A Hill to Die On: Running Myths

0:09Welcome to The Running Public with Bracken Crocker and Kirk DeWint. It's Tuesday, folks, and you know what that means. Training Tuesday.

0:15Brian McKenzie: We are going to take every rabbit hole, follow tangents, use useless metaphors, get lost in the weeds. This is Training Tuesday.

0:33When you're ready to take your training or racing to the next level, go to the running public.com. We have both monthly subscription training plans,$19.99 a month. And Bracken and I both offer one-on-one customized coaching. Again, go to the running public.com and check out our offerings. Welcome back. The gang is back together. It feels good to be not covered in dirt, sleeping in my own bed. modern comforts talking to my friend Bracken about running.

1:04Brian McKenzie: I believe it. There's nothing better than coming home to a home and a bed that you love. Yeah, I agree with that. Do you love your bed? I do. I know you love your home. Do you love your bed? I do love my bed. Yes. Do you love your bed? I do. I don't know if we got lucky or what, but it is just the perfect mattress for both of us. Can't beat it. But I'm back. I'm back to routine. I took nine or eight days off of running on it, and now I'm ramping back up this week, which I'll talk about in a second. But you have something to say, don't you, of interest? Yeah, I guess the listener showed up. I complained about how I don't feel good in hydration packs, and I got some messages, Kirk, and then I got some packs sent my way.

1:53Wow. Oh, so we need to complain about all items that we could wear while running and see where it goes. Brayden right away is like, you should complain that you don't have a fast enough race car.

2:05Brian McKenzie: So tell me about it. I mean, there's not a lot more to say than that, but people have been super generous. And then just a lot of messages of like, hey, I've got this here. Do you want me to send it to you? You can try it out. and uh anyway just it's it's always feels like a like this a reassuring moment when people just offer things because they care or because they can and they don't have to so thank you all i just had the conversation with jess like last night or the night before i think nobody cares about anything like you still in cv like i'm not even gonna bother people with this story because nobody cares i'm not gonna tell people about my problems or my victory because nobody cares and that's really not true but it's why i don't post on social media much anymore it's why it's like i think people don't care because so i'll just live life and it'll be fine but they do care that's endearing and you can live life and be fine but it's endearing when they care okay so do you did you get any new vests uh or are they on there's some that you've not tried that are going to be worth your experimenting i think it's all worth experimenting because everything's so personal.

3:10Brian McKenzie: It's kind of like shoes. You get a shoe and you're like, this does not work for me because blank. But if you were a person who liked blank, this would be phenomenal for you. That's how I feel like these packs are. So whether or not they ever work for me, I'll be able to recommend them to the right athlete in the future, which so much of the conversations we have with our athletes who run ultra centers around getting the kit right. And the more knowledge we have, the better we can help people that aren't just our archetype. I'm curious also after you put the Mega Blast on Blast on here, how many people ended up purchasing it.

3:51I'm one of them. So it's in route to my house. I had two screenshots from athletes I work with that said, thanks, Bracken, of their order confirmation of the Mega Blast. And so you owe some people some money. I really should have affiliate links, Kirk. We should. We really need to make money on this thing. And we are bad at that.

4:14Brian McKenzie: From time to time, I hear someone says one of two things. Like, would you partner with a brand? Or you should just make your own. You should start your own shoe company or vest company or a shoe for people like you or a vest. And it's like, well, I can't commit to one. No, I can't partner with a brand, like a shoe brand. I couldn't sign with a company. because I want all the shoes. The vest that I would create would be so particular to me that it would be like 3 % of runners would like it. No, I want all the things. Okay. So we don't want to become zillionaires by creating an absolute bulletproof product of any type.

4:52You sure about that?

4:53Brian McKenzie: There has to be something like that out there, but it's not a shoe. I'll take a thousandaire. I might be a thousandaire. I think we both are. We're doing all right. Big time. All right. I'm going to tell people something about my ramping back up into training that I think maybe, I don't know, somebody will glean something from maybe. So I purposely, without injury, although I'm pretty beat up with this plantar fasciitis and it's already back after a few runs, I was on my feet so much on my trip. I mean, I was hiking. I pulled two deer out of the woods. I was in the bluff country. No, I didn't give it a break, right?

5:32And so it didn't really get much better, but I'm going to be on top of that here this fall and winter anyways. So it took eight days off, but I was active like, you know, with the hiking component, et cetera. But now I'm ramping back into run training again. I plan on some sort of build towards something. Clearly they announced Minneapolis high rocks that has been put on my radar immediately. I will also say, what's the date on that? Like first weekend in May or something. That's good timing. I know. I don't know when tickets are released. If somebody knows, let me know. But also, so I got washed out like three days on my hunting vacation.

6:10It was just downpouring. I think you guys got it as well. It rained straight for like three days. So I couldn't be in the woods. So I went to this local Cresco Fitness Center. It's the only one in town. It's got a track that's - I don't know Cresco. Cresco, Iowa.

6:24Brian McKenzie: Oh, I thought that was the brand of fitness center. No, Cresco is a little town. anyways and so I had time to kill I was a downpour outside so I wasn't gonna be in the woods and so I went there and got a strength session in which is the only workout I did I think the whole week but they had a ski erg and a rower there right and I was like yeah I'm just gonna dabble here a little bit and so I hopped on the ski and cranked and I was like I'll just work moderately and see what my pace is and then I'll get on the row again because I haven't been on those machines in a while. Guess what was glaringly obvious on the ski erg that started burning and went on me first?

7:02It was by far led the way.

7:04Brian McKenzie: I'm trying to think what mine are. It's, I don't know, lower back or grip? Core. I thought you were the core guy. I was the core guy, but I had like this lower abdomen strain and I haven't done a structured core movement in like a year and a half. Well, tells me something, Kirk. What? You're rowing semi-correctly or skiing semi-correctly, I should say, if your core is given out on you. Yeah. Everything else was working well, but it was like a visceral burn center punch core. And I was like, wow, that is interesting. So anyways, that's what goes on you. Well, I know that arms and core, if you're rowing well, your core should be driving a bunch, but I think a lot of people don't drive power with their hinge.

7:52Brian McKenzie: Dude, I'm just all hinge, baby. It was natural. I'm glad to hear that. That makes you happy? No, it made me feel terrible about myself. Well, you can fix your core, but it's better to have a weak muscle than terrible form. I feel like my form is naturally good. I feel like I pick up on those things quite well. But anyways, that's a tangent. Point being is I'm ramping back into training. I don't have anything immediate. And I want to explain my thought process of like how, how to come back into training, uh, knowing, you know, like I'll race here in a few months probably, but the mistake most people make, and I I'm guessing you'll agree with this is the expectation that you can just jump right into previous volume, like week one and just set sail, hit the volume of your quality sessions, go right back to the lengthy long runs, go right back to big quality sessions.

