Can Jets and Giants Fans Glean Hope from the Knicks’ Championship Run?

17:26Danny Heifetz:Are you sitting down? I'm a little afraid for what's going to happen to your blood flow here. Can I read you something about Kenyon Sadiq? Please do, please do. All right, control yourself. But Kenyon Sadiq, your tight end, ran the same 40-yard dash as Jonathan Taylor. Kenyon Sadiq had the same broad jump as Des Bryant. His vertical jump at the combine was higher than Vince Carter's at the NBA Combine. He's the same height as Julio Jones. He's the same weight as LeGarrette Blount, and he has the same top speed in his 40-yard dash as Jameer Gibbs.

17:53Sean Fennessey:Okay. I'll be totally honest with you. I wasn't crazy about this pick, and I don't care about measurables. Those things are not interesting to me.

18:05Danny Heifetz:I'm glad you said that because I feel that way too, and I didn't want to be a young yucker, but I agree. I'm like, oh, cool. Why'd you average 40 yards a game?

18:11Sean Fennessey:Yeah. I think he makes more sense given the weapons that the team has. I think if this was, if he were the 16 pick to a team that did not have a top 10 or top 15 wide receiver and did not have a top 10 or top 15 running back, it would be a little bit harder to accept. What I think you can see now is that like, if you use him a little bit more like the HVAC fashion or a little bit more of a gadget player, that he's going to be an interesting force, but he's not going to be a 90 catch 1200 yard kind of tight end. He's not that kind of player. Also, he has a little bit of a drop problem, which I think is a little bit under-discussed.

18:47Sean Fennessey:I think it was a really bold move. The David Bailey move was a very safe move, and I think they kind of made up for it by picking Cooper, who feels like a very competent, very clear, somewhere between a two and a three. And I like the formulation of the three of those guys and a couple of other picks that they made. Individually, I think there's kind of question marks about all three of them. I was just talking with a fellow, a friend who's an Eagles fan, and the Eagles selected Makai Lemon. And I wonder if we'll look back five years from now and say, they got a little cute with Kenyon Sadiq, and they should have just taken Makai Lemon there and figured out something else at 30.

19:23Sean Fennessey:But who knows? It could be really fascinating.

19:27Danny Heifetz:I tend to agree. Actually, it's funny. I know I was trying to gas you up with the measurables, but that is actually how I feel deep down too, is the tight end. There are so many tight ends that have been super athletic that haven't done a ton, you know what I mean? And you look back at, I mean, man, Noah Fant out of Iowa was an unbelievable athlete. OJ Howard, who even before his Achilles injuries, did very little. Like a lot of guys, tight end also takes a long time to develop. Even the last years, there's been some trends of elite guys doing really well. It takes a while to pop. But I agree.

19:51Danny Heifetz:I think I agree with you about the Makai Lemon thing. But again, I think that speaks to my concern to your point is Woody Johnson seems to have just gone into the offense and said, I don't want to do what Tanner Engstrand's doing. They fired Tanner Engstrand three weeks after the season ends, offensive coordinator. And they're like, I want Frank Reich two years out of the NFL. So that's really the concern is the snip snap, you know, Michael Scott, like the emotional toll of what are we doing on offense? And, you know, ironically, a perfect example of this is what happens to a guy like Mozzie Smith, who was now on the Jets, who is the defensive tackle, the Cowboys.

20:21Danny Heifetz:And he got flip-flopped in the Quinn and Williams trade where he's the failed version of Quinn and Williams. And now Mozzie Smith is there. And he was a crazy athletic defensive tackle at Michigan. And, you know, he didn't reach his potential. Part of that's always on the player. Part of that's on Dallas. We're like, you're going to be a nose guard. Give me a three tech, which means gain 20 pounds, lose 20 pounds, gain 20 pounds as new defensive coordinators come in and have different visions. Do you know how hard it is to be an NFL player and gain 20 pounds when you're at like 3 % body fat? Like it is, they are eating all, like it's a lot of work.

20:52Danny Heifetz:And so that's the concern with all these players. It's not just, oh, you have to learn a new system. You have to learn a new language and sculpt your body to a different job. Like it's very hard and it takes a toll. So that is my concern. and also we've gone too far into the Jets without mentioning to your point, is not just Makai Lemon at that pick, but the Jets hired Aaron Glenn, who was a cornerback for the Jets, a cornerback. The Jets were the first team to go an entire season without an interception, on record since the forward pass was invented, which was before World War II.

21:22Sean Fennessey:Yeah, it's not good. And they didn't take a cornerback in the first round. You know what, though? Again, I was concerned about this until they selected D 'Angelo Pons. And I genuinely just feel like I don't know anything about football. Danny, I'm an idiot. I'm just a fan. I'm just a guy talking to you. Join the club. I'm just a dude. But I watched D 'Angelo Pons play a lot last season. He obviously had a very memorable moment in the Oregon game in which he picked off the QB in the first play of the game.

21:54Danny Heifetz:He sent Dante Moore back to school. That's why he's not on the Jets.

21:57Sean Fennessey:He sent Dante Moore back. and obviously D 'Angelo Pons' comp literally during the draft was Aaron Glenn. And in the same way that Aaron Cooper just kind of plays like a dog, Pons has the same reputation. And so I'm just going in, assuming that D 'Angelo Pons, whether he's playing out of the slot or whether he's playing on the edge, he's going to have four interceptions. I just know it. I just know it.

22:22Danny Heifetz:I agree. I'm such a sucker for small guys who play huge, and I hate big players who play small. And Pons is such a great player. Like he's just, he's just, the way he carries himself is unbelievable in a football field. I'm not saying he's Honey Badger or anything, but he just pops off the screen and you would never think he's, I would never have noticed how small he is. Like the listed measurables surprised me when I first discovered them because the way he plays, he plays so big and explosive. I love that the Jets took him. I'm also, whether it works or not, I'm such a sucker for bad teams importing great culture by just picking off national champs.

