Ben Elton on Blackadder, Mr Bean & Writing TV Classics

23:27Romesh Ranganathan:They've still got the gong shows. Yeah, they do the old gong show. This was a gong show. That was it. And it was, and I very quickly became compere because I was quite good at it. And as I say, I had the material and I could write more of it. all the time. So did material come easily to them? Yeah, totally. I mean, writing comes easily to me. I mean, it isn't always, I'm sure, you know, there'll be your listeners, perhaps we'll talk a bit more. I do make a lot of effort, but I find it's something that I was, you know, people say, are you driven? I say, no, I'm inspired. I'm inspired to write. I'm not driven to write.

24:03I'm inspired to write because I've got some ideas that are tumbling out. I'm not as fast as I used to be when you're young you know it's all exciting every idea is a winner and you're just bashing it down and just churning it out yeah I mean I was a jobbing writer I did stuff for Rick I did stuff for Pete and I I was satirical I mean I dissected where you know I did routines about taking as facts like you can't advertise tampons on the telly which you couldn't and used to be able to do which is just kind of insane that we lived in a literally lived in a world where where where menstruation was a secret was something even called tampon secrets and whispers and you know gave them work you know you know and you know this is clearly you know corrosive sexism and patriarchal beyond belief and and i and i you know i i i knew how to skew it i said what would it be like if men you know men men menstruated well you know we'd be boasting about it down the pub wouldn't we you know fuck me you know i was bleeding last night fainted you know gallons mate gallons you know you know and uh and uh you know i i did a big long routine about it and some of your listeners if they know my work will know it but it's an example of a lot of the stuff i did which was to take a little bit of politics which became a sort of catchphrase and and and and use it to create actual comedy not comedy that you just agreed with yeah but comedy that made you laugh and you could even laugh even if you didn't agree with it and that was obviously the aim so yeah i became i became a stand-up comic but it was never my ambition and for many years i i hated it i hated doing it yeah it was it's you know it's hard you're putting yourself on the line and you know you've got to i never died i mean i've never i've never had the you know the the experience of really fucking up on stage again because i my material you know i worked i didn't improvise on stage you know i mean a lot of comics they think the way and maybe they're right for them is to go on and maybe they've got a couple of ideas and they just busk with it no i work really hard at home so everything you said was heavily scripted heavily scripted now if you have done that work and frankly most comics do it's a myth you know we robin williams used to come down a comic strip comedy store and you know obviously a truly great stand-up but the first time you see you think my god he's literally taking this woman's handbag he wouldn't do that now but like you know he's doing and he's and it's like as if he's literally making it up as he goes along because then you see him the next time and he's not he might be in a bit of a different order and there might be a few new things but basically he's got a shed load of shtick and billy billy connelly my my my greatest comic my greatest british comic in my lifetime you know again he appears to be like you know he's laughing it through it's occurring to him yeah of course it isn't he's got to do, he's got an 80 day tour.

26:54I used to say, people say to me, oh, you know, I came, I loved the show. I came again. It's just the same stuff again. Yeah. Because obviously I'm going to write two hours of brand new, like, drag pack, you know, then maybe I could do a new show every night. But if I'm going to give you honed material. So, yeah, I work incredibly hard on my stand up comedian, stand up material. Always did. Learn it. Very boring job. Shouting at edges as you walk along, you know. and then you can improvise some strength. If you've got a routine and you know where you're going, then often, oh my goodness, you know, the muse touches you and you come up with something new on stage and that's a moment of, that's sublime.

27:34I mean, Woody Allen spoke for all comic writers when he said, when I write a joke, I'm hearing it for the first time because you really don't know where it comes from. When the rubber hits the road, Keith Richard, everyone talks about songwriting. You don't write songs. you just plug them from the air man you know but that is kind of how creation is if you could plan it then you don't really know where the perfect thing comes from until it arrives normally for me that's at home with a computer or a pen lovely blank book that you want I could be trying to fill and sometimes it's on stage but I do want to talk

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29:15Romesh Ranganathan:oh okay yeah because well recently i did a show called last one laughing and they do this thing i don't know if you i don't know if you've ever had this where they for the social media team they basically it's a really reductive way of doing things what they do is they go we're gonna do a face-off and then they name two sitcoms you got to choose your favorite one and then it's like a knockout tournament it's really horrible way of they just do it for a social media clip anyway blackadder appeared and then it trumped every sitcom that they named after that for me because i think did they name the young ones the thin blue lion and upstart crow yeah i asked them to and i dismissed all of those no but for me blackadder is if not the it's in the conversation for best ever sitcom it's incredible first of all it's so relentlessly funny you know you sort of think about even the journey from the first series to the second series you know it's so different but still funny in different ways.

30:13Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, it's... You know, you talk about the rigours of writing. You can see that... You can tell that a lot of work has gone into that. What was kind of your journey with that show? Well, you say the journey from the first to the second. That was it, except it wasn't a journey. It was an arrival. Yeah. And you said, you know, they were both funny but not in... But there you're wrong, of course, because the first one wasn't funny. That's probably pitching it too hard, and I apologise to Richard and Rowan who wrote it. But yeah, The Blackadder, which was the first series of what became The Blackadder sort of thing, was written by Richard and Rowan.

30:51It wasn't done in the studio. It wasn't a studio sitcom. And it was done on film. And I don't think I'm giving away any secrets when I say it was what they call a curate's egg, good in parts. Richard and Rowan definitely thought that because Rowan dropped out as rides, as far as I know, he's the only he was i don't think he's written anything else since and i don't i'm not sure he'd written anything before that so blackadder 2 was a complete reinvention um and really i sort of wanted to have a different name and it did kind of because it was no longer the blackadder it was blackadder and that was his name whereas the blackadder was a nickname but i was very very fortunate in that after the black adder had been deemed a curate's egg by all the people who were in on it um you know we need to think hard about this now so there's richard now if that had been me i'd have said yeah thank god i'm you know that that weight of of of not funny writing is off my back i'm going to do it on my own i and i i would unquestionably have said right i can handle this to my immense good fortune and life-changing good fortune, Richard said, no, I don't want to write it on my own.

