Stephen Graham on Acting, Adolescence & Al Pacino

22:27Romesh Ranganathan:So it really was the incidence. You weren't thinking about the manosphere right at the beginning? No, I was thinking, I just wanted to look at the fact that why would a young lad stab a young girl? What would that be? And then I had kind of, I remembered when we were kids in school, I remember there was a situation where a lad said something to a girl and it was innocuous. And then at the end of school, her brother battered this kid for something really simple, do you know what I mean? But it was the way she took umbrage to it. And I just thought about the possibilities of her saying something to him or doing something to him or rejecting him in a certain way.

23:01and then his ego and his identity being so kind of in a place where he felt he had no other option but to attack it. But I didn't know what that was, but we just knew that was going to be the concept of the story. And then obviously, you know, Jack looked into all of that side of it and wrote that beautiful third episode with just the two of them, Owen and Erin.

23:25Romesh Ranganathan:Erin, obviously, I used to be Erin's head of year. I know, yeah, that's my dad, isn't it? she was so Lisa my wife that school is where I met Lisa so I used to go I used to be head of sixth form and then I'd go to watch the drama performances and Erin was like you could just tell Erin was going to be she's a talent you know like just some people have just got it haven't they yeah absolutely and she just as soon you just go and watch it she was just incredible even then man it's amazing you can see it you can spark talent yeah You can really see it, do you know what I mean? You can, and that kind of thing, you can't teach.

24:03You can teach technique, and you can teach how to dissect a script and how to look through it and how to find the wants and the means and the motivations for your character. But talent, I don't think you can teach talent at all. No, you can get to there, can't you?

24:17Romesh Ranganathan:And then there's something else that you're just born with or whatever. Yeah, and we just never knew it was going to be what it was. I remember Jack told you, you know, with the success of it, So even when we were over there in America and going to all these wonderful awards ceremonies and that, you know, I was like, well, let's get a bus. Let's get a bus. Because I wanted us all to be together. Do you know what I mean? Because you never get to share those experiences. They're kind of, you know, you're picked up by a car and it's all lovely, don't get me wrong. It's a strange environment and a weird world, but I just wanted us to share it together.

24:49And there was something lovely about us all being in that same bus and travelling together. And thankfully, look, you know, it was one of those nights and we all kind of came away with a trophy. But it's not about that. It was about the fact that we made something with honesty and with integrity and with passion and with love. And it was colloquial. It was a simple British story, but yet it resonated.

25:12Romesh Ranganathan:It's an interesting thing because, like, you know, you talk about you didn't know how big it was going to be. And it's a really organic origin where you just thought, I want to talk about this. I want to do something about this. and then not only did it change the landscape of television in terms of like, you know, it had such an impact, it also changed national discourse. Do you know what I mean? And obviously you couldn't have predicted that was going to be the case. Not at all. How did it feel to create a piece of art that has done that? You know, because the Manosphere in particular is something that we, you know, I do think adolescence was like, it was kind of it accelerated and exacerbated that conversation about all of that didn't it how did it feel to be watching that and seeing that you can't have obviously you couldn't have imagined that that's a legacy thing I mean not that you needed that for your legacy but it's pretty amazing you've made an indelible mark right yeah and thank you very much for saying that but you don't see it like that you know you know yourself you do the work and then it's open for everyone's interpretation of what they wish to take from it yeah So we never had any idea it was going to be like that.

26:21But for me, if I'm completely honest, you know, pushing the trolley in Tesco's or, you know, the supermarkets out there, but that's the closest one to our house. When we go there, you know, and sometimes Anna goes, she'll go, right, I'm going to Tesco's. I'll go, I'll come with you. And she'll go, no, I want to get in and out. And I'm like, oh, all right then. But, you know, it's being approached by people, by men and women, and, you know, proper, real, average, everyday people, normal people like myself, like who we are, and just saying thank you for that piece because what it's done is it's made a lot of parents kind of try and understand their kids a lot more.

27:01And, you know, at the very beginning when we were thinking about it and talking about it, Hannah said a wonderful thing and I'll never forget. She said our objective and our aim for this is to try and make parents open the doors, open the bedroom doors and see what's going on and just begin that line of communication and that was kind of the thing that it was that's that's all we that was that was all we could have expected yeah do you know what i mean that was all we could have expected and that was all we ever wanted so it's predominantly for me it's more when people you know when people say thank you because they've began that conversation so for me that's that that's the most important thing for me um

