it's nature versus nurture sometimes right it's it's how you're born into the league how lucky you are to be born into the league. And I think, for instance, J.J. McCarthy. Okay, that's Justin Jefferson, and that's the quarterback whisperer of the moment, fresh office coach of the year campaign in Kevin O 'Connell. Thumbs up. Great defense as well. Great job. Then you've got, obviously, Sam Donalds is a perfect example of how he was born into the league. Zach Wilson's another one. So on and so forth. Nature versus nurture right there. But, you know, the question or the conversation I always have with Kurt on the subject matter, And this is why I think Kurt is so, as you point out, expert on the subject matter.

32:10Rich Eisen:He would not have been able to do what he did on the magic carpet ride for the St. Louis Rams if he didn't have NFL Europe or maybe the Arena League or the obvious failure in Green Bay where he got cut. And the question is, I have for you, certainly since you and Don Van Natta know ownership in the NFL, having covered it for as long as you have. Why does the NFL not put money into that? If I'm in the membership, there but for the grace of the injury gods go, my team, where I'm down a quarterback two or three, and this guy's not ready, and the whole season gets flushed down the toilet, why isn't there more money put into a developmental league or more money put into developing quarterbacks in the National Football League?

32:59Rich Eisen:Why not?

33:00Seth Wickersham:The ownership group, the membership, as they sometimes call themselves, they move slow unless an automatic profit is at stake, in which case they move really, really quick. And so I don't think they see the need for it. I mean, you know, what makes the NFL unique is that, you know, these guys make a fortune each year regardless of how good they are. And so people tune in and watch whether, you know, it's Justin Fields at quarterback or whether it's Matthew Stafford. And I think the most obvious answer is that even though I think intellectually they would understand the virtue of having a developmental league, they don't feel the huge necessity to do it because, you know, some of these guys winning isn't as important as you'd think it would be.

33:50Seth Wickersham:How about that? What an answer that was.

33:53Rich Eisen:I don't even know how to follow up on something like that because it just strikes me again. The 49ers were very fortunate that Brock Purdy was as ready as he was when they finally had to get down to him. And other teams get down a quarterback three and the season's gone. It's a miserable existence for their franchises. Seth Wickersham here on the Rich Eisen Show. How does it feel to have freaked out the entire city of Chicago with your book?

34:23Seth Wickersham:that was quite a ride i'm not gonna lie about that um you know i think that like it goes back to what you're saying though context matters and you know having built an audience you know it's like the situation that you're brought into and what you do with it matters even though people don't always they're not quick to see that and so i think that what carl and caleb williams were looking at um around the time that i visited with them and um in the lead up to the draft is like look, Chicago doesn't have a great record with quarterbacks. Carl Williams told me, you know, Chicago's where quarterbacks go to die.

34:58Seth Wickersham:And is there a way to exert some agency over a future employer? And, you know, they thought about it and they looked at almost every kind of, they were, you know, trying to find lawyers and agents and anyone who had ideas that might be able to help them at the end of the day though I think that Caleb was driving things Caleb met with the Bears you know Ryan Pohl said we're drafting you no matter what he met with his teammates he liked them he liked Chicago and he liked the opportunity and he didn't want to do what Jack and John Elway did or with Archie and Eli Manning did which is basically create an untenable situation he didn't want to do it um and you know even though it took a year they got what they wanted which is like an innovative offensive mind in Ben Johnson whose success is rooted in Caleb's success.

35:47Rich Eisen:So you're saying, have you spoken to Carl and Caleb since then? Are they, are they pleased with what, with what is now in fact going on there? I mean, I think that they're thrilled.

35:56Seth Wickersham:I mean, I think that like, I haven't talked to Carl specifically about Ben Johnson, but like, I think Caleb, you know, we met, um, to go through things, you know, some reporting in the book and stuff. And he had just been hired. I think that he had just come back from the press conference. Um, Caleb had just go back to work out in Florida. And, you know, I think he's ecstatic. And I think that like, you know, when Brady retired for the final time, Caleb texted Carl and he said, I need eight. And Carl was out on the East coast and he's like, eight, what does he need? Like a Costco shipment? Like, do I need to do something?

