1 in 5 of Your Friends Are Narcissists | Dr. Ramani Durvasula

25:33Everything is self-serving. Insecure. Deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well, then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that right but it is actually fascinating to watch that moment if you could put it in slow-mo when the shame gets activated I don't know they don't get the girl or they don't get the guy or they don't get the job and the rage it just it pops out like that oh man is an idiot I feel like um I feel like I'm sorry I'm so uh reactive to this not in a negative way but I feel I'm remembering many things in my life.

26:30In many relationships, I have always wanted to do therapy with people. And in multiple relationships, they were resistant. They never wanted to do it. They said, no, I'll never do therapy. So resistant. Eventually getting into therapy. So it's so funny you're saying this because I feel like, I don't know, I'm just having these flashbacks here. But, uh, and everything you're saying here, it just seems like crazy to me. So I feel like maybe I might've been with some narcissists. Maybe I haven't with, with everyone. Uh, but I'm wondering what attracted me to maybe some people that had this when originally I didn't know they had this.

27:09It didn't seem like they had these things. It seemed like, uh, you know, they were loving and supportive and kind and generous. But the more you say these things, I'm just like, okay, that's interesting. Just noticing. So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations. Charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also... Can you have those things and not be narcissistic? You can. Because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know. So here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. When you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them.

27:52They are the unicorns of the human being. Someone who is confident and caring. When I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, I do. I literally am like, all right, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look goo-goo eyes because I'm thinking. And then, of course, I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm going to find what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. And I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing, the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there's also comfort that they also offer.

28:30It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers. I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous. Up front. You know, it's all a front game, right? Yeah. Cash. So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense and you miss the little things. This is amazing. Yeah. and people and if you either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff or you justify it you justify well yeah you know he's got a big job or she's really stressed or she doesn't mean that or that's just their culture oh my gosh you just said that someone I was with was like well this is my culture no no someone say that all the time this is my culture and I go no and I tell people probably no empathy like it makes no sense to me like I've heard that excuse and I get to say this because I'm from a very different culture.

29:18And I'll say, oh, no, I do not know a culture where meanness is permitted. And to say to that person, if that's your culture, then go with God. Exactly. Because this is a meanness for me. Or squirking at someone and being angry and not regulating your emotions is not a culture. No, that's not a culture. But yet, I'm amazed at how often. I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures. right and they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting and there's interrupting and there's interrupting narcissistic interrupting is not only it's it's contemptuous interrupting what's that mean like dismissive interrupting it's dismissive like um okay all right you know you're talking and then i i not only cut in but it's basically like your point of view doesn't matter or yeah you're you're an idiot this is i know it's really yeah yeah interesting Okay, so you shared some of these signs of malignant narcissism.

30:18No, that's okay. So let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about. Entitled man, yes. Yes. Now the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes. Oh my gosh. Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard nail. Wow, that's crazy. I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big, charming, confident, I'm the one, I'm the best, no insight, very little empathy, kind of, but very like big salesperson-y. That's the grandiose narcissist.

30:59Grandiose. This is someone who says when you meet them on the first day, I love you. Yeah, they're often like, we're going to be together forever. Once in a lifetime love story. This is magical, right? It's that. Oh, man, flashbacks for me. Grandiose. Okay. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff. But they are more menacing. They are more controlling. They're a little bit more scary. They're sadistic. They're paranoid. What if they have both of those things? Usually they can. They can. And that's a horrific combination.

31:41Because then that person's real charming on the front end. And then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary. And when we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissism, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often they're more they're more likely to be aggressive to be violent to be abusive to isolate people from ever being able to get help from being abusive in the workplace we hear these big awful workplace abuse stories a lot especially a lot in the me too era a lot of those folks are malignant narcissists right so how do you and tyler if we have a whiteboard in there can you bring it one way into the sharpie or with a erase dry erase marker because i think we have i think we have a small i think we have a small white board if you find one or see if matt has one um so what happens if you're with a narcissist you you maybe it's been a year you've been dating someone or your your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning but then you're figuring out oh check check check they've got a lot of these things but you know the first six months was seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing but now we're seeing the curtain you know pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in whether it's a working relationship a friendship an intimate relationship we've spotted it yep what i'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist no so trying to change them is not going to happen that's a fool's area so does mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and and rip the band-aid and get out or how does it so it's not that simple yeah right we can't walk away from all relationships people can't just quit their jobs.

33:27Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin and they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off for my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called, Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go.

33:57Like you said, rip off the Band-Aid. So if you're, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you. And there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse. And they found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. Completely blocking. completely done. And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to have no more toxins. If you have a little bit, you're just going to be feeling a little bit of pain consistently.

34:34It's going to be holding onto it. Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're going to have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never going to change. This is who they are. This is who they are. This is it. So, and I, then I tell people I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.

35:09And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, it's like you're in a deposition. Yes? No? Okay. Sounds good. Sure. Now, narcissists don't like that because they love the fight. They're going to keep coming and digging and digging. They're going to bait you. They're going to bait you. And when I tell you when they bait you, they don't play. They go for everything. They go for everything that's going to be good. They make something else. I'm making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it.

35:40Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right? And so then some people take that bait and then the narcissist is like, game on. You know, and they're all... I got you. I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study that came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy. And phenomenal study that came out this year. And over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. There's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight.