32:03I'm interested in Ben. And Richard came to me and he came to me because he loved the young ones. I didn't know Richard. You know, he was one of the Oxbridge, you know, gang. That was a sort of separate world, the not the nine o 'clock news world, you know. And he came to me and we just hit it off as friends immediately. So when the Blackadder sort of job of co-writing the Blackadder came open because Rowan dropped out, Richard asked me. And of course, it was life changing for me and it was life changing for everyone because my element was undoubtedly significant. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I didn't bring something to it.

32:38Between Richard and I, we agreed on a radical reinvention. And that was that we should go into the studio for a start. Rowan, one of the world's great performers, live performers. his edinburgh shows were legendary i mean he doesn't like it he's somewhat anti-social is the wrong word but he he keeps a distance you know i think it's well known um he doesn't enjoy performing i don't think very much but he's brilliant at it um let's get in the studio let's get laughter let's do what we do very well in britain which is do a studio-based community-based sitcom with an ensemble of great actors playing to a live audience so that was a big change but by far the bigger change was let's change the characters and i was very clear on that from day one which is that you know rowan's playing an idiot in the blackout of the first season oh i don't really know what's going on um and you know i've said it in my book uh and he rose read it and enjoyed the book very much uh i enjoyed your book um i didn't offer a quote uh but anyway as I know your publishers hoped I would but then he doesn't you know he's not that's not you're not going to get that from Roe but he's read what I wrote which is that you know whisper it not I don't think Rowan's idiot characters are as funny as his superciliously superior characters are I mean of course Mr Bean is a colossal global success and I love it but I principally love it for its nihilism for its wickedness for the fact that Mr.

34:10Bean is not cuddly. Mr. Bean is vicious and can be spiteful and scheming and that side of it I love. But I thought that Rowan's black outer character just isn't funny and nor is Baldrick's. I mean, he's the sort of, you know, the scheming one. Let's swap it. So I don't know whether Richard or I, but we both agreed immediately on this big change, which was to make Baldrick the idiot and Rowan the scheming one, the clever one. Because, I mean, Rowan being effortlessly superior, are, come in, you know, is peerless. And so that was without doubt the most significant shift. We didn't do such a big change with the character of Percy, but it sparked a collaboration between Richard and I, which we haven't ever done it once, but, you know, it was a beautiful, beautiful collaboration and a beautiful friendship.

35:03And when people ask us who wrote what, we literally have no idea. We really do. There's this sort of myth that, you know, I did all the rude stuff and he did all the cute stuff. Complete myth, you know. I mean, I do tend a bit more towards the knob gag and he tends a bit more towards the cute. But, you know, I can write a sweet little upturned nose joke and he can write a turnip shaped gonad or a gonad shaped turnip gag. So we are ambidextrous. Is that the word in terms of cute and rude? one of the luckiest days of my life was the day Richard had the generosity which is a saying I don't think I would have had the creative generosity to say I don't want to do this on my own and that's why I got to co-write The Black Adam.

35:51Romesh Ranganathan:One of the things that I about that is I just can't imagine that happening now that you took it so far from the original right you know that switching the characters all of that is such a radical change was there resistance to that or were they happy to just let you do whatever you wanted? Well there's a sort of quite a good story about that. Most people don't know this although those of them who've read my book will know that Black Adder was actually cancelled after the first series. What happened was the first is as discussed was considered you know lots of strengths, some weaknesses but it cost an awful lot.

36:25John Lloyd, the producer, brilliant man brilliant comic man, another great colleague over the years. John Lloyd famously said blackadder one looked a million dollars unfortunately it cost two million dollars that was his joke and it kind of we didn't work in dollars and i think it probably was about you know a hundred thousand quid but but it basically it cost too much it cost a lot and it didn't deliver it was the big investment in ron atkinson the standout star of not an o 'clock news um sorry mel griff and pamela uh but they all became stars but roe was the man and the investment hadn't paid off.

37:01But they decided to go with it again. Then there was that old enemy of creativity, regime change. How often? I'm sure it's happened in your career. God knows it's happened to me. You're in development. It's all going well. The boss changes and he just, or she just chucks everything out because if they go on with it, the previous person gets the credit. Well, that was the previous person's project. And if they go on with it and it fails, then they get the blame. So I've had really good promising stuff just killed by it. The simple fact that the new boss doesn't want the old boss's promising stuff.

37:32Anyway, so Regime came in. Michael Grade came over as controller of BBC One. And the first thing he did was looked at his comedy budget and he thought, you spent that much on that show, it didn't really work, and he cancelled us. And I got a letter through the post. In fact, Richard, who was much more in the loop than I was even then, now he calls, you know, the Pope takes his phone calls and, you know, Bono asks to bring him tea in the morning. but even in those days Richard before Four Weddings before Comic Relief before his wonderful work in so much in Global Famine even then he was so well connected you know as Phil McIntyre said you don't get to be the first Australian to be Head Boy of Arrow without something about you he knows what he's doing and he came to me on our last edit session we were just putting in all the scripts we were about to send all the scripts in everything had been written he said they've cancelled it I said what he said I'm just telling you, they've cancelled it.

38:26They're not going to do it. We'll get paid for the scripts, but they're not going to use them. And lo and behold, next day in the post, post was quick in those days, I got my letter from John Howard Davis, head of entertainment. Michael Gray has cancelled the Blackadder. And I regret to say, for the, not just a foreseeable, this means it's, don't hold out hope. It's over. Now, I still have that letter framed in my lavatory. And, well, I have a number of lavatories. I don't want you to think I've only got one loop. No, no. I didn't nobody assume that you had one. Yeah, I'd move it around. I judge the measure of a man's success by how many flushable lose he's got.

38:59You can't count caravans. Then we went into overdrive. I had no influence, but Rowan's agent, Richard Armitage, had a lot of influence. And John Lloyd had some influence. He produced not on the 9 o 'clock news, and they went to Michael Grade. And they said, look, everything you don't want, we've already chucked out. This is a new show. It's got a similar title, Blackadder 2. but it's in the studio, it'll cost half as much, it'll be five times as good, just look at the scripts, etc. And to his immense credit, he reversed his decision, which was a huge thing to do. Now, since then, Michael has kind of convinced himself and rather dined out on the story that there never was a cancellation.

