Kerry Washington Opens Up: Mental Health Struggles, Her Spiritual Connection & The Secret That Changed EVERYTHING

28:55And I feel that way a little bit about my marriage too. Like if we were both sitting here, we could kind of agree and co-sign on it. But I would say the first thing I thought about when you asked me that question is the importance of therapy because let's go, right? Like individual therapy, couples therapy, like being willing to have spaces where you do the work. And I remember my dad one day being like, you guys are in couples therapy. Like what's wrong? And we were like, nothing like nothing's wrong it's it is a place where we go to take care of our marriage in the way that i go to the gym to take care of my body or i go to the dentist to take care of my teeth like i feel like as a couple we deserve and therefore we cultivate a place where we care for our relationship and it doesn't come out of crisis it doesn't come out of things that are bad I mean, in fact, like we spend a lot of time in therapy consciously talking about what we're doing well and acknowledging that for each other.

29:56That's so cool. Because it's really important to not take for granted that there are good things to celebrate and acknowledge about each other. Right. And so that's I mean, I feel like therapy is a big part of that spiritual commitment. it. So one of the things I remember my, one of, one of my many therapists saying early on to me was a healthy relationship is not just about like give and take, like I do for you, you do for me, that actually it's important to think about the relationship almost as a third entity that you're both pouring into. It's like a bank account. It's like a spiritual or emotional love account where like, I'm not just doing for him and then he owes me.

30:37It's like, we're both pouring into this thing that matters to us, which is the marriage. That is beautiful. Right? I'm so glad you said this because I haven't heard a lot of people in your position talk about therapy and marriage. Oh my God. And one of the things that Martha, my wife and I committed to her earlier. Congrats on your marriage. Yeah, it's been a couple months. Do you like saying wife? It's so weird. I have to say it because first it was girlfriend, then it was fiance. It's like, okay, I'm getting used to wife. I love, I mean, I just love the word husband. I like add multiple syllables.

31:12Husband. Husband. I love it. Yeah. I'm still stepping into it, but it's been a great experience. But one of the things when we were dating non-exclusively, before we became committed exclusively, we were having an amazing time. But there was still some like little fear or anxiety or worry about getting fully committed because in every previous relationship I was in, it all ended badly in therapy. Oh, because you went to therapy when things got bad. Yes. And I always wanted to get into therapy sooner, but the partners I chose resisted therapy. And I was always thinking, what woman would not want a man to go to therapy with them?

31:53Yeah. Right? So I was always like, what world am I living in right now? But I kept repeating this cycle. But then you learned to choose a partner who was willing to walk that walk with you. And I said, I want to start, if we're going to get committed, because we're having an amazing time, I want to start in therapy. Amazing. And so we started right away within the first few months. It's so smart. Not because something was wrong. So smart. Because then when you have something that you need to unpack, you're not like, uh-oh, we got to step in the ring and battle it out in therapy. It's like, no, you know what?

32:24Let's talk about that this week. Exactly. and it's it's been the greatest gift that we've given each other because in the first year we just went and we got alignment yeah we got spiritual alignment and a shared language shared language we got to talk about past fears and future concerns up front yeah to address all the things that we were afraid of yeah and come together and be like oh we're teammates we're building a team. That's right. We're investing in courageous conversations. Yeah. We're allowing for imperfections in both of us. No one needs to be perfect. Yeah. And we're stepping into a process of unity and alignment around shared values and a shared vision together.

33:08It's so funny because I hadn't really thought about this. I mean, I know it's, sometimes when you're doing press for a movie, you're like, Oh my God, this is why we're doing this. Like, should we have known this earlier? But I think, I think a big part of what pulled me towards shadow force was that you get to watch this couple that sort of start out as adversaries because they are like, their marriage is fractured and they actually become a team. Right. And like, literally one of the hardest, most exciting, most fun fight scenes in the film is early on Omar and I fighting each other. It's like a crazy, it's like your worst couples therapy.

