Stephen Merchant: Being The Awkward Guy & Letting Go Of THE OFFICE

32:25Romesh Ranganathan:that that we couldn't have but the thing that i the thing there's that's so mind-blowing to me with the whole thing but particularly the tim dawn thing is it's very easy to watch it and go they've push this in the right way and you know it feels like really engaging when you're inside it you you is you don't know how much you're if you you might be doing too much right without realizing like were you were there versions of it where you tried it we've gone yes like one thing we did was we we tried writing kind of spiky sparky uh sort of um back and forth conversation like you'd get in a rom-com yeah and what we discovered was it just felt very written right so what we would then do is we'd often let those actors improvise we just give them sort of somewhere to chat and and what we found again was that them just chatting like friends just made it feel romantic yeah because that's what romantic people do they're not constantly bantering they're just hanging out and enjoying each other's company and that again because the cameras are on them it feels it feels a bit sort of more charged than it was so there were things we learned along the way yeah that we didn't have to write banter for them.

33:31Yeah, that's incredible. No, I appreciate you saying that because that was always a very important part of it for me. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? ZepBound Terzepatide may be able to help. ZepBound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. ZepBound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15 milligram injection. ZepBound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines.

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35:36Romesh Ranganathan:So good. And with the paper, what's your involvement with that exactly? It's mainly cash in cheques. Is it really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must feel amazing. that's like you know I think like is it 50 cent that said you know you know when you you truly made it when you're making money without actually having to do any work that's where you're at well with the paper um they were very kind in sort of involving us and looking at the the scripts and letting us you know watch the table read you know and and things like that but um do you get like what's the level of reverence when you turn up to the table read well on that instance we watched it on zoom because uh because it was in a little more powerful exactly just a face on the screen yeah but it's muted so they don't even know if you're laughing or not um no i remember going to the original office when they did it and there was a sort of nice respect for us um which was lovely but but again i it's sort of to me now it's like um it must be the same again going back to music if you've written wonderwall yeah there are so many people doing their version of wonder that you're sort of you're just pleased that they like Wonderwall yeah you know but you're not sort of scrutinizing every adaptation of it and every version and cover version of it you're just sometimes you go oh I really like that version of Wonderwall but yeah it's sort of it's its own thing now it's like it's a standard yeah you know it's a musical standard you could have gone you could have gone the other way though couldn't you if you were so inclined and be really pernickety and sort of you know you worked so hard on those characters and that setup yeah you could have gone and the other one being really precious about it.

37:09But that was just something I had observed at other times, they tried to adapt British shows, and the original creators had been involved, particularly on an American version, and they had clung too much to their original. And they hadn't let it evolve or grow or change. Because the thing about America is that even though we think we know it and understand it, because we've so absorbed it, there's still so many things we don't, unless you grow up and live there, you just don't quite understand. yeah like I wouldn't have known that you know a pub quiz is not quite the same it's not quite the same association in America they do have like you know trivia quizzes but they're not there's a certain something about a pub quiz yeah and the competitiveness of it or whatever and just little thing like when they did the French version of the office apparently I sort of on a Friday it's quite traditional to just crack open some champagne you know in the in the office yeah it's such a unique yeah I think it's that it's what I've met so that was one of the reasons why we handed it over to American people because we just thought somehow we're gonna we might and actually the more they got away from our version and got into their own

38:12Romesh Ranganathan:groove I think the better it became did you so you you enjoyed it when it because obviously they took it far beyond what the what the original uh British one did and you and were you were like really engrossed and like in and like in enjoying what they were doing I was enjoying it as a like I'd won a competition where they said um Americans are going to make a tv show based on your idea and you go, how about some guys in an office? They go, yeah, no problem. And then each week they send you a tape of a show they've made. You go, yeah, I like this. It's fun. It's amazing. It's sort of like, it's like a, I mean, we can't name him anymore, but it's like a Jim Will Fix It moment.

38:50Romesh Ranganathan:No, it's brilliant. Well, look, you're in a new Christmas movie this year, Goodbye June, directed by Kate Winslet, written by Joe Anders. How would you describe the film? it's a very lovely funny comedy drama about a family with an excellent cast I have a very small role, Kate Winslet was very sweet to be in extras about, I don't know what it was, 15, 20 years ago and I got a call from her saying, hey Merchant, you remember when I did you a favour and was in extras, would you do me a favour and be in this film I'm making and directing and I was sort of, I tried to get out of it but it's difficult I owed her, big time and so I'm only a small role in what is a very lovely film with an amazing cast, Helen Mirren and Timothy Spall and Kate herself and a great cast and it's, as I say, just a very lovely sort of comedy drama about a woman who is a sort of matriarch and the family kind of coming together around Christmas to sort of deal with that and it's just really beautiful.

