Fear, Shame, and the Fight to Get Out of Your Own Way | Joel Kinnaman

32:28Before the scene.

32:28Lewis Howes:Yeah. And the memory is like, it's not so important, like how long I work, but it's that I work, sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep. Cause it's like in the sleep that the memorization happens. So, so I have to have three, minimum three. So I'm always like at least three nights ahead on everything that I'm working on. But I like to be five nights ahead cause that's when it's like really solid. and for me it's like the preparation the more the more prepared I am the deeper in my bones the text is the more freedom I have to improvise and play with it and like to go away from the text because like if you're if you're if you're really prepared then you really know the scene and you know the other person's lines and so then if you start improvising or something happens like a mistake someone stumbles and you and and roll with the scene and then you can roll with it and then because you know the scene it's going to be much easier to find a creative way of using it and then getting back into the scene so you can actually use it and you actually be able to use that little moment of reality that happened you know that can like infuse a scene with life that just oh didn't feel like it was rehearsed at all right right right um so like all that is like preparation it gives you the freedom and the looseness if you're trying to remember your line or thinking to remember your line in any way then there's a little tenseness that builds up you know there's a little tension in you that takes away from the presence and the relaxation and i think everyone you know even if you're playing like a character that's tense there's a way to be tense but loose you know and i think and and when i when i watch things you really want to see someone as loose and you probably feel even more pressure because you've got whatever 50 people counting on you for that those hours that day in production that if you don't remember your lines you might have more stress on yourself think i don't want to mess this up to waste the time and yeah and then it just becomes a like getting one that works instead of having five great options you know and uh and it's also like when you're leading a show you know you you set the you set the tone and you want to lead by example when did you get kind of your first big break or the first few breaks where you're like oh maybe i can do this and actually make a full-time living not just be considered an actor in sweden but really make an abundant life for myself yeah Yeah.

35:00Well, after that thing that happened in school and my first big job that I got, my first job out of school was would have been like a nerve wracking thing for anyone. It was one of Sweden's great, maybe greatest playwrights. He had just taken the helm of a new national theater, the National Theater of Gothenburg. and his opening statement, you know, his opening play, he had done a complete new rendition of Crime and Punishment.

35:31Lewis Howes:Okay. And then he asked me to do Raskolnikov, which is incredibly demanding and incredible role. And it ended up being, you know, three hours and 45 minutes. And I was on stage for the entirety of it. So as like an opening of a new national theater with that kind of, it was like all, as big as a play can get in Sweden but after my monologue like it felt like a easy like cakewalk really yeah I have other actors here like you know to talk to and it not I shouldn't exaggerate that like a cakewalk but it was like it was manageable like the nerves were manageable and And I was like more just like enjoying it.

36:17I'd like broken through that sort of kind of like shimmer of like fear and anxiety that I was like living in. And before that, I broke through like every now and then and like, oh, I felt the light and the sun on my face. And now I like kind of broken through and I was really like enjoying my work and enjoying it, like living in it, being there.

36:42Lewis Howes:and i could like focus on the actual work what was the psychology then that broke the the throw up nerves because you said like later i found out the psychology of what that was yeah it was actually like it was with the same director so so he was working he he um after the own projects that we did um we were allowed to go out to a theater and do six months at a theater and usually you'd get like these small parts uh you know you'd come in and say the king is dead and then you walk out you know it was like the the semester where you got to sort of practice of being in a real theater but very often the students didn't get like substantial work yeah he had this play where the lead actor had gotten sick and had to and had to bail so and they it was right before like the week before opening he had to like stop he had an issue with his brain it was tragic he recovered later and he's doing great so they were like in this like limbo they needed a replacement but that was the lead role and so i i went to gothenberg and and like and he auditioned me for it and uh and it was like cold read but i was like reading it and and i felt like i connected with with the material i was playing a 12 year old and i like even at the cold read i like found like in me a little bit how to be a kid in my body and uh and so so then i i got that i got the gig and um and then it was a it was supposed to be after the summer i had like four weeks and then after the summer a three-day rehearsal and then they said you know and it's fine if you know for the first couple of weeks you know like if you have the script with you you're more there like sort of as a placeholder to make it flow you know because we don't have proper rehearsal time for you but this would be for a live audience.

38:31Yeah.

38:31Lewis Howes:They're saying you can have the script with a live audience. Yeah, it was like, I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. But I mean, I was never going to do that. So I had like a month. So I learned the whole thing. And I was, so I showed up at the first rehearsal. No script. No, no, no. And it was a really good vibe, you know, with everyone was very happy. Yeah. and i think that because i was like the replacement that nobody had any expectation on and then exceeded everyone's expectation i didn't have any nerves like the pressure was kind of off of me and because i'd also prepared so hard and then i had this experience of like so this like sort of this thing of like preparation is going to be my salvation uh had sort of like that had like sort of sunk in so i think i still have that like i'm you know and i don't always live up to it to enough for myself anymore but there's something with you know like i love to come and like show the people i'm working with what i've been cooking up you know and and that sort of makes it more fun than nervousness yeah you know but that so that that that that was the play that like after that experience then the throwing up was gone i haven't done it since wow that's great until today now you're starting to like build a name i'm assuming in sweden now here's this college kid who's now crushed this you know a new theater thing and yeah i'm assuming you got some other gigs after that but when did you finally feel like oh i'm actually starting to make this thing work financially and oh hollywood's calling and you know other things are happening yeah i had a like a crazy period after I, I, I was doing this play and it got a lot of attention and then I got my first lead role in a, in a film at the same time, but it was shooting in Stockholm and I was doing this play in Gothenburg and, and it was the lead in both and exactly the same time.

