LeBron James' Agent, Rich Paul on What It Takes To Stay On Top

0:00My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, or if you feel exhausted, or if you feel exhausted, you feel fulfilled. it and finished it already and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life, 10 years ago at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life, and the book I'm glad I have today for myself.

0:48Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com slash 2023 mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. In my environment, we weren't allowed to be vulnerable because I have to be mancho. I have to be tough. I can't be vulnerable. Right. And then when you talk about the pitfalls of the streets, you definitely can't be vulnerable because welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.

1:34And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

1:51Welcome back everyone at the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Rich Paul in the house. My man, so great to see you. Great to see you as well, my fellow Ohioan. Thanks for having me. I love this. I just want to do a quick little bio about you for people that don't know who you are, but Rich Paul, you started Clutch Sports Group, one of the most influential sports representation companies in the world. You represent some of the biggest pro athletes, and you've done billions in negotiated deals. Obviously, you work with LeBron James. You are UTA's head of sports, from what I read.

2:25You were also on the cover of Sports Illustrated. They called you the kingmaker, GQ, called you the power broker of the year and time, called your company, 100 of the Most Influential Companies. And it's amazing to watch your journey from behind the scenes as a fellow Ohioan watching these things over the last 10 plus years when I started to be aware of you. And I'm really grateful for how I've heard about your reputation. This is our first time meeting, but the way I've heard about you, the things I've seen about you and how you respect people and how you do business differently in the sports world, which is not about, I've heard you say this multiple times, it's not about the money.

3:06It's about the meaning behind the relationships. It's about the connections you create with people and valuing relationships first. And I really respect and appreciate that about you. And the story, the mythology goes, and LeBron James wrote the foreword to your book that you guys met in an airport. And he talked about, if I'm paraphrasing what he mentioned in your book, But he talked about how you gave him and you give people things that most people in your community don't do, which is giving people vulnerability, the ability to be vulnerable. And that's something I talk a lot about on the School of Greatness.

3:47And I think it's really the essence of connection, allowing for space for vulnerability. And I'm curious, how did you learn about vulnerability early on or did you not were you not a vulnerable child uh where did you learn that lesson and have you always kept it consistent you hit it right on the head i think in my environment we weren't allowed to be vulnerable right and so i had to learn

4:25that through emotion right and so it's kind of like wavelengths of the of humans right i can stand next to you and i can feel that that wavelength and i can feel that emotion through that wavelength and i can look in your eyes and understand that you and i have we share some of the same issues. We share some of the same interests. We share and oftentimes young, especially men, all men. And then when you break it down to young men in the black community, communication is one of the hardest things there is to do, right? Because I have to be mancho. I have to be tough. I can't be vulnerable. Right?

5:16And then when you talk about the pitfalls of the streets, you definitely can't be vulnerable because the mindset has to forget, but not really ever forgive. It's a difference. Most people say forgive and forget. But when you're in the streets, it's a different mentality. You have to forget in terms of not in its existence, but for that moment to get through. But you don't never really forgive. And so when I started to interact with people and be around people just in my community, I started to see a consistent behavior across the board of belittling people, you know, just being mean to someone just because that's what made people laugh.

6:15Right. Being cool or funny. Yeah. So you thought that, right? And what it was, I started to realize is these people are deflecting pain, right? They're deflecting that pain. Their body's a mirror. And when they look at themselves, they're looking in the mirror of themselves. All they see and all they feel is pain. And so their behavior causes them to deflect that. That's not who they really are. But they also don't know who they really are. And the person that they think they are, they're not happy with that person. But there's no therapist to talk to. There's no parental structure in place that I can, you know, bounce things off the wall with.

7:06um and so my mom was struggling with her addiction and I decided to take a different approach at a very young age and over time that consistent behavior allowed people to gravitate towards me right and what was that change that you had early on then I think the change was in conversation or in that playful, we called it ranking. In St. Louis, they called it joning. In other places, they called it different. Playing the dozens back in the day and older things. It got to a level to where people would start to say a hurtful thing or what they thought was hurtful to you. And it was hurtful in some aspects, but I processed it different.

