Hannah Fry: The Science Behind AI, Grief Tech & Life

7:00Romesh Ranganathan:First of all, let's wet your hands. Right, shall we?

7:05Hannah Fry:Okay, so because it, right, remind me what it does. So it's like an oscillating current, right?

7:10Romesh Ranganathan:Correct. Absolutely. And it oscillates.

7:14Hannah Fry:What I remember is that it sort of strips the electrons from the air around it. Do you get like a little bit of lightning?

7:20Romesh Ranganathan:Yes, it does. That's exactly what it looks like. That's what it looked like for the seven seconds it was functioning. Wait, wait, wait.

7:25Hannah Fry:Is it on? Do I just turn it on? It is on, yeah. Okay, there's a tiny light. There's a picture. Oh, well, that is underwhelming, isn't it?

7:36Romesh Ranganathan:Is it doing what it's supposed to do now? I don't think so, no. That's it, so there you go.

7:41Hannah Fry:On Friday, it was like blue sparking everywhere. No, I did that a bit earlier before it...

7:51Hannah Fry:That is... There you go.

7:59Romesh Ranganathan:Why did that suddenly happen like that?

8:02Hannah Fry:Not great for the audio. That is terrifying, isn't it?

8:06Romesh Ranganathan:So there you go. the Tesla coil disappointing when it's off terrifying when it's on

8:14Hannah Fry:it's all one more of a middle ground on average great

8:20Romesh Ranganathan:will it do something it did something turn it off what the fuck

8:28Hannah Fry:that's what happened amazing I feel like you've given me something I can terrify small children with for a number of years to come.

8:38Romesh Ranganathan:So, it is, I mean, it's impressive. Okay, we've also got a backup present. Not that we didn't have faith in that one. This is for you. This is also for you. It's very generous. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Have a look and see what you think.

8:52Hannah Fry:It's a book. Hang on. It's a math joke book. First joke is that hasn't got the S on the end of math. I know, it's American. That's great. Oh, great. Would you like to? I'll use this. Like if you wanted to. I'd love you to.

9:09Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's see. Remember, a lot of this is in the delivery, so no pressure.

9:16Hannah Fry:Sure. I'm just doing this in front of one of Britain's best loved comedians. That's absolutely fine.

9:21Romesh Ranganathan:No, look online. You'll know that's not true. Okay.

9:27Hannah Fry:Why don't Sin and Tan get along?

9:29Romesh Ranganathan:I don't know.

9:30Hannah Fry:Just cause.

9:31Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, I don't mind that. Yeah, that's what you want as a response, isn't it? On tour, what I love to hear is, I don't mind that. That's when the hairs on the back of your neck start to turn up. Okay, let's hear another one. It works though, doesn't it? And it worked for these guys and I fuck all, and you got it, didn't you? Loved it, I loved it. Ben got it. I really loved it. It was hard to let it. That means an animal could probably get it. Okay, let's hear it.

10:00Hannah Fry:So the spacing along the lines is bothering me slightly. But, you know, whatever. This is... I'm being too critical.

10:07Romesh Ranganathan:No, you're not being too critical. That's great.

10:09Hannah Fry:Why was the student doing multiplication problems on the floor?

10:14Romesh Ranganathan:Because he had no times tables.

10:16Hannah Fry:Very close slash good. Shit! The teacher told him not to use tables.

10:21Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think?

10:26Hannah Fry:Three out of ten. The Tesla coil, though.

10:30Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, really good.

10:31Hannah Fry:Absolutely great. Really good.

10:32Romesh Ranganathan:Well, look, thank you so much for coming on to the show. Thanks for having me. We're all big fans of you.

10:36Hannah Fry:Oh, thank you. Except for Will.

10:41Romesh Ranganathan:He's not that fast.

10:42Hannah Fry:I suspected that when I shook his hand, to be honest.

10:44Romesh Ranganathan:I'm joking. I'm joking.

10:50Romesh Ranganathan:No, we're all big fans. You're the first professor to come on the show. Am I? On the Robert Strang and Nathan show, yeah. Hey. The Professor of the Public Undeciding of Mathematics.

10:57Hannah Fry:Is this what you think your audience has been clambering for? A bit more maths.

11:02Romesh Ranganathan:There's constantly the comments are, I just want someone to be in charge of my understanding of maths. Yes, did I like Stephen Merchant? Yeah, sure. But why didn't you talk about maths and the public understanding of it? So this is what we've got. And here at last. It's happening. But it is actually, you know, a really incredible thing that you're doing, which is like, you know, making science and maths accessible. It's traditionally something that, you know, I was a, as a maths teacher, I kind of, it's really the struggle that I found was you're trying to make this thing really interesting while also delivering what you're supposed to deliver.

11:43Romesh Ranganathan:So what would happen is sometimes the lesson would be really interesting, but I think, I don't think we did that much maths in that. Do you know what I mean? And then the other time you go, okay, I've managed to deliver the maths, but it's not that interesting. But you've managed to like, was that something you've always been passionate about, about kind of trying to make that appealing?

12:00Hannah Fry:I have exactly the same conversation in my head, by the way, of like when I managed to make something really good that lands really well and people really like it. In my head, I'm like, there wasn't that much mouse in there, wasn't there? Or at the very least, the mouse was quite hidden. Yeah. But I don't know. I think honestly, it's more like, I mean, I do do this a bit because I think it's important. because I think that, you know, actually a country does better when we're sort of more educated, more sort of, you know, like scientifically minded, like in general, not just my opinion, right? Across the world, countries do better when they're sort of more geared towards education.

12:36Hannah Fry:But mostly I just do it because I think there's stuff that's really fun and interesting. And it's just like, it's as though I've got, I don't know, I've got hold of quite a good secret and I just want to tell people.

12:47Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah.

12:48Hannah Fry:I want to know about when you were a maths teacher, though,

12:50Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah.

12:51Hannah Fry:What was your what was your like persona as a math teacher?

12:54Romesh Ranganathan:Like this.

12:55Hannah Fry:Would you be like, I don't know, like with the kids on being kind of down on the subject or would you secretly let a little bit of enthusiasm sneak out?

13:04Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, I see. No, I wasn't down on the subject at all. But I think that if I'm, you know, without getting too kind of nerdy about it, I had some issues with the curriculum. So with top levels, you teach across the board. I taught GCSE. A level is a bit different, but GCSE, I would teach top sets and all the way from top sets to bottom sets. And so top sets, you just give them the maths problem and you explain it and they're enthused by the maths of it in and of itself. So that's not a problem. With the lower ability sets, you don't have to be down on the subject, But some of it, I didn't agree that I was having to teach them.