40:39But, uh, but for some reason, the, the film agreed to try to like figure out the schedule. And, uh, so the way that we did it was we, I shot, in Stockholm during the nights and then I would sleep on the train and then do the play next day daytime so I would go back and forth and then you'd drive back at night after the party I had a couple of weeks where I slept eight hours per week it's like but I mean I would never

41:10Lewis Howes:do that again I I almost lost my mind you're 24 you're free I can do anything yeah I don't know like it was like hormones yeah and it was also there was you know i was playing raskolnikov too who's also like he's schizophrenic um oh my god like i mean that's an interpretation of raskolnikov but raskol in uh in in russian means divided and uh so that's how i interpret him that he had like schizophrenia and the way that i was playing it in the in the theater was that because i really like the idea of like kind of when you're when you're playing theater you know there's a fourth wall right and you but you sort of ignore everything that happens in the audience so it's the fourth wall there but uh there's something that is fake about that right it's like because you're in the same room and one of the one of the beautiful things about doing theater is that you're in the same room and then of course there's theater where you break the fourth wall and you're like you take in the audience and all that but then that can kind of pull you out of the story too so but i found this way because we were playing this uh we did we had a bunch of like daytime shows where we would play for like high school students you know some of them they were like on their phones and you know they didn't ask to come there they're like three hours of dostoevsky it's not what they asked for and uh so what i would do is like because i was like sort of hearing voices like in the character distracting also like if i heard someone like talking in the audience i would be in a scene and i was we rehearsed for four months i was like i was so I was so deep in it I like I knew the material and the text so well I had such confidence in the material so I could be like in the middle of a monologue and then I'd hear like some kids talking I'd be like what what did you say you know and then I'd walk up to them and I was like what what and then and then and then and then they'd be quiet and and I'd be like and I would play it as if it was like my voices in my head um and then and then it gets everyone's attention and also then all the kids stop talking because like they don't want to be called out you know And then I would just be able to fold back into the monologue or the conversation.

43:14But then when I was doing this back and forth and not sleeping. He really became schizophrenic. My patience was getting a little bit low. And sometimes these kids were annoying and they'd be like, so I'd be like, what? And then they'd keep talking. I'd be like, shut up, shut up, shut up. And I'd go up and almost confront them. but in my mind I was doing it like I'm confronting my inner demons. But, you know, sometimes I was wearing an axe. I was not wearing, I was holding an axe in my hand. And then I would be standing and there was these kids that were talking and at first they were laughing.

43:51And I'm like, you think that's funny? I'm going to kill you. And I was standing with an axe. And after we had a couple of crisis meetings within the theater after And they were like, Joel, you cannot threaten the children in the audience. You cannot tell them that you're going to kill them. That is unacceptable. This is like... You're like, I'm an actor. I think I need to sleep. I think I need to sleep. I mean, I thought it was great because it was like... I thought I never like broke character. I was always... But yeah, it was that some kids were a little traumatized, I think. And then when the play was done, then I ended up doing six feature films.

44:33Holy cow. in 16 months. And in Sweden, we do like 20 films a year in the whole. So I was like really, I was just like working so much. For me, success prior to that looked like, you know, working in theater and then occasionally like getting a job in front of the camera. That's like, that was success. And then without really having thought much about it, I'd exceeded my own expectations like by a long shot within a year. So I think that's when I was like, huh, you know, maybe I could do something else.

45:11Lewis Howes:You know, was Hollywood or like the big screen in L.A. ever an idea or a dream? Or was it more like I just want to be in Sweden. I want to crush it here and make money and be respected. It was never like a real. It wasn't a thing, you know, because for me, it was like not being a loser was like that was like the first. that was the first dream and then it was like okay like i'm an actor like that that was such a victory so then it was like being a working actor like that's victory um being able to like because also a lot of actors that even they go they go through the artist tax of like getting into the national theater school a couple years later they're like really struggling um so it's not like it's uh guaranteed thing no so so for me like to be someone that like gets to work and like I'm at in the theater and every now and then I get to do like a part in a TV series or part in a movie and then it was like I smashed that um without like really the the things were happening without me like sort of setting the goal for it it was more like I I was like winning against my own demons and then all this other stuff kind of just came and then they were casting for Thor, like the first Thor movie, right in the beginning of the first wave of Marvel movies.

46:32And, uh, what was this? What year is this? 2008. Okay. Something like that. Yeah. And then of course they were looking in the Scandinavian countries. He's a, you know, he's a Norse God.

