Create True Belonging & Heal The World w/ Brené Brown EP 1420

0:00My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, or if you feel exhausted, or if you feel exhausted. results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life, 10 years ago at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life, and the book I'm glad I have today for myself.

0:50Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well over there also. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave, and it just doesn't work like that. Vulnerability is, it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it's the brave thing to do. Here's a thing that has changed everything for me. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.

1:32And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

1:48Welcome to today's special episode. Over the last 13 1 ,500 plus episodes. There have been so many impactful interviews that I've been lucky enough to have, and I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful. And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past, and I'm excited for the value it's going to bring you today as well. So I hope you enjoy today's episode.

2:13The one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. That's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade, by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders, who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don't think it is what we think it is.

2:54I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because I still feel lonely and alone and on the outside of things on a really regular basis. Really? I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, a 15-city tour, millions of fans around the world, and you still feel alone. Yeah, I can feel really lonely. Why? And it's really hard because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted. Yes. Super private. And so I love that connection between me and audience, but it can also be hard on me.

3:35And also, I'm talking about things that no one... It's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes. And we laugh and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself above all else. And so I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself. And sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so I think that's hard. I think I do feel I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap.

4:19Like I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me believing what I believe in and doing it really well.

4:41But there's not really a blueprint sometimes. We're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. We're all trying to figure it out. I don't get to copy anybody. and so it's hard yeah it's still hard but here's a thing that has changed everything for me i belong to me so even when i feel alone and i wonder like who's my crew and who are my people um i belong to me for sure for the first time in my life maybe yeah and i think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in yeah you know i remember being in the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever.

5:21So I was the youngest. And I remember just wanting to fit in, just like you did on that team. I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered, like I was a cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it's like, I didn't want to not say anything. I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong. So if I did stand up against them, that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear was being alone. Oh, yeah. Because that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone.

5:55The problem is there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? and changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Because if we fit in because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself for other people. And that's not sustainable. Yeah, you start to lose yourself. You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said.

6:38And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are. How do we find out who we are? That's the life's work, right? That's freaking hard. Do you know who you are? Yeah, I do. Who are you? In what way? If someone just said, who are you, Brene, what would you say? Brene Brown.

7:05mom partner researcher storyteller texan

7:13i don't know i ask them how much time they have because you know the thing is that we want to when we ask people who they are and we want to know we'd like those really easy files to put them in but i'm a complicated person are you yeah and so i think i know who i am what makes too complicated i don't know i'm complicated but i'm complex um you're interesting i hope so some days yeah some days no very interesting i think what makes me complex is i think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people so you know like i speak in public i love doing that but i'm incredibly introverted um i'm kind of a traditionalist around things My kids say yes, ma 'am, no, ma 'am.

7:59But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it. Sure, sure. Yeah. So I think I'm unapologetically earnest. Like I believe in the goodness of people. But I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. Yeah. And so I think I understand people. I think I have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. So I think there's just a lot of push and pull. And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined. I think that's... Do you? I was going to say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well.

8:41They were like, you're going to be this jock in college. You're going to be like this alcoholic. You're going to be in the frats. All my siblings said this to me. And I was like, no, I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings,$100 each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. because I was like, I want to go against everything you think I'm going to be. Yeah. I joined the School Musical because they were like, you're just going to do sports. I sang, I played guitar, I salsa dance. I was like, I'm going to do everything different than what people would expect of a tall white man, right?

9:08That's awesome. I was like, I want to be different. Yeah. And I think in that process, I was like trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what was fun for me as opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think. You can lose yourself in the fitting in and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in. It's true. Trying to go against it all too. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard. I mean, it's this thing that it's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou that we're never free until we belong nowhere.

9:43We belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all, which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And she says the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself. and the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment I no longer belong anywhere and that is hard yeah I mean that's a hard practice that's an everyday practice wow yeah because I can I can be whoever you want me to be like that you're like a chameleon you said oh I can be totally like a chameleon like sometimes it's really funny because like I always because I travel so much I have all these miles I always sit in business class and I'm normally the only woman in business class.

10:42Every now and then there's one other maybe, which is a conversation we should be having too. But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. I can talk about whatever that person like. And it's so funny because we'll talk about sports usually first or football, or we'll talk about politics and he'll I'll say, what do you do? And I'll say, study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh, well, I'm going to play some Angry Birds, you know, and write that moment. Like, I can just, and it's not that I know everything about everything. It's just. So you're saying most men don't want to chime in and learn more about that?

11:20No, that's usually, if I want to go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher. What do you do? You're like, okay. Right, right. But I think I can be anything. Yeah, you're adaptable. I'm adaptable. And adaptable is great because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable. Of course. But then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself. Yeah. When would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone?

11:55High school. Just the whole journey? Yeah, it just sucked. It does suck. And, you know, my daughter just graduated from high school, and she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience. And it was so healing to watch. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president and, you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter. You belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home.

12:48Does that make sense? Because they feel safe coming back. No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to. And I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. and fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader or you were on the drill team, and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club.

