Harry and Meghan Down Under

23:13Oh, it's so funny. Whenever you sort of ask about this or ask around, it seems like people imply the palace just shrugs and rolls their eyes. But the truth is, of course, they're watching carefully because, again, this did look a lot like a royal tour and they didn't sort of hit any of the landmines they could have in terms of diplomatic issues or meeting with officials, et cetera. But there was an interesting thing that happened. I actually broke this story while they were there. So Meghan ducked off to film MasterChef. I'm sure most people would be familiar, very popular cooking series. She ducked off to film MasterChef one day while Harry was in Canberra and the promo for that dropped later that same day.

23:48Now, sources close to Meghan told me that she and her team were very annoyed and very frustrated by that promo because apparently there had been a lot of conversation in the lead-up to her doing this appearance from her team saying we don't want the word royalty or royal in there. Now, they filmed this promo while she was out, her and whoever was with her was outside the doors, so she's done this big entrance after the introduction has been set on camera by one of the judges, which introduced her as a kitchen royalty. So in this moment, so apparently when they saw the promo, they realised for the first time that word had been used.

24:22It's very interesting they were this frustrated by it though because they're using their titles. She's just released candles with Prince Archie and Princess Lillibut. I don't know why this is where the line was drawn, but I have to think that because of this level of outcry from them, and this is sources, as I say, sources said they're very frustrated about it. I have to think that that is because there was a real awareness of not irritating the palace in this way because it does feel like possibly they were trying to be very careful to avoid inflaming any of the tensions there. We know that Harry has been working very strongly towards reconciliation with his father in particular.

24:57I think that they're probably trying not to poke the bear too much in that way. But that was a very interesting thing that unfolded because, again, as I say, it was weird that that is where the line was drawn when in so many other ways you could say that they're commercialising their royal ties. But apparently royalty was the word that really tipped it over the edge while they were there. Well, I guess that was what sunk Sussex Royal, wasn't it, was the fact that it had the word royal in it. So maybe that's what – but then it does, I think, to audiences, there isn't a huge distinction between them being described as royals, which, you know, they are still royals.

25:27They are royals. Exactly. Yeah, Meghan's a princess and, you know, she doesn't use the princess title because she'd have to call herself Princess Harry, which would take some of the sheen off it I think. Yeah it's interesting because exactly as you say they are royal. I mean even if you hate them the technical fact is they are royal that's a fact so it's and again because they're commercializing other aspects of that it just felt interesting that that was the point at which they stopped so yes I it was that was very intriguing to me when that unfolded while they were in Australia. Yeah indeed well listen Bronte thank you so much for joining me.

26:02Thank you for having me. And on that note, I'm going to take a quick break, but please remember to rate and review The Royal Report on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your favourite shows. And of course, we're also on YouTube now. So if you're watching there, don't forget to like and subscribe. And when I'm back, Prince Harry has lots of views on Trump's policy in Ukraine.

26:27Welcome back to the show. Prince Harry's turned up completely unexpectedly in Ukraine. In Kiev, where he's been speaking at a security conference, and he did not mince his words. He suggested that Russia may have committed genocide in Ukraine by kidnapping Ukrainian children, taking them away from their families and embedding them with Russian families, trying to strip them basically of their culture and their heritage as Ukrainians. But he didn't stop there. He went further and he called out United States foreign policy in particular. And the specific thing he said was he referenced this argument that's often made by others, has been made many times before by people who want America to underwrite Ukrainian security.

27:09And the argument goes that when the Soviet Union collapsed in the 90s, Ukraine had like loads of these Soviet nuclear weapons within their borders. And they gave them up at the request of America, at the request of Britain, at the request of Europe. And they didn't want to because they were worried about Russian aggression. But they were kind of told they had to. And so they agreed to on the basis that the West, and in particular America, would give them a security guarantee. So in other words, don't worry about Russia. If Russia get difficult with you, we'll help you out. Now, this is referenced all the time by people who kind of debate these subjects on a regular basis.

27:43But this is the first time, as far as I'm aware, that a royal family member has actually doubled down on those agreements, States back to 1994 and said that America basically must support Ukraine because of that. And the reason it's so controversial is because it's basically directly contradicting Donald Trump's foreign policy. Donald Trump's position, you know, outlined in the White House, in the Oval Office to Zelensky, you know, backed by J.D. Vance, said, you know, you should thank us. You know, you just say thank you. And Trump basically saying, you know, we don't want this war to continue, you have to settle it on our terms.