36:31Seth Wickersham:Like, what is he talking about? And it was eight rings. You know, that's where he, he saw the bar and you know, that's what I think he wants. And you can't do it alone the content like we said context matters Seth Bickersham here on the Rich Eisen show what did you learn about quarterbacking I think one of the most interesting things I you know the book is a lot about American ambition and American fame and I think that quarterback has gotten so big and almost from the moment it was started and invented by Walter Camp in 1906 like I have some it's not a history of the quarterback but I have historical aspects And like almost from that moment, it was defined and held in kind of a lofty status within the football world and even beyond.

37:12Seth Wickersham:But like, you know, starting with really Bob Waterfield and Jane Russell, I mean, they might have been the country's first power couple in the 1940s here. The L.A. Rams moved from Cleveland in part because of Bob Waterfield's celebrity and Jane Russell's celebrity in 1945.

37:27Rich Eisen:So Travis and Taylor are the first. They're the latest.

37:30Seth Wickersham:They're the prelude. And so I think that like at this point, it's gotten so big that when you look at the makeup you need to be a successful quarterback, it's not just about throwing. I think you you need to find people who can weather the fame. And I think that like. The people who do it really well, I think, have that little piece of their personality where there's a hole that can't be filled, like similar to a politician or a pop star where like they need to be at the center of their own ecosystem. They need to be received constant adulation and love and encouragement. And I think the toughest position requires some sort of.

38:11Seth Wickersham:There's huge insecurity that goes on with it. You'll read about it. But I mean, there's confidence you need to play quarterback among the great even out of insecurity. I think that even like among the greats, it's most acute. And I think that to me is really fascinating. Brady's insecure. Like he's well, he did a roast less than a year after he retired. He sat at center stage, didn't he? Nobody forced him to do it. We were there. We were there. It was a good roast.

38:35Rich Eisen:By the way, and again, for somebody who's chronicled the Patriots, it was therapy. Yeah. No, it was. And we talked about it. Yeah. That Brady's retirement ceremony that happened in New England a few weeks later wouldn't have been nearly as hunky-dory had there not been so much stuff gotten off people's chests, you know?

38:58Seth Wickersham:It's a little crazy because I remember, I'm pretty sure we talked at the time, but I did that big Patriot story in January of 18 about how the principals weren't getting along and maybe would they look for a way out. That story was, I mean, that one A took off and B came under a ton of scrutiny. And like, I always thought, you know, it'll age well. And I think that like, you know, Brady coming out and talking about how frustrated he was and how he wasn't going to return to New England that off season, unless something changed and how it was kind of on Robert Kraft to make it work, especially in regards to like Alex Guerrero and his role.

39:38Seth Wickersham:It's a fascinating time. It was a fascinating time. And then to think what they did after that, you know, they kept winning and it was just like you know it revealed so many things about like the nature of success and both the ego and the submersion of ego involved um fascinating story now i think i might be also inaccurate by

40:03Rich Eisen:saying that everything got worked out by the roast did you hear bill belichick's recent comment about being a college coach that he there's no owner or owner's son he said from the podium he did how did that one hit you i think he said it to ben volan right i thought he said i thought he said okay pardon me like he um you know like i said those things were real the things that you

40:28Seth Wickersham:know i was writing about him um tom curran wrote about him to an extent um you know but those things were real and i think that like look they push the bounds of achievement in football and it's not surprising that you would start to have some cracks in those relationships but i do think that um the way things ended in new england between you know both crafts and bill um you know i think that that's going to take a little bit more time to mend than it did with brady if it ever mends

40:59Rich Eisen:Does he feel that he's in college because of that fracture? Does he feel that there was some sort of, you know, nuking of his, you know, opportunity to get a job elsewhere in the NFL? I'm just wondering where this comment might be coming from.

41:15Seth Wickersham:Well, Don Van Nade and I and Jeremy Fowler wrote that story, you know, that came out when he didn't get any jobs. It looked like he was going to get the Falcons for a bit and he didn't. And we wrote that story about how, you know, Kraft had told the Falcons you can't trust him. And now did that cost him that job? I think it had some factor in it. And so, you know, we've seen it from Bill. He said it publicly. You know, he's gone back to the valuation of the Patriots before he got there and after he got there. And there's a lot of factors that go into that. But it is a fact that that, you know, that the value of that franchise has gone up quite a bit.