22:55Danny Heifetz:I love that they're just like, Omar Cooper, Indiana, D 'Angelo Pons, Indiana, come on down. I like when they're like, well, we don't really have a culture, so let's just try to get a bunch of guys who play like grown-ass pros. And I don't think it's a bad strategy because, again, we don't have to go to NIL and everything about Indiana, but Indiana played like a professional team because they're a professional team. The average age of Indiana's starters was 23. The average age of the Green Bay Packers last year was 25. They are professional players. So I like that they brought these guys in.

23:22Sean Fennessey:I agree. I feel like we've been watching the Eagles for five straight years just draft guys from Georgia every year, and it seems to be working.

23:27Danny Heifetz:Dude, you know that bell curve meme? We always talk about it on the fantasy football show, but it's like the idiot thinks something, and then the smart people in the middle just kind of get caught up, and then the smartest people in the world kind of have the same simple takes as the moron, and they're like, the dumbest thing you could possibly think is, wow, this Georgia team's the best defense I've ever seen. Just take them. And then you go all the way through, and Howie Roseman's just sitting there, and everyone's just like glazing Howie Roseman all the time, and he's like, I don't just get to take half the best defense in college football history.

23:52Danny Heifetz:How about that?

23:52Sean Fennessey:Seems like a really good strategy. I'm glad that my team is finally coming around to it. I share some of the same concerns about David Bailey that you cited earlier. And I do think that the defense is a real work in progress. And if you want to say this team is really going to struggle this year, I think it's because they're like half of a developed defense. And a lot of the free agent signings that they made, especially players along the defensive line, are very stopgap kind of players because it was such a miserable changeover from the solid administration to Glenn. And I think Glenn and Co assumed that they could convert a lot of Salah's.

24:28Sean Fennessey:Salah looks for a very specific kind of player. The person who probably suffered the most in the transition was Jamie Sherwood, who had just signed a big extension to play linebacker and was truly terrible last year. It's a bad year. I mean, he had to have been among the bottom 20 linebackers in the sport. And under Salah, he was a really exciting young player. so I think that they're still and you know their linebacker room is very thin at the moment they have young corners they have handsy corners who tend to make a lot of mistakes their safety the safety is a position that they have struggled to fill for years and there's a little bit of a confusion at least among the fan base right now where they acquired Minka Fitzpatrick in the offseason but Minka Fitzpatrick in his first interview since being acquired said I plan to play mostly out of the slot and fans were like no you're Minka Fitzpatrick all pro safety we've been needing a safety a competent free safety for 10 years why are you playing in the slot we already have three slot corners so I think that makes sense because Minka

25:32Danny Heifetz:I know what you mean you do have three slot corners but I think the thing is it's Minka you want him to be able to make plays near the line of scrimmage attack on screens you want him to be able to be a blitzer you want him to be able to make impactful stuff near the line he's just he's an he's a very gifted tackler. He's a great force fumble guy. And so I think that's what you need. You need explosive plays on defense too. And it's just easier for him to be impacting stuff around the line of scrimmage.

25:57Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I'm just, I'm generally concerned that they're going to give up a lot of points. But maybe they'll score a lot of points.

26:05Danny Heifetz:Maybe. Well, on that note, and I think this is the way it ended with the Jets, because I won't talk about the Giants, but to that point, just to hammer home the fact of how bad the Jets and Giants have been. I just, I mean, maybe this is obvious, to people, but I just wanted to like actually illustrate that it's not hyperbole. The last 10 years, the last 10 seasons, the Giants and Jets are dead last in the following categories. And when I say that, I don't mean one or the other. I mean, they are both 31st and 32nd in the following categories. Both teams, wins, winning percentage, yards, points, touchdowns, point margin, and they both are dead last in the amount of game time they've spent winning, and they both are first and second most amount of game time spent losing, which is basically every single thing that matters in a football game.

27:00Danny Heifetz:They are the worst teams of the last 10 years, starting with points and touchdowns. And that is really the theme. Danny Kelly jokes about it with me all the time. The Jets and Giants need to start scoring touchdowns. They are horrible at it.

27:13Sean Fennessey:I couldn't agree more. I'm eager to hear your perspective on this as a Giants fan. Because again, like your agony, it's been 10 years, but to my mind, it doesn't feel that way. And I think maybe even to a slightly more casual NFL fan, you maybe don't realize that things have been as bad for the Giants as they have been over this period of time. And you're at the dawning of a new era. You have a new head coach. You have an exciting young quarterback. You have a lot to look forward to. And yet, I don't know what it's like. I don't think Vegas thinks the Giants are going to be that great. Like, how are you feeling?

27:47Sean Fennessey:So I'll tell you. I am one of Mochanui.

27:50Danny Heifetz:On July 10th.

27:52Sean Fennessey:Maui, you will board my boat and restore the heart of Te Fiti.

27:55Danny Heifetz:And here we go. The journey begins.

27:58Sean Fennessey:See her light up the night in the sea. She calls me.

28:03Danny Heifetz:The ocean chose you.

28:05Sean Fennessey:Let's go save the world.

28:06Danny Heifetz:I got your back, Chosen One. Disney's Moana.

28:11Sean Fennessey:Boats, look. His name is Hey Hey.

28:12Danny Heifetz:His name is Yum Yum. When he goes in my tum-tum. Game theaters July 10th. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested. How I'm feeling right after this break. Giants time. I agree with what you're saying, Sean. I think it's a sneaky secret to some that the Giants have been just as bad as the Jets, if not worse, over the last 10 years. I think that the Giants winning that one playoff game with Daniel Jones really hides the stench of it. But, I mean, the Giants have a worse record than like, I mean, the Jaguars are better now than like the Jaguars who had number one picks two years in a row. Like worse than the Cleveland Browns or the Giants.