28:20And if you don't, you're not going to have a country anymore. It was basically America's way of saying that all the military support we've given you is kind of charity. You should be grateful for it. And we don't want to do it anymore. And we need this war to end. And so you have to just accept the deal that we impose on you, which is the deal that Putin is willing to accept. And Putin was obviously willing to accept it because it was massively favorable to Russia. So why has Harry done this? Well, partly he's done it because he does have longstanding contacts in Ukraine through the Invictus Games.

28:56Partly, I think he's done it because he genuinely does disagree with Trump's foreign policy. I think he knows perfectly well that this is quite controversial, potentially. But I'm also viewing this substantially through the prism of, you know, Harry is losing interest in America. Like, when was the last time we saw Harry anywhere near so exercised about anything American, right? He's massively lost interest in America. Probably, it's no coincidence, since Trump came to power. And it kind of feels like this, like he is putting forward the British perspective here. So he is risking his American dream, his American life, because Trump has kind of insinuated he could be deported in the past.

29:42He's risking his whole American life in order to bang the drum for the European perspective on the Russia-Ukraine war. And so what that tells us, partly, is Trump, you know, Harry is not afraid of angering Trump anymore, which actually I think he really was. In the run up to the election that Trump won, Harry and Meghan didn't campaign against him. And they did campaign against him effectively in 2020. They tried to kind of mask it in neutral sounding language about urging Americans to vote. But it was very clear that they were urging to vote the Americans who were going to vote against Trump.

30:19And so they didn't do that in 2024. And what that indicated was a fear of Trump, I think, that if Trump got elected, Trump could basically just tear up Harry's visa. Harry would be forced out of America. Harry would have to relocate the whole American dream. The Montecito dream would be shattered. And so the Sussexes kind of stayed in their bunker. They, you know, kept their helmets on, stayed in their bunker and their bulletproof vests. And they just basically cowered down to wait to see what would happen. Trump won. And since then, Harry has been finding it clearly more and more difficult not to tell the world what he really thinks about America's president.

30:58but there have been signs that that position has been fraying over the past year when he's had to kind of see it all play out, see what Trump does and so there have been all these moments when he's kind of couldn't help but have a swipe at Trump on the Stephen Colbert show and in other moments he's basically indicated the strength of his feeling but this is the most direct assault on Trump policy that Harry has launched to date including during the first term, including pre the re-election of Trump. And he's done it right on the eve of his father's state visit to America. So Charles is preparing to jump on a plane, come to the US, and basically give Trump a massive PR boost, going to DC, speaking to Congress, going to New York, crucially also going to Virginia, which has been in the news recently in relation to the upcoming midterm elections.

31:57And Charles will be going physically on the ground to Virginia, this place, that is going to clearly be a key battleground in the midterms, not least because of all the redistricting debates and the debates about election maps that have been happening in America. So what happens now? Has Harry kicked the bear, basically kicked the sleeping bear, stirred the hornet's nest? Will Trump get angry? we'll just have to wait and see. It's possible. I mean, Trump will, it's highly likely Trump might well be asked at some point at a press conference about Harry, particularly because he's got King Charles in town.

32:34The palace could try and get ahead of it and say something to the White House team and say, look, you know, as well you know, Harry's a free agent now. He doesn't do what we tell him. And so, you know, he's made these comments, it's nothing to do with the King, but the king would really appreciate it if we kept the atmosphere happy and didn't get dragged into controversy during the state visit. And Trump might well go along with that if asked by the palace. So they still have time to get ahead of this and try to get in there before it all blows up, which it might well do. I mean, he used to say it won't.

33:07But before we go on any further, I do actually want to read just a couple of passages from Harry's speech. For what it's worth, I actually kind of agree with Harry. I think he's right. I think that Ukraine, you know, If Ukraine had nuclear weapons, let's be honest, Russia would not have invaded. But equally, does anybody really, you know, the whole reason why Ukraine was forced to give them up was to stop the proliferation of nukes. Like you don't really want two neighbours, both with nukes who hate each other. I mean, we've already got India and Pakistan who fall into that category. Nobody wants that to add more countries and more conflicts to the list.

33:41So this is the most important part of the speech. And Harry says the United States has a singular role in this story. Not only because of its power, but because when Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons, America was part of the assurance that Ukraine's sovereignty and borders would be respected. This is a moment for American leadership. Note that use of the word leadership. That is very clearly referring to the foreign policy leadership, i.e. the president and potentially secretary of state. And of course, you've got to think the vice president because he gets involved in these things too. A moment for America to show that it can honour its international treaty obligations, not out of charity, another key phrase, because that was the narrative, that was the discourse in the White House, that Trump and Vance were basically saying to Zelensky, you're a charity case.

