These Uncomfortable Facts About Immigration in Australia Should Be a Warning | John Anderson

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0:35Approved? Oh, agents, where would we be without you? Somewhere with a lot more tabs open. Create your first Monday agent in minutes at monday.com. When you take God out of being over government, government becomes God. Well, what's government? Whatever the system, including in democracy, actually it's just people. What's the problem with people? They're flawed. I just came from Melbourne and it's very hard to get a feeling for the city. Often we were kind of joking, where are the Australians? In Australia, we've always been known for being laissez-faire, you know, there's no class system in Australia.

1:08A very fortunate society. But I think the downside of the admirable equality, you know, egalitarianism Australian is actually complacency. Now the problem with complacency, you can ignore reality for as long as you like, but in the end you won't be able to ignore the consequences of reality.

1:32If you have many people coming in, if they're prepared to merge and build up, it can be fine, everything goes well. But if people are coming in bringing their own beliefs, their own politics, their own approach to life that is actually hostile to the hosts, we know that a certain proportion of Muslim people are radicalised, quite a high proportion. You don't need too many to make the world a very difficult place. Maybe it's got to get even worse before it gets better. But we do need some sort of wake-up call, and hopefully before it's too late. That's been the history of the Western democracies.

2:05But is that just baked in, that that's what humans will do? We will just wait until it's too late.

2:18All right, you're a pro, John Anderson. We are flipping the script. We just sat down for about an hour. Yeah, you got to get rid of that piece of paper. Get that out of here. We're going to flip the script. I suspect I'm going to ask you many of the same things that you asked me. And already your body language has changed as the interviewee versus the interviewer. That's how it works. Did I give that away? You have to shift a little, or maybe it's from sitting for a while. First, let me ask you this, because as someone that's been in politics, that is now in, well, what do you consider yourself now?

2:50Why don't we start with that? If I was to say, what is John Anderson now in a public sense? What do you really consider yourself? The flippant comment, not altogether flippant. If you say to me, who are you? I'm a guy who lives in the bush, the country, was a farmer, now work for my son, who is the farmer and he with his lovely wife run the show. That's sort of my mindset. That's the man John Anderson and then the public John Anderson. I find myself intrigued that there's such a hunger for content, that there is such an extraordinary suspicion, cynicism about mainstream media that I'm really aware that people are looking for much more depth.

3:37And I'm particularly struck by the way in which young people will pull me up and want to talk about a conversation I've had. Might be this one. It will be this one after it goes up. Oh, I saw you talking to, and can we talk about it? So I'm kind of aware, it's a funny thing to say, that I'm probably more now known as a social commentator than a former politician. Yeah. Could you have ever dreamed that that was what it was going to be? Who knew? You wouldn't have known. when you and I started that podcasting would become so big. Yeah. Well, that's what I said to you right when we sat down is that you strike, you see when I said I'm going to see John today, it's like I'm seeing an old friend because we did, I think the first time we did this was at my house in about 2016 or 17.

4:27It's a long time ago. Yeah. You know, nine years is not that long, but in some sense, in the way the world has sped up, it feels like a long time. do you feel that you can affect things the way you want now outside of the system more? Is it more than when you were in the system? Is it less than your system? Is it just a different way that you're affecting things? Well, certainly a different way. But it's funny that you should say that because a number of people who say to me, oh, you have more impact now than you did when you were in that talk fest. And yeah, I think the first thing I'd say there is, you know, I don't want to sound like a clever guy.

5:04It's more that I have clever people on and I can create a conduit for people who think clearly and well and have got important things to say whether I agree with them or not. I get accused of running a conservative podcast. In reality, many of the people I talk to are not conservative or they've come to some conservative positions on key issues. I'll give you a classic example. I often talk to Warren Farrell from the state that you were once in, in California. him. He'll tell you. He said, I'm a liberal in the American sense. I'm a lefty on everything except the importance of children and fathering.

5:41He'll tell you that. But I suppose, you know, there'd be plenty of people in America say, oh, he's deserted the true cause. He's now right wing. What? For saying that fathering matters and that our boys are not doing well and we need to reassess this and be less selfish and less keen to pursue what we want to do and not worry as much about the way in which we carry our responsibilities, that makes you some sort of traitor? I think he's incredibly thoughtful. It says more about the modern left, I suppose, than it says about him. Yeah. Right? I mean, they've looked to purge. So as you've interviewed people, how do you get the people that are generally not willing to talk to you?

6:25Are you able to? Because that has become my great challenge. Now, professionally, that's become my great challenge. I don't want this to sound arrogant, but I'm going to say it anyway. I actually think that a lot of people from the progressive side don't want to come on and have to justify their positions in terms of arguments, facts, reason, the basis of so much of our knowledge, which is historical understanding. They don't want to go there. As Ayan Hirsi Ali puts it, we're in danger of turning our democracy into an emocracy. Democracy can only work when you're clearly committed to reasoned, evidence-based debate.

