Sophie Ellis-Bextor: Saltburn Success, Stealing from the Royals & Embracing Age

20:39Romesh Ranganathan:I sort of like to wallow in it. You have to know yourself. You have to know what works for you and if it's making you feel okay or not. You know, like, I think there's like a... Wallow. I think there's like a... Going on the chat rooms. Yeah, or I'll, you know, I sort of enjoy, I'll often go on to Daily Mail if there's a Daily Mail story about me. You read the comments. Yeah, I love it. I feel sort of invigorated. I know what you mean. This person hates me. Well, I know what you mean. And also there's something pleasing about, wow, I'm creating such a strong reaction just by existing. Yeah, because I think if you're trying to be vanilla, nobody's trying to be vanilla, but what I mean is you can't be all things to all people.

21:19Absolutely. So then if somebody really hates you, at least that's passionate.

21:24Romesh Ranganathan:I agree. If somebody's having a reaction to you, I kind of like it. I'm absolutely the same. And sometimes I feel like the less talent you think I have, the more impressed you should be, I'm still here. Yeah. And sometimes I just think, God, this person's so angry. Every day I continue to have a career. I must be making them so sad. Yeah. You know what, Romesh? I think I actually am quite like that too. And I used to read all of that stuff. Yeah. And I once engaged with someone as well. and I normally don't and it's because someone started talking about my children which I do think crosses the line and I did write a little essay and I was like What did you, obviously angry so what did you say, was it a reasoned argument?

22:02I said I'm supposed to pretend that I don't read these comments and that what you've said is not something I'll see and I just want you to think about the fact that you went online and commented about someone else's children and you might not think much about that again but what you do there is put a little drop on the water and all these concentric circles of negativity and if you look underneath your comment people have gone on and said you can't say that kind of thing so you've affected other people's day by what you put out into the world and maybe you're fine with that maybe you're fine to make a comment about someone else's children and have all the concentric circles but maybe you're not and maybe you want to think a little bit about what made you do that so I'm just going to leave that with you and just when you do it just don't think it doesn't matter because it puts something out into the world and you have to be okay with

22:47Romesh Ranganathan:that so no i was quite like i was so happy can i be clear i didn't make that comment well i was so pleased with my reply and then i went back i thought actually i'm gonna copy it what was the response well the whole thing got she deleted her comment which deleted my very considered very eloquent response so i didn't get a chance to do what i would normally do which is like copy and paste in case i need it again another day yeah but maybe it wasn't that eloquent But I was like, I'm just going to make her think. I suspect what happened is that person commented without thinking it's a real person.

23:18Romesh Ranganathan:Of course. So they're just going, oh, this would be a fun thing to do. I get that. I totally get that. And so then when you respond, actually what you're doing is forcing that person to engage. Absolutely. That's why I said I'm supposed to pretend I don't even look at this stuff. But I do. And I think that the desire sometimes to go back into the room and hear what people said about you after you left is a really very understandable human instinct. It's fascinating. And it's that Oscar Wilde thing as well of like, what's better than being gossiped about is not being spoken about. You know, there's something in it, like you said, or it means someone is actually engaging with you.

23:53Even if negative attention is still attention.

23:56Romesh Ranganathan:Somebody, we had a problem with our youngest son's school placement. I heard about that. I remember that was around the time I saw you last actually. Yeah. When I posted that video, like a lot of people were going, oh thanks for mentioning this because I'm having that problem but a lot of people said uh oh boo who uh privileged celebrity doesn't get his own way for once right which is I do but what I would say is I do understand it from their point of view I I actually sort of think I can understand you feel like that but somebody this is the one that really sort of stuck out somebody said um you you're like I you annoy me so much that it actually makes me happy that this has gone wrong for you.

24:34Ooh. And then I, yeah,

24:37Romesh Ranganathan:but I thought that is like, I get like annoying privileged celebrity, da, da, da, that all, I actually understand it. Like that's reasonable, I think, in that world. But that was like, I was like, oh my God, man, like you must really hate me. You know? Yeah, but then you've got to think about the sort of person that actually also sits down, like types that, like what are you doing? What kind of a life is going on there? So tell us all about your new album, Perimenopop. Perimenopop, yeah, there she is. The best title. Oh, thank you. It's the best title. I think I commented, or I might have messaged you or something, but that's an excellent title.