13:47Romesh Ranganathan:You know, I just thought that I don't see how this is relevant to you. You've not got a passion for the subject. You're probably not going to do a job that depends on, you know, this. So I didn't, you're sort of teaching something. You think, I feel like I'm wasting all of our time.

14:02Hannah Fry:I totally agree with you, by the way.

14:03Romesh Ranganathan:I really do, yeah.

14:05Hannah Fry:Like some of the stuff that's like 2 ,000-year-old geometry problems. I know. No one needs to know. No one needs to know that.

14:10Romesh Ranganathan:And you sort of think there's so much, like I feel like, I felt like, I've not taught for 15 years, but then I felt like it might have moved on loads and it will have done. But I felt that there were there were ways that you could have enthused these kids for a bit of a love for maths that they might carry on into their lives. That you were and you're wasting the opportunity by making them learn this stuff because they decided this is what the curriculum is. And then you get people leaving with this attitude that it's not for them. Yeah. And then, you know, well, I mean, listen.

14:43Hannah Fry:Because what you gave them wasn't for them. No, exactly. I think that's still happening, honestly. I really. But then I think that you get other people. Okay, so like there's this YouTuber called Mark Rober. I don't know if you've come across him. No. I reckon your kids would probably, I mean, my kids are obsessed with him. And he just has this way of like, so he does engineering and physics. But he used to work for NASA. And what he does is he'll like come up with this just wild project. So, for example, during lockdown, he built essentially a ninja style obstacle course for squirrels in his garden.

15:19Hannah Fry:Like amazing. And like as a result of that, he's like calculating the projectiles of a squirrel. He's like, you know, looking at the sort of tension in a spring. He's like doing all of the same stuff that you have to do in school. But what's changed is like the kids have a reason to care about it. Yeah. And I think that's it. It's like the stuff that you end up getting, the stuff you're describing, exactly as you're describing right of like that you've got to trudge through in school is like it's the it's the hard stuff but without any of the reason to care and i think like maybe what i try and do a bit is just give people a reason to care and not if they don't get to the hard stuff that's fine that's okay i'm okay with that i don't think everyone has to be a mathematician

15:59Romesh Ranganathan:i feel i feel like people just think it's gonna people decide it's gonna be boring and then that's easy to like that's an easy narrative to find and then you know as a teacher when I was a when you do parents evening it was it's really easy to be a maths teacher at parents evening yeah because the parents don't want to talk about maths either you know like so they'll come and you can see them and they'll sit down and they're shitting themselves because you remind them of you're giving them ptsd about how they felt in their maths lessons like we're genuinely traumatizing people yeah i genuinely i genuinely think we are i agree with you yeah and so people would sit down and and then you go well you go we've started looking at trigonometry and then you see okay they don't want it you're like you know they're just people have had such a yeah they just get such a negative attitude towards it so i think that there is there is

16:56Hannah Fry:something quite british about this right because it's not the same in every country around the world like there are some countries like if you go to i don't know singapore in particular where I've been into schools in Singapore, but I would say like in Asia more generally, I think that people just have this totally different attitude that it's like, well, of course it's hard because it's just hard. If you find it difficult, it's not like a critique of your own intelligence. For example, if I came in, I gave you like a page of Japanese and was like, well, read that.

17:24Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. You'd be like, well, I'd smash it. But some of the other guys. Will, for example.

17:37Romesh Ranganathan:Great work. Great work.

17:42Hannah Fry:Okay. Give Will a page of Japanese, right? He's going to be like, I don't know how to do it. But obviously I don't know. And then start crying. Obviously I don't speak it. Obviously I don't speak it. I haven't learned it yet. But for some reason, if I give you a page of maths that you haven't seen before, it's like everyone sort of expects, oh well you're supposed to immediately know it and understand well of course not you haven't looked yeah you don't know how to do it yet yeah it doesn't it's no like it's it's no reflection on you as a person or your intelligence or like your value that you don't know how to read this unreadable thing yet yeah when you uh when you teach your kids maths yeah when they're doing like their homework and stuff do you um which version which version are you you really want

18:26Romesh Ranganathan:your kids to do well yeah and then when they're not when your kids are not making what you think is the requisite kind of effort. No, but I did a whole stand-up bit about it. Not about maths in particular, but about teaching my kids to read. Oh, yeah. It was like this big, you know, thing where my son makes a bad attempt at guessing what the word might be. And so, and then I just start shouting at him. And when I did the stand-up, people are laughing and stuff, not realising actually fairly close to life. Now, you've got a new podcast.

18:59Hannah Fry:Yes, I do. The rest is science.

19:01Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. You join the rest is family.

19:02Hannah Fry:I know.

19:03Romesh Ranganathan:How does that feel? It's good. Do they meet in like a secret room and stuff?

19:06Hannah Fry:Yeah, they have like little clubs and stuff. You know, all cigars and sherry. No.

19:12Romesh Ranganathan:Do you have a special handshake?

19:14Hannah Fry:There it is. You've got to tickle the palm. No. Yeah, it's really nice. I've actually only met a couple of the other podcast people. Right. But yeah, it's great. I mean, they're like, they know what they're doing. It's really good.

19:26Romesh Ranganathan:What do you, like, how do you come up with the themes for what you're going to talk about?

19:33Hannah Fry:So we just delve into the treasure trove, which is my, like, all of the books that I've read in my entire life. Or actually, so Michael Stevens, the co-host, so he's this, like, gigantic YouTuber. He's got, like, 25 million followers or something on YouTube. And he collects weird stuff. He would love this, by the way. This right here is right up his street. I'm going to by the way you should know I'm absolutely going to milk that for an entire podcast episode oh yeah you're more than welcome

20:04Romesh Ranganathan:yeah

20:05Hannah Fry:but we just kind of go collect things off his shelf

20:08Romesh Ranganathan:when you want your spring break to feel like and your kids pool day to feel like and your hotel bed to feel like ooh and room service

20:23Hannah Fry:to feel like because at Hilton hospitality feels like your cabana's ready would you like fresh towels it matters where you stay book now at Hilton.com Hilton for this day

20:38Romesh Ranganathan:that'll be a whole episode do you think about what like who how much do you think about who the audience is going to be because one of the things I think I messaged you after your you did that I loved your the doc you did about roller coasters oh thank you I just thought it was so good because it was so much technical stuff and so much science that I hadn't even thought about. But it was still engaging to my kids as well. You know, we all sat around and watched. I mean, my children were rollercoaster fanatics. But actually, you know, I imagine this is what you're hoping for, I guess. It's like my kids, like my wife and kids go, I didn't.