8:37And I'm going to say like nine out of 10 times, that's a recipe for like something to pop up almost immediately in your first week or two. And suddenly you're sidelined after a week off and it's perplexing. Would you agree? Yeah, I would agree.

8:49Brian McKenzie: And I would say that it's not an issue right up until it is. If you're fit, you've been training for a while, you can just keep jumping right back in. You're just fatigued for a week and then you're fine right up until the time it gets you. Correct. And then you're like, why does my knee hurt so bad? My T-band is so bad, I can't use it anymore. And so what I'm getting at is also you have this like glorious window of time, even though I only took eight days off and I had a pretty low volume week prior, but like your body's going to respond to anything. Your body will respond just as well to eight by 400 as it will to 16 by 400 right now.

9:24You don't need to just go back in and kill yourself with these monster sessions because you're going to respond no matter what you do. So save it and allow yourself some time to work into it. And so I have a six week ramp up planned where like, I may only run 30, 35 miles my first week and then 35 to 38 the second week. And I did eight by three minutes today, which is for me, not a huge session by comparison. So in two weeks, I'll do 10 by three minutes. And two weeks after that, I'll do 12 by three minutes. And on the off weeks, I'm going to come up with some threshold based session. You know, I did 24 minutes of work today.

9:59A lot of my sessions, I go up to 40 minutes of work. And so just a very purposeful build. I did a six mile recovery run yesterday. Guess what? Next week, Monday will be a seven mile. The next week it'll be an eight mile because I'm going to respond to anything and fitness is going to come back. So don't rush the process, especially if you're jumping from a good platform, the risk isn't worth it. And so my thought process is just slight dial turn on both the volume of quality and the overall volume and take advantage of this time when you're going to respond to less stimulus, because I know in two months I'm going to be trapped with these big workouts and then I need to keep doing big workouts.

10:34And so save your shot to shoot. I know I'm in a privileged position saying that, but I think it's important for people to hear like, I'm going to get more fit off of eight by three minutes because I'm coming off of nothing. My heart rate data would tell you that it was punchy when it wasn't, shouldn't have been. So that's how I'm approaching the return. I think a lot of people miss that a little. They jump in a little too quick and then play the overused song and dance. And so I'm trying to avoid that.

10:59Brian McKenzie: I love it. I think sometimes people forget, myself included, that when you're fit, just because you have fitness money to spend doesn't mean that you must spend it. I have fitness. I could go out and do this workout. Yeah, but you could get away with this workout. And when you're returning back, get away with it and then save the money. And if you still have it next week and you still want to spend it, you always would rather have it in your pocket than regretful, like, well, I'm in debt. I couldn't agree more. And I did a 12 or 10 by three minute session at like 515 average or 512 average or something pace a month or two ago.

11:40And I chose to run 525s today and did four less reps. And I could have reached, I could have chased it. And I chose also in that, like also the amount of effort being put forth. I know that I was 10 to 15 seconds slower per rep on this session as well. And so there's also that way to look at it. Like I could do this if I treated this session as a race, but I am going to give myself something to look forward to and work towards. Um, I think that's also another component. So I backed off a pace deviation as well.

12:10Brian McKenzie: I like it. Why something you go ahead. Well, no, something you said years ago and I brought it up. I don't know how many times Bracken is like, like, like, like use like the least amount you can get away with in order, like your race prep or recovery or your training, like do as little as possible while still moving the needle. And I think that's actually very profound because once you start doing more and more, you, the only answer is more and more and it becomes unsustainable. And so I think like less is more very often, whether it's with your pacing for a session or effort level or with your volume.

12:47that stuck with me. It's like a very profound thing. I think it's very true across many running domains.

12:52Brian McKenzie: Yeah, and it's maybe not true during peaking or during overreaching stage or whatever. But from a sustainability standpoint, from long-term development, save some wins. You used it in the context where it was like, well, if your pre-race routine is I have to eat these exact things and I have to take an ice bath every night and I have to see my PT and get a massage three days out, I have to do red light therapy and I have to stretch 12 hours a day to have the perfect race, you're like, all that becomes exhausting. Why don't you just eat food, go to sleep, train, and then show up at your race, and you'll probably be just as well off.

13:27Brian McKenzie: So anyways, tangent. Well, I did a similar thing with a workout this morning, in fact, Kirk. I've been embracing joy, I'm going to call it, in training. I'm trying to do two things with my workouts. I'm trying to do the things that I know have worked with me in the past and are safe and do the things I like doing. And I really like trail running. But long runs are a trigger point for my body, and they're a little bit at odds with trying to prep for a high rocks. And how long of long run are you talking about just for context? Let's just say 90 minutes plus. Yeah, that's what my line is too. That's all I was doing.

14:08Brian McKenzie: I'll get my trail work in during my long runs. Yep. But I needed that for happiness. but it wasn't useful and it was a big risk for me in this fragile life I live now. So I've gone back to something I used to do a lot in training, which was follow up my quality session with a medium run. The following day or the same day? The following day. Can you give an exact example of the quality and the medium? What I used to do, let's say Colorado, I would finish up a quality session. Let's say I did 10 by 1 ,000 and then went to the incline in the afternoon and tempoed that. So a double, call it a double threshold day.

14:54Brian McKenzie: I didn't call it that at the time, but call it that. Next day, I'd go run 75 to 90 minutes, easy to moderate on the trails. Mostly easy. It would just turn into a moderate effort just to run easy by the end because I was fatigued. And then I'd take my pure recovery day the next day. I do two 35-minute recovery sessions. And I really liked that trail running on fatigued legs, not trying to get heart rate response, but just spending well over an hour on the trail after a workout. So I'm doing that now, but I can't do well over an hour. So what I've been doing is do a quality session, and then the next day go out and run about an hour on the trails.

15:37Brian McKenzie: That's not a recovery session for me right now. An hour on the trails is not recovery. But if I run it easy-ish, there's no risk to it. And then the third day, I make sure, all right, recover from everything and set myself up for the next little micro cycle. So then I still get my trail happiness, and I get it more frequently, but I'm not running long runs. No long runs at all in your program? I haven't since starting this, but I will. I have a little groin thing, a little groin thing going on, Kirk. You got a groin thing groin? Yeah, I can't decide if it's a very high interior strain or a hernia.

16:17Brian McKenzie: I don't know which one it is. But while I'm figuring it out, I'm not going past like 75 minutes because as I fatigue, that's when things really bark at me. How many do you think a high rocks athlete needs to go for their long run if they're fully healthy? Exceed race duration. That's it. I agree. I was just going to say 90 minutes. Yeah, 75 to 90 for everyone should be fine. I think you get away with 60 to 75, but I like to have a little excess. You plan on racing for over an hour, which most mortals do. My caveat to that would be I don't think you ever have to run for longer than 45 to 60 minutes if you didn't want to, but you would need to have workouts that are 70 plus minutes long.

