In short
Piers Morgan and Dave Rubin debate “wokeism” backlash, NYC/UK political direction, and immigration’s effects (including UK sharia courts and asylum/illegal “small boats”). They also argue over Israel’s Gaza war, especially claims of starvation, proportionality, and media access.
Guests
Dave Rubin (host of The Rubin Report; former TV host/commentator; discusses past “woke”/pandemic positions and later regrets; says he aims for cross-ideology debates). Piers Morgan (host of Piers Morgan Uncensored; author of Woke Is Dead; former newspaper editor; discusses interviewing style and scrutiny).
Key claims
Public tolerance for “wokeism” is collapsing (citing a UK Times survey: “wokeism” seen as a slur rising from 24% to 48%). Immigration is straining UK infrastructure; net migration in 2024 nearly a million; legal migration brings large family dependence; illegal boats must be stopped via tougher enforcement (tariffs at France’s end). On Gaza: Rubin argues Israel’s blockade/starvation is denied; Morgan argues Israel’s response is disproportionate and includes deliberate starvation; both dispute evidence and blame media access limits.
Notable examples
Sidney Sweeney’s GQ controversy; UK sharia courts (reported “80-something”); Tommy Robinson’s grooming-gang claims vs alleged defamation/contempt of court; Brigitte Macron gender bet; pandemic transmission guidance; Gaza journalists barred; UN/official reports vs Israel denials.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOWokeism and Its Influence
0:00 to 1:04
Exploring the current state and evolution of wokeism in society.
“I've tried a lot of seafood over the years, guys, and truly it's been hit or miss.”
Wokeism and Its Influence
1:55 to 2:54
Exploring the current state and evolution of wokeism in society.
“Last time I was in Miami, I was interviewing a serial killer for a crime documentary.”
Cindy Sweeney's Rising Fame
2:54 to 3:50
Discussing the impact of cancel culture on celebrities like Cindy Sweeney.
“There are a lot of people who haven't got the memo.”
Political Landscape in New York
3:50 to 6:12
Analyzing recent political dynamics and candidates in New York City.
“shifted in the last four years so there's twice as many people now think that wokeism is a slur not something as a badge of honor.”
Immigration Challenges in the UK
6:12 to 7:39
Addressing the implications of immigration policies and their effects.
“So my fear is that New York is going to become London.”
Healthcare System Strain
7:39 to 9:26
Discussing the impact of population growth on the UK's National Health Service.
“between these communities and, I guess you would say, old-fashioned British communities.”
Possible Solutions for Migration Issues
9:26 to 11:47
Exploring potential strategies to address illegal migration and its effects.
“God forbid, I don't want you to, and I'm not going to be breaking it for you.”
Debate on Tommy Robinson
11:47 to 14:01
A critical discussion about Tommy Robinson and his controversial views.
“So the French have no great allegiance to us now in terms of helping us.”
Examining Tommy Robinson's Controversial Legacy
14:01 to 17:08
Explore the complexities of Tommy Robinson's actions and public perception.
“Other people haven't scrutinized, as I have, actually his track record on stuff and what the reality is.”
The Role of Political Figures in Addressing Immigration
17:09 to 18:04
Discuss the responsibilities of elected officials in controlling immigration narratives.
“And I think it's incumbent on the elected officials.”
Show all 19 chapters
Interviewing with Integrity: Balancing Scrutiny and Fairness
18:05 to 22:34
Learn about the importance of treating guests with fairness while maintaining scrutiny.
“Like when you have like a Blazerian or Candace or some of these people.”
Reflections on Pandemic and Social Movements
22:35 to 25:38
Reflect on the lessons learned from the pandemic and the dynamics of social movements.
“I watched the Tucker thing with Megan and he talked again about how he supported the Iraq war.”
The Evolution of Political Discourse and Media
25:39 to 28:00
Discuss the current state of political discourse in the media landscape.
“So that even if I'm myself not entirely certain, you know, I do this with you.”
The Value of Fiery Debate
28:00 to 30:56
Explore the importance of passionate discussions and finding common ground in debates.
“I do like fiery, passionate debate between people who are ideologically completely possible.”
Critique of the Israeli Government
30:56 to 34:45
A critical discussion on the actions of the Israeli government and its impact on civilians.
“where we can at least agree on various points.”
Media Access and Reporting in Gaza
34:45 to 36:11
Delve into the challenges journalists face when reporting from Gaza and the implications for truth.
“And I would say it would be fairer if you'd also shown my passionate defense of Israel's right.”
Proportionality in Conflict Responses
36:34 to 42:01
An in-depth dialogue about the concept of proportionality in responses to conflict and violence.
“They're virtually all activists, not journalists.”
Complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
42:01 to 46:30
Explore the historical and emotional dimensions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
“This is how people in Northern Ireland used to talk, right?”
Debating Israeli Government Actions
47:02 to 55:14
A spirited debate on the actions and strategies of the Israeli government in the ongoing conflict.
“Hamas is not defeated, but they are heavily dismantled.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00I've tried a lot of seafood over the years, guys, and truly it's been hit or miss. You know, sometimes it looks great, but then you cook it and it just doesn't have that flavor or freshness you expect. So finding something reliable has made a huge difference. Wild Alaskan Company really changed that for me. It's the best way to receive high-quality, wild-caught seafood delivered right to your door on your schedule. The first box I got was super easy to use. Everything comes individually portioned and vacuum sealed, so there's no guesswork. I cooked that wild Alaskan sockeye salmon just in a pan with a little olive oil, salt, and pepper, and it turned out fantastic.
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1:37Piers Morgan:Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home. Piers Morgan. Play movement. Here we go. We have two interviewers, and I'm going to interview you, although you never know. You could flip it on me at any moment. So we never... Anything could happen here. Last time I was in Miami, I was interviewing a serial killer for a crime documentary. I'm getting a very similar vibe. Well, as you know... But at any moment, you might try and lunge at me. I am noted as like the serial murderer of interviewers. So no, I'm glad to see you. Obviously, we've done each other's shows many, many times.
2:13There's plenty of things we agree on, disagree on. I want to kind of dive in on everything. But first, let's talk about the book for a moment, because it's called Woke is Dead. And I was thinking it's an interesting title at this moment, because it seems to me in New York right now, woke has just come back in the most nefarious, almost final form way, the combination of kind of woke and Islamism and communism and all that stuff. And then on the other side of it, Trump has eliminated a lot of woke. So tell me about sort of where the title came from and what do you make of...