36:15They are always a better fight. Oh, my gosh. And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made of steel. Don't defend, don't engage, don't fight. This is crazy. To not get into the fight. Yeah, I want to speak names here, but in a previous relationship, I remember I learned to let go of jealousy in my 20s. When I was in my teens and 20s, I was jealous. And, you know, if my girlfriend or the person I was dating was with other guys, I just didn't know how to handle it. Right. I was, you know, afraid. I was like, oh, what's happening? It was just, like, jealous. then I remember a friend of mine was like you've got to kill the jealousy monster inside of you this is not serving you and your relationships if someone cheats you're going to find out about it and then you move on or whatever but being jealous about something that's not happening is just making you anxious and worried and it's hurting you and it's hurting the relationship so it took me a while but I learned in my 30s and in a specific relationship um was with someone who got a lot of male attention let's say a lot always um and i was never i never was insecure or jealous about it i think i was just so confident i was like you know whatever i mean this person was getting a lot of attention in public and in line or whatever they did and i was just like okay like it never bothered me and i don't know why i think maybe just because i'm older and i have maturity and i was just i feel i felt so confident i was like okay if they want to go with someone else and go be with them if i'm not the right fit for you why would i be jealous and insecure but they it's almost like they always wanted me to react to something yes and i was like yes yes okay if you want to be with them go be with them all right so you know and i never reacted and they are always trying to be like oh this person took my number today and this person i was like yeah okay well what do you want there's a name for that and that thing you're talking about is called triangulation triangulation every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome.

38:10You just don't know it. Because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me. This person DM me or this person's hitting on me. They're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous or their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. So jealousy is normal. We are a, actually, we're a pair-bonded species, we human beings. We pretty much are about, generally, normatively, have sex with one person.

38:56People are like, no, that person cheated on me. I said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous. They weren't banging you. They weren't banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay? But we tend to be pair-bonded. We tend to be monogamous. All right? So jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right, normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person.

39:33if somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring. That's all that Darwinian stuff, movie production. Pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy, though. That starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and negative mood states. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you've still got skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and or worked with individuals and they'll say I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband I kind of feel sad because I'm like yeah this thing this thing's kind of oh gotcha kind of done I feel like yeah I don't feel jealous I feel like I trust the person I'm with it's yeah but that's that's we're talking about pathological jealousy right so I think of my partner ironically on our on my drive here he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were going to see who had hit on him and this dude is so loyal it levels it a whole new level and i remember thinking in the driver i'm like i got that little funny thing in my tummy okay i i don't like huh he doesn't even live in this country and so i'm thinking that's and i was like that's good that's good that i'm still feeling like i still got a dog in the fight but it doesn't mean you're like i but for days letting it stress you out and like only because we're talking about yeah of course yeah and so the paranoia jealousy is some i mean that's a narcissist thing this is Yeah, okay.

40:56So I remember in this specific relationship, it was like, she would make things up. She'd be like, oh, this person is hitting on you. And I was like, no, I don't even know this person is. And then it would just be like, used against. And then it was like, well, I'm not speaking to you for a couple of days because you must be lying to me. You must not be telling me the truth. I'm like, what? It just kept going on and on. So yeah, if you want to use this, if you have any examples. Next time we have, yeah. I think this would be cool to show on YouTube. People will love this. Yeah. Okay, so there's a little bit of jealousy is normal.

41:31It means you care. But the pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy. Yeah. That's a narcissistic thing. That's more paranoid. It's more antagonistic. It's more about, you know, you're doing such accusatory. It's almost delusional. Oh, my gosh. Okay. There's so much that's coming up for me. And what would you say, again, are the main causes? What are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a nurse? Is it all trauma-based?

42:06No, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child. Basically, the child can do no wrong. And they're so wonderful. I mean, it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen, and I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see, because Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world, with every moment being documented and shared. Since they were born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this.

42:42So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data, because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this, so I did not. The only people who saw their pictures were the people who actually put them in an envelope, mailed a picture kind of thing. Came over to the house and looked at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture. So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's special moments?

43:17or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever? It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos, and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much of it said, oh, no, it's so cute. They didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right?

43:47So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool. Yeah, what happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it. Posing and put these clothes on and do this and let's post you. Yeah, in a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona.

44:24You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them? Or for the validation of life. Yeah, exactly. For the validation parents are getting. Yes, exactly. And that's tough because I have friends who never show their kids stuff and then I have friends who do show their kids. and man it's just like yeah how do we how do we navigate that conversation and how do we I think we're building this airplane in the sky oh man and so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other both parents but also I think there's a larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued validated for being the kid who poses in social media, right?

45:15Because what does every child want? They want their parents' love. Love and attention. All they want is their parents' love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interests, what they value may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful and it doesn't all have to be documented that i'm i've been with this psychologist i'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to what let's say there are there are parents that are posting about their kids online you know maybe they have a small following maybe it's to a private group of their friends and family that's a kind of a different game and and and or that's the ones that have a bigger following if they were going to be posting and they have a bigger father I'm going to say, not to their friends and family.

46:13What would be appropriate that you think psychologically in a healthy manner to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know, not mess them up or, you know? Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're gonna take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress, someone has this.

46:50And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finely laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I'm only about this person's finely laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not. It's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, that's not what they want. This is not. This is. We're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the park because they want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like I've been on vacation and I've watched families like practically, I mean, literally screaming, we need this.

47:25We have our class mask card. No way. And I'm like, oh my God. Pay attention. Look here. Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism or the false self. Narcissism is the false self. It's a mask. It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants, how the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies. They're driving the same cars.