39:41He simply rung us young punks up and said, now look here, what you need to do is put this in the studio, you need to make Blackadder the clever one, and Baldrick the Fool. And basically, so, you know, bless him, he's rather dined out on the idea that he sort of forced our young punkish talents, wrangled us into line, and that's why the ad was such a complete bullshit. There was no doubt. Michael Grade came in after the whole series was written. Where he could gain enormous credit, more credit, in my opinion, is that he reversed his decision. That's a huge thing for a boss to do, to come in and say, right, well, I don't want that, and chuck it out.

40:20and the budget was reallocated. So when he brought it back, he had to take budget from the following year. So it was a huge reverse ferret, as they now say in politics. And that takes a big, brave, bold decision because, of course, it made him look like a flake. You know, we'd gone in, so please, can you let us do it, really? And he'd go, all right, then you can. You know, had it not worked as well as it had, I mean, he would have looked such a fool. So I think we owe him so much, but not remotely for the reasons he's been saying. for the last 40 years. Good on Michael Gray, a huge figure in the business, but yeah, that's the real story of the Black Adam.

40:55Romesh Ranganathan:So you mentioned young ones. Of the sitcoms that you've written, what's the one you're most proud of then? Well, up until quite recently, I always just say, you know, none of them and all of them. I don't go around really being proud of my work. I'm proud of the fact that I did my best and I don't look back. I never watch anything that I've done. I never read anything that I've done. It's not out of some kind of, oh, it's all dead history to me. It's just not interesting. I'm interested in the next thing. And if I do happen to catch a bit of an adder or young ones on a plane or something, all I can think of is the stuff that I was furious about at the time.

41:28It never dies. They never should have cut that joke. That edit's awful or whatever. Or we could have done better. And so I don't think about my work. And I know that every single project I ever did, I did my best at. And I always thought at the time it was my very best work. And so I genuinely never had an answer to that. and it was always a rather boring, perhaps pious sounding one, which is I'm proud of them all. But now I have an answer and that is Upstart Crow because, you know, that was written in adversity and it was a very hard write. It's a hugely, you know, though I say it myself, hugely research piece.

42:04It takes an awful lot of sort of digging into Shakespeare. And I was coming from a position of some considerable weakness in as much as I'd had a big failure with a show I'm very proud of as proud of as the young ones which is show called the right way which starred david haig which was somehow deemed to be a an insult to comedy and you know i was really hauled over the you know they had a discussion on news night why is ben elton so these days um how did you how did that feel to be at the center of all that not great i tried to hide a bit um vice is it vice one of them one of the early websites they they did a roundup of reviews which i i didn't see the reviews but i I was told about the headline, should Ben Elton be put on suicide watch?

42:46You know, so it was pretty heavy, you know. I mean, I happened to, you know, because somebody told me the Guardian, Ben Elton must never be allowed to make television. Look, the piece, maybe it wasn't good, although I thought it was funny. I still do. But it was a very traditional studio based sitcom about a health and safety worker who was, you know, overly officious, you know, and always wore his high vista bed and that sort of thing. and anyway it had been viewed as like you know the last nail in the coffin of a sadly compromised 80s lefty who's revealed himself as you know a talent a sad act uh and you know that was kind of me done which certainly for tv and things which i don't think it's out of the part i mean i i was still selling novels and things but yeah it was pretty grim in terms of a general presumption that i was a majorly busted flush and probably one who somehow sold out everything he ever believed in in the first place i'm i'm very good with adversity you know you yeah oh god fuck that's horrible and then you get over it yeah as i say i'm very lucky to be happy in general i mean you're

43:50Romesh Ranganathan:yeah i mean it's fortunate that you're able to do that because it's yeah uh and you know you've got to pick yourself up and dust yourself down etc and then i got this opportunity which i never expected i thought well that's me for sitcom forever but but shane allen and another one like richard like many people in my life i i owe an immense debt to shane allen was head of comedy at the bbc at the time and he said i've got something i want to talk to you about i couldn't believe it because i really was pronounced you know dead uh and um he said the 400th anniversary of shakespeare's death's coming up all the other bbc departments are doing something on shakespeare except light entertainment or that's called comedy i think um he said we should do something and i think you know had a history you know a bit erudite but with lots of knob gags you're the man in a way he said i'm not commissioning you but do you have any thoughts said i had an idea you might like to write a cod shakespeare play you know we could do a one-off like a an un you know newly discovered shakespeare play so i but i thought no a sitcom about shakespeare's life had a lot of reasons that i thought he was the perfect like lower middle class englishman pushing against the posh boys.

45:00The more I read about Shakespeare, the more he reminded me of Captain Manorink. You would think not. How would that be? But I can explain it. Basil Fawlty, the traditional British sitcom hero who is clever and can see what he ought to be and it doesn't get it because of all the society, class prejudice, etc., etc. Shakespeare, it's called Upstart Crow because that is the only known review of Shakespeare that has survived, which is this upstart crow dressing himself in the feathers of a poet and a gentleman. You know, they resented him and his talent enormously. And I thought, that's a great sitcom, you know.