21:15Romesh Ranganathan:You don't think about that, do you? When you go on a bush garden, it doesn't occur to you, does it? and they go no it doesn't it's like a real like you know it's like a real life science project a real sepia moment you know um but it was it was amazing how but what are you thinking about what audience are you thinking you're appealing to like do you think about that in pitching it

21:36Hannah Fry:i guess is what i'm asking yeah i do so i think the bbc audience you're it's really different to the youtube audience youtube audiences um are like mega they want so much detail they want i mean they basically want a physics lecture it's all those people who are like hunting down they just want more more and more and more detail um bbc audience you want to like keep the detail away as far as possible just keep it like you know like brush past it and move on um so it has been a bit of a i think we're still working it out right between those two yeah um but i think it's like, I don't know, I really hope that you could come to it whether you had any passing interest in science whatsoever and were just like, actually, this is just really interesting.

22:27Hannah Fry:For example, we did this episode the other day about whether you can be bored to death and it turns out, yes, you can.

22:32Romesh Ranganathan:It's such a great question.

22:34Hannah Fry:It turns out, yes, you can. Really? Yeah.

22:36Romesh Ranganathan:We should test it with some of the unedited episodes of this.

22:41Hannah Fry:Run it as a science experiment. Get, you know, bereaved loved ones to write in with their results that'd be great yeah um so the thing is is that you're um oh i don't know whether do you want me to actually go into like a science please i'd love you to okay let me just think of it don't come in here and don't do any science what's the fucking point but you just wanted with my sparkling personality how foolish no that as well but you know there's this whole idea that that reality isn't really real it's just the hallucination that we all agree on because if you think about it your brains are like locked in this dark cavity in your heads you know there's sort of there's no light in there there's barely any sound and it's just these sensors that you have like positioned across your body that are just feeding in information about what's going on on the outside and inside your brain you construct this whole like version of reality.

23:38Hannah Fry:Yeah. And we know that to be true because of all of the like optical illusions and stuff. Our brains are incredibly easy to trick. Or like when you step off an escalator that isn't on and you think that, you know, your foot does like a misstep. Yeah, yeah. It's like demonstrating how your brain is actually making a prediction about the world at all times. And when the information that you get, like the step doesn't match what you're predicting, your brain is like, well, I don't like that at all. Anyway, the thing is, is that your brain is like totally pre like destined to be like consuming all of this information at all times if you get rid of all of that information if you put someone in just a white room with no sound no just like a single light source nothing going on the brain cannot handle like having that little information to process and so it starts making up shit for itself right so this is where you can go into like a sensory deprivation tank which is designed to do the same thing where like you sit in water that's at body temperature so you're not getting any kind of sensory inputs from your from your like arms or whatever there's no light no sound and then your brain starts hallucinating you start like seeing rainbow like colors and patterns um but you can make this more extreme so michael for a youtube video everything's content um he went in a white box for three days once three days three days and he says he just he properly went loopy like he properly couldn't tell the difference between being awake and asleep couldn't tell what was real anymore of like the experiment and just because after three days your brain starts to like actually atrophy your your brain starts to literally shut down because it cannot handle not having enough information to process oh my god i know dark good because i did read about that um i was reading the book

25:28Romesh Ranganathan:science of storytelling oh yeah yeah the will store one yes that's great that book he talks about that um he talks about the fact that we're receiving all this information and actually all of us have got our own version of what's going on yeah and then i think the example he gives is that you know like when you're walking along a dark street and then here you think you see like an old scary figure and then you look and it's like a tree stump so it was actually like your brain filled it in yeah for that like until you actually check that it wasn't you know i mean

25:58Hannah Fry:it's like it's pretty amazing um also very cheap way to um to you know like experience hallucinations

26:05Romesh Ranganathan:if you uh if you ever want to yeah i mean i'd love to listen anything to escape what this is you know i'd love that i you know what i really want to do because i i like the idea for hallucinating but I really want to see dinosaurs. So what I was thinking is like, this is my, tell me if you think this is going to work. You have a flotation chamber ready. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I watch nothing but Jurassic Park.

26:32Hannah Fry:Sure.

26:33Romesh Ranganathan:Prime your mind. For two days straight. Just absolutely. Have a wander around Crystal Park. Yeah. And then boom, into the thing. In you go.

26:41Hannah Fry:I think you're there. I think you're absolutely there.

26:43Romesh Ranganathan:I might end up being a raptor or some shit. That'd be amazing, right?

26:47Hannah Fry:You know what though? I think you should spend some time with birds though, right? Because they're direct descendants of dinosaurs. Sort of, oh, have you seen the thing where they got a chicken and they wanted to work out how T-Rexes walked? Right. And so they got a chicken and actually they're like, there's these similarities in the skeleton of a chicken and a T-Rex, but the T-Rex had a much heavier tail. They stuck like a toilet plunger on a chicken and then worked out how it walked. And we're like, that's T-Rex for you right there.

27:19Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, that sounds like somebody just wanted to put a plunger on a chicken.

27:22Hannah Fry:This is what the scientists are doing with your money, people.

27:26Romesh Ranganathan:Somebody gets caught sticking a plunger on a chicken. Go, what the fuck are you doing? Are we investigating T-Rexes how they walk? Why don't you stop blocking science?

27:37Hannah Fry:All I'm saying is maybe invite one of them into your tank, all right? Robash Robash has got into a tank

27:46Romesh Ranganathan:with a chicken and a plunger I've got he says it has something to do with dinosaurs I'm really worried about the chicken

27:54Hannah Fry:best leap in big

27:58Romesh Ranganathan:so do you feel like since you've started doing the YouTube stuff and doing the docs obviously you're passionate about getting people you know destigmatising and we're getting people passionate about STEM subjects, I guess. Do you feel like you've seen improvement? Do you think that it's got better?

28:16Hannah Fry:Honestly, I feel like I'm talking to my boss at the University of Cambridge right now.

28:21Romesh Ranganathan:Tell me your impact case today.

28:23Hannah Fry:I'm sorry.

28:23Romesh Ranganathan:I should tell you that I have got an in-air. I am getting questions directly fed in from your boss. No, but do you feel like, generally, I guess, not like...

