Jack Thorne: Adolescence, Stephen Graham, and Anxiety

18:45Romesh Ranganathan:That's our journey in life, isn't it? My mum's actually got a question for you. Awesome. I don't know what this question is, so she sent it to Ben. So I don't know whether to apologise or not. I have no idea what is about to happen. This is amazing. This is amazing. All right.

18:58Stephen Graham:Hi, Jack. Congratulations on adolescence. I haven't seen it, but I heard a lot about it. I have a little question to ask. when you were a little child did you get into a lot of trouble if you could answer me I'll be very grateful thank you so much

19:25Romesh Ranganathan:she sort of combined it's a lot to unpick there isn't it so she hasn't watched it no but she also mixed it's my favourite question I've ever been asked

19:42Romesh Ranganathan:she's combined sounding quite light with also quite stern she's also said did you get into trouble i'd like to know so did you get into a lot of trouble no no i'm so sorry to disappoint

19:55Jack Thorne:her no i didn't really i was a good boy right i was i was frightened of my dad and i was frightened of uh my teachers and i that meant that i didn't really do anything out of line oh okay well she I actually should be delighted to hear that. I did do some shoplifting. Right, Sam. Everybody does a bit of shoplifting, don't they? But not as much as others.

20:22Romesh Ranganathan:No, I mean, I got a Lifetime band from Woolworths. Wow.

20:26Jack Thorne:Yeah, I stole a... So you were the guy that was celebrating when Woolworths closed. Yeah, I was never allowed.

20:31Romesh Ranganathan:I'm playing the long game here. One day you're going to be forced online. I cannot wait. No, I stole a Gladiator's chocolate. Well, I opened a Gladiator's chocolate medallion. Wow. In the store and ate it as I walked. I was just showing off in front of my friends. Right. And then I left. I think the security guard spotted me doing it, but he just thought it was just a kid doing it. But then I went back later on that day. I got high off my own success. And I got really cocky and I went back in and then he called me and he said, it's one thing to come in here once, but to come in again.

21:05Jack Thorne:And what was the second time was the Terry's chocolate orange? Yeah, I probably unwrapped it. I was making loads of noise.

21:11Romesh Ranganathan:I opened one of the books. I don't want that one. I've actually got a present for you. It's in front of your...

21:17Stephen Graham:Yeah, you've got it there. There you go.

21:19Romesh Ranganathan:Could you pass it to me? So this is... Wow. A selection of ET bookmarks. Oh, my God. As a little gift for you. That is so kind. Yeah, no problem. Thank you. Yeah, no worries at all. Thank you. No, no problem. them they're beautiful thanks i mean not that i didn't make them but um what do you think genuinely

21:39Jack Thorne:i love them oh it's beautiful yeah i've got be good on my wrist all right oh you are in you're in you you are a fan oh like beyond really yeah yeah my son is called elliot it's it's his total obsession yes so et is yes yeah more than it was my childhood my childhood was basically pre-ET post-ET

22:03Romesh Ranganathan:well it's twofold the reason we got you this one because when you're an ET fan but also apparently Elliot gets annoyed folding pages over in books this is true this is true

22:15Jack Thorne:but Elliot also doesn't like ET despite the fact

22:22Romesh Ranganathan:he's called how does he feel about it then being called Elliot I was about to say being called ET you didn't call him that did you

22:29Jack Thorne:he well he is E.T. because he's Elliot Thorne oh right so it's really like yeah yeah it goes deep yeah you committed

22:40Romesh Ranganathan:yeah so

22:43Jack Thorne:he just he's okay with the name but anytime we say we should watch that film again he goes no no no I've seen it once and I didn't like it and you're okay but we went to Superman on the weekend and he liked that but he preferred the original he preferred the Christopher Reeves

22:59Romesh Ranganathan:Did he? Yes. Because the thing is, I'm a massive Star Wars fan. Right. I took my son to watch The Force Awakens, which is basically the original Star Wars film sort of redone in a jazzier format, right? And so I was watching it and he was really into it. And then I thought, great, I can show him. This is my gateway to showing the original films. But they're cut for a different attention level, aren't they? Yes, yes. So the fact that he prefers the Christopher Reeve version of Superman is surprising, isn't it?

23:35Jack Thorne:Did you think, when you were choosing what films to show your kids, did you think really, because I got very obsessional about what films to show him before the age when he gets to choose. So we watched lots of stuff like Bedknobs and Broomsticks. Bedknobs and Broomsticks was his favourite film for a very long time. So we watched films that were kind of weird and from another time because I read an article which said that Pixar had damaged the way that her children watch films because they're so used to the Pixar formula of perfection, basically. Right. You know, the emotional perfection. Each one of those moments is so...