17:02Brian McKenzie: Alyssa's coach had that line that he kept saying, like, this is an interval contest. This is an interval race. And that's true. So yeah, you don't have to do a 90 minute long run, but you need 90 minute efforts for sure. Yes. Okay, good. We're on the same page. Nitpicking there. But anyway, so, but in line with trying to stay healthy, balancing out, okay, I like doing this, but to stay healthy, I'm kind of nerfing my quality sessions a little bit. So I'm in the same boat that you're in kind of where like, could I do 30 to 40 minutes of quality threshold? Yeah, but should I right now? Probably not.

17:36Brian McKenzie: So I did the opposite thing with the same intent, which is I did 40 minutes of work. I did four by 10 minutes, but one rep was aerobic threshold. The next one was lactate threshold back and forth. So I did two by 10 flat sweet spot running, two by 10 at 15 % at threshold. So the faster work was uphill so it was safer. And the flatter work was slower and in the gray zone so that it was safer. The infamous Bracken three zone method. Zone two, zone three. Zone two, zone three. You got a message or two on our IG page I have to share with you that people approved. They approved. Okay. I think so. I mean, simple's better.

18:14I mean, you see these seven zone models, nine zone models I've seen extrapolated out. I'm like, what do I even do with them?

18:20Brian McKenzie: All right. So I do want to say that it's really nice you sitting here because the whole time I was staring at myself recording that episode talking, I'm like, man, I want Kirk to talk about this now. I want to go back and forth with Kirk about this. I want to, you round me out so nice and it sucks just looking in the mirror talking. So really nice to have you back. Wow. Thank you. It feels good to be back. Do we want to talk anything more about that or do we want to get into your idea for the day? No, good. Just there are workouts you don't have to crush and you can either lower the total duration or you can fill the duration and lower some of the intensity.

18:55Yeah. Like it's okay to - I love feeling good. Yeah. It's okay to run like you did on every other 10 minute rep. Like you ran 20 seconds per mile slower than you could have.

19:05Brian McKenzie: Yeah. And you know, you could have went faster and some would call it sandbagging, but some would call it staying available. And it's kind of what the sport is about. Working sub sub maximally often is really the recipe. Isn't it? Is it not? Yeah. Yeah. And I did the threshold, the true threshold ones where I was sitting right, right at or one beat below my threshold. I did those as second and fourth reps. So I was working my hardest when I was tired. and it felt like a good hard effort. But that was the uphill ones. And the in-betweens, the ones where I'd take more damage was easier. And anyway, you've got to feel good and in theory not risk anything.

19:42Brian McKenzie: I assume you're taking two minutes on those? One minute after the sweet spots, two minutes after the threshold. Oh, nice. Okay. Jigging the system. Yep. Okay. Part of it, I was also crunched for time before school, so I couldn't take two to three between each one. What a luxury that would be. Yeah. Uh-huh. All right. I like your idea for the day. So why don't you introduce it? It's entertaining. Well, I had an episode all prepared for a special guest co-host who shall not be named, but schedules didn't align. I was Rich Ryan. We'll call it. He's your go-to. He's your go-to. He is. He's my, he's my, not Kirk 2.0 because that sounds like an upgrade, but he's my, my Timu Kirk.

20:22That's that. Now that's actually insulting to him. That's very insulting. He doesn't listen to us.

20:27Brian McKenzie: He's very, very gleeful to proclaim that he never listens to other podcasts. So fantastic. No, he's like you in that we share very similar theories and thoughts about training, but we often execute it differently. So I like having him on and he's good banter. So there's this thread on Let's Run. It's amazing that you still go peruse Let's Run. You spend your time. I haven't been on Let's Run since college. I spend my time. I spend some time. I check in. Same, same. Okay. Anyway. Here's how it works. How often do you go on letsrun.com? Minimum four times a week. And you just look if any threads catch your eye?

21:09Brian McKenzie: If there's anything worth reading through. And do you chime in? Never. And you're probably one of the most qualified to. Oh, well, that. I mean, compared to the trolls on there, that's what I'm saying. Yeah. No, I don't. and I don't even have urge to. Early on, I had urges to, and I'm glad I didn't because now I have no desire to. But anyway, I just scroll through the forum and see, is there anything here that would be good learning or entertaining read? And if not, then 20 seconds later, I'm on my way. But I found one that I thought, okay, this is worth scrolling through. So the thread was, what is the running hill you will die on even if there's no proof of it being true?

21:48Brian McKenzie: And so it's like the classic, I believe this and I don't care if science backs me up. Love it. So I perused and I pulled out what I thought were the gems, either funny, outrageous, or thought provoking. And I was going to go through it and I was going to give Rich all the ones that pertain to his world or that would be funnier and just keep it lighthearted, but a bit of chat. But now that we have all these here, we can, this will be several. I mean, I have lots of bullet points. There are a shocking amount of things I wanted to respond to. So we have several episodes worth of ammo here. So the plan here is you're going to read somebody's statement on the hill they're going to die on, and we're just going to simply react to it.

22:33Brian McKenzie: Yep. Okay. And some of them I agree with, and others are, I could not disagree more. And then some are just interesting. Good questions. Okay. So are these all of them or did you pick your favorites? I just picked the ones that I was interested in responding to. Okay. Well, you showed me, Bracken showed me his computer screen before we started recording and that baby is full of text. So you have a lot. I would guess I have 30 to 40. Okay. All right. I'm going to start with a low hanging fruit here, Kirk. Uh-huh. I've always felt that there was no training for a marathon better than simply running a marathon.

23:08Brian McKenzie: Maybe you can't hit 100 % of your theoretical max time if you tried another one a month or two later, but a few minutes of time you may give up could be swallowed up by weather, injury, or number of other factors. It's too hard to get it right one time. So the more trips to the starting line, the better chance of producing a perfect race instead of leaving it in training. Also hard to get experience running a marathon if you only do it once or twice a year. Six months apart and everything's riding on that one day. So the best possible way to get better at marathoning and just run a bunch of marathons.

23:40I'm actually on the fence how I want to respond to this one, which might be surprising. Yeah. You have a strong opinion, I can see. No, I just find this humorous

23:48Brian McKenzie: because this is like the perfect example of, I believe this to be true and you can't really disprove this. I like it in one hand because you have to feel the back third of a marathon to know what's coming and work through it and also to understand how you need to manage effort early. On the other hand, I don't know what other training this gentleman is talking about in the mix or lady. So it's perplexing if it's like, hey, every six weeks, my long run is going to be a marathon. And then I'm going to have some down weeks. I don't know. Is there additional context there? Nope, none. The pressure, the pros nail it by running marathons twice a year.

