In short
Gad Saad argues that “suicidal empathy” (empathy used in a way that harms society) is accelerating civilizational decline. He links it to narcissism, “epistemology of care” in academia (leading to “forbidden knowledge”), and social-media incentives that reward emotional, viral persuasion over careful cognition. He claims Canada and the UK are at “stage five” of suicidal empathy, while the US is “stage two” but “galloping” toward worse outcomes.
Guest backgrounds
Dr. Gad Saad is a long-time professor (Lebanon upbringing during civil war), author of Parasitic Mind and now Suicidal Empathy, Dying to be Kind. He’s moving to the US to teach at Ole Miss (Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom).
Key claims
Empathy can be hijacked via both cognition and emotion; universities suppress truth to avoid marginalization; social media amplifies fast emotional heuristics; political outcomes won’t fix underlying ideas.
Notable examples
Canada’s policies (open borders, welfare/socialist ethos), UK/Canada dystopian trajectory; “forbidden knowledge” example about immigrant assimilation research; social-media virality; Israel/Jews discussion with Rogan referenced; stage-based comparisons (Canada/UK stage five, US stage two).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Concept of Suicidal Empathy
0:00 to 1:04
Gad Saad introduces the term 'suicidal empathy' and its relation to societal issues.
“I've tried a lot of seafood over the years, guys, and truly it's been hit or miss.”
The Concept of Suicidal Empathy
1:07 to 2:26
Gad Saad introduces the term 'suicidal empathy' and its relation to societal issues.
“That's wildalaskan.com slash Ruben for$35 off your first order.”
The Impact of Recognition
3:04 to 4:52
Discussion on the significance of being a New York Times best-selling author.
“Most ever returning Rubin Report guest or number one New York Times?”
Understanding Suicidal Empathy
4:52 to 7:16
Gad explains the origins and implications of suicidal empathy in society.
“I've now spent more time talking than I normally do at the beginning of an interview.”
Cognitive vs. Affective Systems
7:16 to 11:34
The conversation explores the balance between cognitive and emotional responses.
“And I know he sold a ton of copies and I'm so proud of his book, but I really wanted it for the other people that I work with because I knew how good it was going to be for my editor's career and things like that.”
Emotional Responses in Society
11:34 to 14:00
The discussion covers how emotional responses dominate in today's social media landscape.
“It seems to me that almost everyone these days responds more to the emotional system or is subjected to the whims of the emotional system rather than the other, right?”
The Nature of Online Controversy
14:00 to 14:47
Exploring how extreme opinions overshadow calm responses in online discussions.
“That's why every time someone says something crazy online, it goes viral.”
Faux Empathy vs. Genuine Empathy
14:47 to 15:17
Discussing the distinction between genuine empathy and faux empathy in social issues.
“But what I kept thinking was with a lot of them, it actually wasn't suicidal empathy because it wasn't empathy.”
The Concept of Suicidal Empathy
15:17 to 18:19
Unpacking the theory of suicidal empathy and its societal implications.
“I didn't get that they were empathetic towards those people.”
Gender Dynamics in Empathy
18:19 to 20:43
Examining the gender components of empathy and its effect on social discourse.
“And now here's the optimistic and pessimistic part.”
Show all 23 chapters
Blunt Theories of Politics
20:43 to 21:41
A humorous take on gender dynamics and their impact on political discussions.
“So yes, there is definitely a component of feminization in that story.”
Transitioning to a New Role in America
21:41 to 24:19
Gad Saad discusses his move to America and new teaching position.
“We'll obviously get back to some of this, but since I mentioned it.”
Reflections on American Identity
24:19 to 28:00
Contemplating the journey of identity from childhood in Lebanon to teaching in the U.S.
“Well, I just, on a personal note, I'm just thrilled for you guys because I know how long you've wanted to figure out a way out.”
The Red-Green Alliance: A Growing Concern
28:00 to 30:59
Explore the troubling alliance between progressive ideologies and Islamist agendas.
“And so while I'm optimistic in the sense that we don't have Dearborn everywhere in the United States, if you keep the same pattern, inshallah, it will be Dearborn in the next 50 years.”
Dystopia or Opportunity: Analyzing Canada and the UK
31:00 to 33:51
Discuss the potential dystopian futures for Canada and the UK and the hope for corrective action.
“Because if you go to see your physician and God forbid he or she says, you've got stage four pancreatic cancer, you've got three weeks left to live, there's absolutely no intervention.”
The Impact of the Internet on Society
33:52 to 36:28
Examine how the internet and social media contribute to the spread of harmful ideas.
“Meaning that let's say we got social media, you know, 20-ish years ago.”
Western Civilization at a Crossroads
36:29 to 39:28
Consider the threats to Western civilization and the consequences of ignoring them.
“Or is there some bastardized version of all of that?”
The Search for Happiness Amidst Chaos
39:29 to 41:15
Delve into the challenges of maintaining happiness while addressing serious societal issues.
“Or, you know, because you always have a smile on your face and you're always happy and your disposition is, I think, cup half full.”
Complex Conversations on Current Events
41:16 to 42:00
Discuss Gad Saad's recent appearance on Joe Rogan and the complexities of addressing sensitive topics.
“And you've been on Rogan, I don't know, probably a dozen times also.”
Exploring the Complexities of the Middle East
42:00 to 45:29
Learn about the challenges of discussing the Middle East and the importance of perspective.
“So then I tell him the number, and he goes, bullshit.”
Gad Saad's Academic Journey
45:30 to 47:20
Discover Gad Saad's excitement about writing and teaching at Ole Miss.