48:00they're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask that's a narcissist game that narcissism is the opposite of authenticity it's so interesting because um four years ago i wrote a book called the mask of masculinity which is about staying and i interviewed a lot of psychologists and and um you know experts on uh on these kind of personality traits and these these masks that men wear and i did i wrote about it because i realized i was wearing a mask a couple of different masks for many different years of my life to protect myself to try to fit in to try to be liked and loved by society um one of them being like the the athlete mask it's like i always had to win at all costs i needed to be number one and if i ever lost or got second then no one would ever love me so at all costs i was like training and developing myself to be the best athlete i could be and i was a horrible loser i was a sore loser i couldn't handle it i would get angry i I would be like moody.

48:59I would be like frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better. Until I could make sure that, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong. But it's not the authentic self. Correct. And that, I mean, that's maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self because it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right, the humanistic psychologist and other humanists like Abraham Maslow.

49:38So these were the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization. So if you're to view human growth as a mountain, self-actualization is the summit. It's the top. In my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people and it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger and they were deeply authentic I mean like you you did feel like you were in this in the in the face of greatness with them but some from ordinary like one was a man who was a he was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg and I was like I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now what did that what did that feel like it was like experience absolute serenity um I felt it I felt at one with him at one with the situation I felt more calmed down I felt like I could keep listening to him this was a man with almost no education who again he fixed cars in Johannesburg and actually in a pretty not in the nicest of surroundings and he was joy like he was just human joy and it's not because he was laughing but he was so proud of what and anyone looking at it like there's not a lot happening here but it was this genuine authentic like please come into my Look at my beautiful space.

50:52This is my life. And the other person I met who was same thing, Joy, and that man, the Johannesburg man I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him. We were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer. And it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day. And it was hot and there were flies.

51:25It was uncomfortable. And he was magnificent. And it wasn't just, the mechanic guy wasn't laughing. They're saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right? In service. But he was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more. I want what they have. Someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg, this other man I'm still in touch with.

52:06And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves. What a life. Like, what a gorgeous life. You mentioned the deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get, like, your point across? If you need to get it across, you don't. You don't. You can't. So sometimes I tell people, okay. But life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way. Not with them. So that we should just rip the bandage, you know what I mean?

52:51Not necessarily. We can't, right? So like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying, narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting of a narcissist, we're going to give the other parent full custody. Not happening. State of California, 50-50, all right? Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from this person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50 % of the time. And I don't want them with that influence 50 % of the time. So some people will stay.

53:28My favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till that day. And then at 18, those kids are free agents. So there's no, no one can say you have to be here. You have to stay here. You have to celebrate this holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots. So how do you... You just have to have extreme patience, I feel like. It's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance... This thing sounds exhausting.

53:58...is getting it. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spend time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago. Oh, it's miserable. Are you going to go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt? No, unless you're crazy. Okay. Why? Because in February in Chicago, it's cold. Radical acceptance. Yeah, so you just accept it. Right? If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to an artist. So I tell people, there's another concept I use is something called true north.

54:32Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True north are those things that you're going to fight for because they're so, they're important to your core values. So who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to prejudicial language. True North gets activated and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves and pull out the earrings and then they're in. They're just they'll go at it. It is exhausting. Nothing good happens. Nothing good happens. Right. But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr.

55:06Romani. Yeah. So I could live with myself. Right. To know that I fought for my kids. I stood up for what I want. Yeah. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or why were you late to the party or why were you rude to my sister or whatever. I mean if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, you know what happens though is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like there's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they get really angry and rageful.

55:42So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, uh-huh. That's it. But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time? You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests. Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist? It's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me. It means different things to the people out in the street. so the and that's the the bigger question i often get is can a narcissist love is that possible um it depends on what besides loving themselves what is cold to you right you're in short sleeves i'm in a sweater yeah you know so it's it's it's a subjective word so can a lots of people love narcissists they do they're like i love this person i they represent something to me maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question maybe when we love someone And it's very, it's very, it is very representational.

56:32We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are. But we don't know, maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So, you know, again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, I do, parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents. Like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand them. Sure. But love is much more metaphysical. Yeah, of course. Right? So... What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist? That they love themselves. They don't love themselves? Oh, hell no. It's self-loathing.

57:11This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. They project it onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. Oh my gosh. They're talking about themselves. Oh, my gosh. Sometimes you just want to give them a hug. So narcissists are miserable. They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable. It's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people are like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them. They have to live with it.

57:45The universe wins on that one. Wow. They have to keep being them. Imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this and how come this? and they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them. That's a very difficult way to live. Their nervous system must be always heightened too. Kind of. Kind of, yeah. Different than their psychopathic cousins there, obviously. Who doesn't feel it, yeah. Yeah. But narcissists really, really, it's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like, they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

58:22Mm. And so what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic? I don't think when you let's a child is anyone under 13 I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're in middle school or high school.

58:51Selfishness, inattentive, real inattentiveness. Dismissiveness.

58:57Dismissiveness, devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. that's all narcissistic parent behavior wow rage rage is a big one and i think that's probably the one my clients have brought anger anger but rage like that walking on eggshells if anyone says to me i felt like i was always walking on eggshells around my parent probably dealing with an antagonistic a narcissistic parent yeah i think i was telling you before and i was i felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift um But I've definitely walked in eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way?

59:50Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I hadn't learned to. But you didn't jump into a relationship. I didn't feel that at the beginning. You didn't feel it at the beginning. But it was like six to 12 months later when I was like. Then I justified. Oh, let's just get back to where I was. One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relations is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists. Why is that? And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder.

1:00:25You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever it was you needed to do. It just meant more reps. Yes. There was always a way to make it better. You're going to do the Sunday workout. You're going to go to the gym at 4 in the morning. 5 in the morning. Right? That's what I did. And so the more you had this belief, you got better. And you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just got to talk to them harder. I'm going to be more clear. I'm going to make this work. More loving, more present, more giving. Everything becomes a workout. Oh, my gosh. This is what I did in the last 10 years.

