Louis Theroux On Internet Culture, The Manosphere & Getting "Cooked"

10:14Romesh Ranganathan:You're not the same. The way you've come in here and chatted to me is not the same as how you went into his place and started talking to him, is it? You're giving him more space to kind of...

10:23Louis Theroux:Of course, yeah, because I'm trying, as you say, I'm trying to give him a bit of space. And I'd like to be, I'm attempting to be friendly, charming, respectful, but also journalistic, appropriately passive. Like it's not my, it's not my, so it's not my performance that we're interested in, right? We're interested, my performance, such as it is, is only a way of trying to elicit something interesting from him or from between us. Does that make sense? Yeah. So I can't be the biggest thing in the room. I know it's an odd phrase, but.

10:58Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah.

10:58Louis Theroux:what I just said.

11:00Romesh Ranganathan:How did you find that style of doing it?

11:04Louis Theroux:Which do you mean the style of him filming with me or like because I think.

11:07Romesh Ranganathan:No I mean I mean you're kind of.

11:10Louis Theroux:Of that project in particular. No no generally.

11:12Romesh Ranganathan:I don't want to be reductive over what you do but you know. Please you can't I don't mind if you're feeling that. Well you. What would be the reductive thing to say? Well I don't know I don't think I'm going to be reductive but I'm about to try and summarize what you do. do it oh my god pressure well you know it's not that i think i think you you ask very insightful questions and then you know exactly how much space to give them in order to answer that and then you will prod your instincts to prod are amazing actually in terms of you seem to you've you've you've mastered knowing when to leave leave them and then they'll say something else which is revealing and then you know when to sort of give another bit of stimulus that is i think that is what you're really good at doing was that always the intention or did that evolve or you know what was the what was the journey of that the first thing that i'm struck by is what i'm thinking about is that actually as much as it might look it does look when i look at

12:19Louis Theroux:back somewhat haphazard um and you know a little bit grabbed the camera work is all uh on on the shoulder um it's the the situations unfold a slightly messy verite style right and i'm you know jump cuts or whatever or strange changes of perspective but um actually a lot of work goes into putting it together and a part of that work is attempting to make my position in the film kind of reasonable, coherent, cogent. Does that make sense? So there's a sense in which...

12:56Louis Theroux:There's a sense in which the me you see on screen is a construct created... I'm not trying to be pretentious, but a construct created by a team of people, including the director, the editor, the producer, the exec, and myself. In terms of... So you're seeing... And that's the best... So what you see is the best we can do as well. If you look at me, you're like, he's a bit of a dick. You're like, a lot of work has gone into making me not look like too much of a dick do you know what i mean yeah which may shock some people but i think for me it goes back to the idea that i was interested in exploring people who's who were in some way taboo who outside the mainstream whose beliefs were extreme um and and that part of that without going too deep into my psychology like it's obviously something to do with my need to be around oh not need but that's what i enjoy is like that experience of being with the other you know what that that's as being with people who's who were somehow judged by the world and sort of measuring myself against them but there was never really the case that i thought if i just leave long pauses then it will be really good you know what i mean it was never that yeah and in fact um in general i am trying to have a consistent take on something I'm trying to figure out where are the soft bits, metaphorically, where are the tender spots in their armour or in their worldview, and I just keep kind of pressing on them.

14:24Louis Theroux:Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.

14:26Romesh Ranganathan:And have you ever, when somebody says something that you find questionable, you're not front-footed about your, You just present, gently present a counter argument.

14:44Louis Theroux:Okay, so that's true. I think I've become a little more, I think I've become a little more robust in some of my inquisitorial style. Early on, I was just so nervous, having been given a shot at being a TV presenter and feeling so underqualified that I was just like, I just need to get in there and get them to like me, even though there'd be extremists or members of cults, I'd be like, I just need to get in there. So when is the spaceship landing? You know, literally, and at what time? And will the aliens look like humans? And I just wanted to fly under the radar. But increasingly, nowadays I'd be a bit more, not exactly knock it off, but what's your evidence?

15:34Louis Theroux:And in this setting, for example, in the Manosphere, it's clearly part of my job to try and rebut the arguments and display the ways in which what they do is antisocial or toxic or whatever. But I also, I can't, I'm always nervous of losing the access or going south too early on. It's a very finely balanced thing. Because if on day one, I interviewed Joe Exotic, right? And he was someone who's, you know, your point about tester questions, like he was someone who's very, very sensitive. And early on, I thought, well, this was 2011, 10 years before the Tiger King. And I was the first camera team that went there.

16:21Louis Theroux:Mine was the first team. And I thought, oh, he's going to be outlandish. And he's got two boyfriends at the time. And he had like 400 tigers. And then within a few minutes of talking to him, and I was like, because the key question there is, How much do you think the Tigers like being in a tiny cage for their entire lives? Brackets, probably not that much. I mean, I'm answering my own question. Although there's more that can be said about that. He claimed that they liked it. I don't know. I don't think so. But in asking the question, it was like, oh, I could already tell it bothered him. The question bothered him.

16:57Louis Theroux:And then I had to slightly dial it down a bit. so you're sort of having to feel the vibe and see what how much you can say how early

17:06Romesh Ranganathan:but then if they're if they're really super sensitive then it's then difficult to make a

17:12Louis Theroux:show yes i've had that right i'm i'm i um i've filmed a doc well it was never completed but i began filming a documentary with ike turner um who was married to tina turner and was in fact a legend in his own right musically the first ever rock and roll record uh was by ike turner 1955 i think and um but he's more famous or became more famous for his abusive behavior in his relationship with tina and they made a movie out of it called what's love got to do with it and he was played by lawrence fishburne have you ever seen it no i'm not saying it's actually worth a watch but his behavior is horrific to observe um anyway i thought well that's interesting to see a guy the term cancelled wasn't really used then but he'd basically been mega cancelled and i thought it'd be interesting to see to be around with him and then within a few hours of being with him i realized oh he can't handle any questions about not only about was he abusive or but even about tina tina wasn't a subject that could easily be brought up oh really but we filmed three or four days and then we pulled the plug because he just couldn't he couldn't handle so So what would he do?

18:23Louis Theroux:Anything relevant to what the audience was expecting. He would, okay, I said something like, he handed out these leaflets and they would say, they had a picture of him and it would say, I still like Ike and he'd sign them. So if anyone recognised him near where he lived in San Diego, he'd give them one. So I thought, okay, maybe this is my opening. And I said, why did they say I still like Ike? Reasonable question. Yeah. He goes, what do you mean? I said, well, it sounds a little defensive Like, is that because of everything that was You know, that took place between you and Tina Like, so very hesitant Kind of gentle approach To the issue And then on the A few minutes later on the radio mics Our sound recordist Picked something He says, I think you should know He just called his agent And said one more bullshit question like that And I'm out of here yeah it was that whole thing you know you you know this from making tv right like sometimes you find out from the sound records they overhear the person yeah that fucking english guy's a fucking asshole and you're like ow that hurts i thought it was going all right i didn't say that i've had that other i have had that from other people like fucking english assholes fucking with that lamb is asshole you know and uh you're like whoa no it doesn't happen that often and so after that i realized oh and i the scary the scary thing there was that i'd had no um real inkling from i that he was as upset as he was so he was very hard to read yeah in his own weird way it became an insight into his power as well because he was he was he was exquisitely attuned to um body language or behavior like he you could see how how he exacted a kind of control over people through his sensitivity many cult leaders in general you think of this as being robust narcissists but in In fact, they notice everything.

20:20Louis Theroux:They're constantly reading in the room to see what's coming from where. And that's how they affect their social control.

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21:55Romesh Ranganathan:LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Why do people still... Because when you started doing it, not an unknown quantity, but people don't know what you're going to do. I would say I was unknown. Yeah. Definitely. now it must be difficult right i'm like for example with you know we would talk about inside the manosphere in more detail but that in principle i was surprised that they agreed i was slightly surprised that they agreed to do a documentary with you because you're you know and and you you talk about it in the in the actual doc that there they could there's a downside yeah

22:32Louis Theroux:there's a downside here's the thing all of these uh approaches for access have positives and negatives for them uh and by the way like i i'm i don't doubt that i'll be criticized from people in the manosphere who say you made us look like a bunch of idiots or tried to but i think i'll also be criticized by people outside the manosphere saying why are you giving these people a platform why are you giving them more access uh to a huge platform like netflix so that's part of the calculus clearly is if the question is why would they agree they'd agree because they're looking for for reach or they haven't googled me that that can't be discounted yeah in fact what our opening sequence is sneaker one of the biggest figures in the space yeah he's he's asking me a few hours later and and then he goes he sees that i've made like a hundred documentaries on the google home page and you just see him live on stream going oh shit it's the bit where all of the tiles come up yeah which yeah i liked that it's like i thought he was just a random and he's actually made like a you know 50 or 60 different films but um uh so there's that but then the other part of it is people googling me and thinking do you know what read the wikipedia page uh do you know what this might be okay this might be okay and and he's He goes, I think he said something, Justin Waller's a, he's a guy who's in one way monogamy, a term they use a lot, which is the men can have sex with relationships with anyone they want while being married or in a single committed relationship with a woman who can't have sex with anyone else.