7:57And so at a very young age, when you read inside the book, lucky me, I talk about I had to bottle this up and then I had to decide, OK, how am I going to react? And if more people in the world did this, there would be less people dead. There'd be less people in jail. There would be less, you know, it's just, and so as a young man, I'm sitting there and laying on the floor and I'm saying, okay, the next time this person says this, I'm going to have to do one of two things. Either I'm going to have to fight or one of three things, fight, walk away or figure out a way to where I don't exude violence, but I'm killing them with kindness.

8:46And then ultimately having the ability to to befriend that person, because I understand and help them understand that you and I are one in the same. Wow. Right. And so that's what I did. You know, when the guy said to me, that's why your mom smokes crack. My comment back to him was, yeah, but who looks as if their mom smoked crack, me or you? And so that caused the crowd to now have a different response. Zane. Yeah. Right. Wow. There's no fighting words. There's no, you know, no physicality. it's just a simple thing but then that caused me to also you know because everyone has observer observer's paradox social media today is observer's paradox at its highest form right kids are reacting based upon a social media response and feels as if i have to kill this person now because they embarrass me and everybody's seen it but it means you get into altercation and we're the only one that know about the altercation you have your story i have mine no one else seen seen it it's only based upon the the crowd of people around to where you and there's been so many instances like that growing up and it's inside this book of lucky me that i had to navigate through to get to the point that i am today so this was a learned behavior I mean, emotional intelligence, I feel like, is one of the most powerful things that any leader or entrepreneur or agent could have to truly be successful for the long term.

10:25You've seen, I've seen a lot of people, you know, make money or build a business or become successful in something, but fall quickly without emotional intelligence. What do you feel like is the biggest skill you've learned in the last decade? Plus, it's 11 years of Clutch Sports Group now. I think it's 11. In the last decade, what are the biggest skill you've learned to take your leadership skills to the next level, to take your connection to the next level that has allowed your business to grow so much? I think it starts with not sitting your success. You can't sit there. I think the next thing I would say would be be a willing listener.

11:07because it's important to listen to the people that's helping you get there. Also, third would be know what you don't know. One of the first things I did was I went and I got a guy who was very helpful to me named Mark Termini. And Mark Termini was an agent prior to. never had the success that I had as an agent but also focus on something very specific and the one thing I knew that people would say about me was that I lacked I lacked a negotiation experience really right and because they would just need something to say and so that was one of the first things I did. And then I would say, so know what you don't know.

12:01And then the fourth thing I would say is be willing to invest in others. What does that look like for you? I have people that's in my company that came off the street pretty much. You know, there wasn't, they didn't need a resume prior to. I believe in our platform. I believe in our infrastructure. I believe in our brand. I believe in our culture. So anyone that's coming in, the first thing you need to be willing to be is a teammate, a good teammate. You can start there. Everything else, you can be developed, just like a basketball player, just like a football player. If you're a receiver, understanding how to run routes.

12:48If you're a basketball player, understanding what you need to work on, coming off a pick and roll, coming off a screen, reading the pick and roll, throwing the pocket pass or seeing the man in the corner, those different reads, it's the same thing in our business. But if you fall in love with the headlines, if you fall in love with what's in it for me, and this is what most athletes do, and then most people around the athlete, they're not helping them make the best decisions because it's on the basis of what's in it for them. So now in the sports business, you get this pyramid of entitlement or this infrastructure of entitlement around the athlete and it stunts their growth.

13:30I'm curious about this because I want to make sure I get the story right. So correct me if I'm wrong. But you met LeBron early on at an airport. Yes. In Akron. And then, but you didn't start your agency until. 2012. 12. You know, was that a decade later or 12 years later or something? 10 years later. 10 years later, right? Yeah. So you became friends with LeBron 10 years before you launched your business, but you decide not to launch a business sooner than that. You wait a decade, even though you potentially could have launched something with him or around him or in connection to him sooner. Correct me if I'm wrong.