24:29Maybe you'll see somebody do it three times a year. But what do the pros also do, Bracken? they might run a 30 mile long run in training and go beyond the marathon distance i've seen up to 32 mile long run from some of the pros so they are running a marathon in between their marathon races it's at what effort and so i think for some people this might not be the worst approach i don't think for everybody it would be a great the best approach but i think for some

24:52Brian McKenzie: it might work for a period of time who it's best for people who are not racing it who just want to do better at marathons. 100%. Yep. I still don't recommend it, but it wouldn't be the worst option to just do some generalized training and run a marathon every six weeks. Six weeks is pretty tight. At like a comfortably hard effort. Eight weeks, 10 weeks, whatever you want. Run six a year. Six a year. Let it come to you every time. Start as if it's a traditional long run. If it's your day press and if it's not and and you'll you'll probably get one right pr six times and nail one i also think i think it's also i also think it's better for the um i don't i'm just gonna say the the slower athlete yeah one who's out there for longer um i also think that that would be i would lean more towards those folks than the ones who are trying to run 230 or under or three hours or under, I think that almost would go against traditional logic because then the person would be out there longer, which would seem more detrimental.

25:58But there's much more margins of error there because you're working with more time. And so, I don't know. I would take that approach. Yeah. I would not take that approach, I said. No.

26:12Brian McKenzie: Oh, no. Me either. So, I would say it's not useful to people who know their pace. And I think that if you train enough, you have a pretty small window of pace you believe you can keep, but that will be on the edge. And then once you've felt it once, that's enough. One marathon is enough to figure out the consequences. And if you run big volume, your debut can be good. If you run big volume of quality sessions, your debut can be pretty darn good. Yeah, those big volume quality sessions get you pretty dialed in a pace range within, I mean, honestly, five to 10 seconds a mile if you're doing big volume quality.

26:51What do you think? If you're going to have fun with this one, let's say you're a new to marathon runner. You've been running, but you're finally dipping your toes in the water and you're going to run your first. And this is a middle of the packer that really has no idea what's going to happen after mile 18. They just don't know. Do you think it could be something like, yeah, go run four marathons your first year. Great. Maybe run three your second year. Great. And then maybe get down to two your third year and keep it there.

27:15Brian McKenzie: You could. I still wouldn't recommend it. I still don't agree with this, but it'd be more appropriate for that person than anyone else. I'll tell you what. I ran 250Ks seven weeks apart. And I know that once I had to push the button, the button wasn't there in the second one. I was trying to thread the needle. You emptied it in the first one too. Correct. And honestly did empty it in the second one as well. but seven weeks apart, six weeks of lead in, my button wasn't fully ready to be pushed again. Yeah. So I can speak to that personally. It's a 50K on terrain, but it's same, same map. So I'm going to follow this up with the next one, which is the perfect companion piece and just shows how confusing running is to people.

27:57Brian McKenzie: Marathons are extreme events. They are not normal races. They should be done once in a while, not regularly. And I agree with this way more than I agree with the other one. They are extreme events. They are not normal. It is too long to try to run hard for and do it regularly. I agree fully with this. What amount of people do you think, let's call it humans, actually express even close to their potential in the marathon? Close to their potential. I'm going to say single digit percentages of people. and is probably less than five. That's what my gut tells me. Maybe two? Because she's a fickle, fickle, fickle thing.

28:41Brian McKenzie: I've said this before. We're finally getting elites fast enough that we're starting to see them able to race a lot of it. But it's too long of an event to thread the needle the whole time you have to hold back. But it's too fast to feel really good for very long if you are near your capacity. It's a weird distance, but I think it's just too long to expect the average person to be able to erase it. Yep. Yep. Uh, I agree with that. I think you, you put your eggs, I think the best way to run a good marathon is to have a good build, put your eggs in one basket, do it right and show up and hope you're right.

29:20Hope the, the, the weather gods and the wind gods and the tummy gods are on your side that day and give it a real honest crack. I think anything worth doing is worth doing right. And I think the right way to do it is true builds. And the thing is, is two marathons a year, you're also not taking into consideration. Like I'm only racing two times a year. No, please go hit a half five weeks out and get dialed. Maybe you hit a five or 10 K in the build as like a punchy sort of like move the needle session. Like it doesn't mean you only race twice per year. It means you only marathon twice per year.

29:55And there could be a half or two in those builds as a six week out barometer check. and there could be, like I said, a sharpening 5K four weeks out if you so chose. But it just doesn't mean exclusively racing twice a year either. I think that people lump those together. Like I'm a marathoner, I'm going to race twice a year. That doesn't have to be the case. Would you agree with that? 100 % I agree. Correct. So there's racing to be had while still doing this right.

30:19Brian McKenzie: But I also believe that the marathon robs you of other races. I think it's too detrimental to your overall health and sharpness as a runner. to be able to serve both masters. And we're seeing it with pros. There have been a bunch of really good pros who've tried to do both, run the 10K and run the marathon, and they're not at their best for one of them, sometimes not both. We've only seen a few runners, and it's been recent, who have managed to do both. And I think it's no coincidence that it's happened as fueling and shoes have reached another level. but really I can only think of three, maybe four marathoner and track runners who can serve both.

31:05I'm trying to think who's jumped up to the marathon from the track, but then gone back to the track and still ran well.

31:13Brian McKenzie: Safan Hassan, but she was not the same. That's what I was just going to say. She was not quite the same. Yeah. You're right. Safan Hassan, any men? Backwards compatibility. I can't think of. There have been men who have recently gone up from 10K to half to full in the same calendar year and crushed all of them. But going back down. We haven't seen him come back down well yet. That's what I haven't called one. Didn't go well. He was running marathon pace in his 10K on the track when he came back. Like literally. That's not hyperbole. He ran within five seconds a mile in the 10K on the track because he was racing the marathon.

31:49Or the half at least. What about Centro? Are you rooting for Centro to really get that marathon down?

31:55Brian McKenzie: uh i would root for any runner outside of a few i just don't buy it as like a full-on serious pursuit because he's running like 225 or something right yeah i think he could have done that in training at his peak yeah like semi comfortably yeah but it goes to prove though like what it really takes like the committed focus like a olympic champion 1500 meter runner has now run like two or three marathons and have has got beaten by the elite women but notably and but he was he was not a high mileage athlete either i don't believe but nonetheless i thought he ran decent miles but he's 13 minutes off being like a world champion woman yeah it's incredible 30 seconds per mile that's a different stratosphere so i'm gonna i'm gonna make a bold claim a hill i'll die on kirk i don't know if i want to die on this hill but i'm gonna make a maybe a hot take based off these last two questions talking about could you race five or six marathons a year.