1:00:56In every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it never felt enough. And it was always draining. Correct. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. Yep. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve because I'm an athlete. And I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to.

1:01:25I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them. Not a narcissistic woman. Oh, my gosh. But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away. No, it's more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here. I'll support.

1:01:55I'll do this. And then it just drains your energy. Athletes, entrepreneurs are at risk. anyone who's a doer and it's worked for them they're screwed it wasn't until i really started lifting the veil with my therapist arse about it's like i started to really realize like okay i don't need to keep working working working you talked about this in one of your recent videos like the marriage and relationships should be hard work is kind of the narrative and when i realized like it shouldn't feel like it should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work.

1:02:30Otherwise I'd rather be single if that's the way it is. Exactly. And I think that that, and I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, it's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know that it's hard work because they sat and watched your French film with you. It's just an uncomfortable moment. I'm just going to read my book while you watch your football game. I guess we're good. Yeah, that's fine.

1:02:56I can show up for a few hours. That's not hard work. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect. Every single one. And as long as you got that. Flexibility. Flexibility. No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to make a bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar.

1:03:33Good luck with that. All right. Oh, my gosh. This is just bringing me back to so many realizations. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship if the person is not a narcissist? Like maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was or whatever it is, and you have some PTS from those experiences. And you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Like, is the shoe going to drop? Like when you know the person isn't a narcissist, how long does that take to find out? About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually, there's red flags, right?

1:04:17I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great. That's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're going to make it work. And listen, what's the worst is going to happen? We'll get rebooked. And they're calm. And like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out. To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to.

1:04:49But we're going to be fine. a narcissist when they're running late to the airport oh oh no no no no what so and it just it's just i'm not gonna curse right but it's chaos stress accusations this is your fault entitlement let me speak to the manager get me on that plane get that plane back to the gate like that kind that's the narcissist right whereas with the um with somebody you watch them and that doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport it could be even something like hey i notice you've been working late how about I make some dinner so it's the noticing it's the presence it's the mindfulness it's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed to meet you halfway to to listen to you and more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you so not to be threatened by your own success so if you go up to this person and you're like hey you know what i got this totally cool new opportunity and the healthy person says that is amazing you have worked your whole life i saw this in you what can we do to make this work for you whereas everybody else and not just narcissists but insecure people will say oh i guess that's just going to mean more time away and you're going to be traveling a lot there's going to be a lot of women on the road and you're like oh my gosh they just got the job of their dreams oh my gosh and That's the key.

1:06:12And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in work. I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off topic guy. You can handle it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. And it's a big relationship theory. Is there a graph for this? I was going to say, I want to use the chart. I'll start trying this to Steve Chakot. At some point, I want to use this. So the Michelangelo phenomenon is this idea that the one person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we, like, should we take a second on the house?

1:06:51Should we cut back? You know, should we move closer in? like because i see or or you know what can be simple as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said okay this is the best cake i've ever had have you ever thought of making this into a business or a partner of yours might have said you ask the most amazing questions you need a podcast like it's seeing that something bigger in the person that's a good thing that's that's the michelangelo phenomenon that's everything that's a good thing it's the best thing and very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that person who's saying go be your best you is secure enough to say i'm not going to lose you right like i see all the good in you yeah and that and i want the best for you and i want the best for you and i believe in you and i'm here with you and and that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice things like you know i know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months and i may not see you and that's okay because this is our future together that's the michelangelo phenomena never what's the opposite what's the opposite narcissistic relationship because i um man i think i've i'm just having so many realizations here but i um in in the previous i would say uh 10 years of my relationships i think i was just really good at choosing uh specific people because i was always like i always saw the masterpiece i said i said you're a masterpiece and i can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts but there was like some insecurities with some of them not all of them um and they never were able to see it within themselves they weren't able to see it and then i remember when i would accomplish something big in some of these relationships not all of them it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say oh and then make it about what they're lacking what they don't have and wanting to put their attention back on them i remember i i got an email for a year I was training to become to make the USA national team was a dream of mine to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball it's a big sport in Europe not that big in USA I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team and it was just like a dream for a couple years of a journey this is 10 years ago and I remember I showed my girlfriend at the time ago I just got called up on the national team and i'm like getting kind of emotional just chills now back in that moment and she didn't congratulate me she just kind of went back into god i wish i was doing what i wanted to do and i wish this and i was just like what bingo right there this okay well yeah let me come back and help you i kind of put my attention back on like you know you're gonna get these things going and you know i'm here for you but it's like this diminishing i had this happen at one of my big events one time i host this annual event called the summit of greatness and uh a relationship out of time made it all about them at the event that i wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and i was like this is something i've been working all year to host and then i said you know what let me pause on my event for two hours to give the attention to this person and i and i was always trying to see the masterpiece but it's like i don't know i'm like you're having so many realizations for me right yeah i mean but that's the idea that that ego and it's interesting not everyone who's not capable this sort of michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch they may just have more of the low grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by right so all insecurity doesn't mean narcissism right insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all that is the problem and so it's so unfortunate because it is there then you again it's talking about self-actualization for the individual i think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people, like, they really see, they see the greatness in each other.

1:10:42It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you. What? Because it's just draining. Yeah. If it's just one person, right? It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you. Oh. Yeah. Man, this is crazy. So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and are supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed.

