How to Detach From Work Before It Destroys Your Life | Dr. Guy Winch

28:29I'll keep my eye on the boss at the next meeting, see what they're nodding, and try and conclude from that what are the kinds of things they like to hear versus not, etc. Once you have a plan, it eases the stress. You can stop ruminating because you have a plan. You've figured it out. But unless you pose it as a question of what do I need to do, if anything, and if I need to do something, how do I address it? And if I need to address it, what's the most effective way to do it? Once you start asking those questions, you're figuring something out. Then you're literally trying to get to solutions.

29:01You're cutting through all the angst along the way. There just seems to be a lot of work stress in societal, I guess, conversations a lot. People are stressed. People are getting laid off work, the economy, the uncertainty of the economy in the future, rising prices everywhere. If someone's in love in a relationship romantically, but they go through years of work stress, is it possible they could fall out of love romantically because of work stress? And the second part, is it the boss and the work environment's fault, or is it their fault? Okay. Part one. Yes. People can fall out of love when they're really chronically stressed because it's numbing.

29:50So it's not that they're falling out of love per se, it's that they're not feeling much. It's numbing. You're just dealing with the pressures. You don't have time to think or feel about other things. There's something that's useful about that, because if you're actually feeling how depressing your situation were, you might not be able to function. So, you know, so to numb yourself in order to get through it has its advantages, but that can again spill over outside of work and suddenly you become numb to many things. And that can be including your partner. I've worked with many people who thought they had fallen out of love or whose partner suddenly changed and became really annoying or really this or that.

30:34And I'm like, has your partner who changed or is it you? Like, is it your work that has become so chronic that you can't feel it. And then when they do get a break, when they do kind of use these tools to kind of lower the stress, then they start to just reconnect to the feelings. But also it's dynamic, because if you're the partner, and this person is standoffish, you know, they come home at the end of the day, and when you go up to give them a hug, they're stiff, because they're still in work mode. At some point, you're not gonna be a fan either. And then it starts setting up a difficult dynamic between two people.

31:10Interesting. Right? Gosh. So work is the enemy, huh? So again, a lot of this is happening in our head. Work is difficult. I want to be clear. Work is difficult, but it's how we manage it that's responsible for a large chunk of what we're doing to ourselves. Because we're not creating that separation. Because we're not creating the boundaries. Because we're not nourishing ourselves in the way that we need to, to be able to manage that. Now, there's a lot of work can do to make things easier for us, like exhibiting caring. Like there's a study that shows that when there's layoffs about to happen, and unfortunately, you know how these things work, layoffs are announced, but they're six months in advance.

31:54So let's tell everyone that they're, you know. Someone's getting laid off. In six months. Get to work, people. You know, it's like it's so difficult. And so, you know, it's so, now, the research is that if you're a personal manager who doesn't have any more information than you do, who can't control necessarily the budgets, who doesn't necessarily know who's getting laid off, if they exhibit caring to you, if they just say, hey, I know how difficult this is, how are you doing? That reduces stress by a huge percentage. Just caring. Everyone's empowered to do that. Every manager, every team leader is empowered.

32:29but every coworker is empowered to exhibit caring. And it has a huge impact in a great way. If someone has fallen out of love, you know, from work stress or just pressures of life, what would you say are a few steps that they can try to reactivate those feelings and emotions to fall back in love with their partner? You just have to lower the stress, right? I mean, when you're treading water and the water's up to here, you need to lower the water first. I mean, you need to get more breathing room. And there's a bunch they can do to get more breathing room because, again, a lot of that stress is spent on ruminating.

33:11Stress is very psychological, right? Like people say to me sometimes, like, what do I do about the fact that my job is just very, very stressful? But does it have to be stressful? Can you change the way you think about it? Yeah, yeah. Right. Let's say the job is typically, is comparatively stressful. Yes. The first thing you can do about that is stop telling yourself that your job is very stressful. Because what that means is that - It's reinforcing it, right? Yeah. It's reinforcing it, but there are many moments in which it's not. It's many moments in which it is, and there are many moments in which there's a lunch break in which it's not stressful.

33:45There are a few meetings which aren't terrible. But you're telling yourself that those two are stressful and terrible. So you're keeping yourself on alert and you're likely to perceive any negative thing that happens there as, see, that's stressful too. And that's so you're you're you're you're poisoning yourself into perceiving things that are more ambiguous or not that stressful as stressful. So don't say my job is very stressful. Say my job has stressful elements. I use firefighters as an example because I work with a bunch of firefighters. And, you know, is their job very stressful? They run into burning buildings.

