How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

32:03And they're competitive by nature. And it's great that you have a team that that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to a large audience. And there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this, independent artists maybe, you know. And what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I want to give it every chance that it can reach as many ears as possible and let those ears decide. And I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it? if I believe in it and I love it enough that I feel it's worth releasing it's worth being out in the world I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or it doesn't I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it there's some songs that I'm quite proud of such that if they were if they were heard by a hundred people I would say that song is still of the quality that I wanted it to be the quality of the work doesn't change whether it's listened to listened by a million people or a billion times, or it's listened by a thousand people or a hundred people or 10 people.

33:10The quality of the work doesn't change. Wow. So I just try to bring it down to, am I happy with its quality? That's beautiful. I think that's a good lesson for any artist. Yeah. Or author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes. If you have a career or business around it, sure, you want to figure out a way to make money and survive. But I think you have to be proud of the quality of work, no matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy. Totally, totally. Does it represent you? That's beautiful. Yeah. Man, Andrew, there's a lot I would love to talk more about with you. We'll have to have you back on another time.

33:47But I want people to check out your new album, Unreal Unearth. I want them to come to watch you live on tour, man, which I'm going to do one of these days. Please do. They can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that. That is right? Yes, yeah. Unfortunately, not many shows left. You get notified when you do do more. Exactly. I'm curious, in the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success and experience and making all this art? And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today? Stuff I've learned about myself is, I mean, I've done a lot of personal work.

34:33I used to think that realizing that creating, maybe this is one thing I can offer, that being creative and creating. And my relationship with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself. What do you mean by that? That it's a thing. It's like whether it's self-doubt or it's self-criticism, an internal monologue that is largely negative. Something I took for granted my whole life. It didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I realized I honestly felt I was never going to write another song. Really? Yeah, sometime during the pandemic.

35:25And I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore. And I felt I'd written my very last song. And I had to come around to, okay, no, this is just, it's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me. So I think that was, in the pandemic, that was part of it. You weren't able to tour. You weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that tour is a distraction, but you weren't able to, you had to sit still now. Yeah. And hear everything coming in. Yeah. And in some ways, tour is a magnificent distraction. And it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires, you know, and every day is another little crisis, you know.

36:08And, you know, I still get, I won't say, would you call it stage fright? But like, I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terrified. You know what I mean? Every day is like, oh, yeah. Yeah, 10 minutes before stage. Yeah, I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Yeah, yeah. There's an element of nerves. And I'm not able to do this. It's so funny. I was joking with some of the band. And this is maybe a musician thing. We had a few weeks break. I was a month into, a couple of weeks after break. And I was trying to think. Now, this is maybe because a lot of playing is muscle memory.

36:41You don't think about when it's automatic. But I was trying to think to myself. It's like, how do I play that song on guitar? I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement. But yeah, there is always this creeping voice that's, you know, and it's, look, it's immaterial. You find your way around it. You step over it, you know, and you ground yourself and stuff. But yeah. But creatively, I think when you are exactly as you described, there was no distractions, like during the pandemic. But tour is, there's plenty. There's always something to do, whether it's press, promo, meetings.

37:29I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time. So that's looking at artwork, video edits, mixes, mastering. and I'm constantly, I'll be honest, like constantly a little bit overwhelmed, like just a little bit under overwhelmed, you know? And like, I'm just, the nose is like, you know - You're on the line. It's a nostril, you know? You can barely breathe, but I'm - Yeah, yeah. And part of me, you know, is also realizing, okay, is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here? Interesting. Because you didn't want to face yourself maybe. Yeah, you just, yeah, you operate well in that space or at least you function in that way.

38:04but yeah. Maybe it's not well, but you're like, you're operating. Yeah. You're operating or you're, you're, yeah, you're operating. You're getting everything that needs to be done, done. So pandemic hits and that all stops and you have to face yourself. I guess so. Yeah. What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour and you weren't seeing people and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet? I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of, it's just a lowness, you know what I mean?