45:37And he was a commuter, you know, Stratford, London, London, Stratford, lots there. He lived with his parents-in-law, you know. Oh, my God, you know, et cetera. So I said we should make a sitcom. And anyway, look, you ask what am I most proud of. I don't really care about the word pride. I'm very proud of Upstart Crow and the fact that it was it was loved I mean not in a level that Adder is but nothing's you know I mean by the time Upstart Crow came out the BBC was getting was pleased with 2 million when 10 years before they'd have wanted 10 million so we got the 2 million and they were thrilled and yeah Upstart Crow was a labour of love and making friends with David and discovering David as a dear friend and colleague felt like meeting Rick or Ro you know and yeah so it was just a fantastic late life my my wife called that period the benaissance and that's nice

46:29Romesh Ranganathan:and uh yeah yeah and when upstart crow came out were you because of the right way were you anxious about that or did you see it as a free hit because you didn't know you're ever gonna do that i never you're always a bit anxious but i really don't and i'm sure you're the same you can't be thinking how's it gonna go you just gotta do it well it's not healthy to yeah i mean i'm very good at getting in the bar and not thinking about it anymore um and you know i love a drink and that's always helpful uh well not for everyone but for me i'm an evangelist if it's a problem i always say you know it's not how much you drink it's what duck blues does to you you know if you drink you know seven pints a night but you pay your tax you you don't get in fights and you get up and work the next day then you haven't got a problem i mean you might die a bit younger but so the fuck what you know uh but if you drink a teaspoon of sherry and you go out and punch a policeman and you can't give up that teaspoon you're an alcoholic yeah so for me it's about what it does to you and i've always been a very benign drinker i don't drink every night anymore i did for 30 years but i don't need more but i love it still and i hope to die you know with a glass of shampoo and ice ready man but um was i worried about upstart crow no i never i never worry about because i know that i've had success and I've had failure and in the end you know I'm with Kipling you really do have to treat meet triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same and I mean that has to be about the best piece of advice you could give to anyone but certainly an artist uh we've got a question from my mother now on voice note um I say this every time I don't know what this question is so let's see Hi Ben this is Ramesh's mum Hi you worked so hard and you have had so much success what keeps you motivated to keep working when you could retire now have a lovely day love to meet you one day take care what a delightful lady I mean she's suggesting you retire but um no she I mean that's the spin of a classically cynical millennial I'm thinking or are you a late Zed no you're a millie aren't you you're an ex I'm the forgotten generation the ones nobody cares about yes they're coming in their own now because yeah they're going to be the enemy soon because my lot are dying fast I mean there's no there's no one in my family between what my brothers and sister are older but yeah well look what a lovely question from your mum and so charmingly put and I hope we do meet um maybe because I know you do a show together maybe we do maybe I can get on that easily achievable she could have come here today yeah maybe I could get on that one um look I've always had an ongoing compulsion compelling as I say I don't consider it to be driven I consider it to be inspired but I love to write comedy and I and that's what that's what keeps me going yes I I don't really know what retirement means for an artist.

49:38If you're fortunate enough, and I am an artist and popular, you know, whatever, it sounds a bit highfalutin for a knobgag merchant from way back. But I don't think there is such a thing as retirement because I would have written, if I'd never made a success of life, I would have tried to, you know, submit articles to the local paper or something, I don't know, made a fanzine or, you know, I'd always written plays for Amdram, whatever, which is what I did when I was young. and I'd still do it. And I think if you paint, you're always going to paint. Maybe people aren't going to buy it anymore. And maybe people won't buy my stuff.

50:11I certainly don't sell as big houses as I used to. Audience still comes to see me, but nothing like they did in the late 80s when I was kind of very, very hip for a while. So, yeah, I mean, what is it that keeps me going? It's a genuine delight in the thing I've been able to spend my life doing. you know there is no greater fortune good fortune than your hobby becoming your your I mean that's your hobby if your hobby is your job it's a vocation isn't it that's what they say and comedy has been my vocation um theatre arts theatre and tv arts I mean name your degree course are my vocation and I've been lucky to spend my life in it and earn a living doing it and yes a good enough living to be able to stop and I I'm certainly not as in you know the world is comprehensively failing to beat a part of my door at present because you know I'm old I'm an old bloke and you know even if a commissioner wanted to give me a show on telly they'd have to think very very hard because and rightly so because there's three generations of people wanting those breaks wanting those chances and I had you know my god more than my fair share so but I won't stop writing i mean i'd be very surprised if i got another sitcom but you never know but that doesn't stop me you know pottering about and and or going back on the road we will rock you one of the most successful musicals of all time yeah i mean not in a level of yeah very very very successful musical not not entirely i never never really cracked it in the states and but yeah a big success you described that as that we will

51:49Romesh Ranganathan:rock you the whole thing around that as one of the most intense periods of your professional life yeah it was what was that like to be putting that together i mean i mean you've we could have talked about this without you know we haven't talked about your novels and now your musicals i mean it's incredible the range of stuff that you've done but we will rock you how did that come about and how did that end up being so intense well what i mean again again i mean fantastic good fortune i mean they've heard you make your own luck and clearly you know i i earned a shot at some of the things I'd done because, you know, I'd done some work that had worked.

52:22But that doesn't stop me being super aware of my good fortune because I audition people when I'm directing or whatever and I am aware of how, it's a cliche, but how much talent is out there. There isn't enough work for the amount of talent and considering some of the people getting the work have no talent, that makes it even worse for the talented people. So I am aware that... Long may that continue. There's a lot of writers who would love to get there and deserve it. and you know it all sounds like you know virtue signaling cliche but it's bloody true so although I know I'm quite good at I am good at what I do I'm not the only one who's good at what I do and I've had a lot of luck and one bit of luck was um Phil uh I mentioned Phil McIntyre and Paul Roberts who are kind of my sort of man agent promotion company they one day it was a lovely little ploy uh one day uh Paul Roberts he's an old one for Preston uh he rang me up and said Ben, I can't believe it.

53:16I've got such amazing news. Queen, want you to write a musical with their best hits? I don't know. Bloody hell. You say, do you want to meet her? I say, yes, of course I want to meet her. I mean, this is Queen. This is the second, for me, the second most significant band that ever was. You know, I mean, clearly, you know, there's the Beatles. And then you take your choice. And for me, it's Queen. And, you know, I love all rock and pop and lots of it. And there's a tight race. But, yeah, Queen, fuck me. and so yeah anyway turned out he then phoned Jim Beach Queen's manager the bloke Tom Hollander plays in the movie and said now Mr Beach you know I wondered if you ever thought of making a musical I said well if you ever were you know we look after Ben Elton and he's very you know and so those two so I'll meet him you know I didn't meet the boys I say the boys they're older than me but I didn't meet the band at that point so So, you know, Paul sort of tricked me because I'd have gone, you know, if he'd said, look, I pitched you to Queen.