34:18Yeah. Those moments are very stressful. Those moments are very stressful. There's a lot of downtime where they're just hanging out and just kind of relaxing and sleeping and waiting. And they always say to me, like, no, my job isn't very stressful. There are moments that are, but we are in the firehouse most of the time. Yeah, playing cards, hanging out. Yeah, and if it's my turn to cook, it's stressful because people hate my cooking. You know, like that kind of thing. But it's like, it's a great lesson I took from them. Like, yeah, if they can describe their job as intermittently stressful, then that's true of most of us.

34:48Yeah. And that framing alone makes a big difference. The framing of it is, yeah, it's finding ways to almost play a game in your mind when you go to work, right? It's like, how can I make today fun, even though usually it's stressful? How can I crack a little joke with a coworker in between a stressful moment? How can I shake it off in the bathroom and just kind of relax? How can I listen to some music that brings me a little joy throughout the day? How can I do something? How can I prepare my favorite meal for lunch so I know I have something to look forward to? Perfect. Yes. Every couple hours, like there's going to be joyful moments throughout my day.

35:23How can I send a funny meme to a friend, whatever it is, like, how can I do something where my day becomes more enjoyable, where you can actually enjoy work rather than just be overwhelmed and stressed by it? And again, it doesn't mean there's not going to be stressful moments and pressure filled moments and responsibilities, but how can you reframe the way you think and act every day, work and life. Absolutely. Find one thing to look forward to during the day. And it could be what you just said is a great example. I prepared my favorite meal for lunch, so at least I'll get 15 minutes to have that and I look forward to that.

35:59As long as you say that to yourself and you frame that to yourself, it immediately, it's amazing because people will think, well, that doesn't change anything. It does. Stress is entirely psychological. It is entirely our tolerances and what we're telling ourselves. The messaging is critical, which, A, is super useful because we can actually do it. Yes. And it seems like a cheat, but it's not a cheat. It's a cheat the other way when we keep using it in the negative way to stress ourselves out. We can reclaim that and use it to decrease our stress. What is the difference between two people who are going to the same work environment where one person doesn't seem like a lot phases them, even though there's pressure-filled stressful moments, and the other person is always on alert and overwhelmed and overstressed?

36:46What is the difference between those two people in a similar environment? Well, it's their mindset. Because the overly stressed person has come anticipating the worst. expecting a very difficult day. Now, by the way, if you have a very difficult meeting coming up, then you should prepare for it. You should raise your defenses and be like, take a deep breath and like, okay, I know this is gonna be difficult. You know what I can do? I'm gonna sit through it, and then I'm gonna text my friend to say, hey, can I call you for five minutes afterwards just to be able to complain about like, oh, no. You know, like I can do something like that.

37:26But they're setting themselves up to experience all of it are stressful because they're like, oh, I hate this. I hate my job. If you say to yourself, I hate my job, and you are not looking for another job, it's a problem. Yeah. Because you're just making yourself miserable. Don't stay there. Either change the way you feel about it or don't stay there. Or say, I hate certain aspects of my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't mind others. I just be more tempered, be more realistic. Yes, yes.

37:56What is the biggest challenge that you face personally with your psychological mind, the way you think, after four decades of studying the mind in psychology, what is your biggest struggle still?

38:12The biggest struggle I have is that I can't get away with much. Yeah, you're like, dang it. I know when I'm doing something incorrectly. I know where I should be doing something else. I know like really we're having a pity party now you know that's not like I can't shut the voice up in the back of my mind that now once in a while I'll be like I'm gonna feel bad for myself for an hour I'm giving myself the hour but it's it's it's because look emotional health in general and and having the right mindset you know this it's actually really effortful it's so much easier to just go with the misery you know that's the default that just let me just give in to it let me just like you know succumb to it it's actually really difficult to have to go no i know that's not the right thing to do i know i can get myself out of this mood if i just do a b and c so come on do a b and c work you know or when i get home and i like tired and then and I want to be just like, I just want to veg out.

39:18No, do something recharging, even if it's 15 minutes. Because you know the science, you know the research. I know, and if I haven't experienced it yet, then I constantly come across situations in life where I work with someone who had this three years ago, and I remember exactly what I said to them. Don't be a hypocrite. So that's my biggest struggle. Take it away with this stuff, yeah, yeah. That's hilarious. I have a practical question for you around relationships. Is it bad for a couple to argue over text or email versus arguing or communicating in person? There are some couples who are very explosive, number one, and two, who miscommunicate or mishear.