33:56Yes. Like drop kicks. Yeah. Cause we're both like highly trained mercenaries, right? So he's this big guy is really strong. He's done lots of stunts in big action movies. And we trained for a long time together to be able to do this dance. And we talked about like how his character fights differently from my character, our different fight styles and what that says about our relationship and how this couple is kind of competitive and they challenge each other. And there is like a real friction between them. You know, he's angry that she's disappeared. She's angry that she hasn't had access to the child.

34:29And there's, there's heat between them, right? Who's the dirty fighter? Who's the low blow? Is that you? I mean, I have to be more strategic. He's a big guy. Yeah. You know, I mean, I got to use what I have. And as the film progresses, you get to watch them become a team. And so then it was fun for us to learn how to train together. Like, well, what are your strengths? Like, I'm a better shooter than him, but he's a stronger fighter. Right. And so like, how do we lean into that in the film so that we're an unstoppable team? And I think that is so much what marriage is, right? Like, it's like figuring out, okay, this is your fighting style.

35:08This is my fighting style. Here are the things I'm upset about. What are your resentments? I don't recommend like hand-to-hand combat for most couples. It's not okay. Not okay. Exactly. But, but to figure out how to lean into the strengths and how to speak the same language and how to have a shared, you know, whether you call it spiritual alignment, shared goals, shared priorities, like they come together for their son where they're like, this child means everything to us. What do we have to do to protect him? Wow. Would you say therapy has helped you not only in your, I guess, marriage and your family dynamic relationships, but also in your career and stepping into owning your power and your worth, even though you're excelling and succeeding so much, do you still have any doubts or insecurities?

35:59Yes. Really? Absolutely. To Kerry Washington. Yeah, so what? What type of, for someone watching and listening who maybe is really struggling and they don't have much going on in their life or they just feel like things are just keep knocking them down. Their career isn't working the way they want to. They don't feel like they're living in love. They don't feel like they're living their dreams or in the pursuit of their dreams. They feel like relationships are kind of off and they really lack self-worth. what advice would you give them for anyone watching or listening who might be in that space on how to start the process of truly loving and accepting yourself even when you feel really low for me part of why therapy is so important is because it has taught me to pause it has taught me to take a pause and to not believe every single thought that I'm having to not, um, to not get caught up in the negative self-talk to create a little bit of distance between the stimulus and the response.

37:09Um, there's a saying that I love that pause stands for postpone action until serenity emerges. Amazing. Right? Like just take a beat. And for me, in the way that life moves so quickly, sometimes therapy is that beat where I get to go like, hold on. The story I'm telling myself is that my job is terrible. The story I'm telling myself is that the world is on fire. The story I'm telling myself is that I'll never be in the body I want to be in. The story I'm telling myself is that I'll never find the person I want to find. But like maybe I can just pause that for a moment and unpack it and figure out how to walk toward healing.

37:48Yes. So for me, therapy is a place to like pause, to pause and be reflective, take responsibility for the thoughts, be honest with myself and then try to cultivate some tools. Cause some of it could be that I'm not sleeping enough, right? Like sometimes what I realize in therapy is like, I don't think I'm getting enough sleep or I don't think I'm eating right. Or my hormones are off. I need to support myself better. Or this relationship isn't working out. Or I don't know if I'm happy on this job. Or the job is good, but I think maybe I need a hobby. Like it just gives me, and so maybe for some people it's therapy.

38:22For some people it could be like meditative walking or journaling. But it's like, what are the practices that allow me to pause and get in the present moment and be more honest with myself? Yeah. When you're stepping into a role like you are in the new movie, is there any moment you're feeling insecure at this every single time really every single time because here's the crazy thing of your career yes yes but you've been crushing it though right like it's that fear that that also I have to remember that the physiological experience of fear is the same physiological experience of excitement so that fear is like holy I've never done because every time I play a new character, I'm doing something I've never done before.

