Burnout Is a Sign You're Doing the Wrong Work | Jonathan Fields

16:54Lewis Howes:It's not everything I want. But it's good just enough to not drive them to want to make a change or see, like, growth in some area. Like, it's almost like they're just, okay. Like, it's good, you know, but I want more, but I don't know how to do it. And I'd rather have like, man, everything is breaking down right now because then I can wake up and go for, you know, something like what I'm supposed to be doing with my life and how I can really lean into that. So when things are good, and I know the whole thing is about the Good Life Project, but it's like when things are good and you're not driven to do 100 % of what you're supposed to do.

17:34Lewis Howes:You know, you're like 70, 80 % of what you're supposed to do, but not all the way there. it's hard to get that extra 20%, I think, personally.

17:42Jonathan Fields:Yeah. It's scary for me. I know. And like, we've had this debate over years now. It's like, can't you just be satisfied with where you're at?

17:48Lewis Howes:You'd be like driven from work.

17:50Jonathan Fields:And I think a lot of it actually is, I think we actually really agree, but we just use different language. Yes, of course. You know, like, because what you just described to me is actually not a good life or the good life. Right. To me, that's the complacent life of sort of like baseline getting by. Right? But what I'm interested in is underneath that, whether we use the word great or good, like underneath what I'm looking at, the qualities of the life. Absolutely. Do I have a strong sense of meaningfulness? Yeah, fulfillment. Right. Do I have a sense of immediate purpose and also a larger sense of purpose in life?

18:23Jonathan Fields:Am I excited and enthusiastic about what I'm doing? Do I feel like I'm fully expressed on a personal level, on a potential level? Yes. And what I'm more focused on, and I think this has been an evolution just in my personal thought, is like, what are we actually talking about? And I think when you're talking about greatness and I'm talking about good, we're actually talking about the same underlying qualities. Yeah, of course. And I think the pursuit of those is amazing. And when you don't have any of that, then yeah, you wake up every morning and the world is just not right.

18:54Lewis Howes:Yeah, it's like the superficial, like things look good, but you know there's something more for you. You know you're supposed to be doing something. Yeah.

19:01Jonathan Fields:See, I thought you were going to go to a different place, too. Really? Yeah. Because I thought what you were going to say was when, for some people, when everything's going well, everything's going good, there's a different anxiety experience that very often crops up. Like what? And there's a different set of fears, which is all about loss aversion.

19:22Lewis Howes:This is all going to go away?

19:24Jonathan Fields:Right. Which is like I built all this thing. like the relationship, the money, the job, the security, the health, all of this. Things are so good that I think there is a pathology that I've seen in a lot of folks which says either I'm not worthy, it's not going to work, it's not sustainable, and I'm terrified about this all going away or pieces of it going away. And then that creates an anxiety spin that actually leads to sort of like a contraction in all of the efforts and all of the outreach and all the conversation, the honesty and integrity that would let everything keep going. And then you inadvertently sabotage a genuinely good status quo without realizing that you're doing it by contracting and no longer supporting or investing in it.

20:11Jonathan Fields:Not realizing that it's actually that contraction and everything starting to go away is a direct result.

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23:32Lewis Howes:We're aligned by not abandoning ourselves. are, how do we not sabotage ourselves when everything is going really, really good? Yeah, I have no idea. How do we not fall back in old patterns?

23:46Jonathan Fields:Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting, you know, a lot of it has to do with, I think it's a blend of wisdom, so like personal learning, a commitment to growth, right? Inner practices, you know, whether, and those are the practices that keep you physically, emotionally, cyclically, spiritually, healthy and focused and present and able to be resilient and respond rather than react. And also external scaffolding. The circumstances in your life. And that might include relationships. That might include your physical environment. That might include creating all sorts of default states that help you do the thing that you know you, quote, want to be doing to support the life that you're living without you having to everyday They consciously make the choice to do it.

24:35Jonathan Fields:Katie Milkman talks a lot about this in her work and her research on behavior change. And that it's not just about self-control. It's not just about willpower. You know, there's a whole bunch of inner and outer scaffolding that you can create that make it so you don't have to wake up every day and use all this cognitive bandwidth to make the decisions to make everything stay okay. Some of that you do want to be intentional. But there's also a lot of things that we kind of put on autopilot that will help us basically take the decision or take the actions that we want to take by default without even having to think about them.

25:07Jonathan Fields:Right, right.

25:09Lewis Howes:What about if we feel like we're in a rut? How can someone do you think get out of it through, is it through a set of questions? Is it through a set of changes in their life? Yeah. Is it through analyzing it? Is it through action?

25:21Jonathan Fields:You know, I'm going to give you like an answer you probably didn't expect. Because I looked at like almost every system that you could look at to try and figure things like this out. And there's a simple set of prompts that I've come back to over the years that I find really powerful. And that is Katie Byron's The Work. She's great. Right? I mean, it's like, what is it, four or five questions, right? Like really simple questions. Like, you know, you're in a moment where something's spinning in your head that's stopping you from taking action. And you make all sorts of assumptions about it that paralyze you.

25:51Jonathan Fields:And you ask these really simple questions like, is it true? Where's the evidence for? Where's the evidence against? So I think a really simple set of prompts can be incredibly powerful with that. If you're really in a rut where it's causing you mental illness or genuine emotional struggle, seek help, obviously. Go and find professional help. But I think really basic processes and prompts like the work are really powerful. For me, one of the anchors in my life is a meditation practice, a daily meditation practice. I wake up every morning for over a decade now, and I have both a breathing and a meditation practice that changes my physiology, but it also changes my state of mind.