2:46Piers Morgan:Well, it's more an aspiration, if I'm honest. I make the point in the book. I don't actually think it's dead yet. I think we're going to be playing whack-a-mole with wokeism for a while yet. There are a lot of people who haven't got the memo. Mr. Mandani is one of them. But I do think the public tolerance of wokeism is massively collapsing. I mean, look at Cindy Sweeney, right? For example, as we're talking, she gave an interview to GQ. A GQ interviewer... We'll put her boobs up on B-roll. Right, right. and the GQ interviewer clearly wanted her to apologize for the jeans ad and Sidney Sweeney was having none of it what's happened to Sidney Sweeney since that attempt to cancel her over that ad she's only got infinitely more famous and more successful uh that's an example of what I mean by woke being dead two three years ago she might well have been cancelled now people are standing up going I've had enough of this and actually anybody else who stands up to it I'm going to support them whether it's through buying their albums or going to their movies or whatever i'm seeing a lot more of that in england the survey came out today actually uh reported in the times of london and it showed that the way the public in britain view wokeism has markedly shifted in the last four years so there's twice as many people now think that wokeism is a slur not something as a badge of honor.
4:01Piers Morgan:So it was 24 % thought that in 2020. Now it's 48%. Again, you're just seeing a rising tide of the way people view wokeism as now something that's more of a slur than it was something to be proud of being. What do you make of the Mamdani version of it that went from woke, like all the gender nonsense and everyone's racist and all that stuff, which I'm completely with you. The political correctness around that has largely shattered, but that now it has sort of burst forth into what its end game was, which was really socialism or Marxism, communism, whatever you want to call it. In a way, you're seeing a battle with the heart and soul of the Democrats, I think, looking at it from the outside.
4:40Piers Morgan:New York is a Democrat city. The only two candidates that could possibly have won that were both Democrats. One's a moderate, Cuomo, and one's obviously progressive, far-left, brazen socialist, Mamdani. I think a lot of it was a bad choice of candidate on the moderate side. We have the same thing in the UK. That's why Sadiq Khan keeps being elected as mayor of London because the Conservatives keep putting up absolute doofuses against him. I think you could say the same. I think Cuomo was damaged goods, shouldn't have been the candidate against him on the moderate side. The other winners for the Democrats, interestingly, that night were mainly moderates, not the progressive left.
5:13Piers Morgan:So you're seeing somebody who is dynamic. He's very charismatic. He's very dynamic. He has never run a whelk stall. Are you familiar with whelk stalls? No, but he's never run anything. So I'll go with you on that. They sell whelks. They're he's never even run one of those. It's like a joke we do in England, right? He's not even run a Welk stool. Actually, quite hard to run a Welk stool. But he's never run anything. He's never done anything, really, other than he is dynamic, he is charismatic, and he can pull people along. He's a populist wokey, right? Right. And they can carry young people with them right to the point of the reality check.
5:49Piers Morgan:I get the affordability thing. I get the fact young people are angry. They can't pay the staff. They can't get rentals and so on. Of course, I get why they gravitate to somebody who says, I'm going to sort all this out. You're going to get all this stuff for free. But we know that doesn't work. There's nowhere in the world you can point to where socialism of the kind that he is spewing actually can work. In the end, he'll just have to do what the Labour Party is now doing to people in Britain, which is they promised the earth and now they're making everybody pay the earth for it. So my fear is that New York is going to become London.
6:21Like, I'm really not. London's not as bad as you guys all think it is. I mean, every time I go, it seems worse. Now, not in terms of necessarily government control over everything, but you do have you have a huge, I would say, Islamist or jihadist problem. It seems to me that every time I go, it's more visible and more obvious. Clearly, there's some sort of cultural problem on the street. There's also a free speech issue in your country, which I want to talk about. But explain to me, if London's not as bad as we think it is, what's the disconnect there?
6:48Piers Morgan:Well, London, I always tell my American friends, to put it in context on the Islamist issue, it is true there are, I think, 80-something Sharia courts have been reported to exist in the UK. So you have courts that exist? Yeah, but they're not legally binding outside of their own communities, right? Sure. But it's not something people feel comfortable about because you obviously don't want rival laws being established in your own country where people in that community do not obey your own laws but abide by their own. Obviously, that's untenable. We have a lot of Muslims in Britain, most of whom are simulated extremely well and exist perfectly well with everybody else and exist very peacefully.
7:29Piers Morgan:But inevitably, the more people you have from any community, the more issues you're going to have, which are not so good. And you've seen that in certain parts of Britain now, I think, as a general sense of communities where you feel like there's a clash, ideologically, between these communities and, I guess you would say, old-fashioned British communities. And I think that's where the flashpoint has come. A lot of that is down to successive governments, conservative and left, I think having appalling issues in how they regulated immigration. And it goes back to Tony Blair in the early 2000s, actually the original problem.
8:09Piers Morgan:He opened the floodgates to Eastern Europe, actually. But then the floodgates opened everywhere. then you've got illegal migrants coming over on the southern border on these small boats from france that's become a huge problem none of them can tackle but legal migration i think net migration in 2024 was nearly a million people now to put it in context you're a country of 340 million people we're a country of just under 70 million people we're a fifth of the size of the united states and yet we are having a net migration in one year of a million people that's a huge burden to put on the infrastructure of our country.
8:45So what do you think the resolution of that is? The reason I'm not bullish on the UK in general is that I see no resolution other than what will ultimately be a violent resolution.
8:55Piers Morgan:Well, I think people are talking about civil war or something. I don't think it's going to come to that. But I do think you need to have a much tougher government-run immigration system than we have currently, both legal and illegal. The big problem with the legal migration. We were letting people in who were highly skilled and might contribute well to society, but we allowed them to bring almost unlimited dependence with them. So they were bringing huge numbers of their family with them. And this puts incredible pressure on things like the National Health Service. Well, the National Health Service, the NHS, which was the pride of the world, actually, you know, if you go and break a leg in London next time you're over, God forbid, I don't want you to, and I'm not going to be breaking it for you.
9:32Piers Morgan:But if you broke your leg in London, you would get free healthcare in a very good hospital immediately. We've got some decent hospitals here. We'll take care of you. If you twist your ankle on the way out. Hang on. I remember breaking some ribs, falling off a Segway, of all things. Can you believe how embarrassing that was? Of a Segway in Santa Monica. And all I remember is I was feeling in and out. I collapsed my lung, broke five ribs. It was horrendous. I was feeling in and out of consciousness. And all I remember is a guy in a suit with a form saying, can you pay for this? You don't get that in England.
10:03Piers Morgan:If that same thing happens in England, we treat you, Dave Rubin, we repair you and that's it so well they would have treated you either way they might have just thrown you to a different hospital right right they looked at you they were like yeah this guy looks but they what they wanted my got some cash and and that's a that's a cultural difference so we're used to the national health service at its best it's amazing but it was designed in the 50s for for a population of 50 million people we now have a population nearly 70 million so that's happened in 75 years so the infrastructure of the nhs is creaking at the seams if you start adding a million more people a year coming in, wherever they're coming from, you're going to start having huge pressure on the NHS, on the education system, on other public services.
10:43Piers Morgan:And it just, it feels like Britain to me, the real problem, it feels like it's creaking at the scene. Right. So just one more on this then. So really, like, in the most granular way, what do you do? It seems to me that no one in Europe, because the same problems that you just laid out there, Germany's having their version of it, France's having it. What do you do? I mean, And actually, if you were prime minister, what would you do? Well, it's difficult. I don't pretend for a moment it's easy. But you certainly, on the small boats issue coming in, which is, to me, is part of the problem. But it's not like the problem.