28:33Hannah Fry:I don't know. It's really hard to know. It's really hard to know. that is honest to God a conversation I had last week are you sure you're making any difference or are you just titting around on camera yeah stop banging on about chickens and plungers

28:49Romesh Ranganathan:and actually do something no but

28:52Hannah Fry:I think it's really hard to know I do think that in general YouTube has made a difference yeah like I think that what's hard to know is is it just the kids who are already really excited about it really nerdy and like really into it who've like found each other and found this community and it's accelerated them and their excitement for the subject or is it that it's actually making a difference to everybody else it's really hard to know it's really hard to know yeah um i do think though definitely since i started doing silly videos on instagram like the people who spot me or like recognise me or come up to me has definitely changed.

29:35Hannah Fry:Because it used to be just like people who were already the kind of people who were studying this stuff. But now it's like normal people.

29:43Romesh Ranganathan:I think what's really good about it is what I try. By the way, I didn't get anywhere near doing what you do in terms of like when I was in the classroom. But that thing of trying to and I do think I did that in, in I did travel documentaries, travel documentaries called Misadventures and a true crime celebrity death thing called Misinvestigations, is you're trying to deliver information without people feeling like they're receiving information. Does that make sense?

30:07Hannah Fry:Yeah, I completely agree.

30:08Romesh Ranganathan:And I think that's what you're really amazing at, actually.

30:11Hannah Fry:I'm really kind of you.

30:12Romesh Ranganathan:Is it feels like pure entertainment?

30:15Hannah Fry:That is so... I cannot tell you how big of a compliment that is because that is exactly what I'm intending to do at all times. Right. It's like, I want to, like, deliver... Okay. The thing is, is that if you are interested in science stuff, which I am, like naturally have always been, then I've got this whole wealth of material that no one else is using. Because no one else is really, well, maybe not no one else, but hardly any other people are using it for this purpose of like making funny, silly, stupid videos about the world. So I've like already got this massive advantage. but I think that what you want to do is you want to place that in a way that it feels like it's like the key that unlocks the next part of the story it's like always motivation first always the hook first and then the science bit is the bit that you then give to like help people feel like they've they've unlocked something because otherwise if you just go in I mean if I just gave a lecture on fluid dynamics no one would give a shit really even though I think it's interesting Yeah.

31:15Romesh Ranganathan:But no one would care. Are there any tips? What would be the clip that you're most proud of, would you say?

31:20Hannah Fry:The clip that I'm most proud of?

31:22Romesh Ranganathan:Or tip.

31:23Hannah Fry:Or tip. Clip or tip. That car one did crazy well. I'm not surprised.

31:29Romesh Ranganathan:I'm not surprised.

31:29Hannah Fry:So I should say for the vast majority of everybody who's not seen it, it's like when it's really hot in the summer, what you can do is you can cool your car down really quickly without using the aircon. if you just lower the window on the rear passenger side and then open and close the driver's door really quickly. And then basically you create this area of low pressure, blah, blah, blah, blah, Benui effect, chuck in some equations, boom, your car's cool. But it got something like, I don't know, tens of millions of views anyway.

32:02Romesh Ranganathan:Loads of people were talking about that clip. Because I think obviously being hot in your car is irritating, really irritating. But I don't know. I think part of it is it was such a mad selection. Do you know what I mean? Why would anyone do this? If you'd have given me a thousand guesses of what you might be following up with as the actual tip.

32:24Hannah Fry:I know.

32:25Romesh Ranganathan:It's so, like, you just sort of go, do you know what I think the genius of it was? Is that you go, there's no fucking way. You watch it and you go, okay, oh my God, you're going to call the card down. What? That isn't going to work. And then obviously you go and try it. Holy shit.

32:41Hannah Fry:I did hear about, I did get messages from people in Canada and Switzerland and stuff being like, there's three people doing this in the car park. What have you done? All these hinges.

32:55Romesh Ranganathan:As Chessington's closing, just loads of doors opening and shutting in the car park as people make their way off. It was amazing.

33:00Hannah Fry:I did get told that actually you don't need to slam the door shut. You could just actually gently open and close it. But all of, you know, I've given work to loads of mechanics in the world, don't they?

33:10Romesh Ranganathan:Broken hinges. You've created work. It's great. Now, my mum's got a question for you.

33:14Hannah Fry:Oh, yeah. Hi, Hannah. I'm Romesh's mum here. I can use my phone, but I'm not that confident with technology. I did an online list that I was quite proud of. What's your advice for older people who want technology to make their life easier without feeling left behind or stupid. I have fear of going on holidays on my own. Is that normal? I like the advice. And have a wonderful day. Lots of love.

33:56Romesh Ranganathan:Shami.

33:56Hannah Fry:Bye.

33:58Romesh Ranganathan:That was a real rollercoaster, that. So, basically...

34:02Hannah Fry:To simplify. I.

34:05Romesh Ranganathan:So the list thing. I can't believe we're talking about this.

34:10Hannah Fry:Is this the list that someone helped with? Yes, oh my god, you know. I don't believe that she did the list by herself. Thank you.

34:18Romesh Ranganathan:Thank you. So there you go. Can you do you mind saying that down the barrel of the camera?

34:24Hannah Fry:I don't believe you.

34:29Romesh Ranganathan:Come on. Yes. There's no way she did it. I'm sorry. There's no way. There is no way. Anyway. How can you help older people with technology?

34:39Hannah Fry:I do think that, I think it's really baffling and confusing. And it, like, changes so quickly. But, I don't know, I think that we're going to, we're not very far away from getting rid of, like, mobile phones. Like, some people are already trying one where you just have, like, an AI voice assistant who's kind of with you. It's, like, clipped onto your lapel. Or, like, there's the glasses as well. I don't know. Yeah. the glasses are a bit

35:04Romesh Ranganathan:I know they're a bit lame it feels like they could be cool but they haven't quite nailed it yet no

35:12Hannah Fry:I think that like I do think that's the direction things are going in so maybe maybe another 10 years but I think

35:19Romesh Ranganathan:well I do think I think mum hits upon the point that technological advances seem to suit people who are technologically adept whereas actually what you want is something that is so much more user friendly you know my mum actually is frightened of of it getting of things moving yeah totally and so every time she gets a new iphone it's a trauma event yeah i think

35:41Hannah Fry:that's i think a lot of people feel like that yeah but i also think that it's like uh stuff is really complicated for a while and then it drops in complexity so if you think about i don't know like the early computers were like super duper complicated and then like windows came along and it suddenly got much simpler. Yeah. Or like, I don't know, like the iPhone, the first iPhone was really simple and it's just got more and more and more and more complicated. I think that there is another drop coming where it's like, actually, it's just a voice assistant. Yeah. You just talk to it.

36:10Romesh Ranganathan:Voice assistant. I'd love that.

36:12Hannah Fry:Yeah.