26:37Jonathan Fields:So that as I move into my day, things may go south. There may be things that drop into my day that I don't want to happen, that I didn't see coming, that really just knock me back. but what I found is that over the years that practice creates a baseline level of equanimity that allows you to sort of like be more intentional about the way that you move through it and also relating back to being in a rut zoom the lens out a little bit take a little bit more of a meta view into the thing that is causing you this feeling of stuckness and be able to kind of say huh what's really happening here because usually it's not the thing that you think it is there's something bigger going on.

27:22And if you can address the bigger thing, then everything starts to free

27:25Jonathan Fields:itself on its own. Yeah.

27:28Lewis Howes:And I think a lot of the things where you feel like you're in a rut is you don't feel like you're implementing meaningful actions in your life or you don't have meaningful work. So what would you say are kind of the key factors to identifying meaningful work for yourself?

27:43Jonathan Fields:Yeah. It's funny because I think a lot of people look at work and like you said, It's all about taking care of the basic stuff. And it is. That all matters. We've got to sustain ourselves in the world and feel secure.

27:58Jonathan Fields:I think the first way to actually really understand how to find meaningful work is to realize that meaningful work matters. Most people don't look at a job and be like, oh, is this meaningful to me? Is this opportunity meaningful to me? Is this project, will it actually give me the feeling that it matters, I matter, that there's a sense of meaning? We're not actually using that as a criteria to judge what to say yes or no to. What are we using? Like, is it pay well? Will it advance my career? Will it give me power, prestige, status? Will it help build certain relationships? And again, it's not that any of those things are bad, right?

28:33Jonathan Fields:But if all of those things are purely a proxy for meaningfulness and a sense of purpose and express potential and excitement and enthusiasm, then you may find yourself super accomplished and utterly empty inside. That's true. You've climbed the ladder. Awesome. You've got the money. You've got the job. You've got all the stuff that you wanted to check off on your achievement box. And then you're sitting there and you're like, okay, so I don't feel the way I thought I would feel. And now I've gotten everything that I tried to get. I don't know what my next move is. And the answer is because those things aren't actually the things that matter.

29:13Jonathan Fields:in life. They aren't the things that make you feel good. They alone will not give you the feeling that you're looking for. There's got to be something deeper. Whether you do that something deeper in the context of your J-O-B that you get paid for, or you do it as a role in your life, or as a devotion, or as a volunteer on the side, if it doesn't get out, if it doesn't get expressed in some way, shape, or form, that feeling of emptiness never goes away.

29:40Lewis Howes:It's almost like you need to chase more power, fame, money, prestige to try to feel something, but then it's never enough.

29:49Jonathan Fields:Yeah. I think that's a big part of it. We're in this moment now where – so everyone's heard the term midlife crisis, right? The classic, you know, like you hit your 40s and all of a sudden you want to blow everything up and like regain your hair and like lose weight. Yeah. But the thing about an existential crisis, an existential crisis is not a crisis of money. It's not a crisis of power. It's not a crisis of fame. It's not a crisis of what it is a crisis of is meaning. You're questioning the meaning of your existence. Because you show up at a certain point in your life and something inside of you says, I don't matter.

30:33Jonathan Fields:And the thing that I wake up in the morning doing that consumes a third of my life, It doesn't matter. Most of my waking hours. It doesn't matter to me and it doesn't matter to the world. And when you cannot find something that gives you the feeling of meaningfulness, you experience profound sense of loss. And that can lead to really dark places. So what we're seeing now. Where people just blow up their lives. I'm going after this. I'm changing this. So a lot of people will work for 20 years and then hit that point where they're kind of like, all right, it's just all built up. and they almost cause it themselves.

31:09Jonathan Fields:What we're seeing now is that people aren't raising their hand and saying, okay, it's time for my existential change. The world has served this up at scale to everyone. So a lot of folks have looked at generations and looked at their expectations for work. Yeah, I'm Gen X. We're the disaffected generation in theory. We expected nothing. and just like put your head down and do the work. You know, the generations behind me, I hate to use like generational terms because it's like, but the interesting thing is that like millennials, even though millennials is not one generation, it's actually like a wide range of people.

31:49Jonathan Fields:But like, so you fall into that group, right? Like an old millennial, I think, yeah. Right, so a lot of the corporate world for years has struggled because something happened in the generation behind me where the expectation for meaning, the expectation for purpose beyond money, beyond status, has gone up dramatically. So corporations, organizations that were built without assuming that that had to be something that was part of what they provided, and then they have millions of new workers coming into the organizations expecting that. And if they don't get it, they've gone really fast. Corporations have been grappling with this in a way that, And they haven't figured out how to actually deliver this.

32:35Jonathan Fields:And now all of a sudden, the last 18 months happens. It's not just millennials anymore. It is everybody who's showing up at work and saying, we want more. We want more. Like the way that I have felt for the last 20 years is not the way that I want to feel for the next 20 years. And I don't know how to make a decision that will make me feel different. Wow. And this is something that the world of work is starting to grapple with right now. Yeah. At a scale that we've never seen before.

33:08Lewis Howes:I've seen different studies and people saying like, okay, the work from home culture is here to stay and people have more flexibility and they're around their families more and they're enjoying that, less commute, all these different things. But then I'm also hearing that on the other side of the coin, it's like, okay, well, company culture is down and there's not the connection, the in-person, the productivity is down because it's blended between work, life, all at the same time with interruptions at home. It's almost like we were mentioning before. It's almost like people used to complain about the commute to work.

33:40But that was almost a time like you, I don't know, you cross over from like, okay, here's my boundary.

