Jameela Jamil: REVEALS the TRUTH about FAME, Cancel Culture & Learning to LOVE Yourself

31:48I have an opinion on everything. It's like most of us. I didn't understand. Hey, don't give your opinion all the time about everything i just thought really chatting but i've never understood my position i've never understood my fame happened so fast for me both times it happened in like england and the us that you can't grasp it you're just in your house i'm not a jonas brother who's going out and like people are chasing me down the street i just feel like me i still live with my flatmates who i've known since i was 18 you know so i i couldn't understand that i'm i couldn't really understand that my position has changed stop just chatting to everyone as if you can because everything you say becomes a headline yeah i just didn't realize and then by the time i did it was too late wow and it is what it is but now i've overcome the trauma of that and now i i feel very grateful for it because it has given me a clarity that and the pandemic and watching the horror of the way that everyone behaved on all political sides has given me real motivation to now spend the rest of my life working on bringing people back together.

32:57Wow. That's inspiring. I'm laughing because I just wasn't sure where you were at in your life personally, but to hear this really inspires me. And what sounds to me and what I'm hearing you say is for many years you were calling people out on out and in out and in you were you were you were speaking out about certain people and now what I'm hearing you say is you're trying to call people up to something greater of what's possible for them in a more thoughtful inclusive way calling people together yes it's like we are struggling with so much bigger than the stuff that we're fighting about right now.

33:40It is happening imminently. The healthcare crisis is imminent. The homelessness crisis is here. It's arrived. We're fighting about things that might happen 10, 20 years from now. And we need to be talking about what's happening now, what's happening, what's going wrong with the water in this country, the hormones and the food, big shit, like all these different things that are killing people now. I just want us to come together. You are aware of and involved in so many different causes and things around society. And there are probably a lot of people watching or listening who are angry about something in the world, whether it's in their own community or around healthcare, around fairness, equality, reproductive rights, whatever it might be, financial inequality, all these different things.

34:30A lot of people are angry about something. And what I see is a lot of people who are angry about that thing, want it to change now. Like you talked about, like it's got to change now, which is really hard for big things to change overnight. But how can people who are upset, frustrated, worn out, exhausted, and feel like it's just so unfair, certain elements of whatever system they're frustrated with, how can they, if you can only share one message with them on how to really be effective on making a change and the thing that matters to them most, what would you say to those individuals? Well, the first thing you need to do is identify that that's a cultural pattern in our generation, right?

35:11We want 1 ,000 channels. We want 1 ,000 shows to be able to stream at the same time. We want to be able to have 600 different people on a menu that we can swipe through who we're going to go on a date with tonight. We have Amazon Prime. It delivers today. We have, you know what I mean? Instant gratification. We don't do slow weight loss or weight gain anymore. It's like, where are the shortcuts? It's a generation taught to look for shortcuts, to look for a quick fix, to look for instant gratification. And so recognizing that as a cultural phenomenon that's never existed before, because pre-technology, we just didn't have access to it.

35:50i'm sure the inclinations was there it's never good for you we have too much content we are overstimulated we're spending too much time on screens we're seeing mental health issues we have too many dating options too many apps people are lonelier than they've ever been they're having less sex than they've ever had the birth rate i guess is declining like all kinds of things are going wrong from having too many options too much convenience right we are seeing people's health decline because of fast food and so when we look at people losing weight with these extreme measures be it pills injections like very very severe diets that are unsustainable five percent of which work 95 of which fail like those aren't good for people they can lead to eating disorders or heart problems all kinds of different health issues if you're taking substances to speed up your weight loss i was talking in um i was talking in the senate like not long ago about the fact that in in muscle build products that are predominantly uh targeting boys in a lot of them they're finding viagra and heavy metals all just quick fix quick fix quick fix there's no such thing as a quick fix nothing that has ever been done at speed can ever work.

37:08It always causes mess, chaos and harm. So while I understand wanting anything fast, patience and discipline are two things that are no longer encouraged in our society. We don't even allow for human beings to grow and change anymore. We expect them to instantly be updated with all of the perfect opinions that are constantly changing all of the time. So we have to take a step back and look at the fact that we are a sick society. Mentally, physically, socially. And so once we're realistic about the fact that the quick fix doesn't work, I think we're able to return to, okay, what does incremental change look like?

37:53The only kind of change that ever lasts, incremental change. It's kind of slow change. It's slow change. It's slow bit by bit by bit by bit. And that allows you to have time to be careful. It allows you to have time to consider. It allows you to have time to change your mind. Strategize, test it out, see how this feels. My rise to fame way too fast. I had no idea what the f*** was going on. I felt like I was in the middle of a tornado. I didn't have time to look at myself or look at the way that I was coming across or look at the impact to the people that I most wanted to reach. I didn't want to reach the people who already agree with me.