46:43Lewis Howes:So you're around what? 30 now, 28, 30, 31, 28, 28, 29. And then I got this from my Swedish agent they were like this is like they want you to put yourself on tape I was like what's that like never heard of that no like boot me put put myself on the tape they're like a record I was like with the video cameras I got to record okay okay so I did it and then I got this tag and I think Kenneth Branagh was the director of it had like a little Shakespearean feel to it and I'd never really played in english but my father was american so i was like loose with english was an emotional language for me you know a lot of people that learn a second language it's hard to be like to express your emotions or own it yeah yeah but for me that was never the case with english since i grew up speaking with my dad and then you know i put myself on tape for this and i had a friend like film it it was like all dark and like living room um my old studio apartment on the south side and uh and we sent it in and uh and then i didn't think much more about it kind of it was like a novel exercise but i didn't you know pay much mind to it but i felt like i kind of put kind of put my my stink on that one yeah i crushed that one yeah and uh i had like a tear coming down it was like it's not too shabby yeah you know well i sent it off but didn't think think much more about it and then my my one of my sisters she was like hey it was two weeks later she was like hey there's like a picture of you in the guardian i was like the guardian what's the guardian she's like the british newspaper i was like what for what she's like it says something about thor it's like thor but they're they're posting pictures of people that like send in tapes yeah like what's going on it's like strange and then and then she sent me the article and it was like oh the four like it's now down to like four people to play thor and you didn't even know i hadn't heard anything so i was like what that's crazy so i was like um so it was like me uh like chris hemsworth and i think tom hiddleston and then some other guy i was like oh that's so weird like uh your agent didn't tell you yeah no no so then i called them i was like hey they were like yeah we heard something about that i was like so what does this mean and uh and then and and i was still um oh that's right i was still shooting um the the movie and uh and uh i was doing another movie right i was shooting another movie and i was doing a new run of the play um so i was like i didn't have a day off in the upcoming two months it was like i was it was right i was doing easy money that's right that's what it was i was shooting easy money and uh and and then we done we started up a new run of crime and punishment so it was like it was all again one of these schedules where i was like working every day for for two months and they were like asking me to come to to uh new york to do like a screen test with natalie portman and then i couldn't do that really sent in another tape and uh and uh yeah i didn't get it but uh but then that's when that like oh maybe this isn't so hard maybe it's not that far away and then um and then my manager shelly who i still work with uh she came to sweden and sat down and had a meeting with me and was like i really think you should come over here and um and then i was like yeah i'm open to that and then a few months later i decided to like give it a shot and then i moved over really um so that's when you moved to LA.

50:26I moved to LA.

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51:09Lewis Howes:Isn't that why we work so hard? To have some fun with our money? Like treating yourself to something special or spontaneously doing something extra for a loved one. So use Empower and get good at money so you can be a little bad. Join their 19 million customers today at Empower.com. Not an Empower client, paid or sponsored. And now when you move there, are you thinking, okay, she's going to put me out on auditions or I want to meet people or what's the mindset? Yeah. So I did a couple of more like self-tapes. I did like a self-tape for Mad Max and was like apparently like in the mix for that as well so I was like I think this is gonna be pretty easy you know yeah I was like I think I got this uh and um and then when then I came to the I came to to LA and and I got like set up with an agent so I kind of came I got like a whole setup right away which which is like makes it so much easier and you're like yeah yeah you You have a team.

52:10I have friends who like come over that didn't quite make it in Sweden. And then they come to LA and try to, I'm like, I think you should like focus on Sweden first and then like try to be a big fish in a small pond first. And then, but then I really struggled.

52:26Lewis Howes:Really? Yeah. I mean, for me, it was, that's how I felt. And I think it was like four or five months. I didn't get anything. And for me, that was like the most rejection I had ever gotten in the acting. Cause I was doing auditions like weekly. Getting it. Nothing, getting nothing. I mean, back in Sweden, you were doing work constantly. Yeah. Yeah. And sort of like blowing up there. When I'd moved to the US, then all of a sudden I became, all the stuff that I'd done came out in Sweden while I was in the US. And then I became really famous in Sweden. Really? Really famous. But I was in the US. So I was like - No one knew who you were.

53:01Yeah. Still here. I was like looking at this like Facebook page, like half a million? And it wasn't even mine. It was like someone else - Yeah, exactly. It was a weird experience.

53:12Lewis Howes:You have all this success in your home country. You're here for five months. And then I was just like bombing on every... Really? You know, I just couldn't even get a call back. When did the opportunity finally break for you then? And then, and it was actually, I went home to Sweden for Christmas break. I had this movie, like Easy Money come out that became like a big hit in Sweden. and then I got this audition for The Killing and I did that in my friend's apartment. So I think the mojo of doing the tapes in apartments in Stockholm was better than... Yeah, I sent that in and then they wanted to see me again on The Killing and I did it a couple of times and then I got that and then that's when it sort of started in the US.

53:58Started the role. That was my first job in the US.

54:00Lewis Howes:That was what, 2009, 10? Yeah. I moved to LA end of like in September 2009. And I think I booked a killing in like January 2010. Something like that. So it's been 16 years of success now. Just 16. Has there ever been any down seasons in the last 16 years? Because it seems like every year you're doing a few things that come out. I mean, a career has like, you know, like these little, I mean, I've been working consistently, but it was like, I was doing the killing. and I was not grateful enough to that, what that was. I was like, I want to be a movie star. I was like, there was a while there where I was like, I was getting a little too cocky.

54:39Really? Yeah, for sure. And I was like, I want this show. I want to be a movie star.

54:45Lewis Howes:But now TV shows are like the big thing. But that was still like, back in the day, there was like movie stars who was like, doing movies was like a level up. And then I got RoboCop. And then I understood how this whole sort of like value system in the industry works. And it's like, you're like a stock. How does that work? Well, it's like, so I got this, you know, this was like, you know, very well-known brand, sort of potential franchise. You know, everyone thought that was going to be a franchise. Robocop? Yeah, Robocop. You know, like it was a new rendition of Robocop. And I got that off like, you know, cool series.