11:13Piers Morgan:Because you're getting 50 ,000, 60 ,000 people coming in illegally on the southern border. You've had 10 million come in in the Biden administration. So it's all relative. They think it might be 20 million. I mean, the numbers are just impossible. So they clearly just completely deliberately lost control of the border, it seemed to me. We've not had that. We've had successive governments trying to control it. we've got to try and do a deal i keep saying what would trump do he'd say to macron right here's the deal if you don't stop these people getting on these boats your end which is the only way to really stop it once they get out there into the english channel really there's hardly any way to stop it so you've got to stop it the french end before they get on the boats you just say right do what trump would do a thousand percent tariffs until he sort this out i suspect it would get sorted very quickly remember the backdrop of brexit and how much ill feeling that caused with the rest of Europe, with the UK coming out of the European Union.
11:59Piers Morgan:So the French have no great allegiance to us now in terms of helping us. Why would they? We're no longer part of the club. We've left the club. So it's like, screw you. You've got a problem at your end. We don't care. They're not big on helping in general. Exactly. So that's a very French response. But I would do the Trump response, right? Just tariff the hell out until they stop it. In terms of legal migration, they're beginning to get there but in terms of the assimilation of communities i think that is that's the problem that is rising down i don't think you can have a situation where you have communities operating as i say with their own sharia law courts and so on i just don't think that's going to work in a country like the uk they've got to do something about this now how you do that without inflaming a lot of tensions on both sides i don't know because the moment you've got people like tommy Robinson.
12:47Piers Morgan:So over here, he's kind of sainted. Let me tell you, I do not view him as a saint. It's like he's got a message that in certain parts of his message, he's right. In other parts, he's woefully exaggerating the situation for his own gain. And he's probably the worst possible messenger. However, when he talks about the grooming gangs in the north of England, which were horrendous and were covered up, and were all British Pakistani men doing this to young white girls he's right so there are lots of parts of what he says which i think he's right about but the idea that he's the standard bearer for kind of a solution to this which doesn't result in a violent solution i think is for the birds so what his whole history says otherwise yeah so what is it about him that you don't like i know you guys have a bit of a history and i think maybe you banned him from the show or something like that because i see him as one of the few people standing up yeah i know he wants you to see him yeah so so i'm he's incredibly disingenuous like If you talk to Tommy Robinson, I've asked him on my show now every week.
13:47Piers Morgan:I call him Bottle Job on X, right? I was like, come on, Bottle Job. You familiar with the phrase Bottle Job? It's an English phrase. It means he's got no bottle. He lost his bottle. He's got no guts, right? And there's a reason he won't come on my show, but it does everybody else's shows. Other people haven't scrutinized, as I have, actually his track record on stuff and what the reality is. Take the story he loves to tell on American Airways about the young Syrian boy who he lost a court case to. He made a documentary about this boy and about how violent he was and so on and so on. It was full of lies.
14:23Piers Morgan:The Syrian boy sued him. He won. Six-figure payout. He knows this, Tommy Robinson. His real name, by the way, is Stephen Yaxley. He's not even called Tommy Robinson. A lot of it's a facade. He sued him. and the film was a deliberate defamation because it was a breach of a court order. That's why he went to prison. He wasn't sent to prison because of a free speech argument. He was sent to prison for contempt of court because he repeated lies he'd said about this young Syrian kid, which were proven to be untrue in a court case, which is why the kid won the court case. So Tommy Robinson wants to present himself as a great freedom of speech king.
15:02Piers Morgan:And a lot of Americans lap this up because they don't actually look into the facts of it. I just urge everybody, go and study the story. Go and study the court case. Study the resolution. Study the contempt of court law in the UK. He knew what he was doing. So, look, he's a - I can't speak to that. But what I can speak to is from an American perspective, when I see someone out there who's leading these marches with your flag, who's proud of your country, who wants to address all the things that you just laid out there as problems, I see that as someone that's a good guy. I can't speak to all 10 of the things that he's done or not done.
15:35So I would say this.
15:36Piers Morgan:I think there are certain things he's right about and there are certain things he's wrong about. One thing he's not is a good guy, right? He's a convicted football thug. He's a convicted fraudster. It's not even his real name. He deliberately defamed this kid and then went to jail because he breached a contempt of court. So I don't think he's a good guy. However, on things like the grooming gang scandal, he was loudly shouting about this long before many in the mainstream media were doing so. And he was shut up and there were attempts to silence him and censor him. And he was absolutely right about that.
16:07Piers Morgan:So, you know, he's a complex character, Robinson. I would love to have him on my show. I'm sure he watches this show. Yeah, he does. He likes me. So, Tommy, if you're watching, Stephen. Well, that's good to hear. Tommy, come on. You and me, one-on-one. There's a reason you don't want to do it, because you know that I will ask tricky questions about a lot of the stuff you claim is your version of events, but we both know isn't. So, no, I don't pretend for a moment he doesn't resonate with a lot of British people, nor do I pretend for a moment there aren't certain elements to follow him who are violent right-wing thugs who just want to punch up and actually want racial lack of cohesion.
16:44Piers Morgan:But I do think that he himself is becoming a bigger and bigger figure in Britain because of the failure of successive governments to control immigration. So it's not like he's wrong about everything. He's not. Right. I don't want to spend too much time on him, but I think actually if there were other people in your country that seemingly were standing up for your country properly and dealing with these issues, then that probably – his face wouldn't be out there as much. I think that's entirely right. And I think it's incumbent on the elected officials. I say to Tommy Robinson, go and run for office.
17:16Piers Morgan:You know? Because it's interesting. Even people like Nigel Farage who now have all the traction with the Reform Party. He has no truck with Robinson. He won't take his – they're very split. So it's not like there's a sort of on the right and agreed position about this stuff. There's not. A lot of people view Robinson like I do, including Farage. But I think that it's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest to say that there are not certain things he's been absolutely right about. The grooming gang scandal was horrendous. One of the worst scandals in Britain at modern times. And he was one of the loudest people calling it out.
17:51Do you feel when you interview somebody that, so if you have some of the people on the other side of this, on the sort of more Islamist or leftist side, that you treat them in interviews with the same scrutiny that you would treat someone like Tommy Robinson?
18:05Piers Morgan:Yeah. I try and be intellectually honest. Like when you have like a Blazerian or Candace or some of these people. I go after him. I did Blazerian. I went after him, I think, in a way that I, it's interesting, I watched the Tucker interview with Nick Fuentes. is my i i won't platform for enters and he wouldn't come on um but i i accept tucker's argument well you know what just happened now he's going to say he wants to go on because you just said that okay so now they're going to clip this and that's what he's going to say then okay if you want to come on just bear in mind i will go after you about all the hateful statements you've made including your love of adolf hitler so it'll be a slightly different tone to the interview my only critique of what tucker did was i just think he gave him a bit of a free run and didn't pin him to the floor in a way that ironically Tucker did to me when we interviewed each other in the desert.