39:52It's very, very nice. Kate's a brilliant director. It's so lovely watching her. There's a lot of kids in the film and I was watching her one day And kids are obviously notoriously difficult to direct because they're kids, obviously very young kind of kids. And she wanted them to go to this window and sort of look out at this fake snow that was falling. And she was trying to say, hey, run to the window. But of course, they run off in a different direction. They do something slightly different. And in the end, after her patience of a saint, she just went, oh, please just do it. And I just thought, that's directing.

40:26That's directing for you. the times you want to say to an actor oh please just do it

40:33Romesh Ranganathan:we had actually Ben and I were working on a avoidance and when when I was in the scenes and we'd start like pissing about and like improv and stuff like that and we'd start making each other laugh I thought it was so charming and like I just thought oh god the whole crew must just think oh my god there's comedy falling out of them this is so lovely they're in a flow state oh yeah so until I was at the monitor and I was sort of the other side of it trying to get this like watch I wasn't directing but just alongside Ben watching two people do exactly that yeah and your experience of that is very different on the other side it's very different I mean we there are things I mean we put them on DVDs and they're online now of Ricky and I doing extras and just not being able to get through a scene because we're laughing about something or there's a scene where I'm supposed to be wanking over a nudie pen you know those pens where you turn them upside down and a woman's clothes fall off.

41:28And I'm sort of hidden behind a desk and she catches me. And it's just important. And the problem is you get into this weird, it's like the hiccups or something. You just can't stop giggling and laughing. And again, you assume the crew are going, this is an absolute delight. But they're just thinking, we're never going to get to lunch. I know, I know. You know, that's all they're thinking. And then you sort of walk off just looking around, goes, is anyone going to cough? And there's always someone holding a boom above their head and a guy holding a sort of reflective board. And they're just thinking, you.

41:55Bastard.

41:56Romesh Ranganathan:You self-indulgent fucking prick. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We've got a question from my mum, I believe. Now, full disclosure, I've heard this question. I think it's actually quite invasive. Oh, okay. So feel free to not answer it. Let's hear it anyway. Stephen, this is Ramesha's mum. You are so funny and handsome. Thank you. I'm wondering, have you ever thought of having kids and getting married? I'm too old but there must be lots of women who would be very keen is that the end? okay she went up at the end well this is interesting because it sounds like she's bought into the idea which I've often used in work I've done of being a sort of failed ladies man or wannabe ladies man or sort of you know what I mean or like hopeless with women or often because I play characters like that or I make jokes about that.

42:57In actual fact, obviously, you know, I'm one of the great lovers. Yeah. And I think anyone who knows me privately, Ramesh, can confirm that.

43:05Romesh Ranganathan:Look, I do think it's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is to just put this fallacy to bed. And when I say put it to bed, I know that's something you've done to a lot of ladies. There you go. You know? There you go. Yeah. Like, I don't know why my mum... But I have... It's interesting because, again, I do think that I have a slight regret that I've leaned into that so many times. Like even when I did The Outlaws, I gave myself a character that was another sort of slightly hopeless, awkward, nerdy guy. Whereas I thought, well, I'm right in this. I could give myself a sort of suave James Bond-like character.

43:41Why have I done this again? I'm sort of playing and I'm just pandering to a perception of myself. And when I used to do podcasts, I always leaned into that. and in stand-up it was always funny to be the guy who went on a bad date or the girl rejected him or whatever. Because those stories have happened in the past and they're funny. But they're the stories, that was me when I was 19. And so I sort of, now I'm sort of, actually I would quite like to remind people that, like for instance, a lot of people - You've got something about you. Well, not just that, but also people, it's like sometimes people have forgotten that, oh no, I also wrote that and directed it.