41:54Seth Wickersham:and you know that he and Tom Brady and you know a bunch of those great players have helped you know the Kraft family quite a bit and I think that you know from the Kraft family point of view you know he pissed off the greatest player ever who left went out and won a Super Bowl you know and then he you know had he struggled without him and you know the record is what the record was and And especially offensively, they just were never really able. I think when Josh McDaniels was there in Mac Jones' rookie year, they did well. And they made the playoffs. But after that, it never really clicked again.

42:30Rich Eisen:So before I let you go here, knowing what you know about quarterbacking, and if you have to put your marker on any quarterback 25 and younger in the National Football League right now, knowing what you know about quarterbacking, makeups of quarterbacks, where they currently are, what they've done so far. You put your mark on this person to win multiple Super Bowls. Multiple Super Bowls. Multiple Super Bowls. You're like, I'm going to put my Seth Wickersham.

43:00Seth Wickersham:I'm going to go with J.J.

43:02Rich Eisen:How about that? McCarthy? Yeah. Come on. Don't just say that. You don't need to. Give him what he wants. Kevin O 'Connell told me. You really would do that over Jaden Daniels, for instance. C.J. Stroud is another. Does Hurts count? Hurts would. I mean, how old is Hertz?

43:18Seth Wickersham:Well, Hertz, you know, Hertz would be up there. I think Hertz was like, yeah. 27. He's a little outside of the age range, but I will say this. I met with Kevin O 'Connell for the book, and he, of course, was a great college quarterback, four-year starter at San Diego State, and he got drafted by the Patriots, thought he'd learn from Brady and then take that knowledge elsewhere. And, you know, his career essentially ended, and we talked a lot about those scars and how that informs how he coaches quarterbacks and looks at them. And one of the things that he did was when he was getting these tryouts with teams, he would try to make the wow throw the John Elway throw and you know knock the coaching staff over with it and he kept getting cut and he realized later he went back and watched all of Brady's game-winning drives and Super Bowls and big games Montana's Elway's and what stood out was how mundane they were like they looked like they were doing spring practice even though the stakes couldn't have been higher and he realized that like quarterbacking is really about you know doing the obvious thing that's right in front of you at the highest level you possibly can and i think that like that to me there's a reason why caleb williams really liked kevin o 'connell as you know i wrote about is that like he just knows how to speak quarterback and i think that they're

44:27Rich Eisen:going to be really successful so you're not just saying jj mccarthy because i'm a michigan guy or or and or but but you see what his talent is and it's in the hands of kevin o 'connell and that That is why you're saying what you're saying.

44:41Seth Wickersham:The theme of our segment, context matters.

44:45Rich Eisen:So does this book, American Kings, a biography of the quarterback. Get it wherever your book can be acquired. Seth, you now know where the studio is. I love it. I now see that you're a whole human. Come anytime. You're here in Los Angeles, will you please? Thanks, man. Anytime. That's Seth Wickersham right here from ESPN. Get the book.

45:06Rich Eisen:Oh, oh, oh, O 'Reilly. Check engine, ABS, or maintenance light on. Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O 'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. Ask for O 'Reilly Veriscan today. Oh, oh, oh, O 'Reilly. Auto Parts.

45:39Rich Eisen:Rich Eisen here. Running a small business means every hire matters. A bad hire costs time and money, but the right one helps your business grow. The challenge? Finding that person without sorting through resumes. That's where LinkedIn Hiring Pro comes in. It screens candidates so you can focus on conversations with qualified talent. With Hiring Pro, you can hire with confidence and build the team you need. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash Eisen. Terms and conditions apply.

46:12Rich Eisen:All right, first one up, Brian Cranston. True or false, one of your first gigs was a Preparation H commercial. True or false? Oh, come on.

46:20Seth Wickersham:That is false. Oh, gosh.

46:24Rich Eisen:Look at that photo. That's very Roy Scheider. Isn't it? Yeah. Don't I think right there?

