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Podcast Summary: The School of Greatness - Episode with Evy Poumpouras
Episode Overview In this episode of *The School of Greatness*, host Lewis Howes interviews former Secret Service agent Evy Poumpouras. The discussion centers on understanding human behavior, reading people accurately, and developing trust in relationships. Evy shares her life-altering experiences, including working at Ground Zero on 9/11 and the lessons learned from a near-death childbirth.
Key Themes and Concepts
- Neutrality Mindset
- Definition: A mental state where one remains centered amid chaos and emotional turmoil.
- Benefits: Prevents extreme emotional reactions (high highs and low lows) related to external factors, fostering internal peace and resilience.
- The Importance of Listening
- Tactical Communication: Evy emphasizes the power of asking questions and then remaining silent to allow others to reveal themselves.
- Gathering Intelligence: Effective in both personal and professional interactions by understanding people's intentions and behaviors.
- Authenticity vs. External Validation
- Chasing External Validation: Evy argues that relying on others' approval can hinder personal authenticity and growth.
- Comparison Trap: Watching others can lead to self-doubt and sabotage creativity. Evy advises against consuming too much external content to maintain originality.
- Conflict De-escalation Techniques
- Responding to Anger: When dealing with angry individuals, allow them to express their emotions fully before attempting to communicate.
- Less Talking, More Listening: The importance of strategic silence when navigating confrontations or interviews.
- Recognizing Behavior Patterns
- Good vs. Evil: Evy challenges the binary perception of people as good or evil, suggesting that even well-meaning individuals can cause harm.
- Behavioral Labels: Focus on labeling behaviors rather than people. Observe actions to inform decisions about trust and relationships.
- Self-Empowerment
- Internal vs. External Factors: Evy emphasizes that one's mindset determines their ability to succeed, not the support (or lack thereof) from others.
- Forgiveness of Non-supporters: Acknowledging that some people may not understand your journey or goals and learning to forgive them.
Key Takeaways
- Authenticity Over Imitation: Avoid comparing yourself to others to maintain your unique voice and perspective.
- Power of Observation: Use listening as a tool to gauge trustworthiness and intentions in relationships.
- Adaptability: Adjust your approach to different individuals and situations while remaining true to yourself.
- Emotional Regulation: Manage your reactions and emotions to maintain control during challenging interactions.
- Gratitude and Perspective: Reflect on life experiences, including hardships, as opportunities for growth and learning.
Personal Reflections Evy shares her personal journey, including two life-threatening experiences that shaped her understanding of gratitude and the value of life. Her growth from these events contributes to her current outlook on relationships and self-worth.
Conclusion This episode provides invaluable insights into human behavior, communication strategies, and personal growth. Evy Poumpouras' experiences as a Secret Service agent bring a unique perspective on trust, authenticity, and resilience. For anyone seeking to improve their interpersonal relationships or understand human psychology, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom.
Additional Resources
- Evy's book: [*Becoming Bulletproof: Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fearlessly*](https://amzn.to/4jtQGkC)
- Evy's BBC Maestro Course: [*The Art of Influence*](https://bbcm.co/3DUH6I0)
- Lewis Howes' book: [*Make Money Easy*](https://lewishowes.com/money)
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Make sure to check out the full episode for more insights and strategies on unlocking your potential and living a fulfilling life.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00You can't look to other people to support you for you to go do something. If you're saying, you need to give me this so I can do this, they're not the problem. Your thinking is the problem. She's the secret service agent who's protected presidents. And she looked after the Obamas, Clinton, and Bush. With a master's in forensic psychology, she worked complex undercover missions. My girl, Evie Pompouros. Ask people questions, drop a question, and go quiet. Let them reveal themselves to you. If you want to know how to read people and if you want to know to gauge who's trustworthy, who's not, who's reliable, let them show you.
0:35But if you're jabbering away, you're not going to see it. The mistake we make is we think there's good and there's evil. Evil people do bad things. Good people do bad things. Good people take advantage. Good people will hurt you. What's the tell or the question to know if someone is really alive? Okay, I'll answer this question. You have really kind of exploded in the last three or four years with your content. and every time you come on my show and the content I see online, it's around human performance, about optimizing yourself. It's also around human psychology and understanding people. It's understanding how to influence people in a positive way, understanding when someone's trying to manipulate you.
1:15All these things that you've learned through your studies, through real world experiences, protecting presidents, through working in secret service, all these different things. I'm curious, what is the greatest skill that you've developed in the last four years, five years, since you've really kind of blown up in a bigger way of all the interviews and the content you do on TV? What is the biggest skill you've developed in the last four or five years for yourself that has continued to help you thrive personally? Because you had tons of skills when you were working in the field, but what about in these last four or five years?
1:53It's hard to say if it's just one thing. I think it's been a few things. One is I let things be. I don't try very hard to analyze or understand. I was listening to your story before about the million dollars, somebody owing it to you, and it's very easy to get in that rabbit hole and all these things come in. And I've learned to kind of, I don't want to say surrender, but just let things be. and instead of not getting stuck in the dwelling thing I'm like all right there's a lesson for me to learn here that's one thing like not trying so hard not chasing things so hard I've learned that the harder you chase it's it's like a frenzy and it doesn't work and when you kind of step back and you're like I'm just gonna let it happen I'm not saying don't do the work you have to do the work and I think that's the other thing you have to put in the work um it's and I don't you know what else I don't do I don't compare myself to other people really no how have you learned that because that's hard for a lot of people the moment I start to do it I stop and this is I've never said this I'll say this here I've never watched anybody else's podcast interview ever what do you not that I don't like your show.
3:13It's a great show. I watch the clips. I watch the clips. So for example, so I've done podcast interviews, right? Your show. I won't sit and watch somebody else's because I don't want it to get into my head because then I start doing, oh, they did this, or I should say this or that. And to be frank, I actually learned this in secret service training from shooting because when you would shoot, they'd like line you up and the targets were really close to each other. I mean, safety, like within reason, but everybody could see everybody's target. And it was very easy for your eyes to go to the other person's target.
