Tim Minchin: How I Wrote Matilda the Musical! Quitting Social Media & Imposter Syndrome!

0:00We'll call it a love song but it will just be a handy in the loose. Just get a slightly tedious over-talking AI to do the whole fucking podcast Tim we got some

0:13Were you one of the judges I think? I didn't place but I don't want to go on about it Were you in it? I was in it yeah Where did you come? Well I didn't You didn't place No I thought I was going to Yeah well you should have taken the hint You've had a shit career since then Hi I'm Tim Minchin I'm that guy and I am appearing in audio and visual form on the Ramesh Ranganathan show. I hope I haven't fucked up that name.

0:47It's the Ramesh Ranganathan show. Oh, shut up, Ramesh. I'm mostly here for you, darling. Thank you. I want to make your podcast successful. Thank you. That's my true goal. I didn't even know that's always been my goal since I was a kid it was this intangible thing I was like what is that feeling and it's only recently I've realised it's to make Romesh's podcast that's been what this has all been about oh thank you that feels really good are we recording or what this is absolutely amazing Tim Minchin everybody all right should we cross legs oh yeah I'm up for it yeah how are you Good, yeah. Yeah, I did a couple of...

1:33I'm so... Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Yo, sub! Hey! Yeah, man! So you're not hearing me anymore? You've still got fantastic vision. By the way, this is brand new shit, I was told. It is! I'm so sorry about this, Tim.

2:06why do we need two microphones tell me when this gets weird i'm cool with it so thanks for coming on man thank you so good to have you it's a pleasure yeah i like it though it's good it's good um content okay we're on are we good okay i like your glasses do you honestly really good my dog's chewed yeah i like that's what i like about yeah could you tell yeah just from the way they were sitting on my face yeah it was like someone's chewed the left arm there left from your point of view are you good it's so good to sit like mate i genuinely i said mate that's over i like mate i like mate um it's not hot sweetheart yeah darling It's an honor to have you on.

2:48I'm buzzing to have you on the show. Well, let's see. I mean, it's nice to start with optimism. Well, I don't mind how good this is. It's just great to have you here. Well, it's really nice to be here. So the quality of the podcast is irrelevant to me. Okay, great. Tell that to your advertisers. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, have we got a sponsor yet? Not yet. After this, you will. Oh, shit, we have. Do you know what you're going to get sponsored by? What? Microphone stand company. someone some german's gonna go send you these amazing over-engineered microphones down so i i'm gonna slightly embarrass well i don't know how embarrassing you find this sort of thing but i think you're one of the most sort of exciting minds in in modern entertainment you know in terms of what you've done and what you've turned your hand to how uh aware are you of that like do you do you because obviously i we're not on this anywhere near the same level in terms of what we've created but i suffer with crippling imposter syndrome but i can't imagine that you do have you has your success been sufficient validation for you to go do you know what i'm good uh right now sitting here yeah i feel really comfortable i like being this age i'm really happy with the tour i just did i'm really comfortable with this album coming out i don't really care yeah i don't really mind how it goes i just it's just a little offer it's not it's not but how I feel now is nothing to do with how I might feel next week.

4:14And I'm not, I'm not a really up-me-down-y guy. I wouldn't say I have mental health. I'm very lucky. I'm a happy enough guy, but, and I'm wary of the term imposter syndrome. And maybe as an offer, I can suggest you be wary of it too, because it just like, it's sort of beds in an idea that we all, I sort of, it doesn't feel very useful to me. I know exactly what the feeling is, but it's like, but we're here. And so a little bit less worrying about whether you're an imposter for me. I mean, I'm talking to myself and more like, well, you, people have bought tickets to your show. It doesn't matter how you feel, like, get up, like get, get on with it.

4:56So I've, I'm quite harsh on myself in that way. I'm like, yeah, so I feel, so all that said, when I started this tour eight weeks ago, I was a mess. imposter syndrome almost doesn't quite capture it. It's like I can't possibly be enough for the 100 ,000 people who bought tickets or whatever. I just can't be. I mean, why, how can I be, you know? And you just have to sort of suspend your disbelief and almost like, yeah. So, and to your original question about, I hold both thoughts. I can concurrently think, yeah, I'm like, it's unusual what I've done, you know? Yeah. I'm obviously, and given how little training I've had in any of the areas, I'm like, I'm obviously an unusual cat.