34:28We've been helping you out of the goodness of our hearts, and you need to thank us and not take it for granted. And Harry's saying it is not out of charity, but out of its enduring role in global security and strategic security. And then Harry says, respect. He throws that word out, lets it hang. Ukraine has earned the respect of the world. And that is another key passage of the speech, because obviously that was the big debate and discussion after the kind of the ambush in the White House. The world, you know, or Europe anyway, felt that Trump had massively disrespected Zelensky and Europe was aghast and felt that Zelensky was the hero.

35:09And certainly the Biden administration treated Zelensky as a hero and that J.D. Vance and Trump had massively disrespected him in front of the world's media. So that is quite deliberately controversial, but also Ukraine has dropped massively down the hierarchy list, not only in the White House, but also in the media. And part of the reason why Harry, I think, did this trip, made this trip, is to try to put Ukraine back on the map, back into people's mouths, back onto the policy agenda, and to try to get people to refocus away from Iran and think a bit more about Ukraine. So let's talk a little bit more about this nuclear deal because Harry does mention it again.

35:53And Harry loves to be just fake enough that it's difficult for people to really know for sure how big a swipe he's taking at Trump. But potentially, you know, there is some quite controversial language in here. So Harry's talk, he starts off talking slightly more generally here. This is not in the passage where he's mentioned America. He, at this point in the speech, has not actually mentioned America directly yet. But he says that, you know, the war is not an accident, not a misunderstanding, nor the inevitable fog of conflict is the product of sustained, deliberate policy planned, executed and defended at the highest levels.

36:29It begins with the violation of the Budapest Memorandum. This is the nuclear deal. He says it's an agreement under which Ukraine relinquished the world's third largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for binding assurances of its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Those assurances were not just broken, they were discarded. And when commitments of that magnitude are violated, the damage does not stop at Ukraine's borders. It strikes at the credibility of every international guarantee, every non-proliferation effort and every promise made between nations. So what's he saying? Is he saying that Russia broke the Budapest man ransom because they were a signatory to it?

37:06Well, yes, that probably is what he's saying. But is he also saying that America breached it? You know, is the language here? Assurances were not just broken, they were discarded. When commitments of that magnitude are violated, the damage does not stop at Ukraine's borders. Is that aimed at America? It's kind of vague. He doesn't actually say that he's talking about Russia explicitly within those sentences. It's to be inferred. it could relate to America, in which case that is really upping the ante in terms of the language that he's using. One thing that might soften the impact of all of this is that obviously people don't hang off every word that Harry says anymore.

37:42They kind of did in the first couple of years since Harry and Meghan moved to America. And certainly, you know, those early days of their post-royal lives, everybody was chomping at the bit to listen to absolutely everything Harry and Meghan said, because the simple existence of their new professional lives in America was the story. It was a case of what will Harry and Meghan do in America? So every time they open their mouths about anything, we all jumped on it. It's not quite like that anymore. But the strength of the language will probably push this up the news agenda, certainly in Britain.

38:15It's just a question of whether Trump has too much on his plate with Iran to care about a kind of exiled royal talking about a conflict he wished didn't exist anymore. But what about the king? You know, I've said that the palace can kind of get ahead of it and try and speak to the White House team and speak to Trump in advance and just say, you know, ignore this. That's the thing to do, which is probably, you know, what their position would be, I would imagine. But what if Trump brings it up in person in front of the king? I think the king is going to have to kind of war game, whether in his own mind or actually with his PR team.

38:46He's going to have to war game what he will do if he's in a public environment where Trump can be heard and Trump starts talking about how much he hates Harry and how terrible Harry is and how terrible Zelensky is and how much Harry shouldn't have commented on the whole thing. Because that is something that Trump can do. And he can even do it to people he likes because he did that to Keir Starmer at a point when they were still getting on. Obviously, now Trump hates Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister. But Trump visited Scotland. When would that have been? I think it was ahead of the first state visit.

39:19So that was probably summer of 2025. Visited Scotland, saw Keir Starmer. They were still getting on very well. But Trump hated Sadiq Khan, the London mayor, at that time. And so he sat there in front of Keir Starmer. Starmer and Khan are both Labour politicians, so they're both the same political party. And Trump sat there and badmouthed Sadiq Khan over and over again, showing the world how weak Starmer was, because he just sat there and kind of rather tentatively said, well, he's actually a friend of mine, you know, but didn't dare to contradict really properly anything Trump was saying. So what happens if Trump does the same thing to Charles and just sits there and badmouths Harry in front of Charles?