24:14Louis Theroux:They call it one way monogamy. In fact, his and his wife says she's fine with it. but he said like at the end the end of our film we had shot two or three days with him and at the end he goes like I know you're gonna I can't I know you're gonna make me look like an asshole or something like that I know you're gonna skin me alive in your show and that's fine you do whatever you want with me because I've enjoyed it so much something like that really? yeah yeah he would just say like whatever you want to do is fine I'm so relaxed about it I find that incredible I know but in a way it was kind of maybe it was I was like, what?

24:50Louis Theroux:That was confusing. But then I thought maybe that's like an alpha maneuver. Like nothing you can do touches me.

24:58Romesh Ranganathan:You're so far away from somebody that I care about. Maybe. I don't know.

25:02Louis Theroux:It didn't feel unfriendly. Right. It felt more, I don't know. I don't quite know what it was. I think he was trying to be gracious, but then also it was slightly a power move. Because obviously the biggest guy in the space, in that whole Manosphere community, is Andrew Tate. And when we started on it, I thought, well, probably we might get Andrew Tate. And over the year of filming, I was messaging Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate quite a lot back and forth. And he was like, maybe I'm going to do it if you pay me. And I said, we're not going to pay you. He said, well, why would I talk to you? You're not relevant anymore.

25:40Louis Theroux:and then he sent me a, you know, they can do those Google graphs and they show how much you've been Googled over like four or five years. And he goes, I'm, and there was like a, I think it was a blue line. It was up here, quite high. And then there's this tiny little flat red line at the bottom. It goes like, I'm blue, you're red. He, like, I was like barely registering. No one's been Googling me.

26:06Romesh Ranganathan:But that might be because they already know who you are.

26:08Louis Theroux:Maybe.

26:08Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, it could be the opposite is true. Maybe. A lot of people are Googling who the fuck you are, mate.

26:12Louis Theroux:At the very end, I don't know if he had looked. At the very end, through some weird glitch, my line went above his. So I screenshot and circled that and I said, I'm literally more relevant than you are. I felt pretty gangsta.

26:26Romesh Ranganathan:That's good. Can I tell you this? Inside the Manosphere, I first found out about this from the other end of it, which was HS Tiki Toki's post about it, right? Right, yeah. Like a lot of people. Yeah, because I had... You must have a young algorithm. I must. Well, I've got three boys. Right. They are across, you know, H.S. Tiki Toki's, your Ed Matthews. How old are your boys? 16, 14, and 11.

26:52Louis Theroux:So I've got 18, 20, and 11. Right. So similar age slice.

26:58Romesh Ranganathan:So I start seeing you in the background of H.S. Tiki Toki videos.

27:05Louis Theroux:And did your kids know who I was? Yes. And they're like, why is Louis getting owned by HS? Well, the truth is, my kids aren't actually... Which is what mine said. Right. You say Louis, they said dad. So why, dad, why were you getting owned by HS?

27:25Romesh Ranganathan:Well, it was... I actually... To be honest with you, I was slightly worried for you. Yeah. Because I thought this is the first time that Louis is doing something where they're just going to document the other... they are just gonna you know you're normally talking to people who aren't delivering their side of it in that way yeah and he is filming you filming yes he was and and so there was i was looking at the comments and there's lots of comments about um well you're showing the real story here i can't wait to see how they cut this up to make you look terrible you know and all of this and first of all i was amazed that you were so calm about that happening because bear in mind that netflix are paying loads of money for this i know you were so calm when you were being

28:06Louis Theroux:eviscerated live on stream. Wasn't it painful having your ass handed to you on a plate like that? I loved how relaxed you seemed. That's a very, what is that, like, backhanded compliment?

28:19Romesh Ranganathan:No, but what I mean is you seemed... No, I appreciate that. You seemed very, you seemed completely unflappable, right? And actually, I thought that was very, I think it was really disarming because I think they wanted to, I think a lot of it, they wanted to be like a mic drop, like, got cameras on you now. and sort of and you didn't I don't think you gave them what they wanted uh well I've heard

28:40Louis Theroux:mixed reports on that I think it was uh it's hard to say I wouldn't say I completely there were several encounters um there was a couple I mean I dropped my kids off at flip out this is going somewhere and um in Brent Cross and one of the guys behind the desk says I saw you on HS's thing yet you got you got completely owned i said okay but don't worry you you learn from it and you'll fight again i'm like all right thank you that's about as bad that's feedback did that make you nervous at all um confused confused and and i thought well but then truthfully they've only seen the hs stream i don't even know if he's seen this whole hs stream but i went into the doing the film partly yeah what's the reason partly because the cultural relevance or the fact that there's so much of this content um and how influential it is but also i thought it'll be an opportunity to you know i specialize in getting out of my depth that i i sort of think that where i'm uncomfortable is probably where i need to be and sometimes that's some sense of physical danger like in a prison or in a high crime area with gangs but sometimes it's more of a the danger of being in some way exposed the danger of being tailed or harassed like I made a film about Scientology partly I did that because they specialize in coming after you and filming you you know they don't like journalists and so they'll come out and film you and I thought that'll create and interest because it's in the end like a good documentary for my tastes often hinges on moments of conflict and and moments of tension so how do you how do you make that how do you actually create tension short of running up and punching someone right which probably youtubers uh sometimes do uh and so for me this felt like oh well they'll document me and then we'll have this layer of the encounters themselves they'll be filming me that's kind of weird and interesting and then that will go viral maybe and so that was kind of baked into the concept uh i know that there's times when i didn't get it like i definitely think i could have improved uh it's hard like yeah i do rely on editing so if there's a complete stream you could choose bits where i look like a bit of a dick yeah you know what i mean and um and also it was an education in how moments taken out of context can go viral and you could be made to look a certain way but in the end like you know if i zoom out that's what's so weird and interesting about the whole media culture we inhabit now isn't it that it's no longer i don't need to tell you this like the top down sort of bbc and itv own the airwaves you know where you could go and basically what you said in your report whether or not it was truthful we'd go largely unchallenged because no one else had a platform we're now in a world where it's all been flattened and that's there's a part of that that's scary but there's a part of that that's kind of interesting it's quite exciting yeah so i was into that and i was into the idea that actually i don't mind having my workings exposed and whether or not how that goes down with people i i don't know i did it one other time which was i made a film called extreme and online that was about far right influences in america and they filmed as well uh there was some live streaming so i had a little forte yeah i had a foretaste of it in that one and i thought well that was all right i wouldn't want to be like that the whole time though do you know what i mean if everything you did like imagine if you were interviewing me romish love your stuff i mean just for my own protection i will be filming everything do you know what i mean yeah but i guess like yeah having said that we could have done this

32:30Romesh Ranganathan:as a content share we could have been so good i mean it would benefit me more than you but um what made you decide to go into that world in the first place because as a father of three boys yeah you know you talk about andrew tate to about hs tiki-tiki you know all of these people you know i i've not deep dived into the way that you have but my main concerns are one the way that women are spoken about uh and and the attitudes and what it means to be a male growing up i found it frightening that people that young had those attitudes that i found that upsetting actually and i sort of thought my kids are being exposed to that and then the other thing I find really tricky with all those guys is the idea that material wealth yeah is the be all and end all of of what you achieve in life and I don't want my kids to have that message and it's not just you know the I know you talk to a few people like that but this it seems to be just accepted by that generation that if you've got a nice car and if you've got a and you go your life can be like mine all of that I find quite frightening it was that were Are those the drivers behind you getting into it?

33:39Romesh Ranganathan:Very much so.

33:40Louis Theroux:Very much so. And I've joked that this subject is like the final boss of subjects for me because it combines so many things that I've seen in other worlds, in other films that I've done, whether it's homophobia, misogyny, racism, porn, because they're selling adult content, a lot of them. A lot of the guys are a gateway to OnlyFans subscriptions. so that was kind of the impulse and the idea of making a film that i thought would be interesting and revealing but i think i think in terms of what is troubling because there's two ways of slicing it's like what's troubling and then what parts of the culture is it actually does it seem to be speaking to like what part of it is resonating with people but in terms of the misogyny is obviously the front burner issue the one that is um most immediately concerning and there's yeah there's absolutely no excusing it it's horrific and and it's becoming more and more weird almost like in a one-upmanship you know i don't think women should drive i don't think they should vote well i think they should be you know that kind of um it's not it's almost too kind to say it's outdated like it sort of feels like it's uh it's become a sort of performative misogyny of creating outrage but the crazy thing is is that's almost the window dressing for a sales pitch and that they go viral exploiting algorithms online that thrive on divisive content yeah and then it becomes an upsell for a rubbish uh subscription to an online university or some crypto scam or an fx trading platform the other part though is if we could be really frank because the you mentioned materialism and i know you're a fan of hip-hop like i would sometimes get this dissonance of like there's aspects of hip-hop culture that it's clearly in certain respects reflecting um i've always been a fan of like the braggadociousness of hip-hop and the you know the displays of and part of that has been like look at my swag which i almost took as a commentary on um lack of wealth like the idea like we've come from you know difficult or deprived upbringings

35:52Romesh Ranganathan:I agree. I think that like, you know, when there's sort of a, you know, that sort of look, there's a sneery attitude to people showing off their wealth. And often the people that are doing that, what they're displaying actually is how they've overcome their initial conditions and, you know, it's social movement or whatever. Yeah. And so I do respect that. But I don't want my, you know, I don't want my...