46:28Seth Wickersham:If I could pick it? Roy Scheider is really good.

46:30Rich Eisen:What do you think? Or what's that talk show host who had those big red glasses? What's her name? Sally Jesse Ruffio. Sally Jesse Ruffio. Sally Jesse Ruffio. Good call. Good call. Good call. So what happened? This is truly wonderful. It's called a job, Rich. I know you haven't been job hunting in a while. Mr. Employment, steady employment guy. Well, you're not, you know, actors, you gotta say yes. Well, this was, at least I was a spokesperson. I wasn't afflicted by hemorrhoids. You know what? Well, in real life I am, but not in. If I was afflicted, I would trust you to give me the right advice.

47:11Rich Eisen:I would put that ointment on and go, there we go. Let's take care of this little problem. I didn't mean the administering of the operation. I just meant the advice of, like, you should try. I'm a full-service spokesperson. We don't just stop with talking about it. Come on. Is that why you brought your alcohol as well? I bring my alcohol so I can soak my face. It kills. It just kills everything. True or false, you did your own stunts on Malcolm in the Middle, including wearing a suit of 10 ,000 live bees. That also is false. That never happened. Oh, God. You keep on having the photo pictures. But those are real?

47:57Rich Eisen:Those are real. That's 10 ,000. I forget how many counts it was. But they would extract the pheromones from the queen and they would put the droplets all over me wherever they wanted the bees to go. Then they'd open up the traveling chutes and the bees would just start swarming. And they swarm forever. In order for them to stay off my face so the camera could recognize me, you take a little of the bug spray off or whatever. and they put it all over my face there so that they would crawl, oh, no, I don't want that, and they'd get off it. But it was about two inches thick of bees. So I got stung once in the shoulder when they were getting them off.

48:45Rich Eisen:But once when I was doing that whole thing and I had to stand very still, one got between my legs and I got stung. And I said, oh, I think I got stung. because when you're wearing bees, Rich, the chance of being stung is pretty high. Yes. You're wearing bees, for God's sake. So, but what I realized is that the sting of a bee is not really painful. It is mostly the shock that gets you. You're, wow, geez, something just... But when you're wearing bees and you get stung, it was literally... I think I... Did I get stung? I did get stung and the beekeeper comes over ready with a little credit card thing and a thing to scoop it out.

49:34Rich Eisen:He goes, where is it? I go, in my scrotum. And he goes, can't help you. That's exactly what it is. Can't help you.

49:47Rich Eisen:Are there any more delightful humans than Brian Cranston on planet Earth?

49:51Seth Wickersham:I was just going to say, is he the greatest guest we've ever had? He's close to it, man.

49:56Rich Eisen:He's up there, man. Oh, as delightful as they come back on the Rich Eisen Show radio network. Michael in New Jersey. Let's get R.E.S. Consulting here. What's up, Michael in New Jersey? What's going on? Hey, Rich. How are you? How can we help, Michael? So I am currently engaged to my beautiful fiance. Congratulations. You and Travis Kelsey. Thank you. Thank you. Very nice. Okay. Thank you. No applause. Just throw money, please. but I'm going to have my bachelor party next month. I'm a big New York Giants fan, and we're going to go to the week four L.A. Chargers game. So my question to you guys, and it's for all of you, is number one, who's going to be my starting quarterback for the Giants that week for week four, and number two, if you have to pick any regular season game to have your bachelor party at, which would you choose and why?

50:50Okay.

50:51Rich Eisen:Russell Wilson will be the starter. Agreed. Barring injury. And number two, any game in Vegas, right? Because, I mean, once you're done, you can do – where are you going to go after the game, man? I mean, you're going to – You're going to go to AC, but that's still 90 minutes. That's too far. Too far. That's too far. Bachelor party at a football game, huh? That's an interesting choice. Michael? Yeah, I'm not a big – fan of what you typically expect from a bachelor party. All right. What's weird about that? Guys loving football? That makes total sense to me. Is your fiancé into football at all?