38:43Just a sort of a very, you know, and I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is, you know, will be familiar with it, but it's this kind of, I just slowed down in all forms and I just felt no rush. I saw no ability to write. And any attempt to make it seemed impossible. I also fully believe, and this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not, I did not know how to write a song. Despite all evidence against it, I was like, oh no, I actually don't know how to do this. and so How many songs have you written at this point? Oh like you know probably you know over a hundred or you know obviously ones that don't get released but like yeah but like there's something I do all the time but there's something enters into the mind and then I realize it's like oh no this has nothing to do with this this is something else so again it's about relationship with self you know and so that was something I learned What was your relationship with yourself like?

39:56I think I didn't have much of one you know so uh and i it was more just realizing okay i'm gonna have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself you know and actually kind of put you know begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself and actually so that was the beginning of of of uh one of the more significant changes in in my life i would say is is tending to actually you know into by the time i was 30 actually like like tending to let's say mental health and a relationship with self and which i had i had just avoided doing you know because i i could sort of i felt maybe i could work my way around it or i could i could you know but once you can't run anymore you know it's i'd sometimes describe it as a hamster wheel had to stop spinning you know what i mean and so you then you're forced to sit in your little cage you know know what I mean?

40:53So, and kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, something not right about this. What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing yourself? I think it was, I'd say you could say it was defined by a large, I had a very largely a combative relationship with myself. So I was absolutely at war with myself constantly. How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that be? It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought. So it's like my brain was kind of split in two that I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that.

41:35It's like, no, that's not real. That's not true. This is the truth. This is real. Yeah. Back and forth. Yeah. Yeah, but at times, I guess like your state, you're not always, sometimes you're a seven, some days are a three, some days are a nine, some days are, you know, creatively, it's like that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful. No, it's not. You know, so I couldn't hold one thought at the same time, oftentimes. So it was challenging. I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of my whole experience, but that's probably for another...

42:20But no, it definitely put roadblocks up. So that was a big change when I started to address that. How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't... I mean, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland growing up, there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity. And, you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life? There wasn't, there wasn't really, you know, and, and especially it's not something even, I mean, more so my parents' generation would have had any sort of, uh, not, not really, you know, And not in a kind of a, this is something we can talk about.

43:06It's a day to day thing, you know. Can I suck it up and let's not talk about it and keep moving forward and just, everything's good. Very 1970s. Yeah, yeah. But I'm very grateful to sort of, to have access to more, to be more present in the day to day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just, um, uh, yeah, just having this kind of. Wow, man. Yeah. So you're allowed, I mean, I'm, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I wrote a whole, I've read a whole book called the mask of masculinity. Okay. Um, seven years ago now. Yeah. Where, cause growing up, I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man.

43:49I could never cry. I can never show my emotions in school, sports. and it tormented me inside. You know, it tormented me emotionally, feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong, but it wasn't my truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate therapy myself and reflect and heal. And it was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks and open myself up to myself. Turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them.

44:40and start to heal the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of and started to integrate my current self with my younger self and mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the nervous system Yeah. Yeah. To create alignment. Yeah. With the present and the now. And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free. And as I'm sure you're, you're in right now, healing is a journey and I'm 10 years deep in the healing work and I've never felt more free.

45:25Also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work. Yeah. Yeah. Like I still go to therapy every month. I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way. And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art. And I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering, it seems like, rather than peace and joy.

46:02But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself and just probably a messy process. Yeah. The whole sharing from or writing from, also, let me just, I just want to address, it's like, thank you for sharing that. And it's beautiful. It's also very similar to what you describe. And I think 30 also took me 30 years of living in a way where I realized, I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore. And I've waited too long to feel like I can cope. You know what I mean? It isn't interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for.

46:54Yeah, 100%. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But I think a lot of people, I don't think that's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that. You were being an artist and it took off. Yeah. But I think a lot of people in society and the world are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have flashier things or success to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something. Yeah. And the more I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem. You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point. Totally.