33:47Lewis Howes:I do what I need to do to get to work. And then I focus. and then when I leave, I like clear my mind and I get home and then I'm at home. And now it's, you're working and you're at home the whole time, it seems like. It's almost like the thing people complain about, the commute, is actually one of the best things. Whether it's 10 minutes or maybe two hours is not good. For sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, because it provided a transition window. A window. Not like, I'm in my bedroom and now I'm at the chair in my bedroom in front of a computer.

34:14Jonathan Fields:And like, we'd already seen a blurring that over the last decade because of connectivity and technology. Yeah. The expectation that you're always going to be on seven days a week. And if your device is on, then you should be responding. But when you actually then physically conflate your work environment with your home environment, and you remove even that opportunity to physically transition from one place to another, the problem gets exacerbated in a really big way. So all these things, we were already spiraling down into not a good place. but this has sort of like brought everything to the surface.

34:51Jonathan Fields:But at the same time, it's sort of like you look at all the stats and there is no such thing as disruption without possibility. It doesn't exist. What does that mean? It's not a natural phenomenon. Disruption and impossibility are two sides of the exact same coin. So if there's a massive disruption, right, you may be reeling because you have personally been disrupted. An organization, an industry may be reeling because all the assumptions that they've built everything on have been shattered. But that moment, that level of upheaval, uncertainty, and stakes cannot exist without equal and sometimes opposite possibility being birthed simultaneously.

35:31Jonathan Fields:So the question becomes when we're talking about like an individual at work is, yeah, nobody saw, well, you can't say nobody saw the last couple of years coming. But what has happened has been profoundly disruptive. in a way that we've never imagined was possible. And at the same time, we're moving through a lot of pain and a lot of people had to figure out in the blink of an eye, okay, so how do I get myself as okay as I can in the context of work? There's a lot of other domains that they've had to do that in health and relationships, but in the context of work specifically. And a lot of folks have figured it out.

36:11Jonathan Fields:But what's happened in the middle of all of this is if there's this level of disruption, then you start asking the question, where is the possibility? Because it has to exist. It has to exist. What's the possibility right now? Right. So I'll use me as an example. We've been in the podcast world for a long time together. For the entirety of our show, part of the big differentiation was like Good Life Project, will always be produced in the studio in person, like what you're doing, right? We wanted to raise the bar from the earliest day for production value. We said no to a lot of people I thought would be amazing to speak with because they weren't in New York, they weren't gonna be in the studio and I wouldn't do anything remote.

36:58Jonathan Fields:You were doing Skype or whatever. Right, I could not conceive. You were doing all video and everything. Right, I could not conceive of being able to have the quality of conversations, the safety, intimacy and trust in a virtual space. I was just like, I can't do it and if I have to do that, I'll do something else. So for six years, we produced conversations in person, in the studio, in New York. And I said, all right, so let's start to test all the assumptions, right? Katie Byron's the work. What is true? Where's the evidence for? Where's the evidence against? And once you start to realize, a lot of my assumptions were really wrong.

37:31Jonathan Fields:And now how can we actually completely redo our production process so that we can recreate the trust and safety and intimacy in the virtual space? How do we experiment with different platforms? How do we change the way that I go about creating things? And then we started to realize, okay, so we're up and running again, but doing everything virtually. And then I'm realizing, okay, so I always believed you could never create safety and intimacy in a virtual space. But what I'm seeing is that everybody is in their home right now. So we don't have the cocoon effect that I love, like, you know, where we're like in this, where we're casting a spell in the same space together.

38:09Jonathan Fields:But what we do have is the safety and trust of somebody being in their own home. And feeling comfortable in their own space. Which is different.

38:16Lewis Howes:Not in their office and not in the area.

38:18Jonathan Fields:Right, right. Because everybody's home at that point. So it's different. But at the same time, it made everything okay. And I realize we're having still like tremendous conversations. Would I love to get back into the studio soon? And do I hope, you know, like we'll do more of this as we, of course. Yeah. Then I widen the lens out. I'm like, okay, so if my assumption has been we always have to be in New York because that's where everybody who I'm going to want to talk to, similar reason to why you're in LA. Everyone's going to be in one of these two cities at some point. Well, if we're actually producing remotely and our team is distributed around the world from the post-production side, on a personal level, what kind of freedom does that give us?

38:59Jonathan Fields:Well, we've thought about living somewhere else. Right. Not staying in New York. So all of a sudden, we find ourselves in September of last year, after growing up outside New York, living in New York City for 30 years, pulling up our roots. And literally, as I sit here with you right now, if you ask me where is home, I can tell you legally I'm a resident of Colorado. We're even living in Boulder, Colorado. We're pulled out entirely of New York. But we're also sort of experimenting with different locations. you know and i'm and i'm traveling around sometimes with my wife who's also my business partner so we're in life and work together sometimes with our daughter you know like who's in and out of college and so so there's this kind of like magical possibility where when you start to actively look for it you know that is all around you um but when you're when you're so fiercely disrupted without seeing it coming and there's a lot of pain that goes along with it um it sometimes takes a huge amount of energy to pull out of the feeling of trauma and sometimes support and help mental health like you know support from your community everybody to get to a place where you can actually start to ask the question what is true what is not true and where is the possibility that's a really long kind of rant my friend i hope you're enjoying

40:19Lewis Howes:this episode and the school of greatness drops new conversations every monday wednesday and friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them. Please tap the follow button right now, and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now, let's get back to the conversation. Support for this episode comes from Amazon Business. When it comes to your business, procurement shouldn't be a guessing game. Whether you're running a small business or managing a large organization, Amazon Business offers smart purchasing experiences designed to meet your unique needs.

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41:43Lewis Howes:Visit amika.com and get a quote today. So if we go back to the question, what should I be doing with my life right now? How do we start to answer that and figure it out?