54:17I'd go, really? You know, as if that's going to happen. But he said, no, they really want to meet you. And of course they did. But anyway, so Jim did beat me. And it was just a bit of good fortune because they had been working, Jim particularly, been working on a Queen musical. But they've been doing it about Freddie's life. And it was a very serious musical, a lot about AIDS. The end of the musical is him dying. you know they'd done a workshop in New York with Robert De Niro why wouldn't he be a big Queen fan I mean he's a boomer like me and Brian and Roger had gone over they're the active members of the band of course Fred is gone and John doesn't really get out much he keeps an eye on it but you don't see much of him I've only met him once very nice we had a nice drink together Brian and Roger had said they don't want it we want something fun they said are we going to do a queen musical you know want something fun and exuberant like we are like freddie was we don't so um luckily at that point paul had pitched a comedian so the first thing they asked you know blackadder and young i had some you know they are but i don't know quite interesting i mean people british rock stars are quite interested i mean i've got to know the beatles as you know if you read the book and and um you know i nearly wrote a bg's had a lovely time with Brian with um Sabari and yeah so it's a broad my my body of work coming at the time it did you know was good for rock so the young ones was on every tour bus you know I mean I'm known in the rock world uh which is great for me because I love rock and pop more than anything I married a bass player and uh it's special to me that's my love is is rock and pop so the first thing Jim asked me to do was would you like to gag up what we've been working on already what the one about Freddie Dino Hayes, which is very, very serious, and about the politics of marginalisation, the gay communion, or whatever.

56:10I said, I don't know. I said, look, I don't think that's where you should go with the Queen musical. Queen belongs to all of us. You know, I've always been quite brave at fronting things up. And, I mean, I'm talking to Queen's manager, and, yeah, I said, look, this isn't for me. I don't think that's what you should do with the Queen. I don't think it should be about Freddie. It shouldn't be about the band. It should be the spirit of the band. You want a legend. You want something Arthurian, something grand, and pompous and huge, but also with satirical edge and bite and a bit of snark in it. And he said, well, that's very good.

56:41He said, if you've got any ideas, get in touch. And I was working on my Andrew Lloyd Webber musical at the time and directing my movie, Maybe Baby, with Hugh Laurie. So I was busy. But a year later, I came up with this idea for a sort of matrix world where music is streamed directly to the consumer from the big corporate entertainment machine. They get it into a handheld device. They're sort of locked into it, mesmerized by it. This was written in 1999, can I tell you, long before the iPhone or indeed the internet. I mean, it was there, but it was pretty prescient as a piece of satire. Anyway, so that's how that came about.

57:19I pitched the idea to them. Brian and Roger loved it. It was sent to John because the Queen don't do anything if there's not four votes. Jim Beach and the family have a vote, and then the three remaining. And John loved it too. and we were off, and it was wonderful and a very exciting time, and I wrote We Will Rock You, and I went away. I spent a lot of my life in Australia because my wife's Australian, so I went away, and the director was doing it at the Dominion Theatre, and I came back for the dress rehearsal. Very, very excited. Completely not involved, I wasn't directing, and I had nothing to do with me.

57:52I was the writer. In the end, what emerged was I had to kind of take over, and I ended up directing the production and it was a very, very, very tough time. But we did get it on and we got it on to where it's getting standing ovations and people are loving it. And it was another of those real heavy slaggings. I mean, the press night, it was a joyful, joyful night, rock and roll, dancing in the aisles. And then the next morning was one of those. It was like the right way. I mean, it just, a comprehensive, you know, The Daily Mirror said, oh, I should be shot. I got most of it. They all said they kind of hate Queen because Queen was going – people don't remember.

58:31Queen were going through a bit of a – in the turn of the century, oh, Freddie's gone and they're just a bunch of long-haired has-beens or whatever. The music was still there, but it was a bit of a dip. Now it seems impossible to imagine that Queen weren't the all-compering, iconic cultural colossus that they are, but it wasn't like that around that time. and there was a lot of, you know, the daily, again, I didn't read, I quoted it to him. In fact, Robert De Niro quoted it to him. The Telegraph said, I've got 1 ,000 CDs in my collection and I'm proud to say not one of them is by Queen. I thought, well, why are you fucking reviewing?

59:08Would I go and see an opera and try and review it? Would I go to commentate a football match? I don't know anything about football. You know, it was amazing that there was this kind of pride in, well, Queen, you know, yes. And they all called it, you know, Freddie Mercury's band. and all of them said Freddie would be revolving in his grave. They all suddenly know Freddie, unlike Brian and Roger and Jim and his family. You know, Freddie's mum wrote to us after the reviews, which were catastrophic. We were going to close in a week. Everyone was going to be out of work. It was horrendous. Our business was cut in half.

59:41We'd had this huge first night. Normally, that's your best box office day ever, particularly if you've got not just Robert Nero, but Noddy Holder from Slade at your opening night. And that, for me, was really something special. And it was a big opening night. But our box office died the next day because it was a real, like Radio 4, you know, do not give them your money, time out, don't give them. It was heavy. I don't know why. I saw resentment of success. I don't know what it was. And I got it particularly. You know, as I say, the Daily Mirror said I should be shot. And so we got it on against some very difficult circumstances.

1:00:16And then it was sort of looked like it was going to be killed at birth. But we kept working and kept working. Queen played the Jubilee. Her Madge stepped up and gave us a bit of publicity, you know, one Queen looking after another, so to speak, and Brian played on the roof, and he played live. Imagine that. He played live. I mean, you watch it and imagine he's doing it live with earphones and the entire band of the Coldstream guards, like 200 metres below him. And I kept working on it and working on it, and eventually it became this great hit. But for a year, people think it was an instant. For a year, we had what's called the curtain in, which is what you do with a big auditorium that isn't full.