47:31And I think it's largely unconscious, this driving, you know what I mean? But that sort of thing of driving. And I do think about this a lot, whether would I be driven to be, you know, because surely the work, it's his question, surely the work is enough. If I just loved songs and I just wanted to write them, do I need everybody to hear them? You know, what's the part of it? Why go on tour? Why do this? Why do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, why did I need it? So there is, I sometimes wonder, you know, what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know? or what, you know, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view, and I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally there is, I think you might be correct in that.

48:23All of us are driven in some way from maybe some unobserved place that in some way, and all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved. We all imagine this picture in our heads of that arrival point that just never comes. Or you get there. You'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind. But the feeling is not there. Or it's still not enough. You still want more. Are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing? Oh, they're getting this opportunity, right? Yeah, totally. And it's something you shared about that thing. It's kind of that self-parenting thing of getting relationship with yourself as a child.

49:06And a friend of mine once described, described it quite, quite beautifully. I have to say of like getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding, pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them. and to stand in space, whether through the window of their home or at some event that they were at and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there and to say, hey, look, you know, look where we are. You did this, you know. And I'm quite moved by that just to bring your child into that and go like, because there's some, there's some, sometimes there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, no I took I took myself away from these circumstances and I did all of this on my own but to turn around to your kid and say hey you know I want you to see this wow how how great you did you know and how you you did this you know and we did this together isn't this cool and just to to let your kids sort of smile at that that's beautiful and him yeah and I think it's that one I think that's a that is a life-changing relationship thing you know I think with yourself if you can do that.

50:22But again, yeah, I mean, I had no language for this until I was after. A few years ago. Yeah, until a couple of years ago. So I'm still, my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know. Wow, man, this is beautiful. I'm so happy you're talking about this though. It is. And don't feel, and you know, don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough. And you may never need to do that publicly either. I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. It's not a pressure here for that in any way. But it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self.

51:02That's what I'm hearing you say. Yeah, I think so. I'm realizing that it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like to not do it. I think when you start on that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself. you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option, you know, or not, you know, or it's an option, but you've done that, you know what I mean? Or for what's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life. And you feel the experience of living that you would like to get to. It's like you realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this.

51:42What do you think, Andrew, is available for you emotionally, internally, and externally in the world as you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself, what do you feel like is available for you or your mission? I think this is maybe necessary for the work as well too, for being creative. I just want to walk in step with myself in a way that feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work. And to, I guess, to feel at peace in whatever the work is that needs to be made. Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to where you fall afterwards?

52:27That's not really what I wanted to do or, but I did it for ego or because whatever reason. It happens. I won't give examples. Sure, yeah. It happens. Or you catch yourself. You catch yourself on a thought of like, yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone to turn. You know, it's like I always approached things with like, leave no stone unturned. It's like, you know, just do everything. Yeah. Every opportunity. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. That can be draining and exhausting. It can be draining. Yeah. And learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with.

53:02Yeah. Or a habit of. I think, yeah. Or I'm a real, and I think this is, I'm proud of this trade in myself, but that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour, I can focus, hyper focus on something in those last few, you know, but what happens is sometimes I'll agree to do something. I'll be fully in my mind of like, I do want to do this. It's like, will you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break while I use this time to work? And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. And then afterwards, I realized, okay, why am I feeling exhausted?

53:42I'm burnt out. And now I can't function. I can't work as I want to work. So I do want to address, hopefully, get my favorite thoughts. This has been a powerful section, so I'm grateful we're talking about this. But I have a question about a couple of other things around your performance experience. I feel like, I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. I'm curious for you, what has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different here?

54:27I'm feeling something different. There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to. or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the words. Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe-inspiring while performing? There's definitely moving experiences. I was going to joke that I think the spiritual experiences for it to be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've been in such elation. I've been like so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy. and all enjoying the same thing.

55:07And maybe I was going to make a joke. It's like the preacher is the least spiritual of all people. The person at the top, everyone else is engaging in a spiritual experience. The half preacher is, I'm just kidding. But I think when I'm on stage, there's a kind of a flow state that you hope to come into. And that's another thing where it's like calming my mind. And this is all connected. It's all connected with mental health. It's all connected with like wellness, but then also like mindfulness as well, too. And mindfulness was a big change for me. It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was, you know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just.