36:21Louis Theroux:Well, when it becomes the overculture, when it becomes like part of this abiding concern that we're all supposed to aspire to, as opposed to a commentary on a certain part of life, then it is depressing. So that's why I've been modelling ostentatious beta behaviour with my... Do you rock an F91W watch? That's my Casio. I've got three of those. they're a good watch for stand-up actually I bet because you've got a timer on there? yeah you don't want to be on there any longer than you have to I don't no I personally don't it's difficult though isn't it when you've got kids and they're like why have you got such a crap car and you're like well the car does the job and like couldn't we have like a more swaggy car your kids say that to you?

37:11Louis Theroux:not on a regular basis but that comment has been made why is our car so shit yeah

37:16Romesh Ranganathan:and what's your response to that

37:19Louis Theroux:we're not those people we're not people who are like oh look at that car I mean I don't know that's the best I've got I forgot if there's a better answer then I'd be we're not those people we're not those people who've got big cars that are flash actually the car is quite big it's like a it's should I get specific yeah please it's a SEAT Alhambra that is a nice car it's basically like a minicab car it's a really nice car I like it I do I like it I like it yeah but no one whistles and goes no one wolf whistles and goes wow look at that but nobody does that to any car do they no one's going to say look at that whip I don't think anybody says look at that whip it was a German whip I think it was a Spanish whip which part of Europe does that whip come from yeah do people still say whip

38:08Romesh Ranganathan:yeah they do yeah but I don't think it takes a lot to make somebody comment like actually verbally comment on a whip Yeah, good.

38:16Louis Theroux:Right, two middle-aged men. Using three words of hip-hop slang.

38:24Romesh Ranganathan:But do you, with HS, I mean, let's start, you talk to HS first, right? Yeah. Actually, well, let's say yes. Who is it you talked to before that?

38:35Louis Theroux:Well, it's, we didn't film him first.

38:40Romesh Ranganathan:The first film we did was... But in the documentary, he is first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you go in and talk to him, and he's the one that was probably, him and Ed Matthews are the ones that I was most familiar with. Ed Matthews is his little buddy. Yeah, yeah.

38:54Louis Theroux:He's got a sort of jester clown energy. Yeah. Have you heard this term, jester maxing? No. Do you know that term, anyone? That's the new term. They say clavicular is jester maxing. But then they say, I'm jester maxing the manosphere, and I like that. You know maxing. Everything's being maxed now. Looks maxing. What are the other maxings? I don't know.

39:18Romesh Ranganathan:Guys, can we look up what the other maxings are?

39:20Louis Theroux:Looks maxing. Is anything you max, probably clothes maxing, maybe. But business maxing, I don't know. I'm making them up now. But just a maxing, I think, is when you're just making fun of something to the extreme. Yeah. And Ed Matthews does that. Yeah, I think he does. I don't know. Maybe he does. I think he has got that energy.

39:41Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, he inspired your initial use of jester maxing, but you're not sure.

39:44Louis Theroux:Yeah, I think I went down a rabbit hole there. I think someone said I was jester maxing. I think he has got jester energy. Right, okay. He's more of a sort of clown. Did you like HS Tiki Toki? I wouldn't say I disliked him. I know that sounds like, what are you trying to say, Louis? Like, I think a lot about these things, probably too much. I think actually I have my reactions in that journalistic sphere sphere are more complicated than uh oh i like him i didn't like him you know what i mean i i think sorry to be really cheese pairing but it's like yeah there's parts of my likes and

40:19Romesh Ranganathan:there's parts i didn't like if i'm honest yeah but but is there any part of it that because when he was talking to you about i think it's interesting a lot of people won't know how these guys make money and actually as you said it's sort of uh it's a fringe thing to get interest in you in order that you can sell this whatever whatever they go viral they get paid by platforms

40:38Louis Theroux:to stream. Sometimes they'll have deals with the platform. Sometimes they'll get advertising or promotional stuff. So they get money like that. The more people they have online at any one time live streaming, the more money they'll get. So there's this pressure on to keep the audience engaged at all times, leading them to sometimes do fairly horrific things. And then they also try to upsell their audience by getting them to subscribe to various products, fitness plans platforms for trading currency that kind of thing um and is there any part of you that

41:11Romesh Ranganathan:kind of when you there's a bit where you're talking to him and he talking he's talking about being a salesman and yeah he says it's all sales yeah it's all sales was there any part of you that i mean it's there is an argument that it's that he's sort of quite impressive that he's managed to find a way to make money right they're you know coming from quite humble beginnings i guess

41:30Louis Theroux:I'd buy that. Like, you know, from all the work I've done, like I've tried always to take an approach of resisting binary thinking on things like, oh, you know, that person's horrific. You know, sometimes it's irrelevant. Like Hitler was nice to his dog. Whatever. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it doesn't really mean much. but in other contexts where you think well there are pros and cons to people's life like truthfully in the manosphere um the fitness advice is usually well certainly the idea like get to the gym if you're feeling down don't feel sorry for yourself go and work out like i believe that yeah um that's why uh i do a joe wicks workout most days but joe wicks isn't saying uh women shouldn't be allowed to drive.

42:16Louis Theroux:He thinks it. He might think it. I don't know. You may know Joe better than me. He does the workouts with his wife, Rosie. Yeah, resentfully. She sometimes, she closes her eyes and you can say, help me, written on her eyelids. No. That's a joke. I think they've got a good relationship. Yeah, they're fine. They seem to be fine. But the point being, so there's a lot of good content, and no one's got a problem with the good content you know what I mean and actually yeah he's hard working that's valid he obviously he looks good he's got charisma he's a talented broadcaster I'm talking about HS now Joe Wicks is as well so it's like yeah I can acknowledge all of those things I don't have a problem with any of those things and yeah he has he's got his start in life is interesting like his dad is Rugby International, or was, of Nigerian heritage, but wasn't around, didn't come and see the family.

43:20Louis Theroux:His mum, hardworking, I think Irish heritage, single mum, raising the family. I think her parents were involved, but he was a single, you know, basically the two of them, largely, in the nuclear family. But he went to a private school. His mum earned enough money, or they got money, and a scholarship. So he had a good education. So it's complicated. and yeah he there's a real work ethic there but then how meaningful is it to have a good work ethic if you're just spending hours and hours spewing like uh offensive pickup lines to girls on the beachfront in marbella yeah like well you work really hard spouting that abuse so i give you

43:59Romesh Ranganathan:credit for that do you know what i mean that's a fair point um did you do you um did you come away for that feeling less or more worried about that whole manosphere kind of phenomenon

44:13Louis Theroux:uh because my kids because i'd sort of come to it via my kids somewhat it wasn't massively the case that i thought oh my god this is far worse than i imagined uh it's definitely i think i just wanted to bring the news to the wider world in fact the people who've seen the film uh a few of them have been like wow that was horrific that was really upsetting and i was a bit surprised by the reaction i thought like well it is shocking and troubling and also entertaining and at times quite funny uh so it wasn't as though the experience of making it i think the main yeah i i guess i'm gonna say add one thing which is to see how to see how my narrative and my presentation the way in which I went viral in ways that were out of control and kind of I mean to your point that you made earlier like it Louis looked like he was genuinely whatever it was you said like taken out of his comfort zone or being exposed in some way it could be troubling or date or not

45:16Romesh Ranganathan:dangerous obviously some people caught that some people some people saying you've ended Louis Theroux you know that that comment was being made because it's like this guy's been relying on the other side not being

45:30Romesh Ranganathan:But they were saying, you know, this guy's always been, you know, he's always had the benefit of an edit. And now finally you found a way to unmask this guy. This is it. Yeah.

45:38Louis Theroux:I think that part of it maybe was salutary and, you know, and helpful. And I think actually that was the education for me was to see how how much the narrative is up for grabs now. Yeah. But it's yeah. So that I don't I don't know. Yeah. For me, that was personally uncomfortable, but also sort of revelatory to experience. But you found it worrying. Yeah, of course.