1:00:54You basically drape half of it. So the audience walk in, there's huge stalls, and there's like empty seats, and there's this black wall. It's made of cloth, and you walk all the way down, and you go through this wall, and then you're into the half auditorium. And we had the curtain in for a year. We didn't even have the circle open, but there was, you know, it was a hard slog. It was a very difficult slog. But, well, the morning after we got the reviews, Jim Beach read it. A hundred people were assembled. I mean, obviously, everyone had a year's work. People had got their mortgage. You know, it was devastating.

1:01:24And that theatre would have been empty for you. I wouldn't have been able to fill it with anything else. In fact, until Devil's made Wes Prada, they didn't really get another hit. And he read the review from the NME, which is the classic sort of we know better than the fans sort of thing. You know, I preferred their earlier work kind of thing. And he read it, the review of News of the World, the Queen album from 78 said, upon this appalling, agrarious insult of an album, amongst 12 appalling tracks to stand up as being worthless and without merit, these are, we are the champions and we will rock you.

1:02:03And I'm not saying critics are wrong, but then they often are. And that's the thing. They make it as a statement. And he read it out, but it was small comfort at the time. But I think the problem is that when something appeals directly to that, something like Yesterday by the sublime genius, the gift to the 20th century that is Paul McCartney, and for years he was sneered at because he wasn't rude to people and he didn't, you know, John Lennon was mean and nasty and he wrote, you know. But obviously they were both geniuses, together and apart, and they both gave a gift to human. Their contributions to the sum of human happiness is incalculable, together and apart, but particularly together.

1:02:41But Paul got it in the neck because he's a nice guy. And, you know, and he writes, sometimes he just writes something so sweet, it defies definition. And so you get somebody, you know, Julie Birch was sort of, you know, the only thing worse than Imagine is Yesterday. You know, it's like, oh, come on. But something like Yesterday is so perfect. And he wrote it in, well, he dreamt it, I believe. And I think if something defies criticism, it is difficult if you are a critic. What are you going to say about yesterday other than it's simply sublime? Or you could say it's kind of cheesy and obvious.

1:03:17You know what I mean? And I think Queen got a lot of that because some people think because something is deeply loved by people who are uncritical in general, that must make it cheesy and somehow worthless. I am an evangelist for good popular art. Not all popular art is good, but not all literary art or high art is good either. Yeah. Quite the opposite. it uh and if popular art is generally generally genuinely popular it probably is good art if you want to see what people critics will be lauding in terms of pop music look at what was 20 years ahead because something like wham i remember wham being sneered at sublime pop music come on wake me up before you go go it's a perfect pop song you know and yet they were cheesy crowd teeny bop you know um thank goodness the single in a way one of the very few gifts the internet's given I mean it's I would uninvent the internet if I had a split second but one good thing about the is that singles have become important again because people can cherry pick tracks and although I do love a great album to denigrate the single that used to how it'd be like Led Zeppelin we don't do singles you know we don't we wouldn't go on top of the pulse well you know you're a great man but Slade did singles and so everyone thinks they're just somehow less anyway we've got a long way from wherever it was we started so i don't quite know it was a hell of a journey yeah i i certainly haven't answered anything no you have you have okay so this game is called misquoted i'm very excited for you to play it's misquoted i'll give you five quotes some of them you said

1:04:51Romesh Ranganathan:some of them you didn't okay oh yeah all right um all you've got to do is tell me whether you did or you didn't. So you're saying don't go off on one for 20 minutes. No. I don't. No. You can go on as long as you like. We've got an edit. Okay, so. You keep saying that. You're supposed to say we love it. No, we love it. No, we love it. We do love it. We do love it. I do talk a bit too much. No, we do love it. We do love it. Okay, here's your first one. Good luck to you. I think I would have been a better writer if I hadn't been so restless. Did you say that or not? Yeah, it's certainly, I don't think it's very elegantly put, but I think it definitely sums up a kind of feeling that sometimes I've undermined my work by rushing and thinking of the next thing.

1:05:36Not that I don't work hard, I do, but yeah, I think I probably might have said that. You did say that. Oh, good.

1:05:41Romesh Ranganathan:To The Times in 2025. Congratulations. I should remember that, but things are going. Okay, here's your second one. You're one for one. Congratulations. Does it feel good? I'm indifferent. Okay. Thank you for being honest. Okay, here's your next one. as cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Advanced Strategic Cunning at Oxford University. Well, if it is genuine, it's me and Richard, no question of that because it's certainly Blackadder. It might be a sort of cod one because I've spent a life saying, you know, we invented this trope which, you know, a couple of actors have kind of claimed credit for, but the thing of you're as small as a very small thing that got a degree in being small, you know.

1:06:22So maybe it was a cod one, but I'm going to go for it. I don't remember Blackadder lines. people quote them to me all the time i'm going back for a bit of rap surprise tonight and it's blackadder i don't remember them but i think it sounds quite good and i'm going to claim it for

1:06:35Romesh Ranganathan:me and richard okay it's from blackadder goes forth but we slightly we added something to the line and there's a reason that's cheating i know i know it's kind of a half quote all right i'll rework half of it then okay yeah you did um because we added advanced strategic so the actual quote is cunning as a fox has just been appointed professor of cunning at oxford university and the reason we did that is because you don't have to pay us anything or something like that correct, you don't have to clear it, we don't have to fair deal it no it's because you sort of famously agonised over every word didn't you we do yeah I think as does Richard we agonise as did PG Woodhouse, that doesn't mean it takes a long time because you can agonise quite quickly and vigorously and I do it often um the uh so but yeah and words are i love i love words to have a toolbox full of words to have the english language to play with is a joyful um a joyful thing and uh yeah words mean everything to me okay you're two for two so far okay you're giving me that you're feeling less yeah i'm gonna give it to you you're feeling less indifferent well you think i just yeah yeah i don't time I'm from disaster, darling.

1:07:51Romesh Ranganathan:I'm with Kipling on this. All right, here's your next one. We are breeding a generation of big-thumbed hunchbacks. Well, it's something a lot of people have sort of observed. You see sort of cartoons. It's certainly something I've kind of... I've definitely... I mean, if it's a false one, you're being clever and naughty because you're kind of writing stuff. Look, honestly, I think it sounds quite like me. I'm going to claim it. It probably isn't, but yeah. You did say that. Oh, there you go. 2014. Right. In a radio interview. So well done for remembering that you might say something. Yeah. I mean, you've even talked about...