32:52Brian McKenzie: I can't think of a single distance race. And I'm going to include all the way down to the 800 meters in this that I would want to have to race six times a year. I can't think of a single race, 800 meters and above that once I get past four, maybe five attempts, I feel confident that I'm going to get better on the sixth. I don't want to do it for 10K. I don't want to do it for 5k unless I did three in the spring, three in the fall kind of thing. We've run college track. I've run six miles in 1500s or six 800s in a year plenty of times. It's hard to get better after the first three. Four? Three?

33:33If you come in and do a rust buster, then you can count four maybe.

33:38Brian McKenzie: Sometimes at the end of the year you pop something, but you're not always confident by that point. And if you look at the pros, even the 1500 guys, like who's winning the world championships? It's their third race of the year. Third race of the year. So they've run some 5Ks and some 800s and then they go get dialed in the 15 and they end up putting it together at the perfect time. It happens every year. Doesn't mean you can't go run 10 5Ks a year and have a blast. Sure. But if I'm trying to run my best, I can't think of a single distance. I'd want to have to commit to six times in a calendar year.

34:07What if we back down just one deviation, half marathon?

34:10Brian McKenzie: Three. It's not much different than a marathon for me, honestly. I don't want to run more than three half marathons, sell my soul in the race more than like three times a year. I'm trying to, I think you'd get away with four and do it well. Yeah, you could, but like I would lose the mental excitement to do the fourth. Yeah, true. True. I just, it depends how quick you are again, though it really does. If you're a 70 minute half marathoner versus a two hour half marathoner, they become different recovery processes sometimes. If both are threading the needle and working at their capacity. Yeah, I would agree.

34:39Brian McKenzie: the trails would change that i could do more on the trails hard because of the novelty novelty and just the demand on your body's i mean we ran ocr for example i'd go to the well 10 times a year yep yep but you wouldn't nail it you know you wouldn't nail it 10 times a year not quite no yeah anyway six is a lot six is a lot of of races to like get right yeah but i think that's that person's argument though too, right? Is it might take that many to get it right. So yeah. So give yourself a lot of chances. Yeah. Like if you were new to the mile, you should probably race six miles that first year.

35:17But after that, you don't need that anymore. And you know what though, that's interesting is I almost look at this completely upside down. And the fact that like, I feel like for the most part, especially in the half, but the full applies, like whether you nail it the first half or not, like your fitness will have a chance to show itself by the end. whereas like a 5k i'm like no like if you really want to chase your best time like we need to take like three cracks at this thing in like eight weeks and give yourself some opportunities to learn the approach whereas in like the half and further i'm like i'm not too worried about what you run your first three miles at because like you're going to end up in a similar place by the end yeah so you can race one after not racing one for six months or a year and still get it fairly right whereas i really think the shorter distances take a little bit more needle threading and they need more exposure for that.

36:05Yeah. Okay.

36:08Brian McKenzie: All right. I'm going to mark that one off. I'm marking these Kirk. So many on here. Um, here's one peaking isn't real. Do they elaborate? No peaking isn't real. Well, I can tell you firsthand. Yes, it is. And you often don't even realize when you are sometimes until you're past it. Peaking is real. You go real. I mean, peaking, if you want to boil it down at its simplest. It's getting two different lines on the graph to be at their best sustainable points. One of them is fitness and the other is fatigue. You want your fitness to be at its highest point while your fatigue is at its lowest sustainable point.

36:47Brian McKenzie: And where that intersection is, that is your peak. It looks like a mountain, right? That point where fatigue is dropping and fitness is rising. And at some point, if fatigue and damage drop low enough, your fitness is dropping too because you're not working hard enough to stimulate improvements. So there's this junction of lines where fatigue and fitness intersect and that is your literal peak. This is the fittest you can be without being overly fatigued or beat up. Or this is the best you can feel without having lost fitness. That's your peak. That's a real thing. Now how people go about doing it can be sham or snake oil or just wrong or ineffective, but it's no myth.

37:31Brian McKenzie: It is a physiological point. You can find it in biomarkers. Yeah. I typically find with a peak, like it, you'll know whether you're trying to do it on purpose or not, even sometimes, I mean, let's be honest with the majority of the listening audience, you hit a couple punchier sessions after some good weeks and months of training and you decide to really reach on your mile repeats once. And then you go and you really reach on this traditional ladder you made for yourself. And then you hit a session. You're like, God, it is there today. And you just run through walls and your pace is faster and you crave it.

38:04You're working hard and you're like, I want to lean into this punch even harder. Like hit me again. I'm here for it today. And you're like, I had a good session there. And you extend yourself a little bit. You just peaked. you're part of your peaking and I can only sit there for like three weeks maybe where then I go to hit something and I want to reach for something again and I'm snubbed with fatigue now it's not I've lost fitness it's like I'm a little dull today just a little and then I'm a little dull again the next week and you either have to do one or two things you have to back off for a little bit and recharge and try to regain that or something like that but what I find is if I start playing with workouts which I like to do like I'm going to go in this six-week build of these three minute sessions, uh, three minute intervals, yada, yada.

38:48And then I'm going to give myself three weeks of fun in quotes. And I know exactly what's going to happen. I'm gonna start feeling myself pretty good. I'm gonna start hitting something. I could probably race already then. Um, but that's how I experience it. Something like that. How do you experience it or have you experienced it recently? Uh, I peaked in college my final year. Yeah. Cause you finished strong. You PR PR PR to finish. Yeah.

39:10Brian McKenzie: Every race until I was done, I PR'd. I went on a PR streak. And it happened for two reasons. One, I was student teaching during the day and running my workouts alone at night. And so there was no one around to push me into paces or to bait me into paces I shouldn't be running. Because I wasn't the best runner on the team. So I shouldn't be running with the best runners on all my sessions. And so I ran everything by feel and by stopwatch. And because I did all my own easy running and recovery running, or I ran with Lisa, she was the only training partner I had like 90 % of my final year of college.

39:52Brian McKenzie: I was not tempted to overwork on the easy day with the boys. And so for the first time in my entire life, I was recovering between sessions. And so it extended my season out. And then when I went to peak, there was something to unearth. I still had more fitness I could gain, but I wasn't overcooked. And so I had this extended, like you described, a three-week period where I just PR'd every race for three weeks. And I was feeling bouncy in training. I'd warm up for my session and be like, oh, this is going to go well. You generally don't always think that as a track athlete. You're warming up like, man, I hope my legs come back.

40:33Brian McKenzie: out in time for this, but I was warming up like, I'm going to rip today. And because I was solo, I didn't take myself to the well. So that was one. And twice, two or three times during OCR season, I'd prep for the Spartan Race World Championship and this big overextended build to a three to four hour mountain race. And afterwards I'd have to recover, but there'd always be more races to run. There were some cash races. The Illinois Midwest race was always in the couple of weeks after. There were some SoCal races. They had prize money. And so I would do this thing where I wasn't running every day, but I'd still hit my quality sessions, but I'd run like B plus sessions.