24:12Romesh Ranganathan:Like, it's lab designed, isn't it, to take you through a journey. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like, yeah, I didn't... I'll be honest with you, the ship has sailed for me. I didn't do that. And actually, so I really love Back to the Future. Right. and I didn't show it to my kids. Oh. And then we went to watch the Back to the Fusion musical. Yeah. We went to that too. Right. What did you think of it? Loved it. Yeah. I was like blown away. Yeah. And I thought it was great. And then I thought I'm going to show the film. And then I actually watched the film myself. Yeah. To get an idea of how I thought it was going to go down.

24:48Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. And then I thought I don't know if this is going to work. So I still haven't shown it to them. Well, you see, Back to the Future is Elliot's favourite film. Really? Yeah. Oh, God, you're such a better dad than me.

24:58Jack Thorne:No, no, no, no. I'm inadequate in every way. I just thought very carefully about what films to watch when. But it is his favourite film. And, yeah, two and three he also loves. But the first one is the one that means the most. Actually, I think he'd now say that three is his favourite.

25:13Romesh Ranganathan:Three is great. Three is great, yeah. Two is fine, isn't it? Yeah. It's got the trainers in and stuff, which I like. Yes, yes. And the hoverboard. Yeah, and the jaws coming out of the thing. I love that. Yeah. but it's probably the weakest of the three, I think. Yes. E.T., I went to Universal Studios a couple of years ago. Yes. And I went on the E.T. ride. Which is beautiful. It is beautiful, but do you remember the end bit? No. There's a bit just before the end of the ride where you see lots of other aliens. Oh. And it's quite mad. Oh. I don't remember that at all. So you see lots of other aliens, and they don't look like E.T.

25:50Romesh Ranganathan:They're sort of remixes, I would describe them as. Do you know what I mean? different colours and slightly different shapes and stuff. And it's a bit surreal. It's like, it's a bit weird. I would describe it as drug-fuelled, is what my initial reaction to it was. And then we had a guide, and I said to the guide, that wasn't... Oh, you spent the money.

26:13Jack Thorne:You got the person that showed you around.

26:16Romesh Ranganathan:Do you know what happened? Or did you use celebrity points and just get it for free? No, I didn't. No, I didn't get it. I certainly didn't get it. My profile is not sufficiently at a level in America where they're going to give me anything free. But actually, what did happen, it's funny you say that. So we were doing one day at Universal, and I thought, I'm just going to pay for a guide. It's a lot of money, as you know. Yes. I thought, I'm going to get this guide. And then they phoned me back 10 minutes later, and they said, are you Ramesh Ranganathan the comedian? Yeah. And I said, yeah. And they said...

26:47Romesh Ranganathan:You're heart-rising. Yeah, I was like, oh, my God, that's incredible. But they weren't offering me a discount or anything. What they said was, would you like security? Because we've seen that you're a person of profile. And then I don't need security at Universal Florida. Right. Nobody's going to bother me. Right. But there was a moment where I considered it because I just thought sort of fantasy fulfillment of walking around Universal with like somebody in sunglasses just looking around. So I did consider it. But then I thought the embarrassment factor of walking around and then the security guy going, this doesn't really feel like.

27:20Romesh Ranganathan:Does it really feel like this is necessary? So I decided against. But I said to the guide, what was that trippy bit at the end? And he said that was what the sequel was going to be.

27:30Jack Thorne:I was just about to, yes, that does make sense for what E.T. 2 was going to be. But then, yes, thankfully they didn't make it. Because it was going to be Return to E.T.'s Planet.

27:40Romesh Ranganathan:Right, yeah. But based purely on that segment of the ride, I would say I'm glad that it didn't happen. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not one of these people that think sequels are bad because you've still got the original. When people say the sequel's terrible, you've still got the original. It doesn't matter. They've not replaced it, so it's fine. Back to the future, it's a great film. Yeah, yeah. Okay, anyway, sorry, that's it. No, no, no. I didn't realise the bookmarks were going to send us on that spiral, but that's great. You're repeatedly described as being prolific. Yes. Which I've been described, not on the same quality as your work, unfortunately.

28:10Romesh Ranganathan:I would say you are prolific. Well, but you said you hate that term.

28:13Jack Thorne:Yes, I do, yes.

28:14Romesh Ranganathan:Do you like that term? The thing I have more of a bugbear with is people sort of saying to me, you work really hard because I don't feel like I do work very hard. The truth is, you know, I've said this in my last stand-up show, I work a lot, but I don't work hard because everything I do is like a lot of fun. So to me, actually, I have a problem that I'm addicted to doing it because I enjoy it so much. So sometimes I forget that I'm actually like, this doesn't feel like work. Do you know what I mean?

