Trump Vs. Pope Leo, the Real Threat of Ai & Fraying Social Fabric | Bishop Robert Barron

25:30Obviously here in Minnesota, where as we speak, it sounds like quite literally right now. I don't even know if you saw Twitter this morning that there's a big raid going on, and there's obviously been a lot of stuff around the Somali community and all that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I made a statement along with my brother Bishop from Minnesota a while ago about it. You know, delineating it along these lines. Country has a right to defend its borders. I mean, so I don't subscribe to open border policy. That's against Catholic teaching. It's very clear in our social teaching. Country's got a right to defend its borders.

25:59Got a right to defend and enforce its immigration laws. Absolutely. And I think there was, certainly during the Biden years, that we became very open-ended about that. And that's not been good for our country. I mean, again, as a pastor, I'm well aware of the fact that human trafficking and all sorts of issues happen along an open border because of an open border. So I affirm all of that. At the same time, whatever enforcement we do must be done humanely. And so the bishops have insisted upon that. More to it, going after criminals, yeah. And I think almost all Catholics would agree that's a good way for the government to enforce this matter.

26:38Going after all people who are in the country in undocumented status through ICE deportations, I would suggest that's too blunt an instrument. I'd prefer a political solution to that. That's how I would tend to delineate that manner. Now, you get down to the ground, and then you've got people who have to make practical prudential judgments. But speaking generally, I would say that's how I would probably delineate it. Yeah. And in terms of if someone came to you, let's say someone came to you for guidance and they were illegal, do you have a—I suppose you have two duties there, one a religious duty and then one as an American citizen.

27:18Yeah. To balance those two things. Right. As a pastor, you always want to help people as much as you can. And we inform people in all of our dioceses in Minnesota of their basic rights. So we let all people in the country know what they have a right to. If someone is a serious criminal, I think I would recommend they turn themselves in. I mean, it really is a criminal situation. But again, I think the general matter should be handled more politically than through ICE interventions. Yeah. So let's back up a little bit because we touched on it for a moment and early in our first hour. But let's talk about the interreligious relationships right now.

27:54As we talked about earlier, I've never felt any of that conflict between Christians and Jews and any of those things. There's some weird stuff happening online. You were part of the Religious – what was it called? Liberty Commission. Religious Liberty Commission. So let's do Christian and Jewish relations first. How would you grade the state of that at the moment? Well, since Vatican II, let's say, there's been a massive improvement in Catholic-Jewish relations. The document Nostra Aetate Vatican II was kind of groundbreaking. Since then, there have been all kinds of organizations, institutions, study groups, etc., that bring Jews and Catholics together.

28:39I was briefly part of one under Cardinal Dolan. It just became too hard for me to travel from the West Coast. But I've always enjoyed those conversations. The deep Catholic conviction is that we're all spiritually Semite. It was Pius XI said that. And he's dead right. You can't be a Christian without being Jewish in one fundamental way. We come up out of Judaism. We're conditioned by Judaism. Jesus is a Jew. Paul is a Jew. Paul announces Jesus as the fulfillment of Israel, so not in opposition to Israel. Paul would never have said, oh, I've joined a new religion. Paul would never have said that.

29:16Paul would have said, I've discovered the fulfillment of my Judaism. I want you to know about it, too. So I think since Vatican II— And certainly wouldn't have tried to convert people by the sword. No, no, no, no, no. I would have recognized the primacy, in our language, primacy of conscience and so on. But I think since Vatican II and Nostra Tati, there's been a huge improvement there. And when it comes to Israel, the Catholic position is to recognize the right of Israel to exist, and always have deep respect for that. were opposed to all forms of anti-Semitism. We've been very clear. Go back now.

29:50Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict, I mean, all of them. Francis. Very strong against anti-Semitism. We don't hold, as some Christians do, that the state of Israel, the modern state of Israel, is the fulfillment of biblical prophecy. So there's that issue, which can tend to make the present-day Jewish state immune from criticism. Well, we don't hold to that. We would not say Ezekiel was from a distance seeing the modern state of Israel. So we can raise questions about, we can criticize, you know, Israeli public policy. So I think that's the Catholic view is yes. I think that would be the Israeli policy too, if you've ever argued about politics within Israel.