1:11:18I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you. And she's happy for you. She's happy for me. There you go. It has to be a two-way street. She's like, you're crazy. She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful. It is beautiful. I mean, that's the key, though, because that ability to sort of co - like, you know, again, to have that co-located growth, that Michelangelo, if you will. In essence, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day and you're both sculpting that for the other.

1:11:55Oh, my gosh. It's beautiful. You know, but that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. They can so they can be the only great one in a relationship. Really? Yeah. So is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?

1:12:20I actually love when that happens so that kind of gets a lot of water supply for everybody else. Oh my god. Because they're both miserable and they're like perfect for each other. Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing, like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy. But in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship.

1:12:51One partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. it all looks good together. Compliment each other. Ish. Compliment's a strong word. The first time this one, though, might look someplace else because this one's a narcissist. This person, the powerful one, is a narcissistic mate. Notice someone else. This person's going to blow up because they're doing their beautiful thing full time. And they're like, how can someone be more beautiful than me? And if you're not looking at me obsessive, then that can be all the attention.

1:13:23Lots of jealousy. Lots of volatility. Lots of me, me, me. Lots of egocentricity. Lots of... On social media, it's like, I'm so blessed, hashtag love my person, hashtag best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see that because I'm like, oh, yeah, there we go. You know, another super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship. But it's very superficial, very volatile, no empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's are, as long as none of them have kids.

1:14:00Because that's a real... You're a mess. Yeah. You're traumatized. It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up either... They either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good look.

1:14:18I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed. Yeah. How many... What's the percentage? how many uh what's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists do we have that even okay so here's here's where it gets interesting so let's let's start with something we haven't talked about yet so give me a way to talk about this a lot of people use the word narcissistic the term narcissistic personality disorder i actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it because it's a mistake to use that languaging and i'll tell you why narcissistic personality disorder okay and pd so lots of people out there will say oh i'm in this relationship or I've got this boss and they have narcissistic personality disorder.

1:14:56I'm always like, slow down, sister. Okay. Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'm going to be honest with you, if I have a client in my office, it usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with, with a disorder. Because you could have narcissistic personality traits. Correct. It's different than a disorder. It's very different. And it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to It could be more like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits as opposed to...

1:15:26It's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like we call it subjective distress. So depressed people are like, they're like, I'm miserable. I can't I'm miserable I'm sad all the time I can't get out of bed that's subjective distress or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of right it's causing problems for them where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that first of all a lot of narcissists are on top of the world they think their lives are great they walk around I'm I'm the one I'm the guy.

1:16:16I'm, you know, I'm number one. I'm the best. Look how great I am. I've got money. I've got success. I've got the girl, whatever it is. It's working. So everything's working for them. So that's no subjective distress. No. Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases, they may be having trouble at work. And then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece. Like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives.

1:16:49We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social... We can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Make sense? Yeah. It has to be that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time or I got a DUI. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's... Okay. So now let's go to the numbers. Because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder.

1:17:33So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6%, okay? That's people who are diagnosed with a disorder. Diagnosed with this. Okay, so they've gone into research studies. But most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions. So the million-dollar question. How many do you think it is? This is my number. This is the Dr. Romani number. Yeah. Okay? I'm going with 20 % to 25%. Oh, of the world or of the U.S.? Of the world. One in five to one in four. You think it's narcissistic? One in five is probably, and I'm saying adults.

1:18:11Let's take the kids out, okay? So 18 and above, 20%. That would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25%. I think that just the pressures of the city, especially New York, LA, LA being an entertainment city, the nature that sort of the, it's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25 % here. So that's one in five. So, buddy, if you know five people, one of them is narcissistic. When do you know someone is not a narcissist, what are the qualities that they possess, the real qualities? It's empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, emotional regulation.

1:19:08managing this is more of the emotional regulation like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment um genuine curiosity about others setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them having a strong yeah strong having a strong sense of identity um a sense of who they are having a having a solid sense of values um um, conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic. It's nice to be around those two people. Oh, they're so good. And I, I feel blessed. I have, I have a fair number of those in my life, but I'm very careful.

1:19:46Like I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like I don't, I, and I've made them as recently as this year, I've let more than a few in. So it happens. You let narcissistic people in. Yeah. I'm getting, And I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship, one thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's unfortunately a one in five. What are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people, one of them.

1:20:21And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three. Oh, my gosh. I have so many memories. Yeah, this is for a whole other conversation off camera about why I think I attracted some of these things. This is fascinating. So even you, you attracted people in your life. 100%. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. What are they? My personal vulnerabilities are things like I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough. Really? I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder.

1:21:06So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. Like I don't, I've been through too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boiled it down to one simple thing, is that I feel like I'm not good enough. Because I feel like I'm not good enough. I let those kinds of people in. So what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates. And not let anyone in.

1:21:41Not let anyone in, unfortunately. Yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect. Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself? It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic adjacent. But I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm not enough kind of thing. Really? Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work in my own therapy on that consistently. But I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's great. It's interesting.

1:22:17I've got my staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. This is what's so remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs. They're like, we feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. I'm like, good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're, I mean, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women. Yeah. so what's the key uh to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't so that when we see someone coming in we just say no we're okay we don't need to let you into our life so let's go back to the carl rogers the humanist i was talking about before it's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are i mean if we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy who judges energy right like you know we're all lovable because we're this stuff of life you know we're and that makes us beautiful and lovable we're and so it's who said this carl rogers talks about conditions of worth dr romany says and many others i do believe say we're energy like who judges energy it's like judging the sun i guess we do like we wear sunscreen you're right right but you know what i mean like it's a these conditions of worth like whatever people say to themselves.

