The Ravens and Bills Deliver an Instant Classic, With Mallory Rubin

0:00Welcome to the Ringer NFL show. I'm your host Sheil Kapadia. Week one is in the books and we just got finished watching what might end up being the game of the year. I say that if you're a not a fan perhaps of the Baltimore Ravens, but we do have a guest today who is a fan of the Baltimore Ravens. I swear we didn't set her up. We thought she would just be a good guest to talk about this game, even if the Ravens won or if the Ravens lost. You know her. Her name is Mallory Rubin. from the ringer. And I could ask you about the game, but as your friend, are you okay? How are you doing? Is my first question.

0:37I think it is fucked up that you asked me to do this podcast with you. Do you not know a single fan of the Buffalo Bills who could have subbed in for me? This is cruel and this is unusual. I was waiting for you to say your mic wasn't working or your wifi was down or you weren't feeling well, or you didn't get the messages, but you know what? I signed on and I saw your face and I knew we're ready to go. So let's take a quick break. We're going to come back. We're going to dive into every aspect. And you know what? If Mal just leaves at some point, then I'll take us home. But we're going to talk about what happened in the Bills' unbelievable comeback over the Baltimore Ravens 41-40.

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3:37All right, we are back on The Ringer Anacostia. Let's start here. Now, obviously, you go wherever you want with this, but when did you start to feel the nerves of, oh my gosh, they might actually blow this game? I never, as a Ravens fan, stopped feeling that way. Okay. Which is like an important thing to understand because even though my team has enjoyed an incredible amount of consistent regular season success, you know, I have grown accustomed to seeing my team in the playoffs. We don't need to talk about what happens there. I have grown accustomed to seeing my team on preseason contender lists, etc.

4:15I've also grown accustomed to seeing the Baltimore Ravens blow games in somewhere between perplexing and astonishing fashion in the fourth quarter. So when they had a 15 point lead in the fourth quarter, I was experiencing a state of supreme dissonance. On the one hand, I'm thinking, what could I talk myself into spending on Super Bowl tickets? Like, what's the responsible thing to do or not do as an adult? You know, at the same time, I can't allow myself to get comfortable. Josh Allen's on the other team. It's the Bills, right? And then when Derrick Henry fumbled, I knew it was over. I knew in my heart and in my soul and in my mind that it was over.

4:56And guess what? It was. That really felt like the moment. I mean, there's 10.03 left and Henry had just broken a 46-yard touchdown. He looked unbelievable tonight. Incredible. Incredible. It puts the Ravens up 40-25. Their defense gets a stop. Matabuke sacks Josh Allen on third down. The Bills are punting. The broadcast is saying fans are leaving the stadium here. And then from there, here's what happened. Ravens go three and out. A little reminder in case you blacked out. Ravens go three and out. Bills have a touchdown drive. Henry fumbles. Bills score again. Ravens go three and out. And Bills drive for the game-winning field goal.

5:37Like all of those things had to have one of those things doesn't happen. Then we are talking about a Ravens victory. All of those things happen and the Ravens lose this. So who's got it? You brought up a good point. This isn't like the only time this has happened. This for this Ravens team, for a team that wins as consistently as they do, they lose stupid games more than any other really good team of what the last five years or so. So in the group chats, when you are thinking, because you have to rip somebody. You can't just be, oh, it's football. Oh, the ball's not round. Weird things happen.

6:11Somebody has to get like, who do you rip for a loss like this or why this keeps happening? Who takes the most heat? Well, typically when things go wrong for the Ravens at the end of a game, it's a combination of factors. But like, even if it varies game to game, it all falls into the same bucket, right? It's going to be either turnovers or penalties or the thing that I would say I spend the most time in my family and friend group chats like lamenting, which there were a couple moments like this tonight, but not really, which was a little bit of a relief to me actually, is like the receding into the shell of predictability and conservative play calling.

6:46That was not as present tonight as I think it has been in some of the other games that have just kind of like popped like a bubble in the air in front of them. So yeah, they committed penalties that I wish they had not committed. I think that the secondary in particular had a poor game. Like this was not the debut from Alexander that I think Ravens fans were looking forward to. Wiggins had a couple bad series late. Obviously, we already talked about the Henry fumble. At the end of the day, for like, what, 85%, 90 % of the game until that sequence you just ran through, the story of this game was the Ravens' offense looked unstoppable, like irrepressible.

7:29You mentioned the first sack of the game on, I think, that was the Bills' ninth drive that the Ravens finally broke through and got a sack. mere moments before that the broadcast uh flashed a graphic plays of 10 plus yards 16 plays of 20 plus yards eight you couldn't stop henry you couldn't stop lamar zay flowers had a huge game and of course then you flash back to last postseason and remember what a big deal it was that he was out that he had the knee entry so it just felt like everything was clicking into place the way it needed to i chalk this one up more to i think it's totally appropriate for people to say, how do the Ravens keep blowing games like this?

8:06I am saying that right now to you and you were saying that to me. This one feels a little bit more like Josh Allen and the Bills are on this like run that feels like the thing that is finally going to happen for them. Like, is this the year that the Bills finally do it? Are they going to win a Super Bowl? Right. And everything from the MVP win over Lamar last year, which I still, I think was not the appropriate outcome of that race. very annoying that Collinsworth at the end of the game was like, oh, wow. That was his last line. I was thinking of you and he said that. Does it? But, you know, you have the momentum of the MVP into the hard knock season where not a single thing happened other than talking about the fact that Josh Allen and the Bills want to win a Super Bowl into this astonishing comeback.

8:52And then you have the Chiefs looking really vulnerable and the rest of the AFC field looking weak. So my takeaway from this game is like the Ravens need to stop losing games like this. But these are still the best two teams in the AFC and the race should still come down to these two teams. I think that's right. That was one of my big takeaways. Honestly, even when I was prepping as the Ravens were up 40-25, that was still my takeaway, that I'm doubling down on my preseason prediction that Chiefs aren't playing in the championship game this year. Now, I'm not overreacting to one game. I understand in December, we can all change our minds.

9:24But as I sit here right now, legitimately, if you were like, Sheil, here's$100. You can put it on any two teams in the AFC. These are the two teams I would put it on. I mean, even tonight in this game, when one of these teams punts, it feels like a miracle. It's like you're so, if you are the fan of the other team and you force them to punt once, you're like, that might be it. That might be all we need to win the game. It's crazy. I mean, you look at it, those Ravens first eight or nine possessions, like you said, they looked unstoppable. I mean, they had a sequence on their second possession where they completed 20 yard pass to Zay Flowers.

9:59Lamar Jackson has an 18 yard run. And then Derrick Henry has a 30 yard run. And in the football, like, you know, conversation or whatever, there's always like, oh, they're a pick your poison offense. Like this is the pick your poison offense where you could just tell Bills are trying to stop the run in the second half. And then they're going play action. And like, there's no one within 10 yards of Zay Flowers. And he goes off. So, yeah, I think these are the two best teams. I think these two quarterbacks are just, you know, they're, they got each other sort of in their rear view mirror or whatever it is.

10:31They're crosshairs and they're going back and forth. And it was incredible to watch. Like, I feel like we are what, how many minutes in? And we haven't even brought up the fact that Josh Allen just, yeah, four for four, 71 yards. It's like, it shouldn't be that easy. They had no timeouts. There was a minute 26 left. They're at their own 20. They have this kicker who they flew in, you know, Matt Prater from the red eye or whatever they were saying. and he was able to get them that close so easily. So yeah, he was incredible as well. I'm with you. These are the two best teams in the AFC. Do you think that the Ravens should have gone for it on fourth?

11:02I was going to ask you. That was on my list. I can't really decide when I think about this because on the one hand, the field position, it's a bold but not indefensible play. You're basically immediately putting the Bills into field goal range if you don't convert, right? However, if you do, the game is you have the game and you should be able to convert in that situation if your offense has done what the Ravens offense has done this night now at the end of the day they didn't go for it they punted and the Bills got back to that position on the field anyway but shoot up the clock ensuring in essence that the Ravens weren't going to get the ball back so then of course it looks like the wrong decision.

11:46In real time, it felt like a little bit of a coin flip. My heart was saying like, I wish they would go for this and just fucking put the nail in the coffin here. That's obviously not what happened. What would you have done? Especially when you think about the history of this franchise and this coach and this quarterback. I mean, I wrote a story like six years ago about how, you know, they're like, they're going for it on fourth down. And to me, if any franchise is going to do that, it would be them. I mean, the situation was 133 left. It's fourth and two or fourth and three, depending on where you look.

12:20They're at their own 39 yard line. So like you said, if you don't get it there, the Bills have to what? Pick up maybe, you know, first down, maybe two for, but you still had three timeouts. You have your timeouts and you have your timeouts to work. And they're not, and the Bills at that point are not incentivized to be really aggressive and like go for a touchdown. They're thinking field goal there. So once they get there, they're going to make you use your timeouts. They're going to kick the field goal and you are going to get the ball back. I haven't done all the math of how much time they would have had at that point.

12:51But I think, yes, at the moment I felt coin flip. I'll be honest. I wasn't like, you got to go for it here. But the more I think about it, if I'm a coach, it's less about like analytical models and it's more about, do I want Lamar Jackson and Derrick Henry deciding the game or do I want to take my chances with Josh Allen not coming through? That's really all it comes down to. I completely agree. That's where I landed too. Like you're running through all of the scenarios. You're trying to crunch the numbers, do the math on the timeouts and the clock. And at the end of the day, it is on, this is a little bit reductive, but it is also as simple as this is a battle between the two great, two of the great players of their generation and the decision put the ball in Josh Allen's hands instead of Lamar Jackson's.

13:34And Lamar didn't get to touch the ball again, which is actually kind of a classic Bills thing. you know you made yourself the bills in that scenario which is just like not a great place to be so that's unfortunate I think like there's still a lot of positives for the team obviously and like even when you look at Mark Andrews did nothing and was not involved in the game which was puzzling to me right he had a target I didn't even think about that until just now had a target oh my gosh Isaiah likely was out he's still recovering from his injury Keaton Mitchell, a lot of excitement and talk about how he was making his return.

14:11He was inactive and Patrick or card, people might be like, okay, like a fullback didn't play who cares. I mean, he's obviously like crucial to their offense and the way that they, uh, manage their personnel and their sets. So this is sort of where I immediately go, right? I'm like, okay, the doinked PAT, what could have been, all right, who wasn't out there? What could have been, what's going to happen when they, they get into a rhythm and start incorporating Andrews and likelies back and they're using the tight ends the way that they want to, etc. This is like the kind of loss, though, that is a little bit outside of what happened in the game.

14:46Because the Ravens are a team for the last few seasons that have been subsumed by the narrative. And this is a narrative fueling game. And so some football fans or analysts are like, that stuff doesn't matter. Momentum isn't real, etc. Right. And then there are some people who think that that feels like the biggest thing in the world. And I don't know, mileage may vary on where you are on any of that. But when these two teams are on a collision course for seeding in the playoffs and then potentially a rematch in the playoffs, and of course, I remember and you remember that when they played in the postseason last year, the Bills won that game because the Ravens had a chance at the end and couldn't do it and turn the ball over.

15:27How is this not going to be on everybody's minds. And so it's just one more, that to me is more unfortunate ultimately than just like starting the season with a loss. The Ravens lost to the Chiefs to start the season last year. They are as accustomed as they are to losing inexplicably, they are as accustomed to working their way back up the standings, right? Like that feels fine to me ultimately. It's more like that this is in the back of everybody's minds then when these teams take the field again. And And that has felt like the insurmountable hurdle in front of this team. So that is really unfortunate.

16:00I think that that is back in the mix from the word go. Yeah, I want to actually ask you more about that in a second. But what do you do tomorrow if someone says Lamar Jackson can't win big games? Someone's going to say, come on, someone's going to say, I should just let the show with it. So this is actually like a little bit pathetic and embarrassing and sad, but I'll admit it anyway. But this is like kind of the nature of fandom, right? These are the conversations you have with yourself. I found myself, I'm not happy that Derrick Henry fumbled. He was having an incredible game. Half of the texts that I sent to my dads and I were like, Derrick Henry is not human.

16:36Yeah. I was so relieved that Lamar wasn't the one who made a mistake. Because I don't think I, it becomes unbearable at a certain point. It just becomes unbearable. So like, I don't think, you have to be, I think, making a pretty bad faith argument to say that this loss was on him. Right? Yeah. That's why it was totally like, someone's going to say it tomorrow. I'm just, I'm trying to prepare you as your friend, but I don't understand. Here's a, I mean, you had the Derrick Henry fumble, you had the defensive lapses. The coach didn't go for it on fourth and two, by the way, before that, you know, that fourth and two sequence first down, they give it to Derrick Henry second down, they go jet sweep to save flowers.

17:16And I don't like to like, you know, analyze every single little play, But it's just like, if I have three chances to get 10 yards and I have Lamar Jackson and Derrick, like I would just want the ball in Lamar Jackson's hands before third down on that possession. So I think if there's one play called to rip, that is the one where I'm like, what are you doing giving, say, Flowers the ball here? That was inexplicable. I'm with you. And like, this wasn't just like a ho-hum Lamar night. Like this was a night where Lamar was generating historic highlight reels. Yeah, we watched him nearly take a like what felt like but was not actually but what felt like a like 97 yard sack and then somehow turn it into a 19 yard rushing gain.

17:59Like one of these incredible, you know, you watch they're going to like print a poster of the squiggly line after because it was so amazing. You're like, how does it how is it possible for a person to do this? Like that's the kind of stuff that he was doing tonight. He had a great night rushing. He had a great night passing and he had a great night making decisions. Right. He was protecting the football and he was consistently making the right read. And so the ball should have been in his hand for that entire sequence. The flowers play there was, I think, confounding. No question. That was absurd.

18:28All right, let's take a break. I want to get back to one thing you said earlier, because I think it applies to both Bills and Ravens fans. And I think it's something a lot of fans who get to this certain point with their team can actually relate to. This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. NFL Sundays are back and you won't want to miss the action. NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV lets you catch every game every Sunday all in one place. And now new users get NFL Sunday Ticket for eight payments of$34.50 per month. Head to youtube.com slash ringer NFL and sign up now. New users pay$276 or eight non-cancellable payments of$34.50 per month.

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20:27All right, we're back on the Ringer NFL show. Yeah, from a Bill's perspective, we already mentioned Josh Allen was incredible, Keon Coleman. I mean they just get contributions from so many guys their offensive line is very good Ed Oliver I still don't know how he trips that ball from Derrick Henry I mean that was like that might I haven't looked at every game of his career that felt like maybe the best game of his career when you just consider the opponent there but you mentioned the thing about Lamar that's so real I can picture you know 15 year old version of myself with Donovan McNabb and it's like I don't want the Eagles to lose because of him because I know what the conversation is going to be after that And with teams like this, like the Ravens and the Bills, we can appreciate they played a great week one game.

21:08There will be someone this week saying, who cares? It doesn't matter till the playoffs. They got to win in the playoffs. And so you get to this certain level with your team and you've been through so many big games with them where those conversations happen, where it's like, yeah, I love watching them for 17 weeks. But I know that what happens in January is going to be the only thing anyone remembers. And I don't want my guy to get criticized. So how do you appreciate sort of the week to week of this season, this game notwithstanding, there will be better games in the months ahead, having that in the back of your head?

21:40Because I think that's something that a lot of fans have to deal with. I mean, you're asking something that like I think transcends consumption or fandom and gets into like the existential nature of like, is it possible for people to be happy? I mean, I get to enjoy the unique pleasure of watching Lamar Jackson play football. Like, what is there to complain about? You know, we've worked together for a few years. We're pals. You know how I am about this stuff. Like, we have had many conversations that were supposed to be hour-long planning meetings that just ended up with me running you through very protracted scenarios where I had talked myself into, like, taking my dad on a 70th birthday trip to an Orioles World Series that never materialized.

22:22Like, I'm always living in the future before we get there. and that's just like part of the pleasure ultimately of rooting for a competitive team is like to get to like talk yourself into maybe delude yourself into thinking they have a chance like that's part of the joy of it at the end of the day when it goes wrong like i guess where i am with it is it can only go wrong this is the twisted warped logic of a person who's watched their team shit the bed in the playoffs a lot. You can only disappoint that many times if you're pretty regularly there. You know? That's true. And so there's something about just like the machine and their ability to be competitive.

23:08I think a lot of teams in the AFC look dreadful. Obviously, it's week one. Week one overreactions in both directions are a matter of course every year. like a lot of the teams that look terrible today are not going to be that bad. And a lot of teams that look competitive today are not ultimately going to be relevant throughout the course of the season. The Ravens will be a relevant team this season. Like the Bills are going to be a relevant team. These are going to be two of the Super Bowl contenders. I think that that just feels true. So I don't know, like it doesn't diminish my joy to think about the failures in postseason's past or the prospect of a failure in the future postseason.

23:43Like why watch it all if that's your relationship to it. All that said, how can you not kind of think about what feels like a pattern that is almost inescapable? And at the end of the day, and again, there's genuinely no team. This is why I think that the Bills and Ravens kind of sharing this elite quarterbacks and teams and players of a generation era, obviously to this point, both in the shadow of Mahomes and the Chiefs, of course. is that like no fandom and no team understands what that's like better than the Bills, right? Who have gotten to a place that the Ravens have not gotten with Lamar, the Super Bowl, and weren't able to push through.

24:26So I don't know. It's like, I don't have a great answer because I think you're asking something that a lot of different fans like would maybe say they felt a certain way about. But at the end of the day, the test is always going to come when it comes. Like, I watched the Orioles be a sub 500 team for a decade and a half, and I loved every second of it. Like I'll ride with my team when they underperform. It's, I think in some ways, more painful to be good and keep falling short though. I was, as you were talking, I'm like, wait a minute. I know it's because when you have the experiences of your team sucking in whatever sport it is, just a team you care about or you like, then when you get to this stage where they're always competitive and others are ripping you because you're not getting it done in the playoffs, you're like, screw you.

25:07It could be that they're eight, nine or not even in the playoffs. So I'm going to enjoy this. And maybe this will be the year that one of them breaks through. And I actually do think it's going to be the year one of them, the Ravens or the Bills, actually get to the Super Bowl. So this will be my last question for you. I am a football genie. Now, for our YouTube viewers, I'm not dressing up in this particular episode as a football genie. But I can tell you that the Ravens do not have to face one quarterback in the playoffs. Whatever their path to the Super Bowl is, who do you want me to take off the plate where you can enjoy the rest of this season knowing you don't have to face either Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes on your way to the playoffs after this week one game trying to avoid the recency bias who am I taking out?