27:40Romesh Ranganathan:The one shot stuff feels like the most stressful way of doing anything. Would you want to do more of it? Because it just seems so, I can't even begin to imagine what it's like to do something like that. It's the best thing ever. It's the most exhilarating. Look, you've done plays, you've done stage. Yeah. So you know what. Yeah, but yeah, I have. Yeah. Yeah, no, you have. And you were great, you know what I mean? So you know what it's like. You know that kind of performance element or something. but if you take that concept and what this did which was beautiful which was married both of those mediums so you have the naturalism and the authenticity and truth of television and film but then you're also in a performance state so and again you know I'm not wanting to sound wanky in any way shape or form but it was kind of the most zen I've ever been because you're a collective every single one of you is vital to what's going on and when to me personally it's not about acting it's about being so when you're in that presence and when you're in that space and everyone's in it together the energy is unbelievable do you know what i mean you tune in and you lock in and you just you're in it because it's all about listening to each other isn't it it's all about being present in that moment and so you just jump on and the whole thing just moves on its own there's loads of preparation involved matt at the opu is phenomenal and phil our wonderful director you know they plan it meticulously along with our first ad sarah who was phenomenal she's a general she was she's the best first ad in the business but they planned it meticulously to the extent where they were in their little car driving from the house to the police station going right how long did that take then do you know what i mean they were doing that they were doing that like four weeks before we got in the car yeah so you you work on it meticulously so it's like a fine tuned machine and then as soon as we're all ready and we go you say action and it just flows but you're in the moment completely there's not the excitement and the energy is unbelievable and you have to really listen and you have to be present because anything can happen like in real life if something goes wrong we'll go with it right right right do you know what I mean and it came from that oiling point so if someone drops a plate then you know people drop plates in restaurants so just carry on just see what happens with it so to me it's the most exhilarating I've ever been performing yeah because obviously when you watch it when you watch something like that you are you just go holy shit that looks so hard to do but you're saying over and above that it adds it's adding something to your performance absolutely yeah because look as well and in many respects you know I've been number 72 on a call sheet and you walk in and you're filming for a day and you're like kind of oh hello and you know some people are lovely and some people you're like oh alright so the experience can be varied whereas on that production particularly and on Boiling Point even if you were number 72 on the call sheet you were with us for three weeks because you were involved in the whole rehearsal process so you were integral to it do you know what I mean and then when the thing's moving along and we're coming to you now your game's raised you're ready so and that's what it does we were a collective do you know it was like a big and I know people say this but we were a big family do you know what I mean and we all took care of each other because you all want what's best for the production you all want to do the best you possibly can it's about passing the ball to each other do you know what I mean so when it's coming for your moment and you know it's coming and we're round the corner and you've got someone but the adrenaline must be through the roof well that's what I mean so it's just you're harnessing this energy as you're going through the whole production and it's like it's like a well-oiled machine but it has to look like it's happened for the first time you have to be so present and so in the moment I loved Boiling Point I thought it was awesome I thought it was an incredibly stressful watch yeah and that's it really puts you in that you know you are in it but do you have to know your character so much better because you you might be reacting to something so you don't know what you actually might have to react to if something does go wrong But not better because you did, you know, look, for me, I've been very blessed with the people I've worked with.

32:08But for me, like 10 years of drama school was all done in doing one film with Shane Meadows. Just because of the way he helps you to construct a person, a human being that, you know, inside out and back to front. And look, there's lots of different stuff. And, you know, Stanislavski and there's lots of different methods and techniques. Uta Hagen and things like that, where you do study a character and you get to know the character. But with Shane, the way Shane goes about it, you get to breathe it and you know it inside out and back to front. You know what his favourite colour is, you know what his favourite socks are, you know what undies he wears, you know his favourite music.

32:49You go into it in a depth and in a level that is, then allows you to be open and play any kind of, excuse me, situational possibility.

32:58Romesh Ranganathan:So the idea is you get, you know the character so well that you could literally go to a part, like a real life part and you would be that guy. You know exactly how that person's responding in every situation. Yeah, one of the maddest experiences I've ever had in my life. And I don't think I've ever, one of the strangest experiences I've ever had was when we all came back to meet to do, this is England 90. he was telling me that you know look you've been homeless you've been on the street for a bit and you're drunk so I was like okay alright yeah okay I get there and then everyone was getting to do these little things these little improvisations and then he sends us off and then we kind of put a little bit of a beard on me and he put me in these clothes and he went and he gave me like I think he gave me£1.20 or something like that and went right go into Sheffield and I was like what and he went go into Sheffield so I ended up going into Sheffield fucking like big fuzzy hair and that and a coat but you're in character right and I'm in Sheffield and I'm walking about the streets and all that and everything and I'm like asking for money and stuff like that and no one recognised me at all I mean you know it was one of those things well they might have done and they thought bloody hell what's happened to Stephen well they might have done but what I'm saying is and this is the weirdness of it somehow I ended up with a load of alcoholics and a load of drunks at the back of a shop that were offering me a place to stay for the night in the corner around the back and they'd give me a cup of tea and they were asking me questions and so I'm talking to these real people and I'm having to think about the actual truth of the character.

34:36I'm saying I've got Arnich a bit ago and I've been low and I've got a place to stay and they took me in. That's amazing. But I felt terrible because I'm thinking, fucking hell, shit. But I'm also, I felt like some, FBI agent undercover. I'm like, shit, I'm going deep here. I'm going deep. I've got to try and find a way to get out of this in a minute. Steve's been researching his character for six months now. We don't know where he is. But it was also getting scary because there was a little fight kicking off between two of them. And I'm sitting here with me cup of tea like being quite sheepish, thinking, fucking hell.

35:11You would have never known that this round-the-corner place existed where there was all these people. Do you know what I mean?