3:50And you start to kind of psych yourself out. Oh, his hole's perfect and mine sucks. And you might think like, well, what's the big deal? It is a big deal because when there's 40 special agents watching everybody else, they're like, she sucks. I'm not going to take her out with me. Or he's not this, or they look like a mess. So you start to care. So I don't, Louis, as I move up, I'm very careful. And when I look at other people's content, I look and I move on. And that's a really big thing. And I don't try to do what other people do. And sometimes I have people hit me up and they'll say, you know, I, Evie, you know, how can I be a better speaker?
4:31And you were talking about that before, or how can I be a better interviewer on my podcast. And I want to sound like this person. And I, and I, and I'm like, stop watching what other people do. If you want to mess with your head, look at what everybody else is doing and then compare it to you. And then now, instead of you being just like genuine and authentic, you're trying to do what other people do. And that doesn't work. And I really feel like that's the biggest thing. Even when I go on the news, I cover news here at 30 Rock for NBC, I cover law enforcement and crime. I'll listen to the other news anchors, but I'm always very careful when I listen to the other commentators to really just be like, just do your thing, just do your thing.
5:17That's interesting you say that because...
5:23It's interesting you say that because when I launched the School of Braavis over 12 years ago, I remember saying to myself, I don't want to hear another podcast. I don't want to listen to any podcasts because I don't want to be influenced on what other people are doing. And I just said to myself, if I wanted to listen to a show, how would I want it to sound for me? Like, what would I want? Not trying to mimic everyone else. And I think it really served me well because I was like, okay, I want the intro music to be positive. I want it to be this. I want to start this way. And I want the flow to be a certain way.
5:53And so I didn't have any, I guess, judgment about what other shows did. And it's funny because I actually just listened to an episode of a more of a scripted show which I usually don't listen to but I listened to and I was like oh that's interesting and I could and I could I saw myself comparing myself to a scripted show on how they use their music and this and the voice acting and all that stuff and I think it was also it being out of my industry being a scripted show actually was like okay with it because it was adjacent, but it wasn't in my kind of interview world. And so I was able to get some inspiration without being too judgmental of myself and kind of say, how can I pull from this industry into my industry?
6:37So I thought that was also something that was good. But when I launched the show, I didn't listen to any podcasts. And it was really helpful for me. But I also think, what about having a mentor, though? You had coaches and guides who you probably looked up to in Secret Service and training that had a certain level of success, right? So don't we want to also have certain mentors or coaches or people we can get feedback from without comparing to but guiding us? So I'm going to be honest. I've never had a mentor. I've never had one. I actually didn't even know what the word meant for a long, long time until it became popular.
7:14So I never had someone where I was like, oh, I want to be like that. I didn't have that. So maybe I didn't know what I was missing. But you had coaches, right? Or people that were like training you in the field. Lewis, they're not coaches. They're like drilling you to the ground. They're trying to make me fail. Lewis thinks it's like, hey, you go. They're more like, you're a loser. You're this. You suck. Quit now. Quit. Quit. You're going to get somebody killed. They were the opposite of mentors. They were the opposite. The first time I did, when I joined the NYPD, which was before they built the new academy, which is really nice.
7:50I went to the rinky-dinky one it was attached to the 1-3 precinct found in the 20s for my New Yorkers if you know where that is and this thing's like the stairwells are caving in it's like a dump there was like it was wild but you there was a gym and the gym had this green line and it was like the green lane of death and they would have you run this line 25 times 25 times was a mile and a half and like that was one of the test markers they would do and you would run this line and they have you run in ranks and you had to put your arm out so it was like shoulder to shoulder I couldn't fall back and then the person behind me couldn't fall back because if it was just like this whole ranking system if you fell back a little they would pull you out they would yank you out and then it's not like they feel bad for you they put you in the middle and then they'd have you run suicides back and forth across this huge gym I mean people would I would see grown men go like puke go over to the trash can puke and then they'd be like get back in there so the first time like I wasn't a great runner I never really had to run before I went to the Academy so my first run I fall out I'm what they call a fallout and they yank me out I will never forget the instructor she was like and it was a woman you think women women she's like come on drama queen get out you know I was thinking, where is this coming from?
9:11And I'm doing my runs, my suicide runs. I'm heaving. And then they have me in the other fallouts, stand in the middle, the run's done. They make everybody in the gym do an about face to look at the center. And you're looking at about maybe 500 people. And they get in there and they're like, do you see these people here in the middle? They're gonna get you killed. So when you all go in the locker room downstairs to change, you tell them they need to quit. You all should not be here. Get out. So those were my coaches, Lewis. Interesting. When you have people trying to get you to quit and that's their job, how do you learn to have self-respect or believe in yourself that you're capable of what they're not telling you to do?
10:00When I started in the NYPD and I joined, I was very naive. I was like NYPD Academy. It'll be like college. I'm like, it'll be fine. I just survived college and I was very wrong. They're paramilitary structures. So I was very a novice. I knew nobody in the military. I knew nobody in law enforcement. So when I went that first week and everyone's yelling at you, they're talking to you like you're garbage. That's just the way it was. I remember that first week being what did I do and then my family too was not supportive at all they thought I was bonkers all my friends thought I was nuts so I was really really very alone in that moment and I had one friend who had he had done wrestling he sports when he was in high school and he's like and I remember being upset he's like and I was like I'm gonna quit and he said to me don't quit it's a game It's a game.
10:56And I'm like, what do you mean it's a game? I didn't understand. He's like, that's what they do. They wear you out. And they want people to quit. They want the weak to quit so the strong stay. And he's like, don't let them win. And I stuck it out. And every day got a little bit easier and a little bit easier and a little bit easier. But yeah, you go in there, you feel like a loser. You do. You feel like you're weak. You know, you're in front-leaning rest for nothing. I remember somebody's phone went off in my company. It was called a company, like in the back. Instructor hears it, and he's like, everybody get down, and they put us in front-leaning rest for something like 30 minutes.