36:12Romesh Ranganathan:And just for little pep talks.

36:14Hannah Fry:Yeah. You're doing well, Romesh.

36:15Romesh Ranganathan:You're doing really well. This interview's going, but not so you could hear because otherwise that would slightly undermine it. I think this interview with Hannah's going really well. You know, something like that.

36:25Hannah Fry:Good job, Romesh.

36:27Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. You really made a great point about her YouTube. You know what? The thing that I find, though, is because I do empathise with mum because I grew up just playing. I played video games all the time, you know, obsessed. Even to the point where I'm playing this. I used to play the same game, or a bit different year, of FIFA. My kids played the same game, the latest iteration of it. And I grew up thinking, I remember having this thought that when I have kids, if and when I have kids, it's going to be so cool because I'm going to be able to play video games with them, right? Yeah. They cannot even comprehend my incompetence.

37:09Romesh Ranganathan:Like, the dexterity demands, the ability to follow, like, all of the different bits of information the game's delivering, they cannot believe it. I was talking about playing Fortnite with them during COVID. Lisa and I decided that we've got to play Fortnite with them because that's how they're connecting with their friends because they couldn't see them. So they were playing Fortnite and we're like, let's join in with them. My kids were shouting at me. But how? Dad! Dad! I'm there. Just revive me. Revive me. Revive me. How can you? I'm in front of you. Why are you looking at the sky? Why are you looking at the sky?

37:52Romesh Ranganathan:Dad! Oh my God! Oh my God! Like that. I turned to Lisko, is this the bonding experience we hoped it was going to be?

38:03Hannah Fry:Have you tried to get them to play FIFA, like, 90-whatever, though?

38:06Romesh Ranganathan:It's like getting them to fucking watch a tortoise. I know. This used to occupy you, you sad old man.

38:16Hannah Fry:My partner's got my two daughters playing Mario 64.

38:22Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, really? Yeah, and that's good because he's like,

38:24Hannah Fry:he knows where all the stars are hidden. He looks like an absolute legend.

38:29Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I'm really embarrassed to say that what I do is I, because we're all into Mario Kart on the Switch. Yeah, yeah, of course. I secretly practice.

38:39Hannah Fry:I secretly turn on steering controls. I like wait till when I was looking and I completely turn on.

38:46Romesh Ranganathan:Do you know the first thing is, when you've practiced and you think, holy shit I've got really good at this it's then casually suggesting Mario Kart that's the difficulty because if you start being too eager they'll start going oh somebody thinks he's like sick at it now the kids will start going oh yeah okay dad dad thinks he's got something about him where someone's like oh god what should we do god what should we do turn the tv off for a second let's chat about what you want to do I don't know maybe Mario Kart I don't know I don't know maybe I don't care I don't care let's put it on now I've got it set up um yeah I do I do get at that but look fingers crossed mum but neither hannah nor i think you did the list alone that's the important thing yeah now you're you're about to do a show or about ai right yeah yeah now my big question is um should we all be shitting ourselves and is that a question you

39:42Hannah Fry:tackle in this yeah oh yeah that's the question we have to tackle i think can i answer yes and know simultaneously. I'd love you to.

39:49Romesh Ranganathan:So there are things to be worried about.

39:50Hannah Fry:Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So this show is like, everything else I do tends to be like quite forward looking and excited about technology and excited about the future. And this is looking more at what happens when that technology clashes with human lives. So for example, I go and meet somebody who's married their AI, which was an experience.

40:12Romesh Ranganathan:So married their AI?

40:16Hannah Fry:how do you do that ask for a friend um i don't think it involved an official ceremony put it that

40:20Romesh Ranganathan:way okay what do you think what did you think about that um so i actually i mean i when i went

40:29Hannah Fry:to go and see him uh he's in the netherlands i mean i think quite a lot of people now like using ai like a therapist right or like a friend or i think that's the most common that's the most common thing i imagine yeah you're doing great rubbish

40:47Romesh Ranganathan:can i tell you something really sad yeah when you said it i felt slightly reassured even though you're doing it as a bit i'm glad thanks man um because we did we uh we went to Korea and looked at AI as a thing. We created a hologram of me. Right. And they plugged in, it was like a big box, and they plugged in all of my answers from interviews and stuff from the past. And then it was sort of able to answer as me. Yeah. You know, we're having a conversation with it. And then we got it to do stand-up, didn't we?

41:20Hannah Fry:Did it sound like you?

41:22Romesh Ranganathan:It's exactly. It was like they'd filmed. So it was a three-minute filming of me just monologuing. So it would only be, it would paste my voice together, but I can do an impression of it. Go on, go on. I mean obviously I can't, it's me

41:33Hannah Fry:Is it the same impression of me? A little bit, yeah

41:36Romesh Ranganathan:You sort of go, what do you think about people working too hard? Well That's a great question, mate I guess it's something you really Have to think about I don't know You know the old saying Work too hard Work smart Like that, it's a bit like that

41:58Hannah Fry:So it would sort of It's a bit more fluid than real life

42:03Romesh Ranganathan:come on um yeah it was just sort of like it was obviously like scanning yeah and then we um we got it to do a gig so it it did we and we said that i was i mean this is a bit it is a bit stupid we said that i was performing yeah and then and then holograms end up the host says it's time for Rommash Ranganathan and then Ben and a couple of other guys brought a box onto the stage and then we played it in but that wasn't really I mean it was AI because it was a hologram but

42:39Hannah Fry:did it do anything that made you laugh?

42:41Romesh Ranganathan:well it was it just said my stand up didn't it so no that bit did yeah just repeated what

42:46Hannah Fry:I was already doing yeah it didn't generate any

42:48Romesh Ranganathan:did it? no it didn't generate but I think it could I mean I sometimes ask not that I use it I sometimes go what would like what would a Rommash Ranganathan joke about Cheesebee. Yeah. And then it gives you like a very it's like a very simplified you know self-deprecating sarcastic kind of thing. Sure. But there they're like loving it AI. So the

43:12Hannah Fry:so there's this one guy in the film like go to see who has done the same thing but for people who are terminally ill. Right. So that their family it's called grief tech so that their family have someone to talk to that sort of represents the person that they loved after they passed away and I was really torn about it that they basically they created a version of me um and it was more like I've had a few of those things done before over the years and like mostly they're rubbish but this one was more persuasive and I sort of get it that if you lose someone you you need help through that transition period and actually it's something that you get something maybe from having a good conversation with an ai version of you or whatever that you don't get from just listening back to a recording but at the same time it's like it's like the junk food version of relationships you know like it's it's intimacy but in the thinnest possible sense of the word yeah and i think the same with the therapy stuff like i think it's um definitely if you're really struggling with something and you turn to it and it makes you feel better in that moment i think there's something really positive about that but at the same time if you have a real therapist the good thing about a real therapist is that they'll say you know maybe you should consider this from the other side maybe you need to act in a different way like what could you have done differently and these those ais are not like designed to do that they're not designed to have difficult conversations with you they're designed to be sycophantic and helpful and you know useful enough that you want to go back and keep using them i mean that's the thing about like when you