28:40Jack Thorne:But also, I think the way that I think we may be a little similar is that we both feel incredibly lucky. Yes, 100%. 100%, 100%, yeah. I remember I was at the pilot of Taskmaster. Were you? Yes, because Frank Skinner's my brother-in-law. Right. And so he was like, you should come along to the pilot of this. And I'd not seen you before. Right. Taskmaster was the first time I saw you on TV. And then you just, and we were like, who's that guy? He's incredible. My wife knew you because my wife's in comedy. Right. And then watching you explode and just enjoy every minute of it, I think I understand that.

29:20Jack Thorne:And that's, you know, I work really hard. I don't enjoy all of it.

29:24Romesh Ranganathan:But I work really hard because I feel so lucky. I know. I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? It's like, is that people say, you know, you're doing loads of work. But the thing is, and I think this is exactly what you're saying, is that you just go, I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this thing. Like, it's amazing. Why would I not take all the opportunities to do it more? Do you know what I mean?

29:45Jack Thorne:Absolutely. I was working until half ten last night. Right. And I started, you know, that was the end of 13 hours of sat at my computer. Yeah. But I genuinely went to bed going, I can't do this every day. Yeah. But I really enjoyed today. Yeah.

30:02Romesh Ranganathan:You do that amount of work. Yes. And the other question I get asked a lot about is actually also by friends and family is work-life balance. Yes. How do you deal with that? I have much less children than you do.

30:17Jack Thorne:I only have one. And so that makes it a lot simpler. I do, you know, I take him to school three days a week. Yeah. Rachel takes him to school two days a week. And then I put him down every night. That's my job. That's your unbreakable kind of rule, isn't it? Exactly. And I'd say I do 90 % of putting him to bed. Right. Possibly even 95%. And that's our hour, which we have a sort of like set routine as to what we do. And that's the moment when I feel like I get my connection with him. And then we do other stuff like we went to Superman last weekend and we do, you know, and we have holidays and all that sort of thing.

30:55Jack Thorne:But there's an awful lot of stuff that Rachel takes responsibility for and packing the bag. You know, that always feels like that's the job that the primary caregiver does. Yes. And you always sort of know who the primary caregiver is if they're the one that packs the bag.

31:12Romesh Ranganathan:That's like a primary caregiver test, isn't it? Yes. It's like that is because if I pack the bag, it's a lot of questions. Yes, exactly. Do you know what I mean? It becomes an operation. Lisa packing the bag happens very quickly. Absolutely. Me packing the bag requires a lot of sort of interrogation, self-doubt. There could be tears. you know and then we get there and not everything's there exactly and then Lisa will often turn to me and say it wasn't it you doing the job wasn't the time saver for me that I hoped it was going to be

31:45Jack Thorne:absolutely yeah and and the reading record wasn't there and so your kid ended up having to stay in at break and do their reading record because they're you know Sarah Barron you know the comedian Sarah Barron she um she talks about you know she's never met um a man who arranged a play date um and and you go yeah no that's true i don't think i've ever arranged a play date yeah and the idea of arranging a play date i've attended play dates yeah but the idea of arranging a play date i think i would find very difficult yeah me too i i yeah choosing where to go what time that happens exactly but also doing that thing of contacting the parent and going my kid likes

32:23Romesh Ranganathan:your kid do you want to hang out my kid likes your kid yeah you're putting yourself out there aren't they? Exactly. It's difficult. It's difficult. Yeah. And then they come back and they say, oh, he's quite busy. Yeah. And you go, it's him. Yeah. This feels like a brush off. Exactly. Exactly. Does your kid not like my kid as much as my kid likes your kid? I feel like if I was doing it, I'd send a follow-up text message going, look, this isn't going to get back to him, but just be real with me. Is this a taste thing? Because if it is, that's absolutely fine.

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34:29Romesh Ranganathan:Now to me and I can say this to you and you'll feel uncomfortable but to me you're supremely talented and excellent at what you do you know you've got the track record to bear it out but one of the things that I think we've got in common is a deep and heavy set imposter syndrome Yes Yes Now I mean you even talked about hiding in the toilets at the London Film Festival to avoid speaking to anyone everybody yeah so what do you have any idea where this comes from have you been able to deal with it better i mean first of all what what happened at the london film festival so uh it was i'd won

35:05Jack Thorne:best newcomer right and then i was invited to a party afterwards uh and i went to the party i realized i knew no one there i did the the walk around the party that you do and then i was like I can't be here anymore. So I hid in the toilets for an hour and then, and then left.

35:28Romesh Ranganathan:When you hid in the toilets, were you thinking I'm waiting to pluck up enough courage to. No, I was, I was doing the time before,

35:36Jack Thorne:before it would be appropriate. It felt like doing an hour at a party is okay. And then, you know, but I went to a party on the weekend with Rach and my first thought was we need to leave. Yeah. I mean, but that's not to do with imposter syndrome.