5:55Not everyone can write musicals and do comedy and, you know, arguably act and whatever. and at the same time just like well i'm trash you know that it's it's interesting how how they can both sit side by side i think everyone's like that and we pretend we're one or the other and we're not i know what you mean because i i feel like if you're doing this for a job i mean if i'm doing what i'm doing for a job then it could it's impossible but also on the other side of that is complete narcissism right because you believe that this should be your job that you go and do this thing that you read so i i know what you mean it's but it's but they're both imposters they're both untrue because the reason you do this job is over time you've accumulated a skill set it's a craft you could be a plumber and you'd be a good plumber yeah you're a person who articulates ideas and makes them funny reflects the human experience you accumulated those skills you have a right to just apply them you know like yeah you gotta hold that yeah no that makes sense I've actually got a present for you This This is from us at the Ramesh Ranganathan Is that a keyboard?

7:00Is that a little stylophone? Have you got one of these already? No, I want this one What do you do with it? Make noise? Yeah, if you I mean, does this work like your microphone stands? I'll turn you on If you're not careful There it is Vibrato

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8:04Visit Santander's website for more details. Thanks. That's right. Sorry, guys. I'm just going to need an hour. Imagine if Tim's next album is all stylophone. Yeah. Oh, yes.

8:27I'm trying to play When I Grow Up. I Don't Know My Own Song. There you go. That's fucking cool. Yeah, you like that? Yeah, I really like it. You don't have one? No. There you go. This is so cool. Most people haven't really liked the presence we've got. That feels like genuine. Yeah, no, this is genuine. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if I didn't like it, I'd be much more enthusiastic. He has to be like, thanks, guys. But now I'm like, yeah, no, sweet. Sweet, sweet, sweet. That's it. Thanks for having me. No, no, you're very welcome. You're very welcome. And I'm out. No, we must, if you don't mind, talk about Matilda the Musical.

9:01Happy, always, always happy. Because this is like, you've made an indelible mark, you know. It's so massive. Ben's obsessed with it, aren't you? Yeah. Sensible, sensible Ben. He is, you know it all, don't you? Well, my daughter sings like every car journey. I mean, she's not good. Yeah. But she sings every, knows every word. Yeah. And you're done with it. Well, I'm enjoying it still. How old is she? She's six. Amazing. Perfect. Perfect. Even I think it's good for the car. I usually can't listen to anything I've ever done. Did you have, I mean, I can't imagine that you were able to predict that it was going to be what it's become.

9:43My whole life is unbelievably outside the curve of the predictions I would have dared to make. But when you were in the middle of, was there a point at which you thought, I'm doing something that could be something? Like, did you, was there a specific moment or was it gradually as you're doing it? You're going, I'm working on something special here. I mean, I, my son was due in early July 2009. Sarah was seven and a half months pregnant or something. when I started working on that. I went, I better get a full draft of this out in the next six weeks. And I just did it. And there were days where I'm like staring at the piano.

10:18But when I'm on, I go pretty quick. I can write a lot. And I mean, to be honest, you don't end up where I've ended up without self-belief, not the right word, but just like, right, I'm going to bring the director and the co-writer in in six weeks and I'm going to blow their minds. I'm going to be like there, I'm going to make them cry. I'm going to make it. And so I'd do these demos and I'd be adding flutes and strings and I was just like obsessed with, because this gene, this thing we have in us that wants affirmation, it's a helpful little engine. I'm going to go so beyond their expectations.

11:00Even when I played those first demos, when I grew up to the Groucho Club to have lunch with Matthew and Chris, the director and the orchestrator and Rob the designer and Dennis and they all passed the headphones around and I played them the first demo of when I grew up and they all went that's an amazing song but where does it go and I'm like ah don't you worry it's gonna it'll go um and and so I was so excited to show them my work so somewhere in me I thought it was good work yeah but I didn't have context for what can happen or at least I guess I conceptually knew that such thing as a hit musical but it was for stratford upon avon it was for 10 weeks christmas show but i knew the caliber of dennis kelly and matthew like these are absolute guns and i remember thinking if this doesn't go to the west end it's going to be on me because everyone else is amazing so i put that pressure on myself right too and i'm but is that helpful to be yeah yeah yeah yeah for me yeah okay i'm someone who likes like uh running like i really like running and i and i find it very hard not to run so hard that like i i love the push i love the pain of it you know like the discomfort is good yeah and i like um going you know i i'm like fucking hell mention you lazy fuck like fucking do you fucking why are you sitting here like you've got a show to write you know like i do yeah that self-talk i'm not saying it's healthy but it's like i'm pretty mean on myself yeah i'm pretty demanding on myself maybe that's a bit i i do all of that like romesh you're a piece of shit but then i still yeah that's right yeah then you ring me and i say yeah you are a piece of shit man tell me again it's just a really deep spiral and then like lisa will come in and go you're talking about how you're a piece of shit yeah well that's i mean there's plenty of negative self-talk and that's a whole lot of discussion but it can be good as long as you use it as fuel.