40:03Usually those things go together. And they're just not very productive. When they speak in person? When they do it in person. It escalates really, really quickly. Or like, wait, did you say this? No, I didn't say that. Yes, you did. And I heard, it's that kind of stuff. You know, people, when they come to couples therapy, it's remarkable. We'll have two people in the same room. We had an argument last night. One person says one story. The other person's telling you a different story. Now, it's not different perspectives. They truly misremember, one of them does, or both of them do, what was said, you know.

40:32So for some people, when you're doing it over text or over email, two things happen. Number one, you have to compose the text or the email. So that is immediately bringing you down from the kind of amygdala activation kind of thing into a little more of a calmer mindset because you have to sit and write it. You can, you know, and it gives you the opportunity to read what you're hopefully writing and to amend it. And it's a written record, so you can't say, you didn't say that. Yes, I did say that. Well, now we kind of know who said what. What a lot of people do today, by the way, is they'll put it into an AI and say, was this as hostile as I think?

41:13or do they really mean this? Yeah, people say it to me all the time. I put all the text into AI and AI thought I was right, that that's a hostile thing. And I'm like, if you tell AI, like, is there hostility here? AI will say to you, yeah, yeah, I'll find it. Sure. But that doesn't mean there necessarily was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, but, you know, I mean, by the time this comes out, AI will have developed and we never know. But the point is, for some people, it's more effective actually to do it. And I know people who naturally do that. They literally will sit in a different room and they'll be arguing like crazy over text.

41:48And it can be useful because the kids are like, my parents never argue, because they're doing it over text. Wow. Interesting. But you could also be explosive and mean over text as well. But then you have a record of what you said and you're like, oh, I'm a jerk. Look at that. It does kind of. You can't delete that. No, that's right. And it does kind of prevent you from like, I can't just say I said it out of anger because I wrote it and then I pressed send. So it's not that it's just going to... Stopping to still do that. Well, a lot of people say like, oh, if I could have taken the words back when they came out of my mouth, you can, you just don't press send.

42:21Exactly. Now, you mentioned AI. Is AI, do you think AI is helpful or hurtful in intimate relationships? The use of AI, people using AI in some certain ways or just AI in general? Reviewing text messages and conversations, asking AI for help from romantic stuff, like is this helpful or hurtful look i don't know what you hear i hear a lot of different things i rarely hear i asked ai to find the most romantic date i can for my partner i told ai everything about my partner and asked what can i do to delight them for their birthday or for an anniversary or for valentine's day like i i'm sure some people use it for that which would be terrific but most Most people are litigating on AI.

43:09Really? Yeah, the litigating, you know, like they're putting in all of this, like who's right, who's wrong, aren't they terrible? Are they not? It's for that. And for a lot of people who are not in the relationship, but want to be in the relationship, it's, well, do they love me? Do they really care? Really? They're asking AI. Oh yeah. Here's the texts. But are they into me then or are they not? Because I can't make it out. And so they're asking for relationship advice. Again, AI right now is still prone to tell us what we want to hear. And we're not very shy about indicating what it is we want to hear.

43:43So it's not the most, you know, like, you know, real necessarily thing. It'll give you a nice sanitized version of what you might want to hear. But AI can be terribly useful if you're actually using it to generate ideas. Like some people, you know, do it for like, I need to talk to my partner about something sensitive. What's the best way to phrase that? How do I bring it up in a way that's not hurtful? Or here's what I'm thinking of saying. Can that be offensive in any way? And if so, what can I do in a way that wouldn't be offensive? Yes. That's a great use. Why is it so hard for people to start a relationship and tell the person they're into, just getting started in a relationship, that they're actually interested in them, that what their intentions are, that they like them, that they want to create more with them?

44:30Why is that hard for so many people to just say how they feel about the person they're starting to date or see instead of questioning, does this person like me or should I say this now? Why is that so hard for people? Look, it's tricky because there's some people that if you say to them, hey, I like you, they will, for some people, it will make them like you less. because if they have any kind of self-esteem issues and you saying you like them, and you don't know about their self-esteem issues at the beginning, you saying you like them makes them have an unconscious reaction to, well, really already?

45:07I don't know what's wrong with them. You know, like something - Well, maybe they're not the right person then. Perhaps. I do think those things work out for a reason. That's psychologically wounded. It's like, do you want that relationship? That is true, but they still think that they want that. It makes you emotionally vulnerable, you know, for sure, because now you're saying like, and my issue with it is that if you're starting to date someone and you like them, you really have to acknowledge that you don't know them well. Of course. At all. So saying I like you without qualifying it. True. Saying like, hey, I'm really just getting to know you but so far I like what I see so far.