18:53Piers Morgan:Right, we played that clip. It got bizarrely hostile. Well, he was kind of tougher. I didn't mind. I liked it. I enjoyed it. I liked Tucker. But he was tougher on me and Ted Cruz than he was on Nick Fuentes and Vladimir Putin. There's a disconnect there, which I think is a valid criticism. Right, which then Megyn Kelly asked him about at the live show. He basically was like, well, go ahead and do your own interview, which is a little strange in light of how he treated you, but really said Cruz particularly. In a way, I don't tend to critique other interviews. No, I don't. You can see, it's not something I revel in real.
19:23Piers Morgan:No, because in a way, like, you can say, this is your show, your lair. You can conduct this interview any way you want to do it, right? I don't think it's really incumbent on me to tell other people how to do their interviews. Tucker has a massive audience. It's just, I did notice he was a bit tougher on me than Fuentes. So what do you make broadly of what seems to be going on with Tucker and in that space? putting aside how someone interviews somebody, just whatever is going on in that area right now. Well, it's interesting. You've got Tucker, you've got Candace Owens, you've got these, and they're sort of behemoths in the YouTube cyberspace world.
19:55Piers Morgan:They've just basically gone huge. They get a lot of people - The algorithms also seem to really like them, which is extremely interesting. They do, and they're obviously making a ton of money doing it. And I've taken on Candace a few times, not least her ridiculous campaign against Brigitte Macron, who she keeps saying is a man. I think the court case will establish she's a woman and Candice will have to end up paying loads of money. But even then, she will, I can guarantee you, twist it into some kind of Pyrrhic victory for herself, albeit she'll owe me$300 ,000, which is the current size of our bet about whether Brigitte Macron...
20:30Piers Morgan:Oh, is that right? There's an actual bet? Yeah, male or female,$300 ,000 to charity, dollars. I say that Brigitte Macron is a woman who's had three children, it's quite easy to prove she's a woman. Man, our public discourse really has I mean, it's just, it's just, you know, but you know, I interview Candace a lot. I find it incredibly, she's very bright. She's very compelling. She's a great debater, very like Tucker. Do I agree with everything they say? No. Do I think they promote what I consider conspiracy theory sometimes? Yes. The problem with just condemning all that out of hand is as the pandemic taught me and others, one person's conspiracy theory can often turn out to be actually a bit closer to the truth than the people saying conspiracy theory imagined.
21:12Piers Morgan:And we saw that a lot in the pandemic. I fell foul of it myself a few times. But you've apologized. I've apologized. Several times I've seen it. Yeah. I know. Because again, you've got to be... I mean, because I've got the tweets here. The tweets are still there. So I haven't tried to delete them or hide it. I've owned my shame. And my shame was this about the pandemic. It's not that I don't think that the vaccines worked. I think they did. I think they saved a lot of lives. But it is true that the scientific advice that was being put out... I'm not with you on that, but... Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.
21:44Piers Morgan:But the point where I absolutely conceded I was 100 % wrong, and I blame the scientists, but I learned a lesson that next time I won't be so compliant with what the scientists are saying. But there was a period quite early on with the pandemic when the science advice promoted by governments around the world was if you had the vaccine, you couldn't transmit the virus. Therefore, the presumption for the public was, well, you're going to help save lives. Because if you have it, you not only protect yourself in a way, but you're also not going to be infecting other people if you get the virus. So, you know, the grandmother at home is not going to get it from you yeah that's never right so that was that turned out to be totally untrue but in the period before it was declared untrue and in fact it made little difference to transmission whether you have the jab or not i became incredibly censorious ridiculously i look back and i just cringe at what i was saying the way i was saying it um i was too believing in what the experts were telling me that will never happen again i'll be far more questioning next time far more journalistic i think um so i i'm i'm ashamed i said yeah it's fine i got it wrong and i i leave those tweets up and people there are certain people who just literally post them every week to clicks and it's like why are you bothering i've already said i know i was wrong it shouldn't have been done like do you think some of the reason that you missed it on covid and like there's you know blm stuff that you've said that's kind of sort of i would say insane or really misguided do you think some of that is just because you came from the mainstream world so the ecosystem you were in just sort of circled around what i think is so many wrong yeah i think i think honestly it's a kind of fine line isn't it because i think that i try and sit in the center i think that whenever i've strayed too far left or right i've normally regretted it actually i think my position ideologically i don't like to be partisan i don't like to be positioned into a left or right political box about anything i try and look at things with intellectual honesty as best I can.
23:46Piers Morgan:But have I always been right? No. Have I made big mistakes? Absolutely. It was interesting. I watched the Tucker thing with Megan and he talked again about how he supported the Iraq war. I vehemently oppose the Iraq war. We've all got our wins and losses in the causes we take. I'm sure you would concede you have had too, right? So none of us is right all the time about these things. What I learned from the pandemic was it's very dangerous to be overly censorious based on information in a fast-moving health crisis or any story, BLM being another one. Those who last sued themselves to Black Lives Matter, the organisation, when George Floyd got murdered in the way he did, it was despicable and horrendous for us to watch it all happening over the eight-minute video, whatever it was, was an appalling thing.
24:33Piers Morgan:I make no bones about thinking that that was one of the worst things I've watched. And actually, yes, it should have been a moment of reflection for everybody about what we do to try and stop this happening. However, the Black Lives Matter movement that developed and the activists behind it, you know, I look at, I do think that, for example, although I was very censorious, again, about the January 6th riots, make no apology for that. I thought it was horrific what happened that day. However, where I have sympathy with those on that side is they got treated far more severely than any of the protesters beating up police officers or smashing up shopping parades and so on.
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25:11Piers Morgan:So there was a real double standard between the way that the left-wing protesters on the Black Lives Matter marches were treated to the January 6th rioters. For example, I can expose that hypocrisy quite willingly, regardless of which side I see it. So, you know, I try and look at all things as fairly as I think I can. And I try and, more importantly, I think, I get people on from all sides of the debates. So that even if I'm myself not entirely certain, you know, I do this with you. I'll get you on with somebody like Harry Sisson or wherever it may be, and I'll let you guys go at it. And actually, I sit there and my brain whirs, and I'm like, well, which one of these is actually being more persuasive to me?
25:54Piers Morgan:That's why I think my show resonates. I think in that case, it's fairly easy. I think you probably do resonate better than Mr. Siss. Come on. Although he kills it in the comments. Well, he kills it in the comments section in that everyone hates him. And if you just lay out calm things. Well, so let me ask you about that because... I'm Hannah. I've lost 75 pounds in 20 months with GLP-1s, plus diet and exercise. On Roe, I've gone from struggling to run a mile to running farther every day. You can access FDA-approved GLP-1s online. Get the support you need to reach your weight loss goals. Go to row.co slash weight to see if you qualify.