46:07Romesh Ranganathan:I've got kids, yeah. It's very worrying. Yeah, well done for doing it. We've got a question from my mother now. Okay. How do you feel about that as an item? Good, yeah. We'll talk about your podcast in a minute, but you actually rely on your ability to interview, don't you? I do my best. yeah yeah whereas we have to have sort of bells and whistles why not we give a gift there's stuff

46:29Louis Theroux:coming up as well there is a game

46:34Romesh Ranganathan:okay i don't know what this question is going to be

46:38Louis Theroux:hi this is shanti is romesh's mom how are you i'm good thank you how are you um i don't think romesh will be able to do the documentaries you do how does your family feel about you filming with extreme and sometimes dangerous people. I just wonder when were you so scared during filming? Love to know that. And have a wonderful day. Lots of love. Shanti.

47:14Romesh Ranganathan:That's not the end of Lord of the Rings. When is it going to finish? There's actually 30 seconds left on this clip.

47:19Louis Theroux:No, there isn't. Yeah, there is. Do you want to say something else? No, I think she just didn't hang up.

47:24Romesh Ranganathan:Okay, great.

47:26Louis Theroux:So, Louis. She always gets a dig in, doesn't she? Yeah. Yeah. Do you ask her to say something? No. Because she gets that's part of the brand.

47:35Romesh Ranganathan:That's good branding. Yeah, it is. It's a lot like your persona. Very much so. No, she does. I do think she... Well, everything she does is kind of... It comes from truth. So she's embellishing... What did she say? She said, I don't think Romesh... Romesh could do the documentaries like you do. That's true. She does think that. You know, that's not made up. She doesn't think I could do the documentaries like you do.

48:03Louis Theroux:You might have to now that I've been ended.

48:09Romesh Ranganathan:But how nervous do you get about being around scary people? And how do your family feel about it?

48:13Louis Theroux:My family is alarmingly relaxed. It was one of the things I noticed early on, when I was in a relationship with my wife going back next. We've been together 20 years, but 23. And I remember I was going to a skinhead for work, skinhead music festival. And I was quite... When work meets hobby. Big time. It was perfect alignment. I was like, I'm going anyway. Our extreme hate playing. Oh, never mind. They do have names like that. They call it hatecore music.

48:47Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah.

48:48Louis Theroux:And I remember thinking, it's one of those things where it's on the calendar, you know, like a flu jab. You're like, oh, God, do that on Wednesday. Oh, and then I've got the skinhead hatecore music festival. You know, it's like it just preys on your mind a bit. And I remember telling my then girlfriend, now wife, and she was just completely relaxed about it. Right. She doesn't worry about it. I mean, or she does a good job of hiding it, which in a way, maybe I appreciate that. Maybe I don't. I haven't figured out how I feel about them. But I think they sort of switch off work, Louis, and home, Louis, dad, husband.

49:27Louis Theroux:They're not over-interested. I don't mean that as a group. They are not especially invested in any particular way, as far as I can tell, in my work and how it's going. No, mine either. That's probably quite healthy and normal. I think that's sensible.

49:42Romesh Ranganathan:And I think if they were, I think that's a problem.

49:45Louis Theroux:How did it go with HS, dad? did you get what you needed you know what i mean yeah it's not that doesn't happen unless it's in their feed and they're like oh you got cooked yeah were they upset about you getting cooked um they were actually pleasingly understanding about me being lightly flambéed i don't endorse cooked it was a kind of it was a cook-off wasn't it really it was a great internet bake-off. Yeah. I think they feel... I think they'd worry if I was completely cooked. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. If I'd been on stream with my trousers metaphorically down, which I contend I wasn't. No.

50:28Louis Theroux:But there's a cost to them, isn't there? Of course. Like socially, I mean. The biggest thing, I imagine for them socially, was when Jiggle Jiggle went viral.

50:38Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah.

50:38Louis Theroux:And then they're on TikTok. This is like five years ago. My rap track is all over their favorite platform. And it's not got, from so far as they can see, any musical value. Sure. They're confused. No, I understand. By whatever irony. And I think it wasn't so much. There's no reason they should be. It wasn't like it was horrific. But I think it was, for the youngest one, who was then probably six or seven, And it was, I suspect, one of the best things that's ever happened. Like his dad is doing this track that all his kids are grooving and dancing to. And then for the middle one, I think it was a bit like, what the hell is this?

51:20Louis Theroux:Well, I don't get it. My dad's a writer, right? And when I grew up, he had a profile. It was more of a literary profile because he's, you know, writing travel books, novels. And I remember reading his books or hearing about him or seeing him through the lens of what other people thought of him and feeling like, I don't know who that guy is. Like, he looks a bit like my dad, sounds a bit like, but that's not the person I know as my dad. So I imagine with them it's a little bit like that, maybe even more so. How did you feel about Jiggle Jiggle? I felt good about it. Did you not?

51:53Romesh Ranganathan:Did I not feel good about it? Yeah. About you? Yeah, did you feel okay with it? I felt great, yeah. It's happy for you. I mean, you're a genuine bona fide hip-hop fan, aren't you? Yes. you know if that was if that was somebody that didn't have a Michael Ball I would be less comfortable with that

52:13Louis Theroux:I have to give I'd always give props to Reese and Bigelow my co-writers from Jackson Mississippi and they get royalties from it as well it was strange obviously no one thought that was like a credible hip hop track it wasn't that it was many things but I don't think it was a bid to pass myself off as a rap figure of any importance.

52:39Romesh Ranganathan:Did you consider, have you considered an album?

52:46No.

52:47Louis Theroux:And I only paused because. Because you are. Because I have. Yeah.

52:56Romesh Ranganathan:You saw through me. It wasn't tricky. what's the deal?

53:02Louis Theroux:you've got an album it's at an early stage and I don't like to talk too much about it but no I haven't but I did get approached, my label sent me I like saying that you know it's a gold record I've got a gold record it's amazing I know does it feel wrong? no, it feels right to me it's amazing how quickly you get used to you know what I mean? Like, I deserve this. Do you know what I mean? It's a extraordinary illustration of the corruption of power. Oh, it's horrible. When it starts to affect you. How could Saddam Hussein feed those people to lions and rejoice and hear their blood curdling? I don't understand.

53:48Louis Theroux:Like, I understand. You're thinking, what's the connection? It's a thin end of the wedge. You get something, you're like, I deserve this. I deserve a gold record. I deserve to see i know you don't you deserve sadism maybe it's not the best metaphor but the point is is that you get used to you get something wonderful and for a while that was incredible and then after a while and someone goes like you've got that and you go how dare you why are you surprised uh my label said to me uh because they'd heard i interviewed ed sheeran on my award-winning actually i don't think we've got any awards but on my award-nominated podcast ed sheeran he'd be a good guest for you.

54:28Louis Theroux:Have you had him on? No, he wouldn't come on this. Oh.

54:33Romesh Ranganathan:That was horrible. That was the most front-footedly horrible I think I've seen you be. That was my tester. So now I'll pull back a bit.

54:45Louis Theroux:There you go.

54:46Romesh Ranganathan:So you had Ed Sheeran on.

54:47Louis Theroux:I think I was singing one of his songs and then in the intro and I made a joke and I mangled it so badly and I said and that'll be on my soon to forthcoming album covers. And then my label got in touch and said, are you serious about the covers album? Because we're here, you know, we're ready to do it. We'd love to keep going, get another project. And I was like, no, that was a joke.

55:12Romesh Ranganathan:Now let's talk about your podcast, the Louis Theroux podcast, Series 7 out now.

55:19Louis Theroux:Yes. Did you think a long time before you went with the Romesh Ranganathan show? Because obviously people joke about how long did that take to think of, you know.

55:30Romesh Ranganathan:The honest truth of it is, is that we don't know that it's always going to be this. That's a placeholder. You know, we wanted it to be loose enough to, in the same way that you name a stand-up show before you've written it, you know. Why don't we just call it this? Do you not name a stand-up show before you've written it? You do name it before you've written it. So the point is, is like, let's make it vague enough. Yeah. If we called it the Romesh Ranganathan podcast it would still be a podcast but if we started going and doing like random mad shit this is like a catch-all It works The Louis Thru podcast works

56:09Louis Theroux:I think that's the name I think we're going to stick with it Season 7's out Good guests

56:17Romesh Ranganathan:What made you decide to start a podcast?

56:22Louis Theroux:Lockdown is the actual real answer. Thank you for being honest. Yeah. I was about to do filming. It was March five, six years ago and all the flights were cancelled. I just started a production company. We had no business. There was no work because no one could go anywhere. And so I think, I don't know if we got in touch with the BBC or the other way around, but a podcast was really the only thing available to make at that point. Literally in the first couple of weeks of the pandemic. And I think it had been suggested once or twice before that. And I thought, well, there's so many podcasts. And that was then.

57:02Louis Theroux:Now it's a shit show.