44:15Yeah, yeah, yeah. Produced it. and you know there's a guy behind the guy yeah this is not this is not the sum total of this

44:21Romesh Ranganathan:person that's right yeah yeah it's interesting i remember like when i uh i think when i really early on in my when i was doing stand-up somebody came up to me and said um i find it really brave how unattractive you're willing to make yourself on stage

44:39Romesh Ranganathan:yeah wow you know because you do because like your natural default right or my natural default is that I couldn't ever write something where I'm being like the alpha lover or whatever you want to call it. I just can't do it, you know? And I don't want to do it either. And so then, like, I think, like, you know, I've not had as prolific an acting career as you have by a long stretch, but, like, you... All of the characters I've played are sort of, like, they're a bit bumbly or they're a bit, like, illusory or they get angry and it's just, like, a bit tragic, you know all of that kind of stuff or they're just unable to express their emotions and all of that and actually the truth is even though people know this is a work of fiction you are programming people to believe that that that's who you are right when they watch that and so right they're just like this is what this guy is yeah and it's interesting isn't it because you know much as i my real self is i'd come out in a leather jumpsuit like eddie murphy yeah of course that would express the real me you know the confidence yeah yeah sure the swagger yeah but um no but joking aside you sort of you you yeah you you build a certain kind of image particularly through when you do comedy yes because for some reason people they assume that's you and yeah and um whereas if you're an actor you can you can keep it a bit more abstract keep it more vague and i remember like you know again i don't want to name people that you know that bring controversial names into it but woody allen was a big influence on me growing up because and he also played that kind of awkward yeah nerdy guy or whatever and and i just sort of see interviews or films later where he kind of moved away from that or he tried to do drama or he was in interviews being very earnest and dry and you think where's the funny yeah guy and you realize no because that's not him yeah yeah yeah he's a thoughtful smart brilliant you know yeah i remember thinking that about um not in the same way but Sylvester Stallone is like such an articulate, smart, like really, but you saw him playing these, well, Rambo was essentially mute.

46:43Romesh Ranganathan:Yes. And, you know, Rocky is kind of this like real simple guy, you know, sort of, and then you, I remember the first time I read an interview with him, I was like, is this Sylvester Stallone? How can this be Sylvester Stallone? Well, the fact that he wrote all the Rocky films, you know, he's directed some of them and he's written many of the other things he does. Yeah. I think, I mean, just the idea of Sylvester Stallone sat there writing, a script is just extraordinary. just imagine him like with his shirt off yeah sweating it's kind of extraordinary just pounding eggs that's right that's right yeah um yeah so you but you um i mean you said woody allen moving moving across but you you're you you've made the move into sort of drama i'm really enjoying that yeah um are you in uh the walking dead aren't you that's right yeah um how is what was that like and how did that all come about well yeah i did a um i'd done a bit in a film called logan where i played a sort of giant that was mutant so good yeah it was a really good really good film there and then that really gave me a taste for sort of stepping beyond comedy because i don't know about you but i didn't start life as an actor it wasn't my first thought yeah it was because being a stand-up or being a comedy writer and so so i don't feel like i have the the kind of um acting armory so each of these new things is like a it's like you're sort of trying something out for the first time and and so then the more i've kind of done some dramatic stuff like you say playing this serial killer steven port you're just finding a different it's exercising different muscles and um and i've been really enjoying the sort of the challenge of it um the sort of trying to i don't know trying to tap into other emotions sometimes it becomes quite rightly because like in the case of steven port who's a real life killer murderer you have no sense of knowing what his motivation is or what his interior thought process is.

48:32So when we were doing some court scenes, we were recreating his trial. The whole time you're up there thinking, well, is he, does he know he's lying? Has he convinced himself that this is how it happened? And you start having to sort of create a sort of internal logic for yourself just to make sense of it. And that stuff became really sort of chewy and enjoyable and interesting.

48:52Romesh Ranganathan:Did you know to do that? Or was that something that you... It was just the only way I could, I couldn't figure out how I should deliver the lines without thinking is he is he lying here does should i be playing it like he's making this up as he's going along or has he thought about them at home and he's you know just any kind of logic to try and piece together how you might deliver it yeah and of course you just end up having to find those answers yourself whether they're right or not yeah i just found that i don't know i found it really nutritious and interesting much like when i'm down the gym you know it's the same sort of thing absolutely what's your what's your protein strategy it's really tough i'm six foot seven uh it's hard to get the sheer amount of meat into me that i need to yeah a lot of chicken yeah um and it's tough a lot of protein shakes yeah really hard it cost a fortune yeah very expensive six foot seven and you're trying to get jacked that's why people are eating thousands of chicken breasts it's the cheapest way to get it into you yeah um but when you when When you did Logan, in my mind, because I've not done anything like that, but I did, even walking onto any kind of film set, I did something, a really small thing, something years ago.