39:07Like I do have a toolbox of like, I know how to memorize the lines and I know I, I, I, but I'm becoming a new human being every time I start a new project, a new person with new desires and new fears. And she walks a different way and she wears her hair a different way. And she has different ways of speaking and breathing and eating. And so I'm starting from scratch every time I start a new role. So I'm always terrified. And I'm always like, oh God, will I be able to figure this one out? Will I be able to unlock her? Will I be able to be her in the way that the project needs me to be her? So it's super exciting.

39:46I mean, you've played all these personalities and characters and roles. How do you not get lost in characters and roles and stay true to who your real character is in life? And I've heard you also talk about how the best character you've ever played is mother and wife. So how do you not allow all the films and TV characters you played to seep into your true essence, your true personality, your true role that you are. So I think early in my life, you know, when I was in my 20s or even like as a teenager, I actually, I was really hungry for a strong sense of self and I didn't have one. So the characters allowed me to explore different personalities and kind of take on different people's journeys.

40:39And that was really helpful to me to, to kind of experience life through somebody else's eyes and get a sense of what resonates and what doesn't, because I really didn't feel like I had a strong center. Yeah. Until when, how old were you when you felt like, oh, I'm, I'm good with me. I think when I started, when I started treatment for my eating disorder and started therapy, I started to have a deeper understanding of self. And, um, again, I think it's grown and evolved through the years because also we're always changing, right? Of course. So our sense of self is always changing. But I think now I've really learned to see these characters as kind of extensions of myself.

41:22When I play a new character, I kind of have two jobs. There's an outside in approach and there's an inside out approach. And the inside out approach is I ask myself, like, what do I, Carrie, know about this character? What about her experience can I relate to deeply? Personally, from your experience. And then do I have the courage to reveal that part of myself publicly and let the other stuff kind of fall away and let that part of me be my full essence in this character? Can you give me an example with the new movie, Shadow Force, how you thought about that? So like, you know, people say before you have kids, people will say to you like, oh, I would kill for my child.

42:04And you're like, oh, that's such a cute expression. Right. Before you have kids. And then you have children and you're like, oh, I get it. Like, I, I can't imagine something I wouldn't do to protect my children. Like, I love them so fiercely. So then I read this script where this woman is literally taking people out to protect her child. I'm like, okay, well, I've never killed anybody in real life. I'm not a trained assassin, but I understand that love. I understand that fierce motherhood, that mother instinct, that like I would do anything for you. And I understand making tough choices for your family that don't always feel good, but are the right thing to do.

42:47So I say, okay, I'm not a mercenary. I'm not a killer. I'm not a bi, but I do know a mother's love. So the inside out is like, I need, do I have the courage to reveal that kind of deep vulnerability that when you have a child, you become powerless. It's, it's like that thing I've heard Obama say of like, your heart is suddenly on the outside of you walking around in the world. Like, can I let people into that and be that? And then the outside in is like, okay, but now I have to learn like fight training and weapons training and how she walks and how does she dress? And, you know, how does she live in the world as somebody who's trained to kill people?

43:26And what kind of person becomes somebody who kills people for a living? And so there are like all these, and I know a little something about that too, like the desperation part of me of feeling like you don't have options. Okay. So can I let people into that? So it's all, it's like a, like parts of me that do relate bringing those forward. And then parts of me that don't relate learning how to add those on. Interesting. Yeah. Cause I feel like all of us have some type of darkness in us. Yeah. And so do you feel like you have to tap into that sometimes? Sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it's really hard to shake at the end.

43:58Right? At night, you're like, you're feeling the adrenaline because you become that energy. Yes, you do. And I think before I got married and had kids, I was much more of like a method actor, meaning like I stayed in the characters all the time. For months. Yes. And it was miserable, quite honestly. It's like really hard and really wrecked havoc on my nervous system. When I got married and had kids, I was like, I need to figure out how to put this down. Like, I don't want to bring this home. I want to be able to have a healthy life outside of work. What's the tools or process for letting go of the character?