41:54Jonathan Fields:And this has been the focus of so much of my work, even in before times, is really how do we find and do work that nourishes us, that makes us come alive? And when I say come alive, I'm talking about those things I've already talked about. For me, it's like five things. It's meaningful. It's excitement, enthusiasm. It's expressed potential. um it's flow you become absorbed in the activity and lose the sense of time and sense of actually you being apart from uh the activity yeah um and it's a broader sense of purpose in life um so how do we find a new work that gives us that feeling like all five of those things weaving in and out of the way that we experience work um and for me you know i i've been fascinated with this question for so long.

42:44Jonathan Fields:And a couple of years ago, I came to believe something I never would have thought that I would believe. And that is this, that we all have a unique impulse for effort that gives us that feeling of coming alive. Effort, you can just use the work instead. Like we're all wired in a certain way where if we invest ourselves, if we do a certain type of thing, then we get a lot closer to that feeling. Once I started to feel this in me, I was like, oh, I notice when I do this type of thing, I feel this type of way. I'm not talking about a job or a title or a company or a role or an industry. I'm talking really, really, really granular.

43:30Jonathan Fields:I'm talking about like DNA level. So when I invest myself in a particular way, I feel alive. And then I started wondering, is this just me or is this everybody? And then are there a mappable set of imprints? Because if there are and we can identify them and then somehow create ideas and tools that would let people understand what that is for you relatively easily, a whole lot of angst would go away. And fundamentally, if I want to make things that move the needle in people's lives, that's what I want to do. And that has literally been my devotion for years now is sort of like identifying those and then helping people figure out like what is that thing.

44:17Lewis Howes:And I took this, you have this book called Spark, Discover Your Unique Imprint for Work That Makes You Come Alive. And there's kind of a quiz that you can take online. And I took the quiz and it tells you your spark type.

44:31Jonathan Fields:Yeah. How many sparks have you? Nine. So there are 10. And I'll break it down for you, right? So yeah, once I identified these imprints, I also realized, okay, so we found these 10 impulses, these 10 imprints for work. It also became really clear that each one of these kind of comes with its own behaviors, tendencies, and preferences that are really common. They're fairly universal for each one of them. And it can be expressed in a really healthy way and also a really neurotic way. And it was amazing to see a larger archetype form around these. So I call them sparkotypes just because it's fun.

45:07Jonathan Fields:It's the archetype that sparks you. But this was still my idea. And I needed larger scale validation. So we built an assessment over a period of a year. We've now had about 500 ,000 people complete the assessment. 25 million data points and gotten some really powerful validation from what started as an observation years ago. and you know so for me my and and the spark types you basically break down to a profile and there are three things that are part of that profile so we can talk about like yours if you want right so and first i'll tell you what the three elements are then let's talk about what yours is i think it's really fascinating um so there's what i call the primary sparkotype think of that as your strongest impulse for work that makes you come alive this is about work or this about life in general it's more about work it's a really good question because when i use the word work i'm i'm including all of the ways that you could actually devote yourself to effort okay it

46:05Lewis Howes:could be a job you get paid for or could be just like it could be being a parent it could be being

46:09Jonathan Fields:a volunteer it could be like the the art that you do on the side because you just can't not do it because of the feeling that it gives you you know it's really nice when you can make it the thing that you wake up in the morning, spend eight to 10 hours a day and get paid for it. That's awesome when you can do it. You can't always do it. But a lot of times you can get way closer than you thought you could once you realize what that thing is. So the primary sparkotype is your strongest impulse. Then we have what I call the shadow. And that's not like the dark side. I call it the shadow because it lives in the shadow of the primary.

46:43Jonathan Fields:And you can look at that one of two ways, right? You can either say, well, it's like the runner up. But we've teased out a much more nuanced relationship over the years, and that is this. Most people do the work of their shadow in order to be able to do the work of their primary better. And we'll break that down in a second. And then there's a third piece of the profile. And that's what I call your anti-sparketype. So what you don't like, what you're not meant to do.

47:09Lewis Howes:This is the work where like... Don't do this.

47:10Jonathan Fields:If you have to do it, it's just, it's emptying. It's draining. You'll do everything you can do to not have to do this. when you do it, it takes the greatest amount of recovery. And the thing is, for a lot of us in everyday life and in our jobs, we do have to do some of that work. Of course. It is what it is. But knowing that there's something deeper that makes you feel this way, it helps you frame it in a way where you understand what's really happening, where you don't picture yourself as lazy or just not devoted or incompetent. You actually understand there's something deeper going on. And on a team basis, when you're working with other people, when everyone understands the impulses at both ends of the spectrum, it becomes an experience where you can really optimize.

47:51Jonathan Fields:And also there's a lot of forgiveness and shame loss that becomes a part of this. Because you don't feel a sense of shame for not rising up because there's something else going on. Again, you may still have to do it, but at least there's a more forgiving emotion wrapped around it. So those are the three parts of any given person's sparkotype profile. So let's talk about you. Yeah, so my primary is the maven. Right. So the fundamental energy of the maven is all about knowledge acquisition. And that shows up in a couple of different ways. For some people, it shows up in this just like broad interest in everything.

48:26Jonathan Fields:You wake up in the morning and you just want to dive into fascinations, topics of interest, people. Like you'll talk to everyone on the planet. You want to know their story. You don't want to use it for anything else. You're not solving a big problem. You just want to know. it and you have no idea yeah you know like everybody that you bump into you just want to know yeah right it also shows up in sometimes really really specific ways we talked about this recently because we go back a long time and when i first met you you know you you're not off your you were not off your sister's couch for that right yeah right and you had you had kind of said okay so kind of done with being a pro athlete yeah but that was sort of like the only thing that I knew.

