Dating Experts: "She's Definitely NOT In Love With You!" EXPOSING the Habits That END Relationships | Matthew Hussey & Sadia Khan

37:40You'd think by the time they get to 50 or 60 it would go down but you'll meet men that even when they're 60s they still see that as a form of love and connection so they don't really have the same enjoyment of a long conversation, a long walk but a quick you know five minutes of that it means something to them so i found for men that tends to be their deal breaker a lot of the time what would you say would you say that's true or is it not in your because you guys are men i don't mean to tell you i mean i don't i think if i wasn't having sex in a lot you know after 10 years i don't think i'd be fully satisfied you know i'd feel like i'd feel like that's a need that i would still want so in your mind it doesn't need it i don't need every day but it's a need that i would want a healthy relationship with so you don't like how has some women they think oh by the time i turn 50 or 60 i can retire for i mean didn't robert de niro just have a kid at 80 or something he doesn't retire i don't think it would i mean unless like it didn't function anymore and it like the desire went away somehow because you know yes this is what really kind of jaded me with this idea i think when i had a client who sadly suffered from um you know some erectile dysfunction because of some illness nothing major and um even in those moments he would still use a pump to get it because it was and i just remember thinking the tenacity of some men is that it's something they want and it doesn't naturally go down and it's not going to go down so i can understand why it's their root of appreciation of it seems to be and i see other times where they men have been really heavily manipulated by women and women have just taken everything and got away with murder with them and i always ask what was the sexual behavior be like and they were like it was fantastic and i said that's probably the rule of sex kept them in it yeah allowed to deal with the behavior created an atm out of him sometimes or create something out of it so that's why i in my personal experience that's what i've seen but i don't mean to speak for all men or anything so is that is that what would you think what would you think for for women i guess yeah that would be the biggest deal breaker that it would be hard to let go of and be resentful of around sex and not getting their needs met around having children or the lack of having children around religion what do you see i think firstly there's what you're saying about guys i think there's actually an awful lot of that the other way around too i think there's a lot of you know women who find that you know they're with a partner that's no longer interested in sex and or with them interested in sex maybe they're interested in sex possibly but not possibly or in general, you know, it's just, you know, they find that that hasn't gone away for them, but they're no longer in a relationship where, you know, sex is really present in any meaningful way and that affects them.

40:22So I think that's not just that way around, but I, you know, I think the big one is for so many women is children. You know, if the devastation it can cause when, you know, someone wants to have a child, they have a dream of having a family, and they find themselves with someone who's saying they're not sure or that they don't want that, you know, that causes a profound kind of grief in people long term. Do you think a woman that has fantasized or dreamed about having kids for most of their life, and maybe that was in her attention when they got in the relationship with the guy, but at some point the guy said, you know what, I don't want kids anymore do you think that woman could ever truly let go of resentment and just say i'm going to let go of my needs just because i want to make this person happy or make this relationship work even though it was a deal breaker but now i can let it go i mean perhaps some do and and i'm not suggesting everyone wants kids but for those that do um i think it's a very very i don't know how easily that goes away for people i mean i i've i i can't speak on behalf of women here but what i can do is say what i've seen which is the the heartbreak the true grief that i have seen in women who i've worked with for many years who always hoped that someone would change their mind always hoped that you know or a guy was responsible for continuously sort of stringing them along with the hope that you know he was met one day and then he ends up you know breaking up with her anyway and then those years for making that happen have perhaps passed and that family hasn't happened and also the guy's no longer there oh sad is um or worst case scenario he has children with somebody else after which happens too oh man yeah it's like was that not good enough sadly i heard someone quote christopher hitchens um saying in life you have to choose your regrets um and i think that that's in as apt for what we're talking about here is you you have to you know it's an impossible situation to be in you know i'm in love with this person i want to be with this person and they fundamentally don't want what is essential to my being i you know if If I want kids and that feels like it's one of the, you know, truest expressions of my dreams and what I want to do in life and they don't want that, it's an impossible situation for someone to be in.

42:59But I do think that, you know, which will I regret more is an important frame. You're always going to have regrets in life. I mean, there isn't a life without regret. I don't the the British poet David White said talking about regret that this idea we have in this culture today of no regrets is uh nonsense good luck he says well you know you if you someone says to him I have no regrets he says where have you been yeah you know what life have you been living no regrets you have no no values really then but I do find women as they age they can be more accommodating to a man that doesn't want children really if she gets to her late 30s early 40s she kind of is like well actually that might work in line with my body maybe i miss my timing yeah so it's kind of like she kind of aligns herself with somebody who doesn't want children at that age and that then that can work but in her prime years to make such a fundamental decision is quite difficult for her i think that the the hard part is precisely in that age you're talking about because if you're for so many people in their late 30s early 40s that that is that time where it's crunch time yeah it's no longer you know you know i'm kind of looking at it going well i can have another four-year relationship and still find time it's that time where someone has to say you know what am i doing here and i i you know speaking of we've talked about having hard conversations the hardest conversation we have to have is with ourselves you know the the the The reason I wrote in my book an entire chapter on called The Question of Having a Child is because I wanted to, albeit clumsily perhaps, encourage people to have a conversation with themselves that they maybe weren't having.

44:42What happens if I get to 38 years old and I haven't met someone yet? What do I do there? What's the plan B that becomes the new plan A at that point? Right. You know, is it that I'm going to do this on my own? Is it that I've freeze my eggs? Is it that, you know, what happens if I get to 41 and, you know, having a child on my own didn't work? What's plan C? You know, these things matter because what they do is they give us a sense of relief. Yes. Knowing that I've had those difficult conversations with myself. What I always hope people will do is not sleepwalk into their biggest regrets by constantly deferring the hard conversation to another time.

45:36You know, if someone is if someone's not got honest with themselves about what they really want and then, you know, 39 years old, they meet a 24 year old who just happens to be really hot and they're having a great time and it feels good and it feels like it's something. And yesterday I had nothing. It's a very tempting thing if you haven't been honest with yourself about what you really want to go. ah just let's see where this goes but if you have a closing window for at making that dream happen of yours then and and you haven't been honest with yourself about that you could sleepwalk into a relationship where you have completely misaligned goals and then find five years later that you're looking back going what did i do why did i give my time why did i give my energy to that person because it felt good in the moment but I wasn't clear about my path so we have to there's always in life there's what feels good and then there's our path and the two aren't always aligned so we better be really clear in our love lives what what's my path here what's really important to me have I had that conversation not with anyone else have I had it with myself because if I haven't, I don't know what to say no to.

46:55And what I will inevitably end up saying yes to is something that feels good right now. And we all know, everyone's been, I've been there where you go into a relationship, it feels good and you go, oh, this is just a bit of fun. And a year later, you're like, I'm still here. This was supposed to be a bit of fun. This wasn't supposed to be a year long relationship. And you don't line up on values. I'm getting my heart broken or they're getting their heart broken. or like and that's fine at a certain stage of life when we're just whatever i don't i don't have any real intentionality about what i'm doing that's okay but at a certain point we have to start getting really honest about what our path is and then we have to get good at following our path not just our so hard to let go of those temptations when you're young and you just want to have fun and connect your book when you're in love or when you when you feel that that chemistry of that connection really anytime your book love life talks a lot about how to kind of set those standards for yourself there's another book that me and martha went through early on called eight dates which i recommend which is really great it's kind of like figuring out what your deal breakers are it's like okay here's a deal breaker it goes over the biggest topics and you have like i don't know it seems like a hundred questions on each deal breaker and uh it's not fun you know it's uncomfortable conversations but i highly recommend that book as well eight dates because it just lets you see are we aligned and if you could separate the chemical emotions that you have and the fun and the connection and see do our deal breakers line up or not that will help you see if it's the right thing to move forward my my hope is that people get uh can find a way to whittle down that list to the things that are most important really important because i think that have some flexibility yeah you're not going to align on all of the topics yeah but you know we sometimes look at these differences on the surface and we don't realize that actually what's underpinning those are some similar values yeah but what we do on the surface are very very different yeah um and it's you know again to to to quote hitchens he said you know it's more important what you uh it's more important how you think than what you think and i think it's important to say am i disqualifying someone because of this surface level thing that i see like ah that's not for me and actually how they think yeah and how they arrive at these things and the way they kind of process things or think about life is actually very similar to you you've just landed in different spots right with how you you know manifest that in the world and sometimes that can really work you know i'm a i'm a i'm a meat eater and audrey's a vegetarian you know she could have said that's a deal breaker i don't want someone who but actually we both love animals we're both obsessed when we see an animal we're both like deeply compassionate people we both have the same values around that and we've landed in different spaces on it for now who knows maybe once will change at some point i don't know but you know there's that's a how we think is actually very similar we just landed in different places on that and i think that's true in a lot of areas of life where we disqualify people yeah i would agree even with money and stuff like that you both might spend differently but the way you like to make it and save it might be similar so yeah There's an underlying thought process that needs to be taken into account.

50:13We're talking about why relationships fail. In the previous episode we did, we talked a little bit about cheating, but I'm curious, in this day and age, I'm curious who you guys think cheats more. We've heard that both men and women cheat, but just women are better at hiding it. Yeah. And that men get caught easier, and women are just good at hiding it. Is that true? I mean, that's kind of the thing. it's like you know both men and women not everyone but men and women do cheat but women are less at getting caught i guess i don't know they're smarter about it and they have more opportunities than the average man really yeah i mean the average woman will have at least somebody will sleep with her like you know she she doesn't have to have that much going for she doesn't have to have a great job and she doesn't have to have you know a lot of charm and wit she can jump on an app and it's a be easier for her.

51:04Whereas for the average man, it's not as easy. So I think the opportunity is higher. Interesting. Is that why? And guys, I guess, are hitting on women more than women are hitting on men. Yeah. So the temptation is a bit different there as well. What's the stats right now? Do we know if men are cheating more than women these days? Well, the stats I would always argue that women don't admit that they're cheating as much. You know, there's always a pride to men when they cheat and stuff like that. They're always a bit more open about it. I know some of my closest friends that have cheated. Even to me, well, I've been in the process, they'll pretend they haven't cheated.

51:36So there's a part of them that denies cheating. Is that men or women? Women. Yeah, yeah, women. But then later they'll do two of them. But I've been in the process and like, no, no, but at that time we weren't really together, or at that time we weren't together. But there was a simultaneous connection. But what I would say is, I don't know who cheats more or who cheats less, but I think when women cheat, it's more definitive, as in that it's harder for them to come backwards from cheating. I tend to, and I don't know if you guys would agree, I tend to give the advice to men that when your woman cheats on you, it's very difficult to forgive her.

52:10I wouldn't recommend it. I highly don't recommend it. Men shouldn't forgive her? Men shouldn't forgive. With women, I think there's room for flexibility depending on the causes. This is going to get a lot of comments. Why should men not forgive the women they're with who cheat on them? Because for a woman to cheat on you, it's not that she's fallen in love with another man. She's just definitely not in love with you. Ooh, man, that's gonna hurt. And so for you to take her back is just providing her free accommodation until she meets a man she wants to fall in love with. And I would, like a lot of men think, oh, no, women are so emotionally attached to sex.

52:45No, no, no. Some women can literally have an affair with a local PT who doesn't care about her and she doesn't really care about him. It's what the driving force is not the love for the guy that she's cheating on. It's a lack of love and respect for the man she's cheating on. Interesting. Yeah, and so when you forgive her and retry with the relationship, she's already decided she doesn't really want to be with you, but she will stay in this until she finds someone that will love her. So if a man cheats on a woman that he's in a committed relationship with, is it also saying he doesn't respect and love her?

53:18I think it's not so much a matter of love isn't so much the component, it's more of a lack of respect. It's more of a lack of respect and a lack of fear of losing the relationship or whatever it is I mean, I can't speak for men, but a lot of them can say that they can compartmentalize They can still really want their relationship to work. They can still really, this is all illusionary But this is what they say. They want their relationship to work. They love their wife very deeply They want all of that But they are just outsourcing the sex because it might be lacking or it's not the way they like it or they're outsourcing a feeling for in my experience with women when they cheat um it's not so much that there's something they're craving outside it's just there's something in the house that they're just not happy with and as a result they it's they will cheat and i've been in situations where i've had clients come on the phone or a video call and i've switched on my screen and i've looked at the couple and i say i i can tell she's cheating no without saying a word they haven't said a word to me and i remember the last couple i did this with and i looked and i thought she's having an affair but i'm not going to say it publicly after a comment and i said what what brings you here and she started with uh we have a great relationship we're very good everything is good we just don't love each other anymore and i said can you be honest with me you're having an affair and she said well recently that and it transpired that she has i'm gonna fan i said i can tell by your lack of connection to your husband your lack of love you're not you're most people when they come on a therapy call he was all suited and booted ready for this call like save my marriage she was literally just like oh god do we have to do this like the disconnect that was there was there was no coming back from him there was from her energy from her energy it looked like she was held like by the throat to be there and that's such a common theme when a woman cheats it seems to be like i'm not actually in love with you anymore but i'll make it work because the guy like i haven't gotten many alternatives so what i say to men is firstly not only is she not in love The second thing is it ignites something in a man that's not good for him And the main thing it ignites is a feeling of inadequacy, sexual inadequacy and masculinity But it can meet a physical abuse when it comes to a man That anger and rage, some men will use that anger and rage to just leave and go work on themselves Other men will use that anger and rage to control and to abuse Women do this too, I'm not saying when women find a man who's cheating they don't get abusive it's just the damage that can come from a man being domestically violent is something that is they're both wrong but it's something that i wouldn't risk so that's i'm gonna have i'm gonna have matthew reply to this in a second but do you think uh a relationship can truly repair and heal after someone has cheated or do you think not when a woman cheats when a woman peeps you think it's a lot harder or you just don't think it's possible not possible really yeah i was i would honestly they say, from what I see, every time a man forgives a woman cheating, she eventually leaves him for forgiving her.

56:16Oh, really? Yeah. Why is that? It's just because of lack of self-respect? Is it a lack of... She understands now that there is no boundaries to this relationship. Most women are under the impression that a man would leave. Men tend to think that women can be a bit softer and emotional and they can kind of convince them. Most women tend to assume men will leave because that's what they tell each other, oh, I would never put up with it. I would never put up with it. So when she learns he's willing to accept the unacceptable, she now realizes unacceptable behavior will run with him. And therefore, there is no motivator to prevent it happening again.

56:46So I've always seen, again, I have to preface this, I see worst case scenarios, but I've always seen it become a repeat offender. I'm not saying men don't do it the same way, but I'm just saying in my experience, I've seen women, you're simply waiting for her to leave you now. So maybe, I mean, maybe you could stay in a relationship, but it's just not going to be a healthy, committed relationship. There might be more breakdowns. I think one thing men underestimate is how loyal we are to the person we believe gives us the most sexual satisfaction. Is this women? Yeah. Say that again? Women are incredibly loyal to the man that gives us the most sexual satisfaction.

57:21Really? Over like financial security or safety or providing status? A lot of the time they can be. I'm not saying all of the time, but a lot of the time they can be. I know women who will wait for a man who's in jail simply because, not because he's the best, but she's all he knows. Since she's been with him, she hasn't touched another human being. So that's all she knows. And women that are like that, they're not as curious. That's all he knows. But when she's got that curiosity and she opens herself up to being pleased by other people, it becomes difficult to revert back to monogamy. Really?

57:54Yeah, it becomes very difficult. Oh, I can be pleased by someone else as well, or maybe it's better or different. It can be man or woman. It can be man or woman. When you open that door up for her to unlock that part of her to somebody else, it becomes difficult to reverse. So I'm saying this from a female perspective. I would love to hear from a male perspective what it's like when it comes to cheating. But there is a lack of respect that comes afterwards, and there's a willingness to try again. And it just means she rarely stops because she's now checked out of the relationship. And do you think if a man cheats within a relationship that he could stop cheating in that relationship?

58:28It's difficult again. It's difficult. Yeah, I still think it's a difficult thing. I would say it's difficult. I don't know how definite it is because it would have to come to a real understanding he loses his family. But for women, it's just the potential of domestic violence that comes with it as well. I just think it's better to just let her go rather than hold her and then have so much rage and either rage towards her or rage towards yourself. Either way, it's not good. And I know that sounds too definitive and too negative. But in the original, when I first started my practice, I used to take a lot of my inspiration from Esther Proel where she's like, you can rebuild, have those conversations.

59:05What I noticed is the rebuilding is just buying time. For the inevitable. For the inevitable. Maybe it lasts another four, eight years. Maybe 50 years ago when there weren't dating apps. it might kind of undo itself in this day and age when there's so many alternatives combined with almost what they see as permission it means delaying the divorce i'm as you i'm curious about your thoughts on cheating and feel free to disagree is it you know i guess why do with the women that you work with and i know women cheat that come to your retreats or they're trying to like heal and fix their broken heart and all these different things repair from being cheated on all these different things why do you think women cheat or the ones have communicated why they cheated what's the main reason women cheat in a long-term relationship and can a relationship repair after cheating occurs you've heard from a lot of women yeah I don't know where to start here I I...

1:00:07struggle immensely with the kind of the talk about women cheat because they don't respect their man which I think even that is a you know so many people cheat because they they are craving an emotional connection that they're not getting inside their relationship I mean how many women are with men that are never present you know who don't show up for them who you know are a workaholic you know obsessed with their business obsessed with something else and then all of a sudden they find that they develop an emotional connection with someone on the outside that maybe started innocently enough but you know that emotional connection turned into something more I don't it's a very male picture in some ways you're painting of women this idea that the they are essentially just you know they don't it comes from a place of essentially disrespect and contempt for their man and it's just a bit of sex on the side um maybe there's some of those but I it feels like We're missing a giant archetype there Which is the woman who is Craving connection Emotional connection Yeah emotional connection And that's the precursor To a physical Connection So would you say the fault lies in the Man not meeting her needs Or in the cheetah herself I don't know That I think of it that well I think I think she's obviously transgressing in terms of the boundaries of the relationship and it's a that's a that's wrong and that's you know on either side to not have that conversation that hey i'm not getting my needs met can we talk about this or even hey i'm having feelings for someone i need to talk about this because i don't want it to go to a place i can't come back from so that of course that's wrong um but i'm i'm more just suggesting that i think that the scope of why people cheat is a lot wider than you know i don't i don't respect my husband and so i'm just going to go and do this i also i don't i struggle with this idea that women are once they've cheated they just can't look at their man the same way again and that they've just now fundamentally lost something Do you think they can look at the man with love and respect and admiration?

1:02:42I think they can look at him the same way, but not if he forgives her That's actually what I think is the problem It's also really interesting about that, Sardia It's a kind of... It's a real kind of almost prejudice against women And their capacity for kindness It was almost the same as saying that women are just inherently more cruel than men But I'm saying that with the preface that they've already cheated Which is a lack of kindness I hear you, I get the scenario It's not women, it's cheating women Men are capable of kindness, compassion And future connection with someone that forgives them But women are not capable of such kindness I would argue it's not that they're not capable of such kindness But we're talking about a market of women Who have already demonstrated a lack of kindness Through the cheating So in that subgroup, absolutely they're lacking kindness I hear you.

1:03:38We're talking just about people who have cheated. But to kind of other women in that way, where it's like a woman is incapable of having the ability to go, oh, my God, I have really. Made a mistake or something. I have hurt the person that I love, who loves me. I've hurt this person that I've made a vow to that I'm in this relationship with who didn't deserve it. And that has nothing to do with them. That's on me. And, you know, if this person is kind enough, if they have the space in their heart to forgive me, I'm going to honor that. The idea that that's impossible to me suggests that you feel like women are somehow missing a compassion gene.

1:04:28It's not that they're missing a compassion gene. they're looking for protectiveness in a way that men don't look for in women. I think that's incredibly reductive. I find that really reductive, the idea that what women are, the only thing women really care about is, and what does protect mean exactly? A protectiveness is like a biological, but we take it in an evolutionary sense. A protectiveness would be, from an alpha perspective, in an evolutionary terms, it would be a man that protects his kin from cacaudry. It protects his children being born from somebody else, essentially, paternal uncertainty.

1:05:01Now, from a primitive perspective, we look for men who not only can gather resources, but can also prevent paternal uncertainty. Now, when he's missing that fundamental, like he's not bothered about paternal uncertainty. It's not that weird. He is bothered. Let's say he's broken hearted. He's like, oh, my God, I'm crushed. You're saying she would have had respect for him had he shown up at the apartment as she was about to have sex with the guy and beat him up. No. But given that she already did on the side and she came back, the fact that he missed the moment and he's now crushed and hurt, that's him not protecting her?

1:05:37Here's the thing. Masculinity is not about availability and consistency. Masculinity is about knowing when to walk away as well from a female perspective. There are endless women who have men that message, double text, triple text. What puts them off in that moment is not his kindness and compassion. It's his unwillingness to walk away when he's being disrespected. But you are framing forgiveness as the antithesis of masculinity. But you are framing forgiveness as acceptance. I think forgive me if I was to do that, but accept me is a different experience. Forgiveness is saying this relationship means more to me than my pride or my ego.

1:06:19I love you. I want to make this work. and I'm going to be a big enough man to make this work in spite of this. And that makes him the bigger person. It doesn't make him emasculate. You're framing forgiveness as he's emasculated himself by forgiving her and she can never get over that moment of him emasculating himself. I believe that very, very strongly. And the reason being is that the relationship should mean loads to you, but part of you should understand for her to do this, we don't see the relationship in the same light your inability to understand the importance of reciprocity is what makes you less masculine it's not a case of forgive me all day every day but for me to step out on you means that this relationship means something different in your eyes than it does in my eyes but you're saying it's different if it's a man i wouldn't say it's totally different i think the disrespect is there but i think you said you said if it's a woman she and she forgives him uh or if it's a woman and she forgives him it's fine and it can all work but if a man i said it's difficult i said it's very difficult but i do think men can compartmentalize sex in a way women can't the other similarly when we were talking about male cheats you were very quick to say that the cheat is a problem but when females cheat it's an emotional need she was outsourcing which seemed to be i didn't say she wasn't wrong i said it was wrong only when i probed that only when i probed that your original i have no i have no issue saying anyone who cheats is in the wrong but what i was refuting was the idea that she's only cheating because she doesn't respect him yeah that she could be cheating because of an emotional connection that she's not finding in the relationship i'm not suggesting there aren't also logical reasons why men cheat but it's wrong on either side it is wrong on either side but the previous conversation was very much his fault of the cheater in this case there was a compassion to her reasoning now there wasn't a compassion to a man cheating because he wants sex like you know if we're going to show compassion it has to be on both ends the woman i don't think i was showing compassion to the woman what i was saying was your assertion that there's only one reason women cheat and it's because they don't have respect for their man yeah was uh a really singular notion but i would still argue that because even if she's lacking emotional connection you're going to lose respect for person that you don't have a connection with but you're tied to there's going to be some because look there's some women that lack emotional connection but they don't progress to cheating there's some women that lack financial stability they don't go to cheating i think the lacking is one component but it's not the only but i guess what i'm saying is why is it different for men the only i would i personally don't think there's much coming back from when men cheat either but in my personal experience sometimes what i notice is men go into two categories right some men will when a woman forgives them they'll think right I've got a freedom pass I can do this forever I'm gonna do this forever other men will think I've done it I've tried it I've tried all types of it's out of it's usually sexual so it's out of my system I heard myself I heard my wife and I could lose my family my kids yeah I could there's too much loose and then they can repair with women it's just not oh and also the other thing is he doesn't start to think less of her for forgiving him in my experience men don't think less of a woman for forgiving him.

1:09:35They might think, they might go and disrespect and do it again, but they still think, oh, she's really loyal. And they kind of like the forgiveness. They kind of appreciate the forgiveness. With a forgiveness, when you give to a woman, it just makes her feel like I have a man that doesn't respect himself more. He likes the relationship more than he likes himself. I really, I really struggle with that. I disagree. I, you know. Have you worked with men that have been cheated on? Well, yeah. And have they been cheated on just the one time or do they end up getting cheated on again and again by the same person?

1:10:07Well, I can't say I've worked with someone over six months or a year and tracked whether they've been cheated on multiple times. But the idea being put forward is that women don't have shame around having cheated. You know, the primary emotion for most people when they cheat, unless they're incredibly unhealthy, is shame. It's terrible shame. It's guilt that overwhelms them, men or women. What if someone doesn't have that? Well, I would argue that that is someone who maybe fits more the mold you're talking about. But I would say that the underlying trait to cheat is a lack of guilt and a lack of shame.

1:10:50I think to get there involves an element of lack of shame and guilt. I don't know that that's true. There's so many people who cheat are guilt ridden, shame ridden, hate themselves afterwards, regret it for years. Many people go to therapy to try to overcome the shame and the guilt they feel from having cheated on someone. Would you say those are more the people that do it one time by accident? I'm talking prolonged affairs can't be that much shame and guilt. Prolonged affairs, I wouldn't say has that much. Otherwise you'd stop. Well, there are affairs that go on too long and there are affairs that people stop and then look back on and go, how could I have done that?

1:11:27I mean, mistakes fall into both categories, both the act of passion and loss of judgment in the moment. Sometimes it's a loss of judgment for four months. But what I guess what I'm saying is the idea that I just want to I really don't want to perpetuate this idea because it really inflames men in a way that I think is bad for relations between men and women. This idea that women are sort of especially bad and underhanded and that they'll go and cheat. And once they've cheated, to add insult to injury, if he forgives her, they'll go, yuck, you forgave me. I have no respect for you now. That is perpetuating an idea that actually makes a lot of men incredibly angry at women for very unjust reasons.

1:12:16Because the truth is women are just as capable of feeling, and in many cases more so, feeling tremendous shame and guilt after they've cheated. That is the headline. The headline isn't if he forgives me, I am going to keep screwing him over, over and over again. The headline is I am guilt ridden and if he's forgiven me, I still struggle with the guilt and it's going to take me a long time to get over it. But then how do you explain perpetual cheaters, which happens many, many times? On both sides. Yeah, but how do you explain that? I'm not making a difference between men and women here. You are.

1:12:50I know, but here's what I'm saying, is that there isn't really a huge difference in terms of the propensity to cheat again. The difference is how the people respond to it. One is slightly more dangerous than the other. The response, when it comes to the anger and hate men feel to themselves, because, look, fundamentally everybody, they might say differently, fundamentally if you ask somebody who's been cheated on, if they had a magic pill, one would make them forgive their partner and the other one would give them the willingness to walk away, which pill would they take? Most people wish they had the ability to walk away because they don't want to live with those thoughts and flashbacks.

1:13:25I genuinely believe if you gave everybody those options, men or women, they would take the pill that says, I have the willingness to walk away and understand that this is not healthy for me, rather than a pill that makes me forgive. So when you have to automatically go down the path you don't truly want to be in, and then you're faced with the flashbacks, and then you're faced with the kind of worry and paranoia and stuff combined with increased physical strength it's not a safe environment to put yourselves in and i also have that's a different point than the one yeah i know that's not the physical point is a very different yeah but that aside but the lack of respect is you don't look i wish this wasn't the truth i'm not saying this from a prejudice perspective i'm saying this from a factual perspective i wish it wasn't the truth but the reality is we know look we've all looked at pickup artists yeah we've all looked at pickup artists in the past the fundamental kind of theme pickup artists tell men when you want to pick up women is what to act like there's plenty of fish in the sea that is a fundamental trait that gets women into bed with you you act like there's plenty of fish in the seat when you become that guy that's too needy that's too kind of um persistent you lose her sexual interest.

1:14:38Now, if that works on a short-term fling, tell me how on a long-term level, when you know your wife has slept with another man and had sex with another man, every position you've done with her, she's done it with another man and you show forgiveness on that end. Is that not just an extreme version of the guy that double texts? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's completely different. Why is that? Because you're discounting what a relationship is. A relationship is two people who have built something together you're reducing the the relationship to you know his ability to demonstrate he can go and get other people and that it's an you're again you're still framing forgiveness which in the right context not in every context but in the right context is an extraordinary brave and powerful act or weak as an all weak In some contexts.

1:15:34Yeah, all week. But you're framing all forgiveness as an act of desperation. Because here's the thing with forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't mean continuation. If you were my husband and you hit me, I can forgive you in five minutes. I'm a very non-grudged kind of person, but I would not stay married to you. It's as simple as that. But you said everyone, if they could have the choice, would take the pill to leave. And that's just not true. Well, then if you don't take that... By the way, in many cases, if someone cheats on you, leaving is easier. Leaving is the easier way out. Staying and healing and doing the work with someone to get over it is the harder path.

1:16:11People don't take the easy pill of just leaving a lot of the time. And not just because they're desperate or because they're too weak. Sometimes they take the other road because they are brave and because they actually believe in the relationship and they love the person. But that love is not reciprocal. is the key component because if it was reciprocal nobody would be doing something that would fundamentally destroy it so the point so just so i'm clear your belief is that on the male or the female side or maybe you're just talking about women again if someone cheats they do not love the person and they are not capable of ever loving the person again their version of love involves an incredible amount of pain to the person they love.

1:16:56Now, if you co-sign that behavior, you are not demonstrating self-compassion. You're demonstrating codependency. Yes, you can forgive, and it's a difficult route, and you can go, but what you're ignoring is cheating is a symptom, not the cause of the pain. There's a deeper issue of respect in the relationship that's been lost. There's a deeper issue of transparency in the relationship that's been lost. There's a deeper issue of trust that's been lost. Let me ask you this. So cheating is a symptom. what is your message to all yeah before you ask this because it's important before you before you ask it though what i'm hearing sadia say is there's when you create a relationship that's healthy there's standards that you're supposed to have right and hopefully you communicate those but some of those are uncommunicated we're not supposed to cheat if we're in a committed relationship and especially reciprocated like right yeah it should be reciprocated it should be reciprocated we're going to trust each other we're going to be loyal we're not going to cheat on each other yeah that's a committed relationship unless you've communicated otherwise and has some other type of relationship that's not cheating in my eyes exactly you're you know so I know your book is all about you know setting standards at a certain level so let's say the standards are met where men and women say we're not going to do this and then it happens once that someone breaks a standard which maybe someone's emotionally angry at someone and they broke a standard there maybe they did something else behind their back that it wasn't sexual cheating we're talking about sexual cheating now and what would what would you think then if someone did break that standard if it was a man that cheated on the woman should the woman stay if the man's says I'm really sorry it's never gonna happen again or he just says I'm just not getting my needs met you know either way would she be brave for forgiving him and very kind for forgiving him she might be yeah I mean That's an intensely personal decision that every single person has to make.

1:18:47No one can make that on behalf of another person. But would she be brave and she'd be good to forgive him and she'd be a kind person to forgive him? Well, no, that depends where it's coming from. But then why is your answer different for men and women? It's not different. My answer is the same for men and women. So what is it? What was strange to me is that it was for you. It was a man was capable of cheating and then moving on with the continuing with the relationship, having been forgiven and creating a healthy relationship on the back of that. I did say that's not, I said it's difficult. Okay, but you were very definitive about saying 100 % of the time with women, they are incapable of such grace that they cannot do it.

1:19:31In fact, for them, the only motivator is how manly and masculine the person is. And apparently that's defined by him rejecting her after she slept with someone else. It's not about rejecting her. I wonder what you would say to the huge number of people who will be watching this who have had infidelity in their relationship and have gone on to have beautiful relationships after that. I would say that in my personal experience, the reason I'm so adamant with this message, whenever I've done videos where I talk about this, the endless amount of comments and messages I get saying this is 100 % true.

1:20:08I forgave my wife. She did it again and again. And I found out my children weren't mine. she did it again the risk of men forgiving cheating is bigger than the risk of women's forgiving cheating if i cheat on my husband biologically the kids now there are some fundamental differences between men and women that are simply biological you have to explain that to me again because if a man cheats yeah and he leaves her on her own with kids that doesn't represent a giant yeah it does it does a huge issue in your mind the issue is bigger if she cheats and he has children that he's paying for i know this cases of men going to jail there's a financial there's a financial obligation but that's a worse one than the woman who's going to spend her life raising children on her own when a guy leaves but here's the thing the law but here's the thing here that okay that the financial the the financial risk is bigger than the risk to a woman of bringing up a family on her own if a guy leaves the law helps when you if i if If my husband doesn't pay child support, the law will help me.

1:21:12But you'll still be raising kids on your own. I will be. But that's a lesser risk. You ask financially. So I'll stay on the finances. No, I'm saying is the finance a lesser risk to you than a woman having to bring up a family on her own for the rest of her life? But here's the thing. Bringing up the children alone will happen, men or women cheating, or just a breakdown of relationship. But here's the key difference. If I have a child with somebody and he chooses not to pay child support, I can get the law involved. But if I pretend the child's his and he's not paying child support, he can end up in jail for a child that's not even his.

1:21:44So the risks involved are big. So if a woman cheats, what I'm hearing you say, if a woman cheats and doesn't tell the husband he's with, the man he's with, that she's in a relationship, and has a child that's not the husband's child. Imagine the emotional consequences of that. Imagine that. So women, look, we always know our child is ours. One thing we can go through life is with that certainty that even if we're left alone raising this child This is my child. I wore this child and yes, it's difficult But it's in my child The emotional consequences of raising children and then figuring out they're not yours or going to jail for not paying child support And the child's not even yours.

1:22:22That's aside. That's still kind of a secondary thing My main question is why when a man cheats on a woman we are so quick to blame the person and say he was outsourcing his needs and yourself included were like the cheater is wrong or he might be not. No, no, no, no, no. Hang on, hang on. Don't put words in my mouth. I said men and women are wrong if they cheat. What I don't do is draw a strange difference between men and women in this department, which is what you seem to do with women. Then outwardly say it's incredibly brave and incredibly compassionate. On either side. When women forgive men for cheating.

1:22:55No, on either side, I think if someone's coming from a place of love and strength not from a place of having zero boundaries not from a place of not respecting themselves if they decide that they believe the person and that they understand that person well enough to understand why that act happened and where it came from and they want to be big enough because it requires an extremely big person on the side of a man or a woman to be able to do that If they want to do that, I think that's an extraordinary act and it's an extraordinary ability to sidestep ego and do something out of love. I can't believe I've spent so much of this episode defending, you know, forgiving cheating, because it's not we look at any other piece of content I've ever done.

1:23:42and I've never even talked about this before but it just it it really feels to me I I think what you're saying is a real dismissal of so many people will be watching this going I've had infidelity in my relationship and we're 10 years past that and we have an extraordinary relationship and how dare you invalidate my entire relationship what about the millions of people who have watched it and thought to themselves if I had just known this I wouldn't have carried on with that woman started a family with her and now she lives in my home with another man and i pay child support what about those people that's an eventuality but any woman can tell any number of stories that are equivalent i know but it's an equal amount of people on both ends we can't just cater to one end of the argument who's doing that um but if i think i think what's again i don't is we keep getting mixed up here i am saying it's the same on either side okay you seem to be saying that this making this point about women and how they are just driven by whether they respect the man or not they are incapable of which i think is a real insult to women actually they are incapable but not women cheaters it's a different so women cheaters aren't women anymore we're female cheaters female cheaters is different to women i don't draw a distinction i'm talking about female cheaters you're saying female cheaters are fundamentally different from male cheaters because a female cheater will look at a guy and say if you forgive me there goes my respect for you and i am saying that is massively insulting to women's ability cheating women's ability cheating women's ability to well cheating women are still women yeah i know yeah but if they're saying it's a subgroup because if i said if i'm saying a blanket statement of women don't appreciate forgiveness then I wouldn't be in a relationship I required forgiveness from my partner so many times the way our relationship the way you speak about people who cheat is like they're the antichrist and they'll never be able to come back from it but earlier you said that I was too soft on people that cheat no no I said I said they're wrong and we should call it wrong that's what I said last time we should call it wrong I'm not not calling it wrong on the women's side I'm saying it's wrong on all sides I'm just I don't I this idea that you know give a give a woman an inch and she'll take a mile like is a is actually perpetuating this myth about women that actually sows division between men and women it has men thinking that women who cheat particularly bad who cheat are particularly bad but men who cheat aren't particularly i haven't said that i haven't said that but here's what i think there is a there is a there is a rhetoric yeah i have to say there is a rhetoric if anyone is listening between the lines of what you're saying that really does is a kind of insidious notion about women and how they're sort of especially underhanded or especially calculated that apparently men are not they're sort of bumbling you know they'll cheat but afterwards i say whatever when it comes to women yeah don't forgive a woman because a woman is incapable of respecting it's not a case of don't forgive a woman i'm telling you from a female perspective i don't think many women would agree with you i think look here's the thing cheating women have come to me and told me this that they cheat again and again i get this experience from cheaters but i don't think that's all cheating women i don't think that's all women who cheat i don't i i would you might not agree with that but me personally in my personal experience i wouldn't make this up i haven't made this up but what i i keep i would love to believe that once you forgive a woman for cheating she is so apologetic and she never does it again men or women reality here's what i would say about forgiving yes you might think it's a martyrdom act me personally i don't think that but you might think it's a signal of martyrdom for me a signal of strength strength in a loving relationship me i in order for me to be in a loving relationship and from what i see love has to be reciprocal and it has to be based on the idea of respecting each other outside in their absence your definition of love is i love you so i'm going to make it work my definition of love is my love on you is predicated on the fact that you respect me in my absence.

1:27:54Without that reciprocity, we don't actually have love. We have one person attached to another person who is not reciprocating that love. Again, you're saying someone who cheats can't love the other person. I've refuted that idea. I'm not saying love, but the respect isn't there, regardless of that. But what I would say is, outside of the respect, what I'm trying to say to you is that when you forgive a cheater, instead of going into it with the rose-tinted glasses that, oh, this is so forgiving and so loving. My actual advice would be is if you're going to forgive a cheater, go in with the knowledge that they probably will do it again.

1:28:30They might not, but they probably will because people don't lie. Their behavior doesn't lie. But that's a different point than the one I've been with you. I want to pause for a second because I want people to chime in in the comments. And if you've ever been cheated on and you've been able to make it work, I would love to hear in the comments the process of how you made it work because I think for other people watching or listening to see your comments of like, yes, it worked or if you've ever been cheated on and you tried to make it work and it didn't, share that as well. And also if you're a man or woman, share if you've been cheated on and if you believe you can respect or love or both the person again after they've cheated on you or if you've cheated on someone, uh do you and they've forgiven you do you feel like you can respect and love them maybe it's been a stronger bond afterwards or maybe you have less of respect i'm curious to hear your thoughts and feedback on that what about in you personally do you think for me personally if my husband was to forgive me cheating a part of me would want better for him i would want i love him so much that my my thought would be you deserve a woman who respects you in your absence i deserve a man respects me in my absence so yes i'm not saying that you can't recover but you don't go in blind and assume love is the cure you assume reality testing is the cure there's kind of a commentary on yourself yeah but it's also what i've seen in my practice no but what i'm saying is you when you if you say you cheated on your husband and then he took you back and you'd say god you deserve better yeah it's really a commentary not on his masculinity but what you think of yourself but it's also on his masculinity because i would want him to realize his worth it has nothing to do with his masculinity it has to do with whether he believes the relationship is worth saving which has no which is no different to a woman forgiving a man and this is my point it's not i'm not trying to make a point here about whether people who cheat once will cheat again i haven't actually commented on that point we can talk about that that's a different point the the masculinity What I'm saying is this strange distinction that you've created around women, I think is a really, a really divisive one for men and women.

1:30:43And I don't think men need another reason to look at women and go, they're especially conniving or they're especially bad or just, you know, be vulnerable in front of a woman once or be, you know, or for men to associate forgiveness with weakness. But here's why I would say that is an essential component, because most men that you find that are jaded by women, that are these red pill men, are men who were repeatedly cheated on. And they didn't understand the importance of walking away when they. I would argue the men that are jaded. Because they're saying that I did forgive. Exactly. Is that what you're saying?

1:31:14That's what I'm saying. Because when you look at the men that are in these comments and that are furious or the ones that really hate women, they didn't get there by beautiful women that were submissive and loyal to them. They got there because they had one cheating woman and they gave her forgiveness and forgiveness and forgiveness. The message to those red pill men is what you've experienced is no different to what gets experienced on the other side. So your enemy is not women. Your enemy is the kinds of people who continuously disrespect you and betray you. And the red pill community, the target is on women.

1:31:45And you're helping them. Let me ask you on both sides before we go on there. if someone cheats once and then they have a conversation man or woman and they have a conversation they they found out the partner found out whether they told them about it or they found out through some other means someone told them or they found a message whatever and they say you know what i made a mistake i'm really sorry man or woman yeah um i want to try to make this work i love you i respect you but i faltered maybe my emotional needs aren't being met maybe you are gone all the time whatever it is whatever excuse there is no excuse but there's an explanation sometimes but there's some type of explanation hypothetical um and say the man or woman says you know what obviously this is not okay with me i'm going to take some time to process this and eventually they forgive them let's say this happens um maybe six months goes by a year a few years goodbye but then the same person cheats again let's just hypothetically say should you forgive again or is that the time when you should say you know what i love you i appreciate you i appreciate this relationship but i i have more respect for myself man or woman and this isn't worked for me you've crossed the boundary multiple times now we've communicated it we've tried to work on it it's not you're doing this should the person stay after being cheated on twice i'll let you start with that.

1:33:10I again to be clear I'm not even saying you should stay if you get cheated on a first time. At no point in this conversation am I saying. Isn't that a sign of bravery and forgiveness and compassion according to your earlier discussion? No I don't think I said that at all. I said in a relationship anyone has the right to decide either to leave because of their boundaries and it's been violated and I'm not interested in staying with someone who's betrayed me in this way or i believe that there is something really important here worth saving i happen to believe that this transgression is not going to occur again based on the conversations we've had it's going to take me a long time to heal and to work through this and you're going to have to be a massive part of helping me work through this but i am choosing to do that what i said is that for the person who comes from that place not that i'll never be okay if i'm on my own so I'm going to stay but when it's coming from that place that's a brave act but I also don't judge for one second anybody who says you cheated I'm out I don't you know this is I couldn't have been more clear on this so if someone cheats a second time then yeah with anything in life if someone on that scale is enacting multiple betrayals you have to say on what basis do I really think this isn't going to happen again?

1:34:36Right. I was convinced it wasn't going to happen again the first time. I'm curious about all the noble qualities that were assigned to the person who forgives in the first place. Let's say it's a man forgiving a woman. Some people. Yeah, let's say it's a man forgiving a woman and he had all those noble qualities of bravery. It's not a lack of masculinity. It's forgiveness. Why do those qualities disappear if she's doing it again? Why is it still not an act of bravery? Still not an act of nobility? Why is it still not a signal of how much the relationship means to them? Of course, with every, with, you know, as evidence mounts that this person doesn't mean what they say, when they say that they've done the work to make sure this never happens again, it becomes more and more of a fantasy.

1:35:19The idea that what you're saving is, you know, you both see the relationship the same way. You know, that illusion of they've changed, they've done the work has been massively eroded. And you might be able to, the first time around, you might be able to convince yourself and they might be able to convince you that there is something fundamentally different this time. But of course, every other time it happens, it starts to turn on us to say, well, there's a pattern here. And if I ignore a pattern, then I'm going to likely pay the consequence. For me, the reason why I was so strict the first time is because if they had six or one night stand, absolutely, I agree with your statement.

1:36:07But it doesn't matter if you had the affair once and then five years later. but if it was a one six month affair that means six months of continuously betraying it wasn't a one-off betrayal so that is a pattern by the time you figured it out by the time you find a partner cheating it's not their first day yeah you're saying if there's an affair yeah it's not just but generally speaking yeah the concept of cheating when the person cheats it's very unlikely you find out the first time there's been a pattern going on for a while that's why to me it doesn't make a difference if you forgive the first time or the third time behavior is going to continue because the first time you caught them wasn't the first time that they had sex but some people cheat once yeah on a one night thing on a one night stand or one one affair there are people that transgress in all of life cheating doesn't live in a special category of like everything else is like the cheating is just one other way we screw up in life right it doesn't live in a different category than everything else in life and people people do they make mistakes in life and there is this like at some with everything in life we have to have a relationship with it that says i am capable of making a mistake once and again i'm not defending cheating that's not what i'm here to do i'm just saying that in life we have to say that we're capable of making a mistake once otherwise we're all screwed you're i have to imagine there are mistakes you've made that you've made once and gone i'll never make that mistake again i certainly here's my key with forgiving forgiving cheating or forgiving any behavior expect it to happen again that's all i with forgiveness has to come a reprogramming of your scheme of this relationship it has to because you're being presented with evidence now it would be naive of me to go back into the relationship saying this person is incapable of doing that same behavior again the better thing for me to do is i totally forgive you but now i'm going to be aware that you have a capability i didn't know you before chances are you might do it again but my goal is now to forgive you hope that you don't but be prepared if you could do that naivety of just forgiveness and love conquers all doesn't actually exist in the real world what happens in the real world is reality conquers all yeah that's why i would say i think matthew is talking about you know if you're going to forgive and have these hard conversations after someone's been aware that someone's cheated and you're going to say listen do you really you're going to have to need to feel this person wants to be with you that they have some serious remorse that they say i made a horrible mistake you know and my i never want to do this again and i never want to hurt you again and i hurt you and i'm sorry i'm assuming this is what would need to happen by the way let's not let's be clear that cheating came that was a a response to something they were feeling and in order to be have any confidence that someone isn't going to do that to you again they need to show you that they're doing the deep work everything to rewire this response system so that whatever they were feeling whether it was you know unhappy bored horny whatever it was insecure that their response system to feeling those things will never ever again be that and that's not something that just happens because someone decides i'll never cheat again that happens because someone does therapy or because they rewire those patterns to make sure that this something is fundamentally shifted in the way that I approach my life, that that will never again be my response system.

1:39:37This is serious stuff. It's not just someone saying, I'll never do it again. No. It's having some, and by the way, the reason why it's so hard to heal from cheating is because it's so hard, aside from just the sheer betrayal that people feel, it's really hard to know whether someone has really done that work or not and to determine when you can be confident that they've really done that work. And you can't measure their attachment to the other person. How attached were they? And did they just stop because the other person didn't work out? So it's a very difficult. It's tricky. Yeah, it's a very difficult.

1:40:10I mean, I want to I want to ask a couple of questions before we wrap this up. But to kind of transition that you alluded to it. If you've been cheated on in a relationship, whether it's you're married or just a long term committed relationship and the relationship ends. Betrayal happened. The relationships end. Whether they ended it or you ended it because you got cheated on, whatever happens, it ends. How can, like you said, how can someone start to heal after they've been cheated on so that they can set themselves up for a healthy relationship the next time around? Like we said earlier, I think having those difficult conversations with your partner to understand what is their coping mechanisms when things go bad.

1:40:51Some people, when things start to go bad, their coping mechanism is to outsource love and affection from another person. That's just what they do. They have a backup plan. Other people their coping mechanism might be alcohol whatever it is or they might have discussions. It's figuring out what do people What do people do when things are tough? Now if they use human connection as a form of coping mechanism, this person is probably likely to cheat So you start to go into relationships with a bit more awareness of what causes it a bit more understanding of what can be the signs And it doesn't mean you like go in with a radar and just knock everybody off straight away but you go in with a transparency and open communication that this is what I've been through I never want to go through it again if you have these tendencies what can what can we do in our relationship to make sure neither of us feel the need to go to alternatives or you might decide both of us do have a need for alternatives how do we create an open conversation about that I understand in this day and age expecting no one to ever cheat in a million years is difficult I understand that but how do we manage whatever our boundaries are how do we speak about it and manage it in a way that neither of us is blindsided by the other's behavior.

1:41:55Okay. Matthew, how was it? Was the question how do you heal if you leave or how do you heal if you stay? How do you heal if the relationship ends and you're starting a different relationship with someone? You're single for a while. Before you get into the next relationship, I guess, how do you heal? Before you've met someone or once you've met someone? Before you get into the next relationship, how do you heal or how do you go through a healing process so that you can get into a new relationship without the, I guess, traumas of being cheated on before. I think I understand that that's, for some people, that really takes time.

1:42:33It's not an overnight process of just trusting again. It's that you have to grieve for the version of you that believed in this relationship and that came to this relationship in good faith that you know you had a mutual understanding of what was acceptable and that that was violated and that you were betrayed and that there's a you know this is where once again self-compassion comes in because it's you're grieving for that you that believed in that relationship and thought that it would last and thought that it would remain beautiful in all of those ways and that actually that part of you that believed all those things was in many ways the best part of you it wasn't the worst it wasn't the most foolish it wasn't the most desperate it wasn't it was the best part of you that believed that and and someone did something to betray that and and to really grieve for that part of you i was betrayed and i got so hurt in the process and i deserved so much better than that especially the way i was showing up in that relationship you know i think sometimes we we look at ourselves and how we were in a relationship and we think we were fools but actually we saw what we were capable of we saw how we could love and how doing our best or whatever how we could how we could show up for someone when we loved them yeah and that's and that's beautiful that that version of us was betrayed doesn't take away from how beautiful that version of us is and how beautiful that version of us will be for somebody else who has a different character or shows up differently in the relationship.