35:17Romesh Ranganathan:And also, I imagine, you don't know how people look at homeless people, you know, until you've experienced that. And that was the other thing, Romish, that was the other thing when I was walking through and I, and I know no one recognized me because of the great beard, the other and everything and the way I looked when I was walking through, I've never felt that, that invisible ever. Do you know what I mean? And people were looking down on you. There was a couple that would smile at you when you'd put, when you'd show, you'd raise your head and you'd dare to make eye contact there was a few people that looked at you with sympathy do you know what I mean but the majority were just like didn't want nothing to do with you yeah I just imagine it's just like blinkers on and I had like rips in my kecks and that and I had half a shoe hanging off and you know dirty feet so I looked the part that's incredible it was unbelievable it was the best experience I've ever had with that kind of research and looking into something and finding a character this episode is brought to you by surf shark an all-in-one security suite that helps you surf the internet safely 24 7 wherever you are in the world we're all using our devices a lot every day whether it's to listen to music take photos and let's face it watch the odd ai cat video but we're also using them more and more for life's big stuff from online banking and shopping to work documents and for all our personal accounts you deserve to do all of that safe in the knowledge your data is protected.

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39:25Romesh Ranganathan:thiev and graham letters to our sons can you just talk to me a little bit about the the origin of this like how this all came about it came about my wonderful friend Judy who I've known for like 33 years and she works for a publishing company now an agency and Ollie had this idea for her son who also you know co-created it she had this wonderful idea for her son when he was turning 13 when you have your bar mitzvah I think isn't he so she got a few men in his life to write him a letter just like some advice and things like that and I think Jude's sister knows it. So it's kind of, the way it comes together is then Jude ended up at eyes going, look, this is really interesting.

40:09Do you think there's anything we can do with it? And I went, well, the way it would work is if we got dads to write letters to the sons. I think that's a possibility for it. So that's kind of the embryo of the idea. That's where it came from.

40:25Romesh Ranganathan:And so it's just, it's lots of fathers writing to their sons. Yeah. And you've got some, you know, well-known people, and then you've just got members of the public, right? Yeah, we put it out there, and, you know, we had a great team behind the whole push. They went to community centres, they went to football grounds, they went to libraries, and we reached out, and we had everyone from, you know, from bin men to barristers send letters in. And it was more of a kind of, I don't know about you, but you know for me personally I mean I'm a soppy so I I am I cry at the drop of a hat you know what I mean I'm just yeah I don't know but I tell my kids I love them all the time do you know what I mean and I'm extremely tactile I adore my children I do my world I do my world everything I do I do for them do you know what I mean and my wife but I adore my children absolutely and I tell them that all the time and you know we've got a wonderful relationship but I know some men find it difficult some of my mates find it difficult to communicate with their sons so we just thought it would be something to kind of a love letter to your son and taking that time taking that time to sit down and write the letter and think of your son or your sons it's a very meditative kind of thing that happens you did it yeah you experienced it yeah so I think my experience of submitting a letter for this and I was I was very grateful to be asked but it's that thing of like I'm similar to you in terms of I tell my boys I love them all the time I would say to a point where they're like dad we get it yeah do you know what I mean yeah you support and love us and whatever we do you'll be behind us we get it do you know what I mean yeah whatever it made me engage with what did I actually want for my boy you know like what do I actually what advice do I actually want to give them because like I remember when I was growing up, my mum and dad, they came over from Sri Lanka.

42:33Romesh Ranganathan:They want me to do really, really well. And so they want me to get a great job. They want me to be secure and all of this. And we butted heads about that because I wanted to do other things and that was a thing. And so I thought to myself, well, I want my boys to choose to do something they love. But then equally, I don't want that to be the be all and end all. So you start thinking about, what do I want for the boys? And the truth is I just want them to be content in their lives. Do you know what I mean? Happy. Happy. And so then you go, well, what do I say to them that I think is my help in doing that?

43:06Romesh Ranganathan:And it made me think about that in a way that weirdly I hadn't sat. I probably had all of those elements of those thoughts at some point. Do you know what I mean? I'd had those conversations with them. But to put it all together and go, this is the, I am putting this all together in one thing to my boys. What do I want to say? and it was an amazing experience putting it together. It is a beautiful experience, isn't it? Yeah, it's incredible. I think when you look through these letters, some of them are funny, some of them are emotional and all of them feel very, very honest. And as a dad, I don't even know if you need to be a dad.

43:48Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, I know that Georgie read some of it and it made you emotional. Lisa's read some of them. They're beautiful. It's a wonderful thing. I don't think you need to be a dad to go to read these letters and you can't help but be moved by what these fathers are imparting to their sons because you can feel, this might sound wanky, you can feel these fathers grappling with what it is they want to say to their kids, right? And that is compelling. Do you know what I mean? And you sort of go, I can feel you sat thinking, what do I want to say to myself? Yeah, how do I put this together? How do I do this, yeah.

44:33Romesh Ranganathan:It's an amazing thing. And it's made, it's actually, you know, it's sort of changed the way I think about, you know, the way I think about expressing things to the boys. Do you know what I mean? Because I want them to be guided. And it's made me think about how I interact. You know, you sort of want to put that across them in every way that you can. Do you know what I mean? And I think writing my letter and then looking through some of the other letters, it really makes you think about, and I don't want to sound too worried, it makes you think about what we're doing as parents. What are you supposed to do for your kids, man?