38:24And now those are the only people that are probably listening to my podcast that I mean to be for everyone. But I couldn't see it. It's too fast. Nothing fast ever works. Wow. Nothing good comes from it. So what does incremental change look like? Incremental change looks like starting to educate yourself. It involves listening to people's opinions who are opposed to you, which you're not supposed to do. Not just shutting them out. Nowadays you're not even supposed to follow anyone that has a different opinion or who did something wrong. Because then you'll be judged for following those people follow those people to learn from them read their stuff watch their content develop critical thinking skills as to why you disagree with them research learn when you have a family member who says something that you find egregious that you disagree with whatever political side you're on Learn how to debate learn just run away and shame them and make them wrong Learn the facts.

39:19Learn how to convince each other again, not just shut each other down and dispose of each other. Change the circle you're in. If we can all just focus on the circle we're in and stop fighting with celebrities who we way over-deified anyway, and stop fighting with, you know, our great-grandfather who isn't, you know. Did something in the war back in the day or whatever. Yeah. Like, let's just let's just work on our inner circle and try to make an influence there. Change the way that we interact with others, because that will change the way that person goes on to interact with someone else and open up our scope of who we are.

39:57Yeah. Willing to just listen to. Because I sometimes wonder if the reason that both sides are so afraid to listen to each other is because they're worried they might be convinced or they're worried they might find out they were wrong. Ooh, and then I like that. And whether or not that's true, that's not a good place to move from as a human being. Your beliefs are shaken. It shakes your identity. Yeah. And this is just it, right? So I was talking to this psychologist in DM on Instagram, in which she said that identity and opinion have become completely interlinked. She sees that a lot with the people who come into her office.

40:30Explain that more. So it means that like, you know, back in our way, we grew up not knowing anyone else's political ideology or what their parents represented or what their beliefs were about almost anything we used to just have polite meals and then you know what I mean like arguments about like more trivial things it was a simpler time it wasn't necessarily a great time but it was a simpler time and we were able to acknowledge that if someone had an opinion we don't like that's just their opinion that we don't like and we had friends who might have been deemed problematic or different but we kind of accepted that well that's just like a part of them I don't like but I can see the rest of the individual.

41:08Now we can't see the rest of the individual anymore. The bit that we don't like tarnishes everything about them and erases their history of anything they did that was good. That's what I would like. It's scary. It's scary. Like we see this all the time with public figures. It's like someone can do so many great things, and then they make one mistake, and then we disregard everything they've ever done, and we want to get rid of them without thinking like, oh, a lot of people might suffer if we completely get rid that person because they're actually quite helpful. We used to be able to see when someone was more helpful than harmful and see that we can just work on the bit that's harmful.

41:42But now we just throw everyone away. And so I think that is something that concerns me. And so when it comes to the identity and opinion, is that identity and opinion is no longer a separate thing. Because of social media, identity and opinion have kind of like woven together. And now they kind of exist as one. So before when someone would say, oh, I disagree with your opinion, it just meant I disagree with your opinion. But now it means... We can still be friends. I disagree with you fundamentally. I disagree with who you are and who you've become. And I'm defining you as this person. I'm freezing you in stone as this person forever.

42:18How long do you think this will go on for until people wake up and say, oh, I was doing this to other people and now it's actually coming back to hurt me? It depends on how many of us with public figures work to raise awareness and raise the alarm about this. Wow. Not many people in Hollywood are talking the way you're talking right now. It's because you're still congratulated by isolating and demonizing. That's why I popped off about the Met Gala because I was like, hang on, hang on. This is an industry and this is an audience that really makes a big deal of not being able to separate an art from an artist.

42:56They have been in the last four or five years, right? Yeah. The last seven years in particular, it's like, we can't separate the art from the artist. We're demonize and ostracize whoever we can and whoever we want to and whoever we're just going to completely separate ourselves from and we're going to drop them and we're going to do this or the other and what happened at the metgala is they threw a party for a bigot who was so cruel about fat people who people claim to care about now uh so cruel about immigrants so awful about the me too movement and you've got me too feminists and media that pushed the me too movement celebrating this man at the highest honour, the biggest party of the year.

43:34And then you've got everyone online who loves cancelling people and who loves digging up people's tweets from when they were 12, applauding, doesn't matter what he said, he's an icon. What are we doing? Pick one. How can we expect anyone to take us seriously if we are this hypocritical and this wishy-washy? We've got to be consistent. I'm fine to separate the art from the artist because the longer I'm in this industry, the more I realise that they're all terrible. Who is? Like the greats. The greats. They've all got something. They've all done something. Sometime. Hugely inappropriate. Or awful or they were horrible.

44:10So the only way you can enjoy art is almost to separate the art from the artist. And the longer you're around, the more you start to realize that and the more that comes out after they've died. It is what it is. So what is it? Are we separating the art from the artist? Or are we not? we have to decide i hate hypocrisy because it means that all the other things that we're doing that are good can't be taken seriously right we open ourselves up for ridicule but the word that i keep hearing you talk about or insinuating is grace right yeah and it sounds like you've had grace for yourself through what you went through and your rise to fame a couple times plus your you know the roller coaster when you were on top you know when people were coming at you in 2020 and dealing with all that.