55:54Yeah, it can happen. It can happen and realizing I, you know, remaining grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not, so meditating before shows I find really, really helpful. How would you get distracted on stage before? It can happen where, again, if I'm releasing music, there's a lot of emails that I haven't answered. I swear to God. Right before you're like, oh, thinking about it. Yeah, but you could be on stage in the middle of a song playing a chord and singing lyrics. And in your mind, I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back.

56:34Come on. Really? Yeah, yeah. Holy cow. Yeah. Oh, no, you're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing. How is that even possible? How do you stay? I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you got to send to Larry? Yeah. And management or something? it's not great. It's like, and I don't, I think that, I think the show, potentially my worry is that the show, I think because it's muscle memory that you just can do it. But it's, it doesn't, you don't feel great about the show. You don't, because you weren't present to it, you know?

57:10So, it's been a while now since I would, there's also, that's kind of before, that's when my mind was totally just like haywire. And so, mindfulness, you know, meditation, stuff and super helpful that helps you keep keep you present now on stage on stage yeah

57:31i think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity more peace more presence more compassion more self-awareness um and it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has yeah um i would say emotion is energy in motion so it has to move and if it doesn't move it gets trapped inside of us and it can become disease you know disease or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason right so you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body and there's many modalities to do that you do breath work you can you know do yoga you can go to boxing even and have an intention behind your practice you can uh i don't know meditate go to therapy there's plenty of avenues but one that is uh underused is creativity you can create and move the energy and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else and you can feel energetically lighter and more free.

58:52What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process, that is giving you the most healing personally? Like when you wrote it, you felt you were healing. Every time you read it or perform it, you feel like you're healing. what is that poem well i have two immediate answers that come to mind the first one is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness but i think that that's too easy of an answer okay and the real answer is going to sound cliche but it's everyone and then the next one the one that hasn't been written because it's the most current and in real time to my life and whatever it is that i choose to create around is something that i need to express it's a breadcrumb trail that i am following i'm the first person in my audience so i'm not thinking what other people want to hear i'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality, and I put it down on paper.

1:00:07And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space. So every single one is a healing process. And it's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing, because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing. Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, how do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them. If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So how then do we get down to the source of them?

1:00:46So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from? That is a great question. What you have to do is you have to hold two truths in the same space at the same time. Give me an example personally. Holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness and gratitude, but I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later.

1:01:33It took me a long time to catch up with the peace. So the peace was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray simultaneously. And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen to really like see and be seen to be willing to be open to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength it's scary as and it is always worth it wow so when did you write this poem about your dad i think i was in my mid-20s really yeah so like 20 years ago something like that I'm 45 yeah yeah so when you wrote it um how long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him how how long did it take you to be like I'm at peace with this I forgive I'm at peace well I think uh people think that peace is a destination or like a product.

1:02:45Peace is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers that you have to keep uncovering within yourself. So right now I can say I am as fully at peace as I have ever been. I can't say that I'm fully at peace. But one thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not in real time or in retrospect has become a part of the quilt of who I am I don't like to compare circumstances I don't like to compare pain but I've had a lot of pain in my life and everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now so if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am.

1:03:33Wow. Yeah. And so you have to accept it in order to integrate it in order to alchemize it in order to move on with it. What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe took you a long time to overcome, or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome. And you really wish didn't happen in the moment and maybe you still don't wish but you know you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain i think there's a lot of them that come to mind i'm not going to share some of them because i'm not ready to put them on display yet but i go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal you know when I created the Never Ending Now album I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it I know remember you know I was there yeah because you were one of the few people that I sent it to yeah and was willing to trust because of your integrity because of our friendship and because i love you yeah and i know you've been through real things yeah and so i was like okay but it's scary putting it out there a hundred percent yeah i'm taking my own medicine right you know so i was like all right let me i finished this thing this work of art that was like a reflection of my path to self-love and love with a partner through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that had with my wife yeah um and then i was like i don't know that i want to show this to people or even weirder monetize this thing and leave it open for people to criticize it to judge it to validate it to compliment it it didn't really matter what their response was i didn't want to externalize my self-worth that way because it was so close to my heart and then i was like all right i'm going to send it to like five people and i sent it to five people uh including you and uh mike posner who's a great friend and mike was the first person that got back to me and my criteria for sending it out was okay if one person hears the album and hits me back and says hey this was moving and meaningful to me like this landed then i would put it out but if everybody was like yeah this is good right i really like it i think you should then i wasn't gonna do it and so mike hit me back right away and he was like literally he goes if you don't put this album out he said i'll pry it out of your cold dead hands and then i sent it to you guys and you listened to it and had you know, similar but different response.