51:34Rich Eisen:Her football allegiance is contingent on the Taylor Swift situation. Ah, right. Meaning what? She's a Chiefs fan? Is that what you're saying now? She's now a Chiefs fan? She likes it. Chiefs. She unfortunately likes Jason a little more, which means she leans a little more towards the Eagles. We're working on it. Week three, Giants attract, baby. Michael in New Jersey, opposites attract. Well done. Right here on the Rich Eisen show. Okay, there he goes. The thing is, week three, you get the Chiefs play the Giants. Maybe he should try to...

52:10Seth Wickersham:The Giants play in Vegas at the end of the year.

52:14Rich Eisen:Let's go. But clearly he's not one of those guys that wants to go to Vegas and do stupid stuff and what happens there stays there. I get it. I'm just saying if his girl likes the Chiefs, he can finagle something there. Yeah. I don't know. I just think she's interested in Taylor Swift, which I totally understand. Giants at the Chiefs in October. Okay. How would you have answered that question?

52:36Seth Wickersham:You know, I do like the things that go on in Las Vegas. So, you know, if I'm a Giants fan, maybe I push this to the end of the year, maybe kind of a New Year's situation.

52:50Rich Eisen:Where was your bachelor party, Mike? I didn't have one. You didn't have one? What? No. What do you mean no? No. I had a shotgun wedding, Rich. We went to the jabroni place in wherever city it is here and got married in front of a... Yeah, it was a joke. The wedding was a joke. It was a joke for me. How did you term the marriage? It was a joke. And then the post was a joke. getting thrown at an Emmy thrown at me and almost just like killing me. That was a joke. It was actually funny as hell, but it was a joke. I was going to say those Emmys are heavy, man. Which Emmy did she throw at you? Great question.

53:25Rich Eisen:My second one. Which was for what? I think it was at NFL on Fox. Okay, very good. I'm still laughing every time. I'm glad you made up for it. No, I didn't. You know, Bob Sackett was at my bachelor party. Where was yours, Richard? Las Vegas, Nevada. See? That's the place. Las Vegas, Nevada. Yep. That's all I'm going to have to say about that. What are you laughing about, Feli? Feli. Feli off in the distance. Feli's back here. I love it. I love it, Feli. That's it. Man, I... We have a list of all of our fantasy team names. They're good. Should we go over this with Adam Ray? I think we should. Paul Rudd's going to join us next Tuesday to pick our team name.

54:11Rich Eisen:These are the selects. We need to cut this down to eight for Paul. That's going to be tough. Yeah. They're all really good. You guys got a lot of good ones. They're all really good. Oh, my God. So the rejected ones we'll post, and if people want to use them, they can use them. Oh, you just added Alaska's Uncle Rico.

54:27Seth Wickersham:I got to say, great late entry by Seth Wickersham. Alaska's Uncle Rico.

54:32Rich Eisen:Yeah, because I think the window's got to close today so Smich can get the avatars ready for next Tuesday because this is a lot of work. Yeah. So, Smich, we're going to get this information to you by the end of the day. Before the end of the day. Okay. A lot of good ones on there. Finger gunned by Costner. It's pretty strong. That's another great one. It's pretty strong. It's just like. He's telling us to break. It's really strong. This is good stuff. This is good stuff.

55:05Rich Eisen:Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for$15 a month is back. so I thought it would be fun if we made$15 bills but it turns out that's very illegal so there goes my big idea for the commercial give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch upfront payment of$45 for 3 months $90 for 6 months or$180 for 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy see terms

From the publisher

Pro Football Hall of Famer Michael Irvin and Rich discuss the stunning behind-the-scenes revelations in Netflix’s ‘America’s Team: The Gambler and His Cowboys’ documentary series, why Jerry Jones and Micah Parsons’ contract extension talks have soured and what it will take to mend fences and get a new deal done.

ESPN’s Seth Wickersham joins Rich in-studio to discuss Caleb Williams’ progress as QB so far under new Chicago Bears head coach Ben Johnson after a disastrous rookie season outlined in his new ‘American Kings: a Biography of the Quarterback’ book, how come the NFL doesn’t invest more money into developing QBs, why Minnesota Vikings QB JJ McCarthy could win multiple Super Bowls when his career is all said and done, and more.

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