7:11You will not produce good policy out of a truncated, a bastardised, a silenced debate. It can't happen. That's the story of the West today. We're not seeing good policy because the debating processes are so tortured, so maligned, if you like, so broken down, because we don't think truth matters anymore. Who was it? Thomas Sowell made that interesting observation. It's not that little Johnny can't think. He can think. It's not that little Johnny can't feel. He can feel. The trouble is that little Johnny thinks that feeling is thinking. And so very rarely do people say no if they're interested in having a debate about something where they've done deep research and where it really stacks up.

8:04But there's a lot of people now who have high public profiles that are not doing that research and can't justify their arguments. That's my impression. If it sounds arrogant, I'm sorry, but... No, I don't think it sounds arrogant. I think that's kind of just where we are at as a species, partly because of the internet and partly because of success of the West has left us kind of fat and dumb. Well, I guess that would be the next question. Do you think that some of this, what you just described, is just a function of the success of the West? In Australia, undoubtedly. That's interesting. Undoubtedly.

8:43We've always been known for being laissez-faire, not a bad thing, always been known for Jack's as good as his mate. You know, there's no class system in Australia. We've always been sceptical about tall poppies. A very egalitarian society, a very fortunate society. We've always been pretty well off. In fact, at 1900, it's often said that Argentina and Australia had the highest per capita wages in the world. And Australia, of course, built on that. Argentina didn't. we now seem to be determined to destroy it in pretty short order. And ironically, Argentina is now going like this because they've returned to some of the things that...

9:26At last. A bit of discipline around the place, by which I mean fiscal discipline, not trying to deny people their freedom. Maybe their licentiousness, not their freedom. Big distinction to make. But I think the downside of the admirable equality, egalitarianism of Australians is actually complacency. Now, the problem with complacency, as somebody pointed out, is that you can ignore reality for as long as you like, but in the end you won't be able to ignore the consequences of reality. And I can think of five or six areas where this country absolutely needs to be making choices. right now if we're to secure for our children and our grandchildren what we had and we're not making those choices we're running away from them and in fact we're buying them off in a form of intergenerational theft both economic and social and i would argue geopolitically hey chicagoland the wayfair store is in your neighborhood at edens plaza and wilmette finally you can feel the fabric sit on the sectionals and even open the refrigerators plus our in-store designers will help you bring it all together with free one-on-one design support for any project on any budget.

10:44Yep, we said free. Oh, and did we mention the cafe? So what are you waiting for? Come see all that's in store. Visit the Wayfair store today at Edens Plaza and Wilmette. Wayfair, every style, every home. So what happened to the, you know, we had this sort of comical idea of the Australian, right? I mean, Crocodile Dundee basically became that. I mean, that was what we sort of, and then Steve Irwin, and there's a few other versions. And as you know, I've got young kids. So now Bluey has basically taken over the American mind of what an Australian is. But the idea of Crocodile Dundee, that was what was sold to us as Americans.

11:22That's what Aussies are. Now, obviously that was a Hollywood version of all that, but where is that man now? Does he exist? I wish. Oh yeah, they exist. And the inner crocodile Dundee. By that I mean his admirable qualities. Yeah, of course. I made it in a surprising - He was pretty admirable in the movie. Yeah, in many ways. Yeah, he was. But the idea of that man seems to have been abandoned and that seems to be the thing that you're talking about then leads to all the political stuff, right? I think complacency is a big part of it. I also think there's another strange part of the Australian cyclists.

11:59One of the great differences between Australia and America. You were an experiment in freedom, and a pretty bloody one at times, and a pretty cruel one, a tough one. We actually were an authoritarian regime in terms of our origins. This was a convict settlement right here, literally where we're sitting in Sydney, just downstairs basically, the beginnings of an extraordinary adventure in a foreign land. And there has always been a part of us that has looked to authority figures. And so it's often said of Australians they're formidable in war and lackadaisical in peace. When the challenge is really there, we can show a toughness and a resilience that's extraordinary.

12:44You go back to the Second World War and the North African desert, the first time the Allies actually won anything significant, before which the Allies had lost every battle to the Germans, after which the Germans never really won anything. The key to that was actually Australian soldiers and New Zealanders. And General Rommel, who, of course, was probably the greatest of the American generals, forced in the end to commit suicide by Hitler, said of the Australian troops, they must be the biggest and finest men the Empire has ever produced. and that if I wanted to take hell, I'd send the New Zealanders in first, then I'd send the Australians in and no one would ever get it back.

