Michael Urie On Shrinking, Working With Harrison Ford & Oh, Mary!

22:36Romesh Ranganathan:jones in particular you sort of think that is an action film yeah but part of the reason that film is so all those that series films is so loved it's because of what he brings to that role when there isn't action happening right like yeah you know you sort of think like that that film is probably and this is no disrespect to the writing or the action sequences greater than the sum of its parts because of the way that harrison because of how lovable indiana jones is and yeah what he brings to it and it never feels like he's reaching either and i think that's true and shrinking as well because that that character i think in someone else's hands sort of the kind of grump the kind of grump, I guess.

23:14Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. You could easily, easily overplay that hand, right? Yeah, totally. And he's like kind of note perfect. Yeah. Yeah. He's right in the pocket. Yeah. And you're right with Indiana Jones, same thing. And he's, and a lot of people, when we started doing shrinking, they were like, it's weird that he's doing comedy. And I'm like, what do you mean? Indiana Jones is a comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Star Wars is a comedy. Like he's been doing, Han Solo is the comic relief. Yeah. He's been doing comedy our whole lives. He can totally do comedy, but also we lean on his pathos too on the show all the time.

23:50Romesh Ranganathan:But equally, you want to destroy him, right? In this awards thing. Oh, well, he's going down. Yeah. He has to. Imagine you beat Harrison Ford. Fuck that guy. Am I right? Give me that award. How much? How much? Because obviously you do theater and you do TV stuff and I know theater is really important to you. and what goes hand in hand with theatre I guess is somebody that loves acting and that sort of telling a story so how important are awards I mean it's an external validation isn't it how much does that mean to you I mean it's so cool to get nominated and I mean it would be so cool to win obviously it's great because it like gives you a little bit more juice I mean it's great for the career it doesn't do any harm it's sort of that it gives you juice and And it's a really nice feather in your cap.

24:45But that's not where we do it. And the real prize is that I have this job. Like if we get all these Emmys, get nominated for all these Emmys, maybe we'll get to do the show longer. That's kind of what I think. It's like I just want the show to keep going. And I want to keep working. And if this all helps that, great. it there's also a lot of stuff that's kind of annoying about about it like like it's it's stressful like yeah like you're like oh everyone's like do you think you'll get nominated again or do you think you and that's so creepy and weird and then you have to wake up early and i mean i didn't i don't do it i i one time thought i was gonna maybe get nominated for something and i woke up and i watched and i didn't and i was like i'm never doing that again that was so sad oh really Yeah, I was like, what a drag.

25:36Why did I do that? And it was such a bummer. Because I didn't... It wasn't something that I sought out to get nominated, but then people were like, you might. I think you might. I think you might. And then there were some other awards along the way, and I was like, oh, maybe I will. Maybe I will.

25:54Romesh Ranganathan:I think you might is an unacceptable thing to say. Yes, it's so weird. People think they're being nice, but it's horrible. It's creating a burden for you. It's setting up a potential disappointment, isn't it? Yes, totally. Like, oh, they're going to be sad for me now. Yeah, yeah. When I see them. I thought you would. Yeah. You were robbed. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you were robbed is one thing, but like, when it's ahead of time, like a prediction, it's like, eh. I know. But then I think that like, it's like you said, there's all these really good reasons to do it. It's really great for the team that make the show, all of that.

26:33Romesh Ranganathan:And I think people forget that because you sort of think there's part of you that, oh, I don't know how you feel, but part of me that feels like creative stuff. Why are we giving it awards? It feels a bit icky. Do you know what I mean? This thing is better than this thing. It doesn't make any sense. And you're comparing these two shows. It couldn't be more different. No, but it does benefit. And the show might run longer and stuff like that. But what I feel like is it awakens this part of you that you don't really like, right? Do you know what I mean? It's like that sort of thing of like, you go, oh, I like, I've been nominated.

27:04Romesh Ranganathan:This feels good. I don't like that it feels good. And now I'm going to tell everybody that it's just about being nominated, but I will be sad if I don't win. I have to pretend that I'm not. Yeah, or when you have to be like, when the camera's on you, you're like, okay, what's my face going to do when I hear it? When it's really, when I really lose, what's my face going to do? And that was what was so great last year about Jeff winning was like, we didn't expect him to win. And I was so happy for him to win. The show was over, it hadn't gotten anything, and it was beautiful. And he, like a win for him was a win for all us queers.