45:07Romesh Ranganathan:Do you know what I mean? Because you don't want to go, this is the setting stone path that I need you to take. That is so far from what I want to do. But equally, they have to make mistakes. They're going to experience negatives, right? how do I give them enough? How do I give them a toolkit that whatever they come across, they're going to be able to deal with it? Do you know what I mean? It's an unbelievable, it's an unbelievable idea. I don't think you can read it for more than about 10 minutes before you start to get a bit emotional. Yeah, I mean, even sometimes you flick it up on the first page, you're like, oh, God, you know what I mean?

45:42But it's one of those things you can keep coming back to. Yeah. And also the same thing, which is, you know, which is what you were saying. My mate Leon, his lads, I don't know how old he is, his lads are about maybe 24, 25. And look, he won't mind me saying this, do you know what I mean? But him and his mum separated when he was like seven. And Leon's been through a few different relationships trying to find that right person. And he sat down, and I think it's that art and it's that act of sitting down with some paper, with a pen, because it's ancient. It's ancient, and we don't do it often, do you know what I mean?

46:18you did it in school because you had to do it but to sit down with that pen and actually think like what you said about his boy and about what he means to him and about the things he wishes to express to him he said it broke him and he realised throughout that process that no matter what's been happening in his life his son has been that one constant his rock do you know what I mean so it's that it's that kind of sitting down taking the time and just writing And then if people read it, which hopefully they do, and if it inspires one person to write their own letter to their son, then again, that's the objective complete, isn't it?

46:59Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it was a gift to me to write the letter. I showed it to Lisa. Lisa started crying. And then she said, you've got to show this to the boys. So I sent it to the boys. And I said, I sent it on the family WhatsApp. And I just said, look, I've written this letter. it's me being like, because obviously our love language is ripping the piss out of each other, right? So I said, it's quite earnest. I'm just telling you that straight off the bat. See what you think. And then my oldest son said, I love this so much, Dad. Our middle son was like, thanks so much, Dad. It's a great letter.

47:31Romesh Ranganathan:And then my youngest son just went, great letter, bro.

47:37Romesh Ranganathan:And the thing is, you know what I think about that? Is I think like with those boys, I think your kids, my kids sometimes, you know, they are expressive and they say, love you, love you, love you. Yeah. But they're just getting on with their life. Their job is to not make you feel better as a parent. Exactly. That is not on their list of things to do. They've got so much more important things to do. They've got other shit going on. Do you know what I mean? So you can't expect that from your kids. But I've said it. Do you know what I mean? Now I've said it now, right? And so whatever happens now, they know that's how I feel.

48:09Romesh Ranganathan:And I think that's what's so amazing about this book. And I think that, I think, as a parent or even as a non-parent reading that, it will make you reflect on how you interact with your loved ones regardless. Do you know what I mean? Because it's a really powerful thing, man. It's an amazing thing you've put together. Thank you very much. It's been an honour to be a part of. And the team involved, I think we had over 3 ,500 letters entered. And I think there's 200 and odd in there. But the selection process as well. So, you know, I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank everybody that sent a letter in.

48:44Not every letter that came in could make it, but they all were a part of the process of making it what it is. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

48:52Romesh Ranganathan:No, it's so good, man. It's so good. Thank you. Thank you. We've got a question from my mum now that I don't know what it is. She sent in a voice note. Okay. Hi, Stephen. Hello, love. I'm Shanti, Ramesh's mum. I know you. Congratulations on all your success. I can't believe you are on the podcast. You are acting royalty. I hear you have an amazing wife and you were raised by a very strong woman. What have you learned from all strong women in your life? Love to know. You have a wonderful day. Enjoy the podcast. Take care, Stephen. Bye-bye. Wow, what a question. Yeah, what a question. Feels loaded, that.

49:41Romesh Ranganathan:I'm asking about strong women in your life. I wonder what inspired her to ask that question. Well, dare I say, dare I say. Yeah, to listen. That's what I've learned from the strong women in my life. To listen and to do. To listen and to do to the best of my ability. yeah yeah no you know there was just me and me for the first 10 years and my mum God bless her soul was a wonderful woman and if anything you know she taught me she taught me a lot of things but predominantly that you're never above anyone and you're never below anyone treat everyone equally yeah you know we all have a right to be seen that's kind of the way my mum brought me up and I don't know if that was you know that was that was something that I've kept throughout my life well that feels like if you Anybody that talks about working with you, it sort of is reflected in how you work on, like you are very keen to, my impression is, you know, I've never worked with you directly, but like when people that have worked with you, my impression is that you are making sure that everybody involved from top to bottom feels seen as included in your part.

50:56Romesh Ranganathan:I mean, you talked about it earlier when you were talking about adolescence, part of a team and, you know, it's that you're getting away from this hierarchical idea of making stuff, right? Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that. And, you know, you only get the best out of people when you make them feel like they belong and they're involved, you know what I mean? And I'm not saying it's because I'm a working-class kid or anything like that, but the opportunities aren't really there that much, do you know what I mean, for people like me who speak the way I speak or come from where I come from. So if I've managed to get into this position, I feel very blessed and very privileged to be able to do what I do.