1:23:37I'm not attractive enough. I'm not smart enough. I'm not rich enough. I'm not accomplished enough. I'm not this enough. I'm not that enough. Those conditions of worth, if I'm, I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed. Wow. So it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable. All of us, not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive or rich or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you.

1:24:13Look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's a lot to break out of. And so I think that and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were taught, they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of, well, I'm not, they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting. I'm not enough. And I get attention when I excel in something that they like. And so let me do more of that to get more attention. Exactly. And if I lose at that, then they're not going to love me. That's exactly right.

1:24:47So it all becomes like people think like, if I do these things and I can be loved rather than you're just lovable. And so that's the, that's where people, most people lose the plot. And, and I think the other piece, those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change. Or I just got to get to know them better. Or they don't really mean that. We enable it. We justify it. But if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not OK. That entitled behavior, not OK. And honestly, get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this.

1:25:27They're behaving like this. So how do you create boundaries with the narcissist? It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get disinterested and they walk away. Right? You're not an easy mark anymore. Right? So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like, get away from them. This is dangerous. But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?

1:25:57Yeah, but I'm like, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the backwater. Right, right, right. It's wanting to fall out. So it's a, because charming, charismatic people, I would say then always make sure they have humility. There you go. If you have the humility back. That's the unicorn. That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble. They're all that. They're incredible. And they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you? They'll talk a little bit about you. That's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. Or you can see how they're talking to other people, their interest in other people.

1:26:37They're not talking down to people maybe because, let's say, they're in a service position that evening. And not in a smarmy, like, oh, the server's my best friend. But they're not like that. It's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. I mean, they're just really, they're present in a situation. They're not elitist. They're not status conscious. That kind of humility, you know, that they don't brag. You know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are. That's cool. They're not talking about, oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment.

1:27:13And my, no, they're just, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because, again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. you have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not drink the Kool-Aid. Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us? I think that... One in five of your friends is a narcissist. I mean, again, if we're using this number of 20%, okay, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just... I mean, it's a spitball number, and it's just sort of boiled up in this world, and it may be...

1:27:53fervent myth i don't know it's it's hard to get good data on this right you know it's it's the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology because who's going to be honest about it right there's all these back doors we try to do to figure it out but i'd say the other things i let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist because i think that we've been talking We've so much focused on the narcissist. The question is, what if I've just been through this? Is there a sense of PTS that you're going to face?

1:28:25A lot of PTS. You'll see it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore. A sort of sense of like, I can't be bothered with life, rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall. you remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, well, no, because that part wasn't really real. It wasn't real. It was like this explosive. People have physical symptoms. They have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors, we call them, like things like working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time.

1:29:13They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships. Because they'll start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this? What was I thinking? I'm an idiot. You know. Worst part. It's the self-blame and the self-shame. Because the self-blame is this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known. And then I'm a fool. And then a lot of people go back. Why? Right. So here. Why? Because they think, let's talk a little bit, I want my whiteboard.

1:29:47Yes. I got to use the whiteboard. So here we go. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle, okay? Step one is something called, I'll write it down, I'll lift it up, love bombing, okay? Okay. Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex. Texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third date. I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month. My lease is up.

1:30:30Love bombing. It's exciting. It's intoxicating. It's seductive. And what it does, it's a narcissist ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flies. because you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep. The nice long beginning. Or the unreal sex you're having or these amazing, like constantly being these text messages or going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like, okay, what red flags? I'm having my fairytale. This is incredible, yeah. The minute the narcissist knows they've got you, when you kind of let down your guard, because some people are like, this seems too good to be true.

1:31:06And then they're like, okay, I love you too. Oh, all right. I'm, boom, that's the day. Something called devaluing starts, okay? Oh, my gosh. Now, devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs. Like, oh, gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook. Oh, my gosh. Or, you know, it's like the digs. It's little. It's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like, where's this? because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here? Now they start blaming themselves. Because it was this, now it's this. It must be me. Oh my gosh.

1:31:51Now then we go to... I just feel like you're going through my life right now. Okay. We go to something called the discard. Now the discard is not always a breakup. Is this where like they won't speak to you for two weeks? It's the silent treatment. It's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be even sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point. Like the not narcissistic person leaves. Like, I'm out. I'm out. I can't do this. And then comes a phase called, I'm going to write it and then unveil it to you. Yes, yes. Very love-bombly of me.

1:32:35Hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, you're going to try to woo you back. Love bombing part two. Now, love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, maybe what was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to me. This could be because they cheated on you. Right. And they say things like, you're so much better. And you know what? People fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic.

1:33:10That idea, very edible, that you're the favored child, that you're the favored one. And the hoovering is... Choosing you. Then part of the hoovering is a dynamic called... You're going to love this one, is my guess, after the way you've been putting... Future... Future faking. Okay. Future faking is, no, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to. Or I'm going to get therapy. Or I know, let's just put it off for another six months. For sure I'm going to do it then. They keep moving the goalposts. And future faking is what keeps people in the game. Because they're like, they're promising the thing you want.

1:33:46Six months later. We're going to have kids. We're going to have kids. Yeah, for sure. You know, like, I just need to get my career established. And now you're 50 and you don't have kids. or we're going to definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there and I know you said there's some better opportunities for you. You're waiting. Or I'm going to get into therapy. I'm going to work on these anger issues. And then if you push it, God, you know what? You're really impatient. You are not a nice person. Can't you just see what I'm going through in my life and I need time?

1:34:17That's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they're done. So people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, oh, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered because then it goes back to the cycle goes again and again and again. So what is hoovering again? Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in, suck you back in. Oh, they bring you back in. And they'll do that. Let's say they're the one who left you, okay?