28:46Danny Heifetz:Worse than the Cardinals, the Panthers, some of the worst teams. The Giants have been absolutely abysmal. I guess, I don't even know where to begin. Sometimes like when you're talking about your own team, you're so inside the bottle, you can't read the label. But I will just say this. I'm both, like everyone else, so excited about the John Harbaugh hire. I am also so dubious of the fact that everyone unanimously thinks it's a good idea. It really sets my radar off. And I have to tell you, I will say, as much as I'm happy that John Harbaugh is cleansing the team of some stench, the idea that people are saying the Giants will be this year's Patriots flabbergasts me.

29:22Danny Heifetz:And I am not really, I am optimistic about the Giants' future. I think Jackson Darts is a good quarterback. I don't think the Giants will be some great team this year, even though they have a lot of talent in places. Like I'm pretty concerned about this year's team, to be honest.

29:34Sean Fennessey:Yeah, I think it's interesting to compare them to the Jets because I think the Jets have a lot of promise. There's a lot of like potential excitement. Whereas I do think that most fans see the Giants as being extremely talented, that there are legitimately good players on the team who we know can succeed. I would like to hear specifically whether or not you fully, truly, deeply, madly believe Jackson Dart is not only the answer, but is the kind of quarterback who will play 15, 16, 17 games in a season and lead your team for the next decade to multiple playoff appearances.

30:11Danny Heifetz:That depends on the same way. If Jackson Dart, can he play 15, 17 games in a season? It's the same. Jackson Dart is why insurance companies charge a lot for men under 25 to drive a car. He plays like he has absolutely no sense of self-preservation. And I think, frankly, it's why Brian Dable got fired. I know Brian Dable, everyone, you know, they had a lot of blown leads, which also, funnily enough, you know why Ravens fans are not upset to see John Harbaugh go? A lot of blown leads. It's true. But Brian, in my mind, Brian Dable deserved to be fired because of the recklessness with which he encouraged Jackson Dart to play.

30:45Danny Heifetz:And I, anyone, I mean, Jackson Dart, just so you understand, he played 12 games last year. He had five concussion checks, like five blue tent checks in 12 games. But to me, what was infuriating is Brian Dable wanted to be seen as a smart guy. And he was actually very emotional. It's like the anti-Dane Campbell. Dan Campbell wants to be seen as emotional. Very level-headed and calm. Dan Campbell is on the sideline. Brian Dable wanted to be seen as a genius. Absolute hothead on the sideline, can't control himself. And I think it's exemplified by the play calling. The two plays that I thought Brian Dable should be fired for.

31:15Danny Heifetz:Three, really. 49ers game. Not that it matters, but I think it just represents how Jackson Dart was being encouraged to play. Jackson Dart against the 49ers. The Giants were down, I believe it was 17 points with 90 seconds left. And Jackson Dart got crushed throwing a ball into the end zone. But the other one, and the point where I was like, Dable can go, was the Giants are down 25 points to the Eagles with three minutes to go. 25 points is a four-possession game. It's a four-possession game with three minutes to go. And Jackson Dart was called for quarterback keeper at the goal line, and he got crushed by Jeremiah Trotter, and he limped off.

31:47Danny Heifetz:And I'm like, I don't think there would have ever been an example of a team winning in the situation the Giants were in. And Dable's, it's not an option, not a read option, quarterback keeper. Brian, like it's not a video game. And all that's to say, was Jackson Dart reckless? Yes. Was Brian Dable encouraging it to save his own job? Absolutely. And so that is John Harbaugh's job is to keep Jackson Dart third and three run for it. Third and three down 30 points slide because people make too much of size. Bryce Young or Anthony Richardson, however big you are, what gets you hurt is taking hits and you just need to not take hits.

32:20Danny Heifetz:You need to slide and run out of bounds and he played baseball. So I think he can, I think his deep at his accuracy is incredible. I mean, the, the, the, if you look at, I mean, some of these stats are new, but Jackson dart had the best on target rate for any quarterback as a rookie since Joe burrow, like six years ago. So I'm very bullish about him. I'm very concerned with the giants pass catchers. I'm worried that this is going to be quietly like after the dolphins who were an abomination like the worst pass catching group in the NFL and I'm concerned what that's going to do the offense to be honest I don't you didn't kind of still didn't really answer my question

32:52Sean Fennessey:like he's talented which was something we know about the team but is he the is he the part five years from now is he the quarterback of the Giants is maybe a more pertinent question and I think yes you can't say it depends like you think he is I think yes I think yes I think John Harbaugh is

33:10Danny Heifetz:more likely to disappoint than Jackson Dart I'll put it that way I think Jackson Dart's talented I'm worried about John Harbaugh. I think that Ravens fans were not upset to see John Harbaugh go. And I think that I agree with what you're saying. The question I feel like what you're asking is, is Jackson Dart going to let Giants fans down? I think John Harbaugh is going to let Giants fans down and Jackson Dart might outlive John Harbaugh. To be clear, I would love nothing more in the world than John Harbaugh to be exactly as good as we all thought he should be. I wanted him to be hired. I wanted Jackson, like I'm excited that Jackson Dart's the quarterback.

33:38Danny Heifetz:I am very concerned that some of the things Harbaugh's doing, I think Harbaugh's plan A was good, which was to hire Todd Monkhan as the offensive coordinator, who reinvigorated Lamar Jackson as an MVP candidate after Greg Roman and the offensive coordinator for Lamar really let Lamar stagnate. And a lot of the failure for Lamar to play in the playoffs was an inability for the Ravens to react to modern blitz packages because Greg Roman doesn't have modern passing game. The Giants were going to hire Todd Monkhan as their coordinator. You know who they got instead because the Browns hired Monkhan as the coordinator?