45:45Or I've enjoyed our first few dates so far. Still know nothing about you. Yeah, except for three days But I think it's fair to say, you know, I still don't know you, but so far I like it. You know, like that seems more, you know, balanced. Yes. I love you. You're amazing. Or yeah. But here's another issue that I come across. People, because of social media today, are learning incorrectly a lot of issues about dating. so somebody showed me a you know a text that they sent um someone that um that their friend said so this person had a date with someone it was two dates and after that second date they said hey i really enjoyed the date i really like you and then that person took a other person took a step back and when they not go so but they took a step back they're like now Now they pursued and they did get to see that person again.

46:46So they asked them at some point, why did you take a step back? And that person said, because I showed the text to my friends and they all were like, oh my God, they're love bombing you. Red flag. They're love bombing. Wow. I liked you. I enjoyed our dates. I really hope we can get to see each other again. Was considered love bombing, which obviously it's not remotely, but like they learned the term on social media. So they misapplied it. And then now that's a warning sign. so so people are also misinterpreting man that's crazy what do you want them to say uh just nothing no engagement or just say see you next time like what you know what are you supposed to say hey i had a fun time when can i see you again yeah that's it you can't say i liked you you you can but but this is when you get a weird reaction to that understand it's not you it is not you Should people be asking their friends about everything the person did or didn't do after the dates and asking them to interpret when they're actually not love experts?

47:49It's not only that they're not a love expert, they have biases, right? Are they happy in their relationships and they're really happy for you to have one or they are unhappy in theirs and therefore maybe not be entirely happy for you to find love in yours? or do they have some jealousy issues that they're not really expressed, but they're there? Or are they in a miserable point, a jaded point in their dating life or in their relationship life where they're just like thinking, ah, all relationships are. Like, you know, everyone has biases. And you have to account for the biases of the people you seek counsel from at any stage when it comes to relationships because they will bring those biases to the advice.

48:28And when someone is getting into a relationship and let's say they have unhealed emotional wounds, they haven't faced any of their emotional wounds at all and they're getting into a relationship, what could you expect that relationship to happen once they get into it? Based on what those wounds are, they're gonna be some issues that come up because it's not gonna be smooth sailing. I mean, you know this, relationships take a lot of work and they take a lot of honesty. And first of all, with yourself, And they take a lot of mutual guidance, right? You're building something together. If you have certain emotional wounds, then you are not building something necessarily in the right direction or correctly or what you think is correct might not be or what you saw at home from your own childhood, from your own experiences might not be a great model.

49:21And so, like, it'll tilt things in a certain way. Now, it's never too late to get a handle on those. which is never too late to understand what your emotional wounds are and how they might be impacting your relationship and your feelings about the other person, you know, and what you tend to assume like, oh, this is my love language. A lot of people, you know, love language is like, you know, just avoid my wounds, and that's not a love language. That's, you know, that's... Don't do anything to annoy me. Yeah, that's not a love language. If two people get into a relationship who have unresolved wounds or traumas, and you could give them a game plan on how to have a healthy long-term relationship, what would be the actions they would both need to take to start healing those wounds, assessing them, integrating the healing journey?

50:12What would that look like? Because most people come to a relationship wounded. We probably all have certain wounds. Even if you've done some work on yourself, you probably still have something lingering or something comes to the surface eventually again. So what would be a good game plan together? If, if, and I say if, because I don't know a lot of couples who do this, if they could start by acknowledging to themselves and to one another, acknowledging overtly, hey, I have not been great in relationships in the past. I have some stuff. You have some stuff. We both have some stuff, but there's potential here.

50:51Let's start with that acknowledgement that we have some stuff that might impact us along the way. And let's keep an ongoing dialogue about how things are going, what feels good, what doesn't, where our stuff might be rearing its head, and what we can do about it. Let's keep a spotlight on that. Not every second, because that's exhausting. But let's intermittently do check-ins. Let's be open to that kind of feedback. Not that you're bad. I'm bad, you did something wrong, I did something wrong. This is our stuff manifesting. You could just use this neutral term of this is our stuff, these are our wounds manifesting.

51:33How do we manage them in this context? Mm-hmm, that's a good idea. I think acknowledging from the beginning, I think I told you this last interview that when I started dating Martha, I said I want to commit to therapy in the beginning of our relationship, where I can personally grow, you can personally grow, and we can grow together with whatever stuff we have going on. and try to create more alignment, more agreements from the start rather than a year or two in, frustration comes about. Now we have to kind of resolve something together and create agreements later. Let's start with it now. For me, that was the best thing that I've probably ever done in a relationship just by, it just made us appreciate one another also.