27:44And it was, and so my face really did what I wanted it to do. And all of us did. It became this like moment where all the gay guys were like, ah, like all, ah, clutching our pearls. And it was really sweet. And you know, you don't see that. and best actor in a drama. You don't see all the guys like, yay! For each other. And this year, I really am rooting for Harrison because I think, I mean, I think that's the better move for our show. Like, but I really want him to win. I love him. And talking about like the craft of acting, when I can, when I get him, I love talking about acting with him. because I've never been in an action movie.

28:28I would love to. I love action movies. It's my favorite kind of movie, and I'd love to be in one, but he really takes it seriously, and he talks about how he does his own stunts because that's the best part. That's the best acting scenes. And you can see it when he's fighting. It's a struggle. It's not just like some perfect warrior. yeah he's a guy yeah he's a guy like you know in an extraordinary situation throwing himself into it oh he's so good yeah he's great what's your favorite harrison ford movie now i'm interviewing

29:04Romesh Ranganathan:you uh i actually tell you can i tell you what i really loved i mean i love all the in the end jones films yes and um but what lies beneath yeah michelle pfeiffer oh my god he's he's bad yeah Yeah. So there's, I can't remember the exact shot, but I've just got this, she's running away from her or something happens and she shuts the door and then you just see his face in the mirror. Oh, yeah. His expression is so horrifying. Yeah. It's so great. I mean, yeah, I think that's probably up there, I'd say. Yeah. What about you? Well, working girl is really important to me. Yeah. I told him it's gay canon.

29:46And he was like, why?

29:50it's like because of alec baldwin and i was like no not because of alec baldwin because of you because you're so sweet and hot and and and they're so you know she's like this fabulous freak and and we love her and that's what you know that's what we got that's what we gravitate towards and that and the score is amazing and it's just such a great movie but i think it's the fugitive yeah i could watch the fugitive right now yeah from beginning to end yeah it's the coolest movie and it was like a disaster when they were making it is that right yeah they thought it was gonna be terrible they were all like oh this is gonna be a complete disaster it was like they didn't have a script they didn't have a and uh and then it's just perfect yeah he's so i mean of course tommy lee jones is hilarious and is uh won the oscar but that doesn't work if harrison doesn't have the the tragedy yes if he doesn't carry that like intense tragedy all the way with him through the through the movie and have you had you've had

30:47Romesh Ranganathan:that conversation with him yeah what's it like to talk to the guy that did that about that he's he doesn't like he doesn't really like he you can get her to talk about things you have to be really like you know i got her to talk about star wars the other day because i was coming here and i was like where should i hang out and when i'm in london and he and he was started and it was so weird to hear him be like, first time I went for Star Wars. It was the first time I'd ever heard him say Star Wars. That must have felt incredible. I was like, I did it. I got him to say it. And then you got to hide your excitement.

31:24Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I know. Oh, Star Wars. Oh, I've been called Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, wait, wait, wait, that one. Yeah. I remember that movie. Did you know that's gay canon? It is gay canon. That one's gay canon too. So did he talk about the experience? He didn't talk. He was more talking about like the experience of being here and shooting it. Right, right. Not the actual. More about the London of it. Not about the. No, fair enough. But that would be, I think, I don't think he really. Because you know, everybody wants to talk about that. And so he doesn't, he's bored of that. Yeah, I can imagine.

32:00Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, just I can't even imagine what it's like to have people repeat it. Because they've had an experience with that. Right. Well, and also the other thing is we all know it better than him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. Definitely we know the movies better than he knows them. What about that? You know when you did that facial expression when he takes off the... When you suddenly realize who he is? I don't know what you're talking about.

32:25And he doesn't, you know, he never signs a contract. So he didn't have a three picture deal. He had a one picture deal. and that's why they freeze him in carbonite at the end of Empire Strikes Back because he wanted it off he's like I want out of this and so they were like alright alright we'll do this then and then when they got him back for Return of the Jedi they were frozen that's so funny

32:45Romesh Ranganathan:it's such a cool story point isn't the carbonite thing no he just didn't want to do it exactly we've had this idea you're frozen yeah but when he was doing the he came back after season one of the seasons and he'd just done the Captain America movie and I was like here's a nice how are you doing that how was the Captain America movie he's like and I was like he's like do you know those movies I was like yeah I love those movies I've watched them all and he's like and then he goes I'm the Red Hulk

33:20Romesh Ranganathan:so fun can we talk about that Les Mis scene it's so brilliant yeah you sat in the front of the car just going for it how did that how did that come about so jason siegel and neil patrick harris used to be on a show called how i met your mother together and i guess when they were shooting that they would you know and it was years and years of doing that and they probably they're both jason's very musical he taught himself music and has a great voice plays piano taught himself piano and of course nph is a musical theater guy and they must have just like discovered that they knew all the lyrics to Les Mis.