44:34Yes. Some of it is ritual. Some at the end, like sometimes I try to, I really try to look at like the hair and makeup process and the costume process as very ritualistic. And so when I'm taking the clothes off at the end of the day, I'm taking the character off at the end of the day. Like I, I just did a movie, um, where I was playing, it's a movie directed by Ben Affleck and he, he and I are husband and wife. And so, you know, every day at work, I have to take off my wedding ring and I pin it to myself. I never not have it with me. So I always pin it to myself somewhere. When you're shooting, when you're filming.

45:09And then I have to take this other wedding ring, right. That belongs to the movie. And I have to put on this other wedding ring. And now I'm in this marriage. So at the end of the day, it's really important to me to take off that wedding ring, take off that marriage. That's not my life and put my own ring back on and step into my life. It's like a psychological process of becoming a different person. But I think it works in life too, right? Like when we give ourselves those rituals, like there's something, if you, when you have a meditation practice, like again, I can pray, I pray and meditate anywhere, but there is something different about when I sit on that pillow in that corner of my bedroom and light that candle, there's a different kind of drop in, right?

45:51Like we have these cues that really allow us to signal to our body different realities and different ways of being present. I feel like you've really had to train your nervous system to always come back home to safety. Yeah. Because you're playing these characters. And obviously, it's make-believe or character or it's movie making. But the body doesn't know the difference. And your adrenaline is heightened. It's in fear or it's in aggression or it's in shooting or whatever it's in. Or it's in make-believe love or whatever it is. And so, your nervous system in your body, you have to psychologically remove it somehow and get back to the spiritual alignment of your character in life.

46:33Yeah. Of who you are. A lot of it is like being an athlete. You know, you have to really take care. You have to make sure because it wrecks havoc on your nervous system, the sleeping and the eating and the exercising, those practices are really, really important to maintain sanity. I remember after the second season of Scandal, I was like so depleted, so exhausted. And I went to my doctor and we did some blood work and he was like, your adrenals are shot. What is going on? I was like, what's going on? I played this woman who like every single episode, somebody walks into my office on the worst day of their life and I have to fix it.

47:09So my adrenals are shot, you know, or when we were doing a scene, some, you know, some crazy scene on Scandal where somebody was lying on the floor of the office covered in blood and we're all like screaming and holding them. And I was pregnant at the time. Oh, my gosh. And so after every take, the other girls in the cast and myself, we would all put our hands on my belly and we would say, it's just pretend. It's just pretend. Wow. Because you just have to remember. And that little baby doesn't know the difference. That little baby is like, her heart is beating fast. Her adrenals are her cortisol, right?

47:42So I had to keep going back and saying, we're okay. Just pretend. So I try to, that taught me that if I can do that for my baby, I have to do that for myself too, right? Like I have to, on the way home, go like, you're okay. That was pretend. Nobody's dying. Nobody's kidnapped. Nobody's, we're okay. Man, do you feel like you've had a new relationship with little Carrie? Yeah. With the girl inside of you that was growing up kind of going through this, everything looks good on the outside or, you know, I'm taken care of, but emotionally, I don't feel taken care of. Yeah. Like physically, you were taken care of.

48:20That's right. It's a beautiful way to put it. But emotionally or maybe psychologically, there was a fracture. Yeah. And so you didn't feel safe fully. Yeah. How have you repaired that relationship with little Carrie and allowing her to feel safe the way you were by putting your hands on your belly with your baby when she was going through the emotional uncertainty? So our mutual friend, Gabby Bernstein, who talks a lot about IFS work, that work has been transformational for me. And I just, I mean, I was familiar with IFS work and I'd done kind of inner child work with other therapists. But this year I really decided to make a pivot and do, to work with an IFS therapist.