1:44:28But I think that's the beginning of healing that. Do you think someone who's been cheated on, if they don't process and grieve and heal and they jump into another relationship too quickly, they don't heal within that process do you think they're more likely to get cheated on again if they don't heal that in them i don't know if we're if we haven't grieved for that part of us and we haven't had that compassion for that part of us and really felt it then we might miss a connection that we can make with ourselves during a time like that when you've when you've been hurt like that it's like a beautiful time to make a connection with yourself that maybe you I feel like those wounds give us an opening to really like make friends with ourself and show up for ourselves and that builds a stronger connection and some people go into like self-hate though you know during that time like how could I be so stupid that's the blame yeah that's the blaming and but you're saying there's an opportunity for you to really reflect with yourself and to and to show up for yourself as a safe and loving force.

1:45:40And when we do that and we nurture ourselves through the process of healing, we'll find ourselves naturally next time around being more protective of ourselves because we go, God, it took me so much to take care of myself and to nurse myself through this pain that I'm going to be really conscious about who I allow into my life, right? Because I want to only, this person I've been protecting for the last six months or a year deserves goodness. And if you don't make that relationship, make that connection with yourself in that time, then you may not feel connected to yourself enough to protect yourself next time around.

1:46:22So now you might put yourself in the way of people that don't represent that goodness. Yes. And instead of seeing that I shouldn't put myself around a person like this, we simply go I just have to monitor them as much as possible because I need to make sure I'm hyper vigilant all the time and constantly checking whether they're hurting me like yeah the last person which isn't no because we want to be able to relax in a relationship creating more trauma for yourself yeah yeah I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this with the biggest uh reason why what do you think Lewis what do you think about forgiving cheating we didn't get your Well, before I share that, I'd love to hear people's thoughts on the biggest reason why they think relationships fail.

1:47:08You guys shared both of your thoughts on that and then also kind of your perspective on cheating. I asked you guys that in the comments already, but add to that, what was the biggest takeaway from this so far? For me, I just think it's really hard. I think you have to be such a person willing to think about consciousness in a different way. And you have to see something in the other person, if you've been cheated on, that believes, fully believes that they won't do it again. And so you have to say, okay, I'm willing to let go of this ego or this lack of self-respect that maybe I'm feeling or this betrayal that happened.

1:47:50I have to be willing to forgive or let go or transform my emotions and my hurt from this in some way and say, I believe in what they're saying in front of me, that they're fully remorseful and sorry that they. And they're going to show me a different level of respect every single day until I until I believe it fully. And that's going to take time from the other person. So I think that's the only way it can work. If someone has some type of consciousness that's like, wow, okay. And they can also, some people are going to like this. If they can also say, maybe I wasn't able to, maybe I wasn't showing up fully.

1:48:30You know, maybe I was gone too much. Or maybe I wasn't having the emotional conversations. Or maybe I wasn't present and looking at her eyes. Whatever it was. Yeah, there's a dynamic. Not saying it's okay that this happened. But how can I show up to make sure that, or what conversations do I need to have so that we're more in alignment you know maybe I've been lacking intimacy myself whatever it might be mm-hmm I'm not saying it's okay for the actions to happen but say well how can I show up differently and I don't know I think it's possible I think it's highly unlikely and it's hard to do I think it's hard to do for two people to say I really want this I'm gonna be conscious I'm gonna stick to new standards myself but I think those that do it probably have the most beautiful relationship yeah because they've been through a hard some of the hardest stuff and they've overcome it then they could create this like incredible bond of love trust respect especially if both of them feel like there was something they were doing wrong yes and they can fix that wrong and i think if if they could do that it's either like the one percent that can do that might have the best relationship ever but it's you need both parties to be equally invested yeah yeah i met people actually a couple weeks ago where this happened and they divorced and they took two years apart they barely saw each other they just dropped the kids off in the corner oh no you know drop off no contact oh no and they both started to heal two years later they remarried oh amazing so it's like they had time apart they hated each other then they got you know then they transformed and they both said oh I saw something in that person before and now we're gonna come back together and they're back together now and they feel stronger because of it now it doesn't mean there might be hurt and pain still but I think when two people go through pain...

1:50:11You have to risk love with somebody anyway. Exactly. So you can risk it with the person you're already with. Exactly. So I think it's highly unlikely unless both parties transform into new people. You have to both shed old identities and become new. That's the only way, I think. That's my thought. Let me know what you guys think in the comments below. You're equally an expert in this field. The expert through personal experience and through wisdom of pain. No, your wisdom as well. Yeah, of course. But I'm so grateful for both of you. We have Sadia Khan here, sadiapsychology.com and thesadiaspsychology on Instagram.

1:50:48You've got tons of content, videos, and you do one-on-one coaching as well. So people can check you out anywhere on social media or sadiapsychology.com as well. MatthewHussey.com, the3relationships.com for your newsletter. Love Life, the book, which just hit New York Times bestseller. People can follow you. tons of great youtube content tons of social media content as well you leave workshops for women all around the world you lead a lot of workshops for men uh women who've been heartbroken by men who screwed them over men who've been heartbroken by women who screwed them over different uh different perspectives from both i think this has been beautiful so i really appreciate i love hearing the alternative perspective and like i said i'm skewed because of my clientele tends to be men who are jaded so I have this perspective but it's interesting to hear the other perspectives so I really appreciate you challenging me with all of that.

1:51:44I'm curious what is the the biggest takeaway you heard from Matthew and what he was sharing that maybe is different from what you've had to say but just the biggest takeaway for you and I'm curious the biggest takeaway for you from what Sadia shared during this conversation. I think the importance of self-compassion in the sense that it's not always needed to be branded as a weakness I know that I have this very staunch and I think this will probably harden from the work I do but the idea that self-compassion is almost I almost used to equate it to self-pity which I don't see as a strong emotion but realizing that it's actually the driving force for behind self-change is what I've taken away from this so it's an important component to motivate you into becoming more accountable anyway yeah okay there you go I don't think that for me it's just a you know we said it before the the debate the lively debate that can happen in a positive way i think is you know it's i don't see enough of it yeah you know i i think that's a it's a lost art so the fact that you know a respectful debate for sure for sure and you're extremely gracious in the way that you you know come at debate so it's i like it i do it i do it anytime this wasn't meant to be a debate let's like go against each other i was more just curious of the perspectives just curious this is the first time we've done this but I'm excited for this I think you know I'm curious to see what you guys think at home whether you're listening or watching leave a comment below if you want to hear more what topics do you want to hear from both of them if they'll come back together we'll see and thank you guys both for being here.

1:53:16Thank you so much for having me thank you so much and I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you. Thank you guys. It's beautiful I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes.

1:53:53I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. You