52:13Like, hey, we're in this together. We both got to figure stuff out and we got to figure it out together. That has been really supportive of our relationship. And again, it doesn't make anything perfect or whatever, but it makes it smoother. Right. And it makes the challenging times easier to manage. Right. And when something comes up, you don't have to start with this whole preamble about, look, there's something I need to bring up. No, no, no. It's just like, there's an openness to it. Absolutely, yeah. How can time travel reignite love or passion in a relationship? So a lot of times people will say to me like, we've been together for a while.

52:51It's not that the passion is gone, but it's like, we're both a little fatigued with a relationship with each other. And sometimes an exercise that I suggest to couples, which is a difficult one, it's a production lift. But if you can do it, it's remarkably effective. and that is like reenact not just necessarily your first date but one of the earlier dates you had in which you realized you started to have feelings for one another and by reenact i mean reenact go back to the bar or to the club find the same kind of clothes that you wore you You know, go to, and if the restaurant doesn't exist, find a similar one.

53:40Like literally try and set that it was Christmas and they were this and they were there. Go to the place, do the thing, like, and do this long setup of when you're in the moment of, you know, because you're coming to, you know, to a date. So, you know, start separately. Try and get into the mindset of how you felt at the time. like wow I you know this is our fourth date or our tenth date and I kind of really like her but I really liked him but and then try and get it and then literally go through that date really again it really helps you kind of remember how exciting it was at the beginning how you know how like this this new love that was starting to kind of you know appear and start you know the infatuation that was starting to kind of take over those are the really fun moments of dating right the initial infatuation and you want to make them linger and they don't linger that long but you want to try and make them do that but try and recapture that uncertainty of it you didn't know that you're going to end up together you didn't know that it's all going to work out so have the uncertainty I don't know I mean I really hope this is the one but I don't know and then try and go through that first magical moment and in prepping for it it might take a lot of prep based on where it was, who it was, who was there.

55:01But couples were able to do it, were able to really kind of take it on as a fun project. And even in prepping for it, they were starting to get into the mindset. Interesting. What have you seen by people who have recreated their kind of first date moment? With some couples, it's interesting because they had to go back, let's say, 20 years in fashion. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they had to go to like vintage stores to kind of find the thing, you know. It's like an adventure though, right? It was an adventure, but some of them chose to keep that clothing and to wear the clothing every once in a while because it reminded them, or to bring souvenirs back that they didn't think to take at the time, or to have reminders around to kind of remind them of that exciting kind of time.

55:47In terms of the emotional first aid strategies, what would you say is the most effective science-backed tool that you've either developed or learned that can help people reclaim, I guess, autonomy over their thoughts and emotions that are keeping them stuck in life in general? So to me, when people are stuck in life, it's because they're dealing with some of sense of failure they're feeling unsuccessful in some kind of way something's not working and they have some kind of story about it and that story is what's keeping them stuck really because the story is like i can't do this so this doesn't work out for me or if it's the workplace well the boss doesn't like me so i can't get ahead you know there's some kind of story and they're stuck in the wound of it.

56:43They're stuck in the feeling bad of it. Now, I believe, and this might seem very mechanistic and cold in some way, but I believe that in, like, limits to how long you get to feel bad about certain things in life, like failures or like unsuccesses. And based on the level of that, give yourself an hour if it's small, a day if it's bigger, a week if it's very big, but beyond that if you're just feeling bad or demoralized or helpless you you're not getting anywhere so i believe and i do that with myself it's one of the annoying things that i force myself to do which i really you're like i can't ruminate for days i know do an hour yeah but the point is like when it happens i then determine how long i gave myself because otherwise i can keep stretching it just one more day no this is worthy of this much and and then after that the has to be a pivot and the pivot has to be an analysis that is self-critical free because what what really sabotages us is when we start looking at what's not working and i'm an idiot i'm you know like i'm so stupid why am i a loser why like all that stuff it has zero value it's not motivating it's not enhancing our self-esteem and it's certainly not helping our confidence yes right It's literally just like, oh, you know, it's choking us.

58:14So it has to be a critical free analysis. And the critical free analysis is what's not working for me? Where are the obstacles? And then you name each obstacle. For example, boss doesn't like me, so I can't get promoted. You name each obstacle. And then for each one, you start brainstorming. How do you get around that obstacle? Boss doesn't like me. It's two things. How do I change to another boss? Or how do I get the boss to like me? because you can change the boss's opinion. So who does the boss like? Why do they like them? What are they doing? What are they having? You know, if, okay, the boss is like misogynist, he doesn't like me because I'm a woman, well, right, then I might need to change because I'm not gonna be given the same opportunity here.