1:34:49And you finally start getting your life in order. and maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up or you're in a good place and you've got a job you want. They don't want you happy. They don't like losing and they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination. Oh my gosh.

1:35:10Okay. So I tell people like maybe you can get a good a good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out. And then get out. Like before you get in too deep. But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you. And then you're like, you know what? They're going to get mad. I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me. Like, it's not you. It's me. I'm not ready. They're going to get mad. They're going to get mad. So either way, once you get in, once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're... You're kind of sunk.

1:35:39Yeah, because, and they actually... You need to get out then. Yeah, they want to get out. You want to get out the first weekend. You want to get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people. And it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. they um they they drive really badly they drive dangerously they cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off on the freeway and that's actually been documented in research so a narcissist is a bad driver bad driver dangerous driver not bad not like dumb driver fast cut people off hong kong road gagey driver yeah oh my god you got to use the whiteboard i like it anything else we should use on there you got another graph or diagram I love this stuff.

1:36:17I love this. This is fascinating. Anything else we should talk about? Last thing. Yes, give it to me. Gaslighting. Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a note here. Okay, so gaslighting is the word of our time. And if nothing else, your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people get things right here. So what is gaslighting? Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking a part of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process.

1:36:58It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything. and I would say, and we had our time, we were going to meet the date. I said, you never said we were meeting on that date. You'd be like, what? And then you'd go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute and say, did I not send that email right? And you catch yourself, okay?

1:37:32The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship. And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. No, no, no. You did. You really did. Like you said that. Or I'm not being too sensitive. And now you're getting more and more worked up. Right? Yeah. And then, you know, they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes. Somebody is a little bit crazy.

1:38:06Like, have you seen a therapist? So now what are they doing? Not only have they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom. They close it by saying there's something wrong with you. Oh, man. And you start believing it. Oh, wow. Many people are gaslighted. We'll start wondering, maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness. Maybe I need to get help. There's something wrong with me. And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person. Oh, my gosh. That's the process. And so, but initially, the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter.

1:38:42Maybe they're in a new relationship together. Maybe this is a family member. Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You've got to have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights, you say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting, and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target. Ooh, they'll stop with you. Yeah, because, yeah, so they'll say, like, this is not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one, right?

1:39:13So early on, when a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm going to stick with that. That's a good one. That's a good one. Right? And then the gaslighter will probably lose interest, but they'll always get their last dig in. They'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslighting. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday. Literally three hours, all gaslighting, because that's how much people are confused by this.

1:39:51It happens at work. it happens in families it happens in relationships it happens from the world at large like no every everyone can every the playing field's equal and then the people are like it can't be equal so the first the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you what should you say without them saying because i feel like this happened to me in a previous relationship where i'd be like no i never said that and then it was like they bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, you this, this, this, this. And I'll be like, well, just focus on the one thing we're talking about.

1:40:26And so I have to go to, you know, go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about in the first place. That's gaslighting. That all that deflection. It's very exhausting. It's like, let's just focus on this thing. So a great example, what gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like in a relationship and you know I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person and there's been a lot of communication between the two of you like it doesn't feel good it doesn't feel good to me this feels shady it feels like a boundary violation like this isn't okay they'll hit back with let's go back to when you were in college and you're like, wait a minute.

1:41:09And then you know what I tell people? Have a whiteboard. Say, okay, I'm going to table that. We'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it. Let's go back to the original issue. So keep going back to the original thing. Go back to the original issue. Until they have a discussion and resolve. They'll get mad. And they won't discuss. They won't discuss. So how do you find resolve? You don't find resolve. In these relationships. There's no resolve. There is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance. Oh my gosh. So you just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations.

1:41:41This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's going to be their way or the highway. And they won't be flexible. And you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time, or you can choose to move on. Right. But being in an argument is only going to make your life worse. Correct. And you might say, like, that seems lonely. Yeah. And so I have worked with people who have stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships.

1:42:16Unless the narcissist tries to control them hanging out with their friends. If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissists, it won't work. if they you know but if you can build out friendships if you can build out collegial relationships if you're working church community some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way develop hobbies they care deeply about a garden building something whatever their groove is music something like that I've known people that have lovers you know to say like I haven't my body hasn't been touched in 15 years and so they'll do that and they'll say I felt a little guilty but they're having sex with other people I haven't been touched and they're like you know I know I'm not and they're like I know I'm not very attractive but they found everyone's got someone everyone finds someone and they find there's someone and so I've heard it all I've heard people do all kinds of things finding their way um finding their way to get that support on the um when they're not being when when they have to stay because that's where you get ungaslighted right person saying oh that's not okay or this person's conduct isn't okay.

1:43:21But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, I can fix this. And I'm telling you here, you can't. Stop trying to fix it. Stop trying to fix it. It's just not going to work. That was probably my challenge is I wanted to fix. Which again, your athletic background, it makes sense. I mean, people who have had a track record of being able to get things done, they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long. I think I was attracted to it and then wanted to stay in it. It's attractive. And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else as opposed to a combination of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life, not all the energy in one place.

1:44:05Correct. Correct. And it's very, it is very draining. And I think a lot of people do feel like, you know, a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No, relationship. Yeah, being unselfish. No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work? And you're like, of course, I'll go to that dinner for work because you care about them. And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it is that you understand that there's a give and take and you give graciously.

1:44:40And the other person gives graciously this isn't just about you know grinding your teeth and you know being irritated you have to go but really that group that giving was grace but at the i'll be frank with you it really comes down though to finding somebody who has a good personality that it's not it's and i keep using what agreeableness right being so being agreeable and that's actually a personality style how do you know when someone's agreeable all those things i talk about flexibility and warmth and kindness just the time it's just yeah over time seeing their words for their actions agreeable men make less money.