33:59Right. And they would do that. And then they did it in a couple of interviews. So that was like a parlor trick that they did, which I didn't know until this came along. Bill Lawrence, my boss, came and knocked on the door and he was like, we got this idea. And anytime he knocks on my door and says we have this idea, it's going to be great. You know, like he's always like, you know, he's like wants to make sure I'm okay with it, but it's always something really fun. um big swing and like the monologues or or um les mis and so he explained it to me and he was like we're thinking about we're thinking we're gonna do that do you do you do you think you you could learn that and i was like learn it just tell me which part i'm playing and um and and so i got to be javert which is the part i wanted um and whatever and i and like and like i'm i've been into musicals and i can i can sort of sing but uh it's it's really more of uh it's more like i'm really more like holding out pitches than singing um so i'll never actually be in les mis but gosh you could be in les mis couldn't you i could be tenardier maybe you got it but javeri like you really want a good voice i don't i don't know if i could really i don't know if i could really handle it um i'm more of a comedy comedy musical theater person but but boy was that a fun day and is it is it true is this a myth that harrison didn't know that you're going to do that he he knew something was going to happen right but the script just said jimmy and brian sing the confrontation from les mis right that's all it said it didn't have like lyrics yeah and and i don't think he knew what les mis was or he's not gonna have looked it up to know what his reaction i know and also he there's another thing he talks about with acting is and the reason why he likes doing the action so much and he talks about this a lot with the parkinson's um because his character has parkinson's and and he doesn't you know he's like when you have parkinson's you don't know what it's going to be like day to day and and he's really invested in this surprise so he loves a surprise so and he and if he doesn't have to learn lines all the better yeah so here's a scene where he doesn't have to learn any lines and he can just react yeah and of course his reaction is incredible to it in the back and he does every they sent me the dailies the day after um which was the only time they've ever done this they sent me the dailies and it was just one shot, one take.

36:38And it was a locked off shot of the three of us. And I was like, oh, I can't wait to see my work, to see my Javert and to see how Jason and I play off of each other. And I just watched Harrison in the backseat reacting because it was just so real. He was confused. He was annoyed. He was touched. He was delighted. He was scared. He does everything in that backseat. And I was like, oh yeah, that's right. That's what he does. He's a movie star.

37:13Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, all of you smashed it. It was incredible. Oh, thank you. It was a real special day. It was one of those days that everyone was like... You knew at the time that that was good, right? We all knew like, oh, this is a cool day. Yeah, yeah. Because we were driving around Pasadena on a trailer. You know, we're not really driving. It's like pretend on the back of a trailer. And it was a beautiful day. And people were like, you know, like they see us drive by. And they're like, oh, my God. And the crew was happy. And, you know, it's fun. It's fun when you do a big scene like that. There's a big truck and like lock off streets and there's police and everything like that.

37:56What do they call it when they do this thing? When they put the car on the... What is that called? Okay, it's called a process trailer. Right. But I don't know why. And actually, there was another time I was in a scene with Harrison and Jason in a car. And they were calling it a process trailer. And the other fun thing about being in a car with Harrison and Jason is we're trapped there between takes. We don't wander off to our trailers or whatever. And so that's when we can really be like, so, Harrison, tell us about... We can really like asking questions. And this other day when we were shooting on a process trailer, I was like, so you guys are movie stars.

38:34Why do they call it a process trailer? And they didn't know. I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know why it's called that. And he was like, oh, but you got to see this. And he pulled out his phone and he was like, we had this great motorcycle chase in the last Indy. And there was a process trailer. And he pulled out his phone and he was like, how do I find pictures? Hey, help me with it. And Jason's like, oh, it's that one. Yeah, right, right, right. and then he's like, damn it, look at this fish I caught. And he never found them. He never found the pictures of the process trailer. But it was really sweet.

39:10That was another time

39:11Romesh Ranganathan:where you got a little bit in there about a movie. We've got a question from my mom. Oh, good. I don't know what the question is, so I would like to distance myself from whatever this might be, unless it's good, in which case, I'm taking credit. Let's have a listen. Hi, Michael. I am Ramesh's mom Shanti. How are you? Good, thank you. You are very funny and talented actor. I'm very proud of you. I hear you are just performing in West End. All the theatre you have done, what are you proud of? Can you please share it with me and Ramesh? Enjoy the podcast. Look forward to meeting you one day. Enjoy the weather.

39:57Romesh Ranganathan:Love you. Bye-bye. Oh, love you. That was very sweet. You don't have to meet her, don't worry. That's not a thing. So don't start panicking about that. I was hoping she'd walk in. Here I am. That was so sweet. What is your favorite bit of theater? Oh, that's a great question. Well, the thing that you're most proud of, I guess. That's what she was asking.

40:20Well, there's a couple that come to mind. Well, I'm very proud of O'Mary, and I'm very proud to be part of it. It was something that came to New York and took off Broadway by storm.

40:34Romesh Ranganathan:It just blew up, right? It blew up. Yeah. And I have been a fan of Cola Scola for a long time. And the moment I saw the first piece of art for the show, I was like, what is this madness? And I was so excited. and then it was a huge hit off Broadway. Couldn't get a ticket. And then they moved to Broadway and I was like, oh gosh, I hope it does well on Broadway because Broadway's a really tough. It's a really tough place to succeed. And it has gone better than anyone expected. I mean, I'm sure some people saw it coming. Those producers ended up being very clever and the play is just amazing. And then it came here and it works here.

41:23And it's a hit here. So, and I never thought I would, I didn't think that I'd ever get to be in it. Because I didn't think, I'm not quite what they want for a Mary. I'm not really right for Mary's husband. And when they came and asked me, I'd literally, my partner and I had just been talking about how much we loved it, like the night before. And like, wouldn't it be fun to be, maybe I could be Mary's husband someday. Maybe, maybe, maybe I could do Mary someday. That would be fun. And then they were like, we want you to play Mary's teacher. And I was like, Mary's teacher. Mary's teacher? Because this is a role that I thought I would be to what?

41:59For it. And I never even thought of it. That wasn't on the list of possible... No, no. I just never even thought that. And it's such a... And I can't say much because there's a lot of great twists. So I don't want to say really what he does or what it is. But it's everything I've... It's a role that has all the things that I love the most in it. And so I was honored to get asked, and even more honored to get asked to come here and be part of the capture. We're filming it next week. So I'm really proud. That's sort of more I'm proud of myself for that happening. I'm grateful.

42:42Romesh Ranganathan:But it is, I mean, O'Mary is, I went to watch it a few months ago and it's so, so funny. I don't, I actually genuinely can't think of many times I've been in a theater where the laughter explodes at so many points during that performance. There are things that people scream. Yeah. And like people like, like they're watching, I don't know, like people are doubled over and they're sort of shocked. But it's not shocking. It's shocking in a good way. You know, it's not like, it's just like, there's so many cool left turns and surprises. It was such a good time. It's a breakneck pace. It moves at such a fast pace.

43:32Romesh Ranganathan:You can't believe how quickly. And when it's done, you can't quite believe it's done. It's like a rollercoaster thing. And I watched it before we started here with the British cast, before we took over. And I hadn't watched it in over a year. And, oh, it was just so wonderful to be reminded of. And I was sitting in the back, so I got to watch people too. Just how shocking it is and how surprising. and how many laughs there are and how it never, you know, like there's some plays, I've been in lots of plays that are funny. And when they, when the audience starts laughing, you wait, but we don't wait.

44:13No. We just blow right through. We wait a couple of times just to make sure you hear something. But like for the most part, the sound design is good enough that like, you'll hear it. Yeah. And so we just keep going and the audiences are like, well, okay. And catch up. And then the scene, between scenes, it goes to pitch black and and you're just like what is happening what is going on and then another scene starts right away and there's no time Sam Pinkleton who directed it is brilliant did you notice

44:44Romesh Ranganathan:a difference because obviously it's American history yeah yeah yeah and you'll so it was it was in on Broadway off Broadway then on Broadway seeing it in London and the West End yeah did you notice a difference in the way that audiences were responding to it so no No, actually. I thought I would. Maybe a little bit, but no. I thought there would be more of a difference. Maybe y 'all are just really up to American history, up to speed with American history. There's also a pre-show announcement here that we don't have in America that gives you just three little important points in a very cute, funny way that are kind of all you really need to know.

45:32Who Abraham Lincoln was, he was president during the Civil War. He was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth shortly after winning the Civil War. And he had a wife named Mary. And that's really all you need to know. Yeah. That's what happened to that guy. And this is who he was married to. And here she is. Here's our version of her, which is like, you know, completely fabricated. But I was prepared for the reaction to be different or less at times.

46:05Romesh Ranganathan:Well, I wondered when it first started, how it was going to go over, you know, because you sort of think. Yeah. I've heard you know you've heard that it's a phenomenon in America but obviously they're gonna have a different relationship is it gonna work here obviously it's absolutely smashed yeah I saw I saw another play here that is a very different kind of play but has some things in common it's 1536 have you heard about this I've heard about it I've not seen it it is incredible yeah totally thrilling and it is about a piece of British history and and I and when I told when I told some people I was going, they were like, well, do you know the story?