50:02Romesh Ranganathan:And you are very conscious in a way that you're not when you're doing a sitcom. When you do a sitcom, I feel like whoever's doing a sitcom, you sort of feel like you've walked into a load of mates. Even if you don't know them, you've all got a similar sensibility and you're working towards doing this thing that's a fun thing. and whereas when you go into a film you're walking into this massive machine right and there's so many people doing all these things was that was it intimidating going on something like logan it was intimidating um you're right and again i think because i knew it would be i was trying to be as well prepared as i could in terms of the the lines and things like that um but what's amazing is how quickly it becomes as familiar as anything else so you know like um you you think oh this is it i'm now i'm doing like a you know i'm doing a marvel film a superhero and it's big budget it's huge jackman and then um you know there was a moment where we were filming in natchez mississippi tiny little town in mississippi it's in the sort of sweaty kind of summer months and I was in a hotel room with Richard E.

51:13Grant, not in a hotel, but in a hotel with Richard E. Grant. We were in a room together. And everyone was filming at night and we weren't needed. They just had us on standby if they needed us. And so now we spent two and a half weeks, Richard and I, never being used, just wandering around Natchez, Mississippi, where every restaurant, of which there were two, closed at 3pm. so you had to get in early and get your dinner because you wouldn't be anywhere. There was no room service in the hotel. So now you're just like an old married couple just wandering around. Never met the man before and we're just sort of pottering about you know antiquing eating together every day running out of conversation.

51:57At one point we went to talking about pub quiz there was a trivia quiz we looked forward to it it was a diary entry look forward to that next week and it came round and we thought oh quiz night and we went round and we did the quiz and no disrespect to the people of Natchez but we were two of the smartest blokes there and it got down it was a tie break situation us and another team and the question was how many people survived the sinking of the Titanic

52:21Romesh Ranganathan:now we should have collaborated on that question but Richard was so annoyed at being in Natchez for like two weeks he just wrote an answer and gave it in without even consulting with me we didn't get it right I was furious didn't talk to him for 48 hours livid well you know what you did Richard i'm not even going to bring it up but you know what you did and i mean sort of and so the all the glamour and sort of thrill and excitement of oh my god we're on a big movie production and suddenly it is sort of it just you get down to the kind of weird yeah mundane nature of making films you still got to just fill your day when you're not needed you're not and it and i don't mean that i'm not saying it in a oh woe is me i'm just saying in a kind of how quickly you acclimatize yeah to glamour yes and excitement and you just and it just starts to become a job of work that's kind of helpful though isn't it to disengage from the magnitude of it yes that's right that's right yeah um but like it was really exciting as a fan to see you in Logan because like you know I'm a Marvel fan and then obviously huge fan of yours and then I don't know how to you know like when you go one of our owners like made it do you know what I mean it's like it was really exciting a really exciting thing and but obviously like you're big in America right you know and you've done that thing that I don't know it feels like because of the more global nature of entertainment now it feels like it could happen more but British acts or British entertainers making it in America it feels like a huge thing doesn't it?

53:48Romesh Ranganathan:What's it like being big in America? What is that like? Well I don't know that I I think that I get opportunities in America and there's certainly a portion of the audience that knows who I am but I wouldn't say I'm a household name there but But it's exciting because, like to go back to the office, I was just a fan of American entertainment growing up. And a lot of my heroes were American and they worked in the American TV or film industry. And so to be able to go there and sort of be part of that and to drive into Paramount Studios or whatever and to know that before you went Billy Wilder or Bob Hope or Greta Garbo or whoever, it's just nice to be sort of part of that that history you know that's that's the thrill of it for me because in the end it does all come back to it's just exciting to be part of that to do that for a living it was the thing i was a fan of it as a kid i was a little bit of a historian of it as a kid and then to sort of get even from going to bristol to london was crazy to me walking around the bbc when they used to have that donut shaped bbc building yeah i remember going there when i was sort of in my early 20s walking around and coming the other way, Noel Edmonds.