35:51Romesh Ranganathan:and that's just to do with social anxiety. Well, it's so weird because I have that social anxiety as well. Yeah. And it's, you know, I genuinely, even if it's people I know and like, I find it terrifying. I had an experience of like, I was at Edinburgh Festival and I'd just finished doing my show and it had gone fine. I wasn't in like a dark place particularly. And I was walking through like the courtyard at the Pleasance and I saw loads of comedians that I like, Ed Gamble, like Nishkoop, like loads of people that I really like, but they're in a group. Yeah. And so I turned around and went the other way.

36:24Romesh Ranganathan:And like, it wasn't that I like them, all of them. I like all of them. I would consider them friends. But just in that situation, I couldn't bear it. I don't know. Like, I just didn't want to field questions about the festival. Do you know what I mean?

36:40Jack Thorne:I think that's one of the reasons why Rob and Ramesh work so well. Yeah. Is that he would walk into any situation. Yeah. And just go, I feel likeable. I know he suffers with anxiety and stuff too, but his anxiety works slightly differently. Yeah, it does. It's a different flavour of anxiety. And that thing of just going, yeah, I belong here. I'm going to have a good time. I'm going to do stuff. And you're more reluctant. And I love that about the two of you. That's what makes you such an amazing double act, I think.

37:10Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, thank you. So the imposter syndrome, is there any level of um is there any level of external validation do you think will quash that for you um because you've done pretty well do you know so in theory you know if because if you go to therapy i don't know if you've done any therapy or whatever but not much i've done a bit and they say to you that you have to find something in order to deal with it have to find something inside yes yes because it's much more difficult and you're like i could find something outside

37:40Jack Thorne:that would make that feel better. How about I relentlessly chase something outside instead?

37:48Romesh Ranganathan:You've sort of had like a huge level of success. Has that helped quash that or quell that at all?

37:53Jack Thorne:I'd say the biggest thing that has helped deal with that is getting married. Right. And I think that thing of having a best friend that genuinely likes me, you know, and genuinely is interested in me and I'm genuinely interested in and excited to talk to. Yeah. I think because when I went to the London Film Festival, that was pre-rage. I don't think I'd do that now. I think I'd go outside, call her, and then go back in once she'd said, it's going to be okay. You know, and I think, so I think that's the thing that's made the biggest difference to that. Did she, did you meet through work? Sort of.

38:32Jack Thorne:We met at the Cornwall Film Festival. Okay. Where we were both there because we really liked the person. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and Frank was there. So, you know, there were people that genuinely intimidated me there. Yes. And Frank was there with her because he's with her sister. Yeah. But for some reason, she just punched her everything and still does.

38:57Romesh Ranganathan:God, that's so lovely. But you have that. I do have that. I do have that. Yeah, I said that a little bit like I don't have that, but I do. Love you, Lisa. But she won't watch this.

39:10Romesh Ranganathan:So I feel personally, I don't know if this is your experience, but I do like, like my kids have got such little interest in what I do for a job, right? And so my value to them is so detached from my work. Yes. You know, and the same thing with Lisa. She watches some of the stuff I do, but not loads. She'll come to the tour and stuff like that. But more out of a sense of fragile ego needs a bit of support. Do you know what I mean? But I think you need that. I feel like you need some people for whom you're 100 % sure that whatever happens outside will not affect their opinion of you at all. Do you know what I mean?

39:52Romesh Ranganathan:Because we're so used to putting stuff out there and it gets evaluated and judged and there's numbers attached to it and stuff like that. And you can get too caught up in your value being attached to that. So then having some people that aren't like that is amazing, right? Yes.

40:08Jack Thorne:Though something I admire about what you do is you bring your family into everything. And so, you know, I've even heard you on the radio with your brother, who I think that was the only time you've done something with your brother.

40:20Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, he's done a couple of things.

40:22Jack Thorne:Yeah, but I think that that's beautiful that you do bring them in. And I saw a Judge Ramesh where it was amazing, where she was complaining about your mum's food being too good. Yes, yeah, my mum's care packages. And then you ended up on Desert Undis, and the thing you chose was your mum's food, which is quite slight on your wife.

40:47Jack Thorne:I hadn't put those things together in that way. Yeah. But I really like that, and I had a bit of that with Rach this year because we did a film together where we worked on a film together. So I totally hear you. There's something nice about people outside it, and there are people that I do have outside of it, but there's something also joyful about bringing people in.