25:07Romesh Ranganathan:So what's the inspiration behind it? I'm so glad you say that because part of me is still quite surprised at my boldness in a way because I don't think I would have done that when I was younger. I've done anything sort of punchy like that. Well, you can't bring out Peri Menopal. It would have been weird, wouldn't it? People would be going, what's going on? What is she talking about? Is she okay? Yeah, can you imagine? I'm just pre-empting it. But I think what I mean by that is also when I was younger, there was such a gap between, you know, the stage version of you is supposed to be this sort of armoured version where you diminish or quieten down any aspect that you think doesn't become part of the pop star aesthetic or the lifestyle.

25:46The bulletproof pop star. Yeah, or like anything that's a bit, I don't know, square or dorky or silly or uncool, any of those things you tell yourself, like, let's pretend that doesn't happen because on stage, I am this person. But I think as time has gone by, I've really lessened the gap. So I think with this title, it's like the most sort of 360 I've felt in terms of bringing my whole life into what I do with music as well. So that involves, yeah, getting older. And generally it's not thought of as a very sexy thing for a pop star to talk about, you know, being in middle age. and that's what I've quite enjoyed about the juxtaposition.

26:30Like, well, why not? This is what happens. So let me just put it front and centre because it's possible that all these things can coexist. I can be that person and still get on stage and wear tinsel sometimes. It's all me.

26:43Romesh Ranganathan:It's quite a bold, it is a bold thing to do. I mean, you used the word yourself, but were you nervous about that at all? Because really you are putting yourself out there, I guess. Do you know what I mean? And actually what you're supposed, if you sort of think about, you know, musicians, artists, and particularly for women, what a lot of people are doing is trying to just disguise the fact that any ageing or any getting older is happening at all. And actually what you're supposed, you're just supposed to go, no, I'm not getting older, I'm not. So for you to embrace it, in hindsight, it feels really smart.

27:21Romesh Ranganathan:but I'm not saying you did it in a cynical way, but I mean, as soon as I saw the title, I thought there'll be so many people that just go, holy shit, that's such, you know, like that is such a cool thing to do. I hope so. But you've got to tell your label, you know, you've got to, that's the decision you've made. So there's all sorts of steps, moments for you to reflect on whether you want to go ahead and do that. Definitely. How was that? So you're quite right. And also I wouldn't say it was about being smart because I don't think that was, as you say, it's kind of risky. But I think what it did do from the moment I started to settle on it was give permission.

27:58I felt like a lot of my worry. Because I think what was quite extraordinary about last year, I was already planning on making a disco pop album for the first time in a decade. Then I have the resurgence of murder, which is causing me, I mean, look, my relationship with murder is sorted. But I hadn't thought about its inception for ages. I hadn't thought about the day we made the video or when I went into the studio. So I was actively thinking about the beginning of my career because it so, so happened that song was right at the beginning. So it caused me to look back at, yeah, 21, 22-year-old me and the good people that are still around me, the things I've moved on from, whether or not I had any idea of what it would be like to be making pop at this stage.

28:38So that's why I was like, I really, the more I made the record, I was like, especially in the wake of a viral hit, which is synonymous with youth culture. and obviously the next everybody's thinking okay how are you going to further follow up murder on the dance floor and i'm like well i'm not murder on dance floor came out in 2001 like i've had those conversations thanks yeah like i've been there that's she's she's doing her thing i'm now gonna i'm now here and this is where i'm at so the more i was making this record and thinking all these thoughts i was like my age has got to be the perspective it's the vantage point because it's so relevant it's informing all my decision making and my songwriting and how I feel it's got to be there and it's the conversation I'm having with my peers so I was like right and one of my girlfriends I write with called Hannah said I was talking to her about it and she was like haha perimenopop and we thought it was hilarious yeah but obviously I was like well I'd never do that but and then I just couldn't think of anything that sorted out better I was like what's another word for a middle-aged woman like how can I make this a bit like let's just slap it on the front and be like deal with it um and it was like oh my word it is perimenopop and then I spoke to my eldest boy because I thought I don't want to embarrass I said how would you feel sunny and he was like go for it I think it's great and I said do you think it's cringy and he said well there's always aspects that are a bit uncomfortable with things at the beginning he said even brat but then it became so much about celebrating what makes you feel a bit awkward and I thought okay that's really smart I love that perspective and then I said to my mum and she went go for it and that's when I started to get excited and then I was like someone else is going to do it first that feeling oh yeah and that's a nice feeling because I was like okay now I know I'm onto

30:23Romesh Ranganathan:something well I I think what if you sort of think about this you know I'm saying this as somebody who knows nothing I should qualify everything I say is from a sort of an ignorant standpoint but But I feel like, you know, music in particular always feels like it's aimed at young people. Right. And so actually when you get to, you know, I'm in my late 40s. But, you know, for people of our age, it doesn't feel like you're being, you are being catered for, but it doesn't feel like stuff is aimed at you. You know, you might like stuff. Most of the music I like is not made for people like me. Do you know what I mean?

