Psychiatrist Spots a Major Problem w/ Lindsay Clancy's Defense | Hannah Spier

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0:44And here, this is exactly what we would expect to happen when ideologies clash with facts. And we see again and again how different categories of mental disorders are bent out of shape to include more women under their umbrella to say this is not misbehavior. This is not poor socialization. This is a mental disorder. And now we're seeing this exactly this happened to postpartum psychosis. psychosis. And this reaction we're seeing now on social media, where women are hurting their own children to signal, look how much we are suffering under motherhood. We are all, Lindsay Clancy, throwing water on their baby.

1:33So they're screaming, like, look how common it is. You're just not seeing us. We're so oppressed. This is the pathologization of motherhood that's really showing us this dark path that we are being led down as a society.

1:56All right, this is The Rubin Report. I'm Dave Rubin. And joining me today is a Norwegian psychiatrist and cognitive behavioral psychotherapist, as well as host of the Psychobabble podcast, Hannah Speer. Hannah, nice to meet you. Good to be here, Dave. Thank you so much. So, as you know, I was off for all of August, and I just very quickly this week got caught up on all the news that I missed. And, of course, the story that you've been focusing mostly on on your show over the last little bit has been this horrific murder of these three small children. The fallout, I would say, from men, from women, from the media.

2:41Who's to blame? how did this all happen and everything else. So I thought maybe we could start because you've covered this so extensively. If you want to give me a two minute recap of sort of everything in terms of how this all happened, and then we can talk about medications, we can talk about therapy, we can talk about some of the reactions, some of the media stuff as well. But for the people that really haven't played along too much, can we just start at the beginning for a moment? Yes, of course. So we're following Lindsay Clancy. And the facts are that on January 24th of 2023, she sent her husband on two errands to create a window of about 20 to 30 minutes, where she then took three kids.

3:33She took each one into the basement and strangled them, each with an exercise band fitting their size. And then she proceeded to cut her wrists shallowly and jump out the second-story window and was paralyzed from the waist down. And she claims in the aftermath that she heard male commanding voices telling her to kill the children. And what we know is that she was in treatment for the four months prior. She was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and sleep problems. and she was on 13 different types of medications over four months, not all at the same time. And they proved that she didn't ingest all of the prescribed medications.

4:32And so the trial is going on. We're following her. And what has really shocked me and why I took up this case was really the reaction that we're seeing from women, not just in the U.S., also here in Europe. They're posting on social media two days after they already started. Hashtag I stand with Lindsey Clancy, not knowing really anything. So that is what has shocked me. Okay, so I do want to spend a portion of this talking about that reaction, and that's what got my guys' attention to you in the way you were covering some of the reaction, particularly from women. And as you said, it's worldwide, not just in the U.S.

5:09But I want to back up on a few of the things. So, okay, so she had generalized anxiety disorder. She obviously had postpartum depression. There were 13 medications, which, if I understand correctly, were prescribed by a series of different doctors. And it was a little unclear as to whether she was taking them all appropriately or had tried to stop taking some of them. Maybe you know a bit more on that, but it sounds like it was a little bit of mismatched stuff with some of that. Oh, hold on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The postpartum? Yeah, there's a lot here. I don't want to, yeah. Go ahead. The postpartum depression they have put on retrospectively, that was not one of the diagnosis her psychiatrist had put before this trial began.

5:51Interesting. Okay. So she had generalized anxiety disorder and sleep issues. That's what she was being prescribed medication for, not for postpartum depression. That wasn't until the trial began. Did I get that correct? Yes. Yes. Okay. So that's actually rather extraordinary and a seemingly important piece of the puzzle. I agree.

6:40definitions of postpartum psychosis, because that is, I think, the most important thing here to distinguish, because we're talking now a lot about postpartum depression. And what she has to have had to be found not guilty by reason of insanity is postpartum psychosis. And that is so why in the video that I made, I put so much attention to what a psychotic person actually looks like, because people don't know that. And that is where we should put our attention. So I started... Yeah, so can you explain that? Can you explain that a bit more before we move forward? Yeah, so a psychosis is by definition someone who's highly disorganized, someone who has delusions and hallucinations, not always, but it is a core symptom, but disorganized speech and being incoherent.