44:57You had grace for yourself. You had grace for your body image. You had grace for your health, your stress. You've had grace for others now in certain ways. And what I'm hearing you say is we just need more grace in general for ourselves and others. No, we don't just need more grace. We still need more order. We still need stopping. Accountability. And more accountability and more self-accountability, less hypocrisy and more like organizing for what the actual end goal is here what are the big things we're fighting for let's stop like focusing in on the minutia let's work on the big things that hurt everyone in our society and let's work together on that let's organize and then on top of that in order to be able to do that you need more grace doesn't mean you can't criticize each other right it doesn't mean you can't get pissed off with one another it doesn't mean you can't fight it just means that the fight has to end at some point there has to be a road back we have to allow for a space for atonement and we have to recognize that there is a part of us that enjoys watching other people fail and do something wrong and make mistakes because then we don't have to think about all the terrible mistakes and terrible thoughts that we've made yeah and all the mistakes we've made it's like oh good everyone's looking at them so no one's looking at me right right right and so the reason dogpiles happen mostly it's not because everyone cares that much about that thing we can see that the thing that we want to say has been said a thousand times but we want to loudly from a tribal perspective from a tribal place rather we want to loudly exclaim our disapproval so that we announce which tribe we're on.

46:47We want to say, I'm with the bigger crowd, so don't include me in any of that. We want to be safe. We want to be in the tribe. We don't want to be left on our own to be eaten alive. And what I feel very sad about is that more and more, when someone gets into trouble for something that isn't like egregious physical violence, the kind of thing where they've really destroyed someone's life where that person might never recover we just leave them for dead when i got piled onto i got left for dead and racists and bigots and misogynists were all able to come for me and no one from my side stepped in how is that and then as soon as i overcame it everyone came back why is everyone came back and it was like it never happened and they were like oh i'm so glad you came back through that thing and i got marvel and then i was back on the cover of vogue and i was having a great time and all of a sudden and all my friends came rushing, not my like real friends, they never left me.

47:45Celebrity friends. But all these people, all these media figures were suddenly all over me wanting to be in pictures again. And I was like, Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes I now get into trouble for trying to show public grace to someone in a moment of their disgrace. And I understand why I get into trouble for that. But this is, it might be my mistake, but I'm not afraid of mistakes. I believe in my heart right now that love and extending a tiny bit of grace or hope to someone is the best way for them to come back from that thing and do better. And that seeing someone go from doing something bad to doing something better is much more healthy and helpful for our society than just watching them disappear.

48:32100%. Seeing change. Seeing change. My audience love watching me change. they love that i used to be a misogynist and i you know i'm growing less and less problematic as the time as time goes on but they enjoy the fact that they're watching me become not only a better person but happier happier healthier allowing myself to fail like getting rid of the shackles of the perfection that women are held up to like the standards of perfection that women are held up to. I've never felt more at peace. I've never felt more love. I've never felt more connected. I've never been more open to a fist bump. I'm English, but I'll take it.

49:17But I've never felt more connected to the world. And I think a large part of our loneliness as a society is coming from the fact that we are starting to, we're being trained and encouraged by social media and media and algorithms to look at each other as enemies. We are not each other's enemy if there are people far more powerful whose names we don't know deliberately who are controlling all of this and making us stare at each other rather than looking for them yeah and i want to go after them so expect now that i've said that to be another huge random media scandal this is powerful i'm curious where do you think you'd be if you didn't have the uh you know the attacks of everyone coming at you in 2020 where do you think you'd be right now without that experience, that sadness, that loneliness, that loss of, oh, I thought these people were my friends, and then they left, and then they came back.

50:11I think I'd be in a fairly similar place. Really? I really do. I think when it comes to noticing and fighting for the way that we elevate women just to drag them down, I think that's what that taught me. Uh-huh. Because you experienced it. And I think I might be less inclined to reach out to someone in a moment of disgrace. That would be something that would be different. I think I would be the way everyone else is, which is all, I don't want to catch it. I don't want to be nice to them or like anything or keep following them in case anyone drags me into this. I don't want to be in the tribe. But what you do is you leave someone so isolated that then they feel hopeless and, you know.

50:50Bad things happen. Yeah, people have died. I know people have died. I almost died. Yeah. I almost truly died. I can't believe I'm still here. Wow. And had I not lived with my best friends and my boyfriend and not had the kindness of the people, you know, around me and medication that I'm no longer on, but I need it in that moment, I'd be dead for sure. It isn't. I understand that people look at public figures as like, well, you've got this money and this power. And definitely true. Yes. It's not the same as when it happens to someone who works in a shop or a store in a school, which does happen.

51:24It doesn't just happen to the... That's the other thing. We think this stuff just happens to famous people. what happens is it bleeds into our culture and it permeates our culture happens to people who we never hear about it happens to people in schools in you know uh in their workplace and they get ostracized and they lose their job and they have no other means they've got no way to they can't even afford a therapist to all of it the kids are watching and they're learning but i think other than that i think i would be at the same place when it comes to division because the the pandemic shifted something in our society globally and the loss of women's rights and the hatred that we're seeing now.