11:36What is that, a plank or something? It's a plank, but a really horrible one. Wow. So I had to really endure that, and then when you go to the U.S. Secret Service Academy, again, everyone's looking at you going, and that's even more curated. NYPD, 1 ,500 people in my class. NYPD, cadets. First month, 300 quit. They were happy to see you go. They're like, bye-bye. Bye-bye. Don't come back. They didn't care. And then NYPD, now I went to a class of, excuse me, Secret Service 54. And now you're really seen. And there they invested in you because it was a much more lengthy process. And they did want to see you succeed.
12:25But at the same time, they're like, hey, man, if you can't cut it, there's the door. And so you really have to endure. And sometimes people may not want you there. And then that's another obstacle. But every day, everybody's seeing what you do. And even grades, like they would post scores up so people could see it. So there was no... I've never had to do it. Yeah, it's no... Not fun. No. No, so it's also the shame that you don't want of not performing. So it's not just for yourself. It's like everybody's seeing you not do what you need to do. I mean, I know there's people here who've had maybe parents that didn't believe in them or siblings that were putting them down or just didn't have good experiences as adults where people weren't empowering them.
13:12So how did you learn to feel empowered when people were trying to force you to quit? They wanted you to be humiliated. they wanted you to look bad they were happy if you failed how did you stay I guess confident or believing that you were above it and create an environment of I'm okay no matter what they think so there's kind of two lanes one lane is it's people that love you and care about you but don't support you and then the other lane is people that may maybe envy you or jealous of you do want your harm this lane here they need to not be in your life and the moment you realize that You don't have to tell them, but you should start to fade out.
13:53You know who those folks are, and you don't need to be like, hey, you know what? Save it. Save it, because you need that energy so that you can go do what you need to do. Right? The point is to fade out. And then before you know it, you're not there anymore, and they're like, where'd she go? I've been gone months. Right, right, right.
14:20The other lane is that people that you really want to support you and you want them to do that for you, but they forgive them. My parents were immigrants. My mother grew up in a village, like literally a village, dirt poor. I mean, the bathroom was in the forest. And when I was a kid and I would go visit, like it was a hole in the ground and a shack next to the chicken coop. right and so my mother grew up dirt poor my father grew very poor dirt poor uh they were from greece so they couldn't so they they couldn't understand what i was doing they didn't understand it my brother he's like you can go be a cop you know you know he didn't like cops i didn't even like them, but life takes you in a weird path.
15:12So I just learned, like, forgive them, but, you know, I'm going to be transparent with you. Like, you can't look to other people to support you for you to go do something. It's nice if you can get it, but like, if you're saying you need to give me this so I can do this, they're not the problem. Your thinking is the problem. Can you explain more of that?
15:42It is, I'm not going to do this because I don't have support. My mom's not behind me. My dad's not behind me. This person is supporting me. My friends are making fun of me. So what I just did is I made these external factors, the deciding factors of whether I do something or not. And then, you know, and we've all been there. We listen to other people, myself included. And then we are pissed. Why did I listen to this person? and then we're mad at them uh-uh we have to be mad at ourselves and be like i chose to listen and so i i had to learn over time don't listen and you also know intuitively if it feels like you need to go this way then just go and if you're wrong you're wrong like if you fail you fail i'll share the story with you because as you were talking i was thinking about when you were sharing all the ways in which you failed or you didn't feel right.
16:38Before I went to the NYPD, I actually took a test to be a probationary, not a police officer, to work as a probation officer. And I started leaning into law enforcement. I really wanted the job. It was going to be my first real job out of college. And I was like, so I get a date and time to go take the test. I go to Brooklyn. I won't forget it. I'm super nervous because I'm like, wow, this is like a real job. You know, Again, I came from a very labor background, my parents. And so I show up to take this test. And I'm really, really nervous to take this test. And I'm taking the test. And they ask us a question.
17:15I had to write an essay. But I was so nervous. I had a hard time writing my essay. Time's up. I didn't do a good job. And I knew it. I'm like, I failed this thing. And sure enough, I failed it. Fast forward a couple of months, a couple of maybe weeks ahead. the woman who gave it to us there was a woman who gave us the test like the proctor I go to a wedding and I see her now she's a probationary officer and I see her at a wedding and I'm like oh my gosh that's the woman that gave me the test so I must start my courage because I felt shame because I failed it she failed you she failed me but I failed myself because I didn't do a good job on that test so I go up turn I'm like hi I'm so-and-so I took the test a couple of weeks ago I didn't do very well hopefully I'll get a second chance but I just wanted to come over and say hello despite feeling that shame and I turn you know she shakes my hand she gives me one of those I turn around I walk away now my mom who's seated at a table across my mom's like a very I don't want to say naive but like she's just not she doesn't look for negative things I go back and my mom says to me, come here.
18:27Who was that? And I said, oh, that was the woman who proctored the exam. She was the recruiter, the one that didn't do well. She's like, the moment you turned your back, she was laughing at you with her table and saying stuff about you. Why? And I remember, I was like, because I failed and I didn't do well on that test. And she's probably looking at, like, who's this ditz who thinks she's going to go into this field, you know? So can that crush you? Sure, I'd be lying if I didn't say, like, I felt shame. But then there's also this other part of you that's just, like, onward, you know? And so from that, I became a Secret Service agent.
19:09There you go.
19:14I'm curious about this, because I know there's a lot of givers in this room, people that want to give generously and have a lot of love in their hearts and just think everyone, well, maybe not in New York, but think everyone's positive. Growing up in Ohio, I was just like, oh, everyone's a good person. But then I moved to New York and I was like, oh, okay, it's a different vibe. Gotta get that thick skin up in here. But people are giddy, I'm just teasing. But as a master of human behavior, human psychology, human nature, how do you think people can really understand if someone's being a giver and generous with trying to meet them or connect with them, whether it be intimately or career business-wise, versus actually wanting to take something from that person.