41:10Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's just, you know, I don't think there's any level of bringing my mum in that would be enough for her, to be honest with you. I'd love to ask you about television. because I know you love television and I do too. You know, comedians on television is, is, is going through what I would describe as a extreme contraction, which is, you know, is it going, is it going through a contraction or is it changing? Is it? Well, I think it's sort of, because the sitcom is going through a contraction, but you guys do that. It always feels like this. I think the truth is what I think is it will just change to something else, but we're in a period of like not being a hundred percent sure what that looks like but you know we had when we were growing up we had the telly on all the time like it was the fire you know and and tv was like such a big part of our lives growing up as it was for a lot of people and i know you love tv what do you feel about the nature of you know you hear rumors now about people writing shows for people that will be looking at their phone while they're watching the show and it feels like tv is uh the landscape has changed a lot hasn't it yeah how do you feel about where tv is at now i mean you're coming off the back of one of the most watched

42:20Jack Thorne:things ever but i don't think we quite know what ai is going to do to us so i think that what happens next will be less to do with the death of linear television which is going to die yeah and more to do with what ai is going to do to our form right so i think everyone's start everyone's talking about you know what happens when the bbc and channel four don't exist as linear channels anymore i think what's going to be more interesting is what what ai does to our our viewing as things are able to transform themselves in an instant to be something else. Yeah. And I don't think we quite know what that's going to be.

42:54Jack Thorne:I was talking to a writer the other day and saying that I think scripts are going to be consumed in a totally different way. I think we're going to have animatics as a normal thing in a script meeting. I think film is doing really interesting stuff right now. I think TV has sort of eaten Robert McKee. You know the book story by Robert McKee? And so it's like, you know, at 15 minutes, you'll have a turn of some kind. At 30, you'll have another one. And then you're building so you last three minutes, which is the thing that makes you turn to episode two. And because people are used to that, they know that they can sort of look at their phones between minutes 16 and 29.

43:36Jack Thorne:Because it's downtime. Exactly. They're like, there'll be things growing, but the moment that needs to concentrate is there. and and that thing of keeping people from watching two screens simultaneously i think is and and and what you're talking about in terms of the unexpected in comedy yeah breaks that doesn't

43:53Romesh Ranganathan:it because you're you're not able to sit there on your phone no you've got to concentrate do you do you think that means that if you do make a show that isn't like that like are we being trained as viewers for that to be the thing that we're able to accept it's like you know the only thing we'll have his mcdonald's you know i mean and then if you have something else you're you're going to

44:12Jack Thorne:reject it or something do you think there's a danger of that yes yes okay well this is this is like that's quite sad isn't it uh anyway but it's not sad because there's going to be people that work out how to break the mold and there's going to be people that do things differently we just need to find ways to change our industry in order to empower them like michaela coles i may destroy you yes yeah you know i think the effect that show had it on future generations is really profound i think that's one of the most revolutionary shows of the last 30 years yeah but you know so we need more like that we need more michaelic calls i think she's got a show coming out this year so oh okay yeah um what are you watching at the moment uh i just we just finished watching forever on netflix yeah that was really good um uh we watched apple cider vinegar also on netflix so too much Netflix I'm trying to think this is why I'm trying to think of shows that we watched on terrestrial TV we watched Joe and Stacey we love that and we're watching Taskmaster Series 19 with Elliot and we watched the swearing version and tell him and tell him that you know it's okay some people use this sort of language

45:27Romesh Ranganathan:I tell you what's horrible is to is to see your son watching one of the later series of Taskmaster and then go oh do you know I was actually on that. And he goes, yeah, you're right. You know, to not be one of your children's favourites on Taskmaster is a horrible place. So in terms of writing, you've sort of completed it now. Have you got any more ambition? I mean, have you still got the same drive? You've got all the reviews. Everybody watched it. You got to go to Downing Street. I mean, what more do you want, man? Do you know what I mean? You're going to go to the Emmys in a bus. I want my dad to be proud of me.

46:12Jack Thorne:no i just i like doing what i do i just want to keep doing it i i i i i hope i've got other

46:17Romesh Ranganathan:stories worth telling yeah i mean i i'm glad you said that because i feel like i feel like we get so caught up in we're supposed to be on a trajectory somewhere whereas there's nothing wrong in just doing a thing because you love doing the thing right do you know i mean it It doesn't have to be part of some goal-orientated move towards, like, this is the level, this is my moment in which I go, I've done it, you know.

46:40Jack Thorne:And it's that thing of, you know, I'm trying to write a show at the moment, which is a two-person musical, which can go into any sort of space and can belong in that space. And so, yeah, going from, you know, a big show to that, but that's what I want to do. That's why I want to keep making and make interesting things. And you never quite know what's going to be the thing that catches fire. You just hope that something does.

47:09Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, that's good. I'm excited for you.

47:15Romesh Ranganathan:What is your writing process? Because is it right you go to like a hut?