49:04And it has been life-changing. Which for those that don't know, it's internal family systems. And so what has been the breakthrough or the self-awareness you've created in the process of internal family systems work for yourself? It's so funny because in many ways I speak internal family systems language as an actor, right? Because I am always dealing with these different parts of myself and bringing them forward. So interesting. So it's a really exciting way for me to understand the different parts of myself that still feel not enough on certain days or angry or resentful or afraid. IFS has really helped me to not identify wholly with those stories when they come up.

49:56Right. Like there's the story. Who's the part that's telling that story? how do I take care of that part and then move on right but like I don't have to give my entire existence over to that that part and that message and that story I can kind of have some distance which is very you know sort of Buddhist and but like to have some distance from the thought and to say like I see you I understand where that belief system is coming from but it doesn't have to be the truth. It's like, I remember when I was like just starting therapy and I had this therapist who would say like, how do you feel? And I was like, oh, I just feel really fat.

50:34And she was like, fat is not a feeling. I was like, it's not. Because also I had grown up in a house where people would, where my mom, I heard my mom say like, I feel fat. And I, it was like a, she was like, what's underneath the feeling fat? Is it anger? Is it sadness? It's different. I think for me, feeling fat was often like just a, it was like a crutch that I went to that would prevent me from getting to that next feeling underneath. I would make it about the body and not being enough as opposed to diving deeper into like, what is the feeling that needs to be addressed here? What was it in that moment for you?

51:18What was your soul feeling where you say I'm feeling fat, but really was it the not enoughness? Was it fear? Was it anxious? I think usually the feeling fat is feeling unlovable. So therefore not enough. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Sure. You feel unlovable at times? It happens. Yeah. I don't live there. I mean, that's the great thing is that I don't, I don't live there, but I don't want to pretend that the thought doesn't come up. Sure. Because I'm really proud to have tools, to have tools and support systems that have helped me figure out what to do with the thought when it comes up or how to embrace it.

52:03Yeah, how to navigate it. Yeah, navigate. When you feel unlovable or not enough, is it not feeling lovable or enough with people on the outside of you or not feeling lovable within you? I think it all goes back to spirit. I think it all goes back to like, am I loved by source, right? Like, am I lovable by God? Because when we don't feel lovable in ourselves in a spiritual way, then we need it externally from other people, whether that's in a relationship or from fans or from an employer or an employee or like whatever that looks like. But seeking that approval and love and acceptance and belonging externally is usually because I don't feel like I'm in alignment with the fact that I am loved, that like I am loved and okay just as I am.

52:59Because I think that's where the idea that I have to be somebody other than who I am, forgetting that who I am as I am is enough. I'm good. I am. But when we forget that, we're like, oh, I have to be something else. I have to be better. I have to be stronger. I have to be more successful. I have to be thinner, prettier, smarter, whatever it is, as opposed to like, I am good. I am blessed. I am loved. And I'm on a journey of excellence. So I'm willing to be bigger, better, smarter, more successful, but I don't have to be to earn anybody's love. That's beautiful. That's on a good day.

53:40I've got a couple of final minutes with you, Carrie. This has been really powerful. two final questions for you before I ask those final questions a new movie is out very soon once this is released May 9th Mother's Day weekend Mother's Day weekend so celebrate all your bad moms and uplift all your bad dads let's go power of parenting take your family out yes watch Shadow Force and make sure afterwards you reveal all your dirty secrets within your family and you open yourselves up so you can be emotionally free as well yes yes you can be physically and emotionally. Absolutely. I'm excited for people to go watch it.

54:17Shout out for us. Two final questions for you. This is a hypothetical question I ask everyone. I've been doing the show for 12 years. Every week for 12 years. And this is a question I ask people at the end. It's called the three truths. Imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day on earth and you get to accomplish and create all of life's magic. But for whatever reason, everything you've created has to go with you. Your movies, your TV, this interview, books, anything you create is gone. So we don't have your information or your content anymore.