49:07Jonathan Fields:I devoted my entire life to this. So I'm going to look at this thing called LinkedIn at the time. And I'm going to learn everything on the planet about it. I'm going to know more about this platform than anyone. And I'm going to just dive into it. And you became absolutely possessed with being the one person who knew more than anything about the platform. I've seen this show up in your life broadly. And I've also seen you go, you find rabbit holes. And sometimes there's some really good other thing you want to use the knowledge for. But sometimes it's just so fascinating, just the process of learning, becoming encyclopedic about something in particular.

49:48Jonathan Fields:Yeah.

49:48Lewis Howes:I love that. I mean, I love learning multiple skills and having just a tool belt of skills that I've acquired where maybe I'm obsessed for three months. Maybe it was a year. Maybe I did that with public speaking, with salsa dancing, with, you know, I'm in Spanish lessons. Now it's like all these different things. Podcasting. It's like whatever. It's just like obsessing for a period of time to learn.

50:09Jonathan Fields:And what's interesting is for a lot of Mavis, from the outside looking in, people think that the core drive is the things that they're creating with the knowledge that they're accumulating. And that's nice. It's great that you've been able to build a powerful career and affect a lot of people's lives and a show that makes a really big difference. and at the same time at the end of the day for you like this is almost like in part a funding engine for your relentless desire to just go deep and learn and learn and learn just cover new things and like go deep into that sort of knowledge acquisition rabbit hole right so that's the

50:44Lewis Howes:primary for you that's not the whole thing right so there is this sense of like okay because you have always these questions are very interesting that are in the uh assessment yeah and it's like you know i think one of them was like do you want to do you want to learn for learning sake or do you want to learn to create something to like better something and it's like there's there's all these different types of questions yeah uh so that's the primary the maven for me the shadow is

51:07Jonathan Fields:the maker right what is the maker so so the maker for me is is my primary that is my my main impulse

51:14Lewis Howes:and that's all about making ideas manifest like turning an idea into a thing and i've always thought of myself as an alchemist where it's like i love to turn ideas into a reality whether it's like i want to learn a skill and be able to apply it i have an idea i want to launch a book or a podcast so what you've also said is like they might be complimentary like one two yeah and they

51:32Jonathan Fields:could they could kind of be like fairly close impulses um and they they often work they they kind of like tag team with each other because they serve each other in a really really powerful way you know so for me the maker showed up in my life i was the kid when i was like eight or nine years old where you know like i would have my parents drive me to the town dump we throw bike parts into the back of the old Chevy Blazer. And then I go home and duct tape them together into Frankenbikes. And I've been making things from the time, literally I cannot remember a time in my life where I didn't open my eyes and be like, what can I create today?

52:03Jonathan Fields:I'm obsessed. I'm driven by the impulse to make stuff.

52:07Lewis Howes:So you're the maker. That's your main thing, yeah.

52:10Jonathan Fields:And that's shown up as books. It's shown up as companies. It's shown up as experiences, events. The fundamental energy is idea to something. Right, okay. So that's my secondary shadow. So that's like the high end of like, that's the strong impulsive for you. Right, right. Now let's talk about your anti-sparketype. The anti-sparketype is the essentialist. Right. Okay, so you and I share an anti-sparketype. We have the same type of... Yeah, we have similar profiles. My top end is I'm a maker scientist. So maker primary and scientist shadow. So I make stuff and then I figure out complex things. but it's almost always in service of being better at the creation process.

52:50Jonathan Fields:I don't just go down a rabbit hole because there's a really cool, complex thing that I just want to solve this huge, big, burning question. And an actual scientist, Sparkotite, would be driven by that. I do it, I get to the point where I figure out what I need to figure out to go back to the creation process. So the anti-Sparkotite, right? That's your weakest impulse or the thing that empties you the most, takes the greatest amount of recovery. So the essentialist, the primary essentialist, the impulse is to create order from chaos. It's about systems. It's about process. It's about clarity. It's about a lot of granular.

53:26Jonathan Fields:It's taking complex data sets, processes, steps, all these things that need to happen. Like behind the scenes production for the show, guaranteed. You've got spreadsheets. You've got platforms. You've got a ton of moving pieces. I can't deal with it though. We have like for our show, we have around 40 episodes in production at any given time. Wow. I can't, like, I have, when I look at that, I just want to cry. Right, right. Like, my, because my impulse is run when I see that. And some people see that, like, this is a beautiful piece of art. Right. So our producer is an essentialist. And she looks at that and she's like, yeah, let me add it.

54:03Jonathan Fields:Like, I want to build out these systems. I want to run them. I want to optimize them. I want to make them function better. I want to create order and clarity rather than chaos. and I want to create utility from it also. So when you're not an essentialist, having to do the work of an essentialist is experienced generally as not fun in a really big way. Like when I think about that, in any company I've built in the past, that type of work, before I really even understood this about myself, it would always be the thing that if I had to do it, I would do it for as long as I had to do it because that's what you do when you're starting a business and you're bootstrapped.

54:44Jonathan Fields:But as soon as I was sort of like well enough resourced to have the ability to hand it off or delegate it or contract it out, it would be the first thing. And also because there are people where that impulse is primary. They wake up in the morning and they're like, let me add it. So why not have that person aligned with that work? Absolutely. Because then they're going to show up wanting to do it. They're doing it because of the feeling it gives them and the fact that actually it's a full-time job and you can support yourself. That's awesome. But they're probably also doing things on the side on a volunteer basis or a free basis that are really similar just because of the feeling that it gives them.

55:26Jonathan Fields:But for me and you, not that. Nah, I'm going to run from that stuff.