47:20Jack Thorne:I've got a hut, yeah, that doesn't have – a hut is a – it used to be – It's a hotel. It's a suite. It used to have a pottery wheel in it. Right. And it was at the back of the house that we bought. Yeah. And yeah, that's where I go and it's got no Wi-Fi. And I sit in there and I hope. I type and I hope. And I work every day. Do you do like an office job?

47:46Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. Right, okay.

47:48Jack Thorne:I walk across the garden carrying my laptop in a little bag. Yeah. And then plug my laptop into the bigger screen that I've got out there and then just sit there all day and then walk back through the house to go to the loo. I'll get a glass of water. And yeah, and my wife sometimes asks, how's it going? But mostly she just nods at me and grunts.

48:09Romesh Ranganathan:Do you spend the day, as often I do, if I'm working on something, hoping beyond hope that your wife doesn't walk in and see what it is that you actually do? Because it, do you know what I mean? I remember like, yeah, just sort of occasionally I've been on like a Zoom meeting where we've been talking about something and I've gone, I think it's funny if we say Coco Pops, And Lisa sort of walked past and gone, this is your big boy meeting, is it? I had a thing where I've got an office at home. Yeah. I've got decks in there because I'm obsessed with music. Yeah. And then I put a PlayStation in there.

48:45Romesh Ranganathan:I've got Guitar Hero, the arcade. And Lisa was like, are you planning on doing anything in that room? Yeah, yeah. In that workspace. So how do you divide it up? how do you when when you're when you're typing yeah and you go i can't type anymore yeah how long how long is that i don't have a set so so my my i'm very wasteful with hours so so however i i'm accepting of whatever my distraction is do you know i mean so i i build that into my time so it's like if i if i write for 20 minutes and then i end up i don't know playing red dead redemption

49:23Jack Thorne:for an hour that's acceptable to me but what if people are going where's that script i i where's that script i need that script i need that script i'm really sorry man we're in pre-production

49:35Romesh Ranganathan:yeah but listen that's probably why you're you're doing a lot better in that regard than me is because people are still waiting for stuff um but i mean i guess for me it's like more you know I try not to put a deadline on stand-up or anything like that, but if it's a script deadline, the truth is a deadline really does – it's the old cliche, isn't it? It really does – you just are forced, don't you? Yeah. And then the idea that it's going to be rubbish because you're absolutely – it's not true. I feel like sometimes when the looming deadline approaches, actually – the truth is if you gave me a week to do something and six months, both things would be of fairly similar quality.

50:15Romesh Ranganathan:Right, okay. Wow. Okay. I would say, you know, for better or for worse.

50:21Jack Thorne:I had this conversation with a young writer that was really struggling and was like they're constantly asking me to do more stuff and I can't do it and I need a break and I don't know how to have a break anymore. And I said, the thing that you need to know, the thing that you know that's our secret that they don't know is you can write a script in a night. Yeah. It doesn't mean that you should. Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't mean that the script will be good, but you can do it.

50:45Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. And so if you need to take a break, take a break. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is another thing I really like. There's a lot of stuff about you that I relate to here. Oh, this is good. So you said that when you were bedbound, you thought that you'd written some of your best stuff. Yeah. But it turned out not to be the case. No, it was self-indulgent nonsense.

51:02Jack Thorne:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:03Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, it was awful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was – so you went away. You sort of finished and you thought, this is – Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is next level. Yeah, yeah. And then when was it you had the moment of realisation? When I read it back. Straight away as soon as you read it back.

51:18Jack Thorne:Well, no, no. Like, you know, you sit there and you write and you think, oh, this is important, this is important, this is important. And then you have a week away from it and then you read it back and you go, this is unimportant, this is shit. And, yeah, but that's the story of my life, I think, sadly.

51:35Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I mean, I had to build in. this is particularly when I wrote my first book which is like this sort of jangly sort of set of memoirs but there was no chronology to it I was just jumping all over the place I remember there were days when I would like write and I think I'd finish the day and I'd walk into the other room and say to Lisa your husband's done some pretty great stuff I don't want to brag and then I come to it the next day I deleted whole chapters of stuff I reckon I wrote over two books worth of stuff, just from that process of going. And I fell for it every time, by the way. I'd walk out going, this.

52:15Romesh Ranganathan:I know what happened last time was I came back to this and I thought it was shit, but this is really good. And I come back to it and go, what was I thinking?

52:22Jack Thorne:But don't you feel like that's every day? I'd say I write 11, 12 pages a day, of which three to four pages are useful, of which I think we end up using about one. So really, I write one page a day. So that means I write 365 pages a year. And that's my life.

52:43Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. Yeah. But what are 365 pages, though? Yeah. I know you don't want to say that. So you went on Desert Island Discs. Yes. We have another thing we have in common. Desert Island Discs. And then somebody got in touch with you saying that they thought that you might have autism. Yes. Yes. And then you went on to then get a diagnosis. Yes. What was that all like? So did you have any suspicions before doing Desert Oladis?