58:56So then I really need to shift my strategies, but then I'm starting to think about what are my options. The minute you're starting to think how to get around an obstacle, then you're already out of paralysis. You're already not stuck. You're already not demoralized. and and you know we all know that yeah failure is the best teacher etc that what people get stuck is they don't know how to implement that because they start to look at the failure and that just makes them feel crappy so they stop as opposed to like no you're feeling crappy because you're beating yourself up as you're doing it approach it like a detective don't have feelings about it just analyze what i mean it sounds like we're talking about getting self-respect how important is having self-respect in all relationships.

59:37And what are the fastest ways that you see people losing their own self-respect? Well, one of the fastest ways people lose their self-respect is by having this internal voice of a bully. I'm not saying harsh, I'm saying bully. They are the bully to themselves. They are a major bully to themselves. There's so many people. How bad is that for self-respect? Well, if somebody outside were, you know, if somebody else were like constantly in your head, because that bullying goes on a lot. Like I know people who literally will call themselves loser 30 times a day. Can you imagine if you had somebody following you around in life going, loser, loser, loser, loser, you'd be like, this is torturous.

1:00:16But we do it to ourselves and many people do it now. They say to me like, well, I'm trying to motivate myself. I'm like, are you though? Because would that be motivating for anyone else if you did it to them? Well, no, but, I'm like, there's no no, but. You know, like, well, I'm trying to be a coach. I'm like, that coach will get fired right away. Because a coach is trying to increase the confidence of their players, set a high expectation, tell them they can do it, not tell them they can't. You know, if you're like, oh, nothing works for me, you know, like I just, things never break my way, those kinds of thoughts, then things never break your way, what's the point of trying?

1:00:54It almost sounds like what we say to ourselves and how we say it to ourselves is one of the most important things we'll ever do. It is the most important thing. Because look, I'm all for, you know, hold yourself responsible, hold yourself accountable, set a high bar, set a high expectation, but do not bully yourself, do not chastise yourself, do not name call yourself, do not focus on, like I know so many people who walk around going, well, I'm ugly. And I'm like, how is that possibly useful to you? And I don't care what you look like. You should never be saying, I'm ugly. find something you like about yourself and go, I have beautiful eyes.

1:01:33The rest is not great. What have you seen psychologically when someone says, I have negative self-talk all day long, or I say I'm ugly or I'm whatever, not attractive, I'm a dummy, I'm a loser, whatever these are. How badly does that hurt someone emotionally when they speak poorly to themselves? Like what is the science or the research or the stats around that? Do we have any of that? It's abusive. Really? It's the same. I mean, it's even worse than when somebody does it to you externally. Because when somebody does it to you externally, you can go like, you know what? Screw them. But when you're doing it to yourself, you don't go, well, screw me.

1:02:15And so it's really toxic. It's absolutely damaging. And it's chronic for a lot of people. And they come up with justifications about why that's a useful thing or why they deserve it. oh but I deserve it like do you now because you're that terrible a person and well I am terrible like again you have to drill down to like what makes you so terrible other than the fact that you're suffering other than the fact that you're really wounded other than the fact that you're really hurt whose voice have you internalized that treated you this badly that you're continuing their work for them like it's terrible it's absolutely terrible and that's something that, and it's a difficult habit to change because it's habitual and it's a running commentary, a running commentary of your entire life.

1:03:08But you have to get annoyed at it. You have to see it as abusive. You have to see it as some kind of part of you that's bullying yourself. You have to give it a face. You have to give it a name. You have to give it something that causes you and you have to develop an antipathy for it. You have to develop a disdain for it. You have to develop an anger toward it. But it's still part of you. So you're putting an anger towards a part of you that's been doing this thing, right? Is it a part of you? It's something you've internalized. It's something that you've developed. But is cancer a part of you?

1:03:40Maybe it's not holistically a part of you. It's attached to you. It came from you. It's in you, but it's not a part of you. It's a part that should be exercised. It's not the healed version of you. It's a part that should be removed. Yes. I think of it as a cancer. It's something you should remove. Interesting. And when we can start to do that with that voice on our head, that's putting us down. So many things, you know, unlock afterwards, right? What is possible for people when they stop allowing the negative voice to take over their mind and their life and they, they remove it from themselves and they start using a more empowering voice.