13:29I think that's still here and I meet it in some of... This is the really interesting thing. The young people who have given up on mainstream media, I have to say with great respect to the ABC, no one under 30 is listening to you anymore. But I meet them in the streets. They're restless. They're uncertain. Many of them are not showing good numbers on the mental health scores and the depression, anxiety, even self-harm. That's something that we should be hanging our heads in shame about as a society, but the best of them. And I think this is where Jordan Peterson deserves so much credit. He's let us have his argument.

14:09He said to the young men, hey, the culture that's saying to you you're toxic just because you're male is a culture that's got it wrong because you're not. You're not who you should be. We all need to hear that. None of us are the people we know we ought to be and should be. But we're not as bad as the zeitgeist would have us believe either. What do you make of how that scaled across the West? Because it's the same thing. Very similar. Very similar. This is an interesting thing, isn't it? The whole victimhood movie thing, victimhood thing in the West, is spread well beyond the West. You think Superman 1 and Superman 2.

14:45Superman 1 is just a hero. He's just a tough guy. He hasn't got issues. Superman 2's got lots of issues. He's still a hero, but he's got lots of issues. And, you know, this sort of, this idea, it's culturally, I mean, America's so dominant, of course, particularly in the arts, whatever, of victimhood spread out. Dare I say it? Maybe Hollywood should have a good look at itself. I think that ship has long sailed, but we're having a democratization of everything right now between AI and the ability to shoot shows like this on way less equipment for way less budget. I mean, Hollywood will become increasingly, increasingly irrelevant, which I - And the mainstream media, and they know it.

15:26And that just means they're responding precisely the wrong way, a lot of the mainstream media. Why do you think they are doing that? I mean, why do they never look in the mirror and say, boy, maybe if we switch things up a little bit, we wouldn't be in the precarious financial position we're in or losing our ratings? I mean, why? Because it never happens. I mean, across the board, it seems like they never do that. Although CBS has just done something different in America. Did you hear about this? No, what have they done? So CBS in America, Paramount, which owns CBS, purchased the Free Press, which is Barry Weiss's online outfit.

15:58I did see that for a lot of money. 150 million bucks. And she's going to now run CBS News. That's an interesting move because she's a centrist who came from the left New York Times. And I think if she can recalibrate what they're doing there and the ratings start coming back, I actually think that might get our mainstream to come back. But we shall salute. Yeah. Well, the biggest selling newspaper in Australia by a very considerable margin, I think, would be The Australian. And I think you'd have to say its journalism, broadly speaking, is a notch above. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why it still sells well.

16:39But it also, of course, gives rise to the thing that you've just touched on, the podcasting sort of game. Obviously massively influential. Now, the chairman of the ABC here was unimpressed with the idea that Joe Rogan could host Trump for a two - or three-hour conversation, and he thought that was appalling. He should have been asking the question, how come the ABC can't do this? What has changed? Why are people flocking to listen to Joe Rogan and his guests? And his guests. People forget that. Right. People don't come and want to hear John Anderson. They want to hear the people I'm talking to, I hope and assume.

17:17A little of both. Give yourself some credit. Give yourself. Because people are interested in content. And this is one of the great mistakes that the leaders of the zeitgeist, if I can use that word, the spirit of the age, because I don't like that old left and right language very much. Yeah, I know. I'm trying to drop it as much as possible. The spirit of the age is good. Frank Ferruity framed it first for me. He was known as a bomb-throwing lefty from the 60s in Great Britain. He's now Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, I think, at Kent University. But he first framed it for me. He said that whole language now doesn't work.

17:55It's really a debate between what Ayan Hirsi Ali called it, I suppose, democracy and democracy, or calm reason on the one hand, fact-based, after the evidence, you know, logical debate, finding a consensus versus emotions and feelings. And I just think that is so dangerous. So you and I are playing in the podcast space, and we both know, though, that like everything else, that can be a force for terrific good and terrific bad. It's a cesspool out there. It really is. And now AI is going to make it worse because you don't know who you're really listening to and what truth is. And that's where trust comes in.

18:37And we can only hope and pray that there are enough people out there that can be trusted, who are putting out enough good material for those who are tapping in and listening to be able to distinguish what stacks up and what doesn't. It's interesting because I feel a serious pressure around that. I feel it's incumbent on me to tell the truth. I'm going to make mistakes, obviously. But as someone that people tune into, I feel that pressure. But I think there's a lot of people in this space that don't feel that pressure. They just feel I'm talking and I'm just saying whatever I want and it doesn't matter and I'm just going to go ahead and do it.

19:11And that's become a new challenge now. We escaped the centralized system and now we're in the decentralized carnival in some sense. I agree with you entirely. And I think there's a mainstream media parallel still. There are some outlets that you can still trust. There are many that, you know, are really just being driven from an ideological position. You get into the podcasting world, same applies, except that, of course, you've got some podcasters, some communicators who are really still motivated by the almighty dollar. And that's where... One thing I'll say in this country that's, I think, an admirable part of the Australian quality People can smell bulldust a mile off.