41:16Brian McKenzie: And I'd end up just for like two or three weeks, four weeks feeling awesome. And I'm gliding on the trails and it was like unintentional peaking. I removed this huge fatigue while I was recovering from the races and I was doing some sharp stuff and some faster stuff because I couldn't do big volumes. I was adding back in fart licks and some trail intervals. And suddenly I would just feel like I was floating for a while and I'd rip these Spartan supers and sprints and then this year would be done and I'd go into off season. But that was always my most fun time of racing was that fall afterwards if I survived championships without getting too beat up.

41:53Yeah. You did the training you had to do pre-world champs, and then you got to do some training you wanted to do after those champs. And the key is I didn't peak for worlds. I didn't know how to peak for a long event. I found that I raced. What's that? It's difficult.

42:09Brian McKenzie: Yeah. And I found that because endurance and stamina were my big issues, I couldn't back off volume confidently before these events. So I said several times, I raced best in the third stage of training, not the fourth stage, which for me in a marathon distance or duration race was true. When I was hitting my long runs and I was doing my threshold work and my downhill work, I raced really well off that long. And then after that, I unintentionally entered fourth stage of training, which is reduce load and sharpen. And so I'd get this accidental peak and fall and it was beautiful. But the people who peaked for championship, like Killian would peak for it.

42:45Brian McKenzie: He'd be a rock star. Cody would peak for it. Remember twice in Texas, the team race after Worlds? I'm sitting there at the front of the race waiting for my teammates like, this is my day. I could maybe run with Cody and Killian today on this beast. What's going on? It's because they were cooked and holding on. And they just won Worlds. I had just fallen off the back in Worlds, but now I'm sharp and feeling great. I sort of had an opposite problem in college. I was like my second 1500 of the year, and I'm you know three weeks of track workouts back with the team post winter break and i'm i'm as i pop and then i never feel that good again the rest of the season i can maybe circle the same waters uh back half of the season with like stickier efforts um but i never nailed it i don't think towards the end of the season that was that was my first few years yeah i'd get to the end of indoor and start to get like this depressing feeling like there's nowhere to go from here best I can do is just like try to hold on that's a depressing feeling with fitness that happened at the end of cross country a lot for me too because I was kind of hanging on to the guys that were a little bit better than me for a bit good bit of the season cross country got me that way the most so to wrap up uh peaking is real you you may not believe in it but it believes in you even if you're not expecting it sometimes I mean I've accidentally peaked for sure.

44:10I've let myself have too much fun with workouts or allowed myself to chase some things while also maybe doing a good job of doing recovery in between, like you mentioned, just like, you know what? I'm slogging. I don't care. And then suddenly I'm like, I nailed that workout. I know that workout again. My goodness. If I had to race that day, I think I would have had a great one. Um, I tend to do that. So I got to figure that out in the future, but are you getting glitchy for me? Audio or video? No, you're good. Oh. Yeah, you're a little blurry, but audio is beautiful. Okay, you sound like you're talking through a fan.

44:40Brian McKenzie: Oh, that's not fun for you. Yeah, okay. As long as we're recording cleanly, we're good. We're good. All right, here's a good one. And you've run in these, as have I. And we ran in the old school. It'll make sense when I read it. So I feel we are qualified to talk on this. Super spikes, not super shoes, super spikes, don't help remotely as close to what the dinosaurs of track and field think. they are not solely responsible for world records a super spike for everyone who is not familiar with track and field is literally all the best parts of a super shoe injected into a traditional track spike you get a couple extra millimeters of super foam and that's it the spikes already had plates they already had plastic plates or carbon fiber plates back when we were in college We had spikes with carbon fiber bottoms to them.

45:35Brian McKenzie: There's just nothing else. They're very harsh to run in. Now they have a couple millimeters of foam up to the, I think it's 20 millimeters is the stack height rule for world athletics. You get up to 20 millimeters of foam. I think that's what it is. I said it's 18 or something, but I'll double check that while you're talking. But it's just a traditional spike with maybe a lighter, better upper, but they were already really good. but you just added a bit of super foam to the mix. That's what a super spike is. Yeah. Well, somebody who seems to respond well to super anything, I do own two pairs of super spikes, the Nike dragonflies and the Hoka, whatever it is, fly X.

46:17I think it is. I forget what it is. Track spike. Uh, and there is something there that is. Dragonfly. Did you have the dragonfly? Yeah.

46:26Brian McKenzie: Yeah. And the Hoka, is it the fly X? I forget what this shallow X. or whatever. The Cello Fly X or Cello. Something like that. Whatever. Anyways, they give back more than my Gessaris did back in the day. My Gessaris was, I think, plastic. And there was like no curve to fit like a sock, really, as much as anything. And I don't know how much of a difference it can make in a shorter event. Maybe it makes plenty of difference. I'm not sure. But that shoe feels different on my foot. And I think in an event, especially the 5K and on, I think the 10K oh my goodness, is there something to gain from a shoe like that?

47:03I think it becomes less with the shorter events. But I had like a 15-year gap wearing spikes between college and when I put them on in adult life and they have changed and they feel notably better, punchier, poppier on my feet. I think something like the old Nike Kennedy rolled well. There was some shoes that really put you on your forefoot, which was helpful. But now they do that as well as give you a little bit of boing. So I think they do make a difference. How about you? 1 ,000 % they do. And then I don't even know how much in the weeds you want to get in track surfaces, but there's some technology there as well, which could play in slightly.

47:46I mean, you've run on a dead track versus a lively track. You know what I mean? But there's probably something there as well.

47:53Brian McKenzie: So there's two aspects to the super spikes that matter. The first is energy return. And the second is impact deadening. Yep. Correct. And the energy return is actually probably a little less than a traditional track spike. In fact, you see it with sprinters. Sprinters abandoned the super spikes pretty early on. It's not beneficial. It slows your reaction time when the foam has to compress as well. The most energy efficient thing is to run barefoot with a plate strapped to your foot that the energy bounces right off the ground, right back in your foot. That is the highest energy return you're probably going to see.

48:37Brian McKenzie: Adding foam to that, it's a barrier. It will deaden some of the energy both ways. And I don't know what the energy return numbers are on standard spikes, but in road shoes, they're starting to get up into the 80 % energy return. Low 70s is good, and it's starting to move up higher with the new technology. I would wager a guess that spikes are infinitely higher than that. So you're going to lose a little bit of energy return and stability with the foam, but not so much that it's going to slow your pace much in 800 meters and above. 400 and below is like that. 400 meters is the tipping point between do you want traditional spikes or super spikes.