55:00Couldn't believe it. Noel Edmonds walking towards me in his little Cuban heels, carrying a Natasha case, thinking, what's in there? I bet there's some gold dust ideas in there, isn't there? There's a new blobby spin-off in that, I bet. So exciting. And so each step of the way, then you go to LA for the first time, and you're like, well, this is LA, this is bad. And each step of the way, it's not losing that excitement. and then somewhere along the line you're in Natchez, Mississippi you go for fuck's sake fucking over fucking over

55:32Romesh Ranganathan:I remember like just the whole idea of I remember the first time I got paid to do a weekend at a comedy club and they paid for my hotel I think I jumped up and down on the bed I couldn't believe that me saying like saying these bullshit jokes that I'd written had led somebody going we like that so much we're going to pay for you to stay in the town it's incredible now if the hotel's not good I'm absolutely furious you're furious you're kicking off I know what you're like it's outrageous that they would treat somebody of my magnitude yeah you know like that do you have like do you have ambitions left yeah many I think yes is there any like what would you like to do I'd like to write and direct more films right and I'd like to do them in different genres right I'd like to do a sort of action movie as a director I'd like to do a you know you know like a little indie award winner I'd like, I'm just, I'm a fan of so much stuff.

56:28And, you know, you kind of, you build your name in a certain strand of entertainment. And when you try and kind of transition to other areas, people are sometimes a bit like, well, hang on, are you sure? Yeah. And so, yeah, I just, I'm sort of kind of got an appetite for still doing, and I still get up and I'm still excited and excited to try different acting roles and to do more drama. And just, I enjoy what I do. My dad, when I was very young, who was a plumber and a builder, and he said to me, he didn't always love doing that for a living, and he said, you never do a job that you don't enjoy.

57:01And that really stuck with me, and I've always tried really hard to do that and to remain excited.

57:08Romesh Ranganathan:I don't know if you remember this, but we bumped into each other, and you did say this when you arrived, but we bumped into each other, I think it might have been at the BAFTAs. Sounds about right, mate. And you said something along the lines of, I think I said I was going to the toilet, and he said, I'm amazed you've got the time to go to the toilet with the amount of TV shows you do. I don't think I said the amount of... I think it was something like that. It was the number of shows, something like that. Because I am amazed by your work ethic. Because I think I've got a really impressive work ethic, but yours is extraordinary.

57:38I also don't have kids, as your mother rightly pointed out, so I don't know how you've ever seen them. I don't know how you do it. I genuinely would be interested to know, is it just diary management?

57:49Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, I guess so. I mean, look, don't get me wrong. I don't think I've got that. There's times when I definitely haven't got the balance right. But you just try and lock off time with the families and protect certain months of the year and stuff like that. But I do think part of the problem, actually, in not achieving that proper balance is that none of it really feels like work. I've said this before. It's all enjoyable. It's all really good fun. So if somebody says to you, we're going to pay you to do this thing that you would do for free, do you want to do it yeah yeah like 100 % I want to do it you know and so that's actually I have I don't have a good work ethic like if you if I was asked to do something that I didn't want to do that was my job I'd be considered one of the laziest people in the world like I am lazy inherently lazy but I'm just lucky just so lucky to have fallen into this thing that it doesn't feel like work to me but building a stand-up show or if you write a sitcom or something that's a lot of work that's labor intensive there are times when it like there are times when it you sort of go when you've got a deadline approaching or you've got a set of like when there's there's elements of all of it when you get a set of notes on a sitcom script yeah i would say that's that's that's up there with some of my least favorite times you know addressing notes but like when you to me i sort of think oh you're writing this thing about these characters you've made up and then you're going to go and act you're going to go and play that character like what like what a laugh like do you know i mean and then right this don't get me wrong there are times when i think it was on the last tour i did a show in cheltenham and it went like super shit like so badly that i phoned my agent and i said we've got to pull the tour like this is this is crap right like you know it's not good enough and i don't know what we're going to do we're gonna have to and that i felt i did feel like miserable you know i just was like i've got to rework this I've got to rework this.

59:44Romesh Ranganathan:So you just did Rob's act the next night. And then I remember speaking to Lisa, my wife, and I said to her, this is happening. She goes, are you aware that this happens every tour? And I went, what? She goes, every tour, you do a show early on. She had that tired tone to watch. You come home and you say, I've got to pull the tour. It's fine. You'll move through it. It was so horrible. You've achieved your dream of being a touring stand-up. And then you complain to your other half about it's not going exactly how I hoped it would. There are some details that aren't how I dreamed. Yeah. You know, so self-indulgent.