46:44And, and it's very

46:45Romesh Ranganathan:condescending. Okay, Michael, you're going, but maybe do a bit of background reading, read a book. And it's a, so like, but what the thing is, O'Mary is not really about American history. It's just like, sort of put there. And it's just the backdrop, essentially. Yes, exactly. And 1536 is the same. It's not really about Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. It's just during that time. And I knew that Henry VIII had six wives and I knew that Anne Boleyn was one of them. And that's really all I needed to know. I don't think I missed anything. and it also moves at a breakneck pace and there's no time to think and there's no time to and obviously it's not or not obviously it is not a comedy per se although it is at times very funny but I remember thinking oh this is kind of like there are similarities to these two plays one's about one has a backdrop of American history one has a backdrop of British history but you don't really need that And I think 1536 should go to Broadway, should come to New York, because it is really about so much more than just this slice of history.

48:05Obviously, theater is incredibly important to you.

48:08Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. What is your relationship with it, and why does it continue to be such a big thing for you? I think there's something... It's interesting. We were talking, maybe before we started, about doing it night to night. and about, especially if you've never done theater, how that is a weird, it's weird. You know, like in TV and film, you do it until it's perfect and then you're like, great, we got it. Let's move on. And in the theater, it's every night you go back and do it again. And especially with a comedy, when you're rehearsing it, it can get really frustrating because it stops being funny to everyone in the room.

48:49And you're like, well, I don't want to do this anymore. and what's going to happen. And then for me, there's always a point in the process as we get closer to an audience coming that I get this very warm and emotional feeling about when the audience is going to come in and they're not going to know what they're going to do. And it's sort of cheesy and silly, but they're going to come in here and they have no idea what we're going to do. We've been in a room together for a month planning it and then we're going to go and we're going to make sure it's all perfect and then we're going to do it for them.

49:29They have no idea what we're going to do. Even if they know the play, even if they've seen it before, tonight's different. They really don't know what's going to happen. And I think that that is the thing that makes me always want to go. It's that secret sauce. It's the relationship between the hundreds of people who come in for the first time and those of us who have prepared it, we're going to give them something that they have not experienced, even if they've been before. It's not quite the same. And I'm sure you feel this way with stand-up too. If you have a show that's set, that you do the same jokes, it's not quite the same from show to show.

50:14Romesh Ranganathan:No, and also sometimes one of the things that people say to me is, because I laugh a lot after I've, you know, I don't laugh. People go, how come you're laughing during the show? But actually what happens is I know what I'm about to say. And then sometimes I'm laughing at their reaction. Because sometimes you might say something quite shocking. And then you hear the laugh and I sort of get the giggles about the fact that I've just said that thing to them. Do you know what I mean? I love that. That's exactly it. Yeah. So you're sort of enjoying their reaction. And I do feel like when, you know, with stand-up, you don't say exactly the same thing every night, but you can see into the future.

50:54Romesh Ranganathan:You are basically, you can see into the future. It's like what you're saying. I know that we're building up. There's an excitement going, I'm building up to a big punch here, or this routine is going to build and build and build, and then I'm going to drop the thing. You know, like all of that is really exciting. And so it's an audience that makes that happen. And also I think like, I think when you go and watch theater and often people really enjoy drama and comedy on TV and wouldn't ever think about going to the theater. The difference in that experience is you are watching it. The fact that you're in an audience adds so much to that experience.

51:32Romesh Ranganathan:I think it's that kind of thing of being in a room with everybody that's experiencing that thing for the first time. It's pretty exciting. Do you know what I mean? And I don't know how you feel about this, but like, one of the things that I grew up not thinking theater was for me, like, you know, I just sort of never thought my parents didn't go to the theater. It was like, it was like a, it's like a posh thing, basically. You know what I mean? Sure. And then it was only when my wife started taking me to theater, she was a drama teacher, she started taking me to theater. I was like, holy shit, this is a great night out, right?

52:02Romesh Ranganathan:Is that, in America, is it as exclusive? Yeah. It feels pretty exclusive. Yeah. I think it's more exclusive in America, frankly. I feel like there are more walks of life that come to the theater here than there. I think it's more of a, I don't know. I feel like it's more part of upbringing here. One's upbringing. I don't know. I mean, obviously, I don't know. I mean, the ticket prices obviously make it, they force an exclusivity onto it, right? Regardless of whether you want to go or not. Yes, for sure. Because you can just stay at home and watch TV for free. Yeah. Or go to the movies and see something for a much cheaper.