13:02But yeah, that's a bit bleak. But when it opened in Stratford, we all stayed up for the reviews to come in, but I think we all thought that would be good. You just felt it. So you knew at that point? I knew it was going to go into town. I thought it was going into town. The first preview, I've just never been in a theatre that felt like that day, that night. It was amazing. but the idea that it would be still running in 15 years is what sort of idiot would think that's possible. Yeah, and even if you said that out loud, people are thinking, what a play. Yeah, you're an idiot. And it was running along fine but surviving on summers, surviving on summer sales and then the movie came out and it's revived it because it's just reached a whole new audience and now it's going on tour again.

13:56my kids are into singing tell me about your ages of your kids 15, 13 and 10 so the 10 year old who's your favourite? I think at the moment the 10 year old and then it just sort of depends but never the 15 year old how can it be? how can it be? does that one listen to podcasts? no it's not mine no one but with a 10 year old singing when he sung performed when I grew up at his like theater like his theater performance we went to watch my wife's crying it's like such a beautiful song um it was like it's that's one of I mean I'm just telling you it's one of our favorite moments of watching him do something is singing that song man yeah it's amazing and I do like you get habituated to it anything yeah it's a sad human condition but the fact that kids in schools in Britain you know I grew up in Perth West Australia I'm mostly self-taught.

14:50Like that, that, that I have written songs that hundreds of thousands of kids sing on their Christmas concerts and make their, I mean, it doesn't, I don't really need to do anything else. Yeah. Like for my soul. Yeah. Ben, you've got a bit of a weird thing about Miss Honey, haven't you? I told you that. It's more of a concept. There's something about the energy of Miss Honey that does something to you, right? Well, Poppy thinks I prefer her to my wife. That's my daughter thinks that, but there's that. Why does she think that though? What's the evidence? I think that you know the bit where she found a magazine and it's just Ben's drawing oh god we found Miss Daddy's Miss Honey scrapbook you know that bit where it's like it isn't much it is enough for me there's something about that it's quite pleasing what does that mean?

15:45yeah I love it you're so good with your words Ben quite pleasing four stars no but like in a what do you know i i do know what you mean sort of like tingly yeah like almost asmr like yeah it's an unusual phrase and it's a it's a lovely idea i think and and um i think what's interesting about that song is it sounds like a firstly it's a metaphor the house is her she's saying i all i need is to protect myself, to stay small, to keep this small but stubborn fire burning, which is just her survival instinct. And that's okay because she's been so horribly, she's had such a horrible childhood. And she's, and it sounds like a song of, um, of power, but we, the audience are like, so that's not, that's not fair.

16:38You should, that shouldn't be the limits of your self aspiration. So when she sings, it isn't much, but it is enough for me. That sounds like a lovely, humble thing and something we should to which we should all aspire which is you know my my happiness is internal and yet we're like but that's as matilda says but she's got your house like she's you know so yeah i i like that moment very much and i like that character very much yeah um and i'm proud of the metaphor yeah and i think and well done thank you for steering us through Ben's sort of awkwardness.

17:14So can you tell us a little bit about what this album's all about then, please? Do you really want to talk about it? Yeah, I'm happy to. I mean, I want you to have a reason. I don't really want to. Yes, I don't want to feel too pluggy, but I suppose that's why we're here. Songs I wrote in my 20s that never got properly studio recorded. So in 2005, I came to Edinburgh with a show and suddenly I was a comedian and suddenly I lived in England and everything went the way it went. But prior to that, I was 30 that year. So all my 20s I spent just making stuff and acting a bit and doing all the things I do now but in Perth for free mostly.