1:06:42Yeah. Then I was like, all right, let me lead by example, even though it's hard and scary. Why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment tied to it in some way? Why is that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists? because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are but the thing is like if i would get rejected if i put this project out and people don't respond to it or worse they really don't like it then at least i know they don't like something that's really me i mean i know that the art is separate from me it's not really me but it is as close as tracing paper could come when i made it right and so i'm like all right if they don't like it at least i know i showed up rather than making something that's perfect that everybody's gonna love and then they say wow i love this thing and i love you but I don't even feel it because I was never there.

1:08:01Yeah. It wasn't fully authentic. It wasn't fully you. Yeah. Interesting. How do you do that? Like, for example, I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years driving over here and the courage that it took to do that. Well, what was and is your process? I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, through friends, through family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was so depressed. You know, this, this line from like Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like, depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing.

1:08:41Something like that. It's like, you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like, you've been wearing some mask, you've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you. And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid if you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me. And then I would be alone. And then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life.

1:09:17It's of the fear that i had and so i think i just felt like i'd rather be alone um and no one like me than everyone know you know just parts of me and not all of me and i think it got to that point when i hit 30 that i realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of and i wasn't willing to face them myself let alone share them with other people and that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore. Now it was scary on the other end because I didn't want to live alone and I want to have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there that you may not be liked or understood or loved.

1:10:02You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be, you know, taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear. But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me. I very much relate to that. I have a line that says you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like, uh, that disguise thing that you're talking about that character that you're playing and you're doing it for good reasons, And survival, you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from.

1:10:49Exactly. But the thing is, it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor. Draining. What was that poem called? I think it's called Birdsong. You know, I never really, like, name my pieces until I actually put them out. Can you share that one? Can you perform that one? Do you have that one? Yeah, I actually do.

1:11:12The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming. I listen without even understanding. The truth without agenda is authentically astounding. It makes me think of cheetahs. They don't run for our approval They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal It makes me think of wolves They don't howl for validation They don't have to get the perfect pic to post on their vacation It makes me think of eagles They're not soaring to impress me Although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet ski My point is neither one of them would sell me shit on Etsy, and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy.

1:12:14Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not. Wow. Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut, chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut? and for what? It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up. In this moment, I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough. I'm dismantling my image. We are perfect in our flaws. Birds don't care whether we listen. They don't wait for our applause. I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the walls. So if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls.

1:13:02you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved otherwise it's your representative they're thinking of but to truly be yourself you have to let go of what was the past is like a prison it's an echo repeating just because cause cause we are many people in our lives so i'm not one to judge but But if they love one part of you, it's limited to what that does. I want your whole soul. I have no goal. Show me the unseen stuff. Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect makes me want to kick my feet up. No one's living in a catalog Ikea dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase a hundred zebras?

1:13:53have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell a caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly so if you go to heaven are you still aware of hell

1:14:07wow when did you write that one i don't remember is it like a few years ago or is this like a decade ago i mean no it's like a few years ago it's more recent yeah i was on the phone with a friend of month and uh the birds were just like really loud and during the conversation i said something about the birds aren't singing to win a grammy wow and then i thought you know what i like that that's good that's a good life pause the conversation i wrote it down and then started to build on it later of all the poems that you've written and performed how many of them talk about love i think all of them in some form or fashion but i think some of them are self-love some of them are romantic love some of them are love of god some of them are our love of uh humanity nature all of it what would you say how long have you been doing poetry would you say like officially you know as part of your thing not just like i did it when i was like seven a little bit here and there but Like, what was the year where you're like, oh, I'm doing this consistently?