30:30Yeah. But there are certain Christians that would hold, and certain Jews too, that the modern state of Israel is what Isaiah was envisioning. We don't hold to that. And let's do the slightly trickier one, let's say, which is Catholic and Islamic relations. When I was in Chicago, so under Cardinal George, who's kind of a hero to me, it's sad to me that people are probably forgetting about Cardinal George. He's been gone for about 10 years, but he was a great figure in the American church. And we went every year. I went with him to the Iftar dinner, which was held at the conclusion of the Ramadan fast, right?

31:06And it was always a great gathering of Muslims in Chicago, and they typically would have the meal, and then they'd read something from the Koran that had to do with Jesus, because Jesus is featured in the Koran, or Mary. And then one year, I remember, I gave a paper at one of those about Averroes and Avicenna, these two medieval Muslim scholars that Thomas Aquinas relied upon. So those were all gestures on his part toward a peaceful, civil conversation with Islam. Trust me, Cardinal George didn't think Islam is correct theologically. He didn't. He was a convinced Catholic Christian. But he was equally convinced it was very important that he be there for those gatherings.

31:51That would be my take on it. Yeah. Is there a difference fundamentally, though, just in terms of the desire to have other people submit? I mean, that in essence, you know, Christians right now, generally speaking, would love to convert people or show people away, et cetera. Generally are not doing it by violent means or whatever, where there is a different version happening with a certain version of Islam. I mean, even I'm trying to sort of dance around in a politically correct way possible. We're against that, you know, obviously. Now, how do you oppose that? You oppose it through argument. You oppose it through public debate and so on.

32:26But, yeah, we're against that, any form of coercion. John Paul II, again, said we propose, we don't impose. Now, God knows we have done some imposing over the centuries, you know, if you look back at Catholic history. But at our best, he's articulated that principle. We propose Christ, as Paul did. We don't impose Christ. So we're against the imposition of religion. What do you make of how you've been able to spread the word through the online situation? Because obviously this is a completely different thing that didn't exist 20 years ago is going to look very different 20 years from now. Yeah.

33:00So we're at a unique moment. It's a grace, I think. You know, I started as a professor. So I got a doctorate in theology, started writing books. I was teaching at the seminary, writing learned articles, that sort of thing. And I envision that as the trajectory of my life, that I would probably go into a university and get a chair of theology someplace. That's what I envisioned. And then late 90s, early aughts, conviction comes upon me that we should use the means of communication we have. And Fulton Sheen did it a long time ago, then we kind of dropped the ball. Why aren't we doing this? So I just started.

33:39I just called this local radio station in Chicago, WGN, big radio station. And I just said, how much would it cost for me to get on a sermon program? And they said, well, at 5.15 on Sunday morning, we got a 15-minute slot. And for$50 ,000, we can let you have that slot. So I went to my local parish, and I told them just that story. They did what you're doing. They laughed. And then they gave me the money. And so my first move was to get on the radio. From the radio came a website to house the sermons, right? I barely knew what a website was. And then it just grew in a way that I think showed the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

34:19And then the social media emerged. When I first started, It was still radio, TV, basically. But then the social media, and I thought, all right, all right, this is the moment. If Paul were around, he'd use this. You know, if Fulton Sheen had this, he'd use it. A means 24-7, 365 to get the message out to young people that would never darken the door of our churches, but they do live in this space. So it was a pure experiment. I started doing movie reviews, and I would just start talking about the culture and is there a religious dimension. We'd get a few hundred views in the beginning, and I would get on there and engage people.

34:59They'd critique me, and I would answer them, and that got the audience a bit bigger. And then it just has grown. I do think it's a grace. I think the Lord gave us a means to communicate when we really needed it because the young people were disaffiliating. They're not coming to church. So we can have all the programs we want. They're not going to come. But we can invade their space. And then it just happened. Tons of people then began to say, oh, yeah, I ran across you. Oh, yeah, I found your movie review. Oh, I watched this. And then we did this series, Catholicism, that was based on Kenneth Clark.