17:51And so it took me years. I put my first studio album out in 2020 when I was 45. Even though I've been writing songs since I was 12, comedy took over. And after that album I thought, well, what about all those other songs I wrote? Like shouldn't they? So I just went into a studio about a year ago and just spent five days with my bandmates recording these songs just so I could put them out into the world. And I said to my record company, I've done these, you know, updated recordings of all these old songs. Could you just put them on Spotify? And they're like, dude, that's a record. Like, just put it out as a record.

18:27And I listened to it with that sort of filter on. I went, oh yeah, no, it is. It's a time capsule. So I called it Time Machine. and some of them are songs that my fans have known for years, but they've only ever existed in the live space. So they're on my DVDs and stuff, but I'm like, what is the studio locked-in version of that song? Yeah, yeah. How does it feel to put all of that out there? Does it feel you're subjecting it to another set of scrutiny, aren't you? Yeah. I just don't care. Like, I really care about my work, but I have definitely the part of it's like getting off social media and just it's been a long time since I read a review or anyone's opinion of me and it's really, really good for me.

19:14Partly this album particularly, it's just like here's some songs I don't need. I feel like I co-wrote and starred in and produced a TV show a few years ago called Upright and I'm so proud of it and I think it's really good and it took a huge amount of work and any chance I can get like now I'll be like, why haven't you watched Upright, you idiots? It's fantastic. I feel that about Groundhog Day. That should be on the West End and it's a travesty that it's not. I'm furious with passion about some things. Other things I'm like, here's a little offer. Here's something. Here's my book. I don't need everyone to read it and I have no interest in criticism of it or someone trying to put it in the context of the canon or culture.

20:03I'm just like, cool, cool, cool. You do what you want with it. And this album's in that offer category. Oh, here's an offer. Do you feel like opinions are a bit of a pollutant to what you're doing in a way? Well, it depends. At some point, it's helpful to listen to someone. I mean, certainly in the things where I'm a collaborator and something like Matilda or Groundhog Day, if I'm writing a musical, obviously, Matthew Warchus, who directed those projects and who I have huge respect for, he'll be like, yeah, that's good. But have you thought about, you know, this or maybe, and I'm like thirsty for that.

20:45So it's not that I don't want feedback. It's that over the years, and I wonder what you think about this, it gets harder to know who to listen to. Partly, if I may show my hubristic side, there's not many. I mean, you know my live gigs. No one does it like me. I don't know who I should listen to about my live gigs. It's very much my thing. What you do is unique. Yeah, I think it has become. I always say I'm not for everyone. Nothing's for everyone. But if you come to one of my gigs, you're not going to go to a gig the next week and go, oh, it's a bit like Tim's gig. Yeah. It's very much just a manifestation.

21:22Is that an accident? That's a good question. I mean, I am very driven to make sure I'm not following. I'm not someone who ever went, I want to be that sort of musician. I'm like, I'll do my thing. And I know that, of course, I'm built of influences, but I don't identify what they are. Um, I didn't aspire to be like anyone. I just aspired to tell my stories, got more confident over time. And now I'm very confident that what I want to do on stage is what I want to do on stage. And the mixture between comedy and pathos, the mixture between heart and head, the mixture, the pace at which I do them, the, the tonal, absolute rollercoaster of my shows.

22:07It's like absolutely stupid song from the past. Here's one I wrote about, you know, wanting to die. And like, it's like, I don't know who I'd ask about that now. And certainly what I don't need is to read a review. And as far as I know of this last tour, I've heard that the reviews are very good. But even now it's over, I'm not going to read them because even if it's a five star review, that just sort of says, it just gets in my head. And I don't know why that person should get in my head, even though there are some very, very intelligent and good and kind and thoughtful and respectful critics out there yeah not all of them but some of them i just don't know why that would be the person i go to yeah so do you how do you feel do you feel like you still want i used to ask friends who i knew were could be harsh i might hit me yeah and i would and i would it would hurt but i'd be like yep yep yeah um and i i admit I don't do that anymore, but I kind of know what I am now.

23:06Or maybe I'm just turning into a protected narcissist. But I'm almost dead, so it doesn't fucking matter. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I'm so close to dumb. Yeah, no, I know. I feel sort of similar. Maybe I might have a lump. Yeah. Who gives a shit about a person on stage? Do you have people that you trust? I mean, I'm happy to give you notes. I'd love that. I'd love that. Or songs? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I just don't, I've come to think that reviews, social media, I feel like positive stuff is as damaging as negative stuff. Yes. I really do believe that. And so I think that I just think it's better to disconnect from all of that.