1:04:19What happens for them after that? So if you've tied your legs together, right, like when the sack races we used to do as kids, if you're in a sack and you're trying to move through life, you're not going to get very far. But when you step out of that, and again, stepping out of a sack is a much easier proposition than what we're talking about. But when you free yourself up from those shackles, from that abuse, then people are stunned because suddenly like there are possibilities. Suddenly like it's almost like a little scary because like, oh, I don't have excuses right now. I don't because sometimes it's excuses.

1:04:54It's like, oh, I'm terrible. I'll never because now I don't have to try. I don't have to fail. I don't have to be disappointed. But you're miserable. So what's worse? Not trying. You know what I mean? But suddenly there's a freedom. There's an anxiety that comes with that freedom. But there's a sense of freedom there. There's a sense of relief that comes when you really start to develop. And by the way, when I'm saying develop an intolerance for it, that is a lot of mental discipline. That mental discipline, you are literally doing cognitive retraining. That's like, if you want to build a muscle in the gym, you've got to go to the gym every day.

1:05:28You've got to go a lot and you've got to work out a lot. This is 24-7 being on guard. and you'll miss it at first and it'll be there at first. But just as soon as you catch it, like, no, that's not true. That's not a voice I want in my head. It is not useful for me. It is damaging. It is abusive. I don't want to live with a bully. Why am I living with a bully? Yeah. And, you know, I have compassion for people that maybe had their parents were bullying them or they lived with siblings that bullied them and it became part of their narrative. So it's very hard to unwire, I guess, that narrative, especially if you didn't have the tools or the training or the support when you were younger.

1:06:05So you may be in your 20s or 30s or 40s and still living with that because you never had the tools. 50s and 60s. But look, I sometimes say to them, imagine someone you love and imagine you saying that to them all the time. Yeah. You'd be horrified. You would feel so cruel. That's what you're doing. It's sad. How can someone not beat themselves up for doing it to themselves for decades? If they're hearing this for the first time and they know that they say nasty things to themselves, they know that they say, I'm ugly, I'm fat, I'm a loser, I'll never amount to anything, whatever it is that's in their mind, and they've been the bully to themselves forever.

1:06:47How can they not beat themselves up even more and say, look at the life that I wasted because I did this to myself for decades? How can they, you know, let it go and not - Look, you don't get to like beat yourself up for doing something for decades if you're still doing it. First stop. And that's not an easy thing and that'll take you a while to get there. And then hopefully you were successful. Oh, we can talk about like, oh, that's a shame that I kept doing that for a long time. But if you immediately go to, no, you're right. I'm such an idiot for doing that to myself. You're still doing it.

1:07:17You just found a different angle.

1:07:22Yeah. That's probably one of the hardest things for people to do. For me, it took me a long time. It's extremely difficult. Because most of my school days, I just had confirmation of why I was so stupid. Because I would get bad test results, and people would make fun of me, and I was just like, I'm an idiot. I'm stupid. And that was the narrative that I would say, right? And it took me years to try to give myself a little more grace and say, no, maybe I'm not good there, but I'm good over here. Let me focus on the good over here and keep compounding that good, and find other things that I can prove on, and see the growth that i've had maybe i'm not where i want to be but i'm not where i once was and it's focusing on the improvement the growth where i am improving things like that you know it took me years there look i'm a relatively intelligent person and there are things that i am really stupid at there are very simple things that i will get wrong all the time that are so ridiculous my family even and they just wait for me to do them because they just stand there and start laughing, like, oh my God, you can't do that.

1:08:24How are you this smart over here, but over here you're not, yeah. Right, very few people are smart everywhere. Yes. There's emotion intelligence, there's regular intelligence, there's practical intelligence, like how you manipulate objects in the world intelligence. So we all have our areas where we're not that strong and our areas that we're strong. So we can all find the thing we're not great at or that we're quote unquote stupid at. And obsess over it. But it doesn't mean we're stupid. That's a generalization. it just means that I'm not great at school you weren't great at many of the things you are great at but you know again it took you a while to find that balance and to realize the fact that I wasn't great at school doesn't mean that I'm stupid because I'm very good at some other things and it's true of everyone we can all find the thing that makes us feel stupid but we can probably find lots of other things that do not and so don't generalize and give yourself a label because of the one or two things and just because you're not good at one thing doesn't mean you're a failure in life you know and you can just acknowledge oh i'm not that good at that and that's okay right i don't find the things you are yeah emphasize those i don't have to feel bad just because someone else is better than me at something and and i'm not that good at it yet you know it's just like you don't have to make that your identity also uh mind over grind how How to Break Free When Work Hijacks Your Life.