51:31But I've worked my ass off, do you know what I mean? There's been times when, you know, many in our early days, me and Anna were counting money to go and buy fucking beans and bread, do you know what I mean, from across the road. That's just the truth of it. That's the reality of it. That was kind of where we were. So you weren't getting work and you were just struggling? Yeah, there was plenty of time. And, you know, Lachan Hannah kind of put her career on hold completely while I tried to pursue the acting. Right. Because she, you know, she went and did a teaching job. She was a teacher. She taught sixth form, A-level drama and English.

52:09And she did other jobs as well, do you know what I mean, in order to try and keep me going in many ways. And ultimately that was a massive sacrifice. and that's something I'm so grateful for because her ultimate aim and goal when she was younger and she's had opportunities now and hopefully she will have more was to be an actress but she put that on hold for me which is something that I'll always cherish because the faith and the backing that she gave me in them situations but I also feel now that and that's when we set this little production company up it was that kind of the ethos and the philosophy which we try to pursue is the fact that we're trying to create opportunities for working class kids and kids not just kids but anyone who wants to get into the industry trying to create them opportunities for them and give them them chances because you only keep what you have by giving it away do you know what i mean so it's kind of trying to create a platform for that and that's the stories we wish to tell as well do you think it's got better for working class actors it's it's changed look when I was I mean one of my biggest heroes of all time is Gary Oldman right it's it's changed but for me there was Gary Oldman there was Kathy Burke you had him on the other day there was Ray Winston do you know what I mean Ian Hart for me as well there was there was lots of working class because of the stories that were being told do you know what I mean Alan Clarke made some wonderful films absolutely wonderful films so there was lots of those working class stories being told today i think they're less right um and it's gone it's moved in a different way it's not you know the kind of stories look the work that i've always tried to pursue and tried to be involved in and it has been choices that i've made but i've not necessarily i'm not saying that they were overly political but it's kind of stories of social realism and stories that are telling honest accounts of ordinary people in all in extraordinary circumstances and i don't know if that stuff's being made as much anymore um i don't think it is i don't see it as often as what i used to yeah but there's other avenues don't get me wrong there are other avenues but you know you can only play what's out there do you know what i mean so i feel we have an obligation as well to try and tell stories of those people and represent those people honestly and truthfully there's kind of two types

54:39Romesh Ranganathan:of representation in there because there's representation where that thing about them is what the story is about yeah do you know what i mean and then there is a type of representation where that thing about them is just texture for the story you know it's it's just a story and they happen to be working class or it's just a story and they happen to be black you know do Do you know what I mean? That's not the front and center of the thing. Yeah. And that sometimes you feel like there's not enough of that, right? There's not enough of that. That's exactly it. I mean, look, for example, you take Ashley, who I feel is a wonderful actor and he's a phenomenal actor.

55:14And Ashley's, a lot of Ashley's work were, you know, on Top Boy. He was phenomenal. He was brilliant. The whole cast were. Yeah. And okay. And I see those stories that need to be told and them stories are great to be told. But not every story is about that, which is what you're saying. That's why it was important to show Ashley as a police officer. And I think no one expected him to be in that role. No one expected him to play it the way he did. Do you know what I mean? But you've met Ashley a few times, haven't you? And I've known Ashley for over 20 years. He's a wonderful man. He's a family man.

55:47Do you know what I mean? But we'd never see those qualities that he has. So I really wanted to go, have a look what else he can do. I felt like that was a necessity for me do you know what I mean

55:59Romesh Ranganathan:can we talk a bit about Nocturne this is your new thing where you're playing a diabolically cunning serial killer oh my diabolically cunning serial killer not just cunning diabolically cunning who said that that's a direct quote diabolically cunning is that a compliment yeah I get it you're a serial killer do you know what I mean if you're a serial killer you want to be diabolically cunning and punctual those are the two punctual yeah you have to be bang on certain how do you prepare to play that guy what tune's you banging out for that well I'll be dead honest with you yeah Hannah's obsessed with serial killers right in a cool way or in a right she's not far from writing a letter when you know what I mean one of them slightly sorry love she's already written one yeah she probably she's probably got a fucking pen pal somewhere do you know what I mean who I know nothing about and all these parcels that I turn up I'm like watch this now I don't look anymore because there's so many I see it from your side yeah if I was you I would have probably done the same thing no no so basically to start her off she just I was like how am I going to do this but she was like well watch it what's some of these with me?

57:25Yeah, I became obsessed with watching them. And then things just sink in, don't they? Do you know what I mean? But it's all about the script. It's all in the script. It has to start with the script. And we've got a wonderful director who started it all off, Tim Van Patten, who I'd worked with before in adolescence. And I love Tim. He's fantastic. So it was the director for me and the script. Then it was the complexities of the character. And I just thought, I've never done this. I've never done anything like this before. And I just really wanted that I have a go, do you know what I mean? And see what I could do with it.

57:57When did you realise that you were so shit hot at this?

58:00Romesh Ranganathan:Because like, because... You never do. No. But the thing is, it's difficult because you are Stephen Graham, right? But the way you're spoken about, you know, like you think, conversations in pubs are had about, you're one of the greats, right? But you're so good and so versatile at what you do. For example, I'd love to know, do you have any imposter syndrome? Do you have any doubts? Absolutely, yeah. I go through some. Yeah, I'm doing a job coming up soon and already those little tiny fears and doubts and those insecurities are kicking in. And my head can play a lot of tricks on me, do you know what I mean?