55:30Lewis Howes:It's almost like taking this could really help you discover what I should do with my life and what meaningful work I should be doing. or maybe this is why I'm feeling like I'm in a rut or avoiding things or I feel like I'm resistant to doing certain work that I'm supposed to do because it's not what you're aligned to do. And it's also, it seems like it can be an assessment that you give to potential people that you want to bring on your team and say, is this person going to be a good fit for this role?

55:55Jonathan Fields:You know, it's interesting because I've been asked a lot. We've started doing a fair amount of work with this body of work in organizations in the context of leadership and engagement and team dynamics. And I've been asked, like, is this a hiring tool? Like, should we use this to hire people? My answer is actually no. Like, I don't think this or really any of the other mainstream assessments that are on the market for organizations right now are really well used that way. My take is it's actually a great tool to look at the people you have, who you love, who are a good culture fit, and figure out, okay, so how do we navigate what they're doing?

56:32Jonathan Fields:How do we give them a set of tools and some insights that will help them really understand how to contribute to their role, to their work, to the organization, to their lives in a way which is going to be most nourishing for them? And then within the context of the organization, potentially say, okay, so how can we support that? Does it mean that you're doing this type of work? Are you job crafting or re-optimizing, re-imagining what you're doing in a way that goes beyond the job description that you were first brought in to do? But maybe it's actually going to make you not just happier, but more fulfilled, a stronger sense of meaning, and allow you to access that sense of potential that you know is there.

57:11Jonathan Fields:So one person who I know I've spoken with who runs two different companies has described it to me as it's been a really powerful way to remove friction within teams, within individuals' experience of work and organizations. It's just like the wheels are greased. Everything just works easier. There's less tension. There's less friction. People are showing up doing more of what actually makes them come alive. Right, right.

57:37Lewis Howes:So it's not necessarily a hiring tool, but more of an optimization. of team.

57:42Jonathan Fields:I think so.

57:43Lewis Howes:Make sure you're aligned to what you're supposed to be doing. Right.

57:46Jonathan Fields:From an organizational standpoint, yes. And then just from an individual standpoint where it's like, you said, how do we help human beings flourish? The more that you understand what is that impulse that makes you come alive and you can show up and do it, the better off you are as an individual and the more you're going to contribute to society and show up as your best, which at this moment in time, we really need more than ever. Absolutely. What's the link to the assessment? You can just find it at sparkatype.com.

58:14Lewis Howes:Sparkatype. Yeah, e. Sparketype.com. Yeah. It's free. People can take this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:20Jonathan Fields:And that was sort of like one of my commitments is I wanted to make the core tool that we created initially in no small part to test and validate the idea and now just to be available publicly as a tool. I feel like that needs to be accessible. so rather than a lot of sort of corporate style things right now where they're behind some sort of a gate I feel like at this point this tool just should be available for everyone especially at this moment in time. Absolutely.

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59:27Lewis Howes:This fall, L.L. Bean is celebrating the moments people look forward to all year. The first school drop-off, the first sweater weather day, and the first chilly evening around the fire pit. For over 100 years, L.L. Bean has been part of these traditions. Crunching leaves in Maine-made bean boots, cheering from the sidelines in scotch plaid flannel, and walking the dog in a rugged field coat. So grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. L.L. Bean, be an outsider. What about, what are the best ways you've learned how to maximize and multiply our time to being more effective, more efficient?

1:00:12Jonathan Fields:Mm, yeah.

1:00:13Lewis Howes:And our hobbies, our passions, our work,

1:00:16Jonathan Fields:like, are there some strategies you have? So this is not going to be a super granular strategy, but I'm always, I'm kind of like a meta-thinker. you know like a little bit like our mutual friend tim ferris in that way like i'm always really zooming out and saying like what's the system at play here and how do we where's the lever i'm always in search of levers yes right um and to me um being able to discern what actually matters is the ultimate optimizer you know because you can optimize all the different there's all sorts of tools and apps and platforms that you could use or strategies that you can use to optimize what you're doing every day to make it more efficient and quicker.

1:00:59Jonathan Fields:And those will make differences. But the bigger issue is, what should I just not be doing at all? It should be eliminating. Right. What do I actually need to pull out of the system? What is the thing where it's taking 40 % of my time, but it's only contributing 2 % to whatever outcome that I genuinely care about in my life in the work you know or whatever's being measured yeah and i think when we start to ask that question then we gain the ability to understand what really matters and what to focus on rather than just looking at like all the things that we do on a regular basis and say how do we optimize all of these like what's the technology zoom the lens out and like optimize your discernment engine and understanding what truly matters what is the big lever in whatever metric is being measured and in the way that I want to feel.

1:01:50Lewis Howes:Yeah. Eliminating tasks that aren't meaningful is the biggest way to multiply your time.

1:01:56Jonathan Fields:Right. I've seen you do that over the years. Yeah. You know, like you have a team, like there are things that you're really good at and you'd love to do. Right. And there are other people on your team where that doesn't mean things don't need to get done. Right. But it doesn't necessarily mean like you should be the one doing them and then optimizing to do them better. Yeah.

1:02:11Lewis Howes:I was telling Matt this even last week, Matt on my team, I was like, what can I do to like eliminate more and more things and just focus on the thing that I'm really good at and how do I double down on those things to multiply what we're creating, impact, income, all that stuff, and to just feel more fulfilled in my work as well. So he was like, well, we don't need to do these two meetings every week. We can just do an email debrief for you and save an hour there. We don't need to be doing this with you. You should be focusing on the other things to get you more ready, more focused for the interviews, booking guests, being out there networking now that we can be out in the world, all that stuff, and not being in meetings all day.

1:02:50Lewis Howes:For me.

1:02:50Jonathan Fields:Yeah.

1:02:51Lewis Howes:Which is like more about organization and everything. And I'm like, that stresses me out. You know, the essentialist stresses me out.

1:02:56Jonathan Fields:But that's what we're talking about, right? So rather than Matt saying, well, Lewis, let's take a whiteboard and let's map out everything that you're doing and figure out like what's the technology, what are the platforms, how can we do this more efficiently? He was like, no, no, no, no. Let's just talk about what you shouldn't be doing at all. Yeah. You know, because that's the biggest optimizer.

1:03:16Lewis Howes:And I think the test for people is like when they start to eliminate things and they see like they have more space in their calendar, they tend to fill it with some other busy work somehow. So I'm going to direct email or social media. I'm going to be distracting myself. But it's like really scheduling the things that you need to be doing, in my opinion, and making sure that my time is scheduled for free time. Like I try to schedule in like nothing. I'm just going to goof around or have idea time as opposed to just checking social media or email. 100%. And eliminating all that stuff the most that you can.

1:03:49Lewis Howes:So that's what I'm trying to do with my time.

1:03:51Jonathan Fields:Yeah. Like if you look at my calendar right now, like I keep a digital calendar. And I have certain critical things in different colors. But then there's also a block that you see all over my calendar with the letters KF in it. That just means keep free. Keep free.

1:04:05Lewis Howes:Keep free.

1:04:05Jonathan Fields:For whatever. Maybe you're going to do a meeting. Maybe you do a call.

1:04:07Lewis Howes:Maybe you relax.

1:04:08Jonathan Fields:Maybe you're in nature. Exactly. and I'm like literally unscheduled. Like I'm hanging out here, you know, and I've been in LA and Santa Monica for a little bit now. And I'm realizing at a certain point that I'm three blocks from the beach. I'm a water kid. I grew up on the water. Water is the place where I touch stone. It's where I like, I breathe. Everything exhales in me. And I'm realizing I'm like three days into like a 10 day window here and I haven't seen the water yet. And I'm like, I have the ability to walk three blocks. right there's i can completely rearrange my schedule because this actually matters to me this nourishes me it makes me feel good i'm literally adjacent to this thing that gives me like a sense of life and i'm i'm just literally filling in busy work that's stopping me from doing so i immediately reorganize what i was doing and now i end every day i just literally go down i walk along like the ocean i don't even go in it and then i go and then i just sit and like while the sun is dropping behind the mountain, you know, like north of Santa Monica, I meditate.

1:05:10Lewis Howes:It's beautiful.

1:05:10Jonathan Fields:And it's like, it's completely transformed me being here because I realize that matters to me. Absolutely. Are you going to move out here, you think? Yeah.

1:05:19Lewis Howes:Be by the ocean, man. Santa Monica's calling your name or like Newport Beach or Manhattan Beach or something. Yeah. Sparked, discover your unique imprint for work that makes you come alive. Make sure you guys get the copy of this. take the Spark E-Type test. Yeah. And if you happen to drop the E from the URL, we own them as well, too. Yeah, yeah, still show up. Sparketype.com. A lot of good stuff in here that'll explain all the different Sparketypes and give you kind of like application on how to implement certain things, how to remove certain things for each Sparketype. So we've shared four of the 10 here, but there's six more in here.

1:06:01Lewis Howes:So make sure you guys check this out and get it for your friends. It's really like a self-awareness tool, right? It is. And the more self-aware that we can become about how we feel, how we think, our behaviors, our actions, the better we can perform in our life, in all areas of our life. I'm all about self-awareness and just learning more and taking in everything as feedback and information. So this is a tool that will give you feedback. Again, take the free test or the assessment. Get the book. What else do we need to know about this?

1:06:32Jonathan Fields:I think what we need to know right now is that we are in this unique moment in our history like as a culture, as a world, but also just personally where a lot of us have a window that's opened up that says the world has been turned upside down. Everybody is revisiting their reason for being. They're revisiting their lives, their relationships, their work, their physical and mental well-being. and there's this like window right now where there is a level of understanding and forbearance for change that has been opened because everybody's in it together. It's been normalized on a way that it's never been normalized in our history, in our living history right now.

1:07:17Jonathan Fields:That window's gonna close. Window's gonna close. It may be a year from now, maybe 18 months from now, it may be six months from now and once it does, you will very likely find the process of trying to reimagine and going deeper and then potentially making changes potentially a lot less supported um or just a lot less comfortable for you and i would just invite folks whether it's a spark type stuff whether it's your relationships whatever it is whatever domain of your life you're like examining right now to not let the opportunity the possibility, the magic of this moment, go away. Don't let the window close without at least re-examining some of the assumptions that got you here.

1:08:00Lewis Howes:Yeah. I'm liking this, man. I'm liking this a lot. A couple of final questions for you. Yep. Before I ask those questions, is there a specific link for the book website?

1:08:15Jonathan Fields:Everything is just at sparkotype.com.

1:08:17Lewis Howes:Sparkotype.com, the book. Yep. Good Life Project. Make sure you download the podcast. And obviously the book is just all over, you know, all this stuff. Everywhere, yeah, everywhere. Sparktype.com. Okay, cool. And you're going to be getting back on YouTube soon. So Jonathan will have more videos finally.

1:08:33Jonathan Fields:We are reanimating the thing that started, like, Good Life Project all the way back in 2012. 2012. Nine years ago? Yeah.

1:08:41Lewis Howes:Gosh, man. I know. It's amazing. You led the way for video, like, high-quality video production for years. Yeah, we were. You inspired me.

1:08:49Jonathan Fields:We were all in. And I just fell in love with audio. Yeah, yeah. It just worked for me. And now I'm feeling the call to do something cool back on video. Yeah, yeah.