1:00:22Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah. But, you know, so there are elements of it that hard work. But I mean, I just I love it. I think the thing I'm discovering, I'm not as prolific as I wish I was. And part of that is because I made my name as a writer. Right. And so people tend not occasionally. obviously I'll do some acting jobs here and there but they people think I write my own stuff and he say don't bother calling Steve he writes his own stuff whereas I'd love it that someone had just written me something and it does sometimes happen and sometimes ironically I'm writing my own thing and I can't do it but as I get older I'm just like wow that's a lot of time I've spent in my office writing and I enjoy it but it is exhausting and it is time consuming and it is and it can be frustrating.

1:01:11And I remember years ago, I did a film with Owen Wilson, who in his early career had written some of the films he was in and they were really good. And I said, oh, why don't you write more movies, Owen? And he said, because it's just hard work and it takes a lot of time. And at the time I was kind of young, I was like, what do you mean? But now I'm sort of slightly getting like, oh yeah, I know you're right. But the flip of that is there is something so exciting. Some of the funniest moments, the happiest times have been in writing rooms with someone else, Ricky or whoever it was, just laughing or getting giddy or excited about something.

1:01:41And then when it does find its way onto screen, and particularly if it's an actor that you admire delivering it or something, that's the reward. Being from a blank page, there was nothing, and now there's this show. It's amazing.

1:01:58Romesh Ranganathan:It's magic. Wonderful. It's so amazing. Speaking of amazing and magic, we've got a little game for you that we play with all our guests. It's called Misquoted. Oh. And I'm going to read some quotes, some of which are things that you've actually said. Yeah. And some of them are false. Okay. And we'd love to get your take on whether you said this on.

1:02:29Romesh Ranganathan:It's misquoted. Here's the first one. Good luck to you. Quotes. Quotes, yeah. my only demon is I don't have any demons yeah that's me yeah correct that was a telegraph in 2005 so you don't have any demons not that I'm aware of in fact as I do stand up again I get really I'm very jealous of the comedians that have real demons to draw on because you like Richard Pryor right love Pryor and that was a man as I mentioned in my show actually he was obviously a man you know who grew up you know in a bordello I think his own mother was a sex worker yeah and so to have that kind of obviously I wouldn't wish that on anyone but it fuelled that incredible that incredible kind of anger and sort of that was in the DNA of his stand up, it was just extraordinary I think he's probably he's probably the best in my mind, the best that's ever been but then I remember I did a documentary Sky did this thing like Passions and my passion was Richard Pryor and one of the things we were sort of looking at was the fact that his background, although like you said, you wouldn't wish it on anyone, as a comic, you are kind of jealous.

1:03:39Romesh Ranganathan:You're just a bit jealous. 100 % jealous. Every time someone tells me something like, you know, well, I discovered at the age of 25 that my father's not my real father. You lucky bastard. Oh, that's gold dust. You know what I mean? 100%, yeah. Not just for Senate, but for writing, creativity generally. And it's like, it's rewired you somehow, and it's messing with you in a way that's going to lead to some incredible creative thing. If someone says, you know, my mum's an alcoholic, I'm like, you... Why do you even bring that up to me? My mother will have a little tipple at Christmas, you bastard.

1:04:13Romesh Ranganathan:Okay, very good. Here's your next one. What I've learnt since coming to LA is that they might be better at hiding their insecurities than some putts from Bristol like me, but at their core, they're all equally self-doubting. Well, even if I didn't say it, it sounds like something I would have said, because I do think that's true. You did say it? I did say it, yes. Telegraph again? Yes. 20 years later. I express all my big thoughts to the Telegraph. Are you going to read one about what I think of reform? I think he's got a lot of wonderful ideas.

1:04:45Yes, no, I do feel that. And that's one of the other things I think I've discovered, which, you know, what would you teach your younger self, is that you realise the more older you get, and particularly the more you work with people that on the surface have it all or famous or successful or whatever, that everyone's got their insecurities. And the truth is a lot of people have got those demons that they're running from. And that a lot of very successful people have a lot of trauma that they seem to be constantly running or a black hole of something that they're trying to fill. And so it makes you both more understanding and I think slightly less intimidated because sometimes you'll sort of see a certain kind of behavior or the way that someone speaks and you'll think, oh I see that's coming from insecurity that you know someone's um someone's a bit arrogant or someone's a bit of a dick or that's insecurity that's leading to that yes and and you and knowing that is almost like a like a tool that you can use well I I think it just you know because

1:05:44Romesh Ranganathan:I've tried to do I try and try and do that when you sort of think where is that coming from because yeah people aren't really arseholes no they are that is come from some that's right set of experiences they've had or something they're defending their patch if you like as a result of what they've been through and if you kind of appreciate that i think just things become a lot easier don't they you know you sort of well you just don't you don't take it personally yeah you don't put it on yourself as much you don't think oh it's me yeah you just think oh how do i navigate around yeah yeah and it's still it's still a thing that i don't like how that this is gone right but i don't now think you're a prick forever i just think you might you know there's a reason for that do you think that came from being a teacher that you're i don't know it's uh maybe a little bit but i just just because you're a bloody wise guy i just think it's because i'm a really really like informed cool don uh no it was actually weird this is such a wanky thing to say but david foster wallace yes he did that commencement speech where he talked about how we're hardwired to be the center of the universe yeah and he said if you just let go of that belief and he sort of gave a series of examples where you get cut up in traffic or the person in front of you at a supermarket pays for something with change and you know it takes ages and you're just like why is this happening to me so if you take all of those instances and just put yourself in the position of that person might have had somebody is ill and they're desperately trying to get there and that's why they're sweeping across traffic and this person has just managed to scrape you know he gave like it was much more eloquent than how I've just put it he said suddenly life becomes a lot more easy a lot easier to navigate because you're not like, all of this shit is happening to me.

1:07:23Romesh Ranganathan:Yeah, that's right. It really changed my way of thinking about things. Smoked mackerel is Gert Lush. Well, again, I don't know if I did say that, but I do love smoked mackerel. You didn't use the Bristol slang, but you did express that sentiment on the Dish podcast, which was, of course, serialised in the Telegraph.

1:07:45Romesh Ranganathan:But you love smoked mackerel. Love a bit of smoked mackerel. Good for you. Yeah, there's the headline. There's the pullout quote of the interview. I was thinking, when are we going to get something clippable?

1:07:58Romesh Ranganathan:Six foot seven is too big. Growing up, I spent as much time as possible in the distance. That's right. Yes. Yes. Well, like I said, I... That's the Guardian, actually. So you've moved across the political landscape. There you are. I like to try to cover all my bases. I've just gone and sell some bloody tickets. Yes, I do think... And again, I'm talking a bit about it in this new stand-up thing, about the fact that being six for seven is very it's the thing that sort of defined me in many ways when i look back because as i mentioned earlier you know like always sort of standing out from a crowd and particularly when you're a teenager you don't always want that you don't always want to stand out you know and i so i never you know like i think logan was the first time i'd shaved my head right i didn't experiment with that when i was a kid i didn't know what it would be like if i just shaved all my hair off because i was already standing out or didn't get a mohawk or whatever it is.

1:08:46And so you realise that sort of a lot of what you do has been defined in some way by your height and it being the first thing that people notice about you and, like I say, not being able to sort of blend into the background, not being able to choose when you sort of announce yourself, as it were, when you present yourself. And so it is quite, so, you know, again, I'm not, we talk about demons, I'm not talking about demons, but it's interesting that the more I look back on it, the more I realised how it kind of informed me, particularly as a teenager.

1:09:17Romesh Ranganathan:Well, I think that, I've said before that I don't think if I didn't have a lazy eye, I don't think I'd have ended up being a comedian. Right. Because it's as soon as people look at you, that's the first thing. If you talk to me for 30 seconds and then wandered off and somebody asked who I was, they'd go, it's the guy with the lazy eye. That's their defining thing about you. And so that informs how they interact with you. And then I think you then get a self-defense mechanism, which is humor. And your skills get sharpened in that way, in a way. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like, yeah, it's weird, isn't it?