26:27I'm a paid row partner. 20 % average weight loss in one year in non-diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight-related medical condition versus 3.1 % in placebo arm. Rx only. To stay informed about serious side effects, go to row.co slash safety. I will be completely, totally honest with you. About eight months ago, I basically said to myself, I don't want to do Piers' show anymore because the way the debates go, all of the people, the screaming, the lunatics, the jank and just these awful people where you have a certain set of people largely on the right who come on that are thoughtful and can explain their ideas and wajat and all these nutbags.
27:03And I really swore it off. And then I did do it again. I did it the day after Charlie died. And I had to demolish jank the way I did with receipts. But I view it now as it's adding flame. It's just adding fuel to the fire, that nothing good is coming out of it. And in a weird way, I don't mean that as a knock to you. I mean it maybe as a knock to what the internet has become. What do you make of it? So, for example, if you ask me right now, Dave, you want to come on my show for a one-on-one interview the other way? Or even for maybe a one-person debate, which I did it with you in person in London, with that socialist, and I enjoyed that.
27:38But the other thing I think has now become something that is not helping. That's just my opinion.
27:44Piers Morgan:Yeah, no, I think it's perfectly fair criticism. And I've seen criticism of my show where people say you're the Jerry Springer of political debate because you just want people fighting all the time. It's not true, actually. I don't like it when it becomes too much of a circus. I don't like it when people shout over each other because the viewer can't really understand what's happening. I do like fiery, passionate debate between people who are ideologically completely possible. Yes, that I love. And I do like one-on-ones, and I do like just me doing an interview with one person. So I like all different times.
28:13Piers Morgan:This week alone, I've had Cristiano Ronaldo a week, right? Completely different vibe altogether. I went to Saudi Arabia and sat with two hours with Cristiano Ronaldo, the greatest football player of all time, in my opinion. Very different, obviously, to a four-person debate with Cenk Uygur or you or wherever it may be. Sometimes I think if the story, look, the Israel war with Hamas in Gaza has been an extremely toxic and divisive thing. So I think you're getting a lot of people with big followings who only on their own world to their own sort of echo chambers pump out their views and they rarely get challenged.
28:49Piers Morgan:I like to think that what my show does, it brings together people on both sides of these debates, whether it's Russia and Ukraine, whether it's Israel and Hamas, whether it's Trump, whether it's Brexit, whatever it may be, brings people together who have strong opinions and big followings so they're getting a lot of traction anyway for their views and they actually have to meet each other and and go at each other and when it gets do you think they're meeting each other well sometimes i do love it i have to say i do love it one of my favorite things is when i can get a point of agreement right because i do think that democracy demands that we try and do that i do think that a lot of people they pump themselves up and they start shouting each other they don't want to hear another view i accept that but sometimes i do get to a place where people can agree on various points and i you know it reminded me i remember talking to bill clinton when he had about a year or so crossover with vladimir putin when they became leaders around the same time and he said and the thing about dealing with putin was if you just went out uh and hammered him in public you got nowhere with him he said and we would have these big meetings him with all his team me with all my team and we go at each other really hard but we weren't really getting anywhere it was all posturing theater and eventually we throw everybody out and it'd just be me and him so it's an interesting parallel yeah i said we and we go hard on each other he's a hard guy so then we'd reach points of agreement and i said did he keep his word he went every time so this was quite interesting that clip's done gone viral quite a few times actually peter might be a very different character now but certainly it it is what i've heard from other people about him is he's extremely tough he's very ruthless he wants does what he wants for russia and so on but you can get to a point of agreement and when he shakes his hand with you that's a deal right and in a way i see that as a kind of microcosm of what i want to do with the show i want to bring people together look i want to do big one-on-one interviews i want to do interviews with two people one either side they're great as well do a lot of those but when you have the four people two on either side about a big issue i make no apologies for it getting passionate and fiery.
30:49Piers Morgan:I just hope that rather than it descending, as it sometimes does into total chaos, that actually I can calm people enough where I can try and bring them to a point where we can at least agree on various points. And then I think it serves a very valuable purpose. Do you think there's a fundamental reason, though, that the people that tend to be left leaning in these debates are the ones screaming, yelling, saying all the awful things? Can you think of one instance where someone that you brought out on the right in one of these debates was doing any of that i've been on with vinny no he gets but it's usually yeah he yells a little bit but it's like but he's doing a kind of he's a comic also but he can be but that's fundamentally different than a lot of the crazy shit that's coming yes but you see i for instance when it's you and chank for example yeah you remaining icily calm yeah uh drives him completely nuts but as a viewer I really like the dynamic of you two you might find it a little odd and unsettling to do it but as a viewer they think you've got cool hand Rubin you've got mad Chank going bonkers I love Chank I get on very well with him personally right but he I do like him actually no actually I go and have coffee with him in LA sometimes he's a charming company right but he just gets very wound up to the point his blood vessels start exploding you don't you tend to stay very calm and I think the dynamic is well I think when you tell the truth it's easy to become When you're a lying propagandist, that's what you're screaming.
32:16Piers Morgan:Obviously, you know he says exactly the same about you guys on the right. So that's what I mean about it. So if you're in the middle and you're not actually self-declared partisan, I hope you look at you both. And actually, sometimes one will win. Sometimes the other will win. Sometimes you both get a win. It's an interesting little battle to watch if you're not on the hyper-partisan side. So in that moment, when I pulled the receipt out and I read his titles back, so what's going on in your mind when you see one of those moments? is shut up and let Dave do his thing. All right, so let's get into one that I have hit you on repeatedly on Twitter.
32:51We've had our little things back and forth. And again, it's always respectful, but I want to show you one. It's a little compilation. It's about 60 seconds or so. Some of the Israel stuff.
32:59Piers Morgan:Basically waging war on a very small area of land, densely populated by 50 gazette children. And in the process, you're killing thousands and thousands of children and will continue to do so. And I have resisted, going as far as you have done, in your criticism of the Israeli government. I resist no more. I think we've reached common ground about what we view is happening and has been happening through this period of this blockade, which, frankly, is just starvation of the people there, including so many innocent young women and children. And I think that the incessant bombing and killing, and we don't know how many civilians have been shot, but he is on a daily basis.
33:42Piers Morgan:It looks like hundreds of people every day. With no apparent attention, it seems to me, to have any real plans for how this ends or what happens when it ends. How many children have you killed? Pierce, Israel is not killing children. This woman is killing children every single day. Pierce, this is a lab label you're putting on Israel. I know it's not true. No, it's not, actually. And what you're trying to do is be very weasely with your words. No, I'm not. They then moved into a three-month blockade, which to me is a criminal starvation of a pop-up. It should never have been allowed to happen.
34:14Piers Morgan:The bombardment has been utterly relentless all over Gaza. They've iterated 70 % of Gaza. I think it's completely disproportionate to what happened to Israel on September 7th. These hard lies on the Israeli government's cabinet, the way they've been talking about quite brazenly and openly about ethnic cleansing. Okay, so it's weird to even have to show that and we sit in a room together. Can I make one point about it? No, no, it's actually, I don't mind at all. I understand everything I said. But it's interesting, you've only shown my rhetoric this year from the three-month blockade onwards. No, no.