52:07We're not seeing people disagree with each other's opinions. We're seeing real visceral hatred. Evil hatred, yeah. Yeah, and we're seeing mockery of each other that I don't think is very helpful, that I totally participated in before, you know, just a few years ago. If some man was incredibly degrading to me on Twitter, I would call him an incel. I look back and what an incel and then so yeah, you know when someone's involuntary celibate without really thinking about like yes He shouldn't have degraded me and yes He should never have spoken to me in that sexist and disgusting way but my calling him an incel just lowers me to his level and is actually perpetuating a really cruel unkind Message about men who feel lonely So then I suck right and so I stopped doing that a few years ago like I'm that's good but I you know it's not like I'm not like right it's just it's good you're aware of it and you're acknowledging it and you're like slap down smack down own the libs own the Republicans you know even liberals these videos they make when they go out into these country these parts of the country where they've where a lot of these people they're not from the same metropolitan cities we are they're not exposed to the same news or algorithms that we are, they are largely ignored by both coasts until suddenly someone's got a microphone and they want to go and interview some 70-year-old Republican man who's a farmer and ask him his opinions on these very new topics of discussion.

53:39And he might give an ill-informed or outdated answer. And then the way we laugh and it goes viral and everyone loves it and we just sh** on them. what message does that send what does that say to everyone watching that it says we think you're idiots you're less than you're less than they think we're idiots we are all everyone right now being idiots because we're we're fighting the wrong target when none of us are smarter or better than each other we're all just informed differently and the faster we can all work to explain that to people, the faster we will bring people together into a much healthier and happier society.

54:23And that's where I want my work to. Everything I'm doing is now towards mental health. I was just going to mention that because with your show, your podcast, I Weigh, which is a great show that I've been on. And I think I've seen the evolution of it, which is inspiring to see that it's focused more on mental health now. And I think something you said, which is self-accountability, um self-control mental health and enter your own healing are the things that i think when we work on those things everything gets better because then you can interpret things better you can pause you can give people grace you can give yourself grace you can as opposed to just i'm angry i'm lashing out because i'm hurt and i'm afraid yes everyone feels afraid all the time It's really bad for your nervous system.

55:11It's neurologically terrible. You know, we've had doctors on my podcast come on and explain that mistakes are the most effective way for somebody to learn. That's how neurologically your brain is more likely to implement and keep information. We've made people afraid of mistakes. We've made people afraid of everything. And people feel so afraid of and isolated and judged by each other. It's not good. And so what I weigh has been more focusing on is me reaching across to people who are less and less like me. I'm wanting to engage in civil discourse. It's inspiring. I'm wanting to expose new ideas that are away from groupthink and just challenge them sometimes, but respectfully.

55:49Yeah, of course. Or sometimes have my mind opened. What's the thing that's opened your mind the most from someone that maybe you said, I don't think I'm going to learn much from this person, but I'm curious to see what they have to say. And maybe I'd be open. and who shocked you or what idea opened you up? I think the thing that has probably taken me by surprise the most has been neurologists, in that it's not that I went in with any kind of preemptive decision of what I was going to hear, but I had no idea how much neurology, how much brain science actually informs our personality and informs our behavior and informs our anxiety and informs our depression.

56:30I had no idea about the way that we are wired and how much that could change and how what we eat and what we drink and how much we sleep I always thought yeah yeah I get it I get it exercise yeah yeah yeah hate exercise yeah don't drink alcohol yeah yeah it's like yeah yeah I get it it's completely transformed my life I've been listening to these people I've been learning about glucose and I've been learning about daily exercise and I'm mortified to admit that it's made me happier than I've ever been. I'm mortified. Because you were like, screw this stuff. I'm furious. I hate sweating. I think it's disgusting.

57:05Wow. But I've been exercising, you know, a little bit every single day. I've been bringing my audience along for the ride because obviously we were kind of a very clear anti-diet culture space. I was, you know, it's where a lot of eating disorder recoveries. Sure, sure. You know, where a lot of people who've had eating disorders come to, you know, what we've created as a safe haven for eating disorders and so exercises are really tricky. conversation for most people yeah because there's so much shame around exercise it's not a healthy version it's more of an extreme version it's all for the it's all for the external it's all for the the vanity but when you know the power of your brain and how helpful it is for that which helps you heal calm feel differently it changes everything but our focus is you know look at the exercise attire that men and women are expected to wear especially women with the bra and like the the light-colored leggings and that's fine everyone should just do themselves sure not everyone now everyone feels comfortable because i don't want to bend over and see what i look like bending over in a mirror i had an eating disorder for 20 years i have body dysmorphia that's going to make me not want to go again the next day because i'm going to go into a place of judgment and you know we also again we want instant results instant results it takes a long time it takes a Not that long, not as long as you think, but it takes like six months.