19:55How can you tell if someone's really a giver when they connect with you, or they really have a different agenda? So this is where the naiveness comes in. We project onto others what we think they are because of what's in our heart. I'm a giver, so everybody is. Yeah. You know, in my background in the U.S. Secret Service, I was a polygraph examiner and an interrogator. They sent me to do the lie detector test, and I would help the U.S. Secret Service and local police. And I'd also go overseas to interview people who committed crimes, right? The mistake we make is we think there's good and there's evil.
20:40Evil people do bad things. good people do bad things good people take advantage good people will hurt you and so the the thing that i hear people and the mistake is they they're but they're so nice oh he's such a nice guy or she's such a nice person or you know i don't understand what happened it don't do that
21:05just don't do that don't do that but can't you go on the but then you have to always be on guard with everyone you meet? No, you need to be aware. You need to have your brain on. You can't turn it off because you're like, oh, everyone's great because it's not. There's a naiveness to it, and that's on you. Like, it just isn't. It's just the truth. And so when you live in that reality and you look at people, even if they're nice, a nice person can hurt you. A nice person can take advantage of you. Good people do these things. So I always tell people, look at the behavior. If that relationship becomes imbalanced, so if you become the giver, giver, giver, they're taking, taking, taking, you've helped create that imbalance.
21:47You also play a role in that. You also play a role in that. And if you keep giving because you're thinking, oh, I'll eventually get back, pause and stop. People show you. Pay attention. I always say, look at the behavior of the person. Don't label people. Label the behavior. Labels are for clothing.
22:09label what they show you, they will show you. So if it becomes one way which you help to foster, and that's okay, correct it and then pull back. You know, and even today I'm always aware it's not that I don't, you know, I don't want to believe in people, I do, but it's kind of like President Reagan used to say this, trust but verify.
22:35So let's say you started some type of giving taking relationship it doesn't matter if it's intimate or career or whatever but you meet someone and they're they're taking you're giving how can you start to make a shift so you can feel better without being a jerk or or saying you never give me anything in return and being like you're they're supposed to give you something in return how can you shift that energy it depends what you want if it's that much of a taker goodbye yeah like you can't change people and people people will see people and we're like oh they have the potential it's not do they have the potential what could it be what it was it's like what do you have now you must live in truth what is the reality not what you wish it to be not what you want it to be not what it was what not what they could be and then at the same time allow people to be what they are.
23:28This is what I have. What do I want to do with it? But we try so hard, I'm going to this, I'm going to shift, I'm going to do that, and then that's going to yield me this. You're 50 % of the equation, but they're the other 50. And they've got their own brain, their own intuition, their own intentions, their own whatever's going on. And then we're going to come in and what? And a little bit like how narcissistic of that, of us is that to think like, oh, I can do this. Let people be what they want to be. Now, if they want to shift and change to have a better relationship with you because you want to make that investment, make it.
24:05But some people don't. Leave them. And then now you have a choice. Do I keep you in my life? Okay. If I don't keep you, goodbye. If I do keep you, how much do I keep you or how much do I interact with you so that I am also healthy. Right?
24:26I'm curious, have you noticed differences from working in government or working in the Secret Service world versus, I guess, working in the civilian world afterwards and how people act and interact? Oh, yeah. What's the difference between the government world versus civilian world? Well, I can't say government because it's a big word. I can say U.S. Secret Service because everyone's right. But I'll give you an example. If a special agent said to me, Evie, I'll call you tomorrow at 9, they called me tomorrow at 9. If a special agent was like, I'll meet you there at 9, they were there at 8.50. Or in the civilian world it's like, I forgot.
25:08I went by Starbucks. You know, I overslept. slept like you showed up like you you you showed up and also there was a lot less personal stuff like you didn't bring your baggage with you everywhere you went really you burden other people it's okay to go to people for guidance once in a while but it's also how much are you going how much are you taking from people so if I come in with all my problems to work you're just like I don't want to stand next I'm gonna get one right in the head because she's gonna be thinking about you got to be on the ball so you got to perform also like sick leave did not exist you never called out sick at least on the president's detail you never called out sick.
26:02Sickly was something you scheduled. So if you were sick, you showed up either sick to the White House and maybe they would send you home or you were in the hospital. Right. You could not call out sick because if I called out sick, the whole system or structure that was created would collapse. Just one player not there. So you showed up. So in the civilian world, not everybody shows up so you choose who you're gonna be you could look at other people like but they do that i don't care about them yeah like it's always like what's your integrity what's your character you show people who you are so when people know that you're the person who's going to show up it's actually competence when they when they know you're going to be there you're reliable.
26:53You're consistent. You do what you're going to say you're going to do. That is huge. People today, Lewis, call me up and they tell me all sorts of stuff. I have people come to me and if I need something, people always deliver. And I was thinking about this. I'm like, how come, why is that? Why is it that if I ask somebody to call me, my phone rings, or if I call someone, they answer on the first ring. And I'm like, you know what? I'm like, because I brought that integrity and ethos with me and they're like I know she will come through and I think that's kind of the difference from the civilian world not everybody's like that but those are the differences I see how do you navigate it then you know being in the I guess the public world more rather than the private world where you're getting pulled in a lot of directions you're building your business your brands you have opportunities left and right people are trying to you know whatever get something from you or help you or say they're going to help you but then they don't deliver how do you navigate that emotionally or mentally in this kind of world now you you have to be careful like i'm always discernment discernment like turn that brain on and really think and listen to what people tell you i don't even want to say turn that brain off it's just like listen look look at look at you know Odysseus the ancient Greek saying look at your opponent it will tell you everything you need to know don't listen look at them when I say look like look at what they show you and everybody here's the thing everybody in pursuit of their self-interest right it's not always going to be in alignment with what you want.