“And there's nobody better to get the history of the Middle East from than a bunch of comics, right?”
The Value of American Citizenship
47:21 to 49:45
Gad discusses his views on American citizenship and societal appreciation.
“If you watch the first two minutes of that interview, my voice sounds different.”
The Greatness of Thomas Sowell
49:46 to 50:14
Gad reflects on the impressive body of work by Thomas Sowell and his aspirations.
“I'm thrilled that you're finally in that phase.”
Transcript
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1:13Gad Saad:There is a feature of suicidal empathy. Of course, it's very much related to narcissism. The fact that the downstream effect of this orgiastic narcissism is that my society will go to hell, that's fine. Academia should be about the epistemology of truth. Once the universities became feminized, then what took over in many cases is what's called the epistemology of care. And that's what results, by the way, in something called forbidden knowledge, right? Forbidden knowledge is the idea that if some research is going to end up hurting someone, you shouldn't be publishing those results because those people might stand the possibility of being marginalized using the nomenclature of you know stage one stage two stage three stage four that you would use for the metastasis of cancer canada is in the very very rarefied world of stage five of suicidal empathy britain is stage five united states is stage two but galloping quickly to try to make up ground and i'm not being hyperbolic it will be the end of Western civilization?
2:18Gad Saad:Because the architecture of the human mind is such that it avoids this stuff until the monster literally bites you in the ass. If we really lose this, we will all be living in communist countries and never able to say what we think and all of the horrible things that we think.
2:44Joining me today is not only the most all-time returning guest in the history of the Rubin Report, but now number one best-selling New York Times author, my friend and author of the new book, Suicidal Empathy, Dying to be Kind, Dr. Gad Sad. Gad, how was that? for an intro. Which one of those means more to you? Most ever returning Rubin Report guest or number one New York Times?
3:15Gad Saad:That's a tough one. That's a tough one. Can I be honest and say the New York Times only because I could imagine how painful it was for them to have to put it to you? That sense of existential glee might push that one more than being your most frequent guest. And that right there, my friend, is why you are my most frequent guest, because you could put a little twist on it. That was acceptable. But actually, all right, so we're going to dive into the book. And obviously, you know, I mentioned suicidal empathy, and I quote you often on the show several times per week. Elon, I think, has really made this go ubiquitous, the phrase, in some sense, even more than you have.
3:55And I mean that as a compliment. He took something that you created and has really just expanded its movement throughout language and the way that everyone understands all these issues. But let's just start with the New York Times thing for a second because I saw the video that you put up, and we can play some B-roll of it while we're talking here, when you got the call from your editor or publisher saying that you were number one. And I was a New York Times bestselling author and everyone, you want it. And yet at the same time, as you just pointed out, the New York Times is not aligned with us.
4:28They are the purveyor of so many of these horrible ideas. We know that the list is not even based in sales. The fact that you got number one clearly is because you must have so blown everything out of the water that it would have looked profoundly ridiculous. And I should note that my first book, which made it on, my second book didn't. and we should have been number one. So they gave it to you, did not give it to me second time around. I've now spent more time talking than I normally do at the beginning of an interview. How do you feel about an accolade from something that you don't respect, but it's still important in the industry and the business?
5:03That's the question.
5:04Gad Saad:You know, so no, that's a fair question. Look, I've spent, this is my 30, I'm finishing my 32nd year as a professor. And pretty much my entire career has been a story of achieving what I did despite all of the animist and, you know, hatred and obstacles, right? I'm swimming up against the current and yet achieving all the things that I am. So it is nice from a symbolic perspective when the New York Times then says, you know what, you've reached the summit, we can't deny it. And so for that, I do thank them. And I'm not trying to be frivolously diplomatic. I truly mean it, that they could have still tried to cook it.
5:50Gad Saad:They didn't. And so for me, it basically says that that's it. I have reached the summit. Is that the weird thing, though, that in some sense, we're constantly pointing out the flaws of so many of these institutions. And yet there's a part of all of us, we exist in a system and thus you want that acknowledgement of the summit, as you just mentioned. And in that, it creates a problem, I think, long-term for how we can succeed. But maybe, look, I don't know if this is an indication of how things might be changing or whether it was what you said, which is that the number of books sold was so great that they couldn't cook anything through their editorial discretion.
6:39Gad Saad:I can't, but I'd like to be optimistic and charitable and say, maybe things are changing. Maybe more people are receptive to some of the ideas that I espouse or that, you know, more generally the people on our side of the aisle espouse. And so, you know, I'm just happy to have, and I'll tell you something, it's not that I want the attaboy from New York Times. It's that it helps in selling more books to get on that list. So from a very pragmatic perspective, I would have felt cosmically cheated if it didn't happen, and thank God it didn't happen. All right. I'll leave it there. But that point, I think, is the right one in that when I wrote the first book and we knew it was coming in that Tuesday, whether we were going to find out if we were on or not, I really felt, I was like, you know, look, I know the thing is kind of fabricated and all that stuff.
7:30And I know he sold a ton of copies and I'm so proud of his book, but I really wanted it for the other people that I work with because I knew how good it was going to be for my editor's career and things like that. So you can't, so we don't exist in vacuums. I think I've pushed you far enough on this. When did you, when did you actually come up with the phrase, the notion of suicidal empathy? I know you've been talking about forever, but when did, when did the phrase kind of crystallize in your mind?