58:21It's not three week hours, six pack. It's like six months minimum. I remember when I was 24, I walked into my friend who's a personal trainer, who then went on to train me for Marvel, Al Jackson. I walked into his gym when I was 24. I was like, how long would it take me to get an a** like Nicole Scherzinger? And he looked at my a** and he was like, about three months. And I was like, no, never mind. I walked out. even three months is amazing it's not that long amazing yeah it was probably gonna be he's gonna sneak me into a six but still i heard that and i was like well if there's not two weeks i don't have time for that oh my god classic classic of our generation like i'm just not gonna work at all yeah but when you think about the neurological benefits of exercise and the fact that within 10 to 15 minutes you have endorphins you have happy chemicals going through your brain that are de-stressing you making it more likely for you to be able to sleep that night de-stressing you immediately feel better than you felt beforehand.

59:19And then if you keep that up every day, within a week or two, your life starts to genuinely feel differently. And so I've been trying to bring my audience along with me on this journey doing that. It's called Move For Your Mind. How dare you exercise? How dare you enjoy it? But I found a way that is like in baggy clothes, eating sugary snacks, so we can divorce the idea of calories out, calories in. We're going against all of exercise culture and all of diet culture, because exercise culture and diet culture are just married now. and so we are we've kind of created this slightly anarchist rebellious like exercise don't work out but make sure you're moving yeah yes but you can look ridiculous i look ridiculous i have no that's great like swag you know i don't know if that's the right don't work out for instagram yeah don't work out for instagram work out for yourself to see that but like dance in your kitchen do things that are free lift water bottles lift your dog lift your child you know uh go for a walk every day do simple things buy a buy a 300 walking machine which might be expensive for some people some people it might be affordable so if you're a woman and you're afraid of walking at night i walk on that and i watch my favorite tv shows and then i get my half an hour a day and then i feel amazing and i have a great night's sleep i sound smug and disgusting i hate myself i promised myself i would never be this person or a healthy person an exercising person but we're trying to find unpretentious fun and welcoming ways for people at any size with any disability or any stage of pregnancy to join us and not feel ostracized.

1:00:42That's cool. Because we still, I mean, whenever there's a plus-size line for exercise workout, the world goes mad. It's like, what did you want them to wear when they were exercising? You want these people to exercise and work out and be healthy. What do you want them to be, naked in the gym? The gyms are not a very friendly space. So it's just about finding an alternative way to democratize exercise and bring it back to the people. It was ours. It got industrialized like a matter of decades ago and turned into this exclusive club where you have a uniform. Why are you in a uniform? Yeah, unless you're playing a professional sport.

1:01:18Honestly. Well, you have this uniform that's getting sexier and sexier and sexier every year for all the genders. And it's becoming more and more about just becoming a billboard for other people. No one's thinking about the inside. It's all very punitive. It's a punitive. Yeah. No pain, no gain is the stupidest slogan of our generation. One off. Right. Well, it's also with men. It's like you just see men just shirtless everywhere who are just shredded and probably on steroids or human growth hormone. And so they're just like so ripped that you're just like, most men are like, I could never get to that point.

1:01:52Yeah, but f*** that. Get to happy. Right, exactly. That person might be struggling with an eating disorder or some sort of body dysmorphia or ulcerative. Right. You know, we don't know what everyone's story is. Just focus on being happier in an hour than you are right now. Feeling autonomous. So many of us don't feel autonomous in the world because there's so much chaos and we're doom scrolling and we're looking at how the world is falling apart and our kids are changing faster than we were at their age. And everyone feels so like, oh my God, it feels like I'm in quicksand all of the time. It's like it's a quick way to immediately feel like, okay, my feet are back on the ground.

1:02:27And it's just temporary, but then you do it again. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so that's a big part of what we're doing over at Iway is exercise culture, but also neurology and learning that you can really make fundamental quick changes that it doesn't just have to be medication. I'm pro-medication. And it doesn't just having to be access to the best therapy, which no one can afford en masse. there are so many ways you can rewire your own brain and i think these people people like caroline leaf who is great are fantastic and important and they're about no longer succumbing just a big farmer but giving the power back to the people to have autonomy in their own recovery absolutely it's empowering that's inspiring so what i'm hearing you say is that when you started to talk to neurologists or brain scientists you started to learn these ideas just make you happier you're a healthier overall.

1:03:20And so you started, you know, mortifying yourself by doing these things. Yeah. And you started to see results. Sometimes on Instagram live, yeah. And you started to see results. Yeah. I'm happier than I've ever been. I'm way nicer than I used to be. You see it. Yeah, exactly. I could feel the energy right away when you walked in here. I go, something gets shifted within you. Yeah. Now that you're bad before, I said it was just like... No, but I was defensive. You were adding more of an aggressive energy, right? Yeah, I was defensive. And I think there's nothing wrong with a little bit of female aggression.

1:03:46but I do think that what I had was more of a defensive energy. That's what it was. Again, I was flying so high and everyone was congratulating me so much that I was like, I was just waiting for the shoe drop. And also everyone, every podcast I went on, someone was trying to trap me or, you know, so I didn't know what you were going to be like. Like I didn't know what anyone was going to be like. Hopefully you didn't think I were trying to trap you. No, it was great. I had to run my podcast. We had a great time. It's just, I just didn't know anything to trust. I knew that the other shoe was going to drop at any moment.