1:09:00Lewis Howes:It's a combination of both. Maybe it's not all video. It's part audio, part video. For sure. So make sure you subscribe to Jonathan over on YouTube as well. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, everywhere for the Good Life Project. A couple of final questions for you. This is called, I don't know if I asked you those last time, but it's called The Three Truths. so hypothetical scenario it's your last day on earth many years away you've accomplished all your dreams you've put the word meaningful work out into the world you've made your unique imprint has come alive fully you've expressed it but for whatever reason it's your last day and you've got to take all of your meaningful work with you or it's got to go somewhere else and no one has access to your information anymore all your videos content this interview books gone eliminated unfortunately but you've learned a lot of lessons and you get to share three lessons with the world three final things that you would share to be of service to the world what would be those three

1:09:56Jonathan Fields:truths for you so you would think i'd talk about this and i would talk about work and and that is for sure my deep fascination and professional devotion but when you frame that question my mind says meaningful to whom and to me the immediate answer my intuitive answer is to my daughter what would matter to her and the three things that come to mind are all related which is be love do love and open to love you know be a presence of loving kindness in your life to yourself be loving and kind to yourself but also just Just be a presence of loving kindness to other people. Even if you don't do anything, just be that presence.

1:10:43Jonathan Fields:Let it radiate from you. Do love. Do the verb of love. Make your decisions based on whether it will allow you to move into the world, acting from that place and expanding that sense of love. And then the third one, open to love. A lot of people have a lot of trouble receiving love and kindness. You know, and I struggle with it, you know. We've known each other for a long time. Like, you and I are, like, I will tell you, Lewis, I love you, you know, and you'll tell that to me and we're good with that. But I'm not good with that with everyone else, you know. But as a, literally as a practice for that, the signal line, like the automatic line on every email that I send where it's just my default is with a whole lot of love and gratitude.

1:11:34Jonathan Fields:even if it's like to, you know, somebody who's a CEO and it's like a pitch or something like that. Right, right, right. You know, because I want to be that. I want to do it. That's good. And I want to remind myself to continually open to it. Oh, that's good, man.

1:11:48Lewis Howes:Be, do, be open to love. I love that. Before I ask the final question, I would acknowledge you, Jonathan, for being an incredible friend for many years. 12 years, I think now? 13? 2008? Yeah, something like that. I think it's 2008. Go back. Fall of 2008, I believe. Maybe it was 2009. I can't remember. But I acknowledge you for showing up in many important moments of my life, for, again, helping me facilitate an important conversation on my podcast about sexual abuse. And that experience that we facilitated just impacted so many men and women who were listening and helping them heal. So I acknowledge you for being an incredible friend, showing up, being just a wise spiritual guide for me over the years, and very grateful for you and acknowledge you for the gifts you constantly bring to the world, this book included, and all that you're trying to help people with the awareness about themselves.

1:12:43Lewis Howes:So I appreciate you and acknowledge you for your incredible gift, my friend. Thank you. Yeah, of course.

1:12:48Jonathan Fields:Before you ask your final question, can I acknowledge you? Sure. Because I'm going to put you on the spot to be open to receive your love because I think you've been in the public eye a lot. People look at you and they see what you've, quote, built. They see this stunning engine of impact. They see the conversations you facilitate. They see, I know you as a person. I know you as a human being. I know you as a friend. I know your essence. And I have for a lot of years. And I've seen behind the scenes, I've seen you struggle. I've seen you go through a lot of things. I've seen you make decisions from profound integrity.

1:13:21Jonathan Fields:And not so much, just like we all have. We all go in all different directions. And then own them. And I've seen, you have this deep devotion. to self-examination and growth and to constantly going back to checking in with your heart and saying, is this right? Is this right? And is this coming from love? Is it coming from service? And I want to acknowledge you for that because I think people see what you've created professionally from the outside in, but being your friend and seeing your devotion to your own growth, to your own expansion of your heart, it's been beautiful. Appreciate it, bro. Thank you, man.

1:14:02Jonathan Fields:Appreciate that.

1:14:03Lewis Howes:I receive. I'm open to love. Thank you. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

1:14:12Jonathan Fields:Greatness is the ability to close the gap between your felt and expressed potential. What I mean by that is I feel like we all walk through life feeling like we're capable of more. maybe it's more love more relationships more achievement more impact more work outcomes whatever it may be i think a lot of us we walk through life having this feeling like there's something in there there's a potential there's like a hidden reservoir we can't exactly identify what it is but we know it's there and we have no idea how to unlock it and to me greatness is it's not a state we arrive at. It's a path. And it is the ability to close that gap between felt and expressed potential.

1:15:06Jonathan Fields:My man. How does it feel? Appreciate you, brother. Thank you. Love you too, brother.

1:15:10Lewis Howes:My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people. Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you and I can't wait to see you in the next episode. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links.

1:15:50Lewis Howes:And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

1:16:34Lewis Howes:What's up, sports fans? I'm Rachel Demita, here to tell you about my show, Courtside Club. If you love hoops and hot takes, then you're in the right place. Want to hear about Caitlin Clark's unstoppable rise in the WNBA, how stars like Wemby and Luka Doncic are dominating the NBA, or maybe you just want the tea on this week's most viral sports moments. Don't worry, we'll keep you updated on all of it. So grab your popcorn and come hang with us. Courtside. You can listen to Courtside Club wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's me, your gutters.

1:17:07Jonathan Fields:Everything is totally fine. There's just a lot of debris up here and I've been managing it mostly on my own. I just thought you could find someone on Angie to clean me up. I could really use it. Your gutters have waited long enough. Find a pro at Angie.com.