7:54Gad Saad:Yeah, so you may or may not know this, but I actually mentioned suicidal empathy in the parasitic mind. So it's been many, many years. And let me, so to answer that question. Right, what year did you write that? I mean, I interviewed you for that. Yeah, so the book came out in 2020, and I would have started writing that in around 2018. So it's many, many years now. Look, there is a one-two punch to the narrative of how parasitic mind fits with suicidal empathy. We are both a thinking and a feeling animal, right? Both our cognition matters and our affective system matters. If I wish to fully hijack or parasitize your capacity to engage in critical thinking, I have to parasitize both systems.
8:44Gad Saad:So the parasitic mind explained the story of how our cognitive system could be hijacked via these idea pathogens. And then the story is completed once I now explain how our affective system could be parasitized via the gaming of our empathy module. Did you know this was always coming in some sense? For those people, you want to recap a little bit of your life story, which you've done many times on this show and most people know. But in that, you saw so many things go haywire, whether it was growing up in Lebanon during a civil war, some of the things that you sort of referenced with your academic career and fighting against the tide and all these things.
9:29all these people that seemingly are the good guys, but are actually doing all these bad things. Do you always see this?
9:36Gad Saad:Yes. I mean, yes. And to your earlier question, when you said, you know, when were you developing the coinage of suicidal empathy? You can go back to my 2017 Canada Senate address, where both Jordan and I had appeared to talk about... Bowtie Gadzad. We'll get a picture of it. and somewhat heavier, but still very hauntful. And there I reference how, you know, in the pursuit of recognizing that people should live dignified life irrespective of their personhood, that doesn't mean that we sort of fall into the pool of orgiastic compassion and empathy. So it was very clear to me. And now I can even go back much further.
10:23Gad Saad:In psychology of advertising, we always talk about what's called the elaboration likelihood model. The elaboration likelihood model is the idea that when, let's say, an advertiser is trying to persuade you, they can either persuade you through the central root of persuasion, which is the cognitive system, or the peripheral root of persuasion, which is the affective system. If I'm trying to sell you a mutual fund, I will invoke your cognitive system. Here are the seven reasons why you should buy my mutual fund. If I'm trying to sell you a hedonic product like a perfume, I'm not going to tell you here's what Harvard physiologists think about this perfume.
11:00Gad Saad:I'm going to show you a sexy girl on a horse and I'm going to have an internationally sounding name like Mystère with her hair blowing, right? So very early in my academic career, it was clear to me that if you're trying to persuade people, you have to invoke both the cognitive and affective system. Once I started writing about how our ability to think could go haywire, I knew that I had to tackle both the parasitization of your cognitive and your emotional system. It seems to me that almost everyone these days responds more to the emotional system or is subjected to the whims of the emotional system rather than the other, right?
11:45In that social media has made everything emotional rather than fact-based, not everything, but within reason. Do you think that's a fair estimation that your argument would be that it should be something like 50-50, but is it that now it's 80-20 or something like that?
12:02Gad Saad:But it's not so much 50-50, but rather always invoking the right system. The proper one. The proper one. So it should be a hundred times firing the right way. So if I am about to take a shortcut through an alley because it saves me 20 minutes of walking home, and then I notice that there are young men that look suspicious loitering, I will get an autonomic affective response. My blood pressure will go up. I'll start breathing in a more shallow manner. That autonomic emotional response makes perfect evolutionary sense. So it perfectly worked there. If I am trying to do well on a calculus exam and I invoke my affective system rather than my cognitive system, I probably will do poorly on the exam.
12:48Gad Saad:So it's not so much that it should be 50-50 across all situations. It's the game of life is to know when to evoke which system in the right situation. Well, let me slightly edit that then. And instead of 50-50, it seems to me that we are maybe artificially using our emotional system more than we should. I think that's good. And so let me, again, frame it in sort of a professorial academic way. So a well-known and respected academic psychologist from Germany called Gerd Gigerenzer talked about fast and frugal heuristics. Fast meaning that it's a decision rule that you could quickly deploy. and frugal, meaning that it's not very effortful to deploy it.
13:37Gad Saad:Well, not surprisingly, to your point, invoking my affective system takes a lot less effort and is a lot more quickly to deploy than to try to crank up my cognitive system. So once we are in the ecosystem of social media, it's the perfectly appropriate environment for exactly what you're saying, which is emotion, emotion, emotion. Right. That's why every time someone says something crazy online, it goes viral. And then the person tries to say something calm and thoughtful in response, and it basically dies on the vine there. I'm curious what you think about this. I mentioned to you that I was on this Surrounded show where you sit in the middle and they get 20 people around you, and it was 20 far lefties versus me.
14:25And, you know, I could quite literally feel the daggers of hatred. I mean, I was having a physical, you talk about a physical reaction. I could feel daggers coming out of them. There was so much anger and hatred. And genuinely, I believe several of them, if given the opportunity, would have quite literally killed me. I kid you not. But what I kept thinking was much of their arguments were the general suicidal empathy thing. So they are for homeless people. They're for the drug addicts. They're for the illegals. All that stuff. OK, fine. But what I kept thinking was with a lot of them, it actually wasn't suicidal empathy because it wasn't empathy.
14:59It struck me as faux empathy, that there is a difference between people that genuinely their empathy is being hijacked and used against them. That's sort of suicidal empathy. But what do you think about this idea of faux empathy? These people that it's actually completely fake. They're not really feeling it at all because I just felt hatred from them. I didn't get that they were empathetic towards those people. It was filled with fakeness that then led to hatred. Yeah.