57:04Romesh Ranganathan:Now it's an absolute shit blizzard. Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them. Plus, time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built-in safety features to help create age-appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at Instagram.com slash teen accounts.

57:37Romesh Ranganathan:Reese's peanut butter cups. They go perfectly with music, podcasts, and welcome back to the show. Even nature sounds. Oh, and the thing where someone crinkles tissue and whispers at you. Hello. Look, I'm not here to judge what you listen to. I'm here to judge you for not eating Reese's while you listen to it. Reese's. Ashley, go back to the nature sounds.

58:05Romesh Ranganathan:Nice. Yeah, it's really nice. Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also, expensive. Sell their pint-sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees. Because somewhere, a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow. And he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider your future growth bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.

58:38Louis Theroux:Why did you start one? There's something to do, isn't it?

58:43Romesh Ranganathan:Everyone's doing it. You must be so busy.

58:45Louis Theroux:you like got so much work i'm not saying i'm always i'm amazed by how productive you are right do you see your family i'm like he can't see much of his family well at the moment i don't see

58:58Romesh Ranganathan:loads of them because because i'm doing this play but normally i do what's the play you're doing woman in mind with sheridan smith but but normally i do i do see a fair bit i don't i don't feel as busy as i look does that make sense yeah because of some of its controllable tapings yeah it's But if you do a travel show or a documentary,

59:18Louis Theroux:that might be three trips of like a week or so each. Yeah. Whereas if you're, I'm imagining some of your tapings aren't.

59:25Romesh Ranganathan:Well, like Weekest Link, for example, that's three months of telly. I record that in eight days. Wow. So. Good ching. Well, that's not what I mean. That was very HS Tiki Taki of you.

59:45Louis Theroux:We were all thinking it. We were more HSTKTK of you, wasn't it? Was it? What was? Well, look how much... I recall that in eight days. Hold on.

59:58Romesh Ranganathan:Wasn't it?

59:58Louis Theroux:Three months of telly, eight days. I could teach you how to do the same.

1:00:04Romesh Ranganathan:No, no, no, no. Come on. It was. That was like an infomercial. That's the conversation naturally moved, though.

1:00:07Louis Theroux:I didn't say it apropos of nothing. Yeah, but you tried to put it on me, and I just gave it back. now the first

1:00:14Romesh Ranganathan:how do you how do you I mean like Adam Buxton's quite pissed off with you isn't he I don't think so yeah he is he was

1:00:23Louis Theroux:there was a time when he was

1:00:25Romesh Ranganathan:he's pissed off because he's not you've got enough shit going on he's not he pretends that's a persona that's a persona well he's fucking nailing it

1:00:38Louis Theroux:well and that's fine by the way yeah I don't want him to be pissed off. So it's not fine. Not fine. What am I trying to say? I know early on it was confusing and I get it. Probably I'd be pissed off. I'm pissed off for him. How dare I? What can we do? He's my inspiration in a way. Not in a way, he was my inspiration. And in fact, it was by going on his podcast that's nice is it? by going on his podcast it felt like it kind of, doesn't sound like no, it sounds horrible does it? I can't tell, I'm road testing a few different responses to that question, you can choose the one that makes me sound best I'm still worrying about the remark after the Ed Sheeran comment why where i went oh i loved it it's great yeah it's one of my favorite things you've ever done uh with adam when i went on his podcast it was like i opened the door to me thinking like oh truthfully i'd be out and about having just completed a documentary that i'd be very proud of about brain injury clinics in liverpool or uh i don't know heroin use in appalachia and and i'd go out and people go like oh louis i love that thing you did with adam where you talked about what it was like at school like i was getting more feedback right right right the people we call

1:02:11Romesh Ranganathan:my agent i call this the people in the street test yeah which is very brute one name but the point is is that you know you think something's going big or whatever and then it's often what do the most people can't just talk to you about and they seem to connect with the fact all the

1:02:25Louis Theroux:things i've been i grew up uh well not certainly in my early 20s the big things were uh shows like the the for the comedy snob such as myself at the time things like brass eye and then later on um ali g and that feeling of like oh you gotta hold your real self back you can't play the game preserve a mystery around who you really are don't turn up for any show business events because that's death, that's corrupt. And I think I, as a result, turned lots of things down. Probably that was good in a way, but I would have resisted lifting the lid on my life. And then I'm on Adam's show, and because it's Adam and we were at school together, we go way back, he'd say, oh, do you remember that thing when we were 15?

1:03:11Louis Theroux:Or what was it like? Or what was your first snuggle? Talk about family life. Or what's the worst holiday you've ever had with the kids? And I think it was bad manners to not answer. and then people seemed to like it and so I was like, oh, I actually can just talk about whatever and no one really,

1:03:27Romesh Ranganathan:it's quite nice. So rather than just sort of enjoying it on Adams, you decided to set up your own? Basically. Yeah. I took it somewhere else. That makes sense. Good for you.

1:03:38Louis Theroux:Now, the first... I mean, I'm trying to figure out whether I feel judged. I'm really wanting you off on it. No, no, I like it. I like it. that is basically what happened yeah but you know i've and um yeah that is what happened yeah okay

1:03:56Romesh Ranganathan:good i'm sitting with that yeah we can both sit with it for a moment if you like

1:04:07Romesh Ranganathan:Should we talk about hip hop? We can do. The first guest of the run, Boris Becker. How was he? Really good. Yeah.

1:04:17Louis Theroux:I love it when you talk to people who you remember as a civilian early in life, just looking at them and thinking like, you know, when he, when Becker won Wimbledon, it was 1985. I was 15 years old. and it was a huge moment in the culture like this 17 year old boy who'd won Wimbledon anyway fast forward whatever it is 30 or 40 years and there I am in Milan where he lives having come out of prison he was in Wandsworth and then another prison kind of his reputation in shreds uh piecing himself back together sits down and out it comes all of it all of it yeah and um I don't know all of it a lot of it uh it was a great chat he did me the honor of speaking to me he said he afterwards we went out for a drink he said I didn't want to do Pierce Morgan I'm not quite nailing the accent I can't remember why but it's just that thing of mixing it up talking to people from different walks of life each time it's someone who's like comedians are fun because you know you're going to get a great chat in a way the challenge is getting really strong conversations from non-comedians.

1:05:26Louis Theroux:Yeah. Have you noticed that? I've noticed that... They always do well as well. What? The numbers. If you look at the numbers. Yeah, what for comedians? On Spotify, yeah. James Acaster got 500 ,000 for you. Yes, yeah. Did you notice that?

1:05:43Romesh Ranganathan:No. But these guys tell me the stuff.

1:05:45Louis Theroux:Do you not worry about the numbers? No. I probably shouldn't. How much do you worry about it? I mean, when they tell me good things... More than I should. I don't worry about it, but I think about it. And it's like, why even think about it? Because actually, it's either good or it's not. Yeah. It's like they say, if you can reach one person.

1:06:07Romesh Ranganathan:What a waste of time.

1:06:11Louis Theroux:That's the most dishonest brag ever, isn't it?

1:06:13Romesh Ranganathan:If I could just reach one person. If I could just open this up for one person. Job's done. No, if the guys tell me good news about numbers, then I'm happy. Yeah. But I would never, ever look for the numbers. No. Ever. Ever. Do you ever open... But if you open Spotify, the numbers are there.

1:06:33Louis Theroux:I know, yeah. They're right there staring you in the face.

1:06:38Romesh Ranganathan:But comedians are... Not about the numbers. Less interesting for you to interview, are they? No, that wasn't the point. No, but I'm asking as a sidebar. In a way, they're easier. Yeah, but that might not be good, right? You want to work for your meal?

1:06:53Louis Theroux:Yeah, well, kind of. In a weird way, if someone's a little bit less forthcoming, then you think, okay, now it's me trying to be a professional. And can I do this? And if you do, then you're like, oh, yeah. Have you encountered impossible nuts to crack? No, but people in different... Definitely not. And I don't want to segue from that into anyone. But... no athletes aren't entertainers right so in general an athlete is likely to be um but there again athletes do have amazing life stories and they are who they are there's no they sort of in a sense have a persona that's real sometimes actors because they're famous for speaking other people's words i find more of a challenge yeah one observation i'd make is it's amazing how how many people you speak to who've got books out or memoirs it turns out not only did they not write them that's to be expected but they didn't read them yeah that's surprising right yeah or maybe can't remember them but you say like you say in your book and you say i never said that so you literally wrote that how you know how dare you uh remind me of this thing like but you wrote a book and that's in it oh i didn't no i didn't write that part when i interviewed pete doherty yeah uh i mean i love talking to him but i kept mentioning things that were in his book and he goes oh no they got that

1:08:25Romesh Ranganathan:wrong the army hammer when he sort of uh that clip i think that clip went massive of him sort of you ask him how it went and then he was sort of pissed off he seemed a little bit what's the word yeah i think you've got i mean i do think you are pretty you're very you're really courageous man I don't think so I wish I were I do think you are I think you don't I'm not at all You might not feel like it but as somebody watching and listening you don't shy away from it and you're apologetic and you're really charming about it but you still did it

1:09:14Louis Theroux:I'll never do anything I don't think where I didn't feel some degree of discomfort I think that's maybe what it is because I got into TV a little bit sideways having thought I'd be writing for television my dream was to be a sitcom writer right this was the golden age of TV sitcoms in the early 90s I was living in New York Seinfeld was big Frasier the Simpsons Larry Sanders and I thought that's where it's at like these this is like brilliant writing that's being consumed by millions of people in their front room There's nothing pretentious about it. It's really smart. I want to be part of that.