14:11Probably not. Okay. I think if I would have tried to do that then, it would have failed. And I think that's what people have to understand. I wasn't able to feel that entitlement because I was next to him. Nor did I want to. You have to allow things to evolve. And people count the years, but don't count the years. you have to count the minutes within the hour the hour within the day the day within the week and the weeks within the months and then the months within the year and then the years you get what i'm saying and so for me i was already somebody when we met i was what people would deem to be the lebron of my neighborhood really already why is that you know because i was the i was i was the chosen one no pun intended you know um and through all my journeys you know all my my ups and downs the roller coaster of life everything i did the good bad and the ugly i did it best in class interesting right and so you were the go-to guy in your neighborhood yeah for sure um and everyone knew that right it was like a secret thing but everyone knew that but i was also the for when i say the go-to guy not just for bad things i'm talking about for like right i help kids with their homework if i see them doing math sure sure you know just my friend has a child early and don't really know how to handle it so we talk about it right um i was the young man coming home from school and i'm seeing my brother or his older siblings, I mean, his older friends, and, you know, his friends are doing something, and I'm talking to, you know, my brother and I just had this conversation the other day, and my brother is somebody that I really respect wholeheartedly, and I appreciate him because he sacrificed a lot for me, a whole lot, and was willing to do anything to make sure that I was successful wow right and so when you that's why the title was lucky me there's so many different components to the luck the average person in america would think oh of course you're lucky you met lebron and you went on to do this and you wouldn't be able to get in these rooms if it wasn't for lebron blah blah blah and they're partly correct as it pertains to yes i did meet LeBron prior to him becoming LeBron but I also had the ability to understand my position and my role at that time.

17:04Roles change. There's a chapter in the book there's a rule in the book that's called star in your role. Star in your role. There's a rule in the book right and when you think about the evolution of a person and you think about the evolution of positioning allow yourself to be a part of that evolution by managing the transitions within like you said we first started lebron didn't need what does he need he's a rookie right his exact words to me when i was hired is i had nothing for you to do right i already got my contract title yeah i don't have anything for you to do and at that time I didn't want to I wasn't looking to be an agent you weren't no not at that time so you're what 22 22 22 yeah at that time you know I'm looking to make it out of the ghetto I'm looking to be on the side of the mountain that there are no sirens there are no uh no deaths at young ages there are no every time I get in my car I have to look in my rearview mirror to see if it's the police, if it's the jackers and robbers, whoever it may be, if it's a rival, whatever the case may be, people don't understand how much pressure you grow up under in the black community.

18:31And I say black community predominantly, but today it's in these minority poverty stricken communities there was no such thing as uh

18:46planning ahead survival mode yeah and and people and i i think sometimes people get it misconstrued because it's like well you have a choice well we're this is the this is the this is the school of greatness, right? But you take this young kid growing up in Cleveland, Ohio, who has the same capabilities of any student at the Stanford Business School, at the Harvard Business School. Now, I said capabilities, but the opportunities aren't there. and that's the difference my brain works just as good as anybody's in the world but if i'm sitting in sanitation then how do you expect me to evolve because i'm dealing with two things i'm dealing with the lack thereof opportunity and the lack thereof discovery to even obtain an opportunity right so this is some deep stuff if you want to get into it and so when you read the book these are all the things i'm explaining to you despite all of this i've been able to land across from lewis right and we're having this conversation but when we when when when LeBron was first drafted I'm a part of the crew right at that moment I could be totally satisfied and I get to hang and going here we go in there it's this is that it's bright lights things is pop and so on and so forth but you got to remember that's not who I am right and you'll see from the first chapter I'm a natural-born hustler right you weren't just trying to latch on or just hang out and just get that's nowhere yeah you were trying to you're your chosen one in your own right I'm trying to live mm-hmm I'm trying to survive like you said you sold your company you had enough money to last you a couple years.

21:12Well, I also had enough money to last me a couple years and then some based upon my lifestyle at that moment. The thing I was able to give him was, like he said, we would have these conversations and through my dialogue, he understood that I understood him and there was no judgment. Wow. At the time, I mean, growing up in Ohio, LeBron was well-known in Ohio. I think he was 14 or 15 at that point. But then it was like 16. It was like, oh, national race. Exactly. Now he's starting. Who's this high school kid? Are people that show up to this game? Now it's on TV? Yeah. So I remember growing up being like, oh, LeBron, because it was Maurice Claret, and then LeBron, right?