15:27Gad Saad:So very early in the book, I actually explain the theoretical framework of how I construe suicidal empathy works. And there is a feature of suicidal empathy that captures what you just said. And of course, it's very much related to narcissism, right? And so the idea is that the most important thing for me, if I'm speaking as them, is to be able to comb my luxuriant hair while looking at the reflection in the mirror of moral preening, right? So look at how good person I am, how compassionate I am. Now, the suicidal part there is that they may not be committing suicide themselves via their empathy, but they are contributing to the civilizational seppuku at the civilizational level, right?
16:20Gad Saad:Because they're basically saying, because of the need for me, my narcissistic need to look at myself in the mirror and just point to the fact that I'm a really good person, the fact that the downstream effect of this orgiastic narcissism is that my society will go to hell, that's fine. So in that sense, it is still a feature of suicidal empathy. What is your hope right now? Is your hope that we can wake enough people up that, say, from an American perspective, literally right before we went live, I saw you tweeted, I love America or something to that effect. And by the way, you are moving to America, which we should talk about as well, which is fantastic.
17:02This is something I've been trying to get you on board, or I've been trying to help you at least for 10 years trying to do this. I said you could have been my assistant, but no, you felt that was beneath you. It's a lot with you. But what is your hope that you can write this book and that the idea here will scale in a way that will wake enough people up that we will not go down this path? Is that the most simplistically obvious way to describe it?
17:25Gad Saad:Yeah, exactly. Right. I mean, look, different people have different modalities for being able to affect change. Right. I mean, Elon Musk can promote my book and therefore he's contributing in spreading my ideas, but he could also work on Neuralink that allows blind people to see. Right. So we each have a purpose and meaning. My purpose is to hopefully through my tongue and my brain and my pen to be able to convince people. Now, and that could happen in many ways, right? I could convince Elon Musk, who then has such a big platform that he could convince a lot more people via me of that. So I don't care how the mechanism happens by which we inoculate you against suicidal empathy.
18:14Gad Saad:But if I don't put it out, then there are more people that are going to be parasitized. And now here's the optimistic and pessimistic part. You ready? The problem is that oftentimes the velocity at which I could change someone's mind is slower than how quickly the monster is coming from all of us. So the optimistic part is I could flip most people. The pessimistic part is, am I able to do it quickly enough to actually autocorrect the ship? I'm not sure. Do you view a certain gender component related to all of this? You know, Jordan Peterson had talked about this for quite some time, that there are certain personality traits that women tend to have that then lean into more of this than men.
19:02but then the men sort of get hijacked because they basically want to live a quiet life with their wife and occasionally have relations and they acquiesce.
19:13Gad Saad:A hundred percent. So in the book, I actually talk about the fact that not suicidal empathy, just empathy in general, well-modulated empathy, women score higher than men. And so therefore, it's not difficult to imagine that when it comes to the dysregulation of empathy, in this case, suicidal empathy, more women than men are likely to succumb from it. But of course, it's not singularly women who will succumb from it. But I'll also mention this, let's say in my own ecosystem in the university setting, academia should be about the epistemology of truth, right? We are in the business by applying the scientific method to try to approximate some truth with a capital T.
19:57Gad Saad:Once the universities became feminized, to your point, then what took over in many cases is what's called the epistemology of care, meaning that, and that's what results, by the way, in something called forbidden knowledge, right? Forbidden knowledge is the idea that if some research is going to end up hurting someone, let's say if you find out that one group of immigrants are much less likely to assimilate in the United States than another group. While that may be technically true, therefore it adheres to the epistemology of truth, you shouldn't be publishing those results because it doesn't conform to the epistemology of care where those people might stand the possibility of being marginalized.
20:43Gad Saad:So yes, there is definitely a component of feminization in that story. Can I dumb that down for you just a little bit? Let's see if I can work blue with Gadzad. What I've been calling this basically is the blowjob theory of politics, that you pretty much, you have a certain set of women, I find this, that are very Trump deranged. And then their husbands become neutered because occasionally they would just like a blowjob and they know if they say what they think, they're not going to get it. Does that stand the scientific method? Yeah, although it is. Come on, give me something more scientific than that, man.
21:19Gad Saad:No, but to pursue your less lofty vernacular, I didn't know that blowjobs were still at play once you do get married. This is new territory. Oh, well, that should be your next book then. Or maybe that should be your wife's book, How to Deal with a New York Times Bestselling Author, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Talk to me about this. We'll obviously get back to some of this, but since I mentioned it. So you are moving to the States. You have a new teaching gig. you were very very frustrated obviously not only with with your adopted home of canada but the university you were at just play play some of that out for me yeah sure uh so actually what's what's interesting is the genesis story of how i ended up at old miss i was to your point sort of railing about something either at my university or about canada or about both and then I noticed somebody replies to the tweet, well, we'd love to have you at Ole Miss or something like that.
22:18Gad Saad:And it just happened that I noticed it because as you know, you post something and you move on and the likelihood of you ever seeing a reply is one in a million. But because it happened shortly after, I saw it. So I literally replied, I don't even know who this guy is. I say, well, send me an email or something like that. But that gentleman writes to me a day or two later saying, well, I'm so-and-so. I wrote to you on X. Can I put you in contact with the relevant person at Ole Miss? I said, please do. Wait, did he work at Ole Miss or he was just a fan that had a connection? So he actually played center for University of Alabama, but he is a Mississippian who's a big fan of Ole Miss by virtue of being from the area.
23:03Gad Saad:And so the professor that he connected me with, we have a one-hour Zoom meeting, at the end of which he says, hey, we're ready to make you an offer. So this past year, I was there as a visiting scholar. Starting this August, I will be the distinguished professor at the Declaration of Independence Center for the Study of American Freedom at Ole Miss. you can't imagine how excited I am for several reasons number one you know and I'm not trying to be cheesy I really obviously feel that that was the point of why I put I love United States because I actually I just had a consular visit earlier today and so I was all pumped up with patriotic fervor for the U.S.