35:36He did that great civilization series, right, when I was a kid. I thought, okay, something like that for Catholicism, right, go around the world and I'd show the beauty of Catholicism, I would talk about it. So we did that and that was kind of a breakthrough. PBS picked that up and then it kind of put me on the map. Do you think it matters if people get their religion in different ways in that, you know, if you look at overall, let's say church or synagogue attendance, generally it's down at the moment and a lot of churches and synagogues are being replaced by mosques all over the western world.

36:07But if they're just, if people are maybe not showing up to congregate the way they used to, but now have the technological means to still get the ideas across. Do you think that that's an even break? No. It's a seed. I've always seen this work as a sowing of seeds, and they're planted. The idea, and I speak as a Catholic bishop, is to get them to Mass and to the Eucharist and to the community. That's the goal, right? And it does happen. People, they'll start with a video I watched, and it kind of intrigued me, and it led me here and then there and then here and there, and then finally I'm joining the church.

36:42That's when I'm happy. When people tell me that, they say, because of you, I'm now becoming a Catholic. Good, that's what I want. But it's a propodutic, you know, it's a preparatory move that we're doing and most needed. We talked a little bit about how we were both at Charlie Kirk's Memorial. I have never in my life, there were about 100 ,000 people there in that stadium, I have never felt anything like that. I don't know that I ever will feel anything like that. You've obviously spoken and attended all sorts of things with thousands of deep spiritual people. Had you ever experienced anything like that?

37:17It was unique, yeah. And I didn't know what to expect. I was invited to come. I didn't speak yet. I was happy I didn't speak because I just was able to attend, you know. But I had a very good seat right near the front. And, you know, I know what a Catholic funeral mass looks like. And will this be like a service or is it a political rally or what is this? And everyone was trying to figure that out, which I think led to a lot of what the feeling was in the room because nobody knew what it was exactly. And it turned out to be, I would say, about 90 % religion and 10 % politics. And what I found most moving was the number of politicians that came out and talked about Jesus and talked about their faith and talked about how Charlie influenced them to read the Bible more.

37:59So it was very much a religious celebration, and there was such a spirit in the room. What saddens me, and we've talked about now a lot, is what's happened since then. And with the death of Charlie, what was there in that room that day, physically, all these people together, has splintered to some degree. But the day itself was extraordinary, and it was Charlie as a spiritual sort of figure. No, it took me by surprise. It's not what I expected at all. And it was also longer. I was thinking, okay, it would be a couple hours, you know, I got there about nine. I left at five. It was like an eight-hour event.

38:39Now, it wasn't burdensome at all. It didn't seem long to me. I enjoyed it very much. But it was the row of politicians coming out and talking about their faith that had an impact on me. Yeah. Now that Charlie's gone, and we've seen some of this fighting on the right, and a certain amount is politics and a certain amount is religion, How do you think we arbitrage those two? How do we fix that? I would go back to gospel basics and go back to American basics, those two things coming together. I think that's what Charlie represented. And he saw what I said earlier, and I believe it. The more authentically Christian you are, the more authentically American you can be and vice versa.

39:23Because those two things came up out of the same soil in a way. And it's when you're trying to be one or the other, maybe, that trouble ensues. The more committed you are to Christianity, the more you're committed to the great American values and our civic conversation, and vice versa. The more you're committed to that, the more congruent it is with religion. That's what he embodied, I think. And then his, again, dying with the microphone in his hand, not a gun or a sword. He died with an instrument of communication in his hand. talk to each other, talk to each other. When you see so many people go off into conspiratorial elements about either Charlie or about Trump or about just any of the litany of conspiracies that are existing right now, I do see a connection between the type of mind that goes to that line of thinking and somebody who's disconnected from something beyond them in that they're just sort of, if you just exist in, wake up, here's the news, tomorrow's the news, the next day's the news, and the next is that eventually there will be a total disconnect with reality.

40:29So do you see that, the sort of conspiratorial mind versus the believing mind, if that's a fair way to frame it? Yeah, because it's a search for meaning, right? And so if you can't find it where you should find it, you'll invent it. And so conspiracy theories are invented patterns of meaning. If you're grounded in proper patterns of meaning, and I've named two of them, authentic Christianity and authentic Americanism are both patterns of meaning. If you bracket those, you'll start finding them or inventing them where they don't exist. But also that falling apart. See, the devil has two names in the Bible.