34:07Danny Heifetz:Now they have Greg Roman on the Giants' offensive staff. and they have Matt Nagy also on the Giants offensive staff. Matt Nagy is Andy Reid's longtime guy who was cast aside by Andy Reid because it was not working. Greg Roman has worked for John or Jim Harbaugh for like 20 years and Jim Harbaugh had to let him go because he wasn't working for Herbert. That is two guys, longtime collaborators, were like, you know what? It's best to like go our separate ways. And they're both on the Giants staff. These guys are both years and years behind the modern NFL. I'm really concerned about the Giants. I'm really concerned because all these guys can't really receivers and tight ends can't get open but they can't block and everything is going toward your pass your receivers being able to block and the Giants have nobody so if Malik Nabors again we're burying the lead Malik Nabors coming off an ACL and meniscus tear is very behind schedule he was supposed to be ready for July now he might not be ready for September and if he can't play or he's not 100 % the Giants pass the game like straight up sucks and I'm very concerned about their outfits

35:04Sean Fennessey:who are the pass catchers?

35:08Danny Heifetz:I am so glad you asked. So let's just say Malik Neighbors is not available for week one. The players that Giants are going to look at starting is going to be Darius Slayton, who the team has been trying to get rid of for seven of the last eight years, basically. And then it's Calvin Austin, who was exiled to Siberia by Aaron Rodgers last year. Darnell Mooney, who could not stay in the Falcons lineup for health and other reasons. Malachi Fields, who is a rookie out of Notre Dame and frankly like a Matt Collins blocking type. And Juju Smith-Schuster, who, as Craig says, is the oldest 29-year-old man on earth.

35:41Sean Fennessey:Yeah, he's been passed around a bit, Juju.

35:43Danny Heifetz:And then the tight ends are guys who can't, like Isaiah Likely, who they brought in from Baltimore, is a great receiver, but he's not a blocker. So you look around and it's like Calvin Austin's like, he cannot block. Like Darius Slayton, I don't think he's the greatest blocker. Darnell Mooney cannot block. Their tight ends can't block. And I'm like, this is not a modern game. This is like what was winning five or six years ago. And then they have, I mean, they went ahead and signed Patrick Ricard, who's like the fullback from the Ravens days four years ago. I don't know. this is just a bunch of mishmash pieces.

36:08Danny Heifetz:I don't see how they work in a modern offense. I'm concerned about these guys' ability to handle Vic Fangio and the Eagles. I don't really see how they're going to win.

36:15Sean Fennessey:It reminds me a little bit of what James Gunn's trying to do with the DC Universe with films. It's like, you know, it worked for Marvel 10 years ago. It was really effective. Exactly. Let's try to do it again. Then you get Supergirl. That's exactly how I feel with the DC Universe.

36:30Danny Heifetz:And it's like, everyone's kind of done with this, man. It's actually been done for a few years. You didn't even notice.

36:34Sean Fennessey:I feel like the bright side, Danny, is one of the key things that it seems like Harbaugh was able to do was that he was able to coach Lamar Jackson to a place where he would protect himself. Because he could have been, if coached differently, a really reckless player who experienced a lot of concussions and leg injuries, and especially given his talents athletically, he's turned into such an incredible force in terms of accuracy, in terms of decision making. and it does seem like that's maybe the final piece of the puzzle for dart in terms of protecting his body not getting injured and making good decisions so you've got that who is the you lost a very

37:13Danny Heifetz:competent wide receiver to free agency who did you lose so Wando Robinson went Brian Dable to Tennessee so one funny thing it's good thing to mention in this Giants Jets episode is that the New York uh guys with the tail between their legs got exiled to Tennessee so Robert Sala takes the Titans head coach job and hires Brian Dable to rehabilitate himself as the offensive coordinator. And they're just like getting the gang back together. And Brian Dable brings in Wando Robinson. They brought in Cordell Flott, like a bunch as cornerback, a bunch of players in the Giants and Robert Sala goes straight up trades to Vandre Sweat, who is not a Sala-esque player from the Titans to the Jets.

37:47Danny Heifetz:He gets back Jermaine Johnson. He brings back all these players. And so they just kind of do a New York fired coaches reunion. John Franklin Myers is back

37:54Sean Fennessey:in Tennessee as well. It's an interesting thing. And it's very similar to what you're describing, this concern with the Giants right now. And I've heard you talk about this over the years, but professional teams are not purely... They're not consulting businesses in which there's meant to bring an objective point of view to every experience to maximize potential for every product. They're people businesses. They're about relationships. They're about people who've known each other and worked together and cross paths. They went to college together. They were assistants together. They rose through the ranks together or players who they worked with, who they want to bring back, who know their system, who know how to implement their system.

38:30Sean Fennessey:And so when you begin to see the sport that way, you understand that that actually explains often the rise and fall of certain strategies. And it's funny that we're going to have three different versions of New York football this year with the Titans. And the Jets opened their season against the Titans, which is going to be a fascinating... Which is fascinating. Maybe revenge game. You know, I barely mentioned Robert Sala. I'm not even sure if Robert Sala got a raw deal. I think he was fired in an untoward way, but he was not a good head coach.

39:01Danny Heifetz:Can I tell you something? I think I'm the last person left. I think Sala was doing a great job for the Jets. And the narrative around, I think it's insane. Again, Robert Sala is a defensive coach who, as the plan outlined by the GM, by Sala, by the owner, Woody Johnson, they were like, well, Aaron Rodgers and Nate Hackett get to just run the offense, and Sala's going to be a head coach defensive guy. Well, who delivered on their end of the bargain? Like, he was fired after a Vikings-London game, which Eric Mangini predicted would happen because Woody Johnson would be his posh British friends as ambassador and be embarrassed and fire him and freak out.

39:34Danny Heifetz:Robert Sala's defenses had given up three touchdowns in the previous three games. And then he was fired. Aaron Rodgers threw a pick six in the game. And then the defensive head coach gets fired in a game where the defense gave up one touchdown and Aaron Rodgers threw a pick six and the defensive coach gets fired. The fact that Aaron Rodgers, like any other coach, if Aaron Rodgers, who insists there's no viable backup, gets Terris' Achilles four snaps into the season. And then the Jets still won like seven games, even though I believe Robert Sala was not allowed to pursue a better backup quarterback.