52:43Romesh Ranganathan:I guess like, you know, if you're going to watch a film, if you don't enjoy it, you're like, I've lost 18 quid or something. Right. Whereas if you go to the theater and you don't enjoy it. A hundred pounds. That's a real kick in the day. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and that'll turn you off forever. Yeah. Potentially. I'm not going to roll the dice on this again, right? That's a thing. And in America, it's a major thing. And in America, it's not – I don't think we teach our children about the theater enough for them to love it. And I think that there's a lot of theater that doesn't – that reflects a particular demographic back to its audience.

53:34Yeah. And so those people like it more because it's about them, you know? which is a bummer. And it's always exciting when something can break through and appeal to everyone, like O'Mary. I mean, I defy anyone to not enjoy that play.

53:57Romesh Ranganathan:When I went to watch O'Mary, one of the things I thought was amazing about it is you are sat amongst people. I mean, as we were leaving, there were some people in there and I thought, I can't believe you've just watched what I've watched. Do you know what I mean? In terms of what I've just seen, I can't believe that somebody that looks like you has just watched that and looked like you loved it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's mad. Yeah. And it's like in a good way, in a really good way, you just go, holy shit, man. I would have thought you'd have hated this. But we had fun, huh? How about that?

54:30It's a great time, wasn't it?

54:32Romesh Ranganathan:Now, with that in mind, you know, you just come out of Reflecting Theatre back, you are obviously a real advocate for queer theatre. Yeah. And you founded Pride Plays. Yes. What's that all about? So, yeah. So to that end, what we've been discussing about access and what stories get told, I and my co-founders of this festival, Pride Plays Festival, obviously there's no lack of queer people in the theater. Like it's a, it's a haven for, for queer people to, to, to find. Um, but so often, um, um, there'll be a stack of plays on the desk of, you know, someone at a theater company and they'll put plays in the queer pile that like don't necessarily belong together.

55:26we contain multitudes there's lots of lots of stories about queer people and to put you know like a tragic story of you know people suffering from AIDS in the 80s with like oh Mary is not fair you know that's like they're so very different and so a theater might not program both of them simply because

55:51Romesh Ranganathan:but it's not a genre Do you know what I mean? Right. Yeah. I know exactly what you mean. And that's their prerogative. If they don't want to program Angels in America because they programmed O'Mary, all right, that's fine. You don't have to do that. Those two plays have nothing to do with each other. They couldn't be any further or further. But okay. And we thought, and New York doesn't have, there's a lot of cities that have queer theaters. theaters that are devoted to doing queer work with queer artists and New York doesn't there's a few that you know do more but we thought where what if there's a place where we can give queer actors queer writers and queer directors like an entry or mid-level opportunity so that it doesn't have to be like get all the way up to the top or bust and and we started when we the first time we did the festival.

56:49We did it for the 50th anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising. And it was also World Pride in New York. And we thought, okay, let's do four stage readings of plays. We'll do some new plays. We'll do some great works, maybe stuff that people haven't seen in a while. And we'll make sure that we include the entire community, all the letters, all the colors of the rainbow, all that stuff. And we were like, okay, four is not enough. And we ended up doing 19. And it was amazing. It was really, really thrilling. And every year the festival's taken on a different, kind of a different look. And right now we're in a period where we're in a transitional period where we're trying to figure out what the next, we're trying to make, we're trying to take a big step and not little steps and really expand our tent, which is, we always say, how big can the tent be and um and it it seems to mean a lot to people um that are interested in doing queer work and um and finding it hard to break into the business because this is tough show business is really tough and there's a huge there's like you can get really really rich really really fast if you hit the right if you hit the right jackpot or you can struggle and do amazing, incredible, great work for audiences of 60 in basements.

58:14And we just want to level that up a little bit.

58:18Romesh Ranganathan:No, look, it's an incredible thing to do. Thank you. So well done for doing it. Thank you. We're going to play a little game now. Okay. It's called Misquoted.

58:30Romesh Ranganathan:It's misquoted. I'm going to give you five quotes. Some of them you said, some of them you didn't. And I just want you to tell me whether you think you said them or not. Now, in order to, well, sort of a hint, some of them we've adapted to something you've said. Okay. Okay, so it could be close to something you've said. Paraphrase. Yeah, so don't let that mislead you. I'd hate for you to not enjoy this game because we haven't given you the full details. Okay, thank you. Okay, so good luck to you. Thank you. There is literally nothing at stake. Great. I mean, I already have a prize. There you go.

59:01Romesh Ranganathan:You've won. We'd like to think the absence of Jeopardy makes it more interesting. So here you go. Here's your first one. Did you or did you not say this? I've played enough fabulous gay guys to last a lifetime.