7:37They have so much sensory input that when you are talking to them, it feels like they're having conversations with many different people, maybe not in the same room, maybe not alone with them in the room. That is what it feels like to you. They're looking around. They're very distracted, very disorganized. And so the video that I showed was a person who was quite coherent, not in the middle of a florid psychosis. And here we're talking about a woman who was in such a florid psychosis that she killed her three children, one of them a baby. So we're not talking about something that was in the beginning stages.

8:16And she's now claiming that she only heard those commanding voices for the 18 minutes it took to kill the kids. And that is also that, I mean, that's something no one has seen before in that case. It doesn't take, you know, you have hallucinations for a period of time. So brief psychotic disorder is definitionally at least a day. So I found it strange that her husband, who knew her the best, would not have noticed anything. She talked to her psychiatrist the day before who also knew her. They didn't see any signs of this florid psychosis that would make her lethal. And so my colleagues were all posting that, well, you know, a postpartum psychosis, it can wax and wane and you can seem normal one minute and then be psychotic the next.

9:10And so I thought, oh, here again, they are changing the definitions to excuse female behavior. And that is what I'm writing about in the first place, which is why I took notice of this case. Right. OK, so that seems to be the crux of it now and where people are kind of taking sides on an unbelievably horrific and tragic event here. So if the if the psychiatrist the day before and the husband in the days leading up to this didn't see anything different. And that's not to say she was in great shape, obviously, right? Because she was on all of these medications and we talked about generalized anxiety disorder and sleep stuff, but that there was no real psychosis, which is what you're saying.

9:47Then what, what are you saying? This is purely, from your point of view, do you think this is purely a legal defense that they are trying to use or is something else going on here? I don't see any psychiatric evidence to be close to believing that she had a psychotic episode. And also in that there was obviously a premeditated notion here in that she sent her husband out and had a planned way of killing him. You're saying that wouldn't be congruent with psychosis. That you're able to plan like that, to time? Because, you know, she timed the errands, so she sent him on two different errands to make sure that there was enough time.

10:38I have never met a psychotic person who would be able to do that. I mean, that is very... And that is also what the forensic psychiatrist testified in court that this would be highly unusual. So you've mentioned colleagues a couple of times. So what do you think is happening in the psychiatric community that is lending certain people to say this is psychosis when it is not? I suspect this has more to do with women's issues or feminism would be my guess. Yes, I think we're really seeing here what has happened because the field is It's really been influenced so much by gynocentrism and by feminist ideologies.

11:26And here, this is exactly what we would expect to happen when ideologies clash with facts. And we see again and again how different categories of mental disorders are bent out of shape to include more women under their umbrella to say this is not misbehavior. This is not poor socialization. This is a mental disorder. And now we're seeing this, exactly this happened to postpartum psychosis. And this reaction we're seeing now on social media, where women are hurting their own children to signal, look how much we are suffering under motherhood. we are all Lindsay Clancy throwing water on their baby so they're screaming like look how common it is you're just not seeing us we're so oppressed this is the pathologization of motherhood that's really showing us this dark path that we are being led down as a society right so for people that aren't sure what you're talking about I mean they're quite literally are like trends now on TikTok where women are harming their children either throwing hot water on them or a series of other things because the basic they're trying to get sympathy from other people about in effect what you just said that somehow they're the victims in all of this so well are you shocked by this I mean it sounds like my sense is that you're uh you've been tracking this for a while and you're not fully shocked in an in a field that's been so infected by these ideas yeah you know I'm honoring many situations because I am I'm horrified you know Dave I loved psychiatry when I went into it.