49:23Brian McKenzie: But what it does do is it allows you to run perfect form longer into the race with less cost. And that leaves you available to close down a race hard. Part of the dead leg feeling people would get in races, yeah, sure, there's the lactate overload, but there's also just the pounding you're taking is hard on you. And you're removing a lot of that. And we felt that the moment we put on spikes because we're old. But I ran mile races and regular spikes as an adult. And then I also put on a super spike and was like, oh, this supports my stride. I never once ever felt that in a regular spike. I thought, oh, I feel fast in this.

50:00Brian McKenzie: but I never once felt supported by a spike and now you do. And that, so like you said, 5k, 10k, the longer it goes, the more beneficial the spike is because it allows you to run this prancy, bouncy stride with less damage. Well, and just to add to that, I still firmly believe like in a 5k, it's still like 98 % lactate overload that is causing your legs to go to absolute crap. But if 2 % is structural and it keeps your stride available to stay open and it alleviates just a little bit of hammy engagement or whatever you want to call it. And 2 % extrapolated over three miles ends up being 15 seconds.

50:39That math probably isn't mathing, but that matters a lot. It's primarily lactate overload. It's not structural damage in a 5K or 10K, but it's partially. And what happens when lactate overload happens? The form changes, the biomechanics get sloppy and they can save you for a little longer from that running cleanly. And so how do you put numbers on that? I don't know, but it's real for sure.

51:03Brian McKenzie: Well, the margins are so small in track and field, especially at the high end. So even if you're not taking damage enough that it prevents you from running well, the muscle exertion you have to use to absorb the damage and run well gets reduced with more support and cushioning in your shoes. And so, like you said, if you don't have to engage a muscle as a stabilizer, you get to save that for your last 400 or the last 800, whatever it's going to be in the race. And that alone, you can't quantify having fresher legs at the end of a race. That's the difference between kicking for the win and being dropped.

51:44Brian McKenzie: A 1%, 2 % difference is in your legs the last 300 meters, 200 meters. is an eternity in track and field. So I'm going to say this person's absolutely false. They're wrong. Super spikes are every bit as real as peaking is, and it matters every bit as much as peaking does. I very much agree with you. I mean, what's the difference in a 1500 meter between first and 12th in the Diamond League series? Second and a half. They run well, they kick home, and the winner runs 329.5 and 10th place is 331. Now, training's improved, but why do so few people tie up at the end of races now compared to what they used to do part of it carb that's part of it yeah but they're more available at the end of races they're more available and if we want to look to the world record change if the the scientists and the coaches and the athletes can't really agree at which level super spikes don't matter whether it's 400 or 800.

52:45Brian McKenzie: Let's look at world records. Where have they not been set versus where are they falling constantly? Mile and above, constantly falling. 800 hasn't improved with spikes. It really hasn't. Yeah. Because the absolute limit is physiology in the 800. It's not damage. It's not energy return. It's physiology. I am so fascinated to see what Cooper Lukenhaus does, by the way. If there's anybody that has a chance that I can think of. Yeah, you know, I ran a number. I ran three of those Twilight 5000s on the track. And I was in the fastest heat with, you know, the guys who could rip. And there were like 20 to 30 guys in these heats, right?

53:25All seating themselves at 15, 30 and under. And you want to know out of those 30 guys, how many had spikes on and how many, because they had no restraints on what shoes you could wear. So you could wear the vapors, you could wear alphas, you could wear whatever you wanted. Out of the 30 guys on the track running 5Ks, how many do you think had spikes on?

53:45Brian McKenzie: Two? No, some of those. I'm going to say between five and eight. Okay. And everybody else, most of the vapor, honestly, was the shoe that I saw on most people's foot. A few vaporfly rhinoceroses or alpha fly rhinos like me. But most of them were saying, like, yeah, like the energy return is so great on these super shoes that they're even, you know, Even on the track when you're running in circles and making turns and shoes that aren't incredibly stable, by comparison, these fast guys were choosing more stack, more foam, more plate. NCAA did too when it was allowed and then they banned it. Yeah, you'd seen the 10K.

54:21Brian McKenzie: Even some 5K, some Vapors. Yeah. And then you had some Vapors with a spike plate on it. It was Wild West. It was. Didn't Parker Valby have a pair of those? I forget what that was. There was something there, some hybrid. Okay. All right. So I have one for you. I'm here for it. I think this is right up our alley. Hawker's 2021 Olympic performance was by far more impressive than Centro's 2016. And don't even get me started on 2024 Hawker versus Centro 2016. So nitpicking, I don't think they're like 2021. Was that the Olympic year where it was pushed back a year? Still called the 2020 Olympics, right?

55:02Wasn't he fifth or sixth that year?

55:03Brian McKenzie: Anyway, he was sixth. Let me fact check. He was sixth in 331. And in 2024, he was first in 327. But they're comparing it to Matt Centrowitz, who won the real Olympics in 2016 in like, was it 350? 350. And he led every step of the race, I believe. So what this individual, I keep assuming a guy because Let's Run is famous for being basement dweller. The rumor, the stigma is basement dwelling men. Yep. Which probably isn't that. It's all running men, but it's probably mostly men. So I always say he, but assuming this poster is a male. that Hawker running 331 and taking sixth place is more impressive at the Olympics than Matt Centrowitz winning Olympic gold wire to wire in the most tactical race ever, but running 19 seconds slower.

56:04Are you sure he's not talking about Hawker at the Olympic trials that year? Nope. Because at the trials, he put on an impressive performance. Him and Centrowitz kicked home. It was a pretty iconic moment.

56:22Brian McKenzie: That is 100 % objectively false. There's only one measure by which it's better, and that's time. And you don't run the Olympics for time. Tell me, what's the Olympic record in the 1500? Cole Hawker's 327 and change. Did you know that for the record prior to that? Or do you know it because your favorite American runner said it? What was the previous record? To 327. Yeah. Previous Olympic record. 329. 328. You sure? Point is, we love track and we're not totally sure, but we can tell you all the world records. Olympic records don't matter. They're a byproduct. So a gold medal where you beat arguably the deepest 1500 field ever is less impressive than running fast and taking six is what this man says because he cares about time rather than a really, really slow win.

57:16Racing matters. That's what makes the Olympics so glorious. It's some of the few high-level racing without pacers or rabbits. That's to win from the front like that in a kicker's race. I don't know anybody else who's done it unless they've been class of the field by far. And Centro wasn't.

57:31Brian McKenzie: It was a master class in racing. He tightened the screws so perfectly from the front. And what did he do really? What saved him in that race? What really was the key was the fact that he wasn't fluttering around in traffic. He ran his perfect little compact stride. didn't waste a single ounce of energy even though he was leading tugging around in the pack with everybody else it was a perfect energy management who cares what they were other people were doing he nailed it and he made such a beautiful response move with 400 to go where he almost got passed and he burnt part of a match to zoom up and that cemented the fact that he could win the race If he gets swallowed up right there, he probably takes like 12th.