55:25and then everyone is kind of like placing bets on you as if... RoboCop is going to be a hit. Before it comes out. Because in the interim, yeah. So that's like the hot period, right? Like after you've done it and it had pretty good like internal buzz, like it was looking good.

55:42Lewis Howes:But it hasn't come out yet. It hasn't come out yet. But they're selling you as like. People are like placing bets on you. So you get a couple of chances there regardless if it hits or not. Interesting. Yeah. You got to get something in there, you know. Interesting. It's like the next vine. You know, I got to grab onto the next vine that will swing you along. What did you get during that season when they were editing RoboCop and they're, oh, this is going to be a big thing. So I had, I got run all night, which was this movie with Liam. It was like a Warner Brothers movie with Liam Neeson. There was another one I could have done, this Guy Ritchie movie that, but I had already said yes to this other director.

56:21So I was going to honor that. But yeah, and then Robocop, it didn't really, it did okay. Like it was like, it wasn't a bomb. It ended up making money, but like it took a while. It wasn't a hit. It was not a hit. It like, and it didn't, I remember the Lego movie like opened above it. Oh yeah. And it was also, it was a little bit bad luck because it was like the whole Eastern Seaboard was shut down on the opening weekend. because it was like this winter storm. And these like little things that like, you know, that probably took like five million off of it. And five million on that opening would have probably made it a hit.

57:02You never know.

57:03Lewis Howes:You never know. You know, it would have been a moderate enough hit that they, you know, greenlit a second one. But so they didn't. And then all of a sudden, that was the first time in my career where I felt like it like went down a little bit. Your stock went down? Yeah, my stock went down a little bit. And it was still like, my stock was still way better than it was like two years ago, but it was a little bit down from there. This is what I want to know then, Joel. How do you, when your work goes down in the eyes of the industry, how does your self-worth navigate that? Does your self-worth go down or how do you keep confidence when you're not getting the external results that you desire?

57:45Yeah, that was actually an interesting time. Cause I think that was, it was a period where I started partying. I started doing a lot of blow. LA life, huh? Yeah. I was living in Hollywood, a lot of cocaine. Really? It was like cocaine two, three, sometimes four times a week. Come on. Yeah.

58:07Lewis Howes:So you're in the Hollywood life. Yeah. You got caught up in the scene. Yeah. You know? So. Wow. And then, and then I felt like, and then I, so it was in that. and then I felt like the career was going a little bit down I was like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa and then I had a moment with myself I was like okay let's like take a step back here like what's what's going on here and um and then I was like the scripts I was getting sent to me were like like this is not this is not as good like this is not I'm not getting the things that I want to do at all and and this is a big difference from what it was just a year ago and like the level of the scripts and like how interesting the characters are.

58:46So then I like kind of, uh, shape myself up, like stop partying. And then, and then I said to my representation, it's like, like, I just need to go out and audition. Like, cause I wasn't really auditioning because I was getting sent scripts. I was like, like, I want to audition for everything. Like sent. Yeah. I want to like show people what I can do, like remind people what I can do.

59:09Lewis Howes:Before all you did was a couple of self tapes. So you got some gigs and then you just kept getting sent yeah and all of a sudden it was starting to roll and i was getting scripts sent to me which is like so much nicer right right so you didn't have to do the la thing where a lot of actors have to go and audition well i did that for the her before the killing gotcha yeah and then and then it and then that kind of changed it so then i was getting offers for things um so then i went out and just started like auditioning for for things and uh how long was that like six months or something or no it wasn't it wasn't that long it was like a few months yeah a few months uh but you got back in the reps you got let me prepare let me like and then and then i was like i was approaching the auditions like with a chip on my shoulder i would be like i would so i sort of went back a little bit to the same i was like over preparing for these uh interesting for these auditions and and like i was like i'm gonna do like incredible scenes out of these auditions that was sort of my mindset murder you're just crushing i i i thought it was some pretty cool uh stuff like i was and it's kind of got me fired up and what was the response and the thing was that it did create i sort of had a gut feeling that that would create some positive momentum and it did and i it was like it showed my work to a couple of like casting agents that maybe weren't like that familiar and and then that led to auditioning for suicide squad and then uh and then i got suicide squad and then and then that was kind of the next vine that kind of swung me to the next what do you feel like was the biggest show or project or movie that you did that really kind of took you to the biggest level i mean i don't think i've had that like one thing you know really i think i've had it's more kind of like consistent work but it's the collection of just hit after hit yeah yeah what was the highest grossing project then and then what was the one that you felt like you did your best work i think the highest grossing was probably the first suicide squad um it was like close to a billion um it's pretty big but but it was like the critical reception of that was pretty muted and then to say the best um and then the second suicide squad the james gun suicide squad i mean that one would have smashed uh at the box office but it opened right as the delta wave hit during covid so it was uh it was one of those things where it was like it had we known uh that it was gonna come they would have pulled the release and waited for, you know, but, uh, so it was like really bad.

1:01:53It was like, uh, they went ahead with the whole like, uh, launching campaign because things were opening up and then the Delta wave hit and, and right. Like the weekend before we opened, like everything shut down. So it like had a, it didn't, but I think it had like a cultural impact because people saw it.