34:49Piers Morgan:And I would say it would be fairer if you'd also shown my passionate defense of Israel's right. Well, you addressed it. You addressed it there. Which I maintained for a long time, by the way, and used to get absolutely hammered by the pro-Palestinian side in a way that I've, since this year, had more hammering from the pro-Israeli side. Well, you addressed it there. That's why we put that clip in. Because there has been a shift. That's what I wanted. No question. Right. So I think that is... So first off, you acknowledge that there's been no starvation, correct? No. You don't acknowledge that?
35:21I don't acknowledge that. Well, there was starvation of the Israeli hostages, but you... Yes. So where are the videos and images of the starving Gazans?
35:29Piers Morgan:Well, I've seen a lot, but you would dismiss them all as fakes. No, I wouldn't. I mean, if you can show me one, I'll tweet it out. Okay, here's my problem with this. So the problem is all the... My number one problem with this, you can say there's no starvation. I can say there's starvation. The UN says there was starvation, but you guys don't believe a word the UN says. The other official bodies say they were starvation. You don't want to hear a word they say. Israel denies everything. And in the end, the biggest problem is Israel will not allow, to this day, international journalists into Gaza to do their jobs.
36:00Piers Morgan:And I keep asking, why is that? Because you and I can... Well, because... Hey, I'm running out to drop off a stack of letters and packages. Need anything shipped while I'm gone? Save the gas. Stamps.com lets you print postage and schedule pickups right from your desk. Sync your contacts into the address book, get detailed accounting insights, and get notified the moment your certified mail is delivered. All from my desk? All from your desk. Join the 4 million businesses using Stamps.com right now with code podcast and get your free welcome gift. Stamps.com, code podcast. Taxes and fees apply. They're virtually all activists, not journalists.
36:37No, no, I don't mean Palestinian journalists.
36:39Piers Morgan:I mean international journalists. No. I mean the internationalists. So where are the media? Let in AP, let in the BBC, let in Sky, let in NBC. Well, it's also a war zone. It's a war zone. Yeah, but they operate in war zones all over the world. But so when this all ended a few weeks ago, when Trump does this thing, where are all the thousands of starving people? I mean, we're seeing videos of restaurants that are opening up. Let the journalists in to do their job. But I mean, right now, where are they? These people have phones? How do you know? What do you mean? Do you see where they are? Of course.
37:07There are plenty of videos. What do you mean? There are plenty of videos. The media are not allowed to do their jobs, Dave.
37:11Piers Morgan:No, no, no. And I have a big problem as a former editor of a national newspaper. But the Gazans have phones and they're showing videos of... You can say that no Gazan has starved at all. That's entirely your prerogative. The reports by almost every official body say the opposite, but you don't believe them. My view is you're entitled to not believe anyone, right? It's fine. I have that thing with Meghan Markle. Didn't believe her either. It cost me my job. However, the best way to get to the truth is let journalists who are used to covering in war zones, let them go in and do their job. particularly now we have the ceasefire.
37:43Piers Morgan:So let them go in. There is a reason the Israeli government is not letting the media in. And I fear I know what it is. They are terrified about what the world will uncover. I just think that's just... Well, let them in. It's one way to find out. But there are quite literally, I think, almost two million Gazans there. They have phones. They're releasing videos now. They're at restaurants. They're out and about. Why did none of the Hamas fighters, when they're releasing the people, look hungry? A lot of them look fat. They have fresh clothes and fresh airheads. I've seen lots of images of Palestinians looking hungry.
38:13Piers Morgan:And you wouldn't dispute that 20 ,000 plus children have died, right? So whose fault is that? Because this seems to be the one that most people are annoyed at you about. Because you keep saying proportionate. That's the word that has bothered me with this. So what if someone killed your wife and your daughter and kidnapped your son and raped and pillaged your whole community and all that stuff? What would be your proportionate response to that? Well, you've got to get into the context of why I criticize what happened. I do believe the three-month blockade earlier this year was a criminal blockade.
38:42Piers Morgan:I believe it was deliberate starvation of a people, deliberately denying them food and aid. Has any other country in the history of the world been told to feed the people that are killing it? Well, if you look at the Geneva Convention, actually, well, then no other country in the world has the control that Israel has over Gaza, right? Which, again, is a whole separate issue, isn't it? Egypt could open the door. Of course it could, and it should. And it should. Nobody's annoyed at Egypt. I don't dispute that for a moment. And look, I've always supported Israel and its right to exist. And when this happened, October the 7th, one of the worst things I've ever seen.
39:13Piers Morgan:And I steadfastly supported Israel's right to defend itself. And I still do. However, I kept asking from early on, what would be a proportionate response? But who has ever been asked to have a proportionate response? So they should have murdered a thousand people and raped women. Well, let me throw it back to you. In the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict, 75 years or so. there has never been a response from either side to an atrocity by the other both sides claim the other sides committed atrocities right there's never been a response anything on this scale so we had on october the 7th 1200 people were killed we had nearly 7 000 more wounded we had 255 six people who were kidnapped including a baby including holocaust survivors absolutely horrific.
40:00Piers Morgan:But the reason I asked about proportionality, show me another moment in the 75-year conflict where the response has been to kill 60 times as many people. And where you have a government, well, hang on, let me finish, where you have a government with people like Smodrich and Ben Gavir, who begin publicly, openly talking about ethnically cleansing all the Palestinians from Gaza, about annexing the West Bank, about taking complete control of all of it, to the point that Donald Trump had to step in and say that is not happening and credit to him for doing that. Sure, but random ministers talking about what they are.
40:38No, no, no, but them talking about things is different. I mean, literally, I hear that a lot. But is there literally, can you name one Palestinian leader, either Fatah or Hamas, that isn't for a complete genocide? Is there one?
40:52Piers Morgan:That isn't for a complete genocide? Yeah, of the Israeli people. Is there one, Can you name one Palestinian leader that isn't for a complete genocide of every Jew? Well, we don't know, at least, what I think about Hamas, for example. I think Hamas are a despicable terror group. But so what would its proportional response be? Well, my point is this. You have a unique population in Gaza where half of them are under 18. There is a unique proportion of kids in this part of the world, right? So at what point do you try and find a different way to resolve this? It turned out that Donald Trump found a different way to do it, right?
41:25Piers Morgan:Donald Trump did not agree with Israel continuing to just level Gaza to the floor. He did not agree with Ben Gavir, Osmodric, saying kick all the Palestinians out. Actually, he wants to rebuild Gaza now and make it a prosperous place for Gazans to live. But he also wants a two-state solution, which I don't think Netanyahu wants in a million years. Well, I don't know that Trump wants a two-state solution. I think ultimately, if he could achieve it where you can protect the security of Israelis, he would. Because it's the only way this ever gets resolved. Yeah, I mean, I don't agree with that. Well, the Palestinians already have a state.