1:04:14And I just didn't know when it was going to happen. and I had this anxiety. And I think also because everything was happening so fast and because I had that anxiety, I think that also accounts for some of my worse, like my poorer decisions with things that I said publicly, subjects I weighed into. Why am I talking about global conflict? What do I know about global conflict? But I felt pressured to because people are like, your silence on this is deafening. And so you're like, I don't want to think I don't care. I want to know I care about their country, but I don't know anything about their country.

1:04:41That's one of the biggest things when people say, I can't believe we're not supporting this or this or this or this and you're not saying something means you don't support it yeah i'm like maybe i just don't know what to say yeah and you're because i know this the one thing about eating disorders i'm expected to know everything about everything and my bad for trying to jump in when i didn't know because i only ever created more mess and for some reason the media like i can and it can make a headline so like it like and i don't know why like but they they they know that I'm divisive. They know I'm controversial.

1:05:13They know that I'm outspoken. And then they further polarize me by making the headline as egregious and violent as possible. So as Jamila, Jamil slams. And often I've just said a really thoughtful thing with like a love heart. Not always, but sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did it feel like to you when, you know, you had people that were maybe seemed like friends or acquaintances, but when you were going through your stuff in the media and people, you know, went against you or just stopped talking to you for a period of time, How did it make you feel? And how is your relationship with certain people like that once they started to come back around?

1:05:50They'll never be back on the inside ever. And I think it can be helpful in moments like that, as heartbreaking as they are, because it was heartbreaking. Yeah, I know the feeling. And you felt very like, you feel very betrayed. And you also like judge your own sense of judgment. You question yourself, which is never a nice, it's a shaky feeling when you can't trust your gut instinct. but truly it's also an extraordinary magnifying glass of clarity that I'm so grateful for because I have this extraordinary pool of people now left who I know have got my back who don't care who don't look at the internet who challenge me when I'm wrong with grace and love and they maintain the most fundamental quality that I think we all need which is to have the benefit of the doubt.

1:06:36100%. It's the benefit of the doubt is going to carry us to a better society. Yes, it is. We have lost the benefit of the doubt, especially for women. We have reserved quite a lot of it for men. But even then, we assume people's worst intentions. And that's not the world that I grew up in. Yeah. And if we're modeling this to our kids, what do we expect them to do? Have great values and be open to conversation? Yeah. But what's a great value? The values that are correct to keep changing so what's a great what's a great value what does inclusion look like what does diversity of friendship groups look like debate is the is the foundation of democracy we've stopped that disagreement rather is the foundation we've stopped debating yeah we just said no i'm not gonna listen to you i was gonna yell at you and now this thing yeah yeah i just like i said i've done it before got me nowhere didn't make me feel good made me feel really lonely and sad and alienated me from people.

1:07:34I don't want to be alienated from people. I want to be friends. I want us to be together. Yeah. I don't want to have children, but this work is my way of, of making the world easier for my friends who are having children. If I can make it a safer world for their kids, then that makes up for the fact that I refuse to be called mother. Really? I'll tell you what, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm inspired by, um, just the journey you're on. You know, I'm inspired, I'm inspired that you got to experience so much in the last six, seven years. You got to experience a rise of fame quickly and you did some things that you were proud of, but also things you weren't proud of and you learned from them.

1:08:18Um, you know, I'm glad you got to experience people for you and then against you because you learn from them. and I feel like you're a better person because of that and you have more perspective now. And at the end of the day, you've got a lot of grace for yourself and grace for others. And it sounds to me like you want people to come together. You want people to be open-minded. You also want people to be accountable for their actions and you want people to focus on their mental health and their optimizing of their own mental health, optimizing their own physical body and their spiritual health so they can have more peace and grace for themselves and others.

1:08:54That's what I'm hearing you say. Yeah, we talk about mental health so much now in society and it's a big part of the zeitgeist. But I still think we're talking about it from not quite the right angle. We're still talking about it as though like this would be a good thing to have on an individual basis. Wouldn't it be nice if you had, if you could make your mortgage payments and look after all your kids and take them to all the practices and do all of this for everyone. But then also not want to kill yourself. It's definitely still seen as a surplus, whereas actually it should be the foundation of everything that we are going to.

1:09:20I can't believe mental health is not free in this country. I cannot believe it's not free in every single country. It is in many countries. But this is how we increase our GDP. People can work healthier. People can be healthier. They will be in the hospital less if they are happier because stress and loneliness and all these different things are huge factors as to what destroys people's health and immune systems. It would change the amount of people having to go in psychiatric care. It would change the amount of homelessness there is. it would change the way that we treat each other as a society like it would change everything that's where the money should go all the money should go there if we could all as a world put the money instead of in the military only into mental health if we could take some of those trillions and put it towards making the people and the children happier and having children have access to mental health we wouldn't need so much military there wouldn't be so much war We wouldn't need the police as often as we do.