39:58Will Charles, sorry, the king, have the bravery to step in and say, well, you know, I may not actually agree with everything Harry says and does, but he is still my son. And to be honest, I would rather you didn't speak about him that way. it would be a complete catastrophe if Trump did that because there's no right way to respond to that you stand up for Harry, you risk shattering the whole purpose of the visit is to rebuild diplomatic relations between Britain and America so you shatter that but then if you say nothing that really does look like you kind of don't care about your own flesh and blood and no matter how unpopular Harry might be in a lot of quarters, you kind of should, at the very least, say something to ask for some kind of sympathy to be taken.

40:53Now, Charles might be furious that this has happened. He might be furious that Harry said this right before he's going on a state visit. And if Trump does cause an embarrassment or a scene, Charles' feelings might be, well, Harry brought that on himself. but the point is it looks incredibly awkward and incredibly weak and it it draws out the elephant in the room which that we all know that king charles is kissing up to trump because keir starmel thinks or hopes that it will create a better relationship between the two countries um and so it it just highlights the extent to which the king is basically being required to kind of debase himself a little bit by you know giving trump this big fanfare and everything trump wants um Just basically in the hope of some kind of vague diplomatic payoff that we can't even really concretely define.

41:42And that may never come. So it's a real nightmare in some ways for the king if Trump cares enough. But I also think that Charles might get away with this. Because I'm not sure that Trump actually has any desire to return to the issue of Russia and Ukraine in this moment. He's just too preoccupied with Iran, too preoccupied with the Strait of Hamas. that's still an absolutely burning issue that doesn't look like it's going to be resolved. There are still conversations happening probably about whether at some point there could be boots on the ground, which would probably be a terrible idea in my personal opinion.

42:17Iran just very recently seized a tanker in the straits. So I cannot see Harry's even the slightly controversial or very, very direct language, let's put it that way, the very direct language that Harry has used will, in my view, probably not be enough to cause this to blow up big enough that it will wreck King Charles' estate visit. But who can say? All we can do really is wait to find out. There's just one more bit of the speech that I do want to read, just something to end on, which is I mentioned earlier on that Harry's basically effectively accused Russia of potentially having committed genocide, or said that some of his actions may amount to genocide.

43:05So I want to read that section. So he says, he talks about human dignity being stripped away from civilians. And he says, nowhere is this more chilling than in the treatment of Ukraine's children. The International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants for the unlawful deportation and transfer of children, acts that are not incidental to war, but central to a wider strategy. Tens of thousands of Ukrainian children have been forcibly taken from their homes. many separated from their parents who were killed, detained or simply lost in the chaos and transported into Russia or Russian-controlled territories.

43:40There they are subjected to a system designed to erase who they are, given new identities, new citizenship placed into Russian families and cut off from their language, culture and country. Obstacles are deliberately created to prevent their return. Under international law, the forcible transfer of children from one national group to another is not just a war crime. It can constitute an act of genocide when carried out with intent to destroy a people's identity. This is not collateral damage. This is not the chaos of war spilling over. This is organised, systematic, international, and designed to endure long after the fighting stops.

44:21So this is, I mean, it sounds incredibly harrowing. I have not had the chance to try to work out whether this is genuinely true, that Russia is stealing Ukrainian children. In all honesty, I don't doubt that it is. Much of Russia's conduct in the war has been appalling, and these claims are not new. Harry is not making these claims for the first time. They have been around for a while, for years, in fact. I think it's pretty much since the start of the conflict. So I don't doubt that it is an allegation with some clout behind it. let's at least put it that way. And it is horrific. And it, you know, the use of the word genocide in modern context can be controversial because we are associated with it as a desire of the meaning of the word being about a desire to kill every member of an ethnic group.

45:12And that's not quite what's being alleged here, but this is the UN definition of genocide is slightly more expansive than that. And it includes trying to erase a culture or erase a society or a nationhood, even if it It doesn't involve actually killing every single member of that group, trying to erase the culture of that group counts as genocide under the UN definition. But need to say, you know, I think that Harry is right to try and put this issue back on the agenda. It's incredibly, the war in Ukraine is incredibly important, not just for Europe's security and not just for Ukraine's security, but actually for all of global security.