58:38My mind can really try and self-sabotage myself to an extent. Self-sabotage is one of my favourite hobbies, man. I love it. Well, wanking to what people are writing about is fucking really ridiculous, do you know what I mean? That's next level. we need to have a proper conversation Rom lad I think you need to sit down with someone fucking hell no wonder I don't blame Lisa for half the thing she says imagine her catching imagine catching him what are you it's not even porn on there do you know what I mean he's reading negative things about himself he's just someone fucking hell lads that's terrible see I told you you put the image in my head and I can't get rid of it

59:15Romesh Ranganathan:it's your fucking fault do you know what we've given you two gifts today

59:22no I don't see look and this is the weird thing as well right this is the thing with it for me properly if I'm completely honest I don't see myself as I still I go to Tesco's I'm at the tip three times a week do you know what I mean because of the shit she's got me collecting off the bat I live my life as I've always lived my life it's nothing has changed I don't this perception of fame and success and things like that I don't see it that way because I'm still just Stephen doing what he's doing. Do you know what I mean?

59:53Romesh Ranganathan:I don't know. Was it a deliberate? I think you wear it very lightly and there is another world in which the person that's done the stuff that you've done, you could have come in here very differently. You could be like entouraged up. That's a twat, isn't it? That's a twat. Let's be honest. That's a twat. That's a twat. There are lots of twats in our industry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. loads of them yeah but you know there's loads of wonderful people as well I'm not lying am I I'm telling the truth yeah there's a load of twats out there none of them are here no no I don't see any of these oh these are all wonderful but yeah yeah but it feels like yeah I just think for your what you've done and how you carry yourself well I'm no more important than anyone else you know what I mean but but again it's for me it's that that kind of self-doubt and I you know I would say only over the past five years maybe that imposter syndrome has decreased yeah especially you know since myself and Hannah get to sit at the table and be a part of those adult conversations now with respects to products that productions that we've got going on and stuff do you know what I mean so there is a change in it and we do me and it constantly pinch ourselves and look at each other and go yeah you know you're sat in a fancy restaurant and all that and we say it all the time we go imagine if our Mars could see us now do you know what I mean because it is it is good I think it's so healthy to do that man absolutely absolutely right we're going to play a little game with you now Stephen zero stakes zero jeopardy okay it's called misquoted I'm going to he's good at this game show shit welcome to misquoted so I'm going to give you some quotes some of them you said some of them you didn't you just got to tell me whether you think you said it or not okay Okay.

1:01:46Romesh Ranganathan:Here's your funny one. Here's your first one. Fuck. Here's your first one. She's funny as fuck. I find her dead saucy. Did you or did you not say that? Kind of sounds like my language, maybe. I'm going to say, what was it about? Oh, this is hard. I'm going to say, yeah. you did say it about Hannah yeah good get in there yes yes yeah that's it yeah of course yeah of course you said it and I find a dead saucy yeah I hope nobody remembers saying it no it's the GQ in last year actually okay it's good to find each other funny right that's a in a relationship imperative it's the best imperative she's my busy mate you know what I mean and she is funny as fuck yeah yeah she's proper funny yeah And Dead Saucy.

1:02:37Yeah, Dead Saucy. I don't have to wank up people writing things about myself. I'm all out in that department, sir, lad. I'm not having a sad, angry wank on me own. Looking up things that people have said negatively about me.

1:02:53Romesh Ranganathan:What a terrible runner I set up for this episode. No, it's my fault. It's my fault. Okay, here's your next one. I didn't want to put a foot wrong with Al Pacino. Did you ever say that? No, I wouldn't have... See, put a foot wrong is not my linguistics. Not your vernacular. You didn't say that. You said... What's happening to me? You can't say anything. You didn't slay that. You're a stroke. You're sitting in my brain, I'm sorry. I think... How close to a stroke would I have to be before you guys would intervene?

1:03:28Romesh Ranganathan:Because you're just sitting there. Steve has had to say something. I'm clearly having some sort of fucking episode. and you're just letting it happen. How close to a stroke would it have to be before you said cots?

1:03:49Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, shit.

1:03:54Romesh Ranganathan:Stephen, what you actually said was I slapped an ice cream out of Al Pacino's hand, is what you said. Yeah. And this is, you improv that, didn't you? Yeah. That takes guts, doesn't it? Yeah, but it's also that kind of being able to play, do you know what I mean? And having that ability to kind of know your character, like we were saying earlier on. I'll tell you what, how it actually happened was, and this is where, I'm like, oh, okay, no. See, we were, miles before I got there, we were reading it because, you know, I always read stuff with Anna as well. and my dyslexia she helps me out with that quite a lot you know what I mean and things and kind of when I'm like re-hacing with her I'm never going for it but I'm like kind of doing bits and she's my best critic and we were doing it and I remember snatching the paper out of her hands and she went what are you doing?

1:04:48I went well I'm gonna I think I might like knock the ice cream out of her and she went okay and I just thought oh no I didn't think that was any good then no But then on the day, I was like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And I said, I didn't say anything to Marty. And I didn't say, I told the cameraman and I told the props fella, I was like, have you got loads of ice cream? And he was like, yeah, we got plenty. And I was like, have you got loads of the bowls? And he was like, yeah, yeah, we got loads. And I said to the cameraman, right, I might do something. Are you going to be over there for this?