1:09:52Louis Theroux:And then, long story short, didn't get hired on a sitcom and got offered off the back of the TV Nation segments I was doing my own show and felt, oh, I know it sounds weird, but I really don't want to do my own show. like jumping around like being a goofball on tv and the only thing that made me i suppose not confident because i wasn't that but able to do it was the idea that i'd be immersed in situations not it's not purely discomfort but immersed in situations that i had a real interest in exploring that involved me getting into scrapes and even now i mean the only things that make sense for me uh or when you know to your point is it correct it doesn't feel like i'm you know i'm definitely obviously not in a war zone or doing anything like this there's amazing courageous journalists who do that but i do like like or i do feel that my job is to um find it a bit difficult yeah and do you ever feel when you've had an experience like that do you ever think i could have nudged it more or of course i sometimes nudge it too far maybe the ed sheeran joke i liked it

1:11:09Romesh Ranganathan:oh yeah it was good was it it got a big reaction it felt like it was you were slightly reaching outside of off stump with that but it works you got it away to for a boundary now you're feeling guilty about it did i yeah uh i think um sometimes i i i regret things i feel like i look at old episodes of weird weekends and i'm like that's unkind um or more maybe more often i look at

1:11:39Louis Theroux:things and think i could have turned it up a notch or two right and when i look at uh you know we grew up with people like Jeremy Paxman on TV or the other end of the spectrum, Jeremy Kyle. The two Jeremys. Where it's this sort of like how dare you and you come on here. Do you know what I mean? And that's always felt to me anathema. Like absolute, the opposite of what I'd be comfortable doing. I don't quite know how people do that.

1:12:10Romesh Ranganathan:But also it's not conducive to getting something great out of the other person, is it?

1:12:13Louis Theroux:It's conducive to something Piers Morgan's got a bit of it as well the ability to because especially if it starts friendly and then you know you're going to make it really awkward it creates a sense of drama and theatre it doesn't always reveal very much but it can do and in the Manosphere film there's moments, the most revealing interview is probably halfway through where I sit down with H.S. Tiki-Tiki and go like why not just do things that are actually positive and it sounds like the most basic inane question imaginable like why not he says like i just want to make money and i don't really care how i do it is his line and you know he'll rip people off if people are simps and they want to you know that's their term and they want to sign up to only fans he says then i'm going to promote it and that's on them and i'm like but you're literally pushing them into it and so it's a very softball interview but it kind of reveals um how he thinks because he's not under pressure but then later on um there's the more fiery encounter at the very end and there's times there where i think like should i have turned it up further it's not a science obviously and in general i think i i worry sometimes that i suffer from being overly agreeable that i i could i could cultivate a little bit more um what is it sort of just sense of being comfortable with hostility

1:13:46Romesh Ranganathan:yeah i mean that that'll be your perception of it but i frequently i think you've sort of got it note perfect really i appreciate it you don't get a stick you can't do of course no way there's not reviewers that don't like that no there aren't i've had one stars many a time not not recently

1:14:03Louis Theroux:you haven't. I had one, I can't remember the last one. There you go. Definitely had one two years ago. Two years ago? You had a one star? Two or three years, yeah, one star. I'm not going to say it. I don't even care, by the way. It's madness to think that you'll be loved by everyone. That's narcissism. How dare you not like me?

1:14:19Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, it's a terrible target as well.

1:14:21Louis Theroux:But anyway, we're now going to play a little game. Also, aren't one stars just for clicks anyway? Like, if someone gives you a one star, not really reviewing it, they're just going...

1:14:28Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, but they don't like it. If you see them watching something, you don't, you know, No, I'm not trying to. Go on. You don't go, this is really brilliant. I'm going to give it a one star for clicks.

1:14:38Louis Theroux:No, but he's right, though.

1:14:40Romesh Ranganathan:The one star feels a bit like, really?

1:14:42Louis Theroux:Yeah.

1:14:43Romesh Ranganathan:Two star, that's the shittest one, isn't it?

1:14:45Louis Theroux:Do you think so? Yeah, maybe.

1:14:46Romesh Ranganathan:Two stars worse than one star.

1:14:47Louis Theroux:Yeah, because one star says more about them.

1:14:49Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. Like, I was offended. Yeah. Once again, I dragged myself in front of the screen to watch another hour of this man's bilge. Something like that. Wasn't that bad? I imagine, I don't know.

1:14:59Louis Theroux:Wasn't that bad?

1:15:01Romesh Ranganathan:Right, we're going to play a game called Misquoted, Louis. Something you don't have to rely on because you actually have intellectual and journalistic nous on your podcast.

1:15:13Romesh Ranganathan:It's Misquoted. So we've got some quotes for you. You just have to tell me whether you... Whether I said them. ...say this or not. And then it leads to some light chat. Here's your first one. Good luck to you. You listen to people on the radio and talk shows and they specialise in certainty and outrage. And those are the parts of my personality I've attempted to weed out.

1:15:38Louis Theroux:Oh, jeez. I could have said that. I'll say yes. I don't remember saying it,

1:15:42Romesh Ranganathan:but I think that's probably... You did say that. Gentleman's Journal. Year unknown, it says here for some reason. Gentleman's Journal.

1:15:48Louis Theroux:Gentleman's Journal, GJ. I've given. Not quarterly, like GJ. I was GJ man of the year. No, I wasn't. that sounds about right a weed out I love that it's a gardening metaphor cultivate your garden I like to approach my personality like a well tended herbaceous border yeah I don't

1:16:11Romesh Ranganathan:I'm just trying to roll with it yeah no it's good I do agree with you about the certainty thing what was the quote again

1:16:16Louis Theroux:at the end

1:16:16Romesh Ranganathan:you listen to people on the radio and talk shows and they specialise I'm going to sort of say it with a bit of venom now you listen to people on the radio and talk shows and they specialise in certainty and outrage And those are the parts of my personality I've attempted to weed out.

1:16:29Louis Theroux:Well, I haven't really tried to weed them out, truthfully. They're never especially there. But then sometimes you think, oh, I should be certain. And you have to remind yourself, no, you don't actually need to be. I mean, I think. And then in terms of outrage, if you're outraged by something, it's worth checking in with yourself. What part of you is offended and is it the best part?

1:16:54Romesh Ranganathan:Are you ever outraged by anything?

1:16:57Louis Theroux:yes i would think so yeah i am yeah yeah you can't not be outraged by anything but that's

1:17:02Romesh Ranganathan:going to kill the vibe if we talk about it next one well done you won for one okay or are you did you say did you get that right i did yeah all right um you feel like they're almost role-playing as alphas unlike me a legit high-value male i think um i like to think i would have said that ironically uh you actually said it's it's sort of partly true you said it now i'm outraged you said everything apart from a legit high value male did i not but that's what makes it funny i wish i'd said that i'll say that in my next interview you feel like they're almost role playing as alphas when you're talking about myron gains yeah who you talked on on unlike me a legit

1:17:44Louis Theroux:high value male that we've added that uh i like that you've added it i'd like to say that irony is important and playfulness okay but do you do you think so myron gains to me they didn't seem

1:18:01Romesh Ranganathan:somewhere and i don't want to give away everything from the show before people watch it but myron gains to me more so than maybe ed matthews or hs myron gains an american masculinist influence

1:18:13Louis Theroux:it's probably the most extreme and troubling individual in the program. But he's playing a part, right? Isn't he? Yes. But he also believes most of the things that he's saying, I think.

1:18:25Romesh Ranganathan:That's slightly more depressing then.

1:18:27Louis Theroux:Yeah.

1:18:27Romesh Ranganathan:Okay. Here's your next one. Really good work so far, by the way.

1:18:30Louis Theroux:Thank you. But I've only got, I mean, I'm 50-50. Yeah.

1:18:33Romesh Ranganathan:So I'm not really good at sort of, all right. I got the nickname Posh Claude because I was trying so hard to be posh.