1:45:12Agreeable men make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly. Bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's going to be agreeable is a lot lower. So you just need to find a unicorn, someone who's agreeable and who has money. I have not. You've never seen that? I know. Yes, I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head. Billionaire. Most agreeable man in the world. Sweet, sweet. Kind, humble. Married to a rager narcissist. You can't. You can't. He's a darling. Oh, man. But just gets walked all over in his relations.

1:45:51Oh, my God. Beyond. Walked all over. But in his business, he can go and have. Killed it. He can be assertive and, yeah. I've met a few agreeable rich folks. I mean, really. I mean, not just rich. Like, really good at what they do. They, unicorns. Like, they definitely. But what was interesting. You know, with some of the, a couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy. At the end of their career, they got taken down. They got, like, people in their company, they were a soft target. They were the vulnerable target. They were the vulnerable target. They built the company. And they're going to, we're going to take the equity from them, or they're going to be in line of blame.

1:46:27They did. They got a group of, they got voting block. Because they weren't willing to fight for what they. Well, no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable. They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs. And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation. It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I've talked about this many times on my show, that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that process and really go through a healing journey of, you know, the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough, or not feeling lovable, all these different things.

1:47:13And to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative, and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in. And channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? how can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book, The Mask of Man, yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously. And what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in and then they become angry or reactive or rapeful or, you know, dismissive or whatever it is, they put a mask on.

1:47:57And, you know, that shame causes that mask, at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So I can't remember where I was going with this, but for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind and heal that process. And it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive. It was like I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. You know, it got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled. And I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. then i started transitioning and when i hit 30 to i just want to collaborate and i just want to support others and work together and it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling what do you think the function was of trying to win oh to get love be accepted to get love and be accepted i was gonna say maybe to be safe yeah to get love to be accepted to feel like i was yeah to fit in you know because i didn't feel i had any friends growing up so it was like well if i win people recognize me and they like me.

1:48:59Right, right. And I'm desirable. Right. If I lose, then who wants to be, you know, around me? Yeah, and then the shame gets activated. But it's also safety. I mean, that's why that idea, if I win, I'm safe. Yeah, yeah. That's the ultimate get for any human. I'm not alone. To be safe. I'm not alone. If I'm accepted, I'm safe. If I'm loved, I'm safe. And it's funny, when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot, when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know that's what I feel like for the last eight years. Because you're safe when you're still collaborating.

1:49:30You're still with people. You're helping each other accelerate together. Right. But there's a fear. And I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a blockade. And then if they leave you. I'm at the top of the mountain. Everyone else is down. Yes. If they leave you, it's not the collaboration that's the issue. It's the potential for abandonment. Interesting. Like if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top, but then I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind.

1:50:03Well, they took it all away. I mean, this was somebody, and that man, the agreeable billionaire, was collaborative from the day one of his career. So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not get taken advantage of? It's not easy. With the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is, you know what what is the best the best offense is a good defense you better have a good defense yeah get your contracts in order get everything contracts in order document um don't put your head in the sand i mean a lot the reason narcissism has proliferated the way it has is enabling people keep giving it a free pass oh come on now you know don't what is it don't don't hate the don't hate the player hate the game it's not how that works right it's a player and yeah so it's It's a player.

1:50:50Yeah. Yeah. No. So like it's a, we have all this kind of culture around and in some ways people like want to see, they, the best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic. Want to believe they're. We want to believe that this charismatic person is real, that someone this larger than life is larger than life, rather than an ordinary person who just has ordinary things and could fall.

1:51:34We want superheroes. That's why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle. I'm reading that. you've got some great books. Thank you. Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. It just feels like the best way to, you know, set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place take it slow learn the person learn as long as you can spot the red flags you talk a lot about this in these books you talk about this on your YouTube channel which is amazing I was watching some of the videos very inspiring so if you want to make sure you learn this I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with the person take it slow and And don't justify bad behavior.

1:52:43When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, you know, scorpions sting. It's not going to go away. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got it's going to sting you. So walk the other way. And once it stings you once, don't pick it up again. I haven't dated a couple of scorpions. Yeah. Not that all scorpions are guys, but it's funny. um how else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website youtube social media the books yeah you do workshops now i do workshops if you go to my instagram follow me on instagram we often put you know we put the uh let people know what's coming up then we're going to have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships that's coming up next year um yeah just follow me on youtube we're always making our announcements there every day we have a new video coming out so you would be 365 days wiser if you Just keep watching.

1:53:41Yeah. Dr. Romani everywhere, right? Yeah, Dr. Romani everywhere. Everywhere. There we go. Okay, cool. A couple of final questions. This one is called the three truths. That's what I ask everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else. But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. Books, the videos, everything's gone. but you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences and this is all we would have from your information what would you say would be those three lessons or three truths if someone else is cruel to you it's not your fault okay you came into this world lovable and will always be lovable

1:54:39and trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you. Those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Romney, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, have gone through a lot of this who've always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships and so for you to commit your adult life to this to researching studying teaching uh in the university in an academic level and now you know to the masses with your information your books your content i really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life.

1:55:42Well, I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor. Absolutely it is. And it's going to keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's going to keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

1:56:00My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy. There you go. Dr. Romney, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. This is amazing. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. and if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you wanna make it easier, you wanna make it flow, you wanna feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is gonna help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward.

1:56:50I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

1:57:28And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.