13:10My first job was in a locked ward for the criminally insane. And I thought, yes, this is it. Like, this is where I belong. And then slowly but steadily, I just saw how the field has been corrupted and how we're just at the mercy of all this feminization and feminist ideology. You just will not tell the truth in so many cases. And then, you know, I started working with a lot of women in the outpatient clinics. That's when you see a lot of women. And you just were not able to tell anyone that, you know, no, I don't think you have a mental disorder. There's so many of these things. So I'm tracking it.

13:51But this has truly shocked me. how eager they are to be victims, how aggressively they protect that victimhood, so aggressively, in fact, that they'll hurt their own children in front of a camera. That is next level. So what is it that you think actually happened to her then? If she didn't have a—I understand that the premeditation part of this and everything else you said, that that doesn't lend itself to psychosis, then what is it that happened that led to this? Is this a combination of 13 drugs and being misprescribed things and a series of other things? What do you think actually got it to this point?

14:31Right. I mean, of course, the medication, that wasn't good practice. It is sadly standard practice. If you go into the guidelines of the APA, you'll find this method recommended. You go from one to the other if it doesn't work, and then you augment the therapy. You put on a second and a third. And I've had a lot of patients on the same combination. So I wasn't shocked at all to see this. But I think, you know, that there are psychopathic women just like there are psychopathic men. And, you know, that gets triggered as well. and half of the filicides in the U.S. are done by women. That is not uncommon.

15:21That is something we've seen before. We just refuse to see it as it is. Look, if this had been a father, a father would murder his three children, we would not see a sea of men wearing blue standing outside of the courtroom doing strangle hands because we are perfectly aware that there is such a thing as male psychopaths. And an equal amount of women commit the same kind of crime, filicides, murdering your kids. So what do you think the average, not the psychotherapist or someone in the field, but the average woman who is outside protesting for her, What do you think it is that they, what do they want to happen here exactly?

16:10Is it that they want her to go free? They want her to just spend time in an institution rather than jail? Is that secondary to something else? I don't think that this is out of empathy for Lindsay. I don't think they care at all about her or her kids because look how easily they can harm their own children. I don't think they care a lick about Lindsay Clancy. I think this is a protection of their own victimhood. They want to be seen. They have this imaginary thing of women as a group are victims, and that victimhood has to be protected at any cost. And that means showing up there. I think it helps that Lindsay Clancy is an attractive young mother.

16:57I think that helps. But I think we're going to see more and more of this. And that's definitely true. But I don't think it has to do with Lindsay Clancy specifically. I think they want her to go free just because they want female behavior of any kind to be excused and treated exactly how they want it to be treated. It's about obedience to the female cause. Okay, so from a psychiatric perspective, how would you, putting aside Lindsay for a second, how would you take one of those women who are clearly misguided in what they are trying to accomplish or their need for victimhood or however you want to call it, how would you try to wean them off that?

17:43Oh, yes. Can you cure a feminist? Good title for a book. it's all yours it's all yours yes is that possible they need a cause right they need a purpose just like men need a purpose and we are talking about that a lot the crisis of young men there's also a crisis among young women or not so young anymore women and I'm not ashamed to say that for, and that's from a psychiatric point of view, for most women, that purpose is motherhood. And there's a very small subset of women for whom that is not the case, that the maternal instinct is not very strong. I've met those women. They are rare. For most women, that is our purpose.

18:41And when that's not fulfilled to the degree we need it to be filled, then something happens. And it is so, I mean, it's so tempting for all of us, right, to fill that victim. Oh, sorry for me. And that is a temptation for everyone. And for women, it is so easy to grab. You can find a cause anywhere for victimhood. What do you think this is going to do to male-female relations as men watch these types of women, you know, sort of defend the unthinkable and place victimhood at the highest order? And I just don't see how if you were a young man and you met a woman who was even remotely close to any of these ideas, how you could ever trust her.