1:10:17We wouldn't need as many drugs or as many different things that we have now to try and numb the pain and help people escape from the pain. I agree. We wouldn't be sewn to our phones. And a lot of people who make a lot of money from us doing that know that. They don't make the move to improve our mental health. And so we have to do it ourselves. And people like us have to tell people. I'm loving this message. I'm inspired by this message. I think it's the most important thing in the world and it's still treated as like a luxury rather than a fundamental. And it should be the same as brushing your teeth or, you know, getting out in the sun or whatever.

1:10:54Sure, sure. As opposed to eating good food. So I'm like... We didn't know what we were going to talk about today. I keep them inspired by this because, you know, I just love seeing the journey. I didn't know this is where you're at fully. So for you coming in, I was just like, wow, this is really inspiring. I have a couple final questions for you that I think I know I asked you the first time on the show and so I'm really fascinated to hear what the response is to them and if it's the same or if it's changed since the last time I don't remember what I said so you'll get one of those times we'll link that back up so people can see the last one also but I'll ask that in a second but I want people to check out your shows you got I Weigh you got Bad Dates which is hilarious you're on social media Jamila Jamil on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, everywhere, iwaycommunity.com.

1:11:45How else can we follow or support you with what you're up to right now? I think just join me at iway or join me on my social media. Join the mental health movement. I think that we really have an opportunity to change the future of marketing and mental health and include more people. Listen to iway. It's a great podcast on neurology and mental health that offers you the autonomy to take it into your own hands. Listen to bad dates if you want to feel better about your own romantic life it is the most disgusting and filthy and funny uh podcast with extraordinary comedians who give way too much information about their personal lives and sex lives uh and again it's the much needed escapism i'm able to provide information and the sad stuff and then the escapism so i hope people listen to it because it is just an amazing vacation for your mind that's great it's purely and we need comedy yeah that comedy is one of the best medicines you know 100 % saved my life.

1:12:35Yeah, that's great. Okay, so both those shows, Bad Dates, I Weigh, I'm inspired. I want to hear these final few questions. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you, Jamila, for, again, the journey, transformation. It's really more, not a transformation, more the awareness that you have about yourself and who you've been, where you're at now or where you're going. And I really just love that you have that awareness for you, that you've been on a healing journey, that you're able to see things from a different perspective. And for me, that's really inspiring. I think it's inspiring when I can do that and anyone can do that.

1:13:08So I'm inspired by the journey you're on. And it's really cool to see you right now in this space because most importantly, you're happy and you're healthy. Yeah. And that's for me really inspired to see you in a space like that. It also, speaking of cancel culture, goes to show that like when people criticize you, some good can come from it. Even if I didn't always make a public notes, apology statement about everything, I was listening. Yeah. I was listening when people pulled me out. and so I make those tweaks sometimes privately because sometimes it's easier to make change privately and we need to become aware that it's okay to have a learning journey privately.

1:13:42You do not have to share every single thing. I'm not going to have a pap smear on my live IG. I need to look after my brain privately with space and mess. You don't need an opinion from every person on everything you do. No, and everyone doesn't have to be privy to every single thing about all of our lives. It's a very big misconception about how we're supposed to conduct ourselves because of how much some people choose to share on social media. But I'm listening. And I'm changing. But also, the people who spoke to me constructively were the ones who got in. And the people who almost pushed me over the edge and killed me or made me so angry that I didn't want to fight for anyone and give up were the people who abused me.

1:14:20I didn't need to be sent death threats or rape threats or threats that I'm going to be ostracized or that people are going to boycott me or call for me to be fired. I didn't need that to change. The people who spoke to me kindly and with peace and with the best of intention who believed in need to change are the ones who changed me. So criticism can be fantastic. I am a product of that criticism. But from love. Criest criticism. Those are the people that help me. the other people did nothing but caused me stress and almost made me give up on everything including my own life you keep inspiring with this message so i'm grateful you're sharing it and if you guys are inspired make sure to leave a comment below of the part of this conversation now for how many times lewis has said i don't know i don't know why this is really inspiring you can ask you can ask for me you can ask you know my team i'm i haven't said that to anyone in this way everyone inspiring inspiring in certain ways but not like this okay but you can ask them out yeah but i mean now everyone's inspiring but the way and how you view things differently is inspiring when you were completely it's the fact that you've got the before and more extreme in another way yeah we love a before and after in our generation and so like this is my before and i just wasn't expected yet so i think that's what's inspiring because you're in a peaceful place which i really which I'm really excited about for you personally.

1:15:47And so I'm acknowledging for that. And I want you to hear that acknowledgement. Just tell me one more time that you find me inspired. Yeah, exactly. I do find you inspired. But I acknowledge you for the journey. I think it's really cool. And I think the thing that is inspiring about it is for people that were in that state of mind that you were in now, that are still angry and upset and screaming and fighting. and maybe it's justified in their anger, but it's not going to get across to make the change they want in the best way possible. But also we don't value humility. We value self-flagellation, eternal self-flagellation, but we don't actually value true humility.