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28:36They want this, but it might not be to my best interest. So you have to look at what they're selling you, what they want from you, what they're asking of you, whether you want to give them that or not. You don't just always have to give. You want to have that discernment. Make good choices. You're going to make bad ones or make mistakes sometimes. It's okay. And at the same don't be afraid to make mistakes. But I navigate carefully, because you're right, as you, and again, I was listening backstage, you know, as you move up, as you've done well, it's like, hey, Louis, remember me from middle school?
29:14You know, and I'll get, you know, messages sometimes. I got a message from a girl that bullied me. Like, hey, Evie, oh my God, remember me? We used to go to school together. Like, on social media, I'm like, this person? You know, she's remembering, like, rainbows and unicorns. And I'm like, do you remember what you did to me? Right? Those things will happen. But going back to originally what you asked me, the key is this. We don't bend the world to us. We don't make people adapt to us. We become adaptable to the world. So when I shift, I shift with who I have in front of me. This is not manipulation and this is not me pretending to be something I'm not.
29:57I look at the human being I have, I look at the behavior, and I adapt to them and to their world. I don't make people come to me. Really? No, because that's rigidity, and then I'm going to have problems. That's the mindset. Well, I'm just going to show up. I'm going to be me, and you know, whoever likes it. Good luck with that. And if they don't accept me at my worst, they don't deserve me at my best. That type of saying, right? Yeah, it's like, who do I have in front of me. Also, who is this person? What do they need from me? Sometimes you may have to work or do business with someone you don't like.
30:30You may not have a choice. That's okay. But then you adapt your behavior to fit that situation. That's what I mean by adapt. What's the environment I'm in and what version of myself do I need to bring to be successful in this environment? Some people, you have to be careful. Some people, you shouldn't share so much. Some people, you can be open with. Some people you can't go to to share a problem. Some people you cannot. You adapt to the world, and you will do great. It was the same thing that I learned when I did interviewing or when I dealt with the public. If I had somebody highly emotional, okay, I knew that I would have to, like, pull back on the Secret Service persona and bring more of Evie in the room.
31:19you know uh or um i would look at them like there was this young woman who you talked about you know sexual assaults against children i sadly i worked many of those cases there's so many out there and it's just such a prolific problem and it's it's just not talked about but i would work so many cases where i would have to talk to offenders and sometimes i would have to see who do I have in the room? One case, I had a nanny and she had done something to an infant. There was a fracture in the infant's arm and they suspected the nanny. State police interviews her multiple times. They're like, nanny's going to give you nothing.
32:06And the state police actually called U.S. Secret Service and said, look, we think she did it. Maybe the dad, can you send an aging up. And so I would go out to help with these difficult cases. And in fact, they were like, we're not sure if it's the nanny. We're not sure if it's the dad. So I remember, I was like, send me their statements because they gave written statements. And I read the statements. And after I read the nanny statement, I'm like, I want the nanny. It's not the dad. So I sit with the nanny. This is a young woman, single mom, overworked, two kids of her own. She's trying to show up to do babysitting to make a living.
32:41She's sitting in my chair and she's like this and she's talking to me like this. And I mean this girl looks broke. I mean broke and in so many ways. So I can't come in like hi I'm special agent so-and-so good to meet you have a seat. Hi I'm Evie. How are you? Can I get you something? Do you want something to eat? Do you want something to drink? please sit down. And she had a softer tone, I brought in my softer tone. That's what I mean by doctability. It was still me, but it was the version of me she needed to get through that interview. I also needed to know what she did or didn't do. So she had been interviewed four times by state police, gave nothing, hour and a half, I had a confession.
33:25I didn't even have to polygraph her. So people will reveal more and adapt to you more if you're willing to adapt to them. Let go of your ego a bit. Stop flexing. We don't need to flex so much. Is it more of the questions in which you ask or the energy in which you bring the questions that get someone to reveal the truth about something they're holding back? It is both. It is both. Actually, it's probably less of you asking questions and more of you shutting up. Shut up. It's like my ethos. When you talk a lot, you do not allow other people to reveal themselves to you. I don't like to talk. I know I'm on stage and I know I'm doing the talking with Moose.
34:21But in reality, I am that person who's just like, tell me about yourself because I don't want to talk about myself. Ask people questions, drop a question, and go quiet. Let them reveal themselves to you. If you want to know how to read people and if you want to know to gauge who's trustworthy, who's not, who's reliable, let them show you. But if you're jabbering away, you're not going to see it. So there's so much power in gathering. I call it gather intelligence, gather intelligence on the people around you, then you can make educated and well-informed decisions on who you should do business with, who you should date, who you should marry, who you should be around, and who you should have no contact with.
35:06But you can't make those decisions when you're doing all the talking. I really am a proponent of less, less, less, less. And honestly, people love to talk about themselves, don't they? Let them go. They're going to love you for it. Exactly. They're going to be like that lady, Evie. I love her. Exactly. You know, there are some people, Evie, that are that are masters at lying. And there's some people that are not good liars. And you can tell like, oh, there's something off. They have easy tells or they're just like, it's hard for them to lie. Right. They'll try, but you know something's off. But for those who are masters at lying, or maybe they just hide just enough of the truth that they just don't reveal certain truth.
35:46It's like a gray area. What's the tell or the question to know if someone is really lying? Okay, I'll answer this question, but I'm curious. What kind of liar are you?
36:00Everybody lies. We're all liars. Let's own it. I'm a naive liar. What does that mean? It means... It means if you ask... Here's the thing. When Martha... This is a commitment I made to Martha the day I met her. I said, you ask me anything, I'll tell you the truth. But you don't have to... But also, don't ask me... I may not want to have the conversation that you're asking me. So I may say, like, I'm not having this conversation. So don't ask certain things that I also know you don't want to know about my past. So it's more like... it's not like harmful stuff. Like, I just don't want it to be some ideas in her mind about whatever, past relationships or just positions, whatever it might be, right?
36:53It's like, okay, let's keep certain things out. Do you see how much you learn when you don't talk? So it's more of a naive... Exactly. I'm just sharing everything now. No, but I told her, I told her, you ask me a question, I'll give you the truth. But you ask me a question, I may not reply and say, you know, it's not something I want to talk about. also. So it's like I'm being naive or I'm just not sharing, but I'm being honest with you that I don't want to share. But she'll ask me a lot of stuff and I'm like, it took me a lot of courage in the first year of dating Martha where she would ask me very vulnerable, intimate stuff and I would just tell her the truth.
37:30And I was so used to getting screamed at in the past that I was waiting for like this reaction. And this is when I knew that Martha was the right match for me, when I could be fully truthful about anything that I'm afraid of or ashamed of or just like things that I've done or whatever it might be and her accept me maybe she didn't like it it's not like she was like oh I'm glad you did that or went through that experience but she was like okay I accept you like I understand this is part of your past and it's all the part of you and that's okay and I accept you and I never felt emotionally safe in intimacy because when I would share the truth I would always have some negative reaction or some blow up or frustration or sadness whatever it might be so for me it allowed me to continue to be truthful about everything and feel like oh I'm going to feel safe either way but I don't think you should be truthful to everyone about certain things you know it depends on context right so you know what's in well Martha's a great interviewer by the way.
38:34She's great. I need to meet her. She's great. She makes you feel very safe in her presence. So what she does and is what you should all learn to do is she doesn't show judgment. If she wants to know the truth about something you want to be non-judgmental. Even if that person is telling you something you don't want to hear. Let's say you have a partner or spouse or someone you're with, and you're trying to figure out if they're cheating on you. I'll make it super simple. And if they start to reveal stuff and you start yelling, guess what? Interview's over. So here's the question. What is your goal?
39:16If your goal is, I need to find out what this person has done so I can make a decision of whether I want to stay with them or not. I need information. So this is when you have to self-regulate and say, I'm not here to yell. I'm here to get intelligence, intel, so I can make a good decision. Because when you don't have intelligence, you make bad decisions. When people feel that you're going to judge them, they're going to stop telling you stuff and they're going to filter information. And then you're going to make bad decisions in life because you don't know the truth. And the choices you make are made off off of bad information.
39:53That's the key. Then when you get everything you need to get, then you can go. So there's a difference. Do you want to be right and ream the person or do you want to get the information so that you can truly know what to do? So that you can play chess. There's checkers and then there's chess. People that yell and scream and, you know, and I'm not saying that sometimes it's very emotional and we lose it. Self-regulate, like own it. I'll tell you the story. I had a boyfriend. Actually, boyfriend, we were together. He leaves me. He starts dating somebody else. Broke my heart. Broke my heart. How old are you?
40:29Roughly? I'm in my 20s. I'm in my late 20s. Secret service agent. I know. He was a secret service agent. He was as well. He was as well. He was as well. So he leaves me, breaks up with me, and then I surmise he's seeing someone else, and than he is. Goes to that person, sees that person. Then all of a sudden he reappears once later. Evie, Evie, Evie. You know, now he broke my heart. So of course, when they do the leaving and you're the one left, you're like, oh, right? He's back. But something wasn't right, right? And I'm a polygraph examiner at this point. So, and I surmised, I'm like, I think he's still talking to her, but he's trying to talk to me.
41:18Sneaky dog. Sneaky dog. So as painful as it was, I started asking him questions. You know, what happened? You must miss her. You talk to her. What was that like? And he starts revealing information to me. Now, my heart's broken as I'm hearing this. Don't get me wrong. But he starts revealing, yes, I'm talking to her, and I'm talking to you and I don't know what to do. I'm so confused. I'm like, must be confusing. You know? I mean, tell me more. So I'm sitting, listening through this. But you also emotionally, as a human, you probably miss him or you felt hurt or sad or maybe you still have some feelings.
41:58I'm from New York. I was doing every like F, F, F, like I'm trying to make this PG rated, this interview, but inside here I'm like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm New York. Do you have any feelings for him still? I'm going to key your card. That's what I was thinking. You're like, I'm going to key this guy's car. That's what we do in New York. It's like, I was playing it all out of my head. I'm listening to this because I need to know what's going on so I can make a decision. Because I don't want to get hurt again. Yeah. First time, okay. Second time, it's on me. So he reveals everything. He's like, you know.
42:29So in the end, it's like, I just don't know what to do. I don't know who to be with. This is where I got him. I got it all. I was just like, so it ends. I have everything I need now. so I still couldn't help myself. I'm not saying you should do this, but I was like, you know what, let me make it easy for you. I'm no longer a choice. I suggest you go to her. Wow. So.
42:54Now, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you it broke my heart, but at least I had enough information so I could make a good decision for myself. Because I didn't show judgment, because he could have started telling me this stuff and I could have shredded him. I'm Greek. I'm from New York. Forget it. How do you, I mean, how did you develop enough self-worth that once you were, I guess, hurt or left that you didn't feel like you were going to go back to the same person who hurt you? Because I know I've made that mistake in the past and I'm sure people here who have gotten back into a relationship where they're like, oh, this person, I knew they weren't right for me.
43:35I knew there was something off. It broke up and now we're going to go try it again but something's still not off. How did you get the courage or the worth or the knowledge I guess to say I'm going to be okay without this person even though they're saying they want me back and maybe I miss them a little bit but I'm going to be okay. Because you are going to be okay. In the end isn't it always okay? It always levels out right? It's always okay in the end. It always is. no matter what you go through, it's like this. But it's your choice if you want it to go like this or like this. There's something I adopted, and I really have to say that being in the U.S.
44:17Secret Service helped me adopt it. Unawaringly, it's a neutrality mindset where you don't have high highs and you don't have low lows. And you kind of live always in the middle. So even when devastating things happen to you, you don't drop. but at the same time like I don't celebrate high highs I'm not like oh my god you know like my book is gonna be this or my books gonna be that like you like you launch a book you want it to be great but you can't tie your happiness to how successful let's say the book is or isn't I hope it is great but if it doesn't do great I'm okay because if you're like that extreme where you celebrate the high highs then when you crash you're gonna crash but if you're somewhere in the middle and you have this, it's called, it's a neutrality mindset.