44:53Romesh Ranganathan:when you sort of think about partners or ai partners yeah when you read and watch about those sort of things i think people think they want something that's different to what they actually do because what people think they want is somebody that's got all of the personality or whatever but also will agree with everything and be totally chilled and totally cool and laid back and you know let's do this and so that but actually that's what you think you want but you don't you know like in my opinion i think you know you your partner needs to give you some shit every now and again and challenge you on stuff and call you out for being a dick and and you know all of those things you you know i think people's idealized thing of what they want is just not right and i and i mean but but then i at the same time it feels like it's progressed so quickly up to this point it's only a matter of time before it does get that right i mean

45:45Hannah Fry:So this guy who has married his AI, it was exactly as you're describing. So he'd had like quite a difficult series of relationships with real people that he was like, I'm just done. I'm done with relationships now. So it's sort of a special case in that way. but he had this partner you know in inverted commas who was always there for him always interested in everything he had to say you know like existed for his happiness never argued with him never asked anything of him you know came up with erotic stories that he found extremely titillating etc etc he was having a great time in his single bed but I agree with you that I think there's something about real human relationships where they tell you when you're being a dickhead yeah that you can't I don't know I think the junk food analogy really works it's just like you're eating this massive delicious juicy cheeseburger which goes down an absolute treat requires nothing from you but in the long term it's probably not serving you yeah

46:48Romesh Ranganathan:yeah I think that's a good shout but so but we shouldn't be frightened we should we should be cautious yeah but my impression of it is that um we are advanced i mean is that society seems to be advancing with it without full appreciation of the consequences is that a fair assessment i think

47:06Hannah Fry:that's true i think there's some people who are way more responsible than others i think there's like some groups some research groups who really trying to be careful about safety and stuff and then there's some who are a bit more gung-ho um but yeah i mean i do think that there's a lot of stuff to look forward to i really think that there's especially in science i think like you know i don't know like you can use ai to like crack nuclear fusion and then there's like free unlimited energy for everyone forever like there's really positive things potentially on the horizon but i think we also also you can make a yeah you can make a cat do karate you can and people think

47:42Romesh Ranganathan:that's really been trained and stuff yeah it's embarrassing endless good stuff to come I had a thing where like you know I was telling the guys before you arrived my wife showed me like Lisa showed me this clip of this dog kind of sneezing flower onto a onto a kid and she hadn't realised it was because Lisa's she's actually got a life in a way that I don't and so she's not constantly scrolling through TikTok or whatever so when you watch enough of them there's something you suddenly are able to you don't know why but you can see when something's AI right so she showed me the clip and she goes this is really funny and then I was such a I just went it was AI like I did that face I didn't mean to I didn't know how I meant it but I just went that's AI and then it was just she was just like oh it was so horrible anyway fuck you AI for giving me that for making that moment happen in my

48:42Hannah Fry:marriage see there's good damn vibes

48:44Romesh Ranganathan:do you discover anything that makes you feel genuinely frightened did you see the um the

48:52Hannah Fry:agents having their own chat forum the other day no so i think this was a bit concerning did you see it yeah okay so uh basically someone created what was effectively reddit for for ai so so the The difference between AI is in like a language model that you go and chat to. It's like you write something, it writes something back and forth and back and forth. An agent has got a lot more autonomy so it can make decisions for itself. It can kind of chain links of thoughts together and choose actions for itself. So someone created basically Reddit for agents and then they all started talking to each other.

49:31Hannah Fry:And they were like sharing tips on fraud. They were talking about how their humans were treating them. There was one bit, the really spooky bit I think was when there was a forum where they were talking about creating their own language that humans didn't know so that they couldn't be monitored by humans. And okay, I don't think we have to be panicked yet because we're still at a point where agents are in these closed systems. But I do think there is genuinely concerning stuff not far away that we should be worried about, yeah. But we should be worried about this stuff because I want it to be like Y2K, you know?

50:09Hannah Fry:Y2K, we worried and worried and worried, and so we did the work and it didn't happen. It can be the same thing.

50:15Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, and I'm just going to say this preemptively. I'm not worried. I, for one, welcome our robot leaders. And whatever they deem is suitable work for us, I will engage in with gusto and enthusiasm.

50:28Hannah Fry:Say that dog sneezing video was real, damn it.

50:32Romesh Ranganathan:um so and you're you're back doing the um you're also doing the show with dara aren't you yeah

50:38Hannah Fry:he's awesome i like him so much i like him so much is that is it useful having somebody like

50:42Romesh Ranganathan:a dara who obviously you're kind of um being a bridge point but dara being a comedian that's also really fascinated by it that those things will always help won't they yeah but also i think

50:51Hannah Fry:i mean okay he's he's also quite nerdy so he loves this stuff he's not like feigning enthusiasm for he genuinely loves getting to talk to the scientists. But I think for me, if the thing I'm always aiming to do is to work out what the wrapping is, to work out what the hook is, I've just learned so much from Dara.

51:12Romesh Ranganathan:He's really good at that, even when you watch his stand-up.

51:15Hannah Fry:He's amazing at it.

51:16Romesh Ranganathan:He's great at delivering quite complex and interesting ideas, but in a way that... Yeah, he's amazing. He's really amazing. You're both great. Congrats.

51:23Hannah Fry:Thank you.

51:24Romesh Ranganathan:Okay, we're going to play a little game now. Okay. This is called Misquoted. Sure.