23:50Gad Saad:it is so liberating to be with some colleagues that I know they actually rejoice in my success. They support me. I love what they do. They love what I do. I haven't frankly had that much in my career. So to just be able to operate in an environment where we're all on the same ship going in one direction, it's incredible. Yeah. Well, I just, on a personal note, I'm just thrilled for you guys because I know how long you've wanted to figure out a way out. I mean, if little Gad said at five years old in Lebanon, you know, going through the civil war and the craziness, we'll link to some of our previous interviews so you don't have to repeat the whole story, but you have just an insane life story that eventually gets you to Canada.
24:41You end up at really the sort of lefty, craziest university, right? That's fair to say. I mean, Concordia is basically. It is. I mean, do you think that five-year-old kid could ever imagine that you'd be teaching about American, the pride of America in Mississippi in 2026?
Read the full transcript
25:00Gad Saad:I would be lying to say that I had the foresight when I was five to be able to do that. But what I could tell you is that there certainly were behavioral patterns that I had that suggested that even then I was American in spirit. Do you follow what I mean? No, absolutely. For example, I tell the story in chapter one of the Parasitic Mind where we're at the synagogue in Beirut. And, you know, there's a prayer where you get up, you sit down, you go. And I'm asking my dad, why are we doing this? And he's like, shut up and just do it. And that to me was contrary to a sense of dignified freedom. I want to know.
25:40Gad Saad:I want to be a honey badger. I want to understand, right? And then when I would watch the spaghetti westerns not speaking English, and of course Clint Eastwood is always coming to town, I'm like, that's the guy I want to be, right? It's catering to my most basic masculine traits. And so while I didn't know I would end up at Ole Miss, I think I knew that I was an American in spirit. it. What do you make of the state? We'll do Europe and we'll do some of the other areas, but let's start with, since it's now your new home, what do you make of the state of what's going on in America? We don't seem to be as far gone as, let's say, Western Europe when it comes to some of this stuff and immigration, and you've been very outspoken on all of this.
26:26I mean, where do you think America is kind of at at the moment?
26:29Gad Saad:So using the nomenclature of stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four, that you would use for the metastasis of cancer, Canada is in the very, very rarefied world of stage five. I created a new stage above the maximal stage four of suicidal sympathy. So Canada is stage five. Britain is stage five. United States is stage two, but galloping quickly to try to make up ground. And of course, if the Republicans lose, then the horse will be that much faster. And the reason for that is, look, there are certain barriers or doorstops that make it less quickly for the United States to fully swim in the infinity pool of suicidal empathy, First Amendment, Second Amendment, right?
27:26Gad Saad:So there are some mechanisms, but ultimately, all disasters throughout human history stem from bad ideas that reside in the mind, right? And there was a time when there was a Viennese guy who was a frustrated painter who had a little mustache. He said, hey, guys, you know what? All of our problems stem from the parasitic cockroach Jews. And a bunch of people said, bingo, that's exactly what's wrong here. And off we go with six million dead. So I see that the entry of many of these dreadful ideas have taken deep root within the American ethos. And so while I'm optimistic in the sense that we don't have Dearborn everywhere in the United States, if you keep the same pattern, inshallah, it will be Dearborn in the next 50 years.
28:17So how much of this boils down to what people call this red-green alliance, that we saw the progressives, they're the obvious ones with suicidal empathy, let's say, right? It's these young people that are constantly, you know, telling us how bad America is and all of the usual stuff. But now the green part of it is now the Islamist portion of it. You've been very outspoken on this for many, many years. Is that really the end game of what you are defending against at this point?
28:50Gad Saad:Right. So when you say Canada's in stage five, I think that's basically what you're saying, right? Yeah, because it's a collection of all of the most dreadful ideas, right? So idea one, let's have open border policies and let's let in as many people as possible that don't share any of our foundational values. That's going to go really well, right? Okay, idea one. Here's another one. Let's not create a society rooted in meritocracy, as is more likely in the US. Canada has a lot more of a nanny state, social welfare system, socialist communist ethos, right? Therefore, we're a lot more also internalizing those values than you have in the United States.
29:36Gad Saad:You still have an entrepreneurial spirit in the United States. In Canada, the tall poppy syndrome is really internalized. I mean, why should you be making more money just because you write popular, powerful books, you greedy Jew? Why can't you share those book royalties? By the way, what I'm saying here is literally whenever I would lament about the fact that the Canadian government is taking all my book royalties, even though all my book royalties were not generated in Canada, tons of Canadians would say, what a greedy, disgusting pig you are. because I don't have the right to literally the neuronal firings of my mind.
30:18Gad Saad:58 % belongs to Canada and Quebec. So that's why Canada is stage five. That's why U.S. is stage two. Okay, so do you think there is no turning around? So Canada and the U.K. specifically, since those are the two. I mean, so what? They end up as just sort of broken, communist, Islamist, dysfunctional dystopians? I mean, dystopias? Yeah. So let me give you the positive and optimistic. The optimistic answer is that there is a template by which we could implement autocorrective strategies to turn the ship. So why is that optimistic? Because if you go to see your physician and God forbid he or she says, you've got stage four pancreatic cancer, you've got three weeks left to live, there's absolutely no intervention.
31:11Gad Saad:That would be the worst possible case. So in this case, there are prescriptive strategies that can auto-correct the ship. Here's the pessimistic part. I see no evidence that Canada or the UK is willing to implement a millimeter of that template. If anything, they're doubling and tripling down on the insanity. So that's why I think they will end up as dystopia. Okay. So putting those countries aside for a second, so now back to the US where you're saying we obviously have some of the flittings of this thing. Does it all boil down to the midterms? I mean, I hate to make everything about politics, but I mean, if the Republicans lose the midterms, Trump's done.
31:54And then it just seems to me that everything will be up for grabs. It will just be a destruction of the Republican Party, Trump and MAGA gone, and we will get Mamdami on scale.
32:05Gad Saad:Right. So, I mean, in the short term, yes, it all, you know, is based on what happens in the midterms. But of course, the real story, the real battle for your mind and soul is one that has a much longer term view, right? Look, the parasitic ideas that I discuss in the parasitic mind that eventually lead to swimming in the pool of suicidal empathy. Those parasitic ideas, depending on which idea we're talking about, took about 50 to 100 years of festering within the university ecosystem, then breaking out to give us Justin Trudeau and Ardern and Mamdami, right? So the fact that Trump came in is not suddenly the panacea to the...
32:51Gad Saad:He's a short-term doorstop, He could sign an executive order that says no more of this trans insanity in the NCAA, and the problem goes away. But then if you haven't beaten that idea into extinction, the fact that in the 21st century, Dave, we are genuinely debating what constitutes male or female. I mean, just stop for a second because it really seems to defy. I mean, Orwell could not have predicted this. Kafka could not have predicted this. Until 15 minutes ago, the 117 billion people that had existed on Earth, that's an actual estimate, seemed to perfectly know how to navigate through the very difficult conundrum of what constitutes male or female.
33:38Gad Saad:But 15 minutes ago, we erased everything and reignited that debate. The fact that we could be in such a place suggests that the battle is going to be much longer than just the midterms. Do you sense that some of what we're up against at a societal level is also just we're at a certain stage of the Internet? Meaning that let's say we got social media, you know, 20-ish years ago. And, you know, it was cool for a while and it was fun for a while. And then we started connecting with people and we shared selfies. But then it started devolving. Then obviously there's outside actors. There's algorithmic manipulation.
34:13There's foreign bots, all of these things that in some sense, it seems to me, all of the consternation, all of the bad ideas that now get flooded in are just a function of we are walking around with all of the power of the universe in our hand. And something like where we're at was bound to happen. Something like that. I mean, but to be fair to social media, bad ideas can quickly flourish on social media.
34:42Gad Saad:No, it's done great things too, for sure. You know what I mean? So like, just think about, I'm a professor. I'm not an actor. I'm not a famous politician. You're a part-time soccer player though, right? I was a very, very, very good soccer player. Three Harry's. But my point is that I could have easily been a stay-in-your-lane academic who only a few other specialists in my very narrow domain at the intersection of evolutionary psychology and psychology of decision-making would have ever heard from me. But because of the personality I have, because of the unique personhood that I have, I looked at all of these mediums and these modalities and I said, oh my God, I can now spread my message to millions of people.
35:34Gad Saad:Now, I could have opened the laptop and nobody could have listened. But I had enough self-confidence. I said, you know what? I think I've got interesting things to say. And then I get Elon Musk to then become a fan of my work, right? So yes, there is terrible negative coin of social media, but you and I might have never met had it not been social media. No, no, no. I mean, I remember, I mean, now it's over 10 years ago, but suddenly seeing this name, Gad Saad on Twitter when we were both kind of nobodies. And then eventually we met. You were quite literally the first guest on that first test show of the Rubin Report many lifetimes ago.
36:14What is going to happen if we lose? If we really lose this, are we just looking at the end of Western civilization? I mean, what is it really? Is it that we will all be living in communist countries and never able to say what we think and all of the horrible things that we think? Or is there some bastardized version of all of that? Is that too black-pilled for you?
36:42Gad Saad:No. And I'm not being hyperbolic. It will be the end of Western civilization, but it will take a very long time to reach that end. You understand what I mean? Most people don't have the creative imagination to extrapolate beyond sort of their myopic short-term thing, right? Look, I live in a nice neighborhood and I'm going to buy tomatoes and it's my daughter's wedding. What is the stuff I hear about Sharia law? I mean, come on, this is nothing, right? Because the architecture of the human mind is such that it avoids this stuff until the monster literally bites you in the ass. And only then does the monster exist.
37:26Gad Saad:Until then, it doesn't exist. I mean, think about, for example, how some rich Jewish billionaires have suddenly woken up to the fact that there is orgiastic Jew hatred on university campuses. but it took for their preferred alma mater to be the place where that Jew hatred was happening to wake them out of their stupor. When Gatsad was screaming atop of the mountain for 20 years before then, it was just noise. We didn't have to hear it. So yes, it will end up with the dismantling of the beautiful Western civilization that has been created, but it's not going to happen tomorrow. When I said 25 years ago that you were going to have the exact same thing as what happened in Beirut, Lebanon that I escaped from, people said, what kind of garbage is this, right?
38:19Gad Saad:But now today they say, oops, I think I can see what you mean. I see what's happening in Paris. I see what's happening in Malmö. And I could now extrapolate if these demographic realities continue. So look, the reason why many of the most vociferous defenders of the Western traditions are immigrants, whether it be me, whether it be Ayaan Hirsi Ali, there's really one key reason. It's because we weren't born into this society. Therefore, we don't presume that this is the default value of how all societies are organized, because we've sampled from the buffet of societies, and we know that what is in the U.S.
39:01Gad Saad:is a bleep. It's an anomaly within the trajectory of human history. So we stand up tall and say, hey, guys, wake up. So that's why it's incumbent on us to wake those who think that it's like that forevermore. You mentioned the parasitic mind a couple of times. Actually, your book in between was about happiness. And I'm wondering how many times did you have to go back to, boy, I got to figure out a way to be happy while writing about some pretty depressing stuff. Or, you know, because you always have a smile on your face and you're always happy and your disposition is, I think, cup half full. But when you're writing about, I don't know, the end of Western civilization, it's not always the most fun thing.
39:41Gad Saad:Now, thank you so much for that question, because that actually is exactly how I ended up writing the happiness book. The parasitic mind and suicidal empathy were part of a grand simmering that was happening in my brain. But I would be lying to you if I told you, oh, but I had always planned a priori to write a happiness book buttressed by these two other books. That's not true. That really came up in an ad hoc manner because a lot of people, to your point, would write to me and say exactly what you just said. How is it that you could still be so playful and joke around and be sarcastic and always have a smile and yet tackle such issues?
40:21Gad Saad:And so many people wrote to me with that question. I said, hey, wait a minute. Why don't I write a book about happiness, taking part my personal life, coupled with ancient wisdoms, coupled with the latest science on happiness, and see if I could come up with a good book. And frankly, I'm a bit disappointed that that book didn't get nearly the attention that I was hoping it was going to get. And the reason is really one that is rooted in bad luck. My publisher sold, so Regnery was bought out by Skyhorse literally around the week that that book was coming out. So it completely fell through the cracks.
41:03Well, you know how it is. It's like that's what musicians always say. They put out an album and their favorite song is usually the one that nobody knows. And the one that they hate the most is always the biggest hit. Let me ask you something that I think will be a bit of a complex question for you, which is that you were on Rogan a couple weeks ago. And you've been on Rogan, I don't know, probably a dozen times also. And I know he holds you in such unbelievably high regard. it seems that in a lot of ways he's gone somewhat sideways on the Israel stuff or is listening to a lot of the podcast to stand as some people call it with some of this woke right stuff and you it seemed to me that you really tried to clean up some of his confusions there's a clip from a few years ago where he's on you're on with him and you ask him how many Jews there are what did he say He said$3 billion.
41:54No, first he said$1 billion.
41:56Gad Saad:I said, okay, final answer. So he paused. He goes, okay, no, no, no,$500 million. I said, okay, final answer. He goes, yes,$500 million. So then I tell him the number, and he goes, bullshit. Then he does the, Jamie, look it up. And then it was what I said. Right. It was$15 or$16 million. Now, of course, that comment in and of itself is just not knowing something, and that's just fine. We all have those spots. But it seemed like you spent a decent amount of time in the interview trying to clean up some of his confusions about the history of the Middle East. And there's just so much nonsense related to that very small tract of land known as the Holy Land.
42:32Did you feel you got somewhere? Do you enjoy that when you're with, you know, you're promoting a book and you're also having this sort of struggle session?
42:41Gad Saad:Yeah. Well, I mean, look, it was a difficult situation because, as you said, there is great mutual love and respect between the both of us. But I think the fact that he said, you know what? I've got Gadsad here. I trust him. Let me go with this topic. And to your point, we spent probably the first 10 minutes talking about suicidal empathy and much of the rest of the thing talking about Israel and so on. I think it's a testament. And believe me, it's not that I'm trying to be charitable and kind. I say it as it is. I truly felt that he took the opportunity to say, look, I trust this guy. I respect this guy.
43:22Gad Saad:So let's have an honest conversation. To his credit, I don't know if you noticed, we can go back probably and ask Grog to do the analysis. I think of the 12 times that I've been on a show, it's the one where I probably spoke the most at. Meaning that if we broke up, you know, this time you spoke 60%, I spoke 40%, whatever. it's probably so it's not as though he was badgering me interrupting me he thought look i've got this guy i know he knows his stuff he's coming from a different perspective i trust him i know that he won't be upset if we you know discuss these things let me do it and so in that sense i was very thankful that we did it and and believe me at the end of it we really just hugged out and there was zero animosity.
44:12Gad Saad:So. Yeah. And to be clear, I'm actually not presenting it as a criticism of him. I think, I think maybe he has some blind spots related to some of this stuff, but yes, you did talk a ton and he didn't, you know, he took it in whether he continues with that or not. But what do you make with the more general thing that seems to be happening in podcast land or some of this woke right stuff? I mean, this endless obsession with Israel and, and or the Jews and or Zionism, which to me at this point, you can interchange any of those and it's irrelevant. They use it for linguistic, you know, confusion usually.
44:46Gad Saad:There's an expression in French, tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you who you are. Now, in this case, it's not so much who you are, but tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you what your position on the issue will be. If he is surrounded by a bunch of comics that are dear friends of his, nearly all of whom have a particular viewpoint on Israel, then it's not surprising that if only through osmosis, there's going to be a prediction as to what his positions are going to be. So that's why it was a really tall order for me, because I've got three hours to go against 50 guys that have been in your ear every single day when you do the comedy show.
45:29Gad Saad:And so I did my best. Hopefully it came out okay. Right. And there's nobody better to get the history of the Middle East from than a bunch of comics, right? Exactly, exactly. What else is on your mind these days, my friend, as you traverse this crazy experience that we're all doing on this little spinning rock? Well, maybe I'll mention some sort of personal slash professional stuff. One of the things that really has me super excited about going to Ole Miss is that I will have a lot of freedom to do a lot of writing. You know, at various stages in your career, different things can seem exciting at early part and become less exciting later.
46:08Gad Saad:So at this stage of my career, explaining to Timmy during office hours why he got a B - in his participation grade is probably not the best use of my time or the best use of Ole Miss paying for my time, right? And to their credit, they're fully aware of this. They still want me to, you know, teach some course once in a while and so on. But they recognize that the value that today I bring to a place like Ole Miss is going to be much more in my intellectual endeavors. And so I'm very excited by that because I'm not going to be weighed down by onerous administrative and teaching duties. So I can write the next book and the next one and the next one.
46:49Gad Saad:And maybe one day I will reach the level of the great Thomas Sowell. Who knows? How many does Sowell have? Can we check that? Like 400? 4 ,000? Yeah, yeah. You know, our buddy Michael Shermer, I think, has like 50-something books, but he's sold. You're too humble to mention it. You may be one of the only living people to have actually had a chat with him. And I do consider it that I'm envious of you because of that. Oh, well, I mean, it truly, it was one of, I mean, it was really, you can watch that interview. If you watch, Gad, you'll love this. If you watch the first two minutes of that interview, my voice sounds different.
47:29It was the only time ever that I was nervous interviewing somebody because I knew I was with this living legend in this incredible moment. And then when he had that, uh, fax thing that just went so mega viral, it's just, it's just incredible. All right, we're going to find out how many books, uh, how many books Sol has written. Can I guess?
47:46Gad Saad:Yeah, you take a guess while they're checking. I'm going to say somewhere between 30 to 40. 30 to 40? What's the number, guys? All right, they're working on that. Let me ask you something while they check the numbers on that. So you mentioned you were talking to the consulate earlier. So are you now fast? Will you be an American citizen by July 4th, by our 250th anniversary? What do we got to do? I will be permanent landed resident, certainly by then. you know green card and hand everything through that those the extraordinary visa uh but then hopefully that will be fast-tracked to me becoming red red white and blue is that how you say it or red yeah yeah well and then let me just understand this so if you were not fully a resident but if you then put on a keffia and had the flag of a terrorist organization and were stopping students from attending school at old miss would you think that you should be able to stay or would you have to go.
48:42I'm curious.
48:43Gad Saad:Well, I would certainly get an honorary PhD at an Ivy League school, right? Because you don the keffiyeh and you say how evil the United States is. And then here comes your honorary doctorate of letters. But yes, of course, in my view, a lot of those people who are real ingrates just don't belong in our society. I mean, I come here. I am so thankful to be american right i'm so happy i mean that's that was the gist of those tweets that you saw earlier i had yeah but by the way the people at the consulate some of them had recognized me they were full of love and i'm like god damn it man i'm gonna go to a place where people appreciate me sign me up it's crazy because i have a micro version of that having left cali to come here where cali i'd go to the supermarket and people hated me and here i come and quite literally people try to buy my groceries sometimes.
49:36And it's like, it's, it's a phase of, as you said a moment ago regarding something else, it's a phase of life thing. Sometimes you want to fight against something and that's worthy. And then sometimes you want to fight with and for something. And that's nice. I'm thrilled that you're finally in that phase. How many books has Tom? 49? I underestimated his greatness. That's wow. Wow. I mean, and you know, even though he's probably, I think he's, I think he's 94 right now, you know that 50th is on the way.
50:03Gad Saad:Let's calculate. If I do one every two years, that's 33 years, I could potentially catch up. I still have a shot in hell. Late 80s Gad Saad with his 50th book. Hey, you know what? Now that you are an American with this renewed sense of joie de vie, anything is possible. Gad, you are simply the best. It's you and Tina Turner that I say that about. I thank you, my friend. The link to the book is down below and we will break bread in America. I will come to Mississippi. People always come into Florida. I want to come to Mississippi. The house that we're hoping to get, you could be in a wing of that house.
50:41Gad Saad:I won't even know you're there. Well, I don't know. I thought maybe we could have dinner or something, but okay. I want to have dinner with you. Goodbye. On June 11th, the Rubin Report will be live at the Fillmore Miami Beach with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, Adam Carolla, Jillian Michaels, and little old me. Seats are limited and going fast, so if you've been watching the show and want to experience it live, scan the QR code right over here and grab your ticket. I'll see you there. Hey, Chicagoland, the Wayfair store is in your neighborhood at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Finally, you can feel the fabric, sit on the sectionals, and even open the refrigerators.
51:17Plus, our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget. Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette.
51:36Gad Saad:Wayfair, every style, every home.
From the publisher
Dave Rubin of "The Rubin Report" talks to Gad Saad about his new book Suicidal Empathy and how empathy, when detached from reason and critical thinking, can be manipulated to advance destructive ideas; why social media, emotional appeals, and ideological activism often bypass logic and exploit human psychology; the connection between The Parasitic Mind and Suicidal Empathy as explanations for how both cognition and emotions can be hijacked; the psychology of persuasion, evolutionary biology, academia, and why many institutions increasingly reward feelings over facts; how Elon Musk helped popularize the concept of suicidal empathy in the broader culture; why he believes America remains more resilient than Canada and the United Kingdom due to the First Amendment, Second Amendment, and a stronger culture of individual liberty; how mass immigration, multiculturalism, anti-meritocratic policies, and the "red-green alliance" between progressives and Islamists are transforming Western societies; threats to free speech, Western values, and national identity; his appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast, their debate over Israel, Zionism, antisemitism, and the history of the Middle East; why Saad believes Rogan has been influenced by voices in the podcast world that are increasingly critical of Israel; the rise of the "woke right," online political tribalism, and misinformation; and why he fears Canada and Britain are accelerating toward cultural and political decline, and much more.