1:18:41Louis Theroux:Yeah, that's true. Now you're bringing back real memories. That was when I started at a prep school in southwest London, having been to a state primary. And it was the first time I'd worn a school uniform, and I was very anxious about fitting in. So I found myself, without really realizing it, enunciating more. And then the other kids at the primary, at the prep school, started calling me Posh Claude. And that was odd. I was the least posh one there at that point. I would have thought trying to fit in yeah that's the agreeableness but you went I was going deep cover how posh do you feel now I don't I feel quite normal I think how what does it even mean I think I feel I think I feel like a normal person but then sometimes I see myself or I hear impressions and I'm like oh yeah look at that posh git kind of like yeah I mean but I try not to beat myself up I am who I am my wife pulls me up about it sometimes she's more posh than I am right by the way pulls you up about your well sure sometimes impersonate me like I'm sort of this Prince Charles figure stumbling through yes what do they call this fish chips oh and this lovely mushy peas over here you know what I mean I don't know where that came from but you know what I mean like a bit like yeah yeah oh but those houses are so small how could one live too much I mean that's the thing she was like that's not funny because she'd probably I think I think to be I think yeah but I just I'm just in my head I feel quite normal on the inside.

1:20:37Louis Theroux:Anytime someone says you don't seem normal or oh, he's quirky. I remember when I first had my show on the TV and I go out and about and I was travelling with like a PR person and they go, yeah, Louis is in the back, yeah everything's fine and they'd not met me before and they'd be like, yeah, do you know what? He's just like, he's on the show, it's very funny, yeah, he really is like that. And I'm like, like that? Like what? Do you know what I mean? Well, I'm a normal person. It's odd though, isn't it? I feel very normal so I don't feel posh or non-posh or when I go up north I feel quite southern

1:21:12Romesh Ranganathan:I'll allow that No, you are southern But you're just a normal guy When I go to Scotland I feel a bit English It's all about context Absolutely, you're so right But you seem like such a normal Don Okay, here's your next one It's a bit like warfare at times The feelings of deprivation and confusion um

1:21:37Louis Theroux:I've got nothing on that no I'm going to say that I don't think that was me uh it was you what was I talking about fatherhood yeah deprivation well sleep deprivation yes depriving I wasn't talking about the kids no you're talking about yourself dad why are we outside

1:22:00Romesh Ranganathan:where are you I think I was talking about myself yeah and you feel like you then go and say you

1:22:06Louis Theroux:feel like a failure a lot of the time yeah that's definitely the case yeah it's a controlled but it's a in in that way it's a helpful exercise in um acclimatizing yourself with failure becoming comfortable with fail to quote Beckett fail again fail better right to quote Samuel Beckett and it's that feeling like oh I'm never gonna because you start out thinking I'm gonna be the best dad in the world there'll never have been a dad who's as fun as me i'm going to be the ultimate parent and disrupt all those hierarchies of parenting we can do whatever and then uh and you feel like you're faking it for a long time do you not find like in the early days you're like i'm just i i

1:22:47Romesh Ranganathan:remember i have a really clear memory of walking around a farm park with lisa and the kids and looking at other parents and thinking i wonder if they feel like they're frauds as well because everybody else sort of looks so comfortable in their roles. And I just thought, I'm just playing it. I don't know what the hell I'm doing. It turns out everybody feels like that.

1:23:05Louis Theroux:And then after a while, you're just so tired or so used to it, inured that you forget about that and you're just getting on with it.

1:23:18Louis Theroux:The crazy thing is how quickly things pass as well. As I said, the youngest is 11 now, but you forget being in the war zone. when it's happening you're like oh my god no one's, everyone all you look around at people like if everyone was a baby and their parents went through this this extraordinary period, intense period of emotional ups and downs sleep deprivation, how is everyone alive?

1:23:44Romesh Ranganathan:That's what exactly, it's so weird you said that, I remember like being up with our eldest in the middle of the night and I remember saying to Lisa, why why don't people talk more about how hard this everybody that's had a kid can't have gone through this this is horrific you sort of can't believe how difficult and traumatic it is right and also the other thing that i found was i it opens up this kind of uh worry that you have about your children and you know worrying about their health how they're going to get on socially you know all of these things there's a time when you know i've sort of come to it now but there was a time when the worry about my kids i felt was so extreme that almost outweigh the positives of having children do you know what i mean so i can't deal with how many things i feel anxious about with regards to the children but you get over it yeah i never had that

1:24:37Louis Theroux:no i did worry i didn't i didn't find it wasn't parent like wasn't one of those people like they're gonna get kidnapped or a man's gonna snatch them from outside the shop it's like i wish

1:24:49Romesh Ranganathan:no too dark no not too dark uh here's your last quote the best part of the interview is afterwards when they want to swap numbers did you say i definitely didn't say that no i wouldn't say that who but i'm curious who actually said that nobody said that we made it up in fact you did you said the best part of the interview is often when people end the interview anyone when anytime time anyone rips off their mic or puts their hand over the lens you're thinking this is going in definitely not true for podcasts no right right that's different vibe you've not had a dramatic

1:25:25Louis Theroux:ending to a podcast have you no no that would be so awkward but that's one of the strengths and limitations of the of the form right is that you're not likely to say something so challenging that you think they're going to be like what the fuck are you talking about that is an offensive question in fact this is bullshit man i'm out of here you can't but you can't prod too much on a podcast you just can't can you unless it's a remote podcast part of the reason the army hammer one possibly was a sailed a tiny bit closer to the wind was it was remote so if it got awkward or if it got so awkward that it was it was would end the interview there wouldn't be that okay well you know here's the way out of the building and here's your coach do you know i mean it would I'm like, are you sure you don't want to continue?

1:26:14Louis Theroux:Look, why don't we just give it another go? Yeah. And I'll tell you what, why don't we try again? You know what I mean? All those sort of saving the interview stylings. It was just, by the way, the interview didn't end prematurely, but it's a different energy when it's remote. Do you do any remote recording? We haven't done so far for this. Trying to avoid it properly.

1:26:33Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, but when we do, I'm going to go and fucking two-foot it.

1:26:36Louis Theroux:You go in there big time.

1:26:38Romesh Ranganathan:Absolutely smashed up.

1:26:39Louis Theroux:Windmilling in. yeah I think but on location like a big life lesson is this like this could be like one of those podcasts where we give people lessons for life and one of them is if you are ever chased down by a camera crew and they stick a camera in your face don't put your hand over the lens and push it away because that's definitely going in whatever they're doing yeah yeah it looks aggressive and shady just smile it's good it's good advice yeah really good if it happens to you yeah jerry seinfeld used to say if you're chased by paparazzi always wear the same clothes oh so they can't date the thing yeah they're like we've got this no it isn't this one's from

1:27:25Romesh Ranganathan:yesterday like he's wearing the same i mean that feels like quite extreme doesn't it um we're almost at the end of the interview and you've been you've been wonderful best guess we've ever had wow yeah amazing definitely yeah now thank you thank you for having me thank you for coming on can we just briefly before we do our final final question what hip are you listening to hip hop any hip hop at the moment

1:27:47Louis Theroux:I am I am but I'm doing it very haphazardly okay so it's more a case of whatever comes on SD kid yeah I don't know if you'd call it hip hop but fake mink I mean it's sort of in that yeah new sounds this is very

1:28:05Romesh Ranganathan:this is very very young people music

1:28:08Louis Theroux:well that's where my my my recommendations come from my kids right so it skews young

1:28:17and then just

1:28:18Romesh Ranganathan:whatever comes on I'd be very interested to know what you thought of the I don't know if you listened to have you listened to the new J. Cole album no recommendo that is a Rommie recommend right there is it yeah I mean it's two hours long so it's a big meal but it's

1:28:34Louis Theroux:it's amazing I think it's amazing it's amazing that you I mean it's been so long since I listened to a hip-hop album or any album yeah let's put on an album I just tend to play whatever spits out of the algorithm yeah and then slap it on a playlist yeah do you actually like I'm gonna sit

1:28:51Romesh Ranganathan:down and it depends on what it is I think some I feel like some artists are singles artists and some artists are album artists I think jay cole you know this album is he's he's saying it's his last thing he ever does he's been working up to making a record of this uh you know this kind of statement album and now he's done so i feel like you kind of have to listen to the whole thing musicians often get very depressed don't they about when a new album comes out have you seen that that meme of like somebody just going through an album that somebody spent months in the studio working on and then they start the first track skip it to the middle and they go yeah that's right then they do the second one like you know to sort of to listen to art or to experience art like that is but the but the jay color album is worth it's a headphones album i would sit down

1:29:40Louis Theroux:if you've got a bit of time and just take it yeah i uh when i'm cycling around you're not supposed to and i don't recommend it no and in fact he condemns it and don't do it listen to an album

1:29:51Romesh Ranganathan:on your bike is what you shouldn't do um okay louis last thing you've been wonderful genuinely really wonderful.

1:29:57Louis Theroux:I appreciate that. It's a real honour to talk to you. There's so much in my head. I loved it. You're a good interviewer. Keep auditioning.

1:30:11Louis Theroux:You will get there.

1:30:12Romesh Ranganathan:This is your year. I can feel it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Have you got anything that you've never said before or exclusive, you know, something that we could kind of throw in the mix?