45:02Actually, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is the one who, who kind of like, I think you've had her on your show as well. So she's my doctor and she, she actually treats a lot of Navy SEALs, secret service agents, stuff like that. And she's like, you're, she's like, you're all the same. She's like, none of you get super excited, but none of you get devastated when something happens. Cause you start to learn to live in this middle space because what you don't do is you don't allow external factors to dictate, I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm steady. Now, I might do this here and there, but I'm not doing this, and I'm not doing this.
45:39The external environment cannot dictate, and truly other people cannot dictate where you're going to be, because people can come, and people can go, and although something may start positive, it may turn out a different way, and it's okay. Yeah. And going into the, you know, getting the intel from someone, you mentioned the word like not being judgmental. I think one of the things that Martha has learned through being an actor for a long time, she's always telling me when you're taking on a role of an actor as an actor and you're taking on a role from a script, you can't judge the person you're taking the role of.
46:17You can't make them wrong for being a drug addict or whatever it is because you're not going to be able to live their experience as an actor. I don't know if there's any actors in here if that relates to them. So maybe that's why she was able to be nonjudgmental with me because she's had that practice where it's almost like you're being neutral in your emotions about someone so you can get more information from them. It doesn't mean you accept them and you're going to be with them, but you're being neutral. You're being nonjudgmental, at least in the time being, to get the information. Then you can make your judgments of whether you want to work with them or be with them or not, I guess.
46:50Yes, it's like you need information to make good decisions. but if you're getting bad information, you're going to make bad decisions. It was the same thing in the interview room. I interviewed people who committed terrorism or were terrorist sympathizers. So I was ground zero on September 11th. The U.S. Secret Service field office for New York was there, and I endured that whole day. I lived through it, and I'm fortunate to be here, but I lost colleagues and I lost friends. now, I did not when I would sit in an interview and I was trying to get information on where the next attack would come from, I didn't walk into that room and be like, you know what you did?
47:31Do you know what your belief system did? Do you know what, you killed, you almost killed me and you almost caused this. First of all, who I would, who would I be making that whole interview about? Me. Why was I there? I was there to get information to find out where the next attack was coming from so more people didn't die. That was my goal. And so I would self-regulate. And in all the interviews I did with terrorists or people in that sphere, I never once ever, ever brought up 9-11 or my experience. Really? No, because I would make it about myself. What is your mission? What is your goal? I need information.
48:15and what I needed was information on when the next attack was coming. Because sometimes they'd come in and they'd say, oh, there's an attack coming. It's coming from here. And what their goal was is to get us to shift all our resources here so the attack could come from here. But that, I would make it about me. So it's like, what is your goal? Have your goal. What am I trying to achieve? It's not that you're not going to feel things, but when you know your goal, then you're able to steady yourself. So every time I walked in, what is my goal? My goal is to get to X. How do I get to X? I'm not saying I'm not going to be upset, but you must regulate your emotions.
48:54If it's like, well, this person did this to me, it's not my fault. No, no, no, no, no. You decide what behavior you're going to show. You decide what you reveal to others. Other people cannot be in charge of what your behavior is. think about how powerless that makes you and it just makes you just like like anybody can do anything to you now if you want to lose it if you ever want to like burn a bridge burn it burn it to the ground just make sure you are choosing rationally to burn the bridge and you don't want to go back you're not going back you could just be like i'm gonna burn this thing down and i'm okay with it torch it but make sure you're doing it because you you intelligently chose to do it not because you lost control yeah somebody got the better of you and you said and did things that you wish you hadn't done and now you're pissed at yourself it's going to happen to you but at least learn from that but don't what sometimes we do is like that person to this did this so i reacted to that.
50:04So then you're just a reactive person.
50:09Amen to that. That's good. I've got two final questions for you. This has been really powerful, Evie. I appreciate you. One of them is around the idea of adapting to the people that are in front of you. I think you said be adaptable to the world. Is that what you think you said? Something around that? How do we be adaptable and flexible around different individuals without feeling like we're flip-floppy, chameleons, kind of like snaky, like different. How can we be authentically ourselves, but adaptable to someone else so they feel it's also you're being authentic? First of all, be genuine. Just be a genuine human being.
50:50You don't have to agree with people, but you can be genuine. You can show people interest. You can be curious. Like you can be that. Be a genuine person. I my authentic self likes to wear leggings and, you know, no makeup, and I don't want to bring her like to a place like this, right? So be a genuine person, but you can be genuine and adapt. So if I have somebody who's angry, I'm going to adapt to like, all right, I have somebody who's angry, and they're yelling, or they're screaming, or they're venting. So I understand that I can't yell and scream and vent if I want to make progress in this situation.
51:30It depends also what you want? Do I want to make progress? So I adapt to that behavior. I understand, and I just know this through the training I've had, that when somebody's in that heated zone, you go quiet. Most people don't. Most people think, oh, you yelled at me? You this? Or I'm going to come back at you. And then you just go at it all day long. If you're trying to make progress, you're like, all right, let them vent. And then when they're done venting, it's like, and you've had it where you're like, I'm done, right? But when people try to tell you, calm down, relax, you get more pissed off because you just want to get it out.
52:07So let them get it out. So that's what I mean by adapt. I see what the behavior I have. I understand. Let them get it out. And then when they're done, now I can talk because now they're also ready to listen to me. Because sometimes we try to talk interrupt them. I had, there's a coffee chain, a big coffee chain. I won't say which one, But one of the managers came to me and he said, we need your help. He's like, I want to ask you for advice. He's like, we get customers who come in and they lose their minds when we give them the wrong drink. Like dangerously so. And he said, I have an example to give you.