1:02:12Lewis Howes:Where do you feel like you did your best work? You've done so many different projects, theater, TV, film. I think definitely like Raskolnikov play was, I think that's really up there. But it was, I mean, that's such a long time ago. So hopefully I've gotten better than that. I really enjoyed The Killing, For All Mankind. I feel like in the fifth season of For All Mankind, that's like playing 80 years old. When I look at that, I feel like that's some of the best, that might be the best, some of the best work I've done for sure. I really love playing this like full-throated sociopath in the Detective Ho on Netflix.

1:02:57Lewis Howes:Is there a scene or a line or a phrase that you've read and played, whether it be on stage, TV, film, that you feel like has spoken to your life up until now, that's really resonated with you as a human being of the same cloth that dreams are woven of we are made and our short lives are embraced by sleep what's that from from the tempest okay shakespeare i have that as a tattoo really that was easy to remember to me it's just like uh it it like wraps around like some existential truth of our existence in this universe and what happens when we die and that we carry on that we go back to I don't know wow that's beautiful it's poetry so it's not like it's not it doesn't mean anything exactly but I feel like the words kind of give some sort of meaning to how I look at life and death I am big on simple daily habits that support how you show up.

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1:04:48Lewis Howes:Nature's Bounty, it's in your nature. Learn more at naturesbounty.com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This one's for all the TV lovers. My entertainment from DirecTV gets you over 60 channels and Disney Plus, Hulu, and HBO Max all in one pack. Watch it all, but don't spoil it. Tell your friends to get My Entertainment 2 for$34.99 a month. Go to directtv.com slash genre packs and sign up today. New customers only. Service renews monthly unless canceled. Credit card required.

1:05:24Lewis Howes:Conditions apply to apps. HBO Max basic with ads begins after Direct TV five-day trial. Learn more at directtv.com. Restrictions apply. I've been just so enthralled by your storytelling of everything right now, But the thing that I'm curious about is you just told me, you know, off camera beforehand that you're going through your own transition and transformation right now. And I know you've talked about in the past and other places you talked a little bit about here. You grew up with women in your family, but you also had a challenging relationship, I guess, psychologically with your dad. And you've talked about that, that the men you said the men in your family communicate through rage and you're actively been working on breaking that pattern.

1:06:04Lewis Howes:And it's not easy for you to admit that, let alone in public. So I guess I'm curious that this season, you know, you've been in LA for 16-ish, 17 years. You've had a lot of success externally. What is this season of unpacking more of your psychological and emotional life giving you? And what are you learning to take on to the new season of your career and life? I think I'm trying to find the balance of not letting go of my youthful spirit, but still becoming a little bit more of an adult and being a good leader in my relationship. and I think I've found it easier to be a leader at work than maybe in my relationship and in my private life and I think I've shied away from difficult conversations in my family and not you know taking taking that space that I know many around me have like waiting for me to sort of take and i and i do it in a different way you know where i create things for my family and and um provide and and um and particularly in my relationship of uh for me like my the key word that is is like consistency that that's what i'm like aspiring consistency and like in my good habits and the habits that help me build patience i'm a little too susceptible to outside um the outside affecting me and even changing me so which you know makes me a little bit of an unreliable entity because I can be so affected by outside stimuli or inputs.

1:08:10You know, I'm so much of like going with the flow and, hey, when in Rome, let's try this out, let's do this.

1:08:18Lewis Howes:Yeah. And I think, you know, I've had very much of like a traveler's mindset where I, you know, love coming to a new place and like figuring out how people live here and then trying to kind of become one of them you know and live the way they do and uh and it's a little bit of like an actor's mentality too of like trying on different versions of myself and so how does this feel how does this fit this is fun this is a good experience and where i've been you know like in pursuit of collecting experiences and um and not necessarily thinking so much about sort of being reliable and dependable and uh in relationship in relationship to you know because your career your career you're like reliable dependable you show up yeah for sure if you book a gig for four to six months it's like you're you're a hundred percent reliable yeah yeah why do you feel like you've been more reliable for 20 years in your career than in relationships part of is priority you know I really prioritized or earlier I didn't even think of it that way it was like you know I gave everything to my career and then everything else was kind of you know fallen you know it would it would it will be what it will be you know right but it's like but nothing touches my work you know and and that's you know to me that's not a recipe for happiness so you have to find a balance and and I also I definitely have a much better balance now I you know before I was much more destructive in my approach to work I would you know if if a character was smoking meth you know I need to be the character yeah and and I think a lot of it was also sort of stemming from insecurity and security of like will I be able to like perform in the way that I want to and will I be able to like be vulnerable in the way that I want to will I be able to you know show the darkness of that character if what if if I didn't like go into those territories and get firsthand experience of all that stuff but now I you know it's like for me being vulnerable and that is not hard at all um and and even like being vulnerable on camera is not hard for me it's i've created those pathways neurologically you can open up i can i can just start breathing in a certain way and then uh and then kind of do a little meditation around the circumstances that i'm in and then like those channels are sort of open now you know i've there is it's it's a technique, you know, based on experience.

1:11:15Personal and career.

1:11:16Lewis Howes:Yes. You can drop into vulnerability in any moment. Yeah. I mean, I don't think about dropping into vulnerability, but I'm not afraid of it, you know? So, but, but then like just technically for my profession, it's like, I know how to do that. So, so I don't need to like go on a three day bender to like feel fragile, you know? You can take a five minute meditation and get there. Yeah. Yeah. But in your personal life, do you feel like you're open and receptive and vulnerable? No, I'm a disaster. Yes, I mean, it's not hard for me to be vulnerable. But then I kind of let myself down by not being consistent enough and not being dependable enough.