59:20Romesh Ranganathan:I think that sounds like something I said. No, you didn't say that. I didn't say that. No. Is it close to it? It's sort of similar. I've played a lot of mean gay guys, and now I'm playing a nice one on Shrinky, is what you actually said. okay that's fair yeah the to last a lifetime is what gave me a little bit of pause because because you're not done I'm not done I'm not done playing fabulous gang highs

59:53Romesh Ranganathan:okay here's your next one so that one you got wrong okay fine fair fair but there's nothing at stake there's nothing at stake that's literally that's literally as high as the jeopardy gets there's me going you got that one wrong great and if you can take that I think you're fine yeah here's your next one he's not mugging like I do he's just behaving and that's why he's a movie star oh that's I said that yeah that's something I said you're talking about Harrison Ford yeah for sure he's not mugging like I do you don't mug do you oh I mug you think you mug yeah I mean I certainly I have much sharper edges uh than harrison harrison's much more organic right right right yeah do you how much do you theater and tv obviously such different acting skill sets right yeah how much are you still thinking about the craft of what you do like do you are you trying to push it all the time oh yeah really oh yeah for sure i mean especially when i'm working with someone who's 84 and doing that yeah and like always trying to get better right right you know like he takes it every scene so seriously.

1:00:59Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. And, and you, you know, you don't, you don't give anything less than a hundred when you see a guy like that. Yeah. Who's 84 and richer than, you know. Yeah. I mean, why, I wouldn't give a shit. You know, if I was that, if I had that much money, I had that career behind me, I'd fucking phone it in every day.

1:01:24Romesh Ranganathan:I'd go, what are you going to do is rubbish. Yeah. I swear he was shitting that scene. But he's rich. Okay, here's your next one. I swear on the abs of Mark Wahlberg. Is this like something I said, or maybe I said in something? Could it? I couldn't. That sounds like something I maybe said on Ugly Betty. Correct. Yeah. That was a tricky one. You nailed it. That sounds like something Mark St. James would say. That is from Ugly Betty. Do you ever think, I mean, Ugly Betty was an incredible thing for you, right? Yeah. Oh, my God. huge break. Yeah. Huge, amazing break. Did it feel like an amazing, huge break at the time?

1:02:01Absolutely. And that's because, well, because I had no money and then suddenly had a real job. And, um, and, and it was so fat, like that was in the days where we had pilot season and you would audition for the pilot, get the pilot, make the pilot in like a month or two months. And then if it was picked up it would be on tv in like three more months so like you i went from having three roommates in a tiny apartment in williamsburg brooklyn to being in magazines in la within four months that is why yeah it's crazy what does that do is that difficult to do with mentally because that feels like it was so fun it was like so exciting and so fun and everyone was so cool that, no, not really.

1:02:49And that show in particular, I'm sure that it's hard for some. I mean, I'm sure that like when, you know, I was also not supposed to be, you know, I was supposed to be in the pilot only. And so everything that was coming was like extra. I had no expectations. I was not supposed to be. But Vanessa Williams, whose assistant I was, loved me and took me kind of under her wing. And they were like, let's keep him. We like him. let's keep them we like them together and so i got to stay and um and so everything was like a bonus everything was was was cake and and on that show there we weren't there were none of us and shrinkings like this too i think this is really like it's you know like we all we're all fragile we all have egos and we're all worried about like being replaced or fired or or or or eclipsed or whatever.

1:03:45And on both of these two TV shows that I've gotten to do, I'm the only one like me. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so I'm not like looking around thinking, hey, how did they get that part? Or why don't I get a joke like that? Or why don't I get to wear clothes like that? Or I wonder what they're, you know, there's nothing like that. We're all different ages. We're all different types, different backgrounds. And on Ugly Betty, that was particularly, because there was several of us that were young, all different, and then there were some older actors like Vanessa, Judith Light, Tony Plana, who played Betty's dad, Alan Dale, who played Daniel Meade's dad.

1:04:25And these four actors particularly, and then Rebecca Romijn came on who was a little bit older than us. They were very clear to us, the younger people, that we had something special. That's amazing. Yeah, and they were like, this is good. This is really, really, this, it's not always like this. And it's not always nice. It's not always a good group. It's not always good material. And it's not always like about something that you can be proud of. And then also successful. So they were, there was never a moment where we didn't, when all of us on that show weren't keenly aware that we were a part of something really special.