52:45He said, one day somebody came in and he was given the wrong drink, the wrong coffee concoction. and he leaves, comes back, and he is livid, and he starts yelling at the barista behind the bar, and he's escalating and escalating and escalating to the point where he's like, I actually thought he was going to hit her. Wow. And he said, I'm ashamed to say I didn't know what to do. I was the person in charge, and I didn't know what to do, and no matter what we did, it escalated. So I said, okay, let me ask you something. When he came in, what did you guys do? Did you guys, you know, walk me through what happened?
53:25And when he comes in and he's yelling and we're telling him, you know, calm down. We'll fix it for you. Sir, there's no need. And he's like, we fixed it for him. We gave him the right drink. We even gave him like a credit. It didn't matter. He just kept escalating and escalating. And he's like, what did we do wrong? And I was like, the thing, it's not that what you did wrong, But the thing that happened there is he was pissed and he just wanted to be heard. And you kept interrupting him. He didn't even want, it wasn't even the drink because you gave him the correct beverage. He didn't even want that at that point.
53:58You just needed to let him vent. But what you did is by interrupting him and by even by fixing it and trying to get him to stop, he just went up, up, up, up, up, up, up. And it got worse. That's what I mean by adaptability. What do I have in front of me and I have to adapt to that situation? Now, the normal New Yorker in me would be like, let's throw down, right? But where would that get me? Nowhere. Know who you have in front of me. Know what state of mind they're in. It's also what motivational mindset are people in. What's going on in their head, not your head. But you also have to have enough, be enough of a centered person.
54:38not let your ego get in the way if you really want to be good at dealing with people your ego will sabotage you because it's like how dare you talk to me like that how dare you this how dare you that and that's not a great place to be because now you're really not going to make progress and it's like do you want to do you want your ego to be satiated or do you want to know what's going on around you so that you can make intelligent decisions and handle people well. I prefer the latter. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. I've got one final question for you. I've got one final question, but before I ask it, I know you have a program about the art of influence, understanding yourself, reading other people, all these different things.
55:25You've got an amazing program about this that people can check out right here. We'll also link it up on the recording for people that are watching at home later. So we'll have that up there if you guys take a photo of that. But I have one final question. You have so much going on. You're really a great resource for people and having them understand themselves, understand other people, navigate relationships differently. What is the thing you're most grateful for in your life these days?
55:59I want to answer it thoughtfully. I guess it shifts in that moment. Overall, I'm just grateful for my life. However that life turned out, I'm grateful for it. In my culture, I'm Greek, I'm Eastern Orthodox, and we grew up like if you want something you go to church you light a candle like we have like you actually light the candle it's very old school and then I was raised like you ask you know and whatever you believe in but in my culture it's like you ask God to like you know or whoever you pray to like to give you what you want and every time I find myself doing that if I want something and I go to put that candle in the sand we put in the sand I stop and I'm like I just want to say thank you for everything you gave me.
56:47I don't need anything.
56:57I think I'm thankful for, and when I say my life, I guess I've had like two key moments where really like, I thought my life would end. Like the job I had was very life and death. And so those moments always existed, but I had two like real moments where I'm like, this is it. I'm going to die. One was September 11th. And in that moment, I remember when everything was happening and I really thought I was like, I'm going to die. It was when the first tower was coming down. I'm like, I'm not going to live through this. And I remember thinking, man, I'm like, not yet. There's so many things I didn't do.
57:36I started thinking about the things I didn't do. And I'm like, you know, if I live through this, I'm going to live my life. I'm going to live. I'm going to do these things so that I'm okay to go the next time comes. And then the next time I really was going to die was when I gave birth to my daughter. Something happened during the delivery, and just my body just started to shut down. And I started, you know, my lungs started filling up with water. I couldn't breathe. So my oxygen started going down. My kidneys started shutting down. So my body started shutting down. and I could feel the fade. I guess it felt like a fade.
58:17And I remember, you know, I'm like, I'm dying again. Wow. And in that moment, I was like, but I'm okay to go this time. I did everything I wanted to do, or at least I tried. Now, of course, my husband's sitting there mortified because I'm about, you know, he's about to lose me. And I tell him the story later. I'm like, I was okay to go. He's like, are you out of your mind? He's like, you were going to leave me with the, you know, And I, you know, but it was the truth. So you could say those were horribly traumatic events. And it depends which way you want to look at them. And I look at them as two of the greatest blessings I've ever had.
59:04And so I am grateful for those moments because they taught me what my life means or what life means, and they show me that, you know, even to this day, I'm okay to go. Are you okay to go? If you're not, it's okay. You just have work to do. Get yourself to that point. I'm grateful for that. That's beautiful. Everywhere we are grateful for you. We appreciate you. Give it up guys for every one more time.
59:39Thank you so much. We appreciate you. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.
1:00:20And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
From the publisher
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Former Secret Service agent Evy Poumpouras reveals the hidden psychology of human behavior that was used to protect presidents and can transform your relationships. Through harrowing experiences at Ground Zero on 9/11 and a near-death childbirth, Evy discovered a neutrality mindset that keeps her centered amid chaos. She shares tactical communication strategies that extracted confessions from hardened criminals and explains why comparing yourself to others sabotages your authenticity. This conversation unpacks how to read people accurately, gather intelligence in everyday interactions, and maintain your integrity when others want you to break.
Evy’s BBC Maestro Course ‘The Art of Influence’
In this episode you will learn:
- How to stop chasing external validation and find peace through a neutrality mindset
- Why watching other people's work can secretly sabotage your creative authenticity
- The counterintuitive way to de-escalate conflict when someone is at their angriest
- How to read when someone is lying by using strategic silence instead of more questions
- The exact technique Evy used to get confessions after other interrogators failed
For more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1764
For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960
More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:
Mel Robbins – greatness.lnk.to/1761SC
Dr. Ramani Durvasula – greatness.lnk.to/1577SC
Jefferson Fisher – greatness.lnk.to/1737SC
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