58:19Brian McKenzie: So I want to read off all the people. All right, let's just play a little game. In 12th place there, any idea who 12th place was? In Central's race in 2026? No, but I bet you, what was Central's time? 350 what? He was, oh, I got to actually look up. Actually, I was asking in 2020, but 2016, Olympics, 1500 meters. Centro was 350.00. Okay, and was 12th place under 351? Were they all within a second of each other? I have to pull up full results now. Sorry to make you do that, but I'm just... 12th place. You're not wrong. Charlie Grice from Great Britain, 351.73. Then 351.6, 351.4, 351.3, 51.0, 51.0 50.8 50.5 50.2 50.2 50.1 unbelievable so every single one of these individuals was within three strides of a gold medal yeah he beat mcloofy nick willis suleman uh a geeter uh asbel kiprop ben blankenship ryan gregson uh quemoy he built a stacked He beat a stacked field.

59:44Brian McKenzie: Stacked field. Anyway, then we go and look at the race that they said was better. 12th place was 338. And the winner was what? 328. Was that the Whiteman win? This was Ingebrigtsen. That was Ingebrigtsen. In 2020. So they're saying is this 13th place at 338, which was 12 seconds faster than the win, was a better run. Nope. It's just not happening. What about Centro's win versus Hawker's win? I'm honestly going to say dead even. Both master class races, Hawker got luckier but ran extraordinarily fast. The fastest that's ever been run in the Olympics. He was one move not opening up that he had no say in it.

1:00:36Brian McKenzie: Someone just left the inside open and he got through. He was one move away from missing a medal entirely because of that. So he got luckier, but he also ran the fastest time ever. And it was the craziest close we've ever seen in a race. Whereas Centrowitz did every single thing right and had the fastest last lap we've ever seen in the Olympics. Both were extraordinary. I can't call between the two of them. What about you? I would say as far as excitement goes, Hawker. Like the, just the, the, the peak exhilaration would have been, would have been Hawker for me. In fact, in the 2024 Olympic games, uh, I've watched all of Olympic races from like the nineties on I've watched all current big time, um, diamond league races and, and us champs.

1:01:21And the two best races I've ever watched of all time came from the 2024 Olympics. And there's no question. They're so far ahead for me and it's Hawkers win. And then it's, uh, the men's steeplechase final. why am I forgetting his name off the top of my head don't do this to me who am I thinking of the BYU grad you I can't think of his name either right now oh my god what a disservice he was seated like 10th going into the finals and just made the gutsiest move

1:01:48Brian McKenzie: I've ever seen his low heel kick and I can't oh my gosh with his name Kenneth Rooks Kenneth Rooks that last lap I've watched that race like probably 20 times yeah Anyways. I will say this. Hawkers was more shocking and startling and awesome as it happened. But Centro's built every stride from 400 meter on the tension and the excitement. And so I honestly can't choose between the two of them. Whichever one you choose, you're not wrong. Unless you say that Hawkers' sixth place finish was a better race. I'm going to go watch them this week. Maybe I'll watch them tonight. I got to watch them. They're so good.

1:02:24Brian McKenzie: Anyway. Great conversation starter. Terrible take. Maybe the worst track and field take I've seen. I agree. And in that race, Hawker kind of hung on and kicked for those last couple positions, if I'm not mistaken, too. So classic. All right. Should we do one more? We shall. Oh, yeah. We got three minutes at most. So we'll have to make it quick. Can you keep it? I'm going to do a short one then. It is absolutely fine to run on an empty stomach. Even a long run, you won't die. Fact. Performance aside, assuming you're hydrated and well-fueled outside of that, fine by me. Yeah. And I would say the word choice is perfect.

1:03:07Brian McKenzie: It's the highest level of positive you could give that would be it's fine. Fine. And you won't die. Saying absolutely fine implies it's perfect. Like it's absolutely fine. But no, by just the pure words, it is fine to run fasted for everything, including a long run. You won't die. Fact. It's fine. That's it. That's the best thing I can say about that. Agreed. There's better approaches, but it's fine. When I went all in on running to the point where I moved my family 16 hours away to train in the mountains and at altitude and doubled most days of the week and slept in and was the lowest of my converging lines of father and husband so that I could be the highest of athletes.

1:03:57Brian McKenzie: When I went all in and I didn't sacrifice everything, but as much as I was comfortable sacrificing and probably a little too much, I got most things right. When I look back, the things I left on the table, one of them was absolutely how I fueled my medium long and long efforts. I can viscerally remember the empty, destroyed feeling towards the end of these runs and the way I'd feel for a day afterwards because I just didn't fuel. and I think of all the miles it cost me by doing that. 70 miles unfueled would have been worth 85 miles of fuel training. That's a hill I'll die on. I could have been running 80 to 90 and feeling better than I felt running 70 totally.

1:04:42Brian McKenzie: And this was 100 % unfueled. No food prior, no water during unless I was going longer than, or if I was going, I would say three hours plus, I'd practice with a vest. And that was only as I got closer to world championships. So 100 % unfueled, 100 % destroyed after every long run and medium long run. Fueling before and during is honestly just as much about setting yourself up for the later days and runs than it is in the current, right? It's just making sure your stores aren't completely depleted so that you're ahead of the recovery game so that the next session goes well and you're available more so than anything.

1:05:17The current session might go just fine. I rolled out of bed, had a cup of coffee and hit some hard workouts and they've gone well and I felt good. I could have raced that way.

1:05:25Brian McKenzie: I have raced that way. Shorter stuff. But yes, it's a compounding interest thing where eventually you end up a little bit behind. And what do you get out of the investment? I invested a two-hour long run at altitude with hard descents. Did I reap 100 % rewards of that workout or did I not? Probably not. In looking back, I was dumb because one session ever, I said almost 100 % fasted, one session ever. Is that time? Yep. Well, no, that's my subtle wrap it up. Kirk just deadpan looked at me and held up his phone. Anyway, one run ever in my nine day cycle, would I have anything for? And that was in between my intervals before heading to the incline.

1:06:13Brian McKenzie: I would have some Gatorade powder in water mixed up. and sometimes I'd have a smoothie. And it was because I was afraid of altitude. I just did intervals, probably a little too hard, and now I was going to climb a part of Pike's Peak. And I didn't want to really hurt myself or get woozy or whatever. And so I would have that. And I crushed those sessions and they went so well. And I didn't have the wherewithal to be like, we should probably feel like that more. Should have fueled before the first session. So yes, it's fine to do, but you're not helping yourself. You're not doing yourself any favors.

1:06:52All right. Cue the music. Thanks for listening. Till next time.

1:07:02Brian McKenzie: If anything resonated with you on today's episode and you're curious about taking your training to the next level, check out therunningpublic.com, where we have a training plan to fit your needs.

1:07:16Thank you.