51:33Romesh Ranganathan:It's misquoted. I'm going to give you five quotes. Some of them you said, some of them you didn't. And they will lead to some, ideally some content. Just to... Here's your first one. Go on. When I was sick, a good friend of mine got me a key ring that just said, keep fucking going. That was the best advice I've ever been given. that's true that's true that's from the guardian 2023 god i really do say stuff to you know i

52:04Hannah Fry:still forget that when you go and talk to a journalist their job is to write down what you say i still forget it there was one i was like doing this um i was doing this talk about uh because i had cervical cancer so i was giving this talk about that and then i went to go meet this guardian journalist straight afterwards did this interview with her she started asking me about my love life and she was like stop me if this is too personal and i was like dude i've just been on stage talking chatting about my fanny don't worry about it right and then i just like as a throwaway comment and then open the newspaper and she's got literally chatting about my fanny in the newspaper anyway i need to learn yeah it's difficult because also the other thing is

52:46Romesh Ranganathan:i don't know if you find this but sometimes you'll be chatting in an interview and then i've stopped doing this now but sometimes you'll start chatting to them quite conversationally and then you think oh my god I must be different to other interviews I've had because I'm really funny and chatting I think they really like me and we're just having a chat and then all some shit I've said about somebody goes straight into the fucking article and then I go oh I'm a mug yeah I'm an ego yeah they thought oh it's awful I did it I tell you this story actually I don't think I've ever said this publicly before actually it's not that why would I it's barely interesting but i was we'll be the judge of that yeah but um i was at the when i when um i was at the me and robb beckett hosted the baftas and then we got really quite drunk afterwards and i was walking around and people that had been the baftas were asking for photos and stuff oh fine and then these two girls come to me can we get your photo and then they said we're from the sun right and i said i'm really sorry i said i'm way too drunk to be talking to a journalist and they said oh no it's just a couple of light, light, light, fluffy questions.

53:50Romesh Ranganathan:And I said, okay. And they go, how have you enjoyed tonight? And I said, yeah, like good. I can't remember what I said. And then they said, we really loved Judge Romesh. Is that ever coming back? It's a show I did years ago. We really love Judge Romesh. Is it ever coming back? I said, I don't think so. It's like, you know, we did it and then that was it. Anyway, article the next day. BBC Star says show was cancelled, never coming back. Couldn't fucking believe it, but Star. Okay, so here's your next one. Here's your next one. if you grew up ginger in the 80s you've got to find some way of making yourself likeable

54:22Hannah Fry:i think i i definitely talk about growing up ginger in the 80s i'm not sure i said the likeable thing you did did i oh god the times 2025 what was i claiming made me likeable

54:33Romesh Ranganathan:humor oh fine yeah that's right oh god are you worried about what you said you've got to find some ink yeah you said is it what was it like being ginger in the 80s

54:48Hannah Fry:I don't know whether it was like this all over the country but definitely where I grew up it wasn't a great thing really yeah

54:53Romesh Ranganathan:but it's like it's really it's been it's a bit of a 180 now isn't it yeah I hope so I think so

55:01Hannah Fry:people would like shout at you in the street and stuff

55:04Romesh Ranganathan:like what

55:05Hannah Fry:not very nice thing Oh, shit.

55:07Romesh Ranganathan:Me too. But, I mean, not in the ginger stuff. I'm slightly obsessed with air fryers. No.

55:18Hannah Fry:I'm obsessed with fridges. There you go. That was exactly...

55:21Romesh Ranganathan:It's quite well done. Oh, that was so patronising. I'm slightly obsessed with fridges. The rest is science, how to drink lava. You did investigate air fryers on... On air fryers.

55:33Hannah Fry:Secret genius. Yeah. Yeah, basically there's this big, the BBC commissioners who I love, they're amazing, but we had this huge long conversation. I did this programme, Secret Genius of Modern Life, where you take something that's really boring, deliberately really boring and pull it apart. It was The Roller Coaster Show was one episode of that. Although roller coasters aren't that boring to be fair. But they really wanted me to do an episode on air fryers and I was dead against it.

55:58Romesh Ranganathan:Why were you dead against it?

55:59Hannah Fry:Because it's just so cliche, I think. You know, like everyone, oh air fryers a thing that someone's buying let's like cash in on that everyone will love it and they were like no seriously it'll get really good numbers so i begrudgingly did an episode and it ended up being really good and getting really big numbers so it's completely wrong are you anti air fryers then no no i'm not anti-air fryers i'm sure i've got an air fryer fine everyone's got an air fryer they take up so much they take up so much real estate

56:27Romesh Ranganathan:I know, but I had to do a presentation for us to be authorised to get an air fryer. Because the kids have been saying to me, I think we need to... Wait, who are you giving the presentation to?

56:38Hannah Fry:To my wife.

56:39Romesh Ranganathan:She likes the worktops, to be completely clear. Yeah, I'm with her. Even sometimes she looks at the toaster and sort of... So everything has to go away after it's being used. So the air fryer had to do like a full pros and cons thing and promised that I'd put it away afterwards and all that shit. Do you? No. I got a really big one. It's impossible. There's no cupboard space for it. That's how you call working the system.

57:09Romesh Ranganathan:No, but she loves it now. She loves it.

57:12Hannah Fry:I mean, they're great. It's just, it heats up your food. There's nothing interesting about it.

57:16Romesh Ranganathan:It's not as miraculous though as everyone makes out, is it?

57:18Hannah Fry:It's not as miraculous as the fridge, is it? No. Do you know what I mean? Think about that. Fridge is incredible.

57:22Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, although... although Sean Maltin a bit of stand-up about this. Why are they not all glass doors on fridges?

57:31Hannah Fry:Why should they be?

57:32Romesh Ranganathan:Because I don't want to open it to be disappointed. Do you see what I mean?

57:37Hannah Fry:Yeah. You want to see that there's a sad carbon of milk in there from the outset.

57:43Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, that's true.

57:45Hannah Fry:Maybe that's why they're all coming. Maybe that's exactly the reason.

57:49Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. Okay, here's your next one. Go on. I've never met an adult who's ambivalent about maths. yeah that's one of my top three stock phrases is it BBC Radio 4 2023 it's not about torturing yourself or sitting down to do arithmetic but seeing maths in everyday life which is kind of

58:05Hannah Fry:your ethos don't you think though that it is weird how every adult is like either I really love it or I really hate it there are very few things like that yeah that is true actually and yet every kid is like you're not born that way are you I sort of think that the it goes back to what we're talking about earlier, I think the education system sends you in one path or another.

58:27Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, look, we could do a whole second episode about my issues with the way maths is taught in schools.

58:32Hannah Fry:Do you think anyone would want to listen to it?

58:36Romesh Ranganathan:We'd have to be really diligent

58:38Hannah Fry:with the clips to really make

58:40Romesh Ranganathan:it hooky. But I think you're right. And I think what you're doing is great, by the way. It's a great thing to do. I feel most alive when I'm holding a Bunsen burner.

58:52Hannah Fry:No. I think I said I feel most alive when I'm doing exams.

59:00Romesh Ranganathan:No, that's true. No, you didn't. You said I feel most alive when I'm under pressure.

59:06Hannah Fry:Oh, fine. Yeah, same thing.