40:06Danny Heifetz:And they still won seven games. I don't know how many other people could have won seven games with that fucking team. Everywhere he goes, everyone plays better under Sala. The Niners, I don't know. Everywhere he goes, everyone maximized them. That's a job.

40:19Sean Fennessey:Defensively, that's true. I think you can go back two steps. If you go back one further step back, a year and a half prior to that experience that you're describing, Mike LaFleur was fired as the offensive coordinator in a similar fashion of the way that Tanner Engstrom was fired for the failures of Zach Wilson. And Mike LaFleur is now about to be the head coach of the Arizona Cardinals. We'll see how that goes. But he was, he's Matt LaFleur's brother. He's in the McVeigh tree. He's a super gifted offensive mind. He's been an assistant coach for the Rams for the last three years.

40:50Danny Heifetz:And LaFleur is Sala as close as it gets. Like when Sala was fired, he lived in Matt LaFleur's house the rest of the year.

40:55Sean Fennessey:And so moving on from LeFleur at that time, I think led the Jets down a very dark path of not really knowing how to run an organization offensively. And Salah just doesn't do that. So you can give him credit for the things you're giving him credit for. He's a terrific defensive head coach. But that's not your whole job. And, you know, it's an interesting thing. Like, I think Harbaugh is kind of the opposite in terms of how we narrativize what the role of a coach is. I believe Harbaugh's background is as a special teams head coach. That was his job before he was a head coach.

41:23Danny Heifetz:Yeah.

41:23Sean Fennessey:And he is a, you know, he's a CEO type. He is a sort of like see all pieces of the puzzle and understand how they fit together, at least allegedly. That's how he's kind of narrativized as a coach. And there was this expectation with Aaron Glenn that he was going to be a head coach in that model. And now he's being asked to do the thing that Robert Sala was doing, which was coaching the defense primarily and hoping that another grownup will be able to handle the offense. Now it's not Aaron Rodgers and Nate Hackett, two people who I would not describe as grownups. it is Frank Reich, who is a grown-up.

41:55Sean Fennessey:But I don't know. Too grown-up. Who is it? Who's the DC for the Giants this season?

42:00Danny Heifetz:So the defensive coordinator, so it's an interesting thing. So the Giants hired, it's a really, so he actually, it's actually part of the whole swap. It's Denard Wilson, who was, funnily enough, in Tennessee, which is just part of this weird incestual, like Robert Salah's head coach, Dable's the offensive coordinator, and then the Giants hired the defensive coordinator, Denard Wilson. And I think he's quite promising. I really like the system. Again, it's more modern. I like that. It's the exact opposite of, I think, what's happening to the Giants on the offensive side of the ball. I think it's skating to where the puck is heading is a lot of what Denard Wilson's going to be able to do.

42:34Danny Heifetz:I think the Giants edge rusher group under Denard Wilson is like the best it's been since they were winning Super Bowls. I think I'm still a little upset they traded Dexter Lawrence. But I'm excited about what the Giants are going to do at defense. I'm excited to see how it goes. Arville Reese was an absolute coup at the fifth pick. I'm curious how you feel about Bailey versus Arville Reese. I think that was like, I was slacked you out stunned to get Arville Reese. I think, frankly, the other teams happened to just be a little scared of taking him. But I'm over the moon about Arville Reese getting to play for Jernard Wilson.

43:06Danny Heifetz:I think it's going to be fantastic.

43:08Sean Fennessey:I think it's disappointing that the two times the Jets had the number two overall pick this decade, the more or less consensus choices, forget about who they actually selected, But the consensus choices were the players that they selected. And they were evidently flawed players who people didn't feel good about as number two picks in David Bailey and Zach Wilson. That's, that's... And, you know, you can go back and look through the years of the times in which they had had top five picks. And there have been some that have been good and some that have been bad. Mark Sanchez comes to mind. Sam Darnall comes to mind.

43:42Sean Fennessey:Quentin Williams comes to mind. There have been a lot of interesting... You know, the team has been so bad for so long that they're frequently picking at the top of the draft. and I don't ever feel like we get Miles Garrett. You know, there's something like crazy making about never landing that like surefire Aaron Donald style Hall of Fame. Like, well, this guy is just the dude and you've got the number two or number three or number five pick and you get to get the dude.

44:08Danny Heifetz:And how close you come sometimes where it's, you know, the infamous Jets game with Greg Williams where you ended up, you beat the Rams as 18-point underdogs or whatever and played your way out of Trevor Lawrence. And no, it is infuriating when you get a high pick. That's how I felt about the Giants at five, ironically. I was like, oh, they won't get an elite player. And then I think the best player in the whole draft falls to them. So we'll see if he becomes that guy. I think he is. I'm happy he's a linebacker. I don't know how much niche you want to get here, but Arville Reese, there's a whole thing.

44:35Danny Heifetz:Is he an out-rusher? Is he an inside linebacker, outside linebacker? I'm like, he's both. He's an in-and-out. He's trained as an inside linebacker. And I think your best players being in the center of the field is good. I think sometimes you overthink the positional thing. He's a trained linebacker. I mean, there's this guy, Ollie Connolly, who does a great sub-stack called the read optional, which unfortunately to projections, I think it's the best name sub-stack ever. It's read optional for a football sub-stack. But he was trained in the NFL as a linebacker scout. And Ollie Connolly gave out the highest grade he's ever given.