1:08:31Do you think your listeners will, and indeed viewers, will get it? I mean, I'm sure they will.

1:08:36Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, they'll get it. It was an observation about, you know, the beginnings of mobile phones. I remember trying to write something for Rick, you know, in the years just before it died. You know, everyone stroking their phones. you're stroking my phone and uh anyway but you never got to do it because the bbc wouldn't well i don't have it anyway but is that something you're particularly uh get particularly angry about yeah i i i think technology is now self-evidently a genuine existential threat to humanity i mean clearly with AI, but I felt it with the internet. The ability to, you know, they say a lie has gone around the world before the truth has put its running shoes on.

1:09:21Well, I mean the internet, around the world 27 times. I always knew it wasn't the great democracy. I used to have big fights with Stephen about this because, you know, he was this evangelist. It's marvellous. It's going to be like a library in your pocket. And I always knew it was just going to be a fucking sewer, you know. And you know, if you want, you can always buy a book. You can look it up. And look i know they're a good i hate it my kids hate me saying it because they have to live with it you know there's no going back i'm not a luddite i'm not trying to reinvent you know i'm not going to smash the spinning internet but uh i i i believe that the fact that there is no accountability or legislation to restrain the excesses of technology is an astonishing own goal on the part of the human race we if you have a drug that can can literally mesmerize children and adults but let's say kids because that's what's important in the future if you were to invent a drug that will will take people's attention away will distract them forever you know well there are such drugs and they are massively prescribed we see that we must legislate against a drug that can steal childhood but when it's fucking steve jobs going we got a great new piece of fun tech here you know i'm glad he's dead because he can't keep inventing new versions of the iphone with different plug sockets that we've got to buy a new plug for.

1:10:41I mean, it sounds cruel, but honestly, AI, like, they admit it themselves. It's going to put everyone out of work. I mean, I did talk about this on stage, but if a terrorist announced, we have a machine, we have developed a machine that will put humanity out of work within 10 years, should we choose to use it, MI5 and the SAS would be, you know, we'd be after them. But because it's a bunch of tech bros in California, they're literally admitting this is going to destroy jobs oh we're all going to have extra leisure time oh fucking people like to earn their livings people like to I'm yeah I feel very strongly that unbridled technological innovation is always seen as something that inevitably must be good oh you'd like to be cold would you you'd like not to have a cure for your yeah and we all know there's good stuff but frankly I think the balance has been tipped I think technology should have stopped at the electronic type in terms of communications the electric typewriter very nice maybe word processing stop no I want to put a computer in my pocket that will propagate they're buzzing around conspiracy theories on technology oh people didn't land on the moon they're pushing their conspiracy theories on technology which is unimaginably beyond their imagination I mean, Harry Potter would balk at a machine that you'd take a picture of your dick and send it round the world to everyone if you use enough big airdrop.

1:12:12This is mind-blowing, was it? Asimov said, you know, when technology gets so sophisticated, it's indistinguishable from magic. Well, clearly the iPhone is such a thing. Yeah. And yet people, idiots, are using it to say, I don't believe in the moon landings. You know, well, don't believe in the phone either. You know. it's so yeah i i'm i look as i say i had i had all i can say is i was i had this opinion when everyone went when it was all bright and gleaming but i do know kids have to use it and it is great yes you can some of them it's great as well it's like cars you know but you need to think about this shit look this there's pros and cons but i am i am clear in my belief that ai is and i of course how can you not use it it's there oh you're using sat nav you know what are you a hypocrite i've got to because you can't you can't buy a map anymore but yeah i am very very um sad that technology has been allowed to infect our lives in such an unrestrained manner sorry to bring it up Okay.

1:13:22Sorry. Was that to do with anything that we were doing?

1:13:27Romesh Ranganathan:Big-thumbed hunchback. Oh, yeah. So, like, yeah. But, you know, we're going to be, yeah. Okay, here's your next one. My life's loves are language and sparkly tailoring. Definitely not me. I love language. I don't love sparkly tailoring. I don't love any tailoring. I'm an M &S man. In fact, I'm going to use this opportunity to say an idea I've had. Go on. I'd like to be an M &S model. I've never done an advert, but I've always loved M &S, right back to when it was St. Michael's in the back of your pants, you know. And I, you know, these are, anyway, all I'm saying is they had to take that, you know, as venerable 50-year-olds.

1:14:07Now I'm at mid-60s. And all I'm saying is, you know. Yeah, Marks and Spencers,

1:14:12Romesh Ranganathan:if you could get in touch, I actually think you'd be a great shout for this. Yeah, I think, you know, sort of old man, but, you know, still relatively in shape. And they do great. What I love about M &S is short leg. I mean, can you believe they do short leg, middle leg and leg. That's incredible. I can go into M &S, pull on a pair of jeans, and it fits. I don't have to go, can you put some pins in and I'll come back tomorrow, which is so boring. You can't walk out of the shop. But M &S, short arm, short leg, that's who I'm for. I was going to call, if I did another tour, because I'm pushing this idea now, I was going to call the tour short arm, short leg, because that's what you can get in M &S.

1:14:50And you get long arm and long leg as well if you're taller and longer.

1:14:56Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, makes sense. Okay. I actually think, so I don't think I said that quote. No, you didn't. You said, language is my love to the Guardian in 2024. Did I then say sparkly suits? No. Oh, right. We added that. Yeah, I can understand language is my love, but the sparkly suit bit, no. The sparkly suit was me. It was a conscious decision. I used to go on stage And again, this weird thing in the late, in the 70s and early 80s, credibility was everything. Selling out. Constantly. Like you play a big theatre. Oh, sell out. What? You know, like, you know, you should be in the small clubs. There was no logic to it.