41:08Satanos means the accuser, and that's very much alive. The other is diabolos. Diabolos means to scatter in Greek. So whenever you see scattering and accusing, that's the dark power. And it's all over the place. The Internet is the devil's playground because both those things happen on the Internet like crazy. Accusation, accusation, accusation. And mobs can form, not just overnight. They can form like in five minutes. And then they have the scattering quality. What gathers people certain fundamental values and then the ability to talk to each other? That's Charlie Kirk. That's a unifying power.

41:49That's what's in danger. We've talked, obviously, a little bit about how you've grown your channel in the age of the Internet. We're about to be on the precipice of everything changing in a way that I think will be utterly unimaginable via AI and robotics. Are you concerned that that will now enter, just bring us to a new frontier of where religion will just be hit in 20 different ways? Do you think there will be a way to integrate those two things? I don't know. I mean, everyone asks about AI today, and I'm always a little bit at sea when it comes to that. I get the economic danger. I get the danger to human dignity, you know, if AI starts taking over all aspects of life.

42:30I hate the fact, they're demonstrating this now, that more and more preachers and priests are using AI to create sermons. I hate that. They're doing our thinking for us. Because what's thinking all about? It's about the discovery of patterns of meaning and learning how to navigate through them and to arrange them in a hierarchy. That's what healthy thinking is about. If you outsource that to AI, then you become a cipher yourself. So that's the greatest spiritual danger, psychological danger. In some ways, I think, oh, thank God I'm the age I am and I'm not all that conditioned by it. I suppose we all use it.

43:09Every time a Google search, it's kind of an AI thing. We all use it. But it does concern me, yeah, the spiritual compromise involved in it. Yeah, I just think if people think that, you know, we had the printing press one day and that changed the world and then the Internet changed the world, we're on the verge of something that is going to be that amplified by, I don't know. And in a bad way or a way we can't entirely see at this point. Yeah. Well, I suppose we'll have to be the deciders. Yeah. No, it does concern me, but I kind of turn away from AI because I don't feel like I know enough about it.

43:44But it does frighten me kind of from the outside. What are you most – I mean, I think I have a sense of the answer to this, but what are you most concerned about right now? I mean, I think my guess is your answer would be something about the loss of religion, but can you give me a sort of more granular version of that? Well, wokeism, generally speaking. I'm a great opponent of wokeism because in all its different incarnations, the divisiveness of it. and the binary quality of wokeism, of oppressor and oppressed, the bracketing of objective value. There's the influence of Nietzsche, I think. Nietzsche has a lot of disciples in the 20th century, including Michel Foucault, who maybe is the biggest influence on wokeism, I think, where everything's seen in terms of power relationships.

44:26Any claim to truth is just an aggressive move. The deep suspicion, it was Paul Ricoeur that identified, he called the masters of suspicion that lie behind so much of modern consciousness. They were Nietzsche and they were Freud and Marx. These three figures that said, well, I know it looks like this, but what's really going on underneath is Nietzsche, its power, Marx, its economic exploitation, Freud, its sexual whatever. But the danger with that is it divides us, it turns the world usually into some kind of oppressive relationship, relationship, it brackets objective value, it sort of undermines the claim to, no, that's really true and good and beautiful.

45:11Oh, no, no, it's something else. That instinct, which is basic to wokeism, is a very serious spiritual problem. And then it'll manifest itself ultimately in hostility toward religion, because see, religion represents the opposite claim. It speaks for the objectivity of the good, the true, and the beautiful grounded in the supreme good, true, and beautiful, which is God. And that's why I think it's very clear wokeism is constantly opposed to religion. Wokeism is always antipathetic to a religion. So what do you make of the clergy, be it Catholic, Jewish, whatever, that have embraced wokeism and ushered it into these institutions?

45:51Because we see a lot of it. It's a giant mistake, and it's born of a well-intentioned kind of illusion, namely, we go, oh, wokeism just means I'm concerned about social justice. It does not. And I've been saying that over and over again. I love social justice. I love it. It's great. We're all for it. Martin Luther King was for it. He wasn't woke. You're talking about the march to equality, right? When you say social justice in a positive sense, you mean a march towards equal rights for all. Yeah, equal opportunity. I will judge you not by the color of your skin, but by the content of your character.