1:12:05and uh it's a little like uh you know i kind of just need to man up a little bit in my in my life and and be a stronger constant i'm not disagreeing with you but why do you think you need to

1:12:19Lewis Howes:like why do you think you need to man up or be consistent or do these things in your personal life versus how you are in your professional life is it because you think you'll have more peace and joy and happiness or do you feel like that's what you're supposed to do at this age or i mean part Part of it is to be more compatible with my partner. Yeah. But when I do that, I'm also happier. It definitely, like, makes me happier. And I feel like I have more self-respect. When you're consistent and reliable and leading rather than... For sure. Just kind of go with however, yeah. Yes. And, yeah, definitely.

1:13:02definitely um i'm much happier with myself and and a lot of these things and and the the healthy habits that i need to create to do that they are great for me and they help you at

1:13:13Lewis Howes:work as well i'm assuming the more for sure consistent you're on your personal life you probably deliver better results in your professional life yeah it's like this buddhist expression called shanpa have you heard of that what's it mean the shanpa is like the the space that you create like before you get triggered or emotionally affected and and it's like to create these habits, to create more space, more shampa, like that, that is so good for me. I don't know if this is every man. I can definitely speak for me that I think I've, I was always afraid of full commitment and going all in, in intimate relationships, because it was almost like I would have to let go of a world of all these other things that I could potentially do, or these activities or adventures, or the idea of freedom to go anywhere and do anything at any moment without having to rely on or communicate with anyone else yeah or letting anyone down it's just like i can be fully whatever i want to do and i don't have to call anyone yeah and i think for a long time i lived in fear of letting go of that yeah and i'm not saying it was easy it was extremely challenging and it took me until i was in my late 30s you know, it's probably like to fully be able to say, okay, is this life I've been living going to give me what I want in the future, which is to be in a harmonious relationship, which is to have a family eventually in all these things that my future self really wants.

1:14:42Lewis Howes:I know that I can't keep living this way, but I think for like 15 years I was pulled with this, but this is so fun and interesting and freeing, right? That you really have to let go of an older identity and step into this leadership role for yourself. And what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, is like, you still love that idea to be able to do those things. And you don't want to lose the boyish, childish in you, that energy, while you step into full commitment, full ownership, full leadership in your personal life. Yeah. Because kind of that child, that childlike in me, I think is what generates a lot of my life.

1:15:26Yeah.

1:15:26Lewis Howes:The childlike energy, the wonder, the adventure, the creativity, the spontaneity. It's what created everything I'm building. Yeah. And it's what attracts opportunities to me. Yeah. So if I'm just like, I'm this responsible, like, you know, leader, it's, you're not, you're not attracting like the creative energy, the flow. Yeah. And so it's the dance between ownership, responsibility and leadership while keeping the childlike wonder and like meshing the two. Yeah. You put that really well. I love the way you put that because I think that's like, it's so important to be able to, to blend those worlds and not like just become like a boring dad.

1:16:06Exactly. Exactly.

1:16:07Lewis Howes:This rigid, like, okay, now we're... Yeah. No. That's like scary. Yeah. And with more responsibilities, there is more weight and pressure and bills. It's like you have to do things differently in order to take care of those responsibilities. You have to be a leader. You get to be a leader. And you don't want to lose that little childlike boy who's like, let's just go play and let's have fun and let's adventure and have no responsibility and just create. Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, that's like a little bit of a metaphor for art. And even for acting, it's like you have to create the structure that is really strong.

1:16:50And then within that structure, you have to be able to lose control a little bit. But to lose control and not like spin out, you have to have that structure. Boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Boundaries. And it's like, and I think in a relationship, it's like, yeah, I'm sure you can find, you know, You can structure your life where you have a partner that will let you do anything and say that they're, I'm fine with it. But you know that they're not. And it's like, if you're honest with yourself, then you're most likely hurting the person you're with. And, you know, it's like, who do you want to be, you know?

1:17:33And I want to be like playful and have like a childlike spirit. but with a framework where my kids, my future kids will be really proud of me. You know, it's like, and, and where my wife feels that she can rely on me. My word is bond. And, and if I say I'm going to do something, I will.

1:17:57Lewis Howes:Did you grow up in a household where your parents' word were bond and they created safety and structure? I mean, yes and no. Um, you know, they're still together and they're, you know, close it wasn't a very passionate i didn't see that i love my dad to bits he's not the most romantic guy you know he's like i don't think he was good at like creating adventure either's a little too like holding on rigid uh yeah rigid and but i'm hearing you say the vision for your life is you want to be free but also creates structure for your future kids yeah the freedom is not hard to create you are free you need to like it's like but it's like harnessing it like it's harnessing it uh and like growing up in certain areas you know like just i've let too many things get in the way and i said i was gonna do this or i i like you have my word i was gonna do this but then this happened and that happened and you know and it's like no it it you know that That's where I need to really make a big shift.

1:19:06Lewis Howes:If you could, you're about to turn 47, I think, right? Later this year? If you could go into the next three years, into the end of your 40s. 40s, yeah. And you're... Oh, God, I'm so immature. No, I'm just saying, you're an actor. You know, it's okay. But let's just say, you know, the next three years, before you hit 50. Yeah, I feel like I lived in my 20s for 20 years. Yeah, exactly. It's okay. But the thing I think is really cool is you're starting to like open up about this you know i've known you for we're not like the closest of friends but we've been in friendship for many years i've gotten closer and i feel like i've heard more of this story and you've heard me share my stuff and all these things and what i think is really cool is the awakening that you're having and i think a lot of people look at actors and they just don't know what's really behind the scenes and they think it's very glamorous and life is perfect or if you're getting all these shows like you're making all this money but there's also challenges that you've had to face.