1:09:55Romesh Ranganathan:Having that thing of, that is how people see you. It's the guess who, as you mentioned, it's the guess who descriptor. It'd be hard for them to express that I'm tall, but that would be the thing. Oh, it's that tall guy. It's the guy with the lazy eye. That would be the defining thing. Absolutely. okay last one I invited Carl Pilkington to stay with me in LA he said no you're alright

1:10:21I don't think that's true I don't think I've said that I don't think I've ever invited him to stay with me

1:10:27Romesh Ranganathan:no it doesn't sound like something I would do no you're right we made it up we made that one up you were very good what was the score do we know you got them all right didn't you yeah well done really good thank you really great work Stephen it's been an absolute delight to have you on the podcast. I really appreciate it. The one thing we do ask of everybody, and you can also point black refuse, is there an exclusive thing that you could give us that you've never said anywhere else? Do you know what I mean? That could make us go, I don't know, viral? I might have said it somewhere else, but I'm going to say it because I think it could be clippable.

1:11:02That's what you're looking for. Great news.

1:11:06I once made a porn film. True. you were in it well I mean I've given you I've given you your pull out clip if you we can dig into the reality of it if you want yeah you're happy to dig into the truth of it but no I did make a porn film I wasn't the star of it right I was the director and cinematographer right and we talked about LA the first time I went to LA the first time I went to LA was to interview porn stars

1:11:37Romesh Ranganathan:right Sky TV had got hold of some outtakes and bloopers from porn films. And they thought, we can get two shows out of this. And it was called Porn Crackers. And you know how there'd be shows where it'd be like a clip of... That's a great title, by the way. It's a good title. But you know how it'd be a clip of sort of, you know, David Jason can't get through the door on Only Four Sources. And someone goes, you plonker, or whatever. And it's a great clip. And this was basically porn stars, but one of them going, that's the wrong hole, or whatever it was. And they were, hey! you know and they thought they thought we can we can string this into a two out two episodes right and so they had a tv host but they needed someone to go out and report from la yeah and i knew someone on the production team and i hadn't really done anything i was doing a bit of stand-up and so i i landed the gig and so i went out and i interviewed various porn stars and i was at the home of this porn star couple who i don't remember the names of but i remember she was a poor star and he was a former NASA scientist.

1:12:38Don't know how they'd met. Don't know what social mixer that was. But they... I was interviewing them and at one point they just sort of got misty because they used to... They had cameras in their rooms in their house. So they would look at the watch and they'd go oh, it's the five o 'clock show and they'd have to do something. So they disappeared upstairs and I thought, well, am I supposed to... I mean, what do I do? I'm just sort of sat in their living room. You don't want to sort of start rummaging around to make a cup of tea in a porn star's house. You don't know what you're going to find in the cupboard or whatever.

1:13:08So I'm just sort of sat there and eventually the husband appears and he goes, all right, you coming up? And I went, all right. I didn't want to be impolite. So I went up and he was filming her and she was on the bed, you know, getting pretty fruity. And then he gave me the camera and he went, I'm going to join in. And he jumped on the bed and now I'm holding the camera, filming them. I'm a pornographer now. I'm in LA become a pornographer that's how you slip into it that's how it starts you're just a kid from Bristol you're trying to make it in the show business you know and you take a couple of wrong turns and now you're making porn and I was thinking what do people want to see and I was zooming in now I need to go widescreen again I mean I don't know what the fans thought but you know but and that's the only time I've done it but you know if anyone's out there and they need like I said I'd like to make an action movie I'd like to do a lot of different things no I think

1:14:11Romesh Ranganathan:yeah I think it could be in your future yeah please can we give it up for Stephen Merchant thank you so much thank you Romer if you've enjoyed this episode of the Romer Schwang and Aethan show make sure you follow wherever you get your podcasts Apple, Spotify YouTube all the big ones and you can enjoy more great content like this and in fact I'd go further to say even if you didn't enjoyed this episode, just follow anyway for shits and giggles. And on the Thursday episode, we're going to be taking questions from viewers and listeners. Oh. So that's exciting, isn't it? It's interesting. Yeah. And if you've got an interesting story or a question for my mum and I, or even like a family dilemma you'd like us to help you with, please do get in touch via our email address podcast at rangaby.com, or you can voice note or text on this number 07731 6233 55.

1:14:58Romesh Ranganathan:I'm Ramesh Ranganathan and this has been the Ramesh Ranganathan Show. What a narcissist. See you next time. Oh, shut up, Ramesh. Legally, we can't say drinking Storm makes you smarter and more focused. But with zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine and immunity support, you're smarter and more focused for drinking Storm. Storm, good energy in, good energy out. Energy for life. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for$15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

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