31:01Romesh Ranganathan:I'm really into hip-hop, but nobody's going, I hope that guy that's, that really middle-aged dad's going to enjoy this. So for then for you to then talk to say this is perimenopop, I think it's like, I honestly think it's an amazing thing. It's like you're going, this is the age I'm at. You can still, not you can still, like, this is for you. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, it's not just for, this is not you sneaking in and listening to some music that it's a bit embarrassing for you to be listening to. This is like made for you by you, you know? And I think that's really exciting. So think about there's little examples of that where, you know, having gigs that are for people that would rather just get home before, you know, like things, all of that sort of stuff.

31:45Romesh Ranganathan:I think that is, I just think it's a really great thing to do. I really do. I appreciate that very much. And when you said you're coming from not feeling informed, I don't think that's true at all because everything you talked about is exactly that. It's the emotional thing. It's not literally an album about being about to go through a menopause. I mean, God, like, I don't want to write about that. It's about that you can still feel like that version of yourself while all these other things are happening. So that was why it was so important. That's why it was like absolutely right in the middle.

32:15But I think everybody will go through moments where they're approaching their middle age and thinking about all these things and thinking, am I still okay to do this? And, oh, I didn't really plan this. What does it look like to love hip-hop as I approach 50? How does that feel? And I think that's why, yeah, the permission, but also the celebration of all the things you've laid down over the years to get to that point where you know yourself and you know what you like and you enjoy it and you seek it out. I just think that's so healthy and maybe not something that's spoken about as much as I feel.

32:51No, it felt like it cut through.

32:53Romesh Ranganathan:When I saw the announcement, it cut through. It was a cool thing to do. Were the label all right with it? Was everybody all right with it? Yeah, I think there was a slightly awkward moment when we had the first planning meeting and there was talk about, I don't know, what we could do to make it kind of tie in. And it was a bit too on the nose. It was like, oh, we can do fans because, you know, hot flashes. And I'm like, Jesus, no. This is not, do you know what I mean? Like, honestly, though. and I was like no and I really thought look it's a fine line but I thought you know there was even a weird moment where there was talk about trying to come up with the label had an idea to make a slogan calling it anti-ageist pop and I'm like this album's not anti-anything like no let me just talk about what it means to me and we'll have to just be okay with that and if I talk clumsily so be it i've done the work it's my record i've written this like just let me do talk about what i've done and see see if people connect with it or not so i think with the label it was there were some people who really got it and other people were there a bit like perimenopause and certainly you know a well-meaning person i work with uh did message me and say we can use it in the in the promotion but maybe we give a different title and i was like what is that like why be half-hearted?

34:20I've done the cooler, you know, singer-songwriter, the album titles. I've been there. I've done those things. And that was right for them. But now is not the time. And also I felt, I felt kind of bold. I think I'm quite good at being middle-aged. I quite like being a middle-aged woman. I enjoy it more than I thought I would.

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35:13Romesh Ranganathan:At any point did you think maybe this is a mistake? No, it was the sort of thing where I felt more like I was onto something. Is that bad? I just was thinking, well, good, it should provoke a little thing, you know? And I just thought, I've worked on this. I feel good about it. Why would I want to now hide its light under a bushel and try and be like, you know, now's the time to be extra. My last album was quite introverted. This is extrovert. Let's go. See what happens next. I just worry sometimes I've spent so much time talking about my age, like literally what am I going to do next? Somewhere out there, like 70-year-old me is going to be like, okay, now can I talk about my age?

35:49Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, you need to get to the next stage where it's sort of like fragility pop or limited mobility pop or something like that. Oh, I'll be right there. I'm going to need both my knees replaced. Incontinent pop.

36:02I'm wearing out the cartilage with every gig, so I don't worry. Right, really? These things will happen. Yeah. Yeah.