1:20:04Lewis Howes:And the things that have gotten you there may also be things that hurt you in other areas, you know, because you're so talented at like saying, yes, I'm doing these things. Maybe it's hurt you in your relationship as well, which you've talked about. And I think it's really cool that you're starting to share more about this. And I'm curious if we're three years in the future, if you could time travel and imagine, you know, the character you're going to be living in three years, that in real life, what is it that you want him to say to you right now that will support you in having everything you want at the top of your career and the top of your personal life?

1:20:44Lewis Howes:Yeah, like, what the fuck took you so long? But not even like shaming you about the past. Like he knows where you're at now. Like you have all the answers. Like, you know, you know all the answers. You have all the answers. You, it's just about implementation. So hopefully he'll say good job. good job like uh that that's uh that's exactly it that's it so he'd be saying so if he if you're 50 in the future talking to you now that's what he would say to you now about the next few years i hope he's gonna say like uh good job that's that's what we were doing gotcha got you the right point and what do you feel like it's going to take from you to hold yourself accountable to integrating these things that you've been learning?

1:21:28Lewis Howes:Because it's easy to slip back. I've done it a ton of times. You've done it. It's like, okay, we make a new commitment, but then that old boy just wants to play. He wants to go out to play. This other big opportunity. I said, I committed to you here on this thing, but no, this thing happened. I got to go do this. It's easy to slip back into old ways of being. Yeah, it's finding the right way to play. For me, it's really like having more of a consistency in my habits regardless of where I'm at. and regardless of who's around me um and to to not get not be so like like do my thing you know like do yoga two to three times a week meditate every day you know get up early and and like take my dog out before sun sunrise you know it's like these things that I know that like also make me more compatible in my relationship and then you know when you're two actors in a relationship too and you have these like periods that you're away from each other you have to think these kind of the sort of things that I do become extra difficult because you know it's really difficult to be my partner where you know I go off and do a movie and it's hard enough to be away from each other for like a month we try to keep it like to not more than three weeks, but sometimes, you know, it's a month.

1:22:52But then I've gone off and become a different person for this month. And I've created all these new habits. And all of a sudden, I'm like smoking cigarettes and I'm drinking wine every day. You know, it's like, so, you know, that is also not something that's creating safety and stability. And, you know, when it's enough that I'm going off and becoming a different character with every character I'm playing in, because I like, I don't think about it myself. and I don't experience it that way. But apparently I change quite a bit based on what character I'm playing at the moment. Yeah.

1:23:26Lewis Howes:Is it hard for you to kind of like cleanse after the scene and like get back into who Joel is? I have like this little like ritual or routine. Rituals where I have sage, and especially when I'm playing like... A dark character or something, yeah. I do this little sage ritual where I just kind of like try to leave the guy there. But of course, it's like you're with those kind of thoughts for a whole day so you know it does affect you in some way but yeah it's a you know so it's enough with all that stuff so i need to be much more consistent in like the way that i live my life and and have my sort of routines and my consistency and the things that are good for me and then also like uh is more compatible with my my wife i think since the first probably time i met you I think or at least pretty soon after that so I guess we've known each other for almost eight seven eight years maybe something like that yeah I've heard you say over and over again dozens of times that you really want to have a family you really want to have kids like your dream is to have kids yeah that's what I've heard you say multiple times I'm just curious when you have kids what is the thing you want your kids to be proud of you the most that I'm like a uh a good honest person that's kind to other people that makes other people feel good that i'm like a um positive influence in my family and in society but i think that also those things that like someone that you can trust and it's consistent all the things you're trying to do right now exactly gotta get ready that's good get ready let's try to be like you that's good man There's so many things about like just the human psychology of an actor that I have no clue what you go through.

1:25:13Lewis Howes:I mean, I have some clue from like being with Martha and understanding a little bit, but I haven't really experienced that of how to take on a character and obsess over a character and not let that imprint on you in some way. I'm assuming every character you've played, you've had to have compassion or understanding or empathy or anger towards them. and then somehow not letting that affect you or imprint on you for the rest of your life. I don't know how you do that. And maybe you can't. Characters that you play for a long time, they kind of leave a little trace, you know, puts a little dent in you in some way.

1:25:44It's an exercise in empathy. Because you really have to find a way to understand and have love for that person, even though...

1:25:55Lewis Howes:Even if you hate them. I don't think that people are born evil. and um and i think that and even if you know it we're all to some degree shaped by society and of course there are like exceptions but um you know we have but even like even with psychopaths you know not not all psychopaths are like always bad people you know it's uh maybe you don't find love for every character, but an understanding, you know, you find an understanding of like where it comes from. And then, and then sometimes the answer is like, they're just not aware, you know, like this guy that I was playing on, on this Netflix show, Detective Hole, who's like, I sort of, you know, you don't, it doesn't have to follow like the psychology, ABCD, but, but I, I sort of was playing around with the framework of him being sort of a malignant narcissist, which is on the sort of psychopathy spectrum.