22:04Well, if you really think about it, and if you talk to Maurice Claret, I used to talk to Maurice Caret when he was incarcerated. Uh-huh. I would send Maurice Caret money to his girl that he had called me when he was incarcerated. Maurice Caret was a great guy. I went down to Maurice Caret's mom's house. She had a townhouse down in Columbus. When that happened to Reese, it was just upsetting. But you got to remember, think about the pressure. He is trying to align himself with LeBron because LeBron can go right out of high school. why can't I do why do I have to play here for you understand what I'm saying and in a lot of ways he was not wrong in a lot of ways he was not wrong but at the same time here's where that understanding and with no social media back then it was very little player empowerment no NIL back then no NIL back then everyone's monetizing off of him except for him exactly And so now you have this frustrated young man, and rightfully so.

23:13Now, we understand why the limit is what it is. I actually think it should be a year less. But we understand it because of the physicality of the game and things like that. But that's not the only reason. Now there's NIL, so you can, you know, you... Can develop more, make money, and encourage a little more. Yeah, but we have to fix that too. Because NIL is broken. right it's fixed on the front end but it's broken on the back end right right and so but it was only LeBron and I mean they were both from Ohio I mean it was unbelievable it was an unbelievable time in sports it was unreal I remember being so proud of being from Ohio and big Ohio State fan and just like this is amazing huge Ohio State huge man it's like I was at the Michigan Ohio State game last year it was so sad to watch them lose but but seeing Maurice and then LeBron like take over the country was so inspiring to watch and I can only imagine that social media oh my gosh I can only imagine the pressure both those guys had a ton of pressure 16 17 19 a ton of pressure and trying to break all these rules and I mean in a good way breaking the different rules of sports and business and all these things trying to do new things trying to put build their brands in certain ways but just the pressure of everyone wanting something from them and everyone trying to put them in a box at the same time all these different things but you were able to be there for lebron and it sounds like maurice i didn't know this as well in ways that others weren't you were able to give you know console you're able to be vulnerable with them is what it sounds like to me yeah and and again i think that when you look at the dynamic we all were pretty mild-mannered right we were all raised a certain way whether it didn't matter what we didn't have we were raised a certain way so that foundation as a human being and its character mattered.

25:21So when we started to push forward, I think the one thing that he knew was, I don't have anybody around me that's going to make a decision for them. I mean, he's seen it. It's very clear. And the one thing that I knew was, this isn't my brother. this isn't my you know it's just like when i was in my neighborhood you get you know whether you're in the streets doing what you do whether you're running with people that yeah that can cost you your life or freedom etc get one time and for me it was the same thing like i had zero entitlement And so I also had zero ego because I know who I am and I know my capabilities are.

26:12So I don't mind doing the the the groundwork people would think would be the grunt work. It's not really grunt work, though. It's what shapes you and mold you. I worked in my dad's store from 6 a.m. starting at 6 a.m. my dad never took a holiday there was no such thing as thanksgiving and christmas and stores clothes and it's like you gotta make money we're open 24 7 365 rain sleet hell or snow school's out we're open you know it's a blizzard we're open you know it's like all those things and so watching i had the best example in front of me hence why i'm so lucky i learned math and marketing from cash register and products within the store and how people bought it I learned customer service dealing with people I'm dealing with all types of people older men and women younger men and women drunks you know drug addicts to you know people who work in jobs teachers mechanics everything and so I had this world around me and I'm this young kid that my dad is thrown into the fire with an expectation of you know what to do and what not to do and that's how we live wow and so it wasn't i didn't grow up in a in a world where my dad had to say something more than once you heard it you did it you heard it you did it hey being back here at such time there was no iphone you know there was no face time yeah but you're on time yeah you're there but the thing is you know i would think that most 21 22 year olds today if they met some up-and-coming influencer on social media or some superstar or whatever and they became friends with them i would think that most of them would be thinking how do i get the most from this person maybe i'm wrong maybe people aren't thinking that way but i would think okay i'm in the friend group i'm in a circle i'm i'm getting i'm building relationship what can i do to to build with this person and monetize or financially grow as well but it sounds like you just said i just want to be here as a friend and contribute and add value i got my own thing and i'm not trying to monetize anything right now That wasn't something that was on your mind.

28:44Well, the thing was is my own thing came on the back of dead or in jail. So I don't even want that. But what I have is what's the opportunity cost of me not staying in the fray? And, you know, we're boys. We're friends. We're enjoying it, you know. sometimes people just need support without you gouging to try to get something all the time right? Sometimes it's okay for the athlete to be able to just do for themselves and not have to do for everybody else and not feel entitled to have to support everybody else see there's only in the black community where that, I'm not going to say only majority of this transpires transpires within the black community because if one person make it then nobody else is really doing anything right and so now your mentality becomes what oh i'm good i'm good well no no no he's good right We have the ability to be okay, given that we value him to the point to where we're not going to do anything detrimental to his career.

30:14Right. And while doing so, hopefully we make relationships that allows us to then detach ourselves from this person and know I'm not going to get rich. But what I am going to do is get in position. And if I can get in position and I value that position, then I can manage the transition. Wow. And if I manage that transition and I'm able to evolve, then I can do what? Become repositioned. Interesting. And that's how my mind worked. My mind didn't work. Let me jump in front and let me show my song and dance. That's not what I'm into. And the only reason why I was able to think that way is because of this silly line that I was raised up on.

31:10The average person can't get here and think that way. It just doesn't work like that. And even today, right now today, I talk to young men and women all the time. I talk to young people trying to start companies and next to athletes. And you know what they're saying consistently? The bag, the bag, the bag. It's all about the bag, the bag. well there's a lot of bags with a hole in the bottom of it right and your guy that you're standing next to is only going to be able to do what they do for the next 10 to 12 years max you got to hope they last that long very few is going to get to year 21 you can forget that and so very few make it past 2 or 3 years this is my point and so what i try to explain to them is no you're looking at this all wrong don't use your position next to the player to gouge and get the most for you use your position next to the player to evaluate and understand where you can fit in and when you get to there when you get there then try to continue to add value so that you can stay there man this is the most important thing i think people need to hear right now and it's about starring in your role you have to starring and your role may evolve over time and whatever it will evolve it will and it yeah but if you but but if i'm a role player and i jump out and i try to the coach didn't call the play you come out the huddle and you doing your thing that's not what the coach drew up right right you have to understand the importance of executing out of a timeout that is what separate great coaches from good coaches from bad coaches it's not the full 48 minutes of the game because half the time they're not even coaching right well you have the top talent but what do you do after a timeout it's the same way in life if i see something transpire right let me go in readjust draw up a different play and then i come out of that time out it's important for me to execute right that's in the relationship that's in a personal business that's in planning that's in anything you do in life but these young people today between social media and the bag they're called no man's land.

34:00And you know what happened when you caught no man's land. What happened? It's a back door cut and layup. Yes. You know. You get beat. You get beat. When you play the game. This is fascinating though though because I mean I remember watching the I think it was the documentary or it was a series More Than An Athlete. Yeah. With you and Maverick you know and who's one other guy in that right? Randy. Randy yes. but it just seems like you guys had a level of wisdom and forward thinking that most don't in that type of dynamics in relationship when you have a friend family member whoever that you're close to who is making it when i think about you know mike vick and this you know his friends kind of taking from him and what happened there and think about someone like tyson who had to learn his lessons from giving money to people that weren't adding value and certain things like that most people seems like they're trying to get without adding value or knowing their role yes but you and maverick you guys were like no we're just going to be friends and help our friend make it and know our role you know why because we also would challenge each other really oh yeah and that's the thing i think that

35:18made it become what it has become today because there was no such thing as us being in a room and happened to be and just shut up that didn't exist right that didn't i mean we had challenging times amongst each other for the right reason we

35:44We inspired and motivated each other for the right reason. We listened to each other for the right reason. And when you think about all these things, I remember it plain as day. When we first started LRMR, there was a conversation, well, who's going to lead it? There was no certain qualifications from nobody to be able to lead it. but this decision made the most sense and so that's what we're going with and at that time the decision was for maverick to lead it which is fine that made the most sense great did that that hurt your ego or are you trying to push and say i should lead this no not at all right because you don't push you support so now when it was my time and my because again the only one that ever had a real opportunity was i mean not a real opportunity out the gate was lebron lebron and then randy who was you know right right so randy had a job to get a job 24 7 365 right and you guys didn't have jobs from lebron he was like no you're my boys yeah well hey yeah i want you guys to hang out with me but that also didn't feel good for us either because you're like we don't just hang out Right, we wanted to make sure that we came up with things to where LeBron supported, but we didn't necessarily want to be totally dependent.

37:19Right. You understand what I'm saying? And it's a different time now. And the problem is, and I used to not say this, but today everyone wants to duplicate that and you can't do it. What is it? Tell me why. Duplicate. Because number one, timing. Timing is so important. Timing is so important. Number two, the stars have to align. They just do. Number three, those people, if you come with the entitlement, then you better come with the capabilities. Better back it up. You have to come with the capabilities and it has to be a two way street. The athlete and the supporting cast have to be aligned. That athlete has to be able to become a business.

38:17Most athletes aren't businesses. They're just talent. They're getting a talent fee. Very few athletes actually become businesses. but to most people around the athlete what do you mean he's not that is he is but he make he makes a lot of money yes he makes a lot of money but that doesn't make him a business to where you can make a lot of money yes his contract his marketing deal is in the llc he's a walking corporation he is. But for that walking corporation to have an infrastructure to where the CEO and the CMO and the CFO and this and that can actually make money, that don't exist. Yeah. And if he gets injured or gets cut or doesn't perform, there's no more money coming in.

39:06Right. But it just doesn't exist. And the problem is everyone thinks that because this person makes a lot of money, that they should be making a lot of money without a business to support you making a lot of money. And without contributing or adding value. Just being someone's friend doesn't mean they should pay you. No. But again, if they chose to do that, great. For the moment, not forever. Right. Because when you talk about evolution, this person has to evolve too. Today they can hang out with the boys and play the video game all day and it's all good. What happens when they get a girl? Now you upset.

39:44What happens when you get a family? What happens when you get married? You know, these are all things that myself and Maverick, we were thinking about this. Wow. In our apartment that we shared, that we flipped a coin for who got the master bedroom or not. Really? Right. And I had already was, I was a homeowner when I did this. Really? What city was this in? Cleveland. Cleveland, yeah. But it was important to be there and to be present and have these conversations because, again, nobody thought we would be in the position that we're in today. nobody thought that I would be standing here in front of you today you read off that list nobody thought that right the NBA world didn't think it the Asian world definitely didn't think that is the NBA world right society didn't think that yeah who are you you're just this 22 year old yeah right and and that's why some of the articles that came forth what what they were but I didn't use that to exude the hate back.

40:42Those articles is just like the kids saying that your mom smoked crack. Interesting. Okay, great. I'll digest that and we move on. I'll use that for fuel to keep driving my journey. Right. Got to keep driving your journey. Wow, man, this is fascinating. But I mean, again, for you to know timing and to be living in Cleveland during that time, just to be close and to be available in essentially a supporting role at that time, right? A supporting role, but not scared to speak the truth. Wow. Did you ever get pushed back? Yeah, but there was no such thing as being late to something. Or there was no such thing as, oh, we're going to do this just for the sake of doing it.

41:36There was no such thing as we're going to close the club down. There was no such thing. Like, we had things within our inner circle to where this is what it was, and this is non-negotiable. Wow. Really? And we respected each other to know that. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So you guys really thought about this like a business, even though it wasn't at that time, it sounds like we got to show up on time. We got to make sure we're being responsible. Yeah, and everybody followed the lead. When you think about it, when you think about the impact and influence that not just us, that LeBron, but also us, has had on the entire ecosystem of sport.

42:20You know, there's a famous, there's a line in a Jay-Z record called I Did It My Way. It's a Frank Sinatra song. song but it was a sample but he says we came in this game you know demanding our respect you know like that's what it was and people seen that as our peers seen that as who they think they are type of thing and you know it's all the chitter-chatter and etc and society seen it as the entourage that's gonna fail right and so you're hearing all this but the reality of it was we just really wanted to support somebody and also being independent enough to where we maintain a relationship from a place of truth and never put anybody in harm's way to benefit for yourself.