54:53But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three truths that you would share from your experiences of what you've learned. What would those three lessons or truths be for you? No matter who you are, you are enough. the truth is easier, even though it feels harder at times. And that there is true, true strength in vulnerability. There is no way to get strong without being willing to be vulnerable. I love those. If you could go 10 years in the future and give yourself one piece of advice today. And Carrie, 10 years in the future is looking at you and saying... I love this because normally people ask you to give advice to your younger self, but this is really great to project forward.

55:44Yeah. If you could imagine, you know, where you'll be in 10 years, imagine where your family will be, your career will be, and all the things, the challenges, the ups and downs you're going to face in the next decade. What do you think your future self would tell you to set you up for success emotionally, spiritually, physically, financially in the next decade? I think she would tell me to cherish every moment with the people I love most. You know, like to really, when you're with people that you love and or doing things that you love, be fully present. Yes. Because you're not going to get that back.

56:30Yeah. And I think about like oh my god in 10 years my kids like when i think about how old they'll be in 10 years you're like oh i need to be in this moment and like what things will i be complaining about in my body in 10 years like be in this body enjoy right like just like really appreciate it reminds to me of um i went to this incredible film festival at san quentin prison um our we have a my company simpson street we had a documentary called daughters on netflix that's really powerful documentary about dads who are incarcerated and how they learn to be obviously this is a recurring theme for me right like dads and parenting and so it's about these amazing dads who they do a a father-daughter dance in prison where they get to take off their jumpsuits.

57:23And it's a really, really powerful documentary. Say Quentin did their first annual film festival in the prison where people brought outside content into the prison, but also prisoners made films that were shown at the festival. It was really powerful. And it was a spectacular day. That warden is really progressive. It's a really special place. But as I was leaving, there's like this big line on the ground. I don't remember whether it was yellow or white. It was kind of faded, you know, worn down. But as you're saying bye, you're saying bye to the prisoners and thank you. And they were giving you tours and showing you their artwork and just like so much love.

58:00And then I crossed over that line and and they can't. Like they can't cross over that line. And everybody's in like a good spirit and there's so much love, good vibes. It's a film festival. But one of them accidentally gets close to the line and one of the guards is like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. And on the way home, I was thinking, you know, when I woke up this morning, I wasn't grateful for the places I can go. I wasn't thinking about hugging my husband first thing in the morning. I wasn't thinking about my freedom and my liberty. But when you're faced with the possibility of not having it, the value skyrockets, right?

58:44I stepped over that line with this huge increased gratitude for my liberty, for my freedom, for my ability to go home and hug my husband, for my ability to listen to whatever music I want and wear whatever I want. Suddenly you get reminded of what to be grateful for. So I feel like that question is an invitation into that kind of gratitude. It's like, who knows where we'll be 10 years from now? But today there's some really good stuff happening. So don't let it slip by you. Yeah. Don't miss the moment. That's beautiful. That's some good advice from future Carrie. I got to get you out of here. Final question before I ask you, Carrie, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your healing journey.

59:26Oh, thank you. For the journey of allowing yourself to feel safe again, for allowing yourself to heal, for allowing yourself to have a beautiful relationship with your family, your extended family, your current family, and to allow yourself to really be a star in your life and create the career you want, but also create the privacy, the safety, and the love you want personally. So I acknowledge you for all of it. It's really cool to connect and get to meet you. And hopefully we'll get you back on in the future with the next big movie and stuff. But this is an amazing starting conversation. I'm so glad you were open and shared.

1:00:03and this is going to help heal a lot of people. So I appreciate you. I'm so grateful. And I just, I want to say, one of the things we say at Simpson Street is, you know, we believe that every single person is the lead character in the story of their lives. And so I love that you, with this work, I feel like you really encourage people to live that way. You encourage people to place themselves at the center of their journey and be the star of their own story. So thank you for that. Of course, yeah. My final question, what's your definition of greatness? Offering up the best of what you have moment to moment.

1:00:38Yeah. It's like if you're giving the best of what you have, then that's what today's greatness looks like. Kerry Washington, thank you so much. Thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much. Powerful. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts, share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well.

1:01:19Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve of you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.