1:05:24And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're fine. And then so I left it for the first couple of takes. and then on the third take on the wide I just went on the car went through threw the ice cream and looked at him and I'll never forget it he went and then I had to run round the table and then he went cut and then and then it was the best I mean you know look he's this is this is the thing it is it's I'm so excited working with these people I'm a massive fan I love acting do you know what I mean I've watched them since I was a kid me dad used to get The Empire magazine, they had them lovely little postcards.

1:06:00I had Liverpool FA Cup winning team as well, but I had loads of these actors, these wonderful actors on me wall that I used to look at, you know what I mean? So they'd been a part of my life in that respect and watched all the films and everything. So to be opposite them and then to do something and to see the fear in his eyes. And then when he went cut and then I went, did you see that, Marty? He frightened me. The kid frightened me. And I'm like, why? And he's like, oh. and then we kept doing it and I ended up cutting me hand and he went what and I went I'll try it I've cut my finger and he was like this could give blood for the scene he'll give blood for the scene and I was like wow that's amazing it was wonderful do you know what I mean that appreciation and that respect which I respect him hugely and to just be in them moments

1:06:51Romesh Ranganathan:with him but there's a difference though isn't there between doing that and being so shit scared to be in that situation that you just try and be competent, right? That is kind of the easier route to take. What you did was you took a risk. Yeah, I took a risk. And that takes courage, doesn't it? But my character would take risks. Right, right, right. Do you know what I mean? And it was the reason why he owed me a shitload of dough and he wasn't paying me. And then he insulted me. So then it's a different thing altogether. Do you know what I mean? It changes it. So it's having that freedom to be able to play.

1:07:23And already, you know, like I said before, I'm kind of not preempting, but I'm going, I'm worrying about the thing that I'm going to be doing. But then having these conversations with you, it's like, oh no, hang on, I'm actually all right at this. I know what I'm doing. I will be all right as long as I play. And I don't get locked up and have that fear. Do you know what I mean?

1:07:44Romesh Ranganathan:No, it's an amazing thing, man. Okay, here's your next one. You're two for two, by the way. Congrats. My mum used to dress me in some funky looking clothes. I had a navy velvet suit when I was about three yeah yeah I said that and it's a boss little it's a boss little get up yeah so were you like were you dressing good from early days yeah I mean I used to yeah I had like a I had an overcoat and all that and I had my uncle Joey's wedding I had this grey suit with a little grey tie I had an overcoat and I had a trilby it was a bollocks because honestly I looked at nuts you know what I was there I was on a fucking little how old's my hair being a bad nine or something like that but yeah she used to dress me and yeah my man had a lot of style yeah I mean you like your clubber now don't you as well yeah I love my clubber you've grown up being a bit of a clothes horse have you yeah I like yeah she'll tell you I've got too many jackets and trainees but I bet you're the same yeah I'm on a one in one out now at my house yeah it's very difficult it's not easy is it No, it's not.

1:08:52Romesh Ranganathan:And I love a jacket. Don't you love a jacket? Mate, my house is like a fucking shack at Emporium. It's so many of them. Yeah. It's crazy. What do you reckon that is? Jackets and trainees predominantly white. I don't know, man. But like, sometimes I get gifted a pair of trainers. Yeah. And I think, I can't get into trouble for that. I've not paid any money, right? Surely, this is going to be received positively. No, mate. No. Where are they going to go? Where will you put those? Yeah, where are you putting them? Not in my closet. I've actually nicked a little section of ears as well. That's the problem.

1:09:31Romesh Ranganathan:Oh, look, you've got yourself another pair of trainers. No, but I didn't pay for them. What can I do? Yeah. You know what I mean? People want to give me trainers. Game recognised game, you know what I mean? Okay, here's your next one. I'm a hard man on screen. I'm a hard man at home. Not at all. Not at all. I'd never say anything later. The real quote is my family's always calling me a soppy twat. Yeah. Yeah. Because I am. You're a soft guy. It's nice. That's nice, man. Yeah. You know, look, to me, the biggest form of masculinity is vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah, that's just, that's kind of, that's who I am.

1:10:10Do you know what I mean?

1:10:11Romesh Ranganathan:Do you know, I had, I get so, I want my, you know when your kids spend time with you, right? Yeah. you get that self-doubt because you think they could be doing anything they could be hanging out with their mates and whatever so on my last tour Theo my eldest he was 16 15, 16 at the time I was doing a couple of nights in Birmingham on the tour and I said to him you've got half term why don't you come up to Birmingham and we can hang out and he goes yeah so he comes up and he comes with me he comes to the shows didn't watch the show mind you stayed backstage played Mario Kart but anyway he came to the shows we hung out during the day went out afterwards I was so worried that he was having a good time.

1:10:50Romesh Ranganathan:I kept going to him, you're having a good time, right? You're having a good time. Eventually he went to me, Dad, can you do me a favour? Can you just assume I'm having a good time? And if I'm not, I'll let you know. Because I was checking on him so much. It was so embarrassing. Anyway, he's not made plans to come on the next tour. Here's your next one. I stopped watching my team Liverpool play live because it fucks with my spiritual equilibrium. Definitely said that, yeah. You did say that. I definitely said that. So what's the deal with you and watching Liverpool then?