46:26That's what I'm for. That's the best of America. It's the best of Christianity. King is a good example because King effortlessly wove them together. So I have a dream speech, effortlessly biblical to America, a biblical reference to an American hymn, Abraham Lincoln to Isaiah. That's the best of America when you can do that effortlessly. That's fallen apart to a degree. But I would say wokeism is what concerns me the most, And it's a spiritual sickness. And wokeism is the popularization of European critical theory. And critical theory is a very bad acid. And it tore away at some of the foundations of European society.

47:12And it's happening in our society. That's what worries me, both as an American and as a Catholic bishop. So when you've seen other clergy bring this into the fold, I assume you warn them privately or you have some discussions about it. I mean, generally, do you feel like they think, OK, we have to let a certain amount of this in because we quite literally need people showing up and this is attractive to a certain set of people. So there's pressures. There's quite, you know, there's pressures related to I have to keep the doors open and offer the thing of the day versus fight all those bad ideas.

47:43Right. But we should stand and thwart it and we should not be seduced by it. And that's why I've spoken about it, written about it. Certainly would urge fellow clergy. But I get it. They're drawn in by the seductive claim. that, oh, no, this is just to care for the poor and care for more justice. But it's not. But do you think there's also a numbers game related to that, that people have to keep the doors open? And if there's new ideas that seem popular, that even clergy wouldn't be of any denomination, wouldn't be impervious to that. Maybe, yeah. But they should be attentive to the heart of the matter.

48:15And we don't play the numbers game that way. We play the Jesus game. We want to stay with Jesus. and the great moral spiritual system that has emerged out of him. That's what we're for. And if the numbers fall off because we're for that, well, then so be it, right? We shouldn't worry about that. I want to get to saying that we almost got to in the first hour, but sort of the trajectory of Donald Trump as a spiritual figure, I think, is extremely interesting because most people, I think, would say, you know, he pretty much was a New York Democrat, sort of moderate liberal for most of his life, you know, likely had sex out of marriage and all sorts of things that wouldn't be thought of as traditionally, you know, let's say Christian conservative at least.

49:02Then we have this trajectory over the last 10 years and he goes through all the trials and tribulations, assassination attempts, you know, trying to take away his businesses, get him all the impeachments, everything else. Like, now it seems to me he does talk about his role as, like, he seems to understand something about his role in life that is now connected to something beyond him. Do you think that's a fair assessment? Yeah. And again, I don't know him personally very well, though I've met him now a couple times in connection with this Religious Liberty Commission. When I met him the first time, I said to him, Mr.

49:37President, religious people in this country are very grateful to you for this commission. And I've said publicly, too, that he's done more about that issue than any president in my lifetime. So there's those concrete sort of policy moves he's made. And I respect that very much. And, you know, look, from pro-life perspective, as I said, I never dreamed in my lifetime Roe v. Wade would be overturned. It was overturned because of Trump appointments to the Supreme Court. So, I mean, all of that, I think, is tremendous. It's a plus. I think what you're getting at is the post-Butler experience, right?

50:09And now as we record these words, there's the third attempt to assassinate him just happened. I think it did change him. And I'm getting that not just my own impression but those who know him a lot better than I do have witnessed to that. That he's more aware of a kind of religious mission that should be informing his work. So, yeah, I've sensed that in him, I think. That refresh you've been putting off until the right deal came along? It's here. Wayfair's Black Friday in July sale is happening now, so you can finally get the style you've been waiting for for less. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture.

50:45Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space. Plus, free shipping. Black Friday in July ends July 27th. Shop today at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Does that, even if he himself is not a believer, I don't know what he is. I don't want to put words in his mouth. But even if he is not a believer in the most strict sense, let's say, if he is able to take that upon him, you know, I saw the interview with Norah O'Donnell right after this last assassination attempt. And he said something to the effect of, well, you know, if I wasn't doing anything good, then this wouldn't happen.

51:19That he seems to understand what his role now is as a human being in this moment. Do you feel that would be a complete life, even if his religious beliefs never got to where, say, you would want them to be? No, not complete. But it's in the, think of the Temple of Jerusalem, you have the Holy of Holies, and you've got these outer courts, the courts of the Gentiles and so on. But is he getting closer to a religious perspective? Yeah, probably. But no, I wouldn't be satisfied that that's where he should end up. But I think he's sincere, I do, in his keener sense of the importance of the spiritual.