36:08Romesh Ranganathan:I sometimes, I've started to, this is really old chat now, but sometimes I've like, I'll do like, when I'm doing it on tour, I'll do an act out or something. And I'll, you know, like of a routine. And then I finish and I think, I think I might need a break. Just sort of breathing heavily into the mic. You said you've got your husband and your brother in your band. Yes. What is that like working with family? I love it. I think it makes all the difference, actually. I mean, imagine what, you know, all the gigs and the traveling and the touring would look like if I didn't have like Richard with me and have my brother with me as well it's just lovely I really I know it's very wholesome but I do really like it does it make you feel like you're not sort of away yeah but it also means that we can find little you can kind of make the part of the day about something other and I think you know you could maybe go for a nice lunch somewhere or find a good coffee place or go for a walk somewhere pretty and it's like for a little moment you can just have a pause out of that and i think also for the kids it means that everything we do is kind of they've got a vision of it in their head with their mum and dad doing it together and i think i think that's quite nice too hopefully yeah does it does it um it doesn't get stressful being with family you know what i can see why you'd say that but i think we richard and i met in that dynamic so he was the bass player in my band so that's how we how we got to know one another and also the roles we have are really they are codependent insofar as you know with making the music but we're actually also doing our own thing so yeah i wouldn't i wouldn't have any thing to say to him about how he plays bass and so it's like no i get you kind of do our you're not like james brown sort of finding him if he gets a note wrong oh no can you imagine it's so awkward um no so i think from my point of view it probably has allowed me to really um enjoy a lot of what i do much much more and i you know i think i'd be quite lonely if i didn't have people to play with when i'm away i think i I don't think I enjoy it as much.

38:00I like doing things with people. And even when I've been doing, I don't know, if I've got like a gig coming up or something, if I've got the chance to take a girlfriend or take one of the kids with me, I've done that as well. Because I think you've got to find the fun. Like that is literally what it's, that is the bit, isn't it? There's not a bit where you like complete and then, okay, now we can relax. Like the doing is the living.

38:19Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I mean, I do think that that, I think that is part of the thing about, you know, we've talked about getting older, but I feel like when you're younger, I feel like you're thinking about getting to this, yeah whatever this milestone is in your career you're like when i get to there yeah it'll feel great yeah and i've just got to get to here and it'll feel amazing jacob's ladder yeah and then what happens is you get there and you go oh um i've totally changed what i want now and yeah this isn't this isn't done everything i thought there's another level above you and you're like oh now i need to do that and i think yeah and also i think for me involving my friends and family helps you remember that what do a lot of what i do is really really amazing so you know i remember one time taking one of my kids he must have been seven or eight and I had a gig abroad and it was a bit of an arduous travel you know two nights back but because I had him with me we walked into this hotel and he's like look at the chandelier you know like he saw it all with wonder and I was like well okay now we can now we can enjoy ourselves a bit more so I think for me it's kept kept me remembering that a lot of what I do is pretty pretty jammy really yeah yeah it's you do have to sort of enjoy the um the journey don't you I can't believe I said those words that loud yeah And we weren't even laughing about it.

39:29I know. It was true. I didn't even say it ironically. I do think that. It is true.

39:34Romesh Ranganathan:I do think it's like the difference, for example, in this instance. There's a difference between me just going, I'm just going to enjoy a chat with Sophie, or going, I hope we figure out what thing's going to go massive, and I hope this leads to something. You know, it's that thing of when you're younger, you are just thinking like that. Do you know what I mean? And then so you don't enjoy the thing in the moment. Exactly. And that means also that if you can have, if the kernel of it makes you feel good, then whatever happens with it, you can actually really live with as well. Yes, yeah. And I think actually, again, like for me, what happened with murder was such a good example of that because firstly, even if nothing had happened with the song, just the fact it was in the movie made me happy.

40:09And also when I made the video or I did all the things back then, I was really happy. So now I've got, it comes back at me and I'm like, yeah, great. I still like that stuff.

40:19Romesh Ranganathan:But if we could just talk about murder one more second. But like when murder got big on Saltburn and it propelled you to have the year that we've talked about. It was getting chopped up loads onto TikTok and socials and stuff like that. And I imagine there might have been some pressure on you for Perry Menopop to have 12 versions of Murder on it or whatever. And also the other thing is a lot of artists talk about the fact that there's a slight pressure to make songs that you can take a bit out of to go on a TikTok dance or something like that. Yeah, but you've got really no control on that, have you?

40:56I mean, look at what's really happening on the amount of songs that are in that, that's like top, what, half a percent, you know? I think it's really greedy to just be like, oh, that felt amazing. Can I have that again? Like, no, you've got to record a special one-off. I think hoping for those things to happen is actually not a very healthy thing to even really allow yourself to just do what you enjoy. the rest will follow do you know um acorn you know acorn remember acorn acorn yeah let me out that

41:31Romesh Ranganathan:guy okay yeah yeah he um got really excited by ringtones oh right and so he was he's noticed that loads of people were had songs as their ringtones so he's he actually said they actively started making songs that would be good as ringtones that was like his motivation to make stuff but then people are always trying to crack the code yeah there's always people i mean amount of people i've worked with over the years where they're trying to crack the songwriting code like this is the equation for a pop record that will work and sometimes there's a little sweet spot where that does kind of work but it always stops working yeah and it's so serious like why do you want to be serious about something that's supposed to make you feel good and also like piecing things together and like if this has that if the bridge goes here and this is like this absolutely i've Literally, I had an experience with some very focused, competitive songwriters very early on.

42:24And after I worked with them, they said, let's do another song. And I said, I cannot work the way you work. I wish you all the best. But for me, this should be something where I feel great after a session. And I can't stand sitting around with serious faces working out of what will work for radio. Like literally there's nothing less creative than trying to second guess what other people want. And it always leads to folly. You always make something. you don't actually really like that much because you second guess what other people will want from you. How arrogant is that? It's so rude. Like, absolutely sod off.

42:58Romesh Ranganathan:Have you read Rick Rubin's book about creativity? I haven't actually, but I've heard him being interviewed. Yeah, so that book's amazing. It's sort of what you're talking about. In fact, he actually says the audience should be nowhere near your thoughts when you're creating something. It's like the audience come last. I think that's true. And he's sort of saying that when, he goes, whenever you see a creative or an artist or somebody and they're thinking about what the audience want, they often make their worst work. Agreed. And he said, when you, he goes, actually, what it is, it's like it's making something that you just really want to make.

43:31It's so cynical.

43:32Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, and you just please yourself. Be selfish. Yeah. Be totally selfish. And then he said, and what inevitably happens then is that thing is what the audience actually want. And they respond to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's coming from a point of like, it's got a pure heart. Yeah. I do think that's all true. I really do. That's why I host The Weakest Link.

43:56Romesh Ranganathan:I just thought, fuck there, man. There is no heart purer than that. I'm going to do something edgy and just, you know. Can we talk about Strictly? Okay. What was your Strictly? How would you describe your Strictly experience? Because I don't think I've ever been offered it, actually. I don't think. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I could pull some strings. No, no, no. I'm not going to. If you see me on Strictly, something's gone wrong tax-wise. But what was your, like, how did you find that whole thing? Overall, I learnt loads and I met some lovely people. It was quite, I mean, I feel a bit weird talking about it in a way because it was like, it was over 10 years ago now.

44:31So I think my Strictly login card is starting to not really work as well. But I think overall there was a lot of positives, but it was also quite an intense experience. And there's kind of nothing else I've ever done before or will do since that's equal to what Strictly was about for me.

44:51Romesh Ranganathan:Well, the reason I ask is because it's talked a lot about the... It's come up recently, hasn't it, the intensity of the whole thing? Yeah, and I think, look, you know, you're learning something new and I haven't learnt anything new as an adult for ages when I did that. And I did love the indulgence of that, like every day, just absorbing a new dance. like that that was really wonderful and um as i said there were lots of positives but it's just something that i kind of was a little bit i went into it not really knowing much about it yeah and so i was sort of learning as i went and the same for richard i'd never actually seen strictly when i did it so yeah i think um there were aspects of it that were a bit more challenging yeah yeah but i think richard was really good about speaking about that as well because we we very much like went into it with us both agreeing like okay let's do this yeah and then it was quite a lot for for us in the end um in terms of like what the whole dynamics of it yeah i think uh i think aspect because and again i do think the culture of it has changed i know people that still work on the show and they say it's got they've really had to look at what was happening but at the time it was quite hard to involve anyone outside of strictly into what was happening with me right so um i think yeah for richard he just found that quite stressful yeah and it went on for a long time and then people would constantly talk about the strictly curse which we didn't even know about the beginning and then it'd be like oh wow this is really a lot of questions about this which is like a crazy if you think about that is crazy but then in my year there were a few couples that had broken up by the end of the series so it was just quite a lot going on but I think they have got a lot better.