1:11:21I change a little bit. Yeah.

1:11:24Romesh Ranganathan:Scary? Yeah. Shouting? Very. Sweary. Nice. Telly. Yeah. Front of. Right. That close. Yeah. I can go from near to... Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Do you ever go to the games? Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. It's different. When I'm at a game, it's different. It's weird, isn't it? It's different. it's so weird how you can sort of handle it when you're there yeah watching on TV watching on telly is completely different isn't it so I don't I purposefully try not to watch games now on the telly you don't watch Liverpool on the telly at all I I I no no I try not to I try not to just be I don't know why it's last season and this the beginning of this season you know I think we'll come good in the end he's a wonderful manager you.

1:12:14I just think we need that right back situation. But hopefully the big fella's gone in that position now and we'll sort that out. But it's I don't know. I think we've got some great players but they're not clicking properly. Once they understand how he works and what he wants from them

1:12:30Romesh Ranganathan:I don't think we're seeing this season's Liverpool yet. I think that's the truth of it. I think it may come but how long we haven't got long, do you know what I mean? Before you fall back. Well that's the problem with the Premier League now. It's like people start making assessments on the season now. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense, do you know what I mean? But that's where we're at within the game. And who's your team? I'm an Arsenal fan. Phenomenal. He's absolutely phenomenal. It's exciting. What a team, do you know what I mean? Yeah. What a manager. Yeah. But they've stuck by him and allowed him to...

1:13:01Well, he's been given a project.

1:13:03Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And there was a time when you'd be at Arsenal and I remember hearing people go, get this guy out of my... People were like going, Arteta's not the one. but it just shows you patience and perseverance do you know what I mean and allowing him to develop his own style in that club has completely transformed it do you know what I mean teams don't do that no because they want the instant success they need that instant success and fans as you know fans can be very fickle yeah well look you're 5 for 5 or misquoted well done that brings us almost to the end of our podcast you've been amazing what have we done Wow, I know.

1:13:43Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I know. Time flies. I didn't even get to say how lovely you smelt. Stephen, don't do this. You do smell gorgeous. Don't do this. That aftershave's gorgeous. What is it, lad? You're such a piece of shit. No, no, what is it? I like a nice scent, you know what I mean? Oh, that's another thing. I use scent for my characters to find the mood. I love a nice smell. What is it? It's called Oud for Greatness. Excuse me? Come again? it's called Ood Rewind what did you just say it's called come on take your time it's called Ood Ood yeah for greatness okay and where did you get your Ood for greatness I I I I was on TikTok it's alright we're in a safe space let it out you've already told me you wanked over things people say about you I mean Ood for greatness how you got it can't be that bad can it come on I was on TikTok And what were you doing on TikTok?

1:14:44Romesh Ranganathan:I was just having a little doom scroll. And somebody said, it's so embarrassing. Go on. Do you want to get loads of compliments with your fragrance? You should get Oud for greatness, man. When you put this on and walk into a room, people cannot stop telling you how great you smell. And I thought, click, and I bought it. It's sad, isn't it? I wanted compliments. Oh. oh was you a lonely child you did have friends didn't you yeah yeah yeah and a couple of them were visible

1:15:26oh

1:15:37Romesh Ranganathan:mate it's been such an honour to talk to you The last thing I'd love to ask you before we release you into the wild is we like to try and have a little moment at the end of the podcast. A dream you have, something you haven't done that you'd love to do or the best advice you've been given or something you've never said publicly before. Any of those would be would be great if you've got anything. Oh, it's a good question. Thanks. I'm amazed I was able to get it out after the stroke. A dream. something I haven't seen. Well, let me ask you this. You've had such an incredible career. Yeah. Are you now, like, if you retired now, Yeah.

1:16:19Romesh Ranganathan:are you happy? Like, or is there some sort of thing, what is the thing that you'd love to have achieved by the time you finish up? Or have you done it? I think just, just being able to, to kind of be a part of great projects. Yeah. that's basically it for me do you know what I mean and that you know living just for today being in the day being in the moment and being present constantly yeah trying to switch the the monkey mind off yeah no I'm just so I'm full of gratitude for everything that I have do you know what man it's sort of like the perfect thing because I think you've achieved so much you are so humble with it and you also try and give back it's like such an honour to chat to you thank you Thank you so much for coming on.

1:17:08Romesh Ranganathan:Please give it up for Stephen Graham over here, everybody. Oh, yeah. Mate, legend. Thank you so much for watching and listening to this episode. Before you go, if you've enjoyed this episode and you've not subscribed, that's a bold decision. Crazy behaviour. Follow and subscribe to The Romesh Ranganathan Show wherever you listen. It helps me, really, like, really helps me. It helps the team. And it costs you absolutely nothing. We drop episodes every Monday and Thursday. Monday's I'm joined by great guests Thursday's my mum Shanti joins me to answer your questions and family dilemmas I'll see you Thursday with mum who, let's face it is who you're actually here for If you've got a problem you want to solve or a story you want to share send it to podcast.rangabi.com voice note or text us on 07731 623 355 We can't promise good advice but you might end up on the show See you soon!

1:18:01Oh shut up Romesh Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light, and slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

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