1:05:07Romesh Ranganathan:Vanessa Williams is in London right now. In the Devil Wears Prada. Yeah. Have you met up? Yes, yes. I saw her. I was here a few months ago and I saw her. She's coming to see me on Tuesday. So, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Okay, here's your last one. You've done really well. Thank you. It's like riding a bike, but it's a different bike. It's like, how does this bike work? I said that about O'Mary. You did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said that about doing O'Mary with Colascola instead of Jinx Monsoon. Yeah. Because they're both playing Mary, but they are so different and so brilliant. and that's what's so great about, I mean, you know, like, O'Mary is, it's like, it's, it's, it's like Hamlet, like, like, these characters could be any kind of, they could have any kind of interpretation.

1:05:54They can have a Jinx Monsoon, or they can have a Kola Skola, or they can have a Catherine Tate. Maya Rudolph just did it in New York, like, there's so many different kinds of people that could play the role.

1:06:05Romesh Ranganathan:And then, and does that then, I guess that changes what you're doing in response a little bit yeah a little bit yeah um for sure and i mean i've my part without giving anything away is is uh there's a it's kind of reactionary so i'm i which is great i get to sort of like take in whatever's coming at me but but the tricky thing is like pace is different or size is different or or speed you know speed and and volume and stuff uh that's that's the calibration yeah but it's great it's really fun to to do with um different marys yeah um well look you did very well congratulations mike you're on on misquoted i thought it's fantastic yeah um now we're sort of done but we like to end the podcast on like a a big moment in a desperate attempt to try and you know obviously there's loads of podcasts out there yeah everybody's just trying to do whatever they can to get the currency of attention it's like a fucking cesspit out there.

1:07:03Romesh Ranganathan:So we would love, like a little, there's a little closer, we asked for an exclusive or something like that, but we'd love to ask you the best advice you've ever been given, just to close us out. The best advice I was given, I would say this is the clearest advice. I've been given this advice in a few different ways, but it was Michael Patrick King, who is an amazing TV creator and film director. He directed a lot of the Sex and the City. He was the Sex and the City guy. And he created The Comeback with Lisa Kudrow. And he and I have had two, unfortunately, failed attempts to work together. Two projects that were very cool and very exciting that didn't get made.

1:07:50But I got to know him two different times in my career and he has this great advice that's best for um people who are trying to break into show business and it's it's follow the green lights is the way he puts it and when i was first starting out i kind of did this organically and and i felt crazy about it i just like did anything I said yes to anything. And I went anywhere and would do – I would do – play in a basement. I would do reading at your kitchen table, whatever. I'll do anything. And then when he said follow the green lights, when he was – I had something that I was like, I'm not sure if I should do this or that.

1:08:35And he was like, follow the green lights. Don't hold out for something that may or may not happen when somebody wants you. Because sometimes this is like such a subjective business that sometimes somebody has to tell you what they want from you, what you're good at. Like I had dreams. There's things I wanted to do. And I said, I wanted to be this. I wanted to be that. This is the kind of work I want to do. And that wasn't happening. But other things were happening. They were like, no, we'd like you to come do this. I know you'd like to do that. But no, you'll come do this. and I was like, but what about that?

1:09:11And it actually was, going where the people actually wanted me was the right move. Not trying to fit myself into a mold that wasn't desired of me, but following the yeses, the green lights, not trying to push my way through a red light.

1:09:31Romesh Ranganathan:Because weirdly, you're the worst at identifying what the best things are you have to offer, right? Exactly. And so you've got this perception of what it is you're going to be or what you're going to do. And somebody just goes, you're really, and then you can fall into the trap and go, well, I'm going to hold out for this thing. And sometimes this thing's much better. Sometimes this thing can lead to that thing down the road, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, exactly. It might put you in a position where you can make the decision later. But until then, go with what they want because, hey, they want.

1:09:59Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. They want. And that, you can't take that for granted. They want is something you cannot take for granted. Yeah, if they want, give. Yeah.

1:10:10Romesh Ranganathan:Absolutely fantastic to chat to you with such huge fans. Thank you for coming on. Thank you. Mark O 'Yoo, everybody. Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode. Before you go, if you've enjoyed this episode and you've not subscribed, that's a bold decision. Crazy behavior. Follow and subscribe to The Romesh Ranganathan Show wherever you listen. It helps me. Really, like, really helps me. It helps the team. And it costs you absolutely nothing. We drop episodes every Monday and Thursday. Mondays I'm joined by great guests Thursdays my mum Shanti joins me to answer your questions and family dilemmas I'll see you Thursday with mum who, let's face it is who you're actually here for If you've got a problem you want to solve or a story you want to share send it to podcast.rangabi.com voice not or text us on 07731 623 355 We can't promise good advice but you might end up on the show See you soon!

1:11:02Oh shut up Romesh