1:15:21Do you remember? I mean, I think I'm past 30 years. 30 years. Yeah. It's like one of the longest, at least internal relationships of my life. Wow. You know, my relationship with rhythm and rhyme. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self-love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn?

1:15:50Well, it's something that I try to teach other people. Like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person and why we created this journal in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there, I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying, don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great. And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn over and over and over again, because if I sit down and I say, I'm going to make something great, I'm just getting in my own way. I'm turning my back on the muse.

1:16:42I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me are poems where I'm surprised at where they go. Really? Yeah, because I don't like get overly strategic before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into. So it might be, okay, I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea, you know, maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, oh, they're not singing to join a grammy and you're like okay where could i take this in other areas of life is that kind of how it starts or yeah okay the birds are this the wolves this the bears this you know it's like let's keep the analogies going and then yeah it's like basically you're you're building um railroad tracks and you're the railroad tracks and you're the train and you're the conductor and you're the beginning middle and end the destination wherever you wind up and you're also none of those things because you're the the observer wow um so it's a spiritual practice creativity you have this other uh do you call them poems when you put something online like a instagram post is that like a short poem or is that like a phrase within a poem usually well yes it's a usually a phrase within a much larger poem which is to be quite honest very annoying to me you know i want of course please follow me on instagram but it's like i always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is and that's why i'm excited to put out actual like finished pieces that people can experience on their own time so it's a great window into my work but snippets.

1:18:31It's not the full thing. You have this poem within a poem, I guess you call it, about love that you shared recently. It said, love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on your belief, so it will bring you to your knees. Love is weak. Love is lost. Love is grief. Love is loss. Love is risk. Love is real. But love is worth the pain we feel. where did that come from let me say the next line yes and i won't let the fear of losing you limit how i'm loving you oh my gosh

1:19:12can you share that whole poem yeah yeah

1:19:19let me actually give you the behind the context give me the context so i was doing this collaboration piece um and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project i don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter yeah yeah but they had liked this particular poem that had already been written and it ends save the day with love so we're on this like planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing and one of the guys goes hey is there any way we can change the final word because he goes love is a bit soft and he goes i want to end on something that has more like strength and pizzazz and i was like no because it's not your poem first of all yeah no respectfully second of all I don't look at love as soft I said I look at love as hard and he goes okay and then the conversation ended and I hung up and I wrote this piece love is not soft love is hard love is not smooth love is scarred love is not perfect love is flaw Love is not quiet.

1:20:39Love is loud. Love is not pride. Love is proud. But love is not certain. Love is doubt. And love is not leaving. Love's turning around. Love's learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle. Love is rough. Love is not fragile. Love is tough. Love is not thinking that love is enough. So I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up. Love is a revolutionary act. Love is an attack. Love is not abstract. Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no. Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low. Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go.

1:21:30Because love is not easy. Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong. Love is context. Love is not black or white. Love is progress because love is not a product. Love is a process, yes? So in the simple moments, when the chaos fades away in the silence of the evening or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way and how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive. That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on my belief, So it will bring me to my knees.

1:22:23Love is weak. Love is lost. Love is grief. Love is lost. Love is risk. Love is real. But love is worth the pain I feel. And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you. I'm going to love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you. I'm going to love you harder more than ever before. I'm at peace with knowing love is war. That's what we're fighting for. so love harder first yourself then your family your friends your co-workers your neighbors in your community then try to love a stranger try to tap into your empathy imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy now try to love the people that you don't love at all even people you don't like they probably need it most of all and if you can't love them big see if you can love them small see if you can hold compassion for the holes that they are and they are but love is not soft love is hard love is scarred love is flawed love is loud love is proud love is doubt and since love is most important when we do not know how I will choose to love you harder in the never ending now.

1:23:49Wow. Oh, yeah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward.

1:24:30And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.