53:09Jack Thorne:I knew I was different. I knew my brain worked slightly differently from other people and I knew that I was profoundly shy.

53:17Romesh Ranganathan:In good ways, or when I say good and bad, I mean this in a very kind of black and white, but in ways that were advantageous or, you know. No, no, purely.

53:25Jack Thorne:I knew that I drowned in conversation in a way that other people didn't. Right. And I knew that when I was at school. Yeah. it was that thing at school of going you're having a nice time talking to each other i can see you're having a nice time talking to each other i'd like to be part of that nice time but i have no idea how to make myself nice for you right i don't know how to present myself in a way that you'll find interesting and that was that was most of my school years right um and and so i knew that i was but but but then you know that that happened and it was a it it was a phone call from my theater agent rachel taylor um rachel has was my first agent and i was her first client so like we've known each other for years yeah and and i said do you do you think there's anything in it like she said i've got to send you i've been sent this email i don't know how to deal with it right and i don't know whether i should send it to you i don't know what to do here but i i'd feel bad if i didn't tell you that it existed yeah and i said do you think there's anything in it and she went that's a that is it by the way what a hospital pass of a question that is yeah yeah and she went she went well yeah i mean

54:51Jack Thorne:and then i went downstairs to rachel my wife and said you know i've just been told this by rachel taylor do you think there's do you think there's substance to this and she went yeah and then and then the amount of people who after i got my diagnosis went i could i could have saved you some money there including including people like sam mendes like sir sam mendes and i was in rehearsals with him and I went I've just had this autism diagnosis and he went how much did that cost you just like you could have you could have just asked me I'd have told you yeah yeah so I had the same not the same thing but somebody uh I did a podcast with Tom Davis yeah yeah somebody

55:30Romesh Ranganathan:got in touch after listening to that and said I'm pretty sure you've got like some form of ADHD from the way you're talking stuff but I mean I didn't go on to get a diagnosis because I then went to a gig and it turned out every comedian had ADHD I mean it literally is every comedian isn't it yeah And it does make sense for comedy, right?

55:44Jack Thorne:The restless brain.

55:46Romesh Ranganathan:Yes, absolutely.

55:47Jack Thorne:Do you drink at all? No, I haven't had a drink since 2001.

55:51Romesh Ranganathan:So I have recent, I've had an on and off relationship with drink. And right now, as I'm talking to you now, I feel like I'm never going to drink again. That's how I feel currently. But the reason I ask the question is that I, the drink I find eases my social anxiety, right? So if I go to a situation where, and our jobs have this in common, that you end up out for an evening where you've got to do some sort of, you know, the production team would like to go out and whatever. And I would spend the first, I just find it agonizing, right? And what a drink would do is take that first half an hour to 40 minutes of me just going, I just want to like disappear.

56:39Romesh Ranganathan:It would take that away. and then somebody said to me oh you need to just uh accept that you're gonna like you need to be comfortable in the discomfort you're feeling in your own skin in those situations and i've sort of tried to wow just kind of accept that that i am going to feel a bit funky in there do you know what i mean like it's uh because i just don't go to those situations anymore i mean that's another solution i mean that's another really good solution do you know what i mean jack we have got um it's a A little game that we've got, a little mini game that we've got for you. It will be very quick.

57:13Romesh Ranganathan:But we've got some quotes that are either something you've said or something we've made up. Oh, wow. Okay. They could all be true. They could all be made up. Oh, God.

57:26Romesh Ranganathan:It's misquoted. Here's the first one. I don't trust any writer who says they enjoy the process. That's how horror films start. That's not me. Do you know that because you've got such control over, you know, or you don't agree with it or?

57:41Jack Thorne:I think it is possible to enjoy the process. There's times when I don't, but I think it is possible to enjoy the process and I don't think I'd have used the horror films bit. Okay, okay. Was that me? Oh, sorry, sorry. Sorry. That's how game works.

57:57Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, sorry. It's just I knew it wasn't you, so I was happy. I didn't feel any need to put you out of your misery. it was a bit embarrassing when I submitted my first draft of adolescence I thought I was writing a comedy yeah that's not me okay how about this one um I think London's a bit sad there's a lot of quite unhappy people and it's very goal-driven yeah that's me uh do you still feel like that

58:28Jack Thorne:yeah yeah um i wish i lived anywhere but london really yeah yeah i lived in luton for a long time yeah when i was starting my career as a writer right i lived in lute for eight years and i loved luton there was a it's a it's a it's a tricky place there's lots of things that are tricky within it but i thought there was a spirit to the place that sort of made sense to me whereas i think London is cruel to itself. I think there's lots of people that are being forced into places they don't want to go and they're unhappy with it and that sort of unhappiness goes everywhere. The goal-driven thing, is that your sort of distaste for...?