23:52And have you done that successfully? Yes, to a degree. but sometimes like if you put a new thing out there and you're there's part of me that's slightly shitting myself that this is that i've done i've made a crap do you know what i mean and and then yeah done a poo yeah how old are you 47 yeah right so we're similar yeah i i i totally agree and this tour is my first tour post i i i stopped social media two years ago almost um not quite don't ever look at it or anything no i don't look at it i i i maybe once or twice a week i have a sneak at my old personal facebook page just to see what my friends are doing and i did fall off the wagon actually a couple of weeks ago and looked at my public facebook page i haven't seen it for so long i'm like because i pay people to i'm involved in it so you you do you are still you are still on social yeah i mean this is privilege right i the people in order to mimic me being on there i pay like all these people like i've got my web person and my my design person and my sister, who's my, my assistant and my manager, everyone's like, right, we're going to post about this show.

24:57So Tim provide a photo and some copy. So I've got this WhatsApp thread with all these people on it. And I, I provide photos or some, one of my bandmates do and they go, and then I go, thanks so much, Nottingham. So I'm doing it, but I'm so aware of the toxicity of my addiction to Instagram. I don't know my password. I can't look at it. And so I, I have this huge mechanism by which all I'm doing is posting on social media, but I never have the downside, which is a reading about myself, which is 99.99 % positive. Yeah. And none of that's any good. No, it's not good for you. You end up just habituating to looking for someone hating you so you can have a tantrum.

25:38And, and yeah, so, and, and the other thing is of course the algorithm sends you a cat and suddenly you're watching a cat and then you're watching a funny wife scare her husband and then you're watching and you're like why don't why i have no agency over what's going into my brain yeah i'm just doing this thing and i i it's the best thing i've ever done but it has taken a lot of infrastructure yeah but i was going to say this tour i've just done for you know like up until 2010 you do a show and you go to the pub and that'd be it and maybe someone walk up to you and go, I was there, it was amazing, or I was there, it was fine.

26:14For the last 12, 15 years, we've all been like, you do your job, stand on stage, do your bit, they clap and holler and whatever, and that should be the end of the exchange. We go back into our dressing room, and they still love me, I'm getting more love, I can't possibly get enough of this love until you're covered in. It's disgusting. So this is the first time I've done a tour in years where I get off stage and I'm like, okay, I guess that's that then. I had to get used to that silence. I did the show. They clapped. It's done, mate. Just read a book or sit on your tour bus and eat a bit of chicken like I do and have a little wine and then read and go to sleep.

26:56How has that felt? Good. It's really good, but it took a moment. Unsettling at first, yeah. It's just tumbleweeds. Where is all my affirmation upon affirmation? We are bottomless. I agree. And also the other thing is that I think when you come off stage, what is said to you in the 10 minutes after you come off stage could determine how the next week goes. You're so vulnerable. And so then the idea that you just plug into a thing and then mainline, yeah, it's mad. I think, you know, we're in this situation where we're like, it's hard. We've got all this love. I'm addicted to the love. But like my social media is for branding.

27:34It is the product of me. I want people to have my work. And I like connecting to them over my work. It is not an insight into my home or my real life. I don't have to post ugly photos of myself. That is not what that's for. I've just made that choice. I don't think it's boring or brandy. What I mean is it's to show people that I'm working. But does it post, do you put captions? Do you write the captions? I do. I write the copy. So it is, you are getting timid. You're not getting. Oh, no, no, no, no. Sorry. Yeah. What I mean is it's, it's my work and my work, by the way, is incredibly personal.

28:05Yeah. And my work is the job of reflecting the human experience through various media. Yeah, yeah. I write songs that I hope touch people and I write songs that I hope stimulate thought and I make TV shows that I hope reflect what it is to be a man or a person. And I write musicals where I try to put people in the shoes of people who are nothing like me. Yeah. And that's my job. and I think that's enough to give them. Yes, you don't have to give more than that. I don't think so. And one wonders why I would feel compelled to. Like, oh, you love me for my songs. Now I want you to love me for my what?

28:46For my guts, for my shit smell. How much love do I need? It's just been so good for me to let that be media. It's social media, it's media. It's not live. I think I'm going to do that.

29:28We've got a question for my mum. here for you Tim she voice notes in a question yes I have your t-shirt