1:30:20Louis Theroux:I did bring the letter that I wrote to Hip Hop Connection when I was 20 years old. Yeah. Have you got it with you? Yeah, it's in my bag.

1:30:28Romesh Ranganathan:Can we see it? Can we dig it out? That'd be amazing.

1:30:31Louis Theroux:It might feel too... I wasn't going to mention it because it felt too random, but I did bring it. No, because you were the only... Did I mention it before?

1:30:37Romesh Ranganathan:No, but we did the hip-hop podcast.

1:30:39Louis Theroux:This is for the love of hip-hop, right?

1:30:41Romesh Ranganathan:But do you remember when... What show is this?

1:30:44Louis Theroux:Louis, we've asked you for... Someone sent me this because I mentioned it a few times in interviews and then in my book, got to get through this available on Amazon. Wow. Right to the very end.

1:30:54Romesh Ranganathan:You and I are both big hip-hop fans. And we're both of an elite group of people that regularly read Hip Hop Connection.

1:31:02Louis Theroux:From the very first issue.

1:31:04Romesh Ranganathan:And even more elite than that, we are both people that have written into Hip Hop Connection. Did you write in? Yeah, I did, yeah. It's really embarrassing. Do you know what? I can't find a record of it. I wrote in. This is so embarrassing. I wrote in to say that I didn't think that Dr. Dre's The Chronic was very good.

1:31:20Louis Theroux:That's bad.

1:31:21Romesh Ranganathan:Why did you do that? Because, can I tell you why? I'll tell you why. People can judge which is worse, your one or my one,

1:31:27Louis Theroux:because mine was pretty bad.

1:31:28Romesh Ranganathan:Because I was on such an East Coast hip hop fix. Right, you were a purist. And then when people started saying this Dre album was really great, I just couldn't handle it, you know?

1:31:39Louis Theroux:And I loved Ice Cube. That would have been 2000? No, what year was the chronic before that?

1:31:43Romesh Ranganathan:That was 90... I'm thinking of Dre 2000. Yeah, 92... Oh, it's way earlier. Okay, good luck.

1:31:52Louis Theroux:This is your letter. This was my letter. to Hip Hop Connection. I start with some softener, so you have to wait for the main courses towards the end.

1:32:00Romesh Ranganathan:Who had Hip Hop Connection? What's your name in this, by the way?

1:32:03Louis Theroux:King Lou E, Oxford. That was my handle. Yeah, go on. Some praises in order for a pacing February issue of HHC. I don't even know. Was that slang at the time?

1:32:18Romesh Ranganathan:I've never heard that used in any context.

1:32:22Louis Theroux:Oh, jeez. This is worse than I thought. It's good to see how far advanced groups like the JBs and Quest are in terms of positivity and awareness. Good, yeah. Is it good?

1:32:33Romesh Ranganathan:Well, it's good. You're right. You're right. You're showing love to the native tongue.

1:32:40Louis Theroux:My imprimatur of their Afrocentricity is so needed. Right? We need more awareness, says King Louis from Oxford. The clue is in the name. Plus their music is dope. Oh, jeez. As for rap, I'm regretting doing this. As for rap in the 90s, these guys point the way. MC Hammer, take note. There are better ways of edifying your listeners than by showing them you own four cars. You didn't say edifying in the same letter that you said pacing. Yeah, it's pacing and edifying. Apostrophe. But what's all this English musical... Now I'm getting down to business. But what's all this English musical patriotism bullshit?

1:33:31Louis Theroux:Anyone who's down for a She Rockers LP before a P.E., public enemy LP, needs their head examined. Fans of English rap are always militantly defensive about their music. All this proves is they've got a chip on their shoulder. If local hip-hop was any good, it would speak for itself. Let's face it, English rap sucks.

1:33:49Romesh Ranganathan:Oh! Oh!

1:33:53Louis Theroux:So I put that in and it was published. I was like, well, that's kind of cool, I guess. And then fast forward two issues. Yeah. And the responses appear. Well, King Louie, we hope you're reading this. You may have noticed that no one has agreed with you. Oh, this is the follow-on. So furthermore, these are a mere sample of the sack loads of mail received that rally against your allegations. Hold on. Is that from HHC, that comment? OK, I should start with the reply. So here are the replies. Fucking hell. I mean, how many do we need to do? Two. Here's one, OK. In response to King Louis, such a dope name.

1:34:35Louis Theroux:Shame about you being such a fucker.

1:34:41Louis Theroux:You obviously know nothing about real rap. You want to listen to some local homeboys and fly girls, but living in that university town it might be a bit hard. We think you should write back and apologise to all the English groups you've put down. You are the sort of dick we could do without. MC Fantase and DJ Pentak in Manchester.

1:35:03Louis Theroux:Then MC Fuse in Leighton Buzzard said, I'm writing in response to some turnip from Oxford called King Louis. I was ashamed to see someone from the UK diss in their home country scene. if you like American rap so much, why don't you do us all a favour and buy yourself a one-way ticket to the USA? That wasn't the end of the sentence I was expecting. No. The same goes for anyone else who shares his royal highness's attitude to UK rap. Face facts, kid. The only thing that sucks in the UK is you.

1:35:33Louis Theroux:I mean, and they go on and on. Holy shit. I could hear one more. Oh, should we do another one? Yeah, go on. With reference to the April edition of HHC Someone needs schooling around here Methinks it's limp dick King Lou E English rap doesn't suck And it ain't British patriotism my brother It's support for the very cause That's brought US rap to it's present stature

1:36:08Louis Theroux:you say loyal British fans have a chip on their shoulder I don't think so, supports what it's all about without that the likes of Hijack, Duke, MC Mello Blade, Richie Rich etc would not have made the success they have today anyway let the sales tell the story because there ain't nobody that's going to buy a record that sucks right hmm that's quite a quizzical end

1:36:34Louis Theroux:Wire up, it's negative. Oh, wise up, sorry, with a Z. Wise up, it's negativity that's keeping us down, not lack of talent. The voice of rap is for those who listen, and obviously, you ain't listening. ADM, South London. And then, well, King Louis, we hope you're reading this. You may have noticed that no one has agreed with you. Furthermore, these are a mere sample of the sack loads of mail received that rally against your allegations. Remember, keep an open mind, or else. it actually ended with a threat.

1:37:01Romesh Ranganathan:Bloody hell. How did you feel about that when that all happened? Kind of thrilled. Yeah, kind of thrilled. I don't think you were saying loads wrong there, actually. Yeah, I don't.

1:37:16Louis Theroux:Do you remember those artists? Hijack, yeah. Hijack. Melo, MC Melo. What was Hijack had a hit? What was it?

1:37:22Romesh Ranganathan:They did Horns of Jericho. Horns of Jericho, which was actually quite a good track, wasn't it?

1:37:27Louis Theroux:Yeah, the whole... I mean, they were...

1:37:28Romesh Ranganathan:Weren't they... Didn't Ice-T sign them to Rhyme Syndicate for a while? MC Duke, I remember. Yeah, MC Duke. Mellow's Gone Crazy. That was a great tune by MC Mellow.

1:37:36Louis Theroux:Another one remembers... Hijack Demon Boys get mentioned elsewhere. Demon Boys are great. I had that album.

1:37:41Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, so actually, fuck you, King Louis.

1:37:42Louis Theroux:Yeah, fuck King Louis, man. I think I was... I was being a little harsh. Fast forward 20 years, how much it changed. Yeah, absolutely. Isn't that crazy, though? It was definitely a nascent scene and hadn't reached its full potential. Well, I think... I think I helped. I do think you helped. I think I probably, if you reached out to those artists, a lot of them would say, we were kind of in second gear and then we saw a letter in Hip Hop Connection and we pulled our fingers out.

1:38:08Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, you're absolutely right. And can I just say on behalf of the UK hip hop scene, and this is one of the main reasons that we wanted to get you on. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Give it up for Louis Theron!

1:38:22Louis Theroux:From one limp dick to another. Thank you very much for that.

1:38:27Romesh Ranganathan:Thank you so much for watching this episode of the Romesh Ranganathan Show. I've been told that some of you are watching this, enjoying it, wallowing in it, but you still haven't subscribed. That's mad behaviour. You're going to miss episodes. Very silly. So follow and subscribe to the Romesh Ranganathan Show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. We drop new episodes every Monday and Thursday. On Monday, I'm here with amazing guests talking about their career, what they're up to, having a laugh with them. And then on Thursdays, I'm joined by my mum, Widely regarded as the audience's favourite Ranganathan And we answer your questions, your stories And your family dilemmas So I'll see you on Thursday When I'm back here with my mum, Shandy Send your questions and stories To podcast at rangabee.com Voice note or text on 07731 623 355 We genuinely love hearing from you And there's a good chance you'll hear yourself on the show See you next time Oh shut up Romesh This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company.

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