1:09:42I feel like the next four years, as we get into 2030, there is going to be a lot of challenge and stress that could potentially come people's way if they're not prepared for it. I don't want to put this on everyone and say that it's going to happen, but I feel like if people are not emotionally and mentally preparing, the way you teach about in this book, the way that you've shared in this interview, and they just keep grinding through life. They just keep, ah, I'm just going to one step in front of the other, and I'm just going to grind at work and grind at home, just get through it. Eventually, they're going to collapse.

1:10:19If they don't learn these strategies now, to be able to apply them now, when there are pressure-filled moments in life, when pressure comes at them, whether it's work or the environment or whether it's the economy or whatever, health challenges and family, like when that pressure squeezes you, if you're not emotionally and mentally prepared to take that pressure, it might break you. It might snap you and it might crumble your relationships, everything. And so I really hope people get this book and I hope they rewatch and re-listen this episode and use some of these tools now because when 2020 hit, it broke a lot of people.

1:10:59and I just have a sense that in the next four years, there's going to be something. We don't know what it is. Economically, work-related, health, you know, something. AI, who knows? And I want people to be prepared. And the best way you can prepare is within your own mind and your emotions. And something that we've talked about many times in the show, something you've talked about in this book. So I want people to get this book, check it out. It's called Mind Over Grind. And I want to acknowledge you, Guy, for constantly showing up and trying to serve people the best way you can. Because you have been doing this for four decades.

1:11:37You've gone through your own emotional and mental challenges in your own childhood, in your life. And you use that pain as part of your purpose to serve people, to give people tools. So hopefully, they don't have to go through what you've been through and other people have been through as well. So I want to acknowledge you for your constant devotion to serving people's minds and emotions to feel more joy, love, and peace in life. I've asked you these last couple of questions before, but I'm going to see where you're at right now before I ask them. People can follow you on Instagram, Guy Winch.

1:12:13They can also go get the book and your website. I believe it's guywinch.com is your website. Yeah. They can go anywhere and get the book, Mind Over Grind. And check out your other books as well, which I loved, How to Heal a Broken Heart and Emotional First Aid. Is that the title? Yeah. Some great strategies in both of those. But this one is called The Three Truths, which you've answered before. But I'm curious with the wisdom you have now, because you're last day many years away from now, and you could only leave three lessons behind to the world. What would those three truths be for you? So I think the number one, and it's going to be a different answer than what I said before, but the number one thing, this is, I guess, from learning from writing this book, is that we cannot control most of what happens around us.

1:13:02But we can control this. We can control not just how we respond, because that's the thing. We can control how you respond. But you can control how you think. more than we actually allow ourselves to do. So it's not just how we respond, but how you think. That would be the first one. The second one would be that we really have to look at what our thoughts are dictating in terms of our reality. Because our thoughts create perception. Our thoughts create stress. our thoughts create. So our thoughts are actually dictating our reality, and we have control over them. Not entirely, obviously, but we do.

1:13:53And most people are like, well, I can't control what I'm thinking. Like, you can. And sometimes you can argue about the thoughts that you don't like. For example, we spoke about this idea of, like, you know, the inner critical voice. It's going to appear, but you can argue with it. You can silence it. You can shush it when it... Shush you. Yeah. when it shows up. So, you know, we are more empowered than we think. And the third, which is going to be super trite in a way, but the older you get, the more you see it, is that what matters in life are two things, your relationships and your experiences.

1:14:34And your accomplishments themselves matter less than the experiences they afforded you. you know your success you know like you can make a lot of money but unless that allowed you to have certain experiences or to cherish and cultivate certain relationships it's not what you will remember you know on your deathbed kind of thing so relationships and experiences are where it's at and relationships and experiences don't depend on success. That's true. And anyone can have them if you prioritize them and realize that's what it's about. It's beautiful. And final question, your definition of greatness.

1:15:19My definition of greatness is, and this might be similar to what I said last time, is constantly learning about you, about the world. It's a constant curve of self-improvement. It's a constant curiosity of what do I keep working on? What do I keep improving? What do I keep learning? What new thing is there for me around the corner? That desire to want to get better, to want to perfect, to want to make things. And again, it's a shifting target because life throws all kinds of stuff at you. So you might have to pivot and suddenly work on this rather than that. But whatever the challenges are, to want to master them, to want to master yourself and your responses to them to want to improve and become the best version of you that you can be.

1:16:06That's greatness. Yeah. Appreciate it. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Amazing. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier. You want to make it flow. You want to feel abundant. then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

1:16:46Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:17:25And now it's time to go out there and do something great.