45:48And Harry's attempt to push the conversation back into the focus on international institutions and international law, like if the world did go back in to the rules-based international order, we would all actually be safer. I think the destruction of the rules-based international order is extremely worrying for everybody. And, you know, it's all lighthearted and fun until it winds up on your doorstep. But there is absolutely no reason why it will never wind up on our doorsteps. Like it could happen. And so some people are criticizing Harry quite heavily for this speech, but I personally actually am not going to, just because we live in a democracy.

46:29America is a democracy, Britain is a democracy, people are entitled to comment on foreign policy in my view, and so I'm not actually going to criticise Harry for doing this. I'm going to take one more quick break, but just before I do, a reminder to follow me on X, I'm at Jack underscore Royston, and you'll find all my latest stories for Newsweek. When I'm back, the Wales family are celebrating because Prince Louis has turned eight years old.

46:56welcome back to the show prince louis is eight years old so william and kate have released this beautiful new picture of him he looks absolutely adorable but he looks so old as well he's such a big kid now um he's it's always quite interesting for me because my son is just a tiny little bit older than louis so they're kind of going through these milestones together and eight really is actually kind of quite old for a kid now eight is very firmly in back chat territory it's also So I'm really noticing with my own son that, I was actually reading about this, that they go, they hit an age where they start to seek parental approval less and seek the approval of their friends much more.

47:33And this is really happening in the playground of my son. And, you know, it means it changes the nature of the relationship, I think, between parents and children. And, you know, all new stages have their own kind of challenges and positive things. It's not like I always look forward to what's to come rather than looking back at the way things have changed. But it's a really big age, I think, where there's a step change in how the kids all interact with each other, how they interact with their parents, and the way that they kind of start self-policing each other within their friendship groups a bit more.

48:09So kind of the sad news, if it's sad, I mean, like I said, I don't like to look back anyway. but it might be the end of that kind of era of Louis being that really like kind of everything's on the table cheeky guy on the Buckingham Palace balcony full of his kind of antics and his like adorable behavior which actually you know the Trooping the Colour last year and Christmas we didn't see anywhere near as much of that I think he's much more kind of restrained in public which is totally natural and normal this is what happens to children they grow up it's not a tragedy um but maybe you know some of those royal fans who love to see him dancing or putting his hands over his ears or whatever um will have to adjust to a new version of prince louis he's just a little bit more i suppose aware of how he's perceived by kind of wider audiences outside of his kind of family cell um because that's yeah i mean it's just what happens to kids this is the nature of the business they get old they become eventually they'll all be grown-ups including my own son it's wild thought the time flies by but it's a really beautiful photo of prince louis um he's wearing like this quarter zip blue jumper it's kind of i guess woolen probably more than fleecy i think i said it was fleecy online but um he's uh you know he's still got like some gaps between his teeth so it gives him a little bit of a child look about him but he's you know he's getting bigger and bigger and it just reminds me that it's you know it things part time is passing so at least that's how it feels to me time is passing so fast that we're going to blink and george is going to be a teenager and he's going to be starting to get towards the time when he does when british school kids do something called their gcse's and then before you know it he'll be an adult you know i mean that's still quite a long way off in chronologically six years uh six odd years away but it just the time goes so fast six years ago was when Harry and Meghan quit Britain.

50:08And, you know, that period of their new lives in America still feels relatively recent to me. And it's really not anymore. But there's something weird about how time works, I think, especially as you get older and once you become a parent, that time just speeds up. And it's just so crazy to me that it feels like yesterday that Prince Louis was kind of like a proper little kid who looks like, you know, a young child, you know, before he started school. and then, you know, boom, you just blink. And all of a sudden, he's an eight-year-old boy. My son's eight years old. It's crazy. It's crazy. And we're getting closer, therefore, to that time when it's going to be a big test for the British public and the American public, I suppose, as well, on whether we are better able to handle George becoming a teenage boy than we were when William did.

51:00And it was like a free-for-all, and there were women screaming at him in the streets and stuff like that. Hopefully it's all a little more controlled this time. But whatever happens, I think it will take place less on the streets among fans in the real world. And whatever insanity is unleashed will happen more online on social media. So we'll wait and see what happens with that. And in the meantime, I hope Louis has a lovely birthday and just doesn't worry about a single thing, but just goes off with his family, with his friends, has a nice time. And that's it for this episode of The Royal Report.

51:32Be sure to join me every show when I visit the latest royal headlines, embark on some Royal deep dives and riff on all things Royal. Until next time, I'm Jack Royston. Thank you for listening and a courtesy to you all.

51:46The Royal Report with Jack Royston is a member of The Trust Project.