45:08Danny Heifetz:The only grade to a linebacker he's ever given out scouting-wise is higher than Arville Reese was Luke Keeley. He's the only player ever with a higher grade. And that made me feel a little less crazy because I think Arville Reese is more or less like a perfect linebacking prospect who happens to be like in a crazy ceiling pass rusher. But the idea, it's not that different than basketball. It's like, I want someone who can do a little bit of everything. You know what I mean? And I'm so excited to have him, but I'm a little bummed about the Dexter Lawrence thing. It's like, oh, top 10 pick is cool.

45:37Danny Heifetz:And then it's like, well, they traded him for Francis Mallory Nowell, who is a herniated disc and it's going to play right guard. I'm like, well, I kind of want Dexter Lawrence then, but I'm not, you know, that's unpopular.

45:45Sean Fennessey:Yeah, that makes sense. It's the same question that I think Jets fans could ask themselves about whether or not you'd rather have Sauce Gardner over Kenyon Sadiq. I mean, that's really, you know, obviously you'd have to pay Sauce Gardner for the next four seasons if you wanted to do that, but that's effectively, they traded him for that and for, you know, let's just spitball. Are the Colts going to win four games? Are they going to win 11 games? Because that's also, like, this is, The Jets season really hinges on the futures of the Colts and the Cowboys this year as much as it does the players on their team.

46:16Danny Heifetz:This is a good offshoot of a Giants-Jets show to have a Daniel Jones as the fate of the Jets pick. I got to tell you, I am very bearish in the bad way on the Colts this season. I have never since I've been covering, I think this is actually my 10th season, covering the NFL for the Ringer or something like that. I don't think I've ever seen a team more aggressively chase the first 10 weeks of a season. I think it's pathetic, to be honest with you. It's like, I've never, like, just act like you've been there before. They were really good for 10 weeks. And then like, they're like, oh, well then the injuries happened.

46:49Danny Heifetz:I'm like, well, you mortgaged your future for a cornerback who immediately straightened his calf and sauce Garner. But I'm like, bitch, like, oh, well, Daniel Jones got hurt. I'm like, yeah, Daniel Jones has one healthy season in eight years. That's what happens. He has a neck injury. He's had an ACL. He's had, like, literally, Daniel Jones had one healthy season for the Giants ever. And the idea that the Colts, with a year to prepare for what they were doing, Shane Steichen's done an amazing job as a Colts play caller at everything. They have a good, you know, the Colts have good offensive infrastructure, even if they lost Michael Pittman.

47:21Danny Heifetz:But the idea that Daniel Jones, often a killer's recovery, as, frankly, probably the least mobile we'll have ever seen Daniel Jones, is going to be as impactful, I think is a crazy bet. And I think the Texans are a Super Bowl caliber team just on the roller coaster with CJ Stroud. But that's the best defense in the entire AFC. I think Jaguars can get better and not worse. I don't think the Colts are going to compete in that division at all. I think the Colts are a 7-win team or worse. I think the Colts could deliver you a 5-win. I think it's more likely the Jets get a top 5 pick from the Colts or top 6 than it is the Colts make the division around at the playoffs.

47:55Sean Fennessey:It's music to my ears, honestly. From afar, it does feel like there was so much exuberance around the first half of the season with the team last year in the aftermath of the owner's passing and the daughter taking over and she was on the sidelines. And, you know, that can be intoxicating. But, you know, Bill Simmons has talked about this many years, the sort of new owner syndrome. And even though it's in the family that she's making a lot of decisions that seem to be oriented around bringing back Alec Pierce at an insane number, but then you can't bring back Michael Pittman. And then all of a sudden, like, do you even really have the same team that you had last year?

48:25Sean Fennessey:and will your horse running back also be running for 1 ,500 yards again? So like, yeah, in addition to watching Jets games with some interest, I'll be also watching a lot of Colts games. And you know, I'm not the kind of person that would root for like a Dak Prescott injury, but the Cowboys are also a Dak Prescott injury away from potentially having a calamitous season. So like, it's an interesting way to be a fan where you don't really have any faith in where your team is going in any given season. but there are all these tributaries of interest that you can track over time. It's a little bit like having a real life fantasy team right now.

49:01Danny Heifetz:I know what you mean. And also that's the thing is you don't have to get the first pick. Like the reality is just having free dart throws and what will be a very talented draft. And here's the thing. I do think when, and it's always overrated of like, oh, how talented is the draft? And everyone's like, you're listing a lot of names on quarterbacks next year, but no one actually knows if any of them, no one wants to point to the one quarterback. That's great. It's like, well, there's six guys. Quarterback aside though, it's a very deep draft. in a lot of spots. And I will say this, as hard as it is to point to a specific player and tell you their future, I do think in the NFL draft, all sports, the intelligentsia, when they're like, it's a deep draft at a position.

49:36Danny Heifetz:For the most part, people are correct. No one's really sure if Darren Peterson or Aji DeBonta or Cam Boozer would be amazing. But largely speaking, it will be a good draft in the NBA this year because people usually are right about the hit rates on the overall class. I do think just having three dart throws next year, I mean, Aaron Donald was like the 14th pick in the draft or something. You know what I mean? J.J. Watt. T.J. Watt went in the late 20s. Like, just being able to throw darts in a deep draft is really smart. I love what the Jets have done is set themselves up. And frankly, I think the Jets will have a new head coach.

50:06Danny Heifetz:And I think the entire fate of the organization is going to hinge on it. I think Aaron Glenn will get fired at the end of this year. I think the Jets will have a top 10 pick. They might have another one. And then wherever the Cowboys finish, I think the Cowboys win the division. But then I think you'll have a new head coach. And whoever that head coach is, I think will completely decide the future of the team. and it'll be fascinating to see what they do.

50:24Sean Fennessey:Okay, I want to get two predictions from you. One, I want to know what you think the Giants will finish at at the end of the season. And two, I want your prediction for who will be the Jets head coach in 2027, 2028.

50:35Danny Heifetz:Wow. To take those backward, you know, it's funny if the Chargers didn't hire, or sorry, if the Ravens didn't hire Jesse Minter, I would have said Jesse Minter. I would say that the Jets...