46:29I do really know that for that.

46:29Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, listen, I don't know if there's a strictly curse or not, but Lisa keeps telling me to do it. I don't know what her motivations are. We're going to learn how to foxtrot. Is that a PLT? Yeah, absolutely. We'll do a little Paso Doble. Right, Sophie, we're going to play a game called Misquoted now.

46:49Romesh Ranganathan:It's Misquoted. It is a series of quotes. Some of them you did say and some of them you didn't. I said so many stupid things. so it's just a little invitation to revisit some stuff you might have said we might not have done here's your first one is this true or false? well rather did you say this or not? I think I'm in my sodder era really what's the point of tiptoeing around? oh I definitely said that, I said that quite recently you did Guardian 2025 yeah it's literally this year it's kind of self explanatory isn't it we've kind of covered a lot Yeah. Having a famous mum was a high value currency when I was little.

47:29Romesh Ranganathan:I'd sell blue Peter badges in the playground, 50p for a badge. And if you had one pound, you'd get a signed photograph too. Sadly, this is true. Yes. Guardian 2021. Giving the Guardian a lot of exclusives, by the way. Yeah. There's a few kids, now adults, that still owe me that money. Really? I didn't collect. What child brings 50p to a playground? They never had any cash. No, that's true. I got a blue Peter badge recently. Did you? Yeah, because I went on blue Peter. Is it the white with the blue ship on top? Oh, sweet. Does it get you anything now? Yes, you can still get access to some things, I believe.

48:00Why am I asking you this?

48:00Romesh Ranganathan:I'm so sorry. Well, I am like a spokesperson for Blue Peter. Rom, it's weird that you're asking about Strictly. It happened 10 years ago, but please do ask me about the ins and outs of the Blue Peter badge. That feels much more relevant. From the 1980s. It's okay. Okay, here's the next one. During lockdown, I did a kitchen disco every week. It was great, but my neighbours now have a trauma response when they hear ABBA. I mean, they probably do, but no thanks to the kitchen disc. That's probably just a not eternal thing. Yeah, no. I didn't say it. Yeah, no, that was... No one should feel traumatic with ABBA.

48:31Romesh Ranganathan:No, that is false. We made that up. Yeah. But the... Because in lockdown, there's a lot of... During lockdown, a lot of stuff, a lot of people are creating stuff because they're trying to find an avenue. Yes. I, for example, to tell you what I contributed, is I decided to do a Facebook Live every other day. Did you? And just talk about my day. That's nice. And then after lockdown finished and I returned to sanity, I asked my agent to apply a scorched earth policy to everything I'd posted during that time. Really? It was just like fucking me going, so guys just checking in. I hope lockdown's treating you all right.

49:06Romesh Ranganathan:What about I had some Cheerios for breakfast and yeah, going to play a bit of Fortnite. Why are you saying this out loud? It's like I've gone insane. No, but the need to reach out and connect was so overwhelming and also to do it in real time. Yeah. I do actually. But then I think of some people, Sophie, that are sitting there going, well, the one good thing about lockdown is they're not making as much telly and I'm not going to have to see Romesh as much. And then every day you're getting fucking updates. It's not even hidden behind a format. It's more prolific than ever. It's more shit than he ever has.

49:39Romesh Ranganathan:Why is he asking quiz questions on Facebook? That sounds fun. Yeah. But anyway, the point is, is what you did was like get a whole group, you know, it was. It was also, it was a very similar vibe of just needing an outlet, like that catharsis of just like, ah, I'm stressed, pressure cooker. And the discos did give us a focus, but it was a crazy time. And I didn't, I did think that when we did the first one, that people were going to be really annoyed with me. I thought I'd read the room really wrong, actually. Yeah, because a lot of the other things other musicians were doing were quite earnest and heartfelt and sad.