1:15:29But there was this idea that if you become, the left is cursed with this. I talk about it in the book. It's cursed with a hatred of success. That somehow there's something sort of grubby about doing well. You know, it must mean that in some way you're not no longer caring about anyone else. because I've had it all my life because I've been pretty successful and I've always been fairly verbose about my social conscience, I suppose. And people might think, you know, fuck you, but I'd say what I think and you can think what you think. We used to go on stage and everyone would go on stage looking like they didn't care, like you'd go on a T-shirt and jeans because you didn't want to be Tarby.

1:16:03You didn't want to be Bernard Manning. You didn't want to be one of those 70s suited glitteries because that was the man. you know so you know and all incidentally almost all those comics from the same were working class you know because actually working club they don't celebrate i mean the class things changed a lot but in those days you know they don't celebrate looking poor their whole idea was to try and not look poor so you know you had great fashion amongst working club kids the mods the the the the teds you know it was only middle class kids like me that wanted to look like tramps you know in our great coats and our t-shirts but we were all middle class or most of us were alexi wasn't interesting you know uh but so yeah so there's this idea you went on stage jeans and a t-shirt well of course you go on stage looking like a student and get treated like a student fuck off you i'm not going to use a c word because i personally fought a battle against that and i'm sticking with it um but you know you'd hear a lot of that and i thought well i'll get a suit i'll try and look like a comic uh but i want to admit i'm not going to pretend i'm like sharp or sexy i've never had any any any illusions about looking good or say or being cool i know i'm not cool i'm enthusiastic sort of undermining this mns bitch if you don't mind me saying maybe a bit yeah yeah well maybe cut this because i really would like to do that i mean but i've never been cool enthusiasm is not cool so if you're an enthusiast look at paul mccartney you know everybody went ah it's rubbish i don't even know i did it you know so you go yeah it's the greatest thing i've ever done hey hey you know that that's not cool even if you are a genius um so anyway I decided I'd get a suit, but I'd make it sparkly so that everyone would know I wasn't pretending I was cool or anything.

1:17:41I was a farty. I'm celebrating my dickheadness by wearing a silly sparkly suit. And that's why I have no affection for tailoring or sparkliness. Okay, good to know. In fact, glitter is made of plastic. And I do think they should tone it down on the pride marches because all those microplastics with all the fucking glitter. But then I'm being called a killjoy.

1:18:01Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. Well, that's one of my problems with pride. Okay. Okay, here's your last one. I have always policed my own work. Sounds a pompous thing to say, but you get interviewed. I mean, it's sort of... I think I possibly did say it, but I'm hoping I didn't. Well, you did say it on the Louis III podcast, but it was actually... I was dying for a wee for about half an hour. Yeah, anyway, carry on. Well, actually, that bit of context helps. but when you're talking about cancel culture and how people always want you to talk about the fact that you can't say anything I mean I get asked this a lot comedians now they want to always ask comedians how do you feel about cancel culture and the fact you can't say what you used to and it's obviously bollocks every time yeah so I would have said look I exercise self-censorship that's my answer I will say I will stand in my truth as young people say and as my wife added and you are up to your neck at it and I'm So, yeah, I think I've given a chance, I'd put it slightly better.

1:19:07But no, I don't censor myself on stage beyond my own personal morality. If you don't think something is actually funny and worthy of you, don't say it. And that's about and, you know, if you're a racist, then that'll be your truth. But I believe I am a liberal conscious. I don't as what is called punch down. And so I'm pretty, I feel I'm, as Shakespeare said, long before the term standing in your truth was said, armed strong in honesty. I'm getting more pompous every moment.

1:19:45Romesh Ranganathan:Ben, it's been amazing to have you on. And I know I said to you we can edit. Your answer has been fantastic. So thank you very much. You're genuinely a legend. We try and get something viral from every guest. is there anything that you can tell us that you've never said publicly before I guess is that so hard I mean I'm 66 man I mean it's very little I haven't said you know um now I'm on the spot you'd have to I'd have to I don't I don't lie I mean one thing I can honestly say is I've never said anything in an interview or on a page that I didn't think was was what I wanted to I wasn't I've never tried to manipulate anyone by you know oh he wants to hear this or they want to hear that and it's got me into trouble sometimes.

1:20:25It made me sound pious, apparently, sometimes. But I've said everything a lot over the years and I don't think I do ever. I often find I've got more to say when I'm asked a question. But if you ask me, come on, what would you really like to say? I've been saying it all my life. I've been saying whatever it is I really want to say, I said it. yeah and i all the time from my the first word i wrote and particularly with my stand-up that's the thing about stand-up such a beautiful art form which i hated at first but i came to love because it's subjective art most of my work is kind of objective you're putting lines in people's mouths you're you're writing a novel which is a story so you're coming at it from a lot of different directions but but but the the stand-up is the nitty-gritty of again a phrase often used who I am, it's who I am.

1:21:21So, yeah, there's nothing I've been dying to say because if I'm dying to say it, I say it. And too much.

1:21:28Romesh Ranganathan:Well, there is one final thing that we'd like to give you the opportunity to say. M &S are big fans of the podcast. Is there anything you'd like? I'm not entirely well-dressed for it. I could send you photos. My suits are M &S. I could show you. Yeah, I think it's time they got some old, rattled old alternative comics on, you know. Never mind take that. You know, yes. If you need a model, I'm here. Ben Elton, everybody. Thank you so much for watching this episode of the Romesh Ranganathan Show. I've been told that some of you are watching this, enjoying it, wallowing in it, but you still haven't subscribed.

1:22:10Romesh Ranganathan:That's mad behaviour. You're going to miss episodes. Very silly. So follow and subscribe to the Romesh Ranganathan Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We drop new episodes every Monday and Thursday. On Monday, I'm here with amazing guests talking about their career, what they're up to, having a laugh with them. And then on Thursdays, I'm joined by my mum, widely regarded as the audience's favourite Ranganathan. And we answer your questions, your stories, and your family dilemmas. So I'll see you on Thursday when I'm back here with my mum, Shandy. Send your questions and stories to podcast at rangaby.com.

1:22:43Romesh Ranganathan:Voice note or text on 07731 623-355. We genuinely love hearing from you and there's a good chance you'll hear yourself on the show. See you next time. Oh, shut up, Romesh. Good energy in. Good energy out.

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