1:26:55It's like the station right before a narcissistic sociopath. Okay, yeah. They have like sociopathic traits, but they have ability to feel empathy, you know? Still, yeah. Yeah. And even though sometimes they can act completely without empathy. So it's a little in between. I thought that was like more interesting to play with. And this guy, it was someone that was really like, you know, he was definitely damaged in his upbringing and by his father. And also, he doesn't know what's going on inside of him.

1:27:35Lewis Howes:Yeah, he's just doing, he's just reacting. Yeah, it's like, there's just like, he's driven by his sexual confusion and sex is more about power than anything else. and he's driven by his like lust for more power and games. And it's, you know, so there's all these like impulses that are coming to him that he's acting upon. And he might have like a strategy of how to play this power game to make this person feel weaker and take his spot and to keep climbing up. But it's not someone that is like aware of what's going on inside. and my actions here are because I'm hurt in this way. So it's fascinating to kind of create the sort of framework of a character.

1:28:22And then you're just like, but in here, he's like just going, you know, based on impulses and things that are happening. And it's not like, it's not a rooted person, but he's broken. So that's why there's potential for so much chaos.

1:28:39Lewis Howes:I always hear about this thing called the hero's journey for acting. yeah what does that mean the hero's journey for me it's more about like about five to seven grams of psilocybin but there's like a hero's journey arc right when you take on a role yeah are you thinking about that hero's journey arc based on this well so it's like it's a type of story um and and it's a type of you know it's like luke skywalker the classic like hero's journey and it has all these like different steps. Do you think about that when you take on a role of like, okay, what's the arc of throughout the whole season or the movie or are you thinking about how do I deliver this best scene for this moment and worry about the rest of it later?

1:29:25Well, you know, like a hero's journey is interesting because, you know, and it's a cool framework for a story because that character goes through so much change, you know, and so you're always trying to, I'm always trying to find a role that has an evolution and changes a lot over the course of the story. That's interesting to play if you're the lead, you know. But then, of course, you want to kind of cover your tracks a little bit so the performance doesn't become formulaic. I see what you're saying.

1:29:56Lewis Howes:Gotcha. You've got three different shows out right now. You've got multiple projects in production that are coming out soon. If anyone just Googles your name, joel kinnaman they'll see where they can find all of your work your tv film everything you've been working on uh you know i originally i think i originally saw you in a small part you did with one of my a film that i really like the girl the dragon tattoo you have to have good yeah you're like you're a quick moment in there but then i remember seeing you in house of cards which i I thought you were incredible in. And I think it was one season you're in that or a half season, two seasons.

1:30:35Two, yeah, fourth and fifth, yeah.

1:30:36Lewis Howes:Incredible in House of Cards. Altered Carbon is where, you know, the synchronicity really lined up with, which I thought was a fascinating show. And a lot of people that meet Martha who have seen Altered Carbon, they're like, that was one of my favorite shows. I wish you and Joel did the next season. You know, everyone's always like, ah, I wish you guys would have done the next one. But you've done so many cool projects. and uh you know i think what what i acknowledge about you joel is just you being so open in your journey and being in the mess of it being willing to like continue to transform i just think it's really cool because i think there's a lot of successful actors or business leaders that i'm aware of or i've met who aren't willing to work on themselves because what got them there they don't want to lose that yeah they don't want to lose the thing well now i'm successful got me here.

1:31:29Lewis Howes:So I don't want to change who I am. Even if it's destructive in my intimate relationships or my business partnerships, even if I'm a jerk, like this is what's got me here. So I'm going to hold onto it. And I think it's really cool that you are on this journey and you have been for many years since I've known you of awareness. Like you're very open about, yeah, I know I've been this way and I've been this way and it's been challenging and I got to figure it out. And I, and I see this internal struggle you've been dealing with and I feel like it's really cool and inspiring that you're sharing with others, your friends, and also publicly because it gives other people perspective on they can continue to grow to improve the quality of their relationships, their career, their business, their goals, and hopefully get back to harmony.

1:32:18Lewis Howes:And everything I talk about in the School of Greatness is how do you live your own best life and how do you have, and really what that means is how do you have inner peace with who you are on your path. And you've had a lot of success and a lot of fun, a lot of adventure, but you haven't fully had that total peace and harmony inside of you from what I've heard. But I'm glad to hear that you're starting to create that because I believe you, the Joel Kinnaman with more harmony, more, more peace and more structure is going to create even in bigger abundance when your career opportunities and however that looks for you, whether that's big hits or, you know, more indie stuff, you want to, whatever you want to do, it doesn't matter.

1:33:02Lewis Howes:Some babies would be nice. Babies. I think maybe that's your greatest, you know, adventure, right? And so I'm just, uh, I acknowledge you, man. It's really cool that you're on this journey and anything I can do to serve and support you, you know, let me know. Just trying to be like you, Louis. You know, one day at a time, man, but y 'all got stuff we got to deal with. So this is called the three truths. It's a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live and you get to accomplish everything and live the life you want to, but it's the last day on earth, many years away.

1:33:29Lewis Howes:You get to live as long as you want. But for whatever reason in this hypothetical scenario, all of your work has to be taken with you. So every project you've worked on, this conversation, any movie, TV show, any recorded content that you've been on is gone, hypothetical. But you get to leave behind on the final day three truths, three lessons from your life that you would want to leave behind. What would those three truths be for you? Face your fears head on. We are love. Live in generosity. It's all a kid of it. My man. Appreciate it, brother. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:34:10Lewis Howes:Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:34:49Lewis Howes:And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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