41:58It's called Jordan. They have a majority Palestinian population. They're ruled over in an actual apartheid by the Hashemite king. But nobody wants to talk about that.
42:06Piers Morgan:This is how people in Northern Ireland used to talk, right? On both sides, you'd have implacable positions. We can never do peace with these people. They're terrorists. They're terrorists. They'd all call— The loyalists and the IRA called themselves terrorists for seven decades, right? And eventually, you had nuclear thinking by Bill Clinton, by Tony Blair, by Senator Mitchell. and we managed to get to peace that nobody thought was achievable amongst warring people who lived amongst each other. Very similar to the Gaza-Israel border. But how many times should the Israelis offer peace? I mean, I'm sure you're well aware that Bill Clinton says his biggest failing was getting Arafat to not accept.
42:40And I think Arafat should have taken that deal.
42:43Piers Morgan:I'm completely with Bill Clinton. But again, what is a proportionate response? I don't know. So what would you demand if your wife was murdered? Well, if I'm an Israeli, here's my question. If I'm an Israeli or if I'm a Jew living out of Israel around the world, and I was in New York recently, more Jews live in New York than live in any Jewish community outside of Tel Aviv, I've read. Not much longer. Huh? Not much longer in New York. They're going to move here. But I look at it, I think, do they feel safer by what's happened or do they feel less safe? I would argue that the conduct of the way that the Israeli government has waged this war, particularly this year, has actually inflamed hatred of the Israeli government, but also by association, Israel, Israelis and Jewish people.
43:31Piers Morgan:I don't think it's made them more secure. I think it's made them less secure. So in all wars, Dave, at some point, you have to have a political solution. The only solution that seemed to be being offered by Netanyahu, Ben Gavir, Smodrich, and the others, was to raise Gaza to the floor and to expel Palestinians. Thankfully, Donald Trump sees it a different way. And I thank God that he does, because this had to end. I think you're having a disconnect between what Bibi and Trump think. I think they're completely aligned on this. I know. Netanyahu will annex West Bank tomorrow. He's been in power for 20-something years.
44:04He could have done it at any point. Notice he hasn't. Come on. But he hasn't.
44:09Piers Morgan:But it's like the argument, we haven't dropped an atomic bomb on Gaza, therefore, obviously, all's fair in love and war, right? No, but, well, there's a couple things here. I mean, first off, I don't think any country in the world has ever been asked to feed the people that are holding its hostage, right? Like, have you ever called for any other country to do that, or anyone? Has anyone ever called for that? Well, British prisoners of war in World War II were fed. Yeah. Yeah, but... What's the difference? What? Prisoners of war in World War II were fed, so what's the difference? Because they were holding hostages.
44:39They're holding their people. I mean, to me, it seems that you as a British... You as a British citizen, you as a British citizen...
44:45Piers Morgan:British people being held hostage in Nazi prisons. But you as a British citizen, if French terrorists came in and killed a thousand... Well, what the equivalent would be, it would be many more than 1 ,200. But let's say they killed 10 ,000 British people, and they took your wife and killed your daughter, would you be calling for a proportionate response? No, but then I - Or would you say, do whatever the fuck you have to do to get my wife back? You should never ask what somebody who's just lost their family would do in that situation. Obviously, they're going to be speaking from a totally different emotional perspective.
45:14Piers Morgan:Well, I'm asking you hypothetically, if they literally took your wife. Yes, but I don't think it matters what I think is the grieving father or husband of people who've just been slaughtered. Governments should be above that. They have to take a decision which takes everything into account. And the question I come back to is, Do you believe that Israel is now a safer or less safe place for Israelis and Jews than it was before? Oh, it's way safer. Is it? Oh, they're external. They're external. I mean, that's empirically true. They're external enemies from Iran to Hezbollah to the Houthis. They're basically destroyed.
45:47Piers Morgan:You know, there have been reports that for every Hamas fighter that's been killed, terrorist, I call them, for every Hamas terrorist that's been killed, they reckon they've been replaced five times of people with the same ideology. But that's like saying you can't defeat Nazis. Well, I agree. We dropped a couple of moves. I agree, and I've made that point myself. Yeah. But I do not think, in answer to the proportionate question, I'm very glad the ceasefire came when it did. I'm very glad the hostages got released. They shouldn't have been released, obviously, immediately. It should never have been taken in the first place.
46:17Piers Morgan:I'm very glad Donald Trump made this happen. I fear if he hadn't got involved in the way he did and clearly directed Netanyahu to do this, the hostages would have died. And so, you know, again, I come back to this. What was the Israeli war aim? The government said... Hey, I'm running out to drop off a stack of letters and packages. Need anything shipped while I'm gone? Save the gas. Stamps.com lets you print postage and schedule pickups right from your desk. Sync your contacts into the address book. Get detailed accounting insights and get notified the moment your certified mail is delivered. All from my desk?
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46:58Piers Morgan:Stamps.com code podcast. Taxes and fees apply. They wanted to defeat Hamas completely and they wanted to get the hostages out. Hostages are now out. Hamas is not defeated, but they are heavily dismantled. They've accepted they can no longer have power. The Arab countries around them have said they can't have power. The argument now is about whether they should give up their arms. I believe they should be compelled to do that. the unanswered question is will they do that and who's going to put the most pressure on them to do it i hope that is a concerted effort by the united states and by the arab leaders around the area who say to hamass you've got to give up your arms then then you have the opportunity in gaza for a peaceful resolution but i think israel will look but i bet a lot of israelis so what what would you what would a lot of israelis and jews in the last few months yeah who felt that I've been absolutely right in what I've said.
47:50Piers Morgan:Not all. I've met others who said the same questions you're asking me. I think they're perfectly valid questions. I'm very happy to debate them. But don't be under any illusion there aren't a lot of Israelis and Jews who agree with me that the Israeli government, which is a hard right government, Smodrich and Ben-Gavir are not just right wing. They're absolute far right headbangers. But meaning what? Meaning what? They want to ethically cleanse the Palestinian people. Come on, David. They're in the government and they haven't taken an extra inch of the West Bank. They haven't. They're not. Well, actually, that's not true.
48:23Piers Morgan:They haven't. They've been expanding settlements left, right and center. They haven't. Yes, they have. You know they have. Piers, have you been to the West Bank? You don't think there's been any expansion of settlements on the West Bank? They build apartments. They build apartments in current places. Dave, has there been an aggressive expansion of settlements in the West Bank during this war? An aggressive expansion of settlements? Of settlements in the West Bank during this war? No, 100 % not. Dave, there has been. Would you say it's a square mile? I don't know the territory. I just know there's been aggressive expansion of settlements.
48:52But that's just, I mean, Piers, that's just not true. But again, this is the problem.
48:55Piers Morgan:Okay, so here's the problem. Have you been there? Have you been there? I know people will love that on the internet. You say none of this has happened. You see everything to the point. There's nothing to see here, Gav. No, no, no, no, no, no. Israel has done no wrong. No, no, no. Have they done any wrong? I don't know how to conduct a war exactly, but I know that if... It's all my question. Has the Israeli government done anything wrong in the way they prosecuted this war? Not that I know of. Okay, so that's the thing. They're desperately trying to, in an existential war, you do what you have to do for your people, as I think is exactly what you would demand of your government.
49:28Piers Morgan:Well, except that when my government went to war in Iraq, for example, I led the campaign against it and I was proven right, right? I think it's more complicated. But that's a war across the world where there were no British people being hidden under the ground. This war didn't start on October the 7th. This is a conflict that's been around for seven decades. That's why I compare it, actually, to the war that was conducted between, say, the IRA and the British government. Well, your government did 75 years ago offer the Palestinians a state for the first time because, as you know, the Palestinians never had a state.
49:56It was the British mandate.
49:56Piers Morgan:I think the whole way it was organized at the start was deeply flawed. But I also read a very interesting piece by a guy called Jonathan Friedland. He's a Jewish journalist who said he could have written two columns about what happened in 1947, 48, 49, he said. and one would have been very pro-Israel and one would have been very pro-Palestinian and he said that as a Jewish journalist. I think it's an interesting perspective is that I've heard both sides argue passionately but the crux of the combined debate is that it was very badly handled and should have been handled a lot better. You know hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced from their homes but also hundreds of thousands of Israelis and Jewish people as they were then, but obviously became a part of Israel, were displaced from their homes in the region.
50:42Piers Morgan:So there was a lot of displacement of people's lives, uprooting of people's lives going on. And a lot of like enforced things by countries like Britain, you will do it this way. I think it could have been handled a lot better. And then a lot of the trouble could have been avoided. All right. Let's not end on this. No, no, no. I'm happy to do it. I wish we had more time. And this is why I prefer to do things face-to-face instead of with the screaming lunatics on their side. But I'm telling you that no expansions. Like if you can't even tell me they've expanded a mile, it's because you know they haven't.
51:11But I don't know the exact geography.
51:12Piers Morgan:But even a half mile. I do. Well. No, they haven't. They haven't. Here's the problem. They haven't. My final point on this. Here's the problem. When they say a settlement, that means someone built an apartment over there? You can sit there and deny all of these things to which I simply say, fine, you might be right. The Israeli government has done nothing wrong. There's been no expansion of settlements. The war has been prosecuted as the most moral army in the world going about its business. to which I simply say, let the journalists in. Let's find out. I mean, again, I don't think any army was feeding the people and dropping leaflets.
51:42Do you agree the journalists should be letting in? Well, now you could let people in. It's a little less dangerous. Let them run around with glass. You know what? But these people have phones. You know these people have phones, right?
51:51Piers Morgan:Yes, I've seen loads of footage that contradicts what you're saying. You wouldn't believe the footage. No. You just say it's fake. We'll stop the camera and then we could do it right now. I mean, if you want to bust out your phone and show me all the starving people, What I see are hordes of young men with perfectly cut hair who are in shape with clothes that fit. Come on, Dave. I mean— You don't honestly think that life for a young Palestinian kid in Gaza in the last two years has been anything but utter healthy? Well, they unfortunately elected Hamas, who then— And I don't disagree with you about a single thing you're about to say about Hamas.
52:24Piers Morgan:I agree with every word you're about to say. Let's park that to one side. I'm not denying for a moment that they are a despicable terror group. I think somebody said war is hell. It is, but ultimately you have to resolve it. And I'm very, very, oh, is that mine? Oop, they're giving us the signal. All right, all right. We got my alarm. You got your alarm. All right. That's my assistant. Beams in. Get out of there. All right, 60 seconds left. Well, this is what it's all about, right? I mean, this really is what it's all about. It's what we both do for a living. And it doesn't change my opinion of you in any way or anything else.
52:57Piers Morgan:And here's the thing. We should be able to have a spirited debate about these things, right? And I don't for a moment claim that ultimately history will prove I was completely right about everything. This is just my honestly held view, though. Don't come at it from a partisan perspective. I think if people look at my record over the entire war, for example, I've been very pro-Israel for a long time. I became increasingly critical of Israel. I've been steadfast in my hatred of all things amassed. So people can judge me accordingly. But you and I can have a spirited, fiery debate, right, without any problem.
53:26Piers Morgan:and i know at the end of this we'll shake hands yeah of course and if we see each other you come to london we go to my pub we'll have a pint whatever have a nice dinner it should never impact on that i saw john stewart said a really interesting thing last week where he was talking about you know if you've got like very obviously he's a liberal if you've got a big right wing you know headbanger of an uncle and it's thanksgiving do you snub him as a little on the left one to do it's a big thing the progressive left you don't or you know the same way that if you're a conservative should you snub some progressive left and woke member of your family most of us would prefer not to get shot at this right right no i agree with i listen i totally agree yeah um and the woke left's war on free speech it's a cornerstone in my book and culminates eventually in things like the murder of charlie kirk which is where if you try and silence debate and free speech that's what happens and if you call everybody a fascist or a nazi that's what happens so that's all covered in the book but i think what's really important the point you made was that even if you have an uncle and you're a liberal and your uncle's very right-wing that he may have other qualities like john stewart's uncle has which are incredibly great qualities why would you pillory somebody or disown somebody because one part of their makeup doesn't suit you that's where wokeism has taken us i think it's taken us to a thinking that if you don't sign up to my worldview i'm going to shame you cancel you disown you destroy you maybe ultimately try and kill you.
54:53Piers Morgan:That, as I point out to them, is the personification of fascism. And yet they would say they hate fascists more than anybody else in the world. So there's an underpinning hypocrisy that runs right to the heart of wokeism, and it's that. Fortunately, I'm not a leftist, otherwise I could have poisoned your cough. Yes. It was good to see you, my friend. Good to see you.
From the publisher
Dave Rubin of "The Rubin Report" talks to Piers Morgan about his new book Woke Is Dead and why he says the fight against woke ideology isn't over yet; why the public tolerance for wokeism is collapsing; what we can learn from the backlash against Sydney Sweeney; how woke ideology has evolved into socialism and Marxism within the Democratic Party; how London's woke politics compare to New York's; how mass migration and failed immigration policies are straining Britain's infrastructure and NHS; how he'd solve the UK's immigration crisis; why Britain must take a tougher Trump-style approach with France, using tariffs to stop illegal crossings; the need for assimilation; how Sharia courts in the UK create dangerous divisions; why he thinks Tommy Robinson is a fraudster who hides behind free speech; how he challenges guests across the political spectrum; why he is tough but fair with both conservatives like Candace Owens and leftists alike; why Tucker Carlson was wrong for going easy on Nick Fuentes; his biggest mistakes on COVID and BLM; the hypocrisy in media coverage of January 6 vs. BLM protests; why he disagrees with Dave on Israel's handling of the war with Gaza; and much more.