13:22You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things. The newspaper. Oh, for sure. Yeah, photographer, the yearbook. But those things did not have a lot of value. Really? Not, no. Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile? No, it's just cool was the number one value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular. Yeah. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know. I found a place to be cool. And that just goes bad fast. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?

14:03Oh, yeah. We've talked about all of it. You have? Yeah. You've let it go. You've processed it all. Oh, yeah. Because they read my books as I write them. And they're like, this is exactly what every parent wants. A child who grows up to be a shame researcher. Right. But no, that's the miracle of my parents. Like my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know, which is it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like they keep growing and exploring and learn, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up.

14:37Really? No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like our family motto was literally lock and load. Like get ready, you know, family trips. You're in the car for five hours. It's all six of us. You really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway. We're not pulling over. Like, suck it up. Hold it. Like, we were tough. We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say, like, I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball. You know, like, yeah. Like, we were tough. And so, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability. We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done.

15:14Yeah. And so however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16. Was he able to process that or no? No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball. My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. but she was the most amazing person in the world. But everyone knew she was an alcoholic. So my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at her house growing up because it was the 50s and she was divorced.

15:54And so my mom became the head of the drill team and the valedictorian. And so however hard it was for me growing up having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. And they did what they knew how to do. and they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have, I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did, as opposed to my parents who lean in and say, tell me more about that.

16:35I have a funny story. We hear a funny story about my dad. Yeah, it's great. So we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so choice, my husband's a pediatrician. So like we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, you have two choices. Like Lewis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water. I'm going to have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice. Right.

17:04Right. And so one night I was talking to Ellen and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio. And I was like, Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed. She's like, mm-mm. And I said, Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV or I'm going to get it up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up and turn off the TV, you're going to lose privileges to watch it tomorrow. And that's your choice. Yeah, that's your choice. And I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me and he's like, What are you raising, a hostage negotiator?

17:35I was like, dad. And he's like, seriously, Brene? We had four of y 'all. We didn't have time for that. So the next day I come home, I'm visiting friends in San Antonio, and he's watching Ellen. And he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio. And he's sweating. He's like, Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up, or I'm going to have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice. So I was like, wow, you're so close. You're getting there. But you're getting there. You're getting there. My parents are amazing in that way that like they're learning and changing.

18:06So I think it's harder when parents say, I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies. No change. Take it or leave it. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker. Wow. And I think we see that a lot. Yeah, we do. I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware? because I think it starts with being aware of what they know and what they don't know and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. I think once you've had these habits for so long, I guess how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at?

18:53I believe this with my whole heart. I believe that 99.9 % of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have. Yeah. I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. people defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield.

19:29A great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers in the hundreds, if not thousands of fathers I've interviewed that said, I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable. I put him down. I made fun of him. I hit him every time he was vulnerable. And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission to not have been – I'm not perfect. I've never not been a researcher and a parent.

20:10My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy. You're right. And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is there's only two kind of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it are kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets is to raise a kid who will ask for help. Yeah, I never asked for help. Yeah. I was always suffering inside. Yeah, right. And I always felt shameful, guilty. And I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports or outside of sports because that's all I knew. I remember being picked last on a team once when it was a co-ed sport.

20:43We were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there was two captains, two guys. And they were picking one at a time, right? Oh, God, brutal. They pick all the guys. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to be the last guy chosen. Yeah. But then they go and pick all the girls. And then I'm going to pick my name. I'm just by default the last picker's team. And so as a boy trying to fit in in third, fourth grade, it was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last at any sport. I'll do whatever it takes. I'm going to be a machine.

21:17I'm going to train for six hours a night. I'm going to take no prisoners mentality. I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just throwing the ball, just diving everywhere. I was like, never again. Did you ever get picked last again? Never got picked last again. Right. But, and it helped me achieve, you know, it was all state in multiple sports. It was all American in two sports. I broke world records. I played professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things. But it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I achieved them.

21:49Or any time we lose, it was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had on a sport, it was like my life was at stake. And I felt like I was worthless. Because if I didn't win, that meant no one was going to accept me or I wasn't good enough or I was going to be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out of my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate. And I'm still learning. I'm still imperfect every day, but it's like I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you're allowed to.

22:28Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy growing up for me, and so I think it's very hard for me, and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone and feel like they belong in an isolated world if they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone when we're not introverted or we want to be around other people? How can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable. Yeah. Because we were talking before about how, you know, most men that I know played sports with would never watch The Power of Vulnerability, TED Talk, or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability.

23:12Yeah. You know, they would say that's soft, that's weak. Yeah. You know, I don't watch that stuff, I don't read that stuff. Really, that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion. And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier that I think 50 % of the readers of Daring Greatly are men. And the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you why. Wise men. I can flip it for you on a dime. Yeah. So it used to take me when men would say, this is how the call would go. Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk.

23:47We thought it was great. Are you available? And I'd say, sure, what do you want me to talk about? And they'd say, anything but vulnerability and shame. And I would say, why? So what do you want me to talk about if I don't talk about vulnerability? And they'd say, courage. And then I'd say, okay. Then I would try to spend like a half an hour explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage. Because all men want to be brave. Isn't vulnerability courage? Vulnerability is courage. So I only have to ask. Isn't vulnerability power? Yes. I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing.