Everything You Need To Know To Fix Your Diet & Nutrition To Live Longer w/ Michael Pollan EP 1424

29:21pizza looks like pizza and, you know, these, you know, convenient frozen dishes in the grocer's freezer. But it's not the same. That, you know, that packaged ravioli or tomato sauce is not what those things were or should be. So in a way, it's an easy fix and it's a hard fix. I remember I was speaking, I was giving a speech to a group of health insurance executives, and I was trying to enlist their support for reform of the food system, which is one of my causes. They don't want that, though. Well, the reason was very interesting. And I was saying, you know, you guys should be allies of the food reform movement because every case of type 2 diabetes you prevent is$400 ,000 to your bottom line.

30:08That's how much it costs to treat each case over the life of that person. $400 ,000. $400 ,000 for something that can be completely prevented. And one of the presidents of these organizations came up to me after and says, you don't understand. We don't have a long-term interest in your health because the churn, because the churn, because medical contracts for medical insurance are only one year. And people are constantly switching plans and companies are constantly switching plans. So we don't, you know, you're talking about something that is going to benefit you over years, and we don't care about that.

30:49And I realized there is a simple fix. How about five-year contracts for health insurance? That would completely change the incentives for the insurance company, and they would start talking to us about prevention. Interesting, because they don't, they benefit when we are sick. Well, I don't know that they benefit, but they don't benefit when we prevent. When we're super healthy. Yeah. So they're not invested in preventive medicine. Wow. And the drug companies aren't. Oh, they benefit enormously from chronic disease. Sure. That's the only way they make money. Yeah. Ozempac. I mean, right. Everybody's taking Ozempac for diabetes and weight loss now.

31:29How much money are these drug companies making? I don't have any figures. It's a huge industry. Huge. and you know their business model too is some drug you have to take every day of the rest of your life. But that doesn't cure the illness. No they're not cures for the illness they're just dealing with the symptoms and that's true for mental health drugs too. SSRIs don't cure depression. I mean they you know tamp down symptoms when they work. What is the greatest cure for depression without any drugs? I would say exercise. It's huge. And eating real food. I think you do those two things. Now, it's not going to work for everybody.

32:11Some people have depression caused by trauma and all sorts of different factors. But those two things can make a huge difference. I don't think we fully recognize the mental health impacts of the way were eating. When you're eating a diet that is, for example, has lots of sugar in it, you're going to be on an emotional roller coaster. I mean, watch kids with sugar, you know, and they think that chocolate or this kind of sweetened cereal makes them happy. And it does for a little while, but they crash. And that's true for us too. We have these ups and downs during the day that have a lot to do with our sugar intake.

32:49And then when we get this spike and it has to do with glucose, release and things like that. And then we crash. And the solution to that is more, more sugar. So snacking is another thing too. We're, you know, meals, meals are like a really good human institution. Snacking, you know, we're eating, you know, all day long. How bad is snacking for our, our, our gut microbiome, for our brain and for our overall just metabolism, if we're eating meals and then snacking a little bit here and there in between? I mean, I don't think snacking is like evil or anything. And I think a lot depends on what you have.

33:29I snack. I'm a writer. So, you know, I'm at my desk. I'm supposed to get up. That's the other. That's the competing value, right? You should stand every half hour. And move a little bit. And where do you go? You go to the kitchen. And you heat up your coffee or pour a cup of tea. And then you have, you know. I'll have some nuts or some re-nuts. I'll have a handful of nuts or dried fruit. Yeah, definitely. And I'm not like Obama. I don't count my almonds as he allegedly did.

33:58So I think snacking, you kind of lose sight of how much you're eating. It just becomes kind of invisible. So, I mean, I think it's something that people have to be careful about. But I don't believe in being punitive about it. But I think eating meals with other people, you know, we're talking about food as if it's this transaction between us and this stuff. but meals eating with other people affects how you eat you you know when you're eating with other people you put down the fork and talk and then you pick it up and there's more time and the more time you spend eating the more likely you are to know when you're full it takes 20 minutes for the body to send you the news like enough we're 20 minutes so if you're eating really fast you're defeating that signal.

34:48And so you're eating too much. But if you have a leisurely meal, you're much more likely to realize, you know, I think I've had enough. It's interesting because I was just having a breakfast meeting this morning and it probably went for about an hour and a half, right? It was a great meeting and meal because I noticed that I did not finish my plate. I was engaged. I was talking and then I eat a little bit when they were talking, you know, and have a few bites. And then I would, you know, have my fork here with food and be like talking to them and just like, okay, let me listen and engage. And it got to the point, and I didn't have a lot.

35:24I had two eggs, scrambled eggs. I had a couple of pieces of bacon and I had some, you know, potatoes, kind of the standard breakfast. Yeah, exactly. Right. Um, and I, and I was eating the potatoes and I was like, huh, okay, I'm getting pretty full. And I just left the last potato and I was just like, let me just experiment. I left it on the And I could have eaten it easily, but I left it because I was like, I actually feel pretty satisfied. Well, that clean plate ethic is really bad. I mean, why? I mean, when you're done eating, it's okay if you leave something on the plate. And in fact, it's a good practice.

35:59Just make a point. I'm not going to eat the last thing on my plate. Really? As an exercise. Now, what do you feel like? Well, I don't want to waste food. Well, yeah, I know. And that's what we were brought up. People are starving in Korea or whatever. Yeah. The thing you heard from your parents. So you can box them. You're not going to help them if you leave a potato. Maybe you should take less at the beginning or maybe, you know, portion size is a huge problem. Huge. Don't get the appetizers. Don't get the desserts. You know, have. We tend to think that the amount of food put in front of us is the proper amount to eat.

36:29It's usually probably double what we're supposed to eat. And for food, for restaurants, they've learned that we appreciate ampleness and the cost of the food is one of their lowest costs. And so they give us portions that are too big. And we compliment a restaurant for having big portions. You feel like you're getting more for your value. Yeah, you feel you're getting good value. And the economics definitely work for the restaurants, but it doesn't work for us. So we end up, big portions are definitely part of our problem. So you mentioned before, you know, two great ways to minimize or decrease depression for a human being is healthy nutrition and exercise.

37:12those two things. Getting some sunlight is really good too. Sunlight, probably quality sleep as well. Oh yeah. I mean people are depressed often have trouble sleeping but one of the ways to fix your circadian rhythms is make sure every morning you look at the sun, you go outside, even if it's cloudy, just look at where it should be. And that information comes through your eyes to your brain and kind of sets your clock and it will improve your sleep. Yeah, Dr. Andrew Huberman has done a a lot of research on that and preaches it almost every day about the research and post - That and breathing, yeah.

37:46He says that's his number one health tip is get outside and look at the sun. First thing in the morning, right? Not when it's already up and you can't look at it. And it's okay if you didn't get up at dawn, but before midday. Yeah, get up for 10, 15 minutes and look towards the sun, right? Just allow your eyes to gaze towards it. And you'll be getting outside and you'll be getting some vitamin D because we spend way too much time inside. Yeah. Being outside is, you know, I mean, exercising outside, I think, is better for us than inside. What do you think is the root cause of depression? Why someone could get depressed or chronic depression?

38:22Because we all go through sadness and grief and loss and heartache and, you know, relationships and deaths and, you know, career ending, things like that, where there might be a season of sadness. But the chronic depression, what is the root cause of that? I don't think we know. You know, there are people looking for genes implicated in depression. They have not had success finding them. There is depression caused by events. People with a cancer diagnosis get depressed. We understand exactly why. And if they're healed or cured, their depression might lift. But then you have other people, and I've interviewed them in my research on psychedelics, who've been depressed for 30 years without a break.

39:00And I don't think we really understand that. It's exhausting on the nervous system. Yeah, it takes a toll. On the brain, on the heart. Every system. Every system. But I don't think we have a real understanding of what's going on. I mean, one of the things I've learned about mental health is that there's a lot we don't understand. We don't even know if depression, anxiety, addiction, and say OCD are separate diseases or are they four different symptoms of the same underlying disease, which is to say a mind that is too rigidly bound up and stuck in patterns of rumination. They're all characterized by rigidity and strong habits.

39:43A controlling nature almost, right? Yeah, an attempt to control nature. And they're also characterized by these destructive narratives that people tell about themselves. So, you know, they're in the DSM, you know, the Bible of diagnoses. They're listed as separate things. But I've talked to psychiatrists who say, no, they may all be the same thing. Susan David talks about emotional agility. having the ability to be flexible with our emotions and not be so rigid. Yeah, habits get us into trouble with food, certainly, and with our mental health. And habits are really valuable. I mean, they can organize your life.

40:26They can save you from having to run the algorithm. Every time a new situation comes up, it's like, okay, this is a conversation with my boss. This is the kind of thing that works. You have a habit. but they also are straitjackets. Yes. And the older we get, the harder it is to break habits. And that's one of the really interesting things about psychedelic medicine. I'm not talking about psychedelics used recreationally, but when they're used in a therapeutic context, people seem to be able to break habits of thought and behavior. Interesting. And that's really powerful. And that allows you to start taking different consistent actions, which get you different emotional results.

41:08Exactly. And you can basically lay down the pathways of new habits, which becomes more and more important as we age. Have you ever felt extreme depression in your life? I have had periods. I don't know that they were extreme, but I've definitely had periods that I can remember where I was depressed or anxious. I had periods when, as a teenager, I was a very anxious teenager, and then experienced some depression in my, I would say in my 20s, and not so much since then. Why do you think you have a pretty, you know, harmonious emotional environment internally? Well, you're assuming that's the case, but thank you.

41:55Well, if you're not in depressed states, then you have to be at least neutral. I'm definitely not in depressed states, and I'm definitely not in an anxious state. And I think a lot of it owes to the fact that I'm mindful about my health, which means exercise. And I mean, I do a couple of things. I have a whole regime. So I eat real food, not too much, mostly plants. I struggle with the not too much because I love to eat. But if you're eating real food, it's less of an issue. You know, overeating, you know, a vegetable stir fry is not going to get you in trouble the way overeating a pizza is. Yeah, or a whole cake or something.

42:29Yeah, and I don't have a big sweet tooth, luckily. That's not helpful. I wish I had that disease. Yeah, yeah. So I don't crave dessert, and I rarely do have dessert. That's a gift. Okay, so you eat real food. So food, eating real food, exercising at least 30 minutes a day, and I do aerobic exercise, and I do floor and weight work. I mean, it's amazing the benefits of moving 30 minutes a day on how much more joy, excited you can be, how much more peaceful, how much more gratifying. It's the best drug there is. It just makes you feel better. So if you don't feel good, move. Yeah, it's so important.

43:12There was a study that came out just a couple weeks ago that said 11 minutes of walking will improve your longevity and improve your health in general. 11 minutes. So it doesn't have to be a lot. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to be running. You can be walking. So exercise, food. Eat real food. And the last thing is I meditate. And I meditate about 25 minutes a day, preceded by some breathing exercises. And, you know, that's stress reduction. You know, the other thing people don't talk about, and it's very hard to quantify, is social connection. Huge. And loneliness, the Surgeon General, Vivek Murphy, has really made this his cause.

44:02He wrote a really good book on loneliness. And that people without social connection or who are mediating their social connection through social media, which isn't the same thing. You're not connected. You're not really connected. You have faux friends. You have faux connection. But that's really important. and having some sort of social group that supports you in some ways. And so those four things, I think, are so important. So cultivating your friendships is huge. How many people have you studied or worked with who have been in emotionally depressed states that started doing these four things, essentially?

44:46The three things plus deepening their intimate relationships saw improvement. Oh, many, many people. I mean, I've seen this over and over again. I'm not a scientist, so I haven't researched it and obviously haven't done a control. But I've seen it in my friends. I've seen it in relatives. It can do a lot for people. And by the way, we have evidence that the regime I'm just describing has very positive effects on people's cardiovascular health. Dean Ornish has done a lot of research using pretty much that regime, those four things, although he insists on a totally plant-based diet. And I think it should be substantially plant-based.

45:34And he has also done that with men with prostate cancer and has found... Prostate cancer is a very interesting case because many people are not treated for it since, you know, it often doesn't advance. So it's one of the rare cancers that people live with for years and can be studied while they're being surveilled for it. So we can look at lifestyle interventions and see if they make a difference. So UCSF put several thousand men on this regime with a control to see if it would have an effect. And indeed, it slowed the progression of their disease and lowered their PSA scores, which is a marker of prostate cancer.

46:16Wow. And Dean Ornish is now trialing this with a group of people just diagnosed with Alzheimer's to see if it has an effect on the progression of their disease. With eating real food, exercise, and meditation? Yeah. It doesn't have to be meditation. Some kind of stress reduction. It could be yoga. Yeah. Breath work. Breath work. It's all those techniques we have to essentially lower stress. Wow. I think I love this prescription, you know, this organic, intuitive prescription. It's too bad doctors don't talk about it more, too. And I think the other elephant in the room that we, you know, kind of hit on a little bit is the trauma.

46:57You know, because I think you can eat well, you can exercise, you can meditate, you can have social connections. but if there's still trauma stored in our memories or in our body, it can take us farther, but we can still be pulled back into the trauma. And I think because I did all these things for many years, but I still hadn't faced certain traumatic memories. I hadn't created new meaning from those memories. I hadn't processed them. I hadn't fully addressed them. I didn't fully unpack and talk about them and have catharsis and emote in those feelings and grieve and go through the wide range of emotions of traumatic moments in my life.

47:40How did you end up doing that? I did that in the last couple of years. It's been a 10-year journey of healing traumatic experiences. Ten years ago, I opened up about being sexually abused as a kid when I was five. It's one of my first memories, actually. and for most of my life that emotional and psychological wound was a memory playing in my mind almost daily you know just kind of come up and i would just push it away and work really hard so i used so it was present it wasn't a suppressed constantly present but i would try to run away from it i tried to out work it i would try to you know be a workaholic in sports and achieve and succeed to validate I'm worthy, lovable, and enough.

48:21Yeah. But it wasn't until I hit 30 when I had lots of breakdowns in my life that I realized I had never addressed it or told anyone. And so I went down a process, and I've talked about this many times on my show and publicly, but I went down a process of facing the trauma, you know. With the help of therapists? I did it in an emotional intelligence workshop initially, So kind of a safer environment in a group setting and then worked with therapists to unpack it more and process that healing. And then I ended up writing about it in a previous book on the mask of masculinity. I talked about where I feel like a lot of men suffer from trauma that they never express.

49:02They never talk about it in a healthy way. And so I was able to unpack that. But then there were more things over the last 10 years that I needed to face that I was unwilling to or I thought maybe I'd done all the work. in the last couple of years, it was really kind of healing the pain in my heart in other ways through emotional coaching sessions, but very intense, you know, three to five hour sessions on every Saturday for months because I wanted peace and freedom in my heart. Again, I ate well, I exercise well, I'm healthy, but emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, there was wounds that I hadn't yet mended.

49:39I hadn't yet healed and created new meaning, as Viktor Frankl talks about, is creating that meaning behind these traumatic events. And I think the healing of the trauma, for me, has brought me so much peace, psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually, and physically. There was physical pain in my chest, in my throat, that would come and go, that now I haven't felt in almost two years. And for most of my life, you know, 38 years, I felt pain, palpitations off and on, depending on life's circumstances. And now with some of the most chaotic events in life, a book launch, moving into a new home, buying a home, you know, I just turned 40, like all these kind of like events, life events, I feel peaceful.

50:28And the only way that I could attribute, now it doesn't mean I don't have moments of stress and overwhelm, but the way I feel peaceful is because I've been doing so much of the healing trauma work, but been willing to say, I'll do anything. I'll try, I'll say anything, I'll try things, whatever type of emotional experiences you want me to go through, healing the inner child wound, you know, having spiritual experiences with my five-year-old self, my 12-year-old self, whatever it is, having those conversations, I've been doing that. And that has given me a sense of peace and freedom that I've never felt in my life.

51:02And that's why I was interested about, you know, psychedelics and the topic of psychedelics because I have lots of friends and I swear by it. I've been in ceremonies. I've sat in ceremonies and watched people. I've seen everything been passed around. I've seen people like go, you know, hallucinate. I've seen people throwing up. I've seen people crying. I've seen people releasing. I've seen these things. And I've been curious about them, but I've always been weary of recommending or suggesting these things because I've one, never done it and I don't want to recommend something, but I'm also curious about the long-term potential side effects of an external drug putting into the body and how that affects the brain, the heart, the emotions and all these different things.

51:49And I love your example of having these breakthrough moments for people to change their habits, which I think is necessary for healing and shifting our behavior. And my thought is, is there a way to do that emotionally, spiritually, and psychologically and try everything else first before doing psychedelics? Or should people go right into a therapeutic psychedelics without trying all the other types of therapeutic experiences first? Well, I don't think it's a one size fits all. I mean, it takes a lot of courage to do what you did. It was painful and scary, and you feel like you're going to die emotionally.

52:31And so some people are not going to be able to do that. They're not going to have the commitment or fear is going to get in the way of doing it. I've been researching psychedelic therapy since 2014. I, too, had never used psychedelics and was really afraid of them. I had a series of experiences for my books on psychedelics, How to Change Your Mind and then This is Your Mind on Plants. The night before every one of those experiences, I was... Terrified. I was up all night. I was, you know, because, you know, the self, the inner self is a really scary place to go. Yes. Right? Terrifying. Yeah. There's a darkness in there.

53:16And you're opening a door and you don't know what's going to be on the other side of that door. No, it's terrifying. I found in the event that they were powerful and really interesting experiences. And I have not yet on psychedelics had the experience of, I've had some dark experiences and kind of wrestling matches with certain things. But I haven't had the experience some people do, which is a trauma that they were not aware of comes up. Come up, yeah. And that can be really destabilizing if you're not being held in a therapeutic relationship. In other words, if you're not with a facilitator or guide who can help you, it can be incredibly productive when it comes up.

53:57Because now you know, oh, there's the problem. You're aware of it. Yeah, you're aware. But if you don't have an ongoing integrative therapeutic process afterwards, you could downward spiral. You could. And it's really important, I think, to, if people are going to explore psychedelics, to deal with their mental difficulties, that they do it with somebody who is well-trained. And in the specific case of trauma, which I think is much more widespread in our society than we realize. Because there's big T's and little t trauma. Oh, yeah. There's traumatic events, and then there's just the feeling of abandonment by your parents.

54:33Yeah, or you had an alcoholic parent. and you can't point to one event. They weren't abusing you, but it was an abusive experience. Yeah, yeah. So what has proven most effective is MDMA in the treatment of trauma. What does that stand for again? I don't know. I'm sorry. It's a short. I should know that. But it's also known as ecstasy or molly. That's the street name. But it's MDMA. It's a drug that's been around since the 30s. People don't realize it was used in psychotherapy in the 70s and early 80s until it was banned in 1985. And that's when it became a very popular rave drug. And the DEA just cracked down on it and said, we're not going to.

55:18But it was being used effectively in therapy. There are now two phase three studies. That's the last phase before approval, showing that about two-thirds of the people who have been diagnosed with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder who have guided mdma trips usually two lose that diagnosis in other words they don't qualify for a diagnosis of ptsd anymore that's an astonishing result two-thirds right um so that i think is going to be a powerful tool and it is going to be approved by the fda in the next couple years um some people say next year wow because the data is in and the data is very strong.

56:02So that's an encouraging thing because the kind of, you know, we have soldiers who've been traumatized. We have women who've been traumatized by sexual abuse. We have racial trauma in this country and we may have a powerful new tool to treat it. On the risk of taking in these foreign substances. Right. And how that affects the brain chemistry and long-term effects? I don't think people realize this, but most drugs have what's called an LD50, the amount of the drug you take where 50 % of the rats or whatever it is die. The lethal dose, okay? LD stands for lethal dose. Wow. There is no lethal dose of psilocybin or LSD or DMT.

56:47That's astonishing. So you can't... You can't overdose. You can't overdose. You can get screwed up. You can get crazy. You can't die. You can't die. Well, maybe you could, I mean, who knows? Maybe there's a certain amount you just take, your brain just... There is one reported case of, and this is a horrible story, of shooting up an elephant with LSD with huge amounts of LSD. Oh, man. And it died. But it also had received huge amounts of a tranquilizer. So it's not really useful information. But there's a lot of safety data on these drugs. And I don't think people know or realize that there are over-the-counter drugs that can be lethal.

57:28It's only about 17 or 20 pills of Tylenol and you can kill yourself. Wow. Okay? The equivalent amount of LSD is not going to do that. So brain toxicity, you know, unless we're missing something and it's going to take, you know, but people have been using LSD for a long time. They've been using ayahuasca, which has DMT in it, and they've been using psilocybin for thousands of years. But just because they've been doing it for thousands of years, does that mean it's good for the brain and your emotional state long term? Yeah. Well, no. But I think that if it were, you know, having consistent patterns of damage of some kind, we would have picked it up.

58:11Sure. MDMA is a little more toxic. but the thing to understand about psychedelic therapy is like i mean we should be asking the same questions of ssris and all the anti-psychotic drugs 100 which people take every day now i have friends who have been you know doing shrooms and ayahuasca and all these different things for years and some of them swear by they say like this is the answer this is helpful this is like giving me clarity it's showing me visions it's helping me like face traumas things like that which i'm all for those things but my my curiosity comes in when someone needs to do these things over and over and over again as opposed to okay i've got the awareness which is what i need it's pulling out the the stuff from the past that i wasn't even aware of or the things that i needed to face now i've had these moments of clarity darkness visioning all these different things that allow me to open my heart, express these things, release.

59:10I'm all for that. It's when people need to do it over and over again, every month or every six months and go back to like some, you know, psychedelic retreat, which gets me wondering why. Why do you need to continue to do it every six months, every year, consistently when you've started to face it? Is there other emotional or psychological therapies they can do to process and integrate healing without external chemicals entering the body and the brain. Right, right. That's my thoughts. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, there are people who, I mean, it depends on why people are using it, okay?

59:47You talk about healing, and that should be Heaven Arc, right? Yes. And, you know, you get the message, and then you hang up the phone, as Ron Doss or somebody like that said when he stopped using psychedelics. And then there are other people who get into, I mean, you could call it a habit. They don't use them every day. They don't use them every week. the experience is you don't feel like using it again i mean when you have a big psychedelic experience your first thought this isn't like using a drug like cocaine or something your first thought is not where can i get some more your first thought is do i ever have to do this again because it's really hard work it's intense but there are people who have a regular journey and sometimes there are people who are using psychedelics not for healing but for say spiritual development and spiritual exploration.

1:00:36And I think that's legit too. I really do. You know, I would be nervous about somebody who is using psychedelics every month and wondering why. Is there something missing from their lives that they should be attending to? Is that becoming its own problem? But they're, you know, they're very strange substances. They can have many different identities depending on the context in which they're used. So, you know, there is a powerful religious context for most of history. That's how they were used. They were sacraments. They were used to be in touch with the divine. And that's very different than the healing context.

1:01:15And then there are people who take them just for thrills. And, you know, that seems to me, you know, the least interesting. But we use this word recreational use of a drug. what's wrong with recreation? Why did that get such a negative connotation? I still don't think it's, you know, I'm trying not to judge because I'm trying to see what is most beneficial to our health. And so if there's massive benefits to our immediate and long-term health, then I'm all open to exploring that. And I think it's too soon to say. And that's the thing. I grew up... G Thank you. We're rarely taking any drugs. you know um and the belief was the mind we have the power to heal ourselves with our our thoughts our mind and the the body's pharmacy has healing so many healing components and i'm sure as a meditator you've gone through some beautiful visioning and some beautiful spiritual experiences by closing your eyes meditating and breathing intently as well and so my thought is are there ways to do this without recreational drugs, therapeutic drugs, you know, drugs in general to heal versus doing it from inside out?

1:02:35Yeah. So there are, I mean, you know, I mean, there's an interesting question whether a drug produced by the body, like endorphins after you exercise is, you know, superior to a drug that comes from outside. Aldous Huxley wrote about this in Doors of Perception. They're all chemical events, right whatever's happening so endogenous versus exogenous chemicals how significant is that but there are other ways to get there i mean meditators really experienced meditators get into a psychedelic state there are breathing exercises some there's something called holotropic breath work which is a form of breathing based on yogic techniques that i i've done it and will give you a psychedelic experience um not everybody but but a high percentage of people it's kind of uncanny how this works.

1:03:25You are doing something to your blood chemistry, though, when you hyperventilate. That's what's happening. I think either the acidity or alkalinity is increasing as you reduce the carbon dioxide. I don't know the physiology of it. Fasting can get you there. Isolation tanks, for some people, can get you there. Dark spaces, caves. Yeah, if you remove all sensory input. People who go on vision quests and, you know, they're alone in nature for a long time and they're not eating, they will have psychedelic experiences. So, you know, we're wired for these experiences and there are other ways to get there and psychedelics is one way.

1:04:09But I would, you know, I would press against this idea of, you know, toxicity though, because There's not a lot of evidence or addictive potential. They've been shown not to be addictive. There are absolute risks. People at any risk for schizophrenia or personality disorders are not allowed in the current drug trials. And people can have terrifying experiences. And what happens if you have a, you know, maybe you're not, maybe you haven't been clinically diagnosed as bipolar, but you might have some bipolar tendencies. Or maybe you're not diagnosed as narcissistic, but you have narcissistic tendencies or, you know, extreme mood swings or depressive states.

1:04:54People like that, could it get them off the track, so to say? It could. People have had psychotic breaks on LSD trips. I mean, we saw that in the 60s. There were admissions to psychiatric hospitals and things. And it's really hard to come back from that, right? Yeah, although there's some debate over whether these are people who would have eventually had a break. And that it's not like incidents of schizophrenia went up when people started using LSD. Any kind of mental shock can put people over. And LSD is a big shock to the system. So that can definitely happen. And look, people should approach this with great care.

1:05:32It's very consequential. It's momentous to decide, I'm going to have a high-dose psychedelic experience. You should be with someone who knows the territory, who can prepare you properly. Scary things can happen, but if you know how to deal with it, you can navigate those things. And often the results at the end make it worth it. So I'm loathe to recommend anybody do anything, but I also think that people should know how many people are being healed by this. And that the thing we have to keep in mind is that mental health treatment is just not very good in this country. I mean, even with the access issues and insurance and all that, there's that problem.

1:06:20But the problem is, and I've heard this from psychiatrists who I've interviewed, it's like they'll tell you we don't have very good tools. If you compare mental health treatment to any other branch of medicine, oncology, cardiology, infectious disease, they have all prolonged human life and relieved lots of suffering in the last 50 years. You can't say that about mental health treatment. We're kind of where we were. We have SSRIs, which we throw at everything. What are those? There's selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, antidepressants, Paxil. But those antidepressants, do they have any benefit?

1:06:58Because I feel like people who are on antidepressants don't have, like, it doesn't actually work. Or maybe it's like they feel for a few weeks or a month like some benefit, but then it's like you're still depressed. Well, it gets people out of crises very often if someone's, you know, having a suicidal crisis. But the evidence on, they don't work very well. I mean, there's some people they help. when they were approved in the early 80s, late 70s they did two percentage points better than placebo I mean trivial benefit but we didn't have anything else and they got hyped by the industry but it's not healing the root cause it doesn't affect the root cause so it's minimizing some of the effect it's lowering symptoms for some people not for everybody but over time the effect goes down and then you need more and more or you switch to another one The other problems with it is that it decreases your libido.

1:07:52You put on weight, and they're very hard to get off. They're addictive, in effect. So if you want to talk about toxicity to the body, I mean, that's a bigger issue than LSD or psilocybin. Sure. What would you recommend or suggest before people get on some type of antidepressant that they try on, that they experiment with, that they apply for a 30-day window before I say, okay, I'm just going to jump into it? Well, that regime we talked about, you know, eat real food, get half hour of exercise a day, some sort of stress reduction technique, sunlight, and social connection. And the problem with people who are depressed is they tend to lose their social connections.

1:08:37They don't have the connections. Yeah. They're often lonely. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's the first line of defense. And, you know, right now it's important to understand, too, that even though psilocybin is being trialed, doing drug trials for depression, it hasn't been approved yet. So it's still illegal. Right. And that's something you have to take into account. Gotcha. You have to work with someone underground. And that has its own set of risks. Sure. You know, speaking of people feeling lonely, people, it seems like there's more social anxiety and loneliness than ever, even though they're more connected or seemingly false connected with social media.

1:09:15what would you suggest for people to overcome the feeling of loneliness? Well, it takes us back to food, meals, the institution of meals. Eat with other people. Don't eat alone. Find somebody, invite someone out to have a meal with, or cook and invite people into your home. So much happens at the table that isn't about fueling your body. And that there is a kind of connection that happens when we eat together that's really wonderful. It's deeper than a lot of other connections we have. And when we share something, when we share food out of the same common dish, we're connecting. That's a connection.

1:09:55Sharing food is a very powerful bond between people. It has been for like thousands of years. And we learn things about other people. Why do world leaders always have banquets, right? It's because going back a thousand years, it's a time where, you know, you don't shoot someone over a banquet table. You know, you put down your arms and you pick up your fork and knife. You connect. You connect. And I just think the meal is one of the great institutions. And it helps us deal not only with healthier eating because you're not going to eat junk food. You're not going to eat a microwavable food in front of someone else.

1:10:34You're going to cook something or order in and eat the same thing. and that sharing puts us on the same mental wavelength. It's almost like in training ourselves to someone else that we're eating the same thing together. And so I think putting yourself, you know, way too many of us eat alone now. And I think it's really destructive to eat alone. When you eat alone, you eat mindlessly. You're in front of the TV or you're reading something and you just don't know what you're doing. I mean, think about, you know, you're in front of the TV with a bag of potato chips. It's like you don't even realize you've eaten a bag.

1:11:10It's just so mindless. Also, manners automatically helps people control their appetites. People don't want to act like pigs at a table. Yeah. Whereas when you eat alone, you do act like a pig. So getting away from solitary eating. It crumbs all over your belly. You're just like, ah, just eating it. Yeah. Exactly. You know, in this class I did for Masterclass, we're looking at not just the health effects of food, although those are very important, but there are all these other effects. And that there are ways to align your eating with your values. And we all have different values. And some people, food is just going to be about health.

1:11:53But for other people, it's about their relationship to nature, for example. You know, are they eating organically or sustainably? Is that what matters to them? And for others, it's about ethics. Is this a way, do I feel comfortable eating animals or these animals? So there are moral and ethical questions that come. So much happens at the table. And so where I came out thinking about this and preparing the class is there's no one right way to eat. there's probably a right way to eat if health is your only concern but if you're thinking about these other things and eating for pleasure is a perfectly legitimate reason it argues for slightly different kinds of food sure how does someone come up with their eating values well that's a process of kind of self-inquiry i mean and we go through that in the class about like So what really matters to you when you think about food?

1:12:55Are you someone who thinks a lot about nature and climate change? There's a way to eat if you really want to make your contribution to reduce climate change. There are foods that have a big climate footprint and foods that don't. Beef is, of course, the worst offender. And milk, that's a huge part of your climate footprint if you're a beef eater. but maybe you're concerned about the health of the soil and and and what about social justice the health of the workers in the food system that argues for slightly different choices too what's great about food though is that we're not stuck with one choice we now we're very lucky because there are now you know there's organic food there's conventional food there's what's called regenerative food grown on very healthy soils that we can we have an opportunity to express our values by our food choices.

1:13:50That's a great vote to have. We're really lucky to have that vote because there are many parts of life we don't have that vote to make. Right. What are your food values? Well, I think a lot about the environment. I started out as a writer writing about nature and gardening. And I'm very concerned about climate change. And I don't know how you can not be, but a lot of us are not. And so that I think a lot about the environmental impact of what I eat. So I don't eat beef. I eat very little meat. I mostly eat fish. And I'm careful about that too, because some fish is, you know, really unsustainably produced.

1:14:31You know, some farm salmon is just horrible the way it's produced, not just for the fish, but for the environment with lots of antibiotics. And I will choose organic when I'm buying plant foods. Organic is not a perfect label, but it's one of the only labels that's monitored by the government. And so you know that if you buy organic food, it has not been grown with synthetic pesticides. I'm particularly insistent on buying organic wheat products, whether that's pasta or bread. The reason being that it's become common practice in America to spray wheat fields with glyphosate, which is an herbicide that has been linked to lymphoma.

1:15:13The farmers do it. It's not allowed in Europe. Farmers do it for the express purpose. They spray it on the wheat fields right before harvest to kill the wheat because the wheat has to be dry before you can harvest it. So it speeds up that process. It's a really irresponsible use of a pesticide. Why are there so many things in the American food system that don't happen in Europe that are legal in other countries? Yeah. Hormones in beef, for example. I mean, every non-organic beef animal gets a hormone implant in its neck. And then we wonder why girls are going through puberty early. I mean, we are exposing ourselves to lots of hormones through our meat.

1:15:57And that's not allowed in Europe either. Europe has tougher environmental rules, especially around food and cosmetics, believe it or not. There are chemicals in our cosmetics that you can't put in European cosmetics. Wow. It's the power of the American food industry. It is dominant. They control Congress. They control the agricultural committees. So there have been efforts to ban glyphosate. There have been efforts to get hormones out of beef. and the industry has stopped it. And the reason for that is we've allowed these industries to get so powerful and monopolistic that we had a great example during the pandemic when there were outbreaks of COVID in the meat plants in the High Plains, Tyson's meat plants.

1:16:51The local public health authorities, so many people were dying on those lines and they were bringing COVID into their communities. The local health authorities wanted to close down the lines for two weeks and just quiet. This is right at the beginning of the pandemic. John Tyson, the president of Tyson, takes out an ad, a full-page ad in the New York Times. Dear Mr. President, you need to invoke the Defense Production Act, which is designed to get companies to do things they don't want to do to help the war effort. We want you to invoke the Defense Production Act to force our workers back on the line.

1:17:25Come on. And within days, President Trump signed an executive order opening up the Tyson production lines. So when a company can force a president to do its bidding, you know an industry's gotten too powerful. Wow. Yeah. This is crazy. What is the things that you've seen 10 years ago in the nutritional food world that people thought was the way? Science, you know, society thought this was the way that we now have new evidence and new science showing that that's not the way and there's something different that is the way. Is there anything that's changed in the last 10 or 20 years? The biggest thing is something we talked about right at the beginning is ultra-processed food.

1:18:18And we didn't, you know, we'd heard for years that junk food was bad for us. And we thought the reason was there was too much sugar, too much fat, too much salt. It turns out it's not about the nutrients. It's about the processing itself and all the chemicals that are used. And this was, and that this is what's making us fat. The processing itself, not the actual sugar. There was a really cool experiment done at the National Institute of Health. by a scientist who was very skeptical of this theory that processed food was uniquely bad. And he was a great believer that, no, if you get the nutrients right, you'll be healthy.

1:18:53He got a group together. They lived in a facility. So he fed them for 30 days and divided them into two groups, control and not, and created two meals for every meal. One was substantially whole foods. The other was substantially ultra-processed food, like 80 % ultra-processed food, matched for calories, matched for protein, salt, sugar, everything. And people in each group said, eat as much as you want, or as little as you want, up to you. No control on caloric intake. Consumption, yeah. The people in the group with the ultra-processed food ate 500 more calories a day. so the way you prepare the food dictates how much you're going to eat and um and that blew his mind and he came around to the thesis that there is we don't know exactly what it is but there's something uniquely bad about that kind of food does it not make you feel full or does it make you still hungry or craving it could be that because it has so little fiber it doesn't fill you up in the same way it could be the fact that it's absorbed really quickly in the body and not going through this long microbiome processing in your body.

1:20:12I mean, when you process food, you're essentially externalizing digestion. In other words, instead of eating things like plants or even real meat that hasn't been overly processed or turned into hamburger, your body has to work hard to break it down. You burn calories. Digesting is burning calories. Yeah. But as soon as you start doing this high-level processing and removing the fiber, you're creating food that your body can be very lazy about digesting. And so it's absorbed through the small intestine rather than the large intestine. And that may explain it. It could also just be the science, this idea of lying to the body about what you're getting, fooling the body.

1:20:55And it could be other effects in the microbiome. There's some evidence that emulsifiers, which we use to keep food, basically keep the oils in the waters from separating in processed food. Processed food would look even uglier than it does if not for these chemicals. Emulsifiers have damaged the lining of the gut and allow for large particles to get into the bloodstream, which leads to an immune reaction. So it may be that processed food inflames our bodies in ways that are destructive. So the science is still out on the cause, but we know the effect. The effect is you will eat a lot more food if you're eating ultra-processed food, and you will increase your risk of all sorts of chronic diseases.

1:21:39That's really clear. Where do you feel like in 10, 15 years will be the new science that comes out? Because it seems like there's always something new being discovered or revealed. Where do you see the nutritional health world moving into in the next 10, 15 years of these other discoveries? I think we will continue to accumulate evidence that it's really simple. Eat food, not too much, mostly plants. I think that's going to hold up. I'll put money down on that. Mostly means, doesn't mean no meat, means some meat. That word, that adverb pissed off everybody because the vegetarians are like, why don't you go all the way and just say, eat plants?

1:22:25And the meat eaters were like, why don't you talk about meat? No, mostly, let's be reasonable about that. I don't, I think we are going to learn that a traditional diet of real food is the best way to eat. And it's going to be really simple. And I think we have overcomplicated food and we have, and there's so many reasons to do it, right? I mean, you know, scientists want funding companies want to have a health claim uh they need to churn you know there are 14 000 new food products every year and a lot of them carry health claims isn't it amazing 14 000 new food products 14 000 new food products every year and most of them are like ridiculous extensions of something we have you know it's like an oreo in the shape of a straw you know this is crazy that's innovation and there's always an investor who wants to make money of return yeah on creating this product or this business or this company.

1:23:22And so they want - And the other economic incentive is that it's not profitable selling simple food that comes off the farm. You make more money processing the food, the more value added. Packaging it, yes. It's the package, it's the health claim, but it's also the tricking it up and giving it new flavors and new colors. I mean, think about how many different - Check out next time you're in the supermarket, how many Pop-Tarts there are, and Pop-Tart-like products. It's just brand extension. So this is capitalism. Capitalism, you know, depends on novelty. The idea that you're going to eat simple foods that you prepare yourself, who makes money on that?

1:24:01I don't know. The egg business has got to be making money, right? I don't know, like eggs and, you know, apples are making business, but it's not as much, though. To give you an example, I think it's 14 cents of your food dollar goes back to the farmer. It's all the people in the middle who make the money. And farmers will tell you this, or people in the food industry, I'm sorry, not farmers, will tell you that if you want to make money in food, it's not from growing it. It's from processing it. Wow. So we have a strong incentive to process food as much as possible. Plus you get something you can put a brand name on, right?

1:24:36What? You have IP. You have all this value added, and the farmers get screwed. Crazy. Now, what is the main, the master class that you have, what is the main benefit within the master class that people will get out of that when they go through it? Well, my hope is, I mean, the reason I did it, I had a couple of reasons I wanted to do it. One was, one of the great things about master class is you get a lot of time. It's like a, I forget how long it is, but it's a two-and-a-half or three-hour class. So you can really go deep. Yes. And you don't always get to do that writing articles. So I really appreciated that.

1:25:16And the production values are amazing. I've seen some of the clips. It looks amazing. Well, they send a crew of like 60 people. I know. It's crazy, right? It's like a full-world production. Yeah, it is. And it looks like it. They make you look great. but I just I'm hyper aware because I get asked questions I do a lot of public speaking of how confused people are about food and they'll say to me so should I buy the organic or the conventional or or the regenerative or the humane and you know there are all these labels in the store and and we're we're we're tying ourselves up in knots about what should be a very simple transaction.

1:25:56And, you know, for most of human history, people have like known what to eat. They learn from their parents and learn from what was available. They didn't have to run all these complex algorithms to figure out what a product to buy. So I saw this as an effort to cut through a lot of nonsense about food, whether it's coming from the nutritionists or the marketers. and just like, let's look at this. Let's take a fresh look. Let's figure out what you care about because I'm not going to tell you how to eat. It's not, it doesn't have that kind of message. My message really is, tell me what you care about and I'll tell you what to eat.

1:26:36And so we go through the various, you know, different motives. Getting clear of your food values, getting them, you know. Yeah, figure out what your food values are and then here's how you might align them with what you're actually eating. Right. And so I'm hoping it'll relax people about food. I want people to come out of it like with their stress level around, when they go to the supermarket down. I don't want them to have to read labels and do this all the time. So, yeah, you talk a lot about intentional eating. You know, it's not just about mindless eating, but being very intentional about these food rules, these values that we create together.

1:27:13And I really love the idea of getting back to the dinner table or getting back to the communion table with at least one person so that we can connect, we can slow it down, we can have more fulfilling conversations, feel more fulfilled spiritually and emotionally, but also nutritionally fulfilled in that process. Yeah. And I think that, you know, we've reduced food to this transaction between us and this stuff. But in fact, food is not a thing. It's a set of relationships. Food connects you to other people. as it has for all of human history. It's a communal act. But it also connects you to nature, right?

1:27:52It's your most important connection to the natural world. You affect nature more through your eating than anything else you do. If you think about what agriculture does to nature, right? It's the way we change the landscape more than anything else. It's the way we change the composition of species on the planet. The reason there are, you know, 50 million head of cattle in the U.S. and only 5 ,000 wolves, it's because we like one and we don't like the other or the other is a threat to the one we like. And we affect the atmosphere. You know, greenhouse gas production from the food system is about 33%.

1:28:26Really? Yeah. So there's a lot at stake when you sit down to eat. But I want that to feel empowering, that you can actually vote. It's not a burden. Right. It's an opportunity. Right. So that's what I want to inspire people with, to take their food choices as an opportunity to express their values. Wow. They can go to masterclass.com and check that out. If they search your name, they can get that at masterclass.com. You've also got a number of, what are you at, seven, eight New York Times bestsellers now? What are you at, 12 or something like that? Something crazy. How to Change Your Mind has been a phenomenon that's gone all over the world, talking about the psychedelics and the studies that you've done there.

1:29:08But the recent book is more about your mind on plants. This is Your Mind on Plants, where I look at three different psychoactives, one of which we're all involved with caffeine almost all of us and people don't think about that as a drug but it is a drug and and i think it's a very good drug in many ways it's had a lot of positive effects for people although people like all drugs people can get in trouble on that you talk about bringing chemicals into our body we're doing it all the time all the time and um and so so i look at caffeine i look at opium you know we have such a big problem around opiates now And I look at mescaline, which is a psychedelic that you don't hear as much about, but it's a really interesting substance that Native Americans have been using to heal themselves for a very long time.

1:29:52Wow. What is the pros and cons of coffee that you talk about, that you've researched, that can truly benefit current health, lifespans, cognitive health? And also, what are the cons of caffeine or coffee? Yeah. So caffeine is a powerful drug. I don't think people realize it, but most of us have an addiction to it. And I got off caffeine for three months. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. No caffeine, no chocolate, no tea, no coffee. And I didn't feel myself for that whole time. You know, I got through the withdrawal, which only took a couple days. You didn't feel grounded or you didn't feel connected to yourself?

1:30:33I felt like I was someone else. Really? and it made me realize that being caffeinated was my default state it's like that was my normal and I've been drinking coffee since I was 10 I started early so by like 10 years right 10 20 years now a lot more than that like 50 years 50 years and drinking coffee yeah since you were 10 how did you start at 10 you know I started like 35 you know yeah I know I started early everybody said it would stunt my growth it apparently didn't at all maybe I would have been seven foot without it. So I felt, you know, it was hard to do. I felt like I had acquired attention deficit disorder.

1:31:14I normally have very good focus. I can concentrate and like block things out. You need to, to write. I couldn't write. Without the coffee. Without the coffee. I just was, I found things came in from the periphery, you know, I got easily distracted. did. And that's why we take amphetamines to deal with that. They give us, like caffeine, stimulants give us a focus. And I needed it. So it was really hard. And the first cup after three months. I was amazed. It was incredible. It was delicious. It was the best. It may have been the best drug experience I've ever had. Wow. Yeah. I was euphoric. So you want to know benefits?

1:31:56Yeah. Yeah. So I looked into this. There are a lot of health benefits to caffeine. Caffeine or coffee. Yes. It's coffee and tea have the health benefits. It may not be the caffeine. And the reason is that coffee and tea, believe it or not, are the biggest source of antioxidants in the American diet. It's pathetic, actually, but it's true. And so we don't know. Caffeine, we do know, improves performance. Athletes will tell you that on test taking, it improves performance. If you study for a test and drink caffeine after that, after you've studied, you will remember the material and do better on the test.

1:32:37So it really does enhance mental function. It has some physical benefits too. It reduces risk of certain kinds of cancers. It reduces risk of cardiovascular disease, Parkinson's disease, and reduces risk of dementia. So it has a lot of benefits. The negatives are if it makes you really jumpy. You know, some people react badly to it or drink too much. It reduces risk of suicide and depression up to seven or eight cups. If you're drinking seven or eight cups a day, your risk of suicide and depression go way up. Seven cups a day is a lot. Yeah, but people do. I know people who like are sipping it all day long.

1:33:25That's too much though, right? Seven cups a day, come on. The big negative on caffeine is it does interfere with good sleep. Even if you stop drinking it at noon, which is my practice, a quarter of the caffeine in your body is still circulating at midnight. It lasts in your body a long time. So when should you stop coffee by? Well, at least by noon, but hopefully earlier. 10 a.m. maybe, yeah. Yeah, if you can. I mean, I go to noon because I sip it while I'm writing in the morning. What happens with even people who can fall asleep, and there are people who can have an espresso at night and fall asleep, it's changing the quality of their sleep.

1:34:05They're losing what's called slow wave sleep. You know, there's REM sleep, which is when you dream, but there's a kind of very deep sleep called slow wave sleep, which is very important for your health. And caffeine reduces the amount of it you have. So I interviewed a bunch of sleep experts for the chapter on caffeine and none of them use caffeine. Was it Michael Walker? Matthew Walker. Yeah. I don't know if he does now, but he, Yeah, and he did a master class, actually, about sleep that's definitely worth checking out. And he's had no caffeine. Yeah, and he's, like, against caffeine. But he's softened a little bit.

1:34:41Kuberman talks about he has a cup of coffee, I think, early in the morning. But he's like, try to finish it as soon as you can, earlier in the day. Yeah. Every day when you wake up, you are undergoing withdrawal. That's why you crave coffee. You know, the people who say, I can't talk to you, so I'll have a cup of coffee. The reason is that for most of us, we're drinking coffee to head off those withdrawal effects. The caffeine just lasts long enough during the night that you don't wake up to want coffee. But as soon as you get up in the morning, you want it. So, you know, we are addicted. But addiction, you know, if you have a steady legal supply, is not a terrible thing.

1:35:21Sure, sure. Yeah, not too much of it. This is amazing. You've got a, you know, your website has so much research and articles and information. Well, I've posted every article I've ever written there. Yeah. And it's available for free to anybody who wants. And that's michaelpollen.com. michaelpollen.com. So make sure, you know, make sure you go sign up for your newsletter and be subscribed to everything you have there. What's the social media place you spend time on the most? Is there a platform of choice? I use Twitter. Okay. I use Instagram, but just kind of personal way. I just post pictures I like that I've taken.

1:35:56Twitter's more the research and the information you have. Twitter's very useful for journalists. I mean, and so I'll, if I read something interesting, and it could be about health, it could be about food, it could be about psychedelics, I'll post it. You know, sometimes without comment, just, hey, you should read this. Check it out, yeah. Yeah, so I use it that way. I don't hold forth. I don't offer a lot of opinions. But I just find it's a great way to share information. Wow. What are you most excited about in your life right now? What am I most excited? Well, it's spring and we're about to start gardening.

1:36:28I'm a passionate gardener and, you know, we've had so much rain in California. So much. Today it's raining, you know. It's insane. And the earth has been saturated and you can't, you don't want to mess with the earth when it's that wet. It's bad for it. So I'm really looking forward to starting a plant and get my garden going. I grow vegetables and flowers and various psychoactives. That's cool. That's exciting. Yeah. MichaelPollen.com, TheMasterClass.com, check you out there. The books, they can get it all at your website as well for the books. And again, you've got a number of New York Times bestsellers, so get multiple books if you want to dive in more.

1:37:08This is a couple questions that I have left. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called The Three Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You've written a lot. You've researched a lot. You've had a ton of experiences. and imagine you get to live as long as you want, but eventually it's your last day. It's not that long, drawn-out death. It's a quick, healthy, you know, quick, painless death. And imagine you continue to live your life the way you want and achieving your dreams and connecting to people you care about and healthy, but it's the last day. For whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you.

1:37:48Every article, every book, every message, you know, the master class is gone. You know, everything has to go to some other place when you pass on. So for whatever reason, we don't have access to your content, your information, your wisdom. But you get to leave behind three final truths, three lessons from all of your experiences that you've learned that you would leave behind as kind of like, here are these wisdom, this wisdom. What would be those three truths for you to leave behind? Yikes. I told you I didn't like to hear questions in advance I've got to put you on the spot well the first one would be to honor the plants my whole career I have been learning from plants about how to eat about the mind it's amazing what they have to teach us and you know they don't speak loudly but if you listen and you're curious so honor the plants that could mean growing them certainly mean eating them.

1:38:53This is a cliche. People often say that. No one goes to their deathbeds thinking, God, I wish I'd spend more time at work. So honor your family, your loved ones, your sisters. I don't have brothers. Although I have brothers-in-law. Your partner, your child. I think that we get caught up in things and those are the relationships that matter at the end and the other stuff doesn't.

1:39:28Third truth I think one of the biggest problems we have is fear. I think we are closed off because we're afraid. We're afraid of trying new things we're afraid of saying things we're afraid of exposing our weakness and um overcoming fear yeah i would say that's so important my father who was a um a very wise person or he got wise he wasn't always um um he had a he was a lawyer but he hated the law but he liked helping people and he had a he had a clientele of people your age uh who he would help with their money issues but their money issues were always really family issues or relate you know or self worth issues and all these kind of questions and he would always say you know your biggest problem is between your ears he would say and it's your fear and he was very good at getting people to like have faith in themselves make the big move change your career quit that job buy that house marry that person and he was a kind of just do it person and it usually worked out and people People spend a long time procrastinating because they're afraid of change.

1:40:42And so embracing change and overcoming fear, I would put number three. I love those. I don't know about the order. I haven't thought about the order, but those are the three that came to me. Honor plants, honor your family, overcome your fears. I love it. I'm a big believer that self-doubt is the killer of all dreams. We can have all the talent, but if we doubt ourselves, we're not going to act courageously. We're not going to take the risks. We're not going to say what we need to say like you said. So we've got to learn what are those fears that cause us to doubt ourselves. Yeah, self-doubt is very much the root of fear.

1:41:10Before I ask the final question, I would acknowledge you, Michael, for your continuous journey to seeking wisdom, truth, knowledge, lessons to help people. You know, you've been on this journey for a long time, and you keep showing up. You keep showing up in service to the process, to the journey of discovery, and to sharing the process with us so that we can try to understand this world in a more harmonious, integrous way. So I really acknowledge you for your humility, your service, your commitment to being of service with your mission. It's really inspiring. My final question for you is what's your definition of greatness?

1:41:52Oh, I should have seen that coming. I think you've just given it. I think it is your willingness to give it away, to help other people, to help people transform their lives. I think transformation is like so key and we get so stuck. So for me, you know, my work, I didn't set out with a mission to like heal people or to change their minds. I set out with a mission to follow my curiosity. And then I found stuff that, oh, people need to know about this. This is not what they thought. And that's exciting to me when I find that out. When I, you know, spent a year studying nutrition and realized, oh, I can, all you need are these seven words.

1:42:38And I just wanted to give them to everybody. so I think that idea of putting your work in the service of other people is very powerful to me it makes me feel like I'm not being self-indulgent when I'm sitting there alone writing all day long then maybe it will have an effect on the world I feel very lucky that I've had two phases in my my writing life where i produced books that changed the conversation i you know if you do that once in a lifetime you feel pretty good but this happened with food and it's happening now with psychedelics and um i don't know what the next one will be but um and i don't know why that is um because i'm saying things that other people know um and and that in some ways are pretty obvious when it comes to food, but sometimes the obvious is very powerful.

1:44:00us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.