50:16I didn't want to feel sad. the news was so heavy my thoughts were already pretty overwhelming i think so i wanted a release yeah somewhere else and yeah music is such a good tonic so i would listen to something that i loved you know years ago because it'd be like okay i'm in the club you know wherever i am it was healthy

50:36Romesh Ranganathan:it helped me yeah no it was amazing uh much better than a series of daily updates i think that sounds good i even know i would do that kind of thing sometimes too though i'll never know it's all i wouldn't have watched it if it was happening there yeah log on to an app to watch it uh okay here's your next one um i think a lot of my kids generation don't care what age you are they just want to have good music but also there's so much fun to be found in this chapter of my life and i love the fact that the years have piled up yes that's me i did say that yeah do you know where you said it? Was it The Guardian?

51:09No, it wasn't.

51:11Romesh Ranganathan:It was Good Morning Britain, but then it was then reported in the Evening Standard. You know how the Evening Standard like to take things and pretend it's journalism?

51:21Romesh Ranganathan:Congrats, journo, for watching the television. So good, so good, so good. New summer arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60 % off brands like Rag & Bone, Levi's, Adidas, and free people. Join the Nordiclub to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, buy online and pick up at your favourite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack.

51:53Romesh Ranganathan:I... No, it's good. Okay, here's your last one. Okay. You've done very well, by the way. Thanks. If you're not having fun writing a song, put your pen down and just get AI to do it. I haven't said it, but it's absolutely what I think. Yeah. What's your attitude towards AI? Just quickly. I mean, I might be really chilled about it, but I just don't feel very much about it. I don't really think about it. I think human flaw is quite hard to reproduce. Yes. And I think that's actually the thing that often you seek out. Yeah. So I think it might serve a purpose for things that don't... There's always been space for music that just is not really like soulful.

52:38Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. Fine. But I think when it comes to people sharing a human experience, I think I feel like that's safe. Let's see. Okay. Yeah, me too. They can't do podcasts, can they? Yeah. Okay. Now, we're talking about Parents' Evening. Yeah. You had your mum on Parents' Evening. Yes. What was that like having a famous mum? And you having a famous mum, does that make you reflect on your kids' experience a bit more differently I mean, having gone through it yourself? I suppose I didn't really think about it too literally, but sometimes it does occur to me that I have, there are lots of things I've mimicked.

53:15Yeah. There's parallels. But I suppose when I was little, I mean, my relationship with my mum is very good and what she did for a living was never really like the main thing. It's not a defining aspect of our relationship in any way. But I definitely think that, yeah, I'd be really silly to think that having my mum be in the public eye while I was growing up wasn't something that informed part of how I saw the world because it just absolutely did. So, yeah, that was between when I was about four and eight. So, you know, quite a crucial point. But yeah, I think my memories of it now, looking back, I sort of think that I saw a lot of other things that I didn't realise, like her work ethic or her doing trips or her pragmatism when it came to doing her work, but also being a present mum for me.

54:03And I hope I've taken on the best aspects of that because I think that's helped give me permission to do what I do as well.

54:09Romesh Ranganathan:Did you love having a famous mum that was making, you know, children's TV? Was that? Mixed, if I'm honest. I think there was a bit when I was little and I thought it was really exciting and such a novelty and, you know, that I would be able to make friends in a playground, like, really quickly because I would literally be like, my name's Sophie and my mum's on Blue Peter. Because it would really work. Yeah, of course, man, yeah. Awesome, great, let's go on the slide together. So I would make friends quickly, but then I also experienced a bit of, you know, some kids really hating it. So in my actual primary school, there was an against Sophie club and all this sort of thing.

54:46My God, are you serious? My mum jokes she still gets the newsletter. That's horrible. As far as I'm aware, they've disbanded, but I don't know. It might be bigger and stronger than ever.

54:57Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, they must have been absolutely devastated when salt burn came out. I can imagine. But yeah, they put stones in a tree and tried to shake it when it passed. Oh my God, are you serious? Speaking a language that they thought I couldn't understand. I just found all that was all primary. And then by the time, you know, kids in childhood, by the time we moved area and I started secondary, that was like old news. And when I went to school with my secondary, all new people. So it didn't really play much of a part in my teenage years in that way because it was from, you know, you're not like reminiscing, are you, when you're 14?

55:31No. Can I talk about when I was six for a minute? It just doesn't come up.

55:35Romesh Ranganathan:And then how do your kids, do they like what you do? And how much cringe is there involved? not that there should be but my kids cringe at me that's why I'm asking oh god yeah and that's to be honest quite fun I don't mind embarrassing them it's terrible to admit but I mean I don't really ask them much about what I do and as I said before I think before I start recording my six year old literally yesterday was like well you don't work so I don't I literally don't know how much he's even paying attention to me to be honest but I hope I hope as they get older I've I've spoken about it in a way that's positive and I think some of that actually has come up through my podcast because I speak to other working women who happen to be mums because I'm fascinated to hear how people have calibrated these you know these different things that are part of their life and how they navigate guilt because I definitely think that's been part of it but I just hope they're not really thinking about me in that way too much I hope they their main thought when they think of me is just as their mum yeah I think I sort of feel like um it's one of the things that's really cool about having a family is that you know i feel like what i do outside of my house is of such little yeah importance to my my wife and children to least from the kids and so like it's like a bubble you know it's it's they just don't care they don't care if like how your show's gone or i mean they'll ask me because that's yeah how humans interact but they're not that that's the least interesting thing about me to them do you know i mean so it's a it's a nice thing i'm exactly the same and i love that as well.

57:10As soon as I get in through the front door, it's like, right, what's going on with you guys? What needs sorting? You know, get new shoes, got to take you for a night. It's all the regular stuff.

57:22Romesh Ranganathan:Although sometimes, Sophie, when they're being particularly disrespectful, I will say to them, I'm a fucking legend out there. Do you know how many people bought tickets to my tour? Do you know how many people think I'm an absolute don?

57:37I think if my kids ever think someone likes well I think that you're really amused by it really and bemused is probably more the word yeah they're like that person quite likes that song like like oh okay if you must I think murder on dance right like literally my teen then teenage son like I had to be to basically be like this will pass yeah imagine how mortifying is of your mum's music all over your tiktok like absolutely shove off with that I think that was just yeah I just had to reassure him it wasn't

58:07Romesh Ranganathan:going to last forever yeah no i get that um now sophia it's been amazing to have you on the team um like to have like an exclusive or something that we can really clip up and go via we're all about feeding the algorithm it's not about real chat on this so a long time ago in the i think it must have been like early to mid 90s my dad who is a tv producer and director was doing some work with Prince Edward's production company. And I really meant to remember what they were called. I think it begins with an A. Okay. And so my dad would spend quite a lot of time at the offices where Prince Edward had his office.

58:47Romesh Ranganathan:Right. And one time I went to visit and I noticed a copy of Grease on DVD in the office. Yeah. And I took it. So I have that copy of Grease. You stole Grace from Prince Edward. Essentially, yeah. I have seen him subsequently. Can you not be hanged for that? Well, if it's possible, he's being nice about it because he's patron of the National Youth Theatre and I too work with them. Right. So we've been at events together and he might be just giving me like false sense of security. Yeah. So far I seem to be okay. But I do feel a bit bad. But I think at the time, and by the way, my dad had no part of this.

59:30I did this on my own.

59:31Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, okay. Well done for distancing. That's really sweet. Yeah, I think I was about 14, 15. And I just, I think at the time I just found it kind of amusing. Yeah. So. Would you return it to him? That would imply I know it's still not where it is. It's probably in my attic. I'm just saying after this goes out. You're right. I could just return it. You might get some sort of decree. No, you're right. Okay, you're right. This could be the moment. And they'll send like one of their homing swans. Oh no. To come and collect it. And you just have to type this. I'll be in the tower.

1:00:01Romesh Ranganathan:Sophie Ellis-Bexter you have been a fantastic guest you've been very honest, very open, very funny too honest I'm literally going to go to the tower after this it's so good to be having your last ever public chat with you I'm risking prison for you Sophie Ellis-Bexter everybody if you've enjoyed this episode of the Romesh Ranganathan show make sure you follow wherever you get your podcasts Apple, Spotify, YouTube, all the big ones. And you can enjoy more great content like this. And in fact, I'll go further to say, even if you didn't enjoy this episode, just follow anyway for shits and giggles.

1:00:38Romesh Ranganathan:And on the Thursday episode, we're going to be taking questions from viewers and listeners. Oh. So that's exciting, isn't it? It's interesting. Yeah. And if you've got an interesting story or a question for my mum and I, or even like a family dilemma you'd like us to help you with, please do get in touch via our email address, podcast at rangaby.com. or you can voice note or text on this number. 07731 623355. I'm Ramesh Ranganathan and this has been the Ramesh Ranganathan Show. What a narcissist. See you next time. Oh, shut up, Ramesh. Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up.

1:01:22Romesh Ranganathan:Spring's calling. Ross, work your magic.

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