52:00Even most of that thing recently where he said about getting to heaven, you know, I don't know if I'll ever get to heaven. Well, he said that at Charlie's memorial, if you remember. He said something to that effect. And then he said something like, he said something like Charlie was always looking up there. I don't look up there as much or something like that, which I thought was kind of fascinating to be there and do that because as you pointed out. Like humble in a way, right? Well, because he had all of these politicians doing what you said, which was talking about religion. He gets up there.

52:27It's a little harder for him to do that. And his was a little more political, but then said something very true or very self-effacing. Self-effacing, yeah, and humble. Yeah, it could be. But I'm reluctant to say any more because I just don't know. I don't know his inner life or his mind or heart. Some people that I've met I think do know him better, and they've witnessed to that. So, you know, I'll take that seriously. But I think the public actions, like especially this commission, which has done good work, I think that's a very positive thing he's done, and the overturning of Roe v. Wade. You know, very important.

53:00Let me ask you one other thing, which is one of the things that I find lately in my life is that people ask me, you know, how I'm doing, what's going on, whatever. I always say, you know, what goes on in the four walls of my house is great. My life is good. I have a great relationship. I have great kids. My colleagues are good. My work is good. I feel satisfied. I'm doing interesting things like having these conversations. And then I always feel that there's this piece where I have to say something like, but the world is crazy and everyone knows everything is nuts and politics is wacky or something.

53:28that in some sense, if you were just to say, boy, you know, things are pretty good and I'm doing the best I can and I'm grinding along and I feel fulfilled. But in some sense, that almost feels like an incomplete answer in a way to what people might want. Right. What do you think that is? It's something that I've been kicking around a lot lately. Well, it's probably just, it's just awakening in you that sense of the public responsibility. I mean, so we all have our personal lives and we're conducting those as well as we can, they should be informed by values, moral and spiritual, and that's good.

54:00And you're witnessing to that, like, okay, I've got this together. But I've also got a public responsibility. I'm also part of this body politic. And, you know, you and I are both very interested in political things and cultural matters. And so, yeah, I've got to be concerned about that too. You know, keeping things in right order, I suppose. But yeah, I've got that sense of a certain responsibility to the public order. And now through voting and all that, sure. But also through, you know, some of the work I do and commenting and writing and speaking. How heavy does that weigh on you? I'm curious, because you and I do think have a very similar outlook on the world.

54:38And I find, as I said, the things that I can control in my life to the extent that I can control them are pretty good. Then there's all the other issues, you know, the big political issues and all that stuff that you can't really control. I do find if I don't have a little discipline with my mind, I can get lost in all of that and then forget about all of the good stuff there. That, I would say, is in some sense my, for me, it's like my biggest existential challenge. How do I balance that I'm concerned about the world versus the immediacy of my life? Well, yeah, I think for me, the fact that I'm bishop of the Diocese of Winona, Rochester, which is southern Minnesota, and a lot of my, most of my life.

55:20This is the exception, this sort of thing. Most of my life is getting in my car and going to a parish and doing a confirmation, going to the chancery, having meetings about the finance council, and going to the personnel meeting and assigning priests. That's most of my life. That's my family, if you want. That's my more domestic responsibility as bishop. And then there's this, which I do think God has allowed me to have. He wants me to have this wider audience, but But probably the diocese keeps me balanced or keeps me grounded. A few times I've had conversations with people, and I'll say, would it be better, you think, if I just did this sort of work?

55:58And the answer I always get is, no, no, no, no, no. It's really, really good that you've got this. You're grounded in the diocese. You're bishop of this local church. And I think that's really right. Right. Right. It gives you a little both, basically. So there's a push and pull in your personal life and in your public life. I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy these conversations, and I certainly hope and I will challenge you that it will not be another six years or whatever it's been. Well, I'll come to Miami next winter when the four feet of snow descend upon Minneapolis. Why don't we do twice a year?

56:33I'll come to Minneapolis and Rochester for the winters. Fine. You'll do the summer. You'll do your winters. Beautiful. You're on. In Miami. It's a pleasure. Dave, God bless you. Thank you. All right.