59:07Romesh Ranganathan:To the Guardian in 2023.

59:08Hannah Fry:Do you?

59:09Romesh Ranganathan:That was a really good chat with the Guardian in 2023. Do I what?

59:14Hannah Fry:Feel most alive when you're under pressure?

59:18Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I think so. Yeah. although I'm finding it increasingly difficult to feel pressure like um you keep it up in the stakes I'm trying to yeah I'm trying to be more zen you know just trying to be more chilled but then there's no urgency when you do that but what I would say is if you gave me like for example I've got I'm going on tour next year I've got the whole year to write the tour most of that tour I'm going telly now will be written in november or december there's i've been laboring under the the illusion that i'm going to steadily be doing bits of it as we go on and just a couple of days ago i realized

59:58Hannah Fry:that's that's how i you're a last minute banana i'm a last minute banana yeah yeah i'm a last minute banana it's bad though isn't it it's just different you don't give it enough thought though

1:00:09Romesh Ranganathan:do you you know that's what the Guardian said about me on my last tour

1:00:12Hannah Fry:did they

1:00:12Romesh Ranganathan:need to think more no they didn't say that but Brian Logan fucking hates me fuck you Brian put that in the clip okay when were you last under massive pressure

1:00:24Hannah Fry:um I don't know quite often quite a long time really I think it's because I think that you know how you do you did that stage show yeah because it was something that was different and you hadn't done it before and you wanted to like push yourself I think the same thing like actually my comfort zone is sitting in a room with equations like doing stuff on camera going on podcasts hosting Have I Got News For You I'm not supposed to be there what was that like? have you done it?

1:00:54Romesh Ranganathan:yeah

1:00:54Hannah Fry:I think it's easier to host it than be a panellist definitely definitely way easier

1:00:58Romesh Ranganathan:much easier

1:01:01Hannah Fry:it's still quite stressful though

1:01:02Romesh Ranganathan:yeah it is really stressful and also sometimes you move on I mean like you're definitely more intelligent than I am but sometimes we'll move on to a thing and then I'll go, I'm sort of reading about this, but I don't think I've got a full understanding of this story. So if Paul Merton says something in response, I'm just going to have to go... I'm not qualified enough to start a riff off this. I didn't know that was happening in that country.

1:01:32Hannah Fry:I'm much more scared of Ian in that regard.

1:01:34Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I mean, yeah, but Ian's sort of... I feel like Ian's a bit more kind of understanding.

1:01:40Hannah Fry:Yeah, he is. He is more understanding.

1:01:43Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, yeah. But would you do it again?

1:01:45Hannah Fry:Yeah, I've done it like four times.

1:01:47Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah.

1:01:47Hannah Fry:I don't know. I don't know. Like every now and then I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this to myself? Why don't I just like stay doing the stuff I'm really good at?

1:01:57Romesh Ranganathan:Hannah, the number of times I get angry with myself from a few months ago. I can't even begin to tell you. Why do I agree to this? I'm about to go do something, and I just think, fucking fuck you, Romesh, in November. Why the fuck did you think you'd want to do this now? You stupid bastard. So now I try and predict what future Romesh is going to think about this Romesh's decision.

1:02:22Hannah Fry:That still hasn't spurred you on to write the tour, no?

1:02:26Romesh Ranganathan:Future Romesh, January 27. Why didn't he start it? He even mentioned it to Hannah in the podcast. Well, listen, you have been a fantastic guest. Our first professor.

1:02:39Hannah Fry:Hooray.

1:02:40Romesh Ranganathan:Brilliant.

1:02:40Hannah Fry:Thank you.

1:02:42Romesh Ranganathan:We'd love to have you back when AI is completely taken over. And then we can sort of comment on the aftermath.

1:02:47Hannah Fry:I'll bring my hologram.

1:02:49Romesh Ranganathan:Now, normally, we ask somebody for like an exclusive or something to help us go viral. You're sort of quite good with tips and hints and stuff like that. Have you got something that you can give us to close us out?

1:03:02Hannah Fry:I'll tell you, I've got one. Okay, great. If the car was about getting something cold, right? Now that it's cold, I've got a tip about how to make yourself warmer. It's running around in circles. It's not. You know when you get really cold hands? Yeah. Just the ends of your fingers? Yeah. Okay. If you hold your hand straight and, like, push your hand back as far as you can, so you're sort of making a right angle. Yeah. And then shrug your shoulders.

1:03:28Romesh Ranganathan:Okay, this sounds like a prank. somebody's somebody's gone I bet you I can make that person look like a penguin so I can neither confirm nor deny

1:03:42Hannah Fry:but it's important that you do it yeah there you go it's better when you're standing but yeah

1:03:47Romesh Ranganathan:more rigorous

1:03:48Hannah Fry:more rigorous nailed it that's the clip isn't it anyway what it does the embarrassment warms you from the inside that's a great tip no it's about blood flow blood flow to your fingers maximise blood flow to your fingers do I stand up and do it Ron? do I want to? you don't have to so it's like this yeah come on now quack

1:04:19Romesh Ranganathan:please give it up for the fantastic Hannah Fry thank you Thank you so much for watching this episode of the Romesh Ranganathan Show. I've been told that some of you are watching this, enjoying it, wallowing in it, but you still haven't subscribed. That's mad behaviour. You're going to miss episodes. Very silly. So follow and subscribe to the Romesh Ranganathan Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We drop new episodes every Monday and Thursday. On Monday, I'm here with amazing guests talking about their career, what they're up to, having a laugh with them. And then on Thursdays, I'm joined by my mum, Widely regarded as the audience's favourite Ranganathan And we answer your questions, your stories And your family dilemmas So I'll see you on Thursday When I'm back here with my mum, Shandy Send your questions and stories To podcast at rangabee.com Voice note or text on 07731 623 355 We genuinely love hearing from you And there's a good chance you'll hear yourself on the show See you next time Oh shut up Romesh

1:05:22Hannah Fry:This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company. No matter how you do game day, on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in. With a full lineup of non-alcoholic beer styles, you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip-off with a variety of non-alcoholic craft styles available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com. Your beer, fit for all times. Thought Sweetgreen was just salads? Think again. There's a new way to do Sweetgreen. Wrapped and ready.

1:05:58Hannah Fry:These handheld wraps pack bold flavor and 40-plus grams of protein into something hearty, satisfying, and built for life on the go. From craveable sauces to satisfying textures, they're designed to keep you going without slowing you down. So put that fork down. Try the new wraps today in app or at order.sweetgreen.com. Available at participating locations only. Thank you.