50:44Sean Fennessey:I can't do another first-time defensive head coach. I can't do that. Jesse Minter seems really great. Prashula? No.

50:51Danny Heifetz:I think, I wonder if Prashula would have turned down the Jets. You gotta remember, they're gonna have,

50:56Sean Fennessey:this is gonna be a very young offense with a rookie quarterback.

51:01Danny Heifetz:I, well, let me tell you something. If the Titans, shockingly with nine games and they really missed the playoffs and Cam Ward looks amazing, would you hire Brian Dable?

51:09Sean Fennessey:Um, I don't know that, I don't know that Woody Johnson wants the sloppy seconds of the Giants organization. It's the same reason the Giants

51:19Danny Heifetz:and Jets wouldn't trade for the Darnold year. I was always amazed that the Giants never took the same Darnold package. Like the Colts moved down three picks and got three second rounders. I'm like, why did the Giants do that? But they won't work together. I agree with you on that. I think basically, I do think the Jets will be in a position to get a quarterback. I think an interesting wrinkle in the NFL right now is because there's so many new play callers and they're cycling through offensive coordinators, coaches getting fired. What you're ending up with is a lot of play calling former head coaches, probably more than there's been in the past.

51:44Danny Heifetz:You have a lot of, the coaches are calling plays, offensive defense more than ever. And there's kind of hiring a former head coach to handle the other side of the ball. He's Ben Johnson, calls plays, does run game installations. But Dennis Allen, who was a somewhat hated coach of the Saints, he does defense. That model's everywhere. Like Robert Solomon wants to run the defense. Cool. Brian Dable, he'll just run the offense like a head coach. And so I think that will probably be the answer is it's, you will probably have two head coaches on staff. One was a head coach and your offensive coordinator is a head coach.

52:12Danny Heifetz:And I think the idea being, well, we kind of ran out of offensive minds to be the head coach. So we'll hire a defensive one and you have a former head coach try to get a second job. And the idea is, well, what if he leaves and the quarterback is so good that the guy leaves? And I think the answer is that's a great problem. Like if you're in Tennessee and Cam Ward plays so well this year that Brian Dable leaves, what a great problem to have. And I think that is probably the most likely answer for the Jets is the defensive minds are more available because frankly, the NFL over-indexed on offensive coaches, we're running out of guys.

52:42Danny Heifetz:Like the defensive guys adapting to them are the guys at the forefront of the league. And like, you'll probably have to settle for that.

52:48Sean Fennessey:I can't do that again.

52:52Sean Fennessey:25 years. You'll see. The one time. I don't know if I can accept that. Okay, how do you think the Giants are going to do?

53:02Danny Heifetz:I think, you know, happiness is just expectations minus reality. I think it depends on expectations. If people think they're going to be the Patriots from last year again, no chance. Like the Patriots, an 80-1 Super Bowl favorite who rode the easiest schedule ever to the Super Bowl, no fucking chance. I think the Giants would be incredibly fortunate to make the playoffs, and that would be really cool, and it would require the Eagles imploding or Dallas to really underperform, and it's possible. But the Giants have a... The funny thing about the Patriots comparison, Patriots' schedule was the easiest in the NFL.

53:32Danny Heifetz:The Giants have a hard schedule. The Giants play a lot of incredible teams this year. So I think they'll actually be really good on defense. I think the pass rush is going to be unbelievable and revelatory to have Abdel Carter, Brian Burns, Arvo Reis. I think it's the most athletic front seven in the whole league. I think the offense will be hard to watch. I don't think Malik Nabors is 100%. And you're going to have games out there where it's Calvin Austin and Darius Slayton and Malachi Fields with Isaiah Likely trying to block. And I think it's going to look at how flaccid the Chiefs looked at times with Mahomes the last few years, like how not fun it's been to watch Patrick Mahomes play.

54:07Danny Heifetz:Imagine if that was Jackson Dart. And I think it'll look a lot like that, especially with Cam Scadabo coming off an ankle fracture. Like no one's going to look 100%. And I think it'll be hard to watch on offense. It'll be a little struggle and the defense will be amazing. But I think long-term, I like that Harbaugh ripped out a lot of the favoritism and nepotism ownership had been handing out jobs. So yeah, the last thing I wanted to ask you before we get out of here, Sean, and this is maybe a little corny, maybe we cut this, but we haven't talked about this yet. And I want to ask you, going back to the beginning with watching the Knicks, you had a cool story about what it was like to watch the Knicks championship with your daughter.

54:43Danny Heifetz:And I wanted to ask you about fandom and the difference of handing, how you thought about handing down fandom before the next title and like how it feels to watch. Cause that, you know, obviously I feel like even six months ago, you felt like Jets was a curse, a pox upon your house handed to you unfairly. And I'm curious how it feels to you now to be like a father and passing down sports fandom to your kids. And I'm just curious how you feel about that. And like now that the Knicks have won and hope springs eternal.

55:11Sean Fennessey:It's complicated for a variety of reasons. One, I live in Los Angeles. I don't live in New York. Growing up in New York, even though I was handed these bum teams, I was at Shea Stadium anywhere from five to 30 times a season from the ages of five to 15. And then as an adult, when I was living in New York and working, I had season tickets. So I was just at Mets games all the time. And it was like, it was the same way that you would be handed Catholicism. You know, it was like, do with this what you will, but this is what you got. And you have to come to a real adult age to realize that you can reject this.

55:49Sean Fennessey:But in Los Angeles, we're not going to church every Sunday. And we're certainly not going to Shea Stadium anymore. And so my daughter's going to have some more free will in the decision making. But watching the Knicks together and watching her watch Brunson, that's when something in the amygdala forms. Like it, like something took hold there. And I have the exact same t-shirt that you're wearing right now. And so does my daughter. So we all have, if you root for the Knicks, you, you have to buy that t-shirt. It's, it's a, it's a law. And so, because like you start getting gear and you start building relationships, the players, and you start asking, when does the season start again?