19:54Most Australians still have a nose for what's genuine and authentic, which I think is why they're so utterly frustrated with our politics at the moment. They don't see the sincerity there. You know, here's a thought for you, Dave. In many ways in the West, we hate the value system now. Okay, so we've overthrown our sort of Christian past. We've given away on reason and the Enlightenment to a large extent. we've gone for, it's all about you, radical individualism. We raise our young people with the idea that they're the centre of the universe. That's our sort of cultural moorings, you know, radical individualism.

20:30And when I say our politicians behaving in a way that's consistent with that, we say, hey, don't they get it? It's not about them, it's about us. Right. Do you see the point I'm sort of making? Yeah. Hey, I've got the campaign brief ready, built from last quarter's data and the competitive landscape. Approved. Oh, agents, where would we be without you? Somewhere with a lot more tabs open. Create your first Monday agent in minutes at monday.com. So how do you then tell a better story, as you often talk about, and that I think is really what brought you and Jordan together that became sort of the genesis of what ARC is.

21:05Tell a better story, but then to connect this to something that we talked about a moment ago when we were slightly doing the interviewee, interviewer differently. How do you take the secular values that a state should have, add some logic and reason into that, and then also not disconnect it from the transcendent or the Christian values or however you want to describe that? It's a very, very good question. You see, that's one of the reasons why having participated in government and not for a moment denying its importance, we were a reforming government. People have probably forgotten, but we had a very bad government in the early 70s.

21:46Australian living standards and take-home pay flatlined in real terms for 20 years. It only got moving again when we did some hard-nosed economic reform, wound back debt, got productivity up, reformed the tax system, and suddenly things took off. And the American press were describing us as a class act. I remember that at the time. And it made a real difference. And one of the problems was, we touched on this earlier, I actually think John Howard made the job of being Prime Minister look easy. It's not. It's unbelievably tough. And he was extremely good at it. There's just no two ways about it.

22:22When you sat beside him as a deputy and you know how he reads the Australian people, he has a sense for good policy. He knows how to lead and how far you can go. People just assumed, oh, we can have John Howard light. So they went to the man who's now your ambassador in America and he floundered. There's no other way of putting it. He floundered. He was not John Howard Light. And it's a tough gig. So how do you separate all of that out? Well, I think unfortunately, I heard an American say this, it's not an original quote, when you take God out of being over government, government becomes God. We've made government God.

23:03Well, what's government? Whatever the system, including in democracy, actually it's just people. What's the problem with people? They're flawed. Politicians are all, just like every other member of the community, a mixture of what Pascal called the glory and the scum. We touched on it a moment ago. Some of them are just mercantile. Some of them are just driven by power or by bucks or whatever it is, thinking they're going to be attractive to the opposite sex if they're a good enough politician. Others genuinely want to serve. So I do worry in this country we've lost the distinction. But to come back to the point here, I have a view that government's there to do the things that we agree we have to do collectively and no more.

23:45That's another way of saying I actually think, and Americans understand this better than Australians, that our fundamental freedoms in a democracy like yours and mine, yours is a republic, I know ours is a democracy, but for the purposes of this exercise, they are freedom of conscience and belief, They are freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, to meet or not meet, you know, with others. That's critical to freedom. And freedom to use your property rights, own and disperse them accordingly, you know, including your brain power to earn a living, you know. They shouldn't be taken away by some futile overlord.

24:25So if they are essentially invested in the individual, the individual then should choose, have say. It's not for governments, as happened here during COVID. and say, oh, we'll give you some freedom. It's not in the government's gift. They might withdraw them by consent for a while, like drawing the curtains during the Blitz in London during the war because it's in everybody's interest that we agree that we do that and allow governments to have that power for a while. But this idea that you'll give them the ability to creep that power is disastrous. So governments should be downstream of the culture, and culture is always downstream of beliefs.

24:59Okay, so let's stick with that for a minute. So when we in America saw what was going on here during COVID, do you directly connect that? Well, I guess you do. You directly connect that to some disconnect with belief. Then how do you reinvigorate that? I mean, if you were still a politician now, how would you do it? Because that's different than being a broadcaster and a communicator. Well, you're pretty safe. I'll never be a politician again. Nobody'd vote for me. But look, I see some really fine men and women who are not getting much credit at all at the moment, who are trying to do just that.

25:38And I'm not sure how you break through. Maybe it's got to get even worse before it gets better. But we do need some sort of wake up call and hopefully before it's too late. That's been the history of the Western democracies. You know, I mean, Britain put off fronting up to the evils of Nazism. Well, so did all of the West until it was so late, it was almost too late. They woke up in time, but only just and only under strong leadership. But is that just baked in that that's what humans will do? We will just wait until it's too late? I suspect that. I mean, historically, can you think of an instance where people saw it and then like, ah, we still got time, but let's take care of it now?