59:10Jack Thorne:I'm not sure I stand by that, actually. Okay. I think goal-driven is sort of looking at myself and I think now my problem with London is people are paying exorbitant prices to do jobs they don't want to do. You know what I mean? I feel like, you know, that they're stuck in a rent sort of spiral and that makes me unhappy now rather than seeing lots of people like myself. Yeah. I think I was seeing myself there with the gold-driven stuff.

59:34Romesh Ranganathan:Okay. One more. Yeah. I don't like small spaces, and I've never told anyone this, but I don't much like pigeons. That's from Harry Potter and the Custard.

59:51Romesh Ranganathan:so no that's not me that's harry potter yes cursed child was great oh god that was so good um oh thank you very much so like i so cursed child my my eldest son is harry potter obsessed and he was peak harry potter obsessed a few years ago and so i arranged uh what i did i bought the tickets and i did it as a surprise i woke him up one morning and i said we are going to watch the cursed child so we went to watch the first part went for lunch went to watch the second part and oh man like i mean you'll know this but watching him go through experience of watching that is probably one of my favorite experiences i've ever had that's that's awesome thank you Awesome.

1:00:37Romesh Ranganathan:Well, thank you very much. It was just amazing. And I wasn't as familiar with Harry Potter. I don't think you can be as familiar with Harry Potter as there were the people in the audience because somebody would like exhale in a certain way and they'd go, that means da-da-da-da. And I'd go, I understand that. It was incredible. It was incredible. Okay, I've got the final thing for us. It's final question time. I'm going to give you two options. Okay. Yeah, two options. So the first option is it would be great for this if we had some sort of viral moment or exclusive. Okay, wow. So can you give us some sort of exclusive that you're also happy to go out or something you've never said publicly before?

1:01:17Romesh Ranganathan:Or you can answer this question. If you could steal one scene from any play, film or TV show and claim it as your own, what would it be? So it's up to you which you answer.

1:01:29Jack Thorne:I mean, I'd like to have written The Wire series for. I think that that's perfect. so i'd like to have written that whole thing in terms of one scene yeah the last um the last scene of love's labor's loss which is episode 13 of series one of er uh which is mark green going home on the train yeah and he puts his head against the glass and there's no words in it i like scenes with no words in and it tells a huge story of heroism and i i think that that's that's remarkable in terms of an exclusive yes i'm not sure i'm not sure i can deliver for you no but you've delivered the answer to me okay you've met your part of the deal when you mentioned star wars earlier you know i was fired from star wars episode nine no i didn't know that so what happened well i can't talk about that because i signed an nda but i can't say i was fired from it which I think I've not said I think I've said that in an interview before but that's pretty good

1:02:34Romesh Ranganathan:that's a good tidbit and I can tell from your eyes that it was horrible I've inferred and then the other thing is everybody's asking if there's going to be an adolescence too is that something you're interested in or is it going to happen

1:02:53Jack Thorne:we're not going to tell the Miller story again So Jamie's story has been told. That's done. And we would like to work together again. We'd like to use the one-shot template in some other way. And we are trying to work on ideas. Steve and I are talking quite a lot as we're working through ideas, but we're also talking about other stuff too. Fantastic.

1:03:16Romesh Ranganathan:Listen, it has been. I mean, I'm such a fan. It's been such a pleasure and an honour to chat to you. Thank you. It's been an amazing chat. so thank you so much. Thank you for having me on. I think I'm an odd guest and an odd booking but I'm very grateful you booked me all the same. But listen, you've been a great guest and more importantly you're available. You know? And that's what we like here on this show. No, you've been incredible.

1:03:40Jack Thorne:Love it. That's great.

1:03:44Romesh Ranganathan:Thank you so much for watching this episode of the Ramesh Ranganathan Show. Now, I hope you don't mind me getting serious for a minute but I've been told that some people are watching this podcast enjoying it and still haven't subscribed. And that is, well, first of all, it's unacceptable. But secondly, you're going to miss episodes, which is very silly. So follow and subscribe to the Ramesh Ranganathan show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We drop new episodes every Monday and Thursday. On Thursdays, I'm joined by my mum, widely regarded as the audience's favourite Ranganathan.

1:04:16Romesh Ranganathan:Sorry, Dinesh. And we answer your questions, your stories, and your family dilemmas. Send your questions and stories to podcast at rangaby.com. Voice note or text on 07731 623355. We genuinely love hearing from you. And there's a good chance you'll hear yourself on the show. That'd be exciting. A little bit of fame for you. You can walk around looking at members of the public like I do, like they're lesser human beings. See you next time. Lesser human beings. See you next time.

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