1:16:26And when someone shows it, we normally, on them, we normally make fun of them being like, see, I knew you'd done that thing wrong. I'm going to use this opportunity to make you feel even worse. It's like, that's not the way. that's not how we treat children i hope and we're all just children we're just children who are bigger we've got uh jobs and bills and stress but we're all just massive kids whenever i'm at one of my boyfriend's concerts i don't watch him i watch the audience because he's an he's an amazing musician he's doing this thing that is incredible he's not just uh you know pressing a button and all the music plays he's actually playing like three instruments at the same time and singing and people are watching him and they're enjoying what he's doing the songs mean something to him and they're all looking at him and they're not thinking about themselves or their lives or anything else they're just focusing on one thing and this is with any show I'm just giving an example of what I've seen and they look like babies they look like innocent babies and you can see their humanity like I urge anyone at any concert or any cinema to look around for a second and see people's inner child when all the defenses aren't up and all the arbitrary obligations that we get when we're 18 and suddenly come along.

1:17:40Look for the inner child in everyone. I do that with everyone, even the people I argue with. I look for that, and I don't mean that in a condescending way. Sure. But we all just want the same shit we wanted when we were babies. We were lonely, we are hungry, we are tired, we're disgruntled, we're not getting what we need. and before we used to cry and we used to talk about it but now we're not allowed to but we still feel all those feelings yeah so how do we look after the child and all of us i think preach it i like this um i swear i haven't taken like ayahuasca not that there's anything wrong with that i know i'm speaking like someone who's taken i haven't taken it i haven't taken any uh psilocybin there you go wow that's the first person in hollywood who said that I'm afraid.

1:18:26I was like, I'm already crazy. I don't need to. That might mess you up in more. Yeah. I want to tip that one over the edge. This, uh, the, okay. These last two questions, this is called the three truths. I asked you this before. You may not remember it and that's okay, but it's called the three truths. So it's a hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want. Um, but it's your last day on earth far in the future. You get to experience, accomplish, not accomplish, all the things you want to do. Um, and you live a beautiful life, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason on this last day, you have to take everything that you've ever said with you, all the content, all the TV shows, all this interview, the tweets, whatever you create in the future, it's all gone for whatever reason.

1:19:11And all you get to leave behind to the world are these three final truths, three lessons that you've learned or that you think you will learn for the rest of your time that you would leave behind that you think are important for people what would be those three truths for you cuddles are the most important thing on earth i really mean that they are truly the most important thing on earth physical affection some sort form of physical touch is the most important thing in the world try and access it wherever you can even if you have to pay for it whatever you need to do they have cuddle cafes in Japan really recommend highly recommend yeah but cuddles are the most important thing in the world never trust a fart it was deep and meaningful I hope you can see that I'm a deep philosophical guy but it's true and I've learned that one the hard way never never trust okay and that shame never achieves anything productive love it final question what's your definition of greatness now for me personally greatness would just

1:20:30it's something to do with making people laugh being able to give people the gift of laughter whether it's at my expense or in something that i'm making uh even the people who love to hate me I'm like you're welcome like it brings me like there are some people who really enjoy making fun of me or hating me and they're having a good time and they're bonding over it yeah and I love that for them but giving people the gift of laughter to me is the most connected I can feel to a human being uh almost more than sex like it is just the most like our souls that intertwined in that moment were on the exact same wavelength and laughter has been the the main thing that saved my life more than any medicine or operation or anything laughter has been the key to my survival and so if i'm lucky enough to get to keep doing that forever or even for another few years i'd be thrilled i've i've had my fair share i'm ready to go i don't have to get to do this any longer but that to me is greatness as being you know remembered the way that i remember or not even remember but as I leave this world I want God I hope he knew this when he left but I hope Robin Williams remembered at the very end how much joy he brought how much he made us laugh because I have pictures of him in my house you know and as like a kind of almost like a shrine to that man because of how many of my darkest moments were alleviated because of him and and i i i pray that he thought about that even for a fleeting second towards the end of his life because it's so did you ever get to meet him i never got to meet him yeah no i had one moment i had one moment with him wow um well i mean i didn't speak to him but i was on a plane that he was on and he was in the front seat i was walking on the plane and right before I even got on the plane, I felt an energy of like crossing onto, like I'm entering the plane and I could like hear something.

1:22:41I was like, that sounds interesting. Sounds familiar. And I saw him talking to the person sitting next to him in first class right there. He's going from New York to LA. And he was on, he was like telling some joke and like people were just like in it. Right. And luckily people were stopped putting their bags up. And so I was just kind of standing there for like 60 seconds watching like this close from him and just seeing him do his magic. And I was like, wow, that's a pretty funny guy. And, uh, unfortunately, you know, that was the one time I met him, but it was, I didn't meet him, but I saw him and I got to experience it.

1:23:14But I was just like, man, this guy brought so much joy and laughter to so many people around the world. And, uh, so I love that definition of greatness for you. And, uh, I'm so grateful you were, you came back on and you shared and, uh, thank you again for making me laugh as well as inspiring me because I had to throw that in one more time. Thanks for being here. I appreciate you. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast.

1:23:56If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcasts and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com slash newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

1:24:31And now it's time to go out there and do something great.