56:29Sean Fennessey:These are things that like my daughter didn't care about six months ago. And she's interested in this NBA is done. It's a done deal. This is a Knicks fan. And I didn't really make that happen. Like the Knicks made that happen. That was the power of this group of guys and how fun the last three months were for us as fans. Football is different because football is... Football feels more like a video game to little kids. And kids respond, I have found, to symbology and logo and those ideas. So my daughter likes watching the Lions. She doesn't know why she likes watching the Lions other than she likes Lions.

57:05Sean Fennessey:And so she's like, are the Lions on on Sunday when I'm watching football? And I'm like, yeah, but we're watching the Jets. And she's like, can you put it on the two box? Like she already knows that we can like split the boxes. She's fucking five. Cause she wants to watch lens. She doesn't know who Jameer Gibbs is. She doesn't really understand that Dan Campbell has that meditative component on the sideline that you described earlier in the episode, but she wants to watch the lions. Am I going to be able to get her off that? Sure. Maybe if Kenyon Sadiq is the most exciting player in the NFL, but if not, that's something that is like a little bit out of my control.

57:37Sean Fennessey:I have the Mets and the Mets is, she is very aware of the team. And because there's so many games, she has a lot of forced exposure to watching the team. That franchise is doing things that I think are like unimaginable. Like their inability to be successful over time, given the resources that they have is absurd.

57:57Danny Heifetz:And it is humbling. It is crazy too, because you're like, well, the richest and I don't know about smartest, but yeah, most, I mean, obviously like Steve Cohen has been successful. in like more or less everything he ever tried in finance. And it's funny to watch someone like that actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and put every conceivable dollar and asset into it. And it just, it's almost worse.

58:17Sean Fennessey:It's hard to fail in the way that they're failing. I mean, this is not a baseball podcast, but I'm trying to figure out Bo Bichette as a human. And like, oh my God, how did this happen? Where he just like immediately, he just immediately became one of a bottom 50 player in Major League Baseball the minute he put on a Mets uniform after being a World Series hero. So anyway, before I digress too hard, the point is that I think you can and should build, if you're a sports fan, build relationships with your children through sports if they show an interest in it. My daughter shows an interest in sports.

58:48Sean Fennessey:Montessori school. Yeah, exactly. Forcing fandom onto your kids is dangerous. It's very similar to forcing Star Wars fandom or Narnia fandom. If you're into any kind of cultural thing, there's downsides. There's heartbreak if they don't, show an affinity for the thing that you care about. On the other hand, independence is something that you want to encourage your child to have. And so when my daughter, whatever, a year and a half ago, was like, I'm a Lions fan. I was like, all right, cool. Well, like, let's try to hold on to that. Show me how much that actually means to you. And there's like, there's a bit of learning that comes with that.

59:23Sean Fennessey:And when the Lions missed the playoffs this past season, I was like, you know what happened to the Lions, right? They failed. This is character building.

59:32Danny Heifetz:Also, when you're like, You share your kids things that you care about and they don't care and it hurts you. I was picturing you showing Paul Thomas Anderson like there's something, like there will be blooders. We're not there yet. We're not there.

59:42Sean Fennessey:But that's going to happen. And if she says no, I'll say great. Then you have your taste. Then you have the things that you care about that matter to you. I think that's an essential component to being a parent is exposing your child to things that you feel are valuable. But if they don't cotton to them, don't continue to push it. Let it go. And if I have to let the vets go, that's probably a good idea.

1:00:01Danny Heifetz:But like the Catholicism thing, Then it comes back around, you see the Knicks and you're like, wow, faith, community. Is this rewarding? Can I be honest with you?

1:00:06Sean Fennessey:I'm also in my 40s having thoughts about faith and religion. And I'm like, is this something that I actually am interested in as I get to this phase of my life? So that's maybe something that can happen for her when it comes to the Jets. You know, she's got to take time away. She's got to spend time with Dan Campbell. She'll eventually return when she's in her 40s and I'll be long dead.

1:00:26Danny Heifetz:Well, there we go. That'll be the title of the episode. The Knicks made Sean believe in God from the Jets and Giants. undo that. There we go. Sean, thank you so much for doing this to me. This was a ton of fun. I appreciate it. Thank you for doing it. I'm really glad we got to catch up. Me too, Danny.

1:00:42Sean Fennessey:You're an elite host. Did you know that? You're one of the most elite hosts.

1:00:50I, yeah.

1:00:51Danny Heifetz:No, all right. Come on, pump yourself up a little bit. You got a big season coming up. I actually, careful, because I'll say something nice and sappy, but that means a lot because I I remember the first time you edited a story I wrote, I was fucking terrified. I remember the days when I was still bouncing you on my knee,

1:01:05Sean Fennessey:like my daughter. And look at you. You're all grown up. I'm proud of you, Danny.

1:01:09Danny Heifetz:For the best part. We'll see. But yeah, Sean, thank you for doing this. It was fun. Thank you to Chris. Thank you to Regina. And thank you to Sheil for taking a vacation for once. And for the record, I think, Sheil, you should keep the beard. I don't care what your family says. I want to keep the vacation beard. There's a beard? I didn't even know there was a beard. Yeah, it's a beard. You got to go to Instagram. Yeah, follow Sheil on Instagram. it's a playoff beard and I think the harder his family pushes him to shave it the more he's going to keep it so I know that feeling

1:01:32Sean Fennessey:that's great well thank you Danny

1:01:35Danny Heifetz:alright thank you everyone check out the projections which is an awesome sub stack Sean just started it's fantastic check out the big picture and then I'm on the Ringer Fantasy Football Show and listen to Sheila on the Ringer NFL Show he's back from vacation so thank you everyone for listening

1:01:56Danny Heifetz:21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.