Doctor Explains: Healing Your Gut Won't Work Until You Heal This

28:45Okay. More than anyone would expect. Okay. So like a nice medium sized avocado might have eight to 10 grams of fiber. That's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah. But it also has healthy fats. So fat is good for us. We just want it to be good fat. Yeah. Right. So we can get that from an avocado. Okay. All right. Number four, I would go with, let's go with chia seeds. um so chia seeds hot super high in fiber but they also have healthy fats because they have omega threes right and most of us omega-3 fats are what we call essential which means you have to get them from your diet and most of us are not getting enough okay so this is why everyone's taking fish oil supplements which is fine i don't have a problem with that but like you could also eat the food that is the native source of these of these fats and chia seeds are one of the ways among many.

29:35Okay. Right. To accomplish that goal. All right. All right. And last but not least, I'm going to go with kimchi. All right. So here's the deal. Um, fermented food is uniquely beneficial. Gosh, it's another thing I don't like, but okay. All of them. You don't like yogurt or kefir. I like yogurt, but what's the chem, what do you say it was? Kimchi. Kimchi. Nah. It's not for you. That's fine. So yogurt, I do. You got to find what you like. yeah yeah yeah you gotta find me like but like yogurt kefir greek yogurt is it's good super good okay that's good to know so it's a fermented food and the fermentation process it of course involves live bacteria so like i want the listeners to see this the way that i see it they just hear probiotic i get that but i see like a living ecosystem right there's like this community that's there a part of the food they've transformed the food and then you have your ecosystem inside of you and you're going to, you're going to introduce them.

30:33Interesting. And actually the, there's now several studies to suggest that by regularly consuming fermented food, they can actually like integrate themselves into your gut microbiome. Interesting. So that like actually last night I was at an event and someone, very nice woman came up to me and she says to me, how can I add more microbes back? My, my microbiome count is low. my diversity is low. And I told her that one of the ways that you can do this is by adding, increasing your fermented food intake. And we have clear research to show that out of Stanford. Oh, that's good. So if I do a little thing of yogurt every day, if I have an avocado and I've had, I have chia seeds in some almond milk for breakfast, is that a good thing?

31:24If I do three of the five, but I don't do berries and I don't do, um, well, you're rejecting the berries. I'm a bit insulted. Again, I'm like a palate of a seven-year-old. So I'm like, it's like, I don't know the texture, the taste. I don't know what it is about it. Dude. The, cause the thing is. Mulberries I like, but I don't know. Mulberries. Oh, you're very specific. Yeah. I used to have a mulberry tree in Ohio growing up. So I would like, I could find the right ones that weren't too juicy that were like, okay for me. Oh, that's interesting. And what about dried berries, dried mulberries, dried things?

31:54So those is good or no? Yeah. Like you like dried fruit in general. Yeah. Yeah. So there is still some retained nutritional value there for sure. Uh huh. But also they can, there's some things that also are enhanced. So for example, the very high in histamine. Uh huh. So if you start eating like dried out fruit, you might notice your nose gets congested and that can actually be the histamine content of your food. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, it's not, it's not like a horribly bad thing, but there are some people out there who have histamine issues that are not just a once in a while thing it's more of a chronic problem for them okay and so for them they have to be careful okay so yeah i mean i look if if i had my way i would i would figure out a way to get you to love adding berries to your yogurt right i have to get over it so my mind somehow it's a mental thing for me yeah what would be an additional one then we got beans berries we got avocados we got yogurts and what was the last one fermented food fermented foods yeah and so for me what would be one other if someone didn't like one of those things and there was an additional one i'm gonna try to throw you a wild pr make it easy for chia seeds was one of them yeah i think you're kind of digging the chia seeds i'm gonna play off of that i'm gonna go i'm gonna go with walnuts all right okay we can do that it's actually got an interesting like a walnut looks like a brain yes and then it's like it's high in omega threes it's got us playing a joke you know it's like come on it's ready right it's kind of cool i'm i'm down for all those i could do all those every day so in the book i i basically discuss that because here's an important point and i want everyone to hear this that um you can call diets different things right mediterranean pescatarian flexitarian vegetarian vegan and what i actually wrote in the book is it doesn't matter.

33:44It doesn't matter, which what you call it, what matters is the quality of your diet. So there's a lot of flexibility here. So the diet that you're going to eat is not the same as the one that I'm going to eat. But what I'm saying to you, Louis, is that if you focus on four main nutrients, you will have an anti-inflammatory diet that will support your gut microbiome and make your immune system strong and healthy. And so, and the four nutrients, and we found those in the six foods that we just discussed. okay what are those are fiber polyphenols healthy fats and fermented food and so if you focus on those four things fiber polyphenols polyphenols are the colors so like eat different colors i say eat the rainbow right eat the rainbow is the same thing as saying what i'm saying right now we're not talking about skittles don't eat the rainbow skills taste the rainbow no not that that was a taste just a taste yeah so yeah but like the healthy fats you know like you can throw extra virgin olive oil into the mix, right?

34:42If you're going to do oil, let it be that, let it be extra virgin olive oil. Okay. So if you do those four things, I mean, if you eat those four things on a daily basis and you, or you add more of those to your, your intake, you're doing a lot of good for your gut. A hundred percent. And, and, and, and the key from my perspective is that you should feel the difference. So it's not, this is not just like, Hey, I trust that guy. And so I'm going to do it. What I'm saying to you is take a chance. Yeah. Do it for a week. Take a chance. Try something different and then see how you feel. Interesting.

35:13And if your energy levels pick up and your focus is better and you notice that your exercise is improving and like there's different, different things for different people. Right. But like you're, you're going to experience the benefits and when you experience them, then it reinforces, oh my gosh, I'm onto something here. Yes. Then you want more. So those are the four pillars. Yeah. I call them the four workhorses because I have this mental image of like, imagine that you are, imagine that it's 1870, right? You and I are heading West. We're coming here. There's bald hair. Yeah. We're going to get rich.

35:49And so we got this wagon, right? But in order for us to get across the plains, you don't want just one horse. You don't want just two horses. At some point, you're going to have to climb a mountain. Climbing a mountain is like fighting a disease, right? Fighting that battle against this chronic illness. right? So you're going to climb that mountain. You want to have three or four workhorses powering you to your goal, right? Because one or two would not be enough. So I call them the four workhorses because in my mind, I have this image of that wagon that you're trying to power up the hill for the person who's sick.

36:23Whereas when you're healthy and you're feeling really well, I mean, you could say, Hey, I only want one or two horses, but that would be kind of stupid it because why wouldn't you have all four Clydesdales rocking and be a total beast? Exactly. Yeah. Go for eight and give me eight of them. You know, let's go. I'll have to come up with four more workhorses. Double it up. I'll have to go back to the drawing board there. Stress seems to be like one of the biggest things, one of the biggest killers for a lot of people. It just holds them back from accomplishing what they truly want. And I'm curious, does bad gut health make us more reactive and cause more stress for high performers or high achievers if so what's a science-backed way that we can start to calm our nervous system with food that you like okay so first of all stress 100 is connected to our gut microbiome like without a shadow of a doubt and basically what you've led us into is a conversation around the gut brain connection ah right so they are basically best friends this is by the way chapter eight of my new book.

37:27And I have to tell you, Louis, this is the chapter that would resonate with a person like you, but I think it's going to resonate with the readers the most too. Like this is literally the best chapter that I've ever written. So out of all my three books. Yeah. And cause there's a lot for us to unpack here. It's about the brain gut connection, the brain gut connection, which is the nerdy way of actually getting into the concept of mind-body, right? Because like the mind-body concepts, allopathic medicine has rejected that as being woo-woo, but there's absolutely 100 % clear physiology that explains how our stress, our emotions, our connections to other people, our life of spiritual purpose, and our traumas ultimately will impact our gut.

38:15And when they impact our gut, they will impact our immune system and create inflammation. Really? A hundred percent. So to, to lay this out, because it kind of is a two-way street. I mean, you asked me about the role of the gut in stress, and I'm kind of starting with the role of stress in gut health. Okay. You know, imagine that you are, uh, in traffic and you have a near miss, you almost got into an accident, you barely missed it. And like zing, like your eyeballs bug out, your heart rate's pumping, your blood pressure's up, right there's a certain feeling that you get imagine that you uh are about to go on stage and while you are very comfortable with this because you've done it many times um for many people that's like extremely anxiety inducing yes right and so so they get these this feeling of butterflies in the stomach right they might feel a little nausea they might actually start to feel like bloated and then cramps and then waves of cramps and then it's intense and that's crippling and folding them over, right?

39:11These are all manifestations of very clear physiology connecting the brain to our gut. So what's happening is that our environmental experience, basically our brain was hardwired to react quickly to things that are happening around us, right? That way we don't have to even process, we can just react. This is why you have a near miss in the car, instantly, boom, you get that feeling, right? You don't think about it. before you even process that you almost got into an accident. So that's your sympathetic nervous system. You know what's interesting when you say that? I used to, when I was in high school, before basketball games or football games, it's like I had to go to the bathroom almost like 10, 20 minutes before.

39:54You were nervous. I was like, even though I was doing well and I was a good athlete and things like that, and I was succeeding, it's almost like every time there was a game, I had to use the, and I was like almost running late. it was like warm-ups are happening and i gotta go run to the bathroom yep and how is that connected to the brain and the gut when you feel like oh i gotta go to the bathroom well so this is your sympathetic nervous system okay so this was this is what was happening with you and it's parallel it's the same as when i was in medical school and you take you know basically 200 people that were at the top of their class in college you put them all into one class and half of them are are less than average.

40:34Wow. Right. At Georgetown. Right. So there was a lot of stress. Sure. So there was a line out the bathroom door. Really? A hundred percent, a hundred percent. You had to wait in line to get a stall, man. So what is the connection between stress and needing to go to the bathroom? Yeah. Um, okay. So, so let's, let's play this out. So, uh, within the context of stress, which is basically leading to the activation of your sympathetic nervous system, This is one of two yin and yang parts of your autonomic nervous system, which means that your body just reacts. You don't necessarily get to choose. It just happens, right?

41:09So when your sympathetic gets activated, your brain will release a hormone called corticotropin releasing hormone or CRH. CRH comes from the brain and basically enters the pituitary gland and then sets off an entire storm throughout the body. Now, this was designed, if we go back to 99.99 % of human history, which predates modern times, right? This was designed where if there was something that was going to attack you, if there was some sort of serious threat, right? You instantly had the force that you need between your heart pumping, circulating blood, you're breathing heavy, circulating oxygen, your blood pressure is clamped down, so you're getting the blood to your tissues, right?

41:50And you're ready to go, right? And whether it's fighting another tribe or some animal that's attacking you or whatever it might be, that adrenaline saves your life potentially. Right. So it's an evolved mechanism. But the problem is everything comes with a price. So you are accepting this, all these benefits, but you're sacrificing your gut. That's what happens. You sacrifice your gut. And so that surge of adrenaline, that surge of cortisol, that's out of synchrony, out of context of, you know, I said that cortisol is good in the morning. All right. But what I'm saying is like cortisol is not good when it's some random time of day and you don't need it.

42:33Right. It sacrifices your gut health. and then ultimately what that results in is when you sacrifice the gut health the gut microbiome number one you feel it here so you might have to go to the bathroom or you might get the cramps or the bloating or whatever it might be right so you feel that that's your gut microbes that's also your gut motility that has been adjusted by the surge of stress but then it ultimately parlays into okay so if the gut microbes are weak then that affects the gut barrier when the gut barrier gets weak then that affects the immune system now you've just created inflammation interesting okay so that's, that's the way that it works with the sympathetic nervous system.

43:07All right. So, and then the gut gets weak and then that the gut actually sends signals back up to the brain, right? Through a number of different ways. But when the gut is unwell, our brain can't be fully well, huh? Right. So if you want to be sharp, if you're a high performer and you want to be sharp, focus, have intense cognitive endurance, you have to nurture your gut, right? That's a required step in order to get there now you can try to power yourself through using modern tools like energy drinks right or or like ritalin or something like this but you're not actually you're you're treating the symptoms you're not treating the source of your problem interesting so it sounds like your brain also influences your gut in these these times when you're feeling anxious or stressed or there's a pressure-filled moment whether it be a test or a sports game it's almost like how you think about what's about to happen is influencing the gut or releasing these hormones or whatever to make you either want to go to the bathroom or have bloating or gas or whatever it is right so these people that have chronic gut issues and it's important like so what we just described was the impact of stress which could be once in a while right we all have that uh-huh right that's not necessarily a bad thing your body will adapt and adjust you're okay right but there's also the people that are having it 24 hours a day.

44:28That's a lot. Right. And, and in many cases, these are the people who have dealt with something that's trauma. So where the trauma basically like creates a wound in the non-conscious mind. So you are not thinking about these things, right? Cause you're trying to push it to the side. Yes. Cause it hurts. Yeah. Right. So you're, that's the thing I don't want to deal with. Don't think about it. Yeah. So, but it still exists. you don't, you don't get to escape that unfortunately. So that trauma exists in the non-conscious mind. And what, what we have found is that basically this leads to number one, your brain activity is different.

45:07So people that have been, um, exposed to trauma, they have hyper activation of their amygdala, which is the fear center of their brain. So this is like this life of perpetual fear. Yes. Right. And then this leads to, you know, if the sympathetic nervous system and what I just described as stress, right, is putting your foot on the gas, then what I'm saying is within the context of trauma, the foot never comes off the gas. You got a lead foot. It's like, you know, uh, Keanu in speed and, you know, just like blast and speed blasting down the highway and you're trying to figure out like, how are we going to stop this runaway bus?

45:50Right. So, um, the way that you stop it is by ultimately healing the trauma. This is fascinating. Now, this is something I'm curious about. If someone has experienced trauma in their life, in their past, and, or they've interpreted an event as traumatic, whether it actually was or wasn't, but they've interpreted meaning that it was for them. And it happened 10, 20, 30 years ago. And in their subconscious mind, they either try to stuff it or put it away, or they haven't addressed that trauma, that wound. The mind is not in the body, right? The mind is like an energy around the brain, but it's not in the brain.

46:37Is that correct? I don't even know. But the brain is different than the mind. And if you're thinking something, then it's connecting to the brain signals and it's driving down into the gut. I'm trying to see where I'm going with this. But how much of trauma of the past that is interpreted as trauma that you have not healed, how much of that will impact your gut and really kind of consume your body? we know with total clarity that people that have been exposed to trauma are more likely to have specific gut related issues right so actually it's my mentor dr douglas drawsman at the university of north carolina who's the one who discovered this he was a professor of both medicine and psychiatry it's a unique unique intersection for being 1980s if you think about it right that's very progressive yeah and he studied you know where are these people with these gut issues what is like basically there from before.

47:37And he found a disproportionate association with prior trauma, including abuse, but not exclusively abuse. So the one, one, one point I kind of see as being a little bit important. I hope you don't mind is that, um, so you use the word interpret. I actually don't think that you get to interpret it either is or it isn't. So to me, trauma is something that has occurred in your life that overwhelms your ability to cope. Yes. Right. So whether you think it's trauma or it's not trauma, if there is something that has occurred in your life that overwhelms your ability to cope. You don't have the tools to cope with it.

48:19Right. So like in children, this is why children are much more vulnerable to these kinds of things because they just aren't yet developed in a sophisticated way in terms of their cognitive capacity. Right. their cognitive abilities, their abilities to cope with stress, things like this, right? So there's a higher vulnerability there. So if you overwhelm the ability to cope, then you've created a trauma. And that trauma may be something that you know it happened, but you don't necessarily want to acknowledge it. In fact, the mind is quite powerful at repressing those ideas and thoughts. The other thing that I would argue, Louis, is that there's some fascinating research.

48:51which I would love to share a quick study with you to prove that the book, I don't mean to plug this book up, but I can't help the fact that the title of this book is perfect. The Body Keeps the Score. It's great, yeah, I love it. It's the perfect title for a book. I don't know if it's, I haven't even read it. I don't even know if it's a good book. It's good? Yeah, it's good. I mean, it's more academic, but it's, yeah. It's like New York Times, like - Yeah, it's crushing, yeah, yeah. For like 10 years, but it's the perfect title. The Body Keeps the Score is so true. So there was a study that they did with children where they looked at kids who were adopted before age two.

49:29Okay. They have no recollection of these events. None of us can remember before age two. Right. Right. So I used to believe that if you can't remember it, it doesn't count. Yeah. Yeah. But you've suppressed it. Yeah. Well, and I've, I've now learned both in my own life and in this particular study to prove it, I was wrong. I was definitely wrong. The body keeps the score. So they looked at children who were adopted before age two and they looked at kids that came from like a normal family and, uh, and not, not adopted, not adopted. Right. And they, and they tracked out, you know, years later and they took a look and the kids who were adopted before age two.

50:15And again, they're like in a comfortable home. Like there's not like families. Yeah. good families. There's not some other explanation for this. They look at the gut microbiome, clear changes in the gut microbiome. Yeah. More inflammatory bacteria, less protective bacteria, and a loss of gut diversity. Really? Yeah. So these kids, again, this is years later, they have lost diversity in their gut. That's basically moving towards a unwell, what we call dysbiosis is what is occurring there. and they were more likely to suffer with digestive symptoms. They were more likely to feel anxious and they actually did a functional MRI to look at brain activity.

50:58And they found the brain activity in these, in these, you know, these people who like were adopted at B4H2 was different and their emotional processing and emotional regulation was out of whack. Wow. So they'd have like, these are people they've done nothing wrong. They don't deserve what they've received. They don't remember it. They don't even remember it. Right. But here are these things that continue to sort of echo into adulthood that they can't even remember. So it sounds to me like, correct me if I'm wrong, you could be eating all the right things and doing everything you can in your control to eat healthier.

51:38But if you haven't healed the trauma of the past, whether it was in your control or out of your control, you still might have a weaker gut microbiome, a weaker immune system because of that. Is that correct? This is 100 % correct. I would even extend it beyond the food, beyond the plate, because there's other elements of our life that are really important to our health, to the health of our gut microbiome, exercise. You and I both love exercise. I could break down for you why exercise is good for the gut microbiome. But the point is you could do that. You could sleep, you could meditate, you could try to do things.

52:11But if you don't heal the trauma. But if you don't heal the trauma, then you're not actually going to be well. And I've seen this. Yeah. So this is, and, you know, if you look to trauma is disproportionately also associated with autoimmune disease, right? So because basically that chronic activation of the immune system gets that immune system to the point that it's just like totally confused. Because I guess in the, in your mind, if you've experienced trauma, you know, and for me, I experienced different parts of trauma growing up. If you experienced some type of psychological, sexual, emotional trauma, physical trauma, and you don't learn how to heal that psychologically or emotionally or spiritually, there's some type of underlying guilt, resentment, anger, sadness, loss that you are just living with, that you haven't figured out how to process, specifically if you're five, seven, 12, and you don't have the tools on how to process, whether it be some type of therapy or something else that allows you to grieve, to rediscover your identity, to mend that emotional wound.

53:15And so when you live with this feeling that you are not enough for decades of your life, or that you're unworthy, or that you're unlovable, or that you're bad, or that you're wrong, or something's off with you, if that is your unconscious mind ruminating 24 seven that is building this i guess inflammation in your mind and your body it's weakening you in some ways which again is in weakening your gut is what i'm hearing you say yeah and i so a few things number one i have seen this in many patients right that the like the greatest moments of my career as a medical doctor and i've i was trying to figure like how many patients have I taken care of?

53:58And I landed on, it's somewhere in the range of 75 to 100 ,000, right? And in all of that, the greatest moments were the moments where I took a person and discovered that there was this thing, right? Like a trauma that they were trying to ignore because it hurts. So you don't wanna deal with it. You'd rather not talk about it, right? And so you have to get to a trusting place where you open up and you have that conversation. But the other thing too, Lewis, is what part of what to me makes chapter eight, my greatest chapter that I've ever written is that actually the chapter plays out and shares my personal journey of self-discovery where, you know, um, I have shared in the past that I changed my diet and therefore I got my health back.

54:45And the truth is I wasn't fully telling you everything that was going on in my life. Really? I wasn't ready. Wow. There was too much shame. Mm-hmm. I had a complex relationship with my dad that unfolded from the time that I was seven years old when my parents got divorced. And unfortunately, the divorce of my parents was not amicable. It's traumatic. Well, I was the oldest of three boys. I have two younger brothers. and um basically i was in second grade and one day didn't know this was going to happen my mom shows up and the car is packed fully and there's like a little spot basically earmarked for me wow that i slide into and we drive seven hours away with your younger brothers too or with my younger brothers and the only person that wasn't there was my dad wow you're seven i was And so we moved seven hours away, but eventually the court system says, you got to come back to Syracuse, New York.

55:58So we go back and, um, the way this is the 1980s, the way that the court system back then, I don't know what they do now. I have no clue, but the way that they dealt with it back then was to basically say, well, um, the oldest son, you know, he's, he, he's old enough to be able to kind of like give us answers oh my gosh so oh seven and so then that what basically unfolded from there was like a series of like psychologists and court appointed counselors and i would like do these sessions where you're sitting there with a psychologist and they're like draw me a picture of this or and so and this was like an ongoing like this is not like a short-term thing this is like an ongoing yeah like maybe a year and a half of this kind of stuff and during this period of time i know obviously that my parents are not together right and i know that that like they're not getting along and i also know that this is court related so basically like the words that i provide are ultimately going to dictate what happens with these parents so within that context for me i like i um i think i mean i may be wrong but i think that there's like this natural psychology that takes over at least it did for me there's this natural psychology that took over me of basically being like well you got to pick the winner wow right who's the good one and who's the bad one because one of them is good and the other is bad it's the way it has to be so i chose my mom and my dad i turned to and i was the oldest boy right so i think like you can appreciate this i think on some level um that like you're the defender.

57:43You're the one who stands up for the younger brothers. You're the one who protects. And so I, I basically psychologically turned towards my dad. I never actually said this to him, but this is the conversation that was in my mind as like seven, eight years old is how did you allow this to happen? Dad, how could you allow this to happen? You were supposed to be the man of this house. You were supposed to be the one that takes care of us that makes sure that everything is okay. Look at our family now. We were poor, right? We were poor. All the money was going to the attorneys. Look at what we're going through.

58:22Look at how horrible this is for us. You allowed this to happen. Why didn't you fix it? Why didn't you take care of us, right? I held him accountable for the whole thing.

58:34So this led to a rift between me and my dad. I'm sure your whole life probably. well yeah basically so i uh i was i was a good athlete so i played three sports in high school i was the captain of two teams and um for those of you who can't tell on camera lewis has me by one inch and he's very tall he's six foot five all right so anyway i was a good athlete and so the issue though is that because my parents were divorced and we lived two and a half hours away like on the weekend i had to go to see my dad but like that was tearing me away from my sports teams that was tearing me away from my friends so like the level of resentment just escalates right yeah and you get to a point where um i i just cut it off cut him off like i was basically like i don't want to talk to that guy wow and uh and we didn't talk from the time that i was in college until, if it's okay, I'll share the story.

59:34Okay. That we didn't talk until I was in my early thirties. Wow. So like 10 years maybe. A little more than 10 years. Wow. I mean, that'll cause some gut issues. So like what you described a moment ago of like shame, sadness, that's how I felt. Yeah. And so then the way that I dealt with it, I think other people handled these things in different ways. So for me, it was like, I'm going to show you. Achieve. I'm going to show you with such ridiculous achievements that you won't be able to deny. Wow. Right? So I mean - Anger fueled. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. So I accomplished everything and more that I could have possibly accomplished.

1:00:24I went to the number one, my number one choice for residency, for internal medicine, Northwestern, I, out of 60 brilliant doctors that I would beg to be my own doctor. If I needed someone, I actually won the highest award out of all of them. And then I went on a grant with the NIH at the, at arguably the number one school of public health in the country at the university of North Carolina. So I was like working at the school of public health on this grant from the NIH. Right. So all these things are happening. Well, you know what, While you're not talking to your dad. While not talking to my dad.

1:00:58But you know what? None of it made me happy. I was sad. I had extremely low self-esteem. And then simultaneously, the work of the hospital, it caught up to me. You know, I was working 80 to 100 hours a week, sometimes 30 hours in a row. And when I did have free time, I ate junk food because it tasted good. It's quick. Yeah, yeah. And it was quick and it was cheap. And I liked it. And, and when I had a day off, I got drunk and, and it was just, and I look back on it and I didn't even understand. It's like so obvious how sad I was. So anyway, what changed? So I, I wasn't comfortable with sharing the story and fiber fueled my first book, which came out in 2020.

1:01:47It was super easy for me to be like, yeah, I changed my diet. Hey, everything's good. Yeah. Everything's good. Right? Like, like this, this change. Okay. don't get me wrong changing my diet was helped a lot yeah yeah right but there's still something that's underlying that you know that you haven't addressed i had a lot that needed to be dealt with wow and so when did you start dealing with it um not by my own choice and if i did if i didn't if i wasn't blessed with a person that truly loved me i don't know if it ever would have dealt with wow so my wife now here we are you know um 12 years later and you gotta get that right my wife she comes into my life and she is an angel and she's exactly the person that i needed to come into my life at that moment and she says to me

1:02:50you gotta call your dad. when was this this was like probably like early fall of 2013 okay yeah so it had been more than 10 years wow graduated college in 2002 she says to me you gotta call your dad you got it you gotta reconnect with him so i pick up the phone and i call my dad and And Louis, he accepted me back instantly. Wow. He was so happy to hear from me. I'm sure. Totally caught off guard. Yeah. I hadn't heard his voice in more than 10 years. Holy cow. That's intense. And so the first time that I saw him was actually at my wedding. Wow. The first time I saw him in 10 years. Holy. All right.

1:03:43So we reconnect. I need to mention this. My dad was always a great dad. Yeah. There are things that I didn't understand. Of course. Until I had children of my own. Of course. Yeah. That like he would take, two younger brothers as I mentioned, he would take the three of us, like every time there's a vacation from school, you get some sort of break, we're hopping in the car, we're either driving into Canada because I lived in Syracuse, New York, or we're driving down the Eastern seaboard and we're going out exploring the world. We're doing stuff together, right? Three boys, just him. Wow, that's cool.

1:04:23Right. Weekends, we lived 45 minutes from the Adirondack Mountains. Okay. Friday evening, cars packed, hop in the car into the mountains, enjoy the weekend camping together, doing all kinds of fun stuff with him, right? But by himself, right? No one to support him, no one to help him, right? um and the other thing that i never really picked up on until i started to go back and and and and revisit experiences from my childhood the other thing i never picked up on is he never actually said anything bad about my mom wow not even once not everything's so black and white you know and uh i remember one time that my grandmother my dad's mom she started to say something and he squashed it.

1:05:08He said, you don't talk like that. And so, so anyway, so you reconnect, I reconnect and we had a couple of great years together. So you have to understand like part of our connection is through sports. So I grew up in Syracuse, New York, sports town, Syracuse orange. Um, so like we reconnected on that and like different things. And, uh, in the summer of 2019, I, I don't know if you've ever had this feeling. All I can say is, is what I experienced, which is that I felt compelled to go and see my dad. I had the same thing in 2019. Yeah. So in the summer of 2019, I can't understand why, where, why this came over me, but it did.

1:05:48It came over me in like very powerful way where it's like, your dad's getting old. You just don't know how much longer he's going to be here. Why don't you go see him? And so in September of 2019, I hop on a plane, go up to Syracuse and we had this uh really amazing weekend together so we uh we first went to a Syracuse football game they played the number one team in the country and they almost beat them and then we hopped in the car and we drove up into the mountains and we went to all of our favorite places that's cool favorite places that we had been to and then it's Sunday and we're coming back down from the mountains and he's supposed to take me to the airport he diverts the car and we go to Rome, New York, which is about an hour outside of Syracuse.

1:06:33And this is where my grandparents lived. And he takes me to this road and he shows me this 600 square foot house, right? He takes me around a couple of blocks away. He shows me another 600 square foot house. and he tells me this is this is where your great-grandparents lived this is where your grandparents were kids playing in the yard this is where our family polish immigrants this is where we started wow he takes me to the airport that's the last time i saw my dad in january of of 2020 i get a phone call from the police department he didn't show up to work and he had passed away over the weekend.

1:07:30And so the thing about it is, and I share this partially for the people who are at home, because I think that like coming out and discussing these things is important for other people to hear, because I think for some of them, it may impact them. but I also share this for you on a personal level, because you're a new dad. And I've been through the time that you and I have gotten to know each other, I've been pretty vocal about my love for being a dad and my children. And there was a moment in my life when everything changed. And it was the birth of my oldest daughter, who is 11 now. and there were a few things that happened in that moment for me so part of it was to feel the love that i had instantly that was unlike any love that i had ever experienced in my life it was so natural it was so authentic and it i don't know that there's anything that she could do that would make me not love her.

1:08:47And you feel that instantly. It's a very special feeling. And that allowed me to realize that that was the way that my dad felt about me. Right. And the other side to this is I think that there are aspects of our life that mature at a different pace so like for nutrition it was like a super quick and easy for me you know 2012 to like 2015 i was like a new man yeah right had like really drilled down and figured out what works for for me at least right um but like being willing to realize my own mistakes as part of the personal development that was necessary to accept that maybe part of this issue here was actually me.

1:09:41Right. But also I'm holding this child and like, I don't know where she came from, but she came from somewhere. there's a breath of life that came into this child that is completely undeniable and science will never actually be able to explain that that's true that's true and so that sort of experience leads you into some bigger questions yes of like understanding who i am within this broader story of everything that's unfolding and what is my purpose why am i here and what does it all mean and what will happen after i'm gone and so this led me on what was a very slow spiritual journey where i was like against it and closed off for a very long time.

1:10:53You're in your head, not in your heart. Yeah. And also, yes, that's actually a beautiful way to describe it. But also, I wasn't open to the possibility. No, no way. You're based on science and facts and show me a paper on this. And this is what you knew probably. Well, and I was raised, I was raised Catholic and we went to church and it was just sort of the obligatory hour. of course and it was completely uninspired sure and and also if your parents who will took you there they weren't able to figure things out and they kind of ruined your family dynamic you're like well this didn't work for them so why am i going to do this yeah and i had a thing happen where because my parents were divorced so we would we would um drive you know this is upstate new york where like snow can drop hard and fast all at once yeah and because you can get like effect snow and things like this.

1:11:49Yeah, they get like one foot and a couple hours. Exactly. It can be next level. So, um, so my parents were two and a half hours apart. So on Sunday evening I would come back, but if there was a bad snowstorm, instead of taking two and a half hours, it might take four hours, right. To get home. And so I was going to be confirmed. And there was a rehearsal for the confirmation for the ceremony. And I showed up late because no one did anything wrong, but like, because my parents are divorced. Yeah. Right. So I show up late and apparently the, uh, the priest, I'm not going to name his name, but he had given instructions of like, this is what I need you to say when you come to the altar.

1:12:30And it was very explicitly said, like, you better know this. And you didn't know it. Cause you got, I didn't know I wasn't there. Yeah. So I go up to the altar and he says, what do you have to say? And you're like, oh, I have no clue. Whack. no way oh man i mean honestly that's rough i've never had an adult hit me oh my gosh just hard how old were you probably 16 15 oh man that's unfortunate that's sad boom that is unfortunate so so for me it was trauma there for sure huge trauma there well i mean i don't i don't know if if like where's an embarrassment there's a there definitely was embarrassment everyone's wrong with me there's a shame yeah all that stuff i mean but at a minimum at a minimum it set me so far back spiritually because it was basically like yo i'm not like i'm good yeah yeah i'm good right so where are you at now so yeah so for me i think like between the birth of my child between building this family and then these bigger questions and then having to process and resolve the death of my father right so where did my daughter's soul come from but where did my dad's soul go right Where is he?

1:13:40And why am I here? Right. So that actually has led me to actually a wonderful place. And yes, and I share this because in the chapter, I do talk about trauma. I do talk about human connection and our need for human connection, which was really exemplified in the story of me and my dad. Like there was, it was a broken connection that I, in order to be healthy and happy and and my best version myself, I needed to reestablish that. But the other factor here is that I actually think that for me, I'm just speaking for myself, that I haven't really felt fully like myself until I started to lean in and open up my heart.

1:14:26And as I've done that, and I'm not telling people what to believe, because the truth is that outward organized religion is not actually what I'm talking about right now. Right, right, right. What I'm talking about is an intimate conversation between you and something bigger that occurs during the quiet times by yourself. Yeah. Right? Wow. Because that's what really matters. That's what really matters. And then all of the other stuff you can use to support that relationship. Of course. Right? So for me, it has just been this beautiful healing season. And so for me, so like Louis, as a medical doctor, I mean, I acknowledge that there's absolute barriers to some of these conversations, right?

1:15:12Where it's like, people see it as a big risk. Rich Roll is like, whoa, like I did not expect that. Yeah, yeah. Right? You're taking a risk there. But what I said to him and what I'm saying to you and the listeners is, I am a medical doctor. I am here to heal. That is my mission. That is my purpose. I'm completely aligned on my purpose. It's a beautiful thing for me, right? But if I'm going to fulfill that purpose, then I have to follow through on these things, even when it's hard to say. 100%. And so this honest conversation is really about helping people to heal and the acknowledgement that healing comes in many places.

1:15:52And it can be the four workhorses, right? Or it could be circadian rhythm, or it could be supplement stacks. These are all chapters in the book. but what i'm saying is there's also healing that comes for your soul from yes from your connections to other people the ones you love right and to lean into that what is the chapter in the book called uh so great so it's chapter eight and basically it's called mind body healing mind body healing mind body healing now where's your relationship with the catholic faith or your faith now it's in an amazing like you've healed that moment that trauma from that priest that did that and you feel like you've reconnected to that faith or is it i've connected to it i don't i don't consider myself catholic and but i actually don't have any problem whatsoever with the catholic church yeah where i have come to is that organized religion we have to be willing to see that on both a micro level like this getting slapped by a priest yeah right or on a macro level like cover-ups and things like this right or or there's history right there's tons of history in every religion yeah Yes.

1:16:58Uh, we have to be willing to see that these are the flaws of humans. Yes. Right. That humans that are trying, they may think that they're right or whatever, but they can make mistakes. Right. But that has nothing to do, nor should you allow that to stand in the way of something that's so beautiful, special that you absolutely need in your life. And I'm, I'm, of the belief that people are starving for this, which is a relationship with a higher power. You should not allow those outward things. So then once you cultivate that inside of you, there's going to be a natural desire to express it outwardly.

1:17:39And that comes through these forms of like, you know, spiritual practice. Yes. Right. So for me, I don't, I don't, I don't consider myself Catholic, but I do consider myself Christian. Yes. I do. There's a, it's a whole different conversation that like is not really what I came to talk about. Sure. Of like my belief in the Bible, right? My belief in Jesus, right? So I have my feelings there. Do you feel like your immune system and your gut microbiome are healthier because you have a strong belief in Jesus and God? I know. It's not my thing. I know. And it's completely backed by science. Wow. 100%.

1:18:18Yeah. So let me be clear. I am not proposing a health hack where you find God for help. No, no, no. Right? This is not a transactional thing. Of course. Right? This is so much more beautiful, special, and powerful. But if you look at people who are more faithful, they are less depressed. They are more optimistic for the future. They have better emotional processing. They're able to deal. They're more resilient. They live longer. And there's many different forms of disease that are associated with lower risk. And to bring it full circle and not to turn this into a science lesson, because I actually love where we went with this, but there still is the faith and the science, they're both there.

1:19:04And that's okay, because they can both exist. Yes. And, and the science says that what's happening, whether it's through our spiritual practices, reading the Bible, attending a service, singing in synchrony with other people, right? Spiritual music, dancing, chanting, things like that. All these things, they're activations of the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest, digest, and I feel safe. Yes. Part that is the counterpoint to the sympathetic. So we talked about the sympathetic being activation. Now I'm saying safety exists. Safety and healing exists in your parasympathetic. So those are examples.

1:19:46But then in our human connection, holding hands, hugging, feeling bonded to your partner, intimacy with a partner that you actually, love, not just, you're not just, it's not sport, right? These things actually are also activations of our parasympathetic nervous system. So, and then like, uh, the question that you asked me that has taken me an hour, this is the most divergent answer of all time. You asked me like, what is the thing that you can do? And you asked me about food, but I'm actually going to divert away from food. And what I'm going to say is like in the moment of stress where your sympathetic nervous system is firing, you can breathe.

1:20:25So all of these different forms of breath work that you hear people talk about, whether it's, um, whether it's Wim Hof or you hear Andrew Huberman talk about techniques, or it's in, in my space as a gastroenterologist, we use techniques called diaphragmatic breathing, right? Which are basically meant to really force your diaphragm to pull air into your lungs with deep breaths in through the nose, out through the lips. These breath by itself has the ability to activate our vagus nerve, which can take the foot off of the gas and put it on the brake and allow you to get into rest and digest and safety mode.

1:21:05To recap and acknowledge what I'm hearing you say is that we can apply all the strategies in your book, Plant Power Plus, to activate the power of your gut to tame inflammation and reclaim your health. There's lots of supplements, foods, and strategies that we can't implement. But it sounds like if you're looking for ultimate health, ultimate freedom and healing, then revisiting and healing the traumas of the past and integrating them in a healthy way in your life so that you feel you've resolved them and they don't hurt you anymore, along with connecting to God or a higher power and having a beautiful relationship and faith in God or a higher power.

1:21:53Those two things are just as powerful, if not more powerful than any type of food, hack, sleep, sunlight that you can get in your life. For a lot of people, that's the healing that they so desperately need. 100%. I know what your next book is about. It's about that whole chapter and going deeper on science and faith. I feel like that is what you said people are starving for. Obviously, they're starving to eat healthier foods because people are sick. But there is an underlying root cause of that sickness, that disease that I feel like, which is a lack of faith, a lack of spiritual connection, and a lack of healing, the emotional, psychological, sexual traumas that people have faced in their past.

1:22:41And when we can heal the past and when we can find meaning of our faith and find a relationship with a faith, I feel like that's when true freedom comes in people's mind-body connection. That's when the immune system relaxes, like you said. That's when you aren't on fight or flight mode constantly. It doesn't mean everything's gonna be perfect, but you can have more tools to address life's challenges. And so I hope that is the next book you talked about and research, because that is the thing that people need the most. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna count on you in three years to have. Don't be mad at me if I don't, but.

1:23:17No, no, no, no. It's funny. Cause I had Andrew, Andrew Huberman on my show a couple of months ago, and most of the conversation was around his spiritual practice and how it's actually helped him heal and feel better. I think it's a game changer. I think it's a game changer. I didn't expect it. I did not expect it, but it has changed my life and it allows me to be actually a far more resilient person and, um, and the best version of myself show up every day. I hope more medical practitioners listen to this and start applying this to their practice for themselves so that they can also just communicate better and see people differently and connect with people on a spiritual level, even, and also bring the science and the medicine to it as well.

1:24:00Hopefully, hopefully people listen to this and watch it and start doing that. Your book, Plant Powered Plus, is a powerful reminder on how to activate the power of your gut to tame inflammation and reclaim your health. I hope everyone gets a copy of this book because a lot of people in the world are sick and we need people to get healthier. And there's tools that they can do here that'll support them. All of the tools are laid out. yeah they are evidence-based and they're available so that you get to choose right it's on the table you pick and choose what are the things that you're going to pick up off that table and introduce it to your life yes and if you do that if you have the audacity to try something different and you do that you will feel i promise you you will feel the difference and when you do you will know you're on to something and you're going to want more and there's there will be even more for you you can keep doing it yes they can get the book everywhere books are sold your youtube channel the gut health md also the gut health md on social media and the gut health md.com you've got a great newsletter you have recommendations for you've got a great supplement company that supports people that can help them with their gut as well uh and so much great content that you have online what else can we uh where else can we follow or support you with this journey well you've quite thoroughly laid it out.

1:25:23So I do appreciate that. Um, look, I, to me, this is about, uh, an opportunity to continue the conversation beyond the show. Right. So I would encourage people completely free tools, come to my website, sign up for my newsletter, grab the book. If you borrow it from the library and you read it, trust me, I'm not upset at all because what I want is I want your time. I want your time. I want your attention. I want the opportunity. I just want that chance that I could change your life. Right. Because that's what, like, that's what I'm trying to do here. So, and then once you do that, then just know like I'm here for you and I want to keep working.

1:26:04And I got, there's many years in front of me. I'm 45 years old. So let's keep rolling. I'm telling you that next book before you're 50, that's got to be on somewhere and your journey. I'm telling you, it's gotta be. If you're saying that's what people are starving the most for, then you're perfectly positioned to serve people with that journey, with your own personal experiences. Maybe it's a couple articles to start or something like that. See what happens. You know what's interesting is that all of the conversations that as I've been are leading into this, right? Because this is what ultimately like - What do you wait for?

1:26:38It's what people want to talk about. That's what they need, man. That's what they need. Well, I asked you this the last time. I'm curious what there is now after this book is out and after this conversation, but what would you say if you get to live as long as you want, but at the end of the day, you only get to share three lessons with the world and we don't have access to your books or your work or your newsletters anymore, but it's many years in the future, last day on earth for you, and you get to leave behind three truths. What would those truths be for you? To me, number one, you need to figure out who you are and what your purpose is.

1:27:14And once you identify that, you should never stop. Never stop in the pursuit of that purpose. That's who you are. That's what you were meant to do. So that's number one. Number two, don't forget where you came from, right? The people who have supported you, right? The people who made you who you are today. There's an entire story there. It's not just this moment. There's a built generations of people before you. who led up to who you are. Never forget those connections. Never forget the importance of the other people in your life. Because honestly, all the other bulls**t, sorry for the profanity.

1:27:55It's all good. Yeah, it's fine. All of that, the money, the fame, the power, it will never bring you the joy that you get from those people that brought you to where you are today. And last but not least, know, know with absolute clarity that you are a part of something bigger, better, and it is gorgeous. It is beautiful. So even the idea, Louis, I mean, I don't want, we're at the end, so I don't want to introduce a new topic for debate or discussion, but even the idea of living forever, look, I get it. But at the same time, where my dad is right now, one day I'll be with him. I'll be able to say the things that I need to say to him.

1:28:41And you know what else? He'll meet his grandchildren. Wow. That's beautiful. That's beautiful, man. Well, I want to acknowledge you, Will, for opening up the way you have been. And I think, again, I hope you keep sharing like this because I think this is what people are starving for, to hear these types of conversations and stories, specifically from a medical professional like yourself at the highest level who is used to research and studies and data and science, to hear spirituality come from you and how this is the ultimate level of healing based on what I'm hearing you say for you and the ultimate level of joy and fulfillment and love.

1:29:21That's what we want. Sure. We want to be healthy and happy, but it's like the ultimate levels of joy come from what you just talked about, because I think it's where we get ultimate peace, freedom, and healing from is that connection. So I appreciate you. I'm grateful for you. And my final question, Will, is what is your definition of greatness? I think I go back to this idea of living your life with purpose, right? If you are aligned with your purpose, anything that you do, anything is greatness. There you go. Well, thank you, man. Appreciate it. Powerful. It's awesome. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:30:02Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:30:41And now it's time to go out there and do something great.