19:23I mean, it's just an unbelievably horrific situation that's been thrust upon us. Yeah. We're already seeing this trend of young men breaking up with their girlfriends and posting that online. That, you know, if you're supporting Lindsay Clancy, that is not a quality I see in the future mother of my children. And the girlfriends then being horrified, and they're posting it in many cases. Like, look, he broke up with me because of this, and they don't understand it. There's already such a gap between young men and women now, them not finding each other. And I think it's very hard for men. And I do think that there is a sort of epidemic of these types of pathologies in women, these cluster B pathologies of borderline and narcissism among women that we're not paying close enough attention to.

20:17We've really let it spiral. And I think men are sensing that. It's hard to find a woman who's willing to sacrifice and want to sacrifice for family. And I do think that's what men are noticing now. That's some of what I do. I try to help men, young men, screen for that when they're dating. What are some of those techniques in the screening process? Right, to ask about her family, ask if she's had long-term relationships, female friends, to date girls that are in the community, where the community can, you know, they can vouch for her. Because women who tend towards these sort of cluster B traits, they're female predators.

21:04So they go through community, they burn bridges, and so people around will know. So such techniques like that, like what do you ask a girl for? What do you want to look for on her social media? How do you find a woman who would sacrifice for a future family? How much of this do you think is just sort of the state of where we're at, kind of this stage of the internet? We're 20 years into social media. You know, it's a generation of mothers that now grew up with everything being public and filtered Instagram pictures and nobody can look perfect. And they can actually get likes off of their whatever their pain might be or insecurities, et cetera, et cetera.

21:49I think social media definitely amplified what was already sown by feminism. All of this grievance culture that we have that women grew up with, that already started in the 70s. So women were already told by Andrea Dworkin that they live in a culture that hates them. So I don't think, I mean, social media is a very popular culprit now, but I think it's too convenient. It just amplified what was already there, this livelihood that we want to grab onto. So what do you think the healthiest resolution of the case may be? I should note that we're taping this on Thursday afternoon. Obviously, the court case has been hung up, and I know you're not a legal expert, but psychologically for everyone involved here and society at large, what do you think the healthiest solution is now?

22:45Yeah, I mean, maybe I'm a bit pessimistic, but I think, you know, with nine women on the jury, I think she will walk free. even if she is found not guilty by a reason of insanity that will be she'll you know she'll be at the mercy of a psychiatrist who will let her go when he finds out when he finds that that's responsible right so I think I looked at the average is something like three and a half years for women. So, you know, even if she's found not guilty by reason of insanity, that's then what we're looking at. So eventually she will go free. And yeah, this will then be, we will at the next case see more pressure.

23:37We'll see more women standing outside and intimidating the jury and they see that it works. I mean, the jury should have been sequestered from the beginning. So, all right. So that was the, I don't think that was the most, the healthiest answer. So what would the healthiest answer be? Not what you think might happen. I understand that. I understand that. And I, my sense is that you're probably, that you're probably right about that, but, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I, I, you, you gave me the realist answer. That's one version of it and that's likely what will happen. But what do you think the sort of healthiest for society?

24:10Is it that she has to go to jail for a long time? And does that then show some consequences to this and maybe push back on some of the bad ideas that these people, that these women have ingested? Yes, that would have been that we see that this is that women can also do evil and women commit crimes and violence at the same rates as men. That is really a truth that we have to be open eyed about. And the data on that is clear. We just, you know, we see the most visible crime. You know, look at crime and violence against kids and elderly. that is very much perpetrated by women at equal rates. So sometimes it's higher, the female perpetrators, if you look at that.

24:58So that would be a great start to seeing that, yes, women can also be evil, and women can also want to get out of situations that they no longer will be in, and they can't deal with resentment. So that would be a good start. We just have to change our view on what women are capable of. Well, you've done, as I think you've illustrated here, you've done a really nice job talking about this from the psychological perspective. And people can check out your channel. It's called Psychobabble on YouTube, and I'm sure on some of the other platforms as well. And I'd love to have you back maybe after we get the resolution here, and we can talk about what some of the fallout will be.

25